D (4:29)

Okay, are you ready?

E (4:30)

I don't know who he is.

C (4:33)

You ready for this? It's good. I got no bleeping clue who he even is. So we start the hour. Some of our favorite reporters and friends. New York Times investigative reporter MSNBC national security contributor Mike Schmidt is here at the table. Also joining us, New York Times correspondent Teddy Schleiper. Also joining us, former top official at the Department of Justice, MSNBC legal analyst Andrew Weissman. Andrew Weisman. Just level set. Not just what is normal, but what is happening because it seems that Donald Trump, after receiving the Supreme Court decision on immunity, is seeking to spread that immunity all across his political coalition. What do you see in his use of the pardon?

B (5:19)

Take what's normal. What's normal is in Republican or Democratic administrations there's A process to make sure that you are not pardoning somebody for an exceedingly violent crime, somebody who has not taken responsibility for their actions, for people who are likely to be recidivists, you're going to commit crimes again and that you are treating people equally. And none of that is happening here. One of the things that I would add to the litany that you started with is the odor of grift here, where the amount of money that's going to PACs and people who are then getting pardons suggests this is just completely antithetical to the rule of law. I would ask viewers to think about the following hypothetical what would you expect the pardon power to look like if you had an autocrat in the White House who is also a convicted criminal? Would you expect hundreds of people who attacked the Capitol at your behest to be pardoned? Would you expect political cronies to be pardoned? Would you expect CEOs, really rich people who could give to your campaign to be pardoned? Would you expect political corruption of all sorts to be pardoned? Because the last thing you want is for prosecutors to be seeking to hold politicians to account for corruption. Well, all of that has happened. All of those types of people have been pardoned. And it's something that is legal but is because of the Constitution, but is a gross, gross abuse of power and is antithetical to the rule of law.

C (7:11)

The pardoning of people who are violent, Mike Schmidt seems to be a Trump specific use of the pardon. People who are violent up to the moment when they're pardoned. And in the case of Jonathan Braun, who you read about was violent before Trump pardoned him the first time, went on to carry out violence, including against a three year old, is now going back to jail. What can you tell us about this one case and this one Trump pardon recipient and his history of violence?

F (7:44)

So we found out as soon as Trump was leaving office that he had commuted the sentence of this guy, Jonathan Braun the first time. And we were really surprised by that because he had a violent history that was as clear as day from the docket. If you had read the court papers, like what? That he had basically beat an underling with a belt. That in the course of this investigation into him in which he was ultimately convicted over 10 years ago, he had beat an underling with a belt who had done something wrong. So we were surprised, like in his.

C (8:22)

Work or in his family.

F (8:23)

As a drug dealer. As a drug dealer, he had taken off his belt, he'd gone out to California, someone who had worked for him, had made a mistake, and he had beaten him with a belt. There was another instance where he'd been accused of throwing someone off of a deck. And these were all out there. And he received this commutation. So we wrote a story about it because we're like, wow, isn't this crazy that this person who has a violent history had received a commutation? We later found that he was able to use a connection to the Kushner family and hiring Alan Dershowitz to get his application before the president and that there had been no true Justice Department review of his case. We also found out that by giving him a commutation, they had actually hurt an ongoing SDNY investigation because SDNY had been trying to flip him and get him out of prison so he would cooperate in this other investigation that they were doing. By commuting his sentence, they removed all the leverage over him and the investigation floundered. So even before he came out of prison and was given freedom by Trump, it was something that really surprised us. Fast forward. He was arrested at least five times since he was set free by Trump. He was also accused by a judge of making these, these essentially illegal loans to cash strapped small businesses. And the thing that surprised us in the reporting is that we kept on reporting about these different times that he was getting in trouble with the law, but no one was doing anything about it. The U.S. attorney's office in Brooklyn wasn't doing anything about it. The judge wasn't doing anything about it. And it was only when the crimes became truly egregious did they step in because he was still on supervised release. Even though he had received a commutation, he was still, you know, essentially on probation. And finally someone in the Justice Department said, enough's enough. And he was thrown back in prison last year. And then yesterday he received this 27 month sentence.

C (10:27)

It seems that some of the violence that he carried out was against people that he knows, including a three year old. What do we know about his victims?

F (10:35)

He was accused of assaulting his father in law, who was trying to protect his daughter, Jonathan Braun's wife, as he tried to attack her. He was accused of attacking her. He was accused of assaulting a three year old. He was accused of sexually assaulting a nanny. He was accused of taking an IV pole and trying to hit a nurse with it at a hospital. Those are just the ones off the top of my head. There was like, you didn't need to be a criminologist or a federal prosecutor or anyone to see the pattern of behavior that was going on. And now he's, you know, is going to be in prison for the next two years.

C (11:17)

The insanity that Donald Trump ran on fighting crime when this is who he pardoned, is just gobsmacking. What is the impact, Andrew Weissman, on holding accountable someone that the president of the United States, past and current, has pardoned? I mean, is that why he was left roaming the streets, physically harming and threatening the people closest to him?

B (11:42)

Well, just think about the message to the Department of Justice right now with what's going on with sort of retribution and vindictive actions, not just prosecuting people, but also the firing and demotions. And so if you are in the department and somebody has been pardoned or had their sentence commuted, you're going to think long and hard about whether you're going to do something about it. Carol and Aaron in their book Injustice, talk about that and report about the effect on the FBI of the kind of abuse that happened during Trump 1.0 and how sort of cowed and scared the FBI was to take on what would normally be normal investigative steps. And so when you see this, that is the biggest concern you have, is that these things are being handed out willy nilly. And it sends the message that Liz talked about at the opening of this segment, which is that you really are saying that you have a green light to go forward. It puts a lot of pressure on state prosecutors to be picking up the slack here because remember, a federal pardon cannot in any way shape or form affect what a state does if the person has also violated state law.

C (13:08)

Teddy Donald Trump has also used his pardon power in his new sort of favorite grifting is one word used for it. Entrepreneur. Whatever it is he's doing in the crypto space, he's used his pardon power there. He seemed to deflect and suggest that his older sons, Donald Trump Jr. And Eric Trump, are more involved in the family crypto business than he is. But the fact is he's the one with the pardon power, and his pardons directly impact his own ventures in that space. What is sort of the word or the understanding on how easy it is to get a pardon if you're doing business or making money?

A (13:44)

For Trump, it's pretty easy. And the rules of the road are not difficult. Every time that we see a pardon come out from Donald Trump to a crypto executive who has pledged fealty to him, it emboldens other crypto executives to do the same, like keep. There's a lot of speculation right now, about someone like Sam Bankman Fried, someone who is a major Democratic donor, could someone like that get a pardon just by saying the right thing? So every single time one of these pardons comes out, it creates a path for the next pardon. And that's what I think the point of Trump that he's taking right now is he's making clear that, you know, it's not really that difficult. The rules of the road are pretty self evident.

C (14:21)

What is the impact on the broader industry of Donald Trump as a president pardoning criminality inside an industry that's pretty opaque to anyone outside of it?

A (14:32)

Well, Trump's entire approach on crypto has been precisely to be transactional. Right. That's given the, a lot of executives made them feel like, well, if we donate to Trump, maybe he'll take a lighter hand on the industry. And that's what's happened with campaign contributions. And now it's happening with pardons. It is. Trump was not somebody who I think knew a lot about crypto a year or so ago, but from everyone I've talked to who's been an interface between Trump and the industry, he is so excited about it because they're donating, because they're supporting him, who doesn't like to be liked. And now we're sort of seeing the, what you get when you make the payment is you get things like pardons, you get things like friendly crypto industry policy. That sort of is what's happening right now.

C (15:15)

I mean, Andrew Weiss, when we cover the assault on the rule of law in terms of the proactive things he's doing, right? Using the Department of Justice to investigate and prosecute people like Tish James and Jim Comey recover the use of Donald Trump's sort of executive power to run the department in ways that no one ever contemplated before except Nixon covertly. As Judge Wolf said this week, we probably don't have a good enough understanding of the way he's destroying the rule of law by both dismantling the Department of Justice's Public Corruption unit and then doling out pardons inside a specific. Just take crypto for one inside an industry and then also playing with the regulatory levers of power. How do you ever put the genie back in the bottle if you wanted to?

B (16:08)

You know, this is such a perfect example to sort of take the lens back for a moment of our founders gave pardon power to the president, but they obviously never expected that it would be used this way. And they thought wrongly, as it turns out, that if it was used completely to undermine the rule of law in a way, frankly, that even a king could not do that analogy to. He's being like a king. It's actually worse than that. And they thought that if somebody who was in politics was going to act this way that it wouldn't be tolerated by Congress and the person would be impeached and there would be a trial and they'd be convicted. They didn't think that this would happen. Otherwise you wouldn't have had had this kind of blank check. Pardon power and Donald Trump is very good at figuring out where the fissures are, where there are, where he has power and leverage. And the pardon power is one. But it is a real sign of sort of the lack of checks and balances here because the answer here is not just obviously in the ballot box, but that takes time. It is that Congress can actually say this is such a gross abuse, especially when you play the clip, which is that he doesn't even know. I mean, either that is not true or it is the kind of thing that somebody should be held accountable for. What do you mean? You have somebody who is a CEO. These are people who when they commit crimes should be held to account. And so you really have a systemic problem and how the pardon power is.

C (17:54)

Now being wielded and zero visibility into what's being given as a thank you or as a sign of appreciation for freedom. Mike Schmidt, Teddy Schleifer, thank you for your reporting on this. Andrew Weissman, thank you for helping us make sense of it. When we come back, Donald Trump's pardoning of the people who tried to help him overturn an election he lost in 2020, coupled with his obsession with investigating the January 6th investigation. Investigators officer Michael Fanon will join our conversation on this topic next. Also ahead, the outrage over the brutality of Donald Trump's campaign of fear and mass deportations on the streets of America's cities. The latest accusation that ICE allegedly tear gassed in the vicinity of a one year old child. And later on this Veterans Day, reflecting on the true character of the men and women who have worn the uniform of our country. And the amazing moment when former President Barack Obama paid tribute to veterans. Deadline White House continues after a quick break. Don't go anywhere.

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Sitting atop all the lists for Donald Trump's pardoned candidates are all the people who aided his efforts to overturn his 2020 election loss. That was clear on day one when he pardoned more than 1500 January six insurrectionists with his latest batch of pardons. A massive list of political allies who tried to subvert the election is on them. Politico notes that Trump is signaling this quote, if you do it again, I'll protect you. The extraordinarily broad pardon is largely symbolic because Trump can only pardon people for federal crimes, and some of the recipients still face state level criminal charges. But Politico reports this quote the mass pardon, the first in history to cover people accused of criminality conspiring with the president who issued the pardon comes as Donald Trump continues to stoke false claims about rampant cheating by Democrats and sow doubts about the integrity of future elections. And his opponents see the pardon as a permission slip for similar efforts in 2026 and 2028. Joining our coverage, former D.C. metropolitan Police officer Michael Fanon was one of the officers who defended the United States Capitol and everybody who works inside of it from Donald Trump's supporters turned violent insurrectionists on January 6th. Thank you so much for being here. I watch enough of your content to know exactly how you feel about the pardons, but just help US understand how big of an F you it is to anyone who protected the Democrats and Republicans inside the Capitol on January 6th to see Donald Trump erase all this history.

A (22:07)

I mean, to be honest with you, it's just something that I've grown accustomed to and come to expect from the administration. What, what concerns me about it is, and I'm going to quote my friend Glenn Kirschner, who wrote an excellent piece today on Substack about this very topic. And just like the pardons of the 1500 insurrectionists, which you know was a dog whistle to anyone that's willing to commit acts of violence on Donald Trump's behalf, that I will absolve you of all criminality. This is a recruiting call to anybody that may be willing to interfere with future elections on behalf of Donald Trump or at Donald Trump's wishes, that I again will absolve you of criminality in these matters. And I've got your back. It's like Ed Martin said when he first took over that responsibility at the Department of Justice, no MAGA left behind.

C (23:05)

Where does that leave the rest of us?

A (23:11)

Oh, I mean, I think we have, we have a criminal justice system in this, in this country that targets people that stand in opposition to the administration and absolves those that commit crimes on behalf of the administration. I think it's as clear and simple as that.

C (23:32)

What do you, how do you sort of explain what it's like to be the victim of a crime and then on the day Trump's inaugurated, have that crime erased? I mean, you were in the Department of Justice system. And if you're a victim, and not just you, but anyone who was swatted or a victim of a violent crime, once Trump pardons that person, the crime basically ceases to exist. What is the rewriting of all this criminal conduct on the part of the insurrectionists themselves and all of the people who were pardoned yesterday? What does that do to reality or our sense of reality?

A (24:10)

Well, first of all, I hope no American has to experience what I've experienced in that I've gone from dedicating 20 years of my life to the profession of law enforcement only to become a victim of the Department of Justice and of our criminal justice system and have nowhere to seek relief. You know, I don't call the police anymore when I'm threatened or antagonized because I know that they're not going to do anything. And they have said as much. I mean, I've reported threats to the FBI. Nothing, absolutely nothing. And so I don't depend on the criminal justice system in this country to keep me and my family safe. So that's the first component. The second one is that the rewriting of the history books, painting me as the perpetrator, as the villain, painting other police officers as the villain and painting the insurrectionists, the traitors to this country as the heroes in the story allows more people to feel that it's okay to threaten me, to threaten members of my family and to direct violent, hate filled acts at us and feel justified in doing so. Because Donald Trump in the Republican Party says that that's okay. Because he's a villain, he's a traitor. You guys are the heroes.

C (25:38)

What do you think is coming next? Because with Trump, it's always, that's not always competently carried out, but to your point, it's been very systematic. What do you think he envisions for the members of the January 6 select committee who he's also threatened or menaced with taunts largely on social media?

A (26:03)

Indictments. I think you'll see indictments coming down the pike for everyone that was participated in that committee, specifically Liz Cheney, Adam Kinzinger, who I think he views as the ultimate traitors, and that they were Republicans themselves and they lent bipartisan credibility to that, that investigation. But I think he's going to target each and every person that participated. I have no doubt in my mind that, that he will in some way try to target me. But I say bring it on. I look forward to a day in.

E (26:45)

Court.

A (26:47)

You know, getting to go up against the Department of Justice that, that I worked hand in hand with for 20 years.

C (26:56)

Michael Fanon, your voice always cuts through. I want to ask you one slightly unrelated question because you've been sort of in the political arena over the last year. What are your thoughts about Tuesday night's election victories for Democrats?

A (27:12)

Well, as somebody who participated pretty heavily in the Virginia elections, going and speaking at different political events, I will say that Tuesday was a mandate. Let me rephrase that. It was a demand. It was a demand by the American people that the Democratic Party, which is the only real legitimate party that we have left in this country, fight this administration. You know, I'm not going to say anything surprising here. Nobody that I spoke to was excited about an Abigail Spanberger for governor. What they wanted was somebody to fight this administration. And seeing the Democratic Party capitulate makes me lose hope that there will be a political resolution to what's happening, what so many Americans are suffering under right now in this administration, which is why I've gotten involved.

C (28:20)

I want to ask you would you take it aside? I saw a lot of your events. They're awesome. Would you go one step further and become a candidate for office yourself at any level? No, no.

A (28:34)

My my my lane is is holding elected officials accountable and re educating the American people that you have the power, that your voice matters and that you need to use it. You have a responsibility to use it and you know we need to force force these elected officials to listen to we the people and to fight this administration.

C (29:10)

Michael Fanon voice is always welcome here. Thank you very much for joining me today. When we come back, more anger and outrage in Chicago after a 1 year old child is allegedly tear gassed by ice. Reaction from a local elected official is next.

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D (32:36)

Well, thank you for having me. What we heard about this incident, as you can see in that video, is that this was a very young family that was doing what many Illinoisans and Chicagoans have tried to do every single day while the Bobino show has been in Chicago descending chaos, terror into the lives of our families. This is a family that was just trying to get groceries at Sam Club, at Sam's Club. But again, they have proven time and time again, one, that they are heartless, two, that they are indiscriminate in their technique, and three, that even when they say they, quote, unquote, have a target, that their techniques are aggressive, violent, and often impact a wider set of community around us. And so in this instance, this young family is not alone. They have unfortunately released tear gas within 50ft of our schools, within feet of emergency departments and all kinds of spaces and Halloween parades in residential areas, because this is how the Bovino show plays out. It likes to make itself appear big and mighty. And what we actually know is quite the opposite. You shouldn't have to attack the most vulnerable in our community, our schools, our daycares, our children, our mothers, our caregivers, for you to feel so big and powerful. But that really demonstrates what I think is the true story in Chicago, that community residents have risen together to fight back Authoritarianism that we have risen together to bring a community of care. That should make Bovino and his show move on because Chicago has resisted and will continue to resist and organize.

C (34:20)

In Chicago, as you're pointing out, there's a community that has come together, led by a governor and a mayor and folks like yourself at every level to protect the most vulnerable, including judges. Is it your sense that ICE agents are defying judges orders in their conduct in Chicago and Illinois?

D (34:42)

I think it is clear that they have absolutely moved to defy these orders. Right. They were told don't tear gas. And then same day, next day and every day on have continued operationalizing the use of tear gas in our communities. They've been told wear body cameras and again, they haven't. But that's where community members in the organizing of rapid response networks all throughout the state of Illinois have proven witness to the atrocities that they have committed. And this video and documentation, we have a really wide library that has helped in part with the legal defense of what is occurring in our courts. It will serve for the accountability that we will continue to push for, for what they have done to families and people here in Chicago and Illinois. And that's for everyday citizens and their cooperation to keep each other safe. Are heroes for filming, for documenting, for taking photos and videos. That is why we have been able to resist, because we have a true account and record. Because the other thing that the Bovino show does is it lies. Right? It says, like you just demonstrated in that screen grab. We do not tear gas looking at the face of that poor baby crying and sobbing. You tear gas children. You tear gas schools. You tear gas faces. Liars. Freaking liars.

C (36:02)

State Senator Garcia Guzman. To be continued. Thank you very much for joining us today. When we come back, a different way to honor the service of America's veterans. Our friend, Lieutenant General Mark Hertling will be our guest. Try this this Veterans Day. Extend our appreciation beyond the usual thank you for your service to consider a more meaningful, thoughtful example for our country's best and brightest, the one they set for the rest of us. Our friend Lieutenant General Mark Hertling calls it the quiet lesson of Veterans Day. In a piece he published today in the Bulwark, he writes this quote. Our country endures not because of what we possess, but because of what we believe and how we act when belief demands sacrifice and serving each other. The men and women who call themselves veterans remind me that a republic survives only when its citizens choose responsibility over indifference, sacrifice over convenience, community over isolation. They remind me that we, the people is not a slogan. It's a commitment. Joining me now, retired U.S. army Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. He's the author of the book if I Don't Return A Father's Wartime Journal, which is available for pre sale right now. General, what are your thoughts today on Veterans Day? I'm going to read more from your piece, but because we turn to you on some of the most disturbing stories that we cover, including Donald Trump's efforts to politicize an institution you love dearly and most of the American people revere. How does that collide with your thoughts and the beautiful things you write on this Veterans Day?

E (37:44)

Well, Nicole, I'm going to shock you by telling you that it was your program that inspired this article. A few weeks ago, I was watching your show and you had two panelists guests on that were having a debate. One was saying it was a botched policy. And there's so many of those botched policies, I don't remember which one it was. But one of your guests was saying, this is not who we are. The other guest was saying, no, no, no, this is exactly who we are. This is who we've been since the beginning of our nation. And struck me that that's not true, that every generation gets to choose who we are and who we aspire to be. And in going into Veterans Day, I didn't want to do the normal cliches of thank you for your service, which is, you know, it's ubiquitous in these days. I wanted to take a look at the individuals that I served with during my 38 year career in uniform. And I just reflected back on all the people, all the faces and said these were individuals who came from all parts of society. They came together, they changed because of training and because of self assessment and growth. And they not only went through basic training and learned rifle marksmanship and first aid and land navigation, they also learned how to have a better sense of character, how to adhere to values and how to be better people as they had dedicated their life to sacrifice. So that's what I wanted to write about, is the individuals that I knew, the thousands of soldiers that I've dealt with over that four decades of service and just proclaim that it is America because they aspire to be something better than where they started. And that's what we should all be doing right now.

C (39:29)

You write about two things that comes up in just about every study of and conversation about how to fight authoritarianism, and that is to be in service of each other and to guard against isolation. And I wonder if you can just talk a little bit about how the military teaches us that or models that.

E (39:52)

Yeah, it's great. Nicole. For anyone who's been in the military, of the 1% of Americans that have served today, they know as soon as they get off that bus in basic training, the first thing a drill sergeant does is pick out their battle buddies. So you go through that 10 weeks of basic training in the army or the Marines or any other service with someone next to you, so you know that that person's going to hold you accountable. You have to hold them accountable. So if you're late for the formation and and the drill sergeant is yelling at you, he's also yelling at your battle buddy to make sure you never do it again. And that accountability for one another, for building from an individual into a team because the military is a team sport, it's an all weather sport. And it's something that you don't get excuses to do. The kinds of things that you're asked to do in defense of the country and in partnering with one another, it goes from singular to small teams to large teams to defense of the nation. And I think that's what some of us have forgotten in America, that we're not alone in all this, that we should be held accountable, that we should be responsible for each other and that we should build community and do the kinds of things that contribute to success and contribute to our objectives rather than just trying to go it alone and go on an attack against the other side as if they're enemies.

C (41:15)

So I feel like this is a conversation we have to platform around the table. I know exactly what conversation you're thinking of. So when you're in, have a longer conversation because I think we call on you in an urgent breaking news context and there's so much news that pertains to your expertise, but you're making a bigger point about something that could be proactively protective against a creep towards something un American and undemocratic. And I appreciate that. I appreciate the nod to conversations that happen here and I hope the conversations business to be continued.

E (41:50)

It all gets back to who we want to be. Nicole and that's the important point. Thanks for having me. This has been fun talking about this as opposed to war and disaster and chaos.

C (42:00)

But stay free tomorrow because there's, there's more that Lieutenant General Margaret Ling, it's always a pleasure. Thank you for joining us today. When we come back, we'll show you what former President Barack Obama did today in service of Veterans Day to commemorate A group of veterans show it to you next to commemorate Veterans Day. This year, former President Barack Obama surprised and honored dozens of veterans aboard an honor flight from Madison, Wisconsin to Washington, D.C. as they arrived to visit the war memorials. Take a look.

A (42:36)

As we approach Veterans Day, I wanted.

C (42:38)

To stop by and just say thank.

A (42:41)

You for your extraordinary service to you, your family, the sacrifices that all of you made to protect our country is something that will always be honored and we are very grateful. And we also happen to welcome you with a 70 degree day in D.C. which doesn't always happen around here.

C (42:55)

That's the first time I've seen a president, former or current, greet and honor flight. And that is absolutely amazing. A commander in chief, a leader who's going to show up and tell you that your service was worth something. I think that's the important part. So I think it was a great thing for him.

B (43:10)

Last time I got to see a.

C (43:11)

President, it was Gerald Ford.

A (43:13)

How about that?

C (43:15)

Thank you.

F (43:17)

It was a joy, joy of my heart today to see all these people. It's good. We still got people. That's good.

C (43:30)

One more break. We'll be right back. This week on the Best People podcast, my guest is the host of the wildly popular Prophetee podcast, Scott Galloway. Scott's new book, Notes on Being a Man, is essential reading for everyone and anyone particularly tuned into or concerned about the crisis facing many young men and how to fix it.

A (43:55)

I think it's so important to have these stories because one of the things I think we're really missing in our nation right now, my books about masculinity and I think one of the legs of the stool of masculinity is protection. And I feel like we've lost that. I think we've, some of our leaders have conflated incorrectly and dangerously masculinity with coarseness and cruelty and have skipped the whole protection part of masculinity. And our budgets reflect our values. 20% of the nation is under the age of 18, but 40% of SNAP recipients are under the age of 18. That reflects a value on the part of both parties that we've decided, we've made a conscious decision that there's going to be double the number of hungry people under the age of 18 who are, you know, it genuinely is not their fault. So I feel as if our nation has moved from a sense of protection and a sense of empathy and a sense of trying to give everyone a shot of being in the top 10% and instead doubled down on this notion that we'd rather just have a small number of freakishly remarkable or fortunate kids, so I think it's important to tell these stories.

C (45:10)

To listen to the entire conversation with Scott Galloway, just scan the QR code on your screen or download wherever you get your podcasts. I'd love to hear what you think. You can also watch the full interview on YouTube now by scanning the QR code on your screen right now or heading to msnbc.com thebestpeople thank you for letting us into your homes. We are grateful.

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