Michael Feinberg (5:27)

Well, I think people, they've been quick to use the polygraphs in ways the bureau hasn't before, of course, Mike Feinberg can tell you, of course, he went through a poly when he joined the Bureau and he probably went through several five year polys to renew his top secret security clearance to ensure that, you know, he was being loyal to his country. But here we have an instance where, where, you know, they are using. They've deployed the poly to sort of suss out whether people are. Are gossiping essentially about what's going on in the, in the FBI, about HR moves. Right. And about cash wanting a gun when he's not an agen. We have been told dozens of people have been pollied and this is really stoking a culture of fear and intimidation inside in the Bureau in ways that I haven't seen before, by the way. Normally I think there were people who wouldn't talk to me, but because of what is happening, they feel the need to reach out, which for me is an extraordinary thing.

Nicole Wallace (6:30)

Say more about that, Adam.

Michael Feinberg (6:35)

I think people are very concerned about the future of the FBI, where it's headed and moves that are going on inside. And, you know, these people traditionally are not media friendly. They're taught not to. Well, first of all, you're taught not to be media friendly at the FBI. So for them to reach out and talk to me is unusual and I think underscores the alarm inside the Bureau's halls. And I will note that the turnover you referenced, about 40%. You know, I started keeping a spreadsheet of the top eight at every field office, the 55 field offices. I kept, you know, I recorded the names of who was in charge before January 20, anticipating they were going to do exactly what they said they were going to do. And they have.

Nicole Wallace (7:29)

Michael, jump in on this and tell remind us the circumstances around which you were going to be subjected to polygraph. That had nothing to do with your renewal of security clearances.

Sue Gordon (7:44)

No, I was not due for a security clearance renewal for quite some time. And I was never, at any point in the past few months, actually at any point in my entire career, ever accused of violating a policy or procedure, creating some sort of investigative deficiency, or even transgressing against some sort of internal FBI cultural norm. The sole reason I was going to be subjected to a polygraph test was that I'm a social acquaintance, a friend of Pete Strzok, who, as we all know, this administration considers a political enemy.

Nicole Wallace (8:25)

Michael, talk about what it does to the culture to start polygraphing senior members of, of the workforce and senior leaders of field offices out of suspicion of unflattering and I guess in the case of the gun true news accounts, it.

Sue Gordon (8:45)

Creates a culture that fundamentally undermines the ability of the FBI to do its own job. We are working in very controversial, dangerous and fast moving situations, whether you're on the criminal enforcement side of the house or, or whether you're dealing with national security threats. And in order to do that, you have to be able to trust that you can have candid conversations with your bosses, including individuals like Bongino and Patel. And you have to have a certain amount of comfort that they trust you too. If you are going to bring them bad news, if you're going to bring them hard facts, you need to know that they're going to listen. And if somebody is polygraphing you because of suspected political transgressions or because you've made fun of them, which by the way, is not against an FBI policy, the communication is going to naturally be stimmied and facts that management needs to hear are going to fall through the cracks.

Nicole Wallace (9:52)

I mean, let me just play some of Dan Bongino as a podcaster because I imagine the universe of people who've made fun of some of the things these guys said and their past life is massive. Let me just play this. People can decide for themselves.

Dan Bongino (10:07)

Ladies and gentlemen, the FBI is an absolute disaster. It is an abomination to the country. The corruption needs to be immediately defunded. The FBI should not, no, no longer exist as it's constituted now. The mission should be divvied up. The money should be divvied up amongst other agencies that take the road to the country.

Nicole Wallace (10:26)

Seriously.

Dan Bongino (10:27)

We fire everyone who stood by. We don't just fire the people who did this. Everyone who stood by and did nothing while the Department of Justice and the.

Michael Feinberg (10:40)

FBI been ravaged, ravaged by corruptocrats.

Dan Bongino (10:42)

Everyone gets fired.

Irwin Redlener (10:44)

Everyone.

Dan Bongino (10:45)

If you stood by and did nothing, that's.

Nicole Wallace (10:47)

How can I hit pause at this point and say, is there anyone at the FBI that wouldn't feel proud about their agency and be offended by a guy who craps all over the bureau and its legacy and its mission and its fealty to the country? I mean, who. I don't, I don't, I'm not even sure I understand what the polygraph is meant to suss out. Adam Goldman.

Michael Feinberg (11:15)

Well, you know, it appears that the polygraph is meant to suss out who, obviously who might be talking about, you know, internal discussions. And I would, I would, I would note these discussions aren't even related to national security information. Right. Or classified information. Right. So they're taking aggressive steps in matters that don't even affect national security. You know, the one thing that, the one thing that's also happened, I think Mike, Mike could be a possible victim of this is a snitching culture, right. That somebody went to the seventh floor of the FBI, maybe Bongino, and said, Mike is friends with Pete Strzok, and it's happened. This is not the only case this has happened. Right. And so, you know, being able to have frank discussions, but you're worried about people literally snitching inside the FBI. I think that's, that's deeply alarming to people and it's not clear where it's going. You know, you, you, you talked about, you, you just aired what, those comments, those corrosive comments that Bongino has made about the FBI. But Bongino spent years eroding trust in the FBI. Years. Right. Giving his listeners what they wanted and, and, and eroding trust, the public's trust in the FBI. And now he's back and he wants us to believe, or he wants the public to believe that they're there, that, that, that this corruption is gone. And I think it's done significant harm to the Bureau's reputation and the way people perceive the Bureau, in my opinion and the people I've talked to.

Nicole Wallace (13:01)

Michael, you want to respond to that?

Sue Gordon (13:05)

Yeah. There's a couple things I would say. The first is you mentioned who at the FBI has not at some point made fun of a boss. I'll just say this. I worked in three different field offices during my time at the FBI and multiple different sections and units at FBI headquarters in different capacities. And I still talk to people from all those different places. I literally do not know a single agent who has not at some point made fun of Patel and Bongino. And I bring that up not just to pour salt in whatever wounds they have, but because it speaks largely to Adam's point, which is these are two individuals who spent the four years of the Biden administration and much of the first Trump administration doing everything they could to tear down the credibility and the reputation of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. So the fact that they're surprised or acting hurt in some fashion, that people did not welcome them with open arms, speaks more to their own emotional maturity and lack of self awareness than it does to anything going on in the FBI's culture.

Nicole Wallace (14:26)

Let me deal with what they've created as well. I mean, there is instability now at the highest ranks of the FBI. And I'm not someone who used to think that Laura Loomer was something I had to follow to cover Trump as president. But she clearly has a lot of sway with Trump when it comes to key national security posts. She has posted today that Dan Bongino might quit over the Epstein debacle. And Adam, I know you've been tracking this as well. Todd Blanche has tweeted. No, no, no. Basically grabbing them and throwing them into whatever sinking ship he's on, saying Bongino and Cash Patel were instrumental in helping us make. Make the decisions we made about the Epstein files. Just talk about what's going on over the Epstein debacle at the Department of Justice and the FBI today, Adam.

Michael Feinberg (15:17)

Well, let's just provide your listeners some context. Bongino himself has been pouring gasoline on this conspiracy, the Epstein conspiracy, for years, right? For years. I mean, there's a whole host of influencers out there who've led the country to believe that there's some secret list of people that, you know, the deep state, the DOJ and the FBI are somehow suppressant, right? And then, and then, of course, you know, Cash is confirmed, but, you know, Bongino is picked by the President and, you know, and Bondi's there. And suddenly they find themselves confronted with facts, right? Facts that are different than what they said for years on, you know, their podcasts and on television. And they're trouble. They're having trouble grappling would be facts. And more importantly, this army of people who have come to believe them for whatever reason, right, are also having trouble grappling with the blacks. And this is blowing up in their face, right? It's literally blowing up in their face. And, you know, prominent right wing influencers are, you know, are calling for their heads. And, and now, Cat, you know, now Bongino, you know, according to our own reporting, you know, has blamed, you know, Bondi for overhyping this when she, you know, invited a bunch of influencers to the White House to, to give them folders that literally said nothing, right? So this is literally blowing up in their faces. But the more important question is why are they even talking about this? They shouldn't even be talking about this. I think Mike would tell you the FBI doesn't talk about cases. The FBI talks about cases through criminal complaints and indictments. That's how they talk through the courts, right? They present the evidence and they talk to the courts, but they've been talking about these cases and leading the public to believe that there's, you know, at least part of the public to believe that there's Something there. And now. And now there's a crisis in 2025 about the Epstein files. And. And in particular, Bondi, according to our reporting, is quite upset with Bongino. She's accused him of leaking to the media. Right, and how ironic is that? Because that was the origins of Andy McCabe's demise. Right? He spoke to the Wall Street Journal about something and that was ultimately used using an investigation against him. And here's Bongino himself now being accused of. Of leaking to the media by the Attorney General of the United States. And of course, it makes me wonder, are they going to polygraph Bongino?

Nicole Wallace (17:52)

I was wondering the same thing. I mean, Michael, what do you. Let me deal with the Epstein, by the way? He's denied it, but I mean, if you're using it against agents to find out if they're loyal to you, why wouldn't Pam Bondi use it against the directors of the FBI to find out if they've fallen in line behind her? I mean, what are the facts about the Epstein files, Michael, as you understand them?

Sue Gordon (18:22)

So, look, Epstein was an inhuman monster who got away with what he did for far too long. But eventually he was investigated, he was arrested, he took his own life. As far as I know, that's it. That's the end of the story. For the FBI to be commenting on conspiracy theories about a long closed case for which there are no actual articulable facts or predication to keep matters going is pretty unheard of. The only other case I'm aware of which has gotten similar treatment is Crossfire Hurricane, which, despite being examined by an IG which, while it found errors, did not find bias in the opening of the investigation, despite a Senate committee chaired by Marco Rubio agreeing with the fact that Russia was trying to. To interfere in our elections, and despite the fact that most of the subjects looked at in the various Russia investigations were convicted or pled guilty, Bongino and Patel have still been flogging this dead horse for the entire time they have been in the public eye. There is an unwillingness to let things go once they've been resolved and finished. That, just as so many other things the FBI is doing right now is drawing resources and attention away from its core missions.

Nicole Wallace (19:59)

You know, and it's all sick and stupid until something happens to this country, and then everybody, everybody will miss an FBI that is functional and focused. I mean, it's incredible reporting, Adam, and we're so lucky to get to talk to you, Michael. But the real tragedy of it is that when something happens. It doesn't matter if you've been titillated by the stupid, bogus conspiracy theories or not. We're all, we're all screwed when the FBI doesn't work. So thank you guys for your sober analysis today and for starting us off. When we come back, the dangerous game the Trump administration is playing with the FBI and our country's intelligence agencies as well. From politically motivated investigations into its former leaders to launching witch hunts and filling agencies only with loyalists and rooting out people they suspect not being loyal with polygraphs, there's no one more important that we want to hear from today. And former intelligence chief Sue Gordon, she'll join us next. Also had Donald Trump in Texas today for a firsthand look at the devastation from the catastrophic flooding there. His new reporting shows he may be rethinking his campaign promises to get rid of fema. And later in the broadcast, right wing voters remorse the MAGA morning. After, we'll have much more on the very public breakup underway between key figures in MAGA world and Donald Trump over his increasingly unpopular second term. All those stories and more when Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. We all belong outside. We're drawn to nature. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to or the succulent that adorn our homes, nature makes all of our lives, well, better. Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from it. But the outdoors is closer than we realize. With alltrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on trail navigation. Download the free app today. Want to pull off the season's freshest trends? You just need the right shoes. That's where designer shoe warehouse comes in.

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Nicole Wallace (23:09)

These are anxious and uncertain times for the US intelligence community and the men and women who work there, with Donald Trump's dramatic escalation today and all week long of fatigued and futile quest for political revenge, as well as politicization and fealty across government institutions. We learned about his new CIA director, John Ratcliffe, trying to rewrite history from within, criticizing exactly how his predecessor, John Brennan, handled an assessment, even though that has been investigated for years and years and years now, including by key figures in MAGA world, but not without disputing its conclusions that Russia interfered in the 2016 election, and without concluding that any intelligence officials manipulated any findings at any point in any of this. We also learned this week that the Justice Department has launched criminal investigations into both sides, John Brennan and Trump's former Director of the FBI, Jim Comey. That's despite years and years and years and millions and millions of dollars of exhaustive investigations into both men spent in some corners by Trump's own closest political allies, people like Marco Rubio. Those probes turning up zero evidence of wrongdoing. There's also this from the Washington Post on what Trump's Director of National Intelligence is doing with her own agency. Quote, a special team created by Tulsi Gabbard has expressed a desire to gain access to emails and chat logs of the largest US Spy agencies with the aim of using artificial intelligence tools to ferret out what the administration deems as efforts to undermine its agenda, according to several people familiar with the matter. Joining our coverage, former Principal Deputy Director of National Intelligence, Sue Corden. Sue, it's so nice to get to talk to you about all of this. Just tell me.

Mitch Landrieu (24:59)

Although I hate the topic, though I hate the topic.

Nicole Wallace (25:02)

I know. I wanted to ask you first to give voice to what it must be like for the men and women of the FBI, of the CIA, in the instance of the Ratcliffe Note, to be asked to provide a report on John Brennan after John BRENNAN and the CIA's conduct was investigated by the Senate Intelligence Committee, exhaustively by John Durham. I learned this week that John Brennan spending eight hours talking to John Durham himself, who examined the CIA assessment. What must it be like for the workforce to be asked to do this work this year for this director?

Mitch Landrieu (25:49)

I don't think I can adequately express what it feels like to devote your life to service to your country. And in the particular case of intelligence in the CIA, you do so knowing that none of your successes are going to be public. You're not going to be able to defend yourself. And yet every Single day you go in for the sole purpose of trying to keep America safe. And it's not that there aren't mistakes, and there aren't. It's not that every person is perfect. But the premise is so flawed, not only for the CIA, but for the FBI and the national security community, that these humans that swear an oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States are somehow being cast as being anti American. It is such a destructive force for the people that work there, and yet they still come in. But the real destruction is what's happening to the American public who are being told that they cannot believe in their country. It's madness. It's damaging. And in my experience, it is wholly untrue. It's not that there aren't some bums. There's Aldra James, there's Edward Snowden, there's Robert Hansen. We find them, we get them out. But this idea that these people are anti American is just heartbreaking. I can't think of a different word I will say on this note. And I think the people that were asked to do this task with the obvious intent of finding wrongdoing, which is antithetical to the craft of intelligence, to go into a task trying to find something, actually acquitted themselves really well. The note itself is what we always do. We examine our tradecraft, because analysis always involves uncertainty. And so we examine the work we've done to make sure that it was to our standards. These people examined the work and found that the conclusion that Russia interfered in the election. And remember, this was not an assessment about Donald Trump. This was an assessment about Russia attacking our country. And they found that the results were defensible and credible. I would love to spend some time with you to talk about the arcanity of whether the word aspired was based on inference or actual evidence. But I'm telling you that what they found was there were procedural things that they might have quibbled with, with the benefit of hindsight, but even with the task, they found that it was valid. I can't explain Director Radcliffe's either referral or commentary, but I'm actually kind of proud of. Of those officers in this condition.

Nicole Wallace (29:12)

Well, what do you think they felt, though, when. I mean. So we should just remind our viewers that what the analysts found was that the assessment was correct. And then there were some thoughts about the process, as you just said, but that's not what John Ratcliffe, their boss, tweeted or posted about their eight page document and their work. What does that feel like for an intelligence professional?

Mitch Landrieu (29:37)

It feels like.

Nicole Wallace (29:42)

Well.

Mitch Landrieu (29:45)

For the longest time, the strength of the agency was always in the women and men and the leaders who took it over were stewards of that legacy and that responsibility. And that's what made it whole. To now have someone who appears. And again, I have no idea why he would write that because it could not follow from that note. But what it feels like is, what are we doing here? What's he doing? Are we both doing the same job? Or are we being used to support an agenda which, again, in the craft of intelligence, is particularly antithetical to their tradecraft? And it's. And Nicole, it's each one of the stories that you brought up is the same thing. And that you have a leader coming in with this mindset that their workforce is worse than bad is actually anti the nation that they swear to serve. They know they're not, but their boss comes in. It's just devastating.

Nicole Wallace (30:59)

It's devastating. The people, to your point, that pay the price for the triumph of lies and conspiracy theories over truth are all of us, the American people. We now have an FBI that is significantly weaker. Its leaders, its deputy director didn't come to work today because he's mad, according to Laura Loomer's posts on social media about the way Pam Bondi, the country's only Attorney general, elections have consequences. We don't have a backup group of national security officials. This is it. It's embarrassing to ask you, Sue Gordon, about Jeffrey Epstein, but what do you think about the conspiracy theories being peddled by Tucker Carlson about the fact that the only explanations for the fact that they haven't released the Epstein files are that either one, they involve Donald Trump, or two, we're covering up for other countries intelligence agencies. I mean, they've now pulled in the men and women of the intelligence community who, as you said, when they lose their lives in the line of duty, they don't have streets named after them. They have stars without their names put on a wal in a building that most people never walk into. They're now being smeared by the likes of Tucker Carlson, who says that, ah, maybe they're the reason the files haven't been released.

Mitch Landrieu (32:16)

This preponderance of conspiracy theories as though instead of doing the nation's work, bunches of people are sitting around trying to achieve some subversive objective for personal Is ridiculous. It's ridiculous. And the reason they don't come out, the reason the congressional hearings don't reveal anything, the reason things aren't released is because people with the theory go in and they try and find the evidence and they simply cannot. That they continue to be willing to suggest that there's some evidence that not yet found is absurd, but it just doesn't work that way. And the thing that frustrates me the most is it is ghost chasing that we're doing is keeping us from doing the work of the nation. And what you have now, do you know why we don't have 90 deals in 90 days? Because we don't have competent leadership. We don't have competent leadership in the organizations, in the State Department, in the trade, representative, in Commerce, in Treasury to be able to lead the effort of a workforce that has been decimated to do it. This is real work. The president can say what he wants to have happen, but he doesn't do the work. How is that work getting done? How is the work getting done at fema? How is the intelligence community being recrafted to work in a world where you must be who you are? We're wasting our time with these destruction of our institutions and the payment is going to be by the American people who are not going to get the services we do. I've come on here a lot and we've got to change the dialogue. America has real issues. The government isn't good enough. It's not fast enough. It costs too much. It doesn't provide the services, but it isn't malfeasant. We have real things we need to work on. The problem with America is not a corrupt government. The problem is America is we have a lot of issues that aren't being addressed because we want sound bites rather than real effort to pin disloyalty.

Nicole Wallace (34:47)

On.

Mitch Landrieu (34:48)

In my estimation, the most loyal Americans. I can't think of another word than heartbreaking. And that they continue to come to Nicole. People apply. They want to work there.

Nicole Wallace (35:02)

Why?

Mitch Landrieu (35:03)

Because they believe in America despite what their leadership is doing. But it will wear thin.

Nicole Wallace (35:09)

Yeah. Yeah. Sue Gordon, it's so great to see you and it's so great to see you strong and fighting for the country I know you love. To be continued. I hope my friend.

Mitch Landrieu (35:19)

Take care.

Nicole Wallace (35:20)

Okay. Up next for us, a big development in the news we talked about at the start of the show. The future of Deputy FBI Director Dan Bongino will tell you what we're learning next. We have some news breaking on the story we brought you at the top of the hour. The turmoil atop the the FBI. Two sources familiar with the matter telling NBC News that deputy director of the FBI Dan Bongino may be leaving his job after a heated confrontation with Attorney General Pam Bondi over his frustration with how the Justice Department has handled the Jeffrey Epstein files. As we reported earlier, Bongino did not come to work today after a heated argument with Pam Bondi Wednesday. Joining us now is my colleague, NBC News White House correspondent Von Hilliard. Also joining us, host of MSNBC's Politics Nation, president of the National Action Network, the Reverend Al Sharpton's here as well. Vaughn, let me read from what you and our colleague Kendallanian are reporting. Bongino did not report to work today amid speculation about his whereabouts. The sources said it came after a heated confrontation Wednesday at a meeting with Pam Bondi and White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles, during which Bongino and FBI Director Kash Patel were asked about a news story suggesting they were dissatisfied with the decision not to release any additional Epstein files. The sources said the meeting was first reported by Axios. Take me inside. What the suspicion is that Patel and Bongino leaked, I mean, the irony of the polygraph story we started our broadcast with and you're reporting, reporting just now, is that Bondi and Weil seem frustrated that Bongino and Patel have gone public with their discontent.

Vaughn Hilliard (37:17)

And I think in large part it's because of the pressure that Cash Patel and Dan Bongino have placed upon themselves. Nicole, we have covered the litany of promises that those two men, upon taking their FBI posts, had made to the American population, that they were going to investigate and reveal everything about Jeffrey Epstein, about the January 6th committee and its investigation. They were going to investigate and reveal who the pipe bomber was. They were going to investigate the 2020 election. And yet we're seven months in now and they have come up with effectively nothing on those fronts here. And that is where I am told, along with our colleague Kendallanian and Monica Alba, that these two men were frustrated by the feeling that they had been stifled by Attorney General Pam Bondi. Now, to the extent that that is reality and to the extent that the attorney general is acting as a shield or actually putting some parameters around their work and their investigations and the basis into them, I think that is the question that each of us are going to have in our reporting here in the days ahead. But these two men, I'm told that Dan Bongino is considering resigning from his post. Kash Patel has not gone as far as to suggest that, but will be looking, I'm told, at how Dan Bongino responds to this. I'm told that both men meet with the attorney General on a daily basis and that they have not kept their displeasures hidden from her. I know that Bam Bondi was at the White House one week ago. They have continued the White House to stand behind her as the Attorney General. At some point in time, though, this is going to come to a head and it may be here in real time. Nicole.

Nicole Wallace (38:58)

I mean, Yvonne, let me just sift through some of this. I mean, they. They put pressure on themselves. What do you mean? I mean, these things are not facts. What kind of pressure do they put on themselves? What do you mean?

Vaughn Hilliard (39:08)

Dan Bongino, right. And he could leave this job and go back to a podcast that undoubtedly made him a lot of money. He had millions of people that would tune in, hundreds of thousands depending on which episode you're watching. And for him, dating back to 2022, 2023, you go back to the archives, and he became popular in large part, especially Cash Patel as well. They made money off of these conspiracy theories and saying that they needed to get Donald Trump back into office. And they kept this idea that if they were in the position of the FBI, they would dismantle it, they would reform it, they'd get the corruption out of the FBI, they'd get the longtime prosecutors out of there. You've had these very conversations, and to a large extent, they have upheld the president promise of getting rid of top officials that have worked inside of the agency. But when it comes to proving the things that they made money off of for a number of years now, the things that not only they made money off of, but ultimately put them in the position of power, now is the time to serve up the evidence. And so far, they haven't been able to do that.

Nicole Wallace (40:14)

I mean, Von Gino didn't make enough money to buy T shirts that fit. Vaughn, what is the. I mean, whatsoever Bongino feels like there's more and he wants more of the Epstein files released, I mean, that seems like an absolutely catastrophic outcome. I never thought I'd say this, but Donald Trump better hope that Dan Bongino doesn't leave and go back to his podcast where he made millions of dollars attacking the FBI, because his base is about to absolutely spill over. And whatever toxic voice brew is inside there is about to come spilling out if he leaves of the Epstein files. I mean, what is the degree of alarm from the folks that will be left holding the bag?

Vaughn Hilliard (40:55)

Okay, I think that's the part, Nicole, that I think that folks need to understand here, is that they have gotten severe pushback from MAGA World and their base for not providing Everything on Jeffrey Epstein. And so in response, they really only have one choice, if you're looking at this in some strategical ballgame sense, and that is to effectively shift the blame to somebody else. And that's Attorney General Pam Bondi. And Pam Bondi hasn't done herself any good by handing out those binders to those social media right wing influencers a couple months ago that ended up having nothing in them. Look at Laura Loomer has suddenly become a voice of, you know, demanding transparency, right? I mean, we know the conspiracy theories that she has continually spewed and spread and she's vile in the way that she describes or calls other people that she perceives as political opponents. But the one thing that she does have going for her is the argument that MAGA has the obligation to uphold to the ideas of the transparency that for the last years they claimed that they would bring if Donald Trump. Trump came back into office.

Nicole Wallace (42:05)

My head's about to explode. I wish so badly that I didn't care about facts cuz this would be so much more fun. But is it, I mean, what is the fact that Laura Loomer's on the side of the truth? And Pam, I mean, is Donald Trump's name as what's his face? Elon Musk said, is there a belief among MAGA that Trump's name is in the Epstein files? I mean, you're saying that Laura Loomer is on the side of transparency, Bondi is covering it up. What is, what do they believe Bondi is covering up on?

Vaughn Hilliard (42:36)

They believe that there's a, there's this, a pedophile ring that is going to implicate a ton of other people. This goes back to QAnon conspiracy theories, right? Donald Trump for this part. There is still this idea that somehow he is the one that was ultimately going to bring this ring to an end. I know that we know the facts completely run counter to that. We know that the two men had a relationship. Donald Trump has acknowledged it himself. But I think that this is where you go to, if you get into the real deep crevices of, you know, the MAGA population of America here. I mean, I think it would take a long time to really dissect just how far and how deep this goes.

Nicole Wallace (43:17)

In the belief that these are people.

Vaughn Hilliard (43:18)

Who are going to be implicated.

Nicole Wallace (43:20)

We have to do that. Whatever else we had planned for today, we will do it on Monday. I need you to stick around. I'm going to bring in my friend John Heilman on the other side of a break. We will start to do that work because it feels like that literally the head of the nation's top law enforcement agencies, number two, might leave over this. So let's go deeper. We'll do that on the other side of a break. Don't go anywhere today.

Dan Bongino (43:49)

I gave up everything for this. I mean, you know, my wife is struggling.

Nicole Wallace (43:54)

If you think we're there for tea.

Dan Bongino (43:55)

And crumpets, I mean, cash is there all day. We share, our offices are linked. He turns on the faucet.

Nicole Wallace (44:02)

I hear it.

Dan Bongino (44:02)

He's there at, he gets in like.

Nicole Wallace (44:04)

6 o' clock in the morning. He doesn't leave till 7 at night.

Dan Bongino (44:07)

You know, I'm in there at 7:30 in the morning.

Nicole Wallace (44:09)

You know, he uses the gym.

Dan Bongino (44:11)

I work out in my apartment. But I stare at these four walls all day in D.C. you know, by myself.

Michael Feinberg (44:17)

Divorced from my wife.

Nicole Wallace (44:18)

Not divorced, but I mean separated, divorced.

Dan Bongino (44:20)

And it's hard.

Nicole Wallace (44:23)

I go to work all day long. It's so hard. What? Who are these people? We're back with a huge development about that gentleman and the turmoil at the FBI. NBC News is reporting that Deputy FBI Director Dan Bongino, who you just heard from, may be leaving his job after a confrontation with the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, over the handling of the Epstein files. We're back with Vaughn, the Rev, and John Heilman joins us as well. Heilmann, you and I talk at length about this topic for your podcast. And I thought we'd be beyond it in the news cycle, but it feels like we're at the beginning of the beginning.

Dan Bongino (44:58)

I did not. Hi, Nicole. I did not think we would be beyond it because we had questions. One of the questions was what would be the spillover effects from this and the question of whether any of these characters, putting aside Donald Trump, whether Dan Bongino, Cash Patel, Pam Bondi would still be in their jobs a week from now, two weeks from now. We both kind of, we talked about it a little bit, but neither one of us knew the answer. I would say that neither one of us thought that today we would start to see some sign that one of them might be gone. I will also say that of the people who I thought would be gone, Dan Bongino, because of that clip that you just played, is why I have thought that if you had to pick up those three, the one who would most likely exit would be him. That strain that you saw on him, that self pity, that the ludicrousness of someone kind of complaining about having to work a long day as the number two official at the FBI. Oh my God, I get it at 7:30, 7:30 in the morning and I work till at least 6:30 every day. How many people in Washington have you known, Nicole, who's been in senior administration positions, who have worked, worked 12, 14, 16 hour days every day that they worked and lived in administration? He's been in office in his job for a few months and he's complaining about what sounds like basically a normal workday, not a high level workday, the kind that a lot of people have in Washington. The strain that you saw there was because this Epstein thing is not just a story from this week. This has been building and the pressure has been building on Kash Patel and on and on Dino now for weeks as they have started to kind of signal that people who thought that the conspiracy theories they peddled were going to be exposed by them, that they were going to be disappointed, they started to kind of make it clear that that's where this was headed. And the backlash that we saw come to a peak this week over that in the MAGA universe was all already starting to be evident in the MAGA media world and online and elsewhere. And Bongino and Cash Patel were starting to feel that pressure and you could see him start to buckle, I think, under it in that clip. So it doesn't surprise me at all that we're hearing what we're hearing about this. I continue to I believe you said yesterday on the podcast that it looks like Donald Trump has Pam Bondi's back. And the way that he took her side and let her have that moment of the Cabinet meeting the other day suggests to me that she is doing what Donald Trump wants here. But that may not be the same thing that Cash Patel and Dan Bongino want. I don't know what they want, but they feel, I think, very exposed right now for the lies that they've told in the past and now the retribution that a lot of the MAGA base and the anger or the betrayal that the MAGA base is directing towards them. And they do not seem at the moment to be handling it with maximum steadfastness or grace.

Nicole Wallace (47:57)

I mean, Rev, why would Donald Trump have Pam Bondi's back in this?

Michael Feinberg (48:02)

Well, I think that in many ways he has no choice because she's going to have to, if anyone in this whole setup, she's going to have to stand by whatever it is that she's put out. Deal with this one minute that's missing. And you know, when you start spinning and selling conspiracy theories. And there's the other side of it called the truth of what may or may not have happened. You're going to get people that will explode. And because they've sold this, they've made money off this. And now you've got somebody saying, wait a minute, there's no there there. And it fell on Bondi to have to do this. And Trump, I think, really has no choice but to back her up. The real problem is that when we ought to be focusing on other things, we have been tied up for days now on really the overselling of a conspiracy theory that has come back to haunt them. And in some ways it's sad, and in some ways it's comical. They created the very web that they're trying to crawl out of on all sides.

Nicole Wallace (49:15)

Yeah, it definitely raises more questions than it answers. We'll stay on top of this and we will bring everybody back. Don't go far from your cameras over the next hour. If anything else develops. Von Hilliard, thank you for your reporting. John Hallman and Rev, thank you for helping us make sense of it. Up next for us, we'll dig deeper into what is causing these cracks among Trump's MAGA universe. Much, much more when Deadline White House returns on a Friday. We'll be right back. We all belong outside. We're drawn to nature. Whether it's the recorded sounds of the ocean we doze off to or the succulents that adorn our homes, nature makes all of our lives, well, better. Despite all this, we often go about our busy lives removed from it. But the outdoors is closer than we realize. With alltrails, you can discover trails nearby and explore confidently with offline maps and on trail navigation. Download the free app today at Designer Shoe Warehouse. We believe that shoes are an important.

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Michael Feinberg (51:25)

There'll be people that like, they'll DM me like, you see what, you see what your boy's doing? You voted for this.

Nicole Wallace (51:29)

I'm like, I voted for none of this.

Michael Feinberg (51:32)

He's doing the exact opposite of everything I voted for.

Irwin Redlener (51:35)

Yeah, I want him to stop the wars.

Nicole Wallace (51:37)

He's funding them.

Irwin Redlener (51:37)

I want him to shrink spending, reduce the budget.

Nicole Wallace (51:40)

He's increasing it. It's the MAGA morning after the maga walk of shame, whatever you want to call it. Hi again, everybody. It's five o' clock in the East. There's that saying, don't bite the hands that feed you. And yet that seems like exactly what Donald Trump is doing right now to his old friends in the manosphere. The man you just heard from is big in the manosphere. His name is Andrew Schultz. He's a comedian and a podcaster who got really excited about Donald Trump and strongly backed him, was likely influential with all of his listeners. He supported Trump. In 2024. Trump went on his podcast in the lead up to November's election. It was one in a series of appearances that Trump made in said manosphere of right wing podcasts and podcasters at the time, appearances that garnered millions of views and viewers outside of the political news environment, podcasters who were comedians or not anchoring political broadcasts like this one. Those appearances turned out to be a boon to his campaign. Melania credited there's some barren with the strategy, but as you just heard, Schultz, the podcaster, the comedian say he's not happy with anything. Quote, I didn't sign up for any of this. And he and Trump voters like him, like his listeners, arguably are not happy with the things Trump's doing. The reality right now, what they say they voted for is not what they see happening. New reporting in the Washington Post shows they're not alone. Quote, Frustration and anger have roiled some of Trump's most loyal supporters, who fear he is going back on promises crucial to the MAGA movement. Trump is advocating a new policy that would spare swaths of migrant workers from deportations. Top administration officials who long promised to expose hidden truths about Jeffrey Epstein, the wealthy child sex offender who died in 2019, suddenly conceded this week that they had nothing more to share about the case. And Trump said he would send more weapons to Ukraine just days after leading MAGA figures cheered the Pentagon decision to halt the shipments. Quote I will tell you right now. MAGA has never been in more turmoil than in the last 72 hours, said a person close to Trump speaking anonymously in order to discuss a sensitive situation. Now, on the topic of the Epstein client list, we saw MAGA world whipped into a frenzy and a fury this week, feeling as though they'd been deceived, lied to. When Trump snapped at a reporter at a Cabinet meeting by saying, quote, I can't believe you're asking about Epstein at a time like this, Liz Wheeler, a MAGA influencer, even posted, quote, trump is massively misreading his base on this one. It could cost him the midterms. And here's a little bit more of the comedian we came in on, Schultz reacting to that same moment of Trump brushing aside questions of Epstein. So we're stupid.

Michael Feinberg (54:41)

Yeah, we're the idiots, guys. Just let you know, we are wasting time.

Nicole Wallace (54:46)

Look at us. That's a good point.

Michael Feinberg (54:49)

That is like, in all seriousness, that is, I think what is enraging people right now is it's insulting our intelligence. Like, obviously the intelligence community is trying to cover it up.

Nicole Wallace (54:59)

Obviously, it's to trying.

Michael Feinberg (55:00)

Trump administration is trying to cover up something changed because they ran on this idea of exposing it all.

Nicole Wallace (55:08)

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Trump thinks you're stupid. That's why he does what he does. That's why he baits and switches. That's why he says he's going to make things cheaper. And then he launches a trade war to make them more expensive. You got it. Even people inside the Trump administration are angry, it would appear, as we reported in the last hour, they're equally wed to the conspiracies, it would seem, all the way up to the Deputy FBI director, Dan Bongino, who is reported now to be thinking of leaving his job due to his frustration over the Jeffrey Epstein matter. And after a heated confrontation with Attorney General Pam Bondi, the Justice Department declined to comment when asked by NBC News. When it comes to Trump's top issue among his voters, his curbing of illegal immigration in our country, there's new polling that shows support for what he's doing is bottoming out. It's falling faster than it's ever fallen since he's been on the public stage in the arena, if you will. Gallup finds that only 35% of Americans approve of his handling of immigration. 62% disapprove. That's the lowest it's ever been. Among those who disapprove, one of the most influential voices in the podcast space, Joe Rogan, has voiced his frustration more than once.

Dan Bongino (56:24)

Listen, there's two things that are insane.

Nicole Wallace (56:28)

One is the targeting of migrant workers.

Dan Bongino (56:32)

Not cartel members, not gang members, not drug dealers, just construction workers showing up.

Nicole Wallace (56:41)

In construction sites, raiding them gardeners.

Irwin Redlener (56:45)

Yeah.

Nicole Wallace (56:45)

Like really, if they, the Trump administration, if they're running and they said, we're.

Dan Bongino (56:49)

Going to go to Home Depot and we're gonna arrest all the people at Home Depot, we're gonna go to construction.

Nicole Wallace (56:53)

Sites and we're gonna just like tackle people at construction sites. I don't think anybody would've signed up for that. They said we're gonna get rid of the criminals and the gang members first. Right. And now we're seeing like Home Depots get raided. Like, that's crazy. Trouble in the Manosphere is where we start this hour. Some of our favorite experts and friends, former senior advisor to President Biden and vice president President Harris, former mayor of New Orleans, Mitch Landrieu is here. Also joining us, MSNBC columnist, author of the newsletter to the Contrary, Charlie Sykes is here. Also joining us, MSNBC senior contributing editor Michelle Norris is here as well. Michelle, I'll start with you, and then we'll let the men weigh in on Trouble in the Manosphere. This was a smart political strategy. And now that I've stuck my toe into podcast world, I have even more understanding of how influential Joe Rogan is. And the other voices, they dominate this space. And part of the reason they dominate the space is it isn't just politics. I mean, it's comedy, it's sports. It comes in ways that are, for a lot of listeners, a lot more appealing than news and politics. And they are not happy right now for a variety of reasons. But chief among them, Joe Rogan, for months now has been voicing his concern with disappearing students on campuses, arresting workers on their jobs, landscapers and construction workers. And that has been pretty consistent. And you have others who may have been more animated by the conspiracy theories about Jeffrey Epstein wearing tinfoil hats. I think in that clip I showed you, and saying they think we're all idiots. I mean, they're onto him.

Michelle Norris (58:34)

Well, I'm glad you explained the tinfoil hats because that wasn't, I didn't understand why the baked potato thing was happening on top of their heads.

Nicole Wallace (58:40)

I think. Well, I mean, I'm open to being fact checked on that, but that's my best guess about the tinfoil hat.

Michelle Norris (58:47)

But I think the through line in all of this is people feel like they've been hoodwinked, bamboozled. They were sold a bill of goods. He said he was going to do one thing, they said, and now they see him doing something else. I'm surprised a bit that they're surprised, because I think we should have expected to see some of this from Donald Trump. He said that there were gonna be mass deportations. He said that there were gonna be tariffs. Maybe people didn't read the fine print and. But I think for their audience, one of the reasons that it was so effective is podcasting is a very intimate medium. People are listening in their personal spaces. You're inside their head. And it was a way to put Donald Trump in front of a large audience of young men who saw him a bit as a renegade at that point. But now that he's in the White House, he's gone from renegade to retrograde. He's gone from someone who was an outsider, who was an insider, who's part of the establishment and doing things that they don't much like. And I think it's going to be very hard for him to claw back on this from that group now that he's lost them. I don't think that that's going to be easy. And it's. And they're. They're. They're reminded every day by these images that they see. It's. The economy is one thing, but I think the deportations and the Epstein case are the two things that are going to make it really difficult for him to turn this around. It's interesting in the MAGA world, the things that are sticky for them, and Epstein is one of those things. It's hard to explain. It's almost like Pizzagate. Like, where did that come from? Totally aren't going to let go of that. There's no exterminating it. There's no getting rid of it. There's nothing that you can do that makes sense to help explain how they can get rid of that. And they put themselves in this box by making claims, by talking about things that, frankly, they should never be talking about. This is a case that there's no reason that Pam Bondi should be involved in this conversation at all. And now it's come back to bite them.

Nicole Wallace (60:40)

Yeah. I mean, Mitch, I think Michelle's put her finger on the political danger of the moment for Trump. We cover the economy because the economy affects every single person. And no person in their right mind wishes for any economic uncertainty or hardship or despair for anybody. However, Trump's bait and switch is a huge political story, and it's an economic story. It doesn't have heat. It doesn't stick for some reason, the way the Epstein betrayal seems to be sticking. And the problem, I think, and I'm curious your thoughts on this political moment is that Trump went into these spaces and they gave him the benefit of the doubt. He was a politician, but he didn't talk like one, he didn't sound like one. And he was a convicted felon, for Christ's sake. You know, he wanted to be accepted in their world as one of them or as acceptable to them. And now after the Epstein handling, he is establishment, establishment, establishment. And he's accused of someone with more credibility than him in this world, Elon Musk, of being in the Epstein files himself. How do we sort of on earth one make sense of this moment?

Charlie Sykes (61:57)

Well, a couple of things and it's good to see Charlie and Michelle. One, Donald Trump has betrayed the folks that voted for him. But that's just what Donald Trump does. He's pretty much betrayed everybody in his life because he's a betrayer. And people are starting to feel that pain. And I feel bad for them. I can't speak and don't understand the MAGA crowd, but there are a whole bunch of working class people that are not MAGA that voted for Trump that are being betrayed right now because the reason they voted for him was so because he would reduce cost. And as you said, his costs have gone up. Secondly, it's becoming clear, as if it wasn't before, that Donald Trump does a bad job at his job, that is hiring people that know what they're doing, whether it's Elon Musk to downsize government. And he found a way to eviscerate Noah and FEMA and a whole bunch of other things that have now hurt all the folks in Texas. Or better yet, on Homeland security with immigration, Joe Rogan is exactly right about the cruelty of immigration. I just got off the phone with a woman named Donna Kashanian who has been in the United States for 50 years, that got picked up while she was gardening the other day and thrust into Basile, Louisiana, a prison with a thousand other women who are there right now. And she just got released and had an ankle monitor on. But this woman has an American husband. She has an American daughter. She is the head. She works with the schools in our city. She's a New Orleans citizen. And the cruelty of picking her up and separating her from a family is so incredibly painful. And then, of course, you see the terrible response in Texas. And then Joe Rogan's picking up on just the betrayal of what Donald Trump spoke about, and it's going to be very, very hard for him to get that back. But as Michel said, I feel bad for them. But one of the things is be careful what you ask for, because it should have been pretty clear to people from the beginning that this is who Donald Trump is, and he's just going to get better at being bad. And we got a long three and a half years ahead of us, which is why people have to stand up and be counted and try to get into a place where we have the power to change things going forward.

Nicole Wallace (64:02)

Thanks to you, Mitch, we got to know Donna's husband and daughter. You brought that story to our attention, and we got to know her as well. But it's a perfect example, Charlie, of this betrayal. I mean, what Trump told his voters, and I guess they should have known. I think this is where I have a little more, you know, we get out of this moment if everyone starts rowing together. And so I welcome anyone that wants to pick up an opportunity or. And should Joe Rogan have known better? Yeah, sure. But I welcome whatever enlightenment he seems to be embracing and articulating to his millions of viewers. And my question for you is, what is the where are we in terms of the betrayal and making his followers look stupid? I mean, that's what that clip is about. I mean, that, to me, is why it becomes newsworthy. They are saying, what do you think? We're idiots? And the answer for nine long years, excruciating years, has been, yes, he thinks you're idiots. He thinks you're idiots. That's why he puts idiots in charge of the Pentagon and the FBI and all sorts of other agencies, because he thinks loyalty won't hurt you. And of course it does. When you pick loyalty over competence, of course it hurts these institutions and the men and women who serve in them.

Irwin Redlener (65:22)

Yes, and Dan Bongino being item number one there. Look, as far as Joe Rogan goes, I mean, if only he had been warned. We have to accept everyone who sees the light. But, but really, remember the Republican Convention? They were actually holding up signs at mass deportation. So for anyone to say, oh, my goodness, they meant mass deportations. Yes, they told you, mass deportations. They actually held up the signs. But there's two groups that I think we need to make distinctions here. There is the hardcore MAGA base, which is a cult, which does not feel betrayed, except perhaps on the episteme thing. Let's leave them aside for the moment. The manosphere, the people you're talking about here are more like MAGA Adjacent. They're not really the cult part of this and they are disillusioned by this. And the stories that you're seeing about the deportations, I think are eroding support among the people who are, you know, maybe MAGA curious people who are, you know, potential swing voters. But again, you know, look, we just saw the vote in Congress over the last couple of weeks. Donald Trump has the absolute total loyalty of the Republican Party. There's no pushback whatsoever from them. So he owns that. But let's talk about the Epstein case, because this is the one where you do see a distinction, not just, not just amongst the MAGA adjacent folks that you've been showing, but also in the MAGA cultists. And I think Michelle is absolutely right. That's the one that is sticky. That's the one that really goes to the ID of maga. And what's weird about this, of course, is that you have the conspiracy theories, the deep state there. You know, can we get the Clintons involved in this? Israeli intelligence? You know, I guess again, the usual kinds of bizarre, delusional conspiracies out there. But there's also the core of truth which that Jeffrey Epstein was a sex trafficker. His activities have been extensively documented and we know that he had a very close relationship with Donald Trump. And I guess the cognitive dissonance here is what kind of blows my mind is like, what did they think was going to happen? You've seen the pictures of Donald Trump. There's a long record of Donald Trump's admiration for Jeffrey Epstein and his admiration for young, beautiful women. And yet MAGA went all in. You cannot overstate how obsessed they were with the Epstein files. And yet, so here we have Trump in power and suddenly realizing that, yeah, maybe I don't want to release them. So you have a conspiracy theory. Maybe there's nothing to it or maybe there are things in this file and again, you hate it when the worst person in the world makes a good point. Maybe Elon Musk has a point. And so, and so this is what I think is freaking people out. This is why it is sticky. Because again, this is the heart and soul of a lot of the MAGA conspiracy theories this deep state, all these sexual predators who were going to be exposed and it never seemed to have occurred to them that, well, are we talking about Donald Trump, a man who, you know, a federal jury found liable for sexual abuse, who bragged about grabbing women, who, you know, has a long record of walking in on 16 year old girls in changing rooms and Suddenly there's this moment like, my goodness, you know, Donald Trump is the guy that we had been going along with, with. And maybe we are, you know, the idiots. Maybe we are the folks with the tinfoil hat. So I do think that one is the one that is sticky and to keep an eye on, because this Bongino Kash Patel story is. I mean, this has got hair on it, but again, what do you expect when you name people like that to positions of trust and responsibility?

Nicole Wallace (69:19)

Well, it's so interesting, you know, in every cliche, right, Live by the sword, die by the sword. I mean, if this story and this accusation from Elon Musk, which is what thrust the question, I mean, I don't think it was evidence. It was just we were asking the question after Elon Musk tweeted about Trump being in the Epstein files into the mainstream. And now if Bongino is sort of a second shoe that falls if he ends up leaving the FBI over this, I think this becomes Trump's version of his lies about, well, any manner of things about the. I mean, this becomes a conspiracy for which you've got two of the biggest figures in MAGA world creating more suspicion, more questions. I have more questions, though. I need you guys all to stick around. Much more with everybody after a short break. Also head for a stunning new revolution. Congratulations from top Justice Department official. Email Bove, who is awaiting confirmation for a lifetime appointment to a federal appellate to be a federal appellate court judge. What he's saying about January six and the possibility of a third presidential term for Donald Trump in normal times, which these aren't, it could be disqualifying. Deadline Whitehouse continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere. We're back with Mitch, Charlie and Michelle. And Michelle. Our colleagues Ken Delaney and Vaughn Hilliard are covering this developing story since we've been on the air. And I want to share this update to their reporting. They report that Deputy FBI Director Dan Bongino is considering leaving his job after this heated confrontation with Attorney General Pam Bondi over his frustration with how the Justice Department has handled the Jeffrey Epps Epstein files. That's according to a person who's spoken with Bongino and a source familiar with Bongino and FBI Director Cash Patel's interactions with Bondi. Quote, bongino is out of control, furious. The person who has spoken with the deputy FBI director said, quote, this destroyed his career. He's threatening to quit and torch Pam unless she is fired. I. Michelle, your thoughts? What do you make of that? That you've now got a public fight in the press being waged in the press in the same news cycle that we learned the FBI is using polygraphs to root out anyone talking to the press.

Michelle Norris (71:41)

There are so many things just to unpack here. Out of control, torching someone. I mean, this kind of language coming from the number two at the FBI, we're not talking about, you know, high school texts. This is not a reality show. This is the FBI. And this is happening at a moment where we are experiencing in the middle of tensions with Iran where, you know, there are very real threats to our cybersecurity system here. This is. And the numbers that you reported in the first hour are so troubling on the number of field offices that have seen significant defections, you know, the number of FBI agents who are leaving. And so if he is leaving at this point, you know, it's, it's probably better to move on. Let's let it happen quickly so the FBI can get back to the business of serving and protecting the interests of Americans. And maybe perhaps we can remind people what the FBI stands for. Remember, this is someone who spent most of he talked about he ruined his career. What career? What are we talking about? Most of his career was spent in front of a microphone denigrating the organization that he is now supposed to be running. And so maybe it's better that he perhaps go back to doing that and let the FBI get back to the business of serving and protecting the American public at a moment where we really need the FBI to be firing on all cylinders, to be sharp and smart and fully in control of all the faculties to make sure that we are safe.

Nicole Wallace (73:19)

Well, I'm going to say something here that is clear to me. With distance from both MAGA and Trump, his career as he knows it is already over. Because unless he plans to go back to the podcast studio and trash Donald Trump for four years, there is no going home. I mean, he became part of the deep state he railed against and he is now part of what his listeners believe to be a cover up. And he didn't just lose Laura Loomer, he lost Megyn Kelly. I mean, and I'll pick up on the language, you know, out of control and torching language used by a man about female leader of doj. If that's the public rhetoric, I believe all of the press reports about the toxic environment inside the FBI. Mitchell.

Charlie Sykes (74:14)

Well, again, Donald Trump is the commander in chief. He's the President. This is serious time. It's not kindergarten. The nation's safety is at risk. We are in perilous times. The first six months of Donald Trump's administration has been nothing but chaos, whether you're talking about tariffs and immigration or war and peace. And now, for God's sakes, the FBI. If these folks are not standing on point, thinking about what they're supposed to be thinking about, which is our national security, both at home and intern, in some instances abroad, we are in a hell of a mess. I mean, I can just. If you think about the 23 cabinet members in the first term, that said, you know, this is really a bad situation. And now the President has now had a fight with the richest man in the world and fired him. Then he's got these two bozos running the FBI, and now they're yelling at, this is just a clown show. And, you know, the President's got to get it together here because this is not playtime anymore. It's very serious. And time is of the essence here.

Nicole Wallace (75:13)

Yeah, I mean, this is a question about leadership right now. I mean, this is the reporting that just came in, Charlie. And this isn't about Pam Bondi and Kash Patel right now. This is about Donald Trump. Do you fire a person who says this about your Attorney General? Quote, bongino is out of control, furious, quote, this destroyed his career. He's threatening to quit and torch Pam unless she's fired. I mean, again, I know we're not in normal times, but if I could just inject a little bit of that barometer. The deputy director of the FBI said that about any attorney general to the press, that he plans to go torch his boss. That would be a fireable offense.

Irwin Redlener (75:53)

Yeah, I mean, this is. Dan Bongino's been out of control for years. You know, Mitch describes him as a bozo. He is. But I just did a cautionary note here. You know, Dan Bongino leaving the FBI is not going to solve the problems of the FBI. Dan Bongino's departure is not going to make anything calmer or better. By the way, your interview with Sue Gordon and the discussions in the previous hour did underline how grave the threat is. But to Mitch's point, all of this flows from Donald Trump himself. So when one guy like Dan Bongino leaves, it doesn't mean that things go back to anything close to normal, because this is what Donald Trump want. This is why he named these loyalists. He didn't want to have what happened in his first term where he had slightly independent cabinet members who bailed on him. And so this is the House that Donald Trump built. He sent Cash Patel and Dan Bongino into the FBI to torch the place, to tear it all down. And, you know, it's not perhaps working out the way that he wanted. But this is a mess. The one thing that if Dan Bongino does leave, it takes the Epstein story and it just pours kerosene on it. It's not something that we just move on from, especially in MAGA world. So you will see this. You know, one of the big questions I think we have is, you know, is this a one day story? Is this something that we're gonna forget about by Monday? If Dan Bongino and or Kash Patel were to leave because of this, that guarantees that it is going to simmer for a very, very long time and the result will be more chaos, not less chaos in the Trump administration.

Nicole Wallace (77:34)

Yeah. And I mean, right now, look, Trump is a political Houdini, but right now they're all bad options for Trump. Right. Bongino can quit and go back to his podcast and I guess spend three and a half years to quote him, quote, torching Pam Bondi and the Trump administration. I guess that does terrible things for the conspiracy theory that Elon Musk platformed on his platform, that Trump's name is hidden in there. Or Trump fires all these folks and as you said, starts anew. It is a mess. Mitch Landridge, Charlie Sykes, thank you both for helping us unpack some of it. Michelle sticks around. When we come back, we'll continue to follow this developing story. Also ahead for us, top DOJ official email Bobay awaiting confirmation for a lifetime appointment to the federal judiciary. Says he can't rule out a potential third presidential term for Donald Trump, despite what the Constitution says about that. We'll bring you that story next.

Dan Bongino (78:41)

I'm wondering where the lines are for you. What's the line in the sand when you wield awesome power of government? What is that line for you? Because clearly lying to a court isn't a red line. Referring to refusing to follow court orders isn't a line. Doxing judges and government officials isn't a red line. Intimidating attorneys you supervise into doing things they believe is unethical is not a line. So what's your red line? I really wonder, what could the president ask you to do that you wouldn't do? What wouldn't you do to win?

Nicole Wallace (79:19)

Senator Cory Booker asking EMIL BOVE the $64 million question. He's Donald Trump's pick for a lifetime appointment on the Third Circuit Court of Appeals. Chilling question. Just how Much further he will go. And if there is any line that he wouldn't cross in service of Donald Trump. A new Senate questionnaire offers a terrifying glimpse of what the answer really is. In the questionnaire, completed as part of his Senate confirmation process, Bovet refuses to rule out Donald Trump running for third term as president, responding, quote, as a nominee to the Third Circuit, it would not be appropriate for me to address how this amendment would apply in an abstract, hypothetical scenario. Bovet was given the opportunity to clarify that response. Instead, he repeated his response, which is nonsense, several times. It's unconstitutional. The amendment, I guess Bove is referring to is the 22nd Amendment, which states, quote, no person shall be elected to the office of president more than twice, end quote. Pretty clear. Unambiguous, one might say. But not to Bove, who didn't stop there. When asked if he denounced the January 6th insurrection, he said, this, quote, the characterization of the events on January 6, 2021, is a matter of significant political debate and subject to ongoing litigation. Thus, as a judicial nominee, it would be inappropriate to address this question. Really? Ask Mike Pence what he thinks about that. And he was asked where he was on January 6th when Donald Trump and his supporters tried to stop the peaceful transfer of power. Said he couldn't remember. Joining our conversation is co founder and executive director at Protect Democracy, Ian Bassin. Michelle's still with us. Ian. I remember where I was standing when the events of January 6th started to transpire. I remember what my husband Mike and I said to each other. I remember the sources I called to try to understand what happened. I remember just about everything that happened on the air once I raced into work and, and came up early. And I don't expect that every single person in this country remembers exactly where they were. But everyone who's ever been part of American government surely knows where they were on January 6th. That feels like the first and most obvious lie.

Adam Goldman (81:40)

And it tells us how far we've come that, you know, right after January six, you had the leaders of the Republican Party, Mitch McConnell and Kevin McCarthy, make clear that a red line had been breached and been breached by President Trump at the time. And now we have nominees for lifetime appointments who can't even bring themselves to condemn, let alone January 6th itself. One of the most damaging and dangerous moments in the history of our constitutional republic. But he couldn't even bring himself as an answer to just condemn violent attacks on law enforcement. And I wonder how the law enforcement community feels about someone who can't say that in their application to a lifetime judicial appointment.

Nicole Wallace (82:23)

IAN I mean, what does it say that neither one of us would probably bet, you know, much waiting for law enforcement en masse to speak out and oppose someone like him.

Adam Goldman (82:38)

Well, look, I worked on judicial nominations when I was in the White House Counsel's office, and already at that point we were getting to a stage of almost kaboom, spooky theater with these nominations and questionnaires and hearings in which nominees basically felt that it didn't really matter what they said in their questionnaires or even what they said in the hearings because the votes were kind of baked in largely along partisan lines. And I think this questionnaire is sort of the apotheosis of it, right? Here's someone who basically is saying whether a president could be elected to a third term or not is, I don't know. That's a, it's a question he can't answer yet. And you know, look, I get the way these nominees say, well, it's a question that could come before me, but there are provisions in the Constitution like what is a well regulated militia in the Second Amendment that is open to interpretation, but there are other provisions in the Constitution that you better give a pretty clear answer, right? The original Constitution counted black Americans in the south as 3/5 of a person, and we fix that in the Constitution. If you asked a nominee to the federal courts today, do do you believe that's been fixed or do you believe that our Constitution still should count black Americans as three fifths of a person? You better bet that person says that's been resolved and they should have nowhere anywhere near a federal court or any other position of responsibility to go. And the 22nd Amendment, as you pointed out, is clear. But this is how the Overton window moves and shifts and it's up to senators to start putting lines down. And I would point here to Senator Thom Tillis, who said recently that anyone who couldn't clearly condemn January6 was not getting past him. And then he opened the door to voting for Beauvais. And unless he's going to put his foot down here, you're going to have Beauvais assume that he's entitled to the seat.

Nicole Wallace (84:23)

MICHEL the Overton window is something that we've tried to track, right? And it's almost lost its usefulness as tool because there are no windows, there are no more frames, there's no more perspective. They have now turned the Trump White House in this iteration, has turned the Republicans in the Senate into ghosts, into shadows of what they once were. Nobody thinks that they're for someone who's against the Constitution being on the bench, but we all know that they'll vote for him. Nobody thinks that most of them are for halting military shipments to Ukraine, but they'll all support Donald Trump. Nobody. Nobody. I was a Republican. None of them are for tariffs the way Donald Trump is applying them and using them as weapons. And none of them will exert what is actually their authority over tariffs. How do we cover this moment when the Republicans in the Senate are doing things that they have never until this moment supported or believed in?

Michelle Norris (85:29)

You remind them of this. You refuse to accept this as normal. You get out into the world and talk to their constituents because they're not doing that anymore. They're not going to do town halls. Normally, August would be a month where members of Congress for senators and representatives would be out in front of their constituents hearing from them. I'm willing to bet that very few of them are willing to do that now because they're going to get an earful about many of the things that we've been talking about and some of the things that we have not gotten to yet, including the cuts in Medicaid, including people's discomfort with the way that the deportations are being carried out. And so we, we use truth as our guide. We are informed by history and we call them out and remind them that what they are doing, you know, it's interesting when you, many of the people who voted for the so called beautiful bill didn't even read it, you know, so there are people who are things that they're not, they're not that they don't believe in, that they're not comfortable with. Loyalty is, they're, they're, they're governed, they are governed now completely by loyalty or by fear. And if you have people in or who are governed, governed entirely by fear, you don't deserve to have that job if the only reason you hold on to it is because you are afraid of someone trying to primary you. You serve your constituents. And we have to remind people and frankly remind ourselves that that's who they're there. They were voted to serve the constituents. And if they are not doing that, we have to remind them and remind their constituents. And many of them aren't watching, let's be honest, are watching, you know, probably other programs right now. But to still put that in the atmosphere, to still send that information out and not just talk about this in terms of winners and losers politically, but what people are losing tangibly because of legislation, what they are losing tangibly because of the shift in our sort of moral compass. You know, it was interesting what he said about police officers that, you know, what do police officers have to say about this? This is something that we should be remembering. Also. When we talk about January 6th, we're usually talking about the marauders. We're usually talking about the defiling of the Capitol. We probably should spend a little bit more time talking about the loss of life, loss of dignity, the loss of mental wellness of so many people who were there again, to protect and to serve the Capitol and to remind people who, particularly from that side of the aisle, were there usually to support the men and women in uniform. Why aren't they supporting the men and women in uniform with someone like Emil Beauvais? Why are we, why are we allowing, allowing the Republican Party to continue to stand up for a group of men who defiled the Capitol and attacked, attacked that thin blue line at the Capitol, Remind people of that.

Nicole Wallace (88:37)

Michelle Norris and Ian Bassin, thank you for being part of our coverage today. To be continued. When we come back, as Donald Trump slowly seems to be reversing himself in a way that's sort of welcome by warming up to backing you, Ukraine, our allies in Europe are not wavering. And right now, with Russia ramping up their brutal attacks, the contrast between Trump and other world leaders could not be more stark. We'll show you what that looks like after a short break. After months now of what are traditionally our closest allies, the Europeans, standing strongly behind Ukraine. Well, the American president, Donald Trump, has flip flopped and seemed to abandon one of our closest allies. There are signs that that might be changing a little. Yesterday, Donald Trump told our colleague at NBC News, Kristen WELKER, that the U.S. will be sending weapons to NATO to be distributed to Ukraine. It comes as Russia fails to make significant progress in its invasion of Ukraine and has increasingly up the pace of their attacks on civilian targets. A new report by the United nations finds a 37% increase in civilian casualties in Ukraine compared to one year ago and growing acts of brutality like attacking and targeting hospitals. Joining our coverage is co founder of the Ukraine Children's Action Project and an MSNBC public health analyst, our friend Dr. Irwin Redlener. He's attending the Ukraine Recovery Conference conference with global leaders in Rome. Dr. Redliner, tell us what the current state of life is for children in Ukraine.

Michael Feinberg (90:20)

Well, hi, Nicole. Yeah, no, it's getting increasingly difficult. I mean, we're talking about families that were extremely resilient. They, they were getting an occasional attack nearby. But now we're having an enormous increase in intensity of bombings. We're talking about 5, 600, 700 drone attacks, along with missiles, ballistic missiles and other guided missiles. And the element of fear is really rattling children and families much more than we've seen in the past. The Russians are just absolutely brutal, Nicole. There's just no mercy. I don't know, I guess they're trying to position themselves for, for whatever it is that they need to try to accomplish in their minds for some sort of ceasefire. But at the end of the day, we're talking about real serious war crimes against civilian populations. And it's really hurting children in spite of the fact that these are one of some of the most resilient, wonderful, life affirming children populations that we've ever seen.

Nicole Wallace (91:29)

What does Zelensky have to say to the world community? What is his plea?

Michael Feinberg (91:35)

You know, it was a fascinating talk by Zelinsky. He was very passionate. He said that they're not giving up. He said that they really intended to prevail in this battle. And he made the point over and over again that this is not just a fight for, for the democracy in Ukraine. This was a fight for democracy in Europe and democracy across the world. This guy is really putting it on the line for the American democracy.

Nicole Wallace (92:09)

Dr. Redliner, we're grateful that you're there and that you stayed up and spent some time to talk to us. Please come see us when you get back. Thank you for joining us today. For more information on the Ukraine Children's Action Plan Project, go to ucap. Help another break for us. We'll be right back.

Dan Bongino (92:28)

I feel like music is a thing.

Michael Feinberg (92:29)

That keeps us sane down here. And I think that because of that.

Dan Bongino (92:36)

We kind of are angels in a way. And I think I told everybody in the creative community that I know that during these times of divisiveness and all of that, we all need to grow our wings a little bit bigger and.

Michael Feinberg (92:49)

Flap them a little bit harder and.

Dan Bongino (92:52)

Be intentional in the work that we do. Whether it's songs, whether it's lyrics of songs. Really in any kind of art, I think be intentional that it should be. It should help heal, it should help bring together. Because we have so many forces trying to divide us.

Nicole Wallace (93:10)

So I saved the best for last. That is Rock and Roll hall of Fame super producer Jimmy Jam. He is my guest on the next episode of the Best People podcast. Music legends like Prince, Janet Jackson, Michael Jackson trusted Jimmy to help them with their art to help create the soundtrack of all of our lives. Jimmy is an incredible human being. He's my friend and he is so special. He has a message about empathy that we could all benefit from right now. So here's what you do. Scan the QR code on your screen if you want to hear it today. You have to subscribe to MSNBC Premium to listen to the Conversation with Jimmy Jam right now ad free. Let me know what you think if you listen to that. Quick break for us. We'll be right back. Thank you so much for letting us into your homes for another week of shows. We are grateful. This season let your shoes do the talking.

Adam Goldman (94:05)

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Nicole Wallace (94:07)

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Adam Goldman (94:09)

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Irwin Redlener (94:18)

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Adam Goldman (94:20)

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Irwin Redlener (94:22)

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Nicole Wallace (94:24)

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