Erika Kirk on Why She Forgave Her Husband’s Killer

Summary

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DealBook Summit Podcast: Erika Kirk on Why She Forgave Her Husband’s Killer

Host: Andrew Ross Sorkin, The New York Times
Guest: Erika Kirk, CEO of Turning Point USA
Date: December 4, 2025
Theme: Forgiveness after tragedy, the legacy of Charlie Kirk, and the future of civil discourse in America

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Main Theme / Purpose

This episode delivers an emotional and probing conversation between Andrew Ross Sorkin and Erika Kirk, widow of Turning Point USA founder Charlie Kirk. Just months after Kirk's assassination—a seismic event in American political life—Erika discusses her public act of forgiveness toward her husband’s killer, her plan to carry on his legacy by leading Turning Point USA, and what it means to pursue genuine dialogue in a bitterly divided nation. The discussion touches on faith, the complexities of political activism, gender roles, and the power and pitfalls of social media.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Forgiveness in the Wake of Tragedy

• Public Forgiveness at the Funeral

  • Erika reveals her choice to forgive Charlie's assassin was deeply personal and rooted in her Christian faith.
  • She emphasizes that forgiveness is not weakness:
    • "Forgiveness is for those of you who've been wronged, you know what it feels like…It frees you from a poison… You're truly, truly free." (Erika, 06:43)
  • The funeral speech’s pivotal moment—her statement of forgiveness—was spontaneous, not pre-planned:
    • "That part I specifically left open…That was a game time, exact second to second moment, that was not something pre planned." (Erika, 07:44)
  • Erika underscores that justice is a function of government, but personal forgiveness is not condoning wrongdoing.

• Faith as the Foundation

  • Erika attributes her capacity to forgive directly to her faith:
    • "That's the Lord. That's my faith. That's…everyone's own journey." (Erika, 07:11)
  • She doesn’t expect everyone to understand this perspective, acknowledging the deep rage and pain she felt.

2. Charlie's Legacy: Civil Discourse & Debate

• Promoting Dialogue Over Division

  • Both Erika and Andrew emphasize the importance Charlie placed on respectful conversation—even amid disagreement:
    • "Charlie was the perfect example of let's have a conversation…You should…have a Democrat and a Republican metaphorically duking it out…and then say, let's go get lunch afterwards." (Erika, 04:56)
  • Erika notes that Charlie worked to bridge ideological divides and set a high bar for campus debates:
    • "He would say, if you disagree with me, come to the front of the line…He would put the microphone down…out of respect for the person who was speaking." (Erika, 11:01)
    • "Charlie didn't attack people. He went after ideas and he wouldn't tell people what to say. He would encourage them how to think." (Erika, 13:08)

• The Importance of the First Amendment and Communication

  • Erika highlights the current breakdown in communication and the dangers of "cancel culture."
  • She asserts that the path to national healing runs through honest dialogue:
    • "If you really want to heal this country…you're going to have to do it by talking to each other. You can't keep canceling one another thinking that's going to resolve everything." (Erika, 13:43)

• Notable Commentary from Ezra Klein

  • Andrew reads Klein’s op-ed:
    • "You can dislike much of what Kirk believed…Kirk was practicing politics exactly the right way…A taste for disagreement is a virtue in a democracy." (Andrew quoting Ezra Klein, 14:25)

• Charlie's Openness to Being Wrong

  • Erika confirms that Charlie would admit when he was wrong or needed to research an issue more:
    • "He would say it, 'I haven’t thought about that… I need to look into that.'…debate to him was facts." (Erika, 15:33)

3. Personal Reflections: Family, Gender, and Career

• Balancing Family and Leadership

  • Erika shares her own upbringing by a single mother and being unafraid to lead while raising children:
    • "There really is no such thing as balance…there's always going to be a give and take." (Erika, 18:48)
    • "Pain…can be morphed into a form of purpose that you see will outlive you." (Erika, 19:37)
  • She encourages authentic life choices for women, reflecting on her shift from “boss babe” New York life to building a family-focused legacy with Charlie:
    • "If I would have stayed on that path… I would have lost out on some of the most beautiful moments of my life… Charlie was right." (Erika, 20:29)

• Serving Each Other in Marriage

  • She clarifies that “serving your husband” was mutual:
    • "He served me also. He would ask 'How can I serve you?' We would ask it to each other." (Erika, 18:27)

• Raising Children in the Spotlight and Social Media

  • Erika is cautious about social media, especially for her kids, and describes stepping back after Charlie’s murder:
    • "They're not getting a phone for a very long time…I took it all off my phone. I don't even have news apps… I let other people post for me…" (Erika, 22:11)
    • "When you kiss the bloody dead body of the person that you love, it pales in comparison to being called xyz." (Erika, 22:58)
  • She and Charlie observed the Sabbath by switching off devices:
    • _"On Friday night…he would turn off his phone and he would shove it in the junk drawer and he would say, 'shabbat shalom.'" (Erika, 25:51)

4. Controversy and Political Debate

• Responding to Critiques of Charlie’s Views

  • Erika argues that many controversial statements were taken out of context:
    • "When you listen fully…that disagreement in our country is what democracy is all about…He was trying to get people to think a little bit differently." (Erika, 27:24)
  • She does not shy away from uncomfortable dialogue nor refuse to address political disagreements.

• Views on Gun Violence after Personal Tragedy

  • Erika remains a supporter of the Second Amendment but emphasizes mental health as a root issue:
    • "That's not a gun problem. That's a human, deeply human problem. That is a sole problem. That is a mental… deeper issue." (Erika, 30:44)

5. The Future of the Republican Party and Turning Point USA

• Party Dynamics and Intra-party Debate

  • Erika discusses the "shuffling and mixing up" within the Republican Party—infighting as a precursor to cohesion:
    • "There is a lot of shuffling and mixing up… infighting… But I think it's healthy because…usually you come to a point of understanding of this is what we believe in." (Erika, 32:21 and 33:44)
  • She advocates for a return to basics and preparation for future election cycles.

• Influence of Female Voters and Government’s Role

  • Erika comments on why many young women might look to government for security:
    • "I think there's a tendency…where you almost look to the government as a form of replacement for certain things…What I don't want…is women…put off having a family…because you're relying on the government to support you…" (Erika, 35:28)

• On Endorsing Political Figures

  • Erika acknowledges friendship and endorsement of JD Vance but stresses focusing on the present achievement before looking ahead:
    • "I do have to say yes. I mean, we adore JD…But…I would ask that we enjoy the fact that…my husband worked so hard…" (Erika, 36:00)

• Relationship with the Current President

  • Erika affirms her personal friendship and ability to respectfully disagree with the president:
    • "Put aside politics…If I had an issue with someone, I would say that to them directly. And I would expect the same respect..." (Erika, 37:16)

6. Charlie's Role as Peacemaker

• Examples of Peacemaking
  • Erika recounts Charlie’s hope for Trump and Elon Musk to reconcile, which happened posthumously at a public event:
    • "He told me…I pray…and I have this feeling that by… Christmas…they're going to be friends again… I'll never forget seeing the photo of Elon and the President shaking hands…" (Erika, 38:01)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "The answer to hate is not hate."
  — Andrew recalling Erika’s funeral speech (03:34)

• "Forgiveness …frees you to be able to think clearly and have a moment where your heart is free and you’re not bound to evil."
  — Erika Kirk (06:43)

• "Charlie didn’t attack people. He went after ideas and…[would] encourage them how to think."
  — Erika Kirk (13:08)

• "If you really want to heal this country, and I know Andrew, you feel the same way, to heal this country, you’re going to have to do it by talking to each other…you have the gift of communication. We’re speaking beings, and we need to get back to that as a country."
  — Erika Kirk (13:43)

• "When you kiss the bloody dead body of the person that you love, it pales in comparison to being called xyz."
  — Erika Kirk on dealing with online vitriol (22:58)

• "That’s not a gun problem. That’s a human, deeply human problem. That is a soul problem. That is a very deeper issue."
  — Erika Kirk on violence (30:44)

• "If you can only agree on 5%, that is…better than zero."
  — Erika Kirk (37:16)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Charlie's Legacy and Erika's Forgiveness: 02:11 – 07:08
• Decision to Forgive and Spiritual Foundation: 07:10 – 08:48
• On Civil Discourse and Debate: 11:01 – 15:56
• Erika’s Family and Leadership Insights: 16:14 – 22:11
• Social Media, Public Life, and Grieving: 22:11 – 26:56
• Policy Disagreement and Gun Violence: 27:22 – 30:58
• GOP Future and Turning Point’s Mission: 31:23 – 36:51
• Peacemaking Example (Trump and Musk): 37:55 – 39:04

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Tone & Language

The conversation is direct, sometimes raw, but always respectful — balancing deep personal vulnerability with clear-eyed political discussion. Erika speaks with conviction and warmth, blending grief, faith, and a call to civility.

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Summary

This episode is a testament to personal resilience and public leadership after tragedy. Erika Kirk’s account provides an intimate look at how forgiveness, faith, and a shared commitment to dialogue can shape not only a personal journey but also the course of a political movement. For listeners seeking hope for civil discourse and understanding in polarized times, this conversation is both sobering and inspiring.

Transcript

[A]

This episode was recorded at the 2025 DealBook Summit. This year's Dealbook Summit sponsors include premier sponsor Accenture, associate sponsors U.S. bank Vanguard, Invesco, Q. Q. Q. And University of Michigan, supporting sponsor Capital One and contributing sponsor Invest Puerto Rico.

We can agree on how to disagree, and that's not by murdering someone because you don't believe what they believe. Charlie was the perfect example of let's have a conversation.

[B]

This is Andrew Oz Sorkin with the New York Times, and you're listening to interviews from our annual Dealbook Summit recorded on December 3rd in New York City.

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

Good evening, everybody.

Erica, thank you so much for joining us. Erica is our final speaker today and we are going to have an emotional conversation. We do have Kleenex. Not for her, but for me. Charlie Kirk was one of the most influential people of the last decade in the Republican Party, galvanized young men around the country that were vastly underappreciated by the media. In the 2024 election, at age 18, Charlie founded Turning Point USA, grew the organization to more than 4,000 chapters across high schools and college campuses, mobilizing the conservative movement through debate across the country at events and on social media. And Charlie Kirk was supposed to be here today. He was supposed to be part of a task force that we had been talking about for quite some time. And Charlie, as you all know, was murdered on September 10. His widow is here, Erica Kirk, and she has stepped in to take over as CEO of Turning Point. And she has very big plans for what it is going to be. And I just want to say it is such a privilege to have her on this stage with us today. So thank you.

You know.

Just a little bit of background for the room. I had met Charlie about a year ago, and.

For about a year we texted and we emailed about a lot of things. And you know this.

[A]

I do.

[B]

And we disagreed about a lot of things.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But we had the most respectful conversations that you could imagine about so many different topics. And we happened to text the weekend before he was killed.

I remember the day he was killed like it was yesterday, like you did. And I was devastated. You were devastated. I think so many parts of this country were devastated. And I've been thinking a lot about the role that he played for a certain group of people in this country, a role about how to interact about different topics. And there's a lot of controversial things that he said and did. But I wanted to talk to all to you about all of this and about how in many ways we can potentially Even consider bringing the country together, if you can imagine that. And I sat and watched the funeral by video and I watched you.

And I sat in awe, to be honest with you, as I think lots of the nation did, when you forgave the assassin and you said, I forgive him. The answer to hate is not hate. And it was at that moment I said to myself, I need to talk to Eric. I need to understand that. I need to understand what you've just gone through and.

What led you to be able to say that aloud. And so that's where I wanted to start before I say, how are you?

[A]

Thank you. Well, first, thank you for having me here. Thank you, all of you, for being here. My husband adored you. And it was such a beautiful.

Unconventional friendship in a way where he was outside the echo chamber of his realm because he genuinely appreciated you as an individual and how you internalized things and how you were able to articulate them to Charlie for them, for that moment, for him to then be able to.

Think about certain things a little differently. But prepare him also for those campus visits so that he could take a moment to say, you know what, okay, so this is what they're talking about, this is what they're thinking about. Let's dive a little deeper here. But he deeply appreciated the fact that you are a space for him to be like, what are your thoughts on this? I know we don't agree on this, but that's what's so beautiful about this country. And that's what was so beautiful about your guys friendship, was that that is what this country should always be about. You should, you know, like. And I'm sure some of you remember the days where you could have a Democrat and a Republican metaphorically duking it out on the floor, but then say, let's go get lunch afterwards. I mean, could you imagine if AOC and Nancy Mace were like, let's go get Subway after having a dialogue, you know, a heated debate. But we even saw that minor olive branch that with Mamdani and Trump, there's something really special about the inner workings of an American. And that friendship that you and Charlie had was one of those points. And so at the funeral, for me.

You could go any direction in that moment. I wasn't up there.

For anyone else, but for the Lord and my husband. Those were the two people in my quote unquote audience. And yes, Charlie would have forgiven. It's not because you're weak. It's not because you think what the assassin did was correct. That's the exact opposite it's, forgiveness is.

For those of you who've been wronged, you know what it feels like to forgive someone and in a way where it frees you from a poison and it frees you to be able to think clearly and have a moment where your heart is free and you're not bound to evil and you're not thinking emotionally, you're thinking logically because you're free. You're truly, truly free.

[B]

So can I ask you a question?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

How did you get to that point?

[A]

That's, that's the Lord. That's my faith. That's. And I, and I don't expect everyone to understand that forgiveness and your faith and your own personal walk of life, that's, that's everyone's own journey. That's not something that you just wake.

[B]

Up overnight and I imagine you have to be full of rage and emotion at least.

[A]

Of course, that was the love of my life. Of course. Of course.

[B]

And so when this happens and you're thinking about.

Did you write that speech?

[A]

I did. I write all of my.

[B]

You wrote it all down.

[A]

Yes, but that part I specifically left open. If you look at my speech notes, that part I prayed on so heavily beforehand and that was a game time, exact second to second moment, that was not something pre planned. That was not. Because I'm not going to say something I don't truly believe. And when I prayed on it, I knew that the Lord would really press it on my heart. And if I was meant to say it because I truly meant it and believed it, then I was going to say it. But I was not going to pre.

[B]

Plan that we're not going to get into politics yet. But I do want to ask a political question and maybe it'll be considered political because right after you said that, the president spoke as you know, and he said that this is where I disagreed with Charlie. He said he did not hate his opponents, he wanted the best for them. And that's where I disagreed with Charlie. I hate my opponent and I don't want the best for them.

And that's why I say we're going to, we'll get into politics in a moment. But in that moment, did you think, what did you think?

[A]

Well, there's a difference between the government is meant to play out justice. So that's how I interpret that from a justice standpoint. But to me, ultimately it's the Lord that, then the Lord that serves ultimate justice. Again, I am not going to critique anyone's personal journey of their faith. That is something that is so private and personal with the Lord or whatever religion that you. That you believe. But to me, it's one of those things where.

You can't. You have to just.

Let me put it this way. Put your fist out for a second. When I do this, what are you doing? You're pushing back.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now, when I do this, don't push back. I can hold. I can now hold peace with you. When you're in constant, combative mode, you don't leave a bridge point for some form of peace. Charlie was so good at being a peacemaker. I know some might not agree, but you can see now, in Technicolor with him not being here, how much he was a bridge. And now that there's that void, you really see it in full display.

[B]

Okay, so here's. I want to ask you about that, actually, because.

I saw the peacemaker side of him.

In the kinds of dialogue that we had. But I was also very cognizant.

Of the disruptor side of him insofar as one of the ways that I think he succeeded actually in creating so much interest in what he was doing was debating with people. Right. And doing it on social media and doing it at campuses where people really engaged with it. But that required not necessarily being the peacemaker. And so I'm curious how you think about those two sides, if you know what I mean.

[A]

No, I do. I do. And the interesting thing is that a lot of the things my husband said or did was taken out of context. But when you watch his full length commentary and debate and civil discourse back to back on campus, he not only engaged with the students, but he would put the microphone down and he would say a few things. First, if you disagree with me, come to the front of the line. Second, when he put that microphone down, it was out of respect for the person who was speaking. And if someone was heckling or saying anything in the crowd, there is video proof of this. He would say, please have some respect. I know you don't agree with them. That's okay. But we're here to have dialogue in our country. Now more than ever. We are facing the most.

Lack of communication we've ever had. And Charlie was a peacemaker for that because he knew that the only way to have true discourse and dialogue was to do just that. You can't silence people.

Even though people think that that's.

How you do. You don't have to agree on everything. I'm sure a lot of you in this room don't agree with several points that I agree with. But maybe we agree on 5% and that's better than zero. That's a starting point. But Charlie knew that. And Charlie would give the opportunity for people to be able to dig in a little bit deeper and have food for thought of, you know what, I see where you're coming from, but have you thought of this? Charlie didn't attack people. He went after ideas and he wouldn't tell people what to say. He would encourage them how to think. And that's what was so powerful about his on campus dialogues, because he didn't have. Yes, he had protesters there. It's because.

Unfortunately, the truth can be offensive. It's the truth.

But he wanted to make sure that everyone had a chance to have a form of dialogue and discourse. And I know, again, we don't agree on a lot of things, but we can agree on how to disagree.

And that's not by murdering someone because you don't believe what they believe.

Murdering someone because you don't.

You don't believe in what they have to say. Charlie was the perfect example of let's have a conversation. And so he started that conversation. And that's why with Turning Point USA and our whole team, we are going to keep that conversation going and that dialogue going because it's so important. If you really want to heal this country, and I know that, Andrew, you feel the same way, to heal this country, you're going to have to do it by talking to each other. You can't keep canceling one another thinking that that's going to resolve everything. And that's what's so beautiful about the First Amendment, too, is that you have the gift of communication. We're speaking beings, and we need to get back to that as a country.

[B]

I want to read you something that Ezra Klein wrote, op ed in the New York Times. This was following Charlie's murder. Said, you can dislike much, much of what Kirk believed. And the following statement is still true. Kirk was practicing politics exactly the right way. He was showing up to campuses and talking with anyone who would talk to him. He was one of the era's most effective practitioners of persuasion. When the left thought its hold on the hearts and minds of college students was nearly absolute, Kirk showed up again and again to break it. A taste for disagreement is a virtue in a democracy. My question to you, and I actually remember talking to him about this, was the idea of what debate is.

How open.

Was he or all of us really to debate? Meaning we would have discussions back and forth about lots of things and he would say, I was wrong. And I would say he was wrong. And da, da, da, da.

How often do you think in the context of a debate he would change his mind?

[A]

Oh, he, He. He would say it. He would say, you know, I haven't thought about that, or, you know what? I need to look into that. He would say it. He would say it. And to him, debate wasn't about emotion. I mean, everyone has an opinion. Debate to him was facts. It was, okay, I understand you feel this way, but why do you feel that way?

The art of true debate is not there as much as it used to be. And that's why I think it's so powerful to make sure we even bring that back on college campuses.

[B]

Charlie once said that he's a moderate compared to you. What does that mean?

[A]

Him and I believe. And we both had very similar viewpoints on everything. I think it just boils down to when we got married, he was a little libertarian on. On some. On points. Forgive me if I don't have them off the top of my head, but when we got married, I saw within him become more. He was always conservative, but more conservative because when you become a father and when you become a parent, you're realizing that you're living for someone in something so much bigger than yourself. You're living for your family's legacy. You're living for your kids. You're living for your future grandchildren. He became more conservative, as did I once getting marri. Because you want a country that's for your children, that they're not renters of everything. They actually own property, they own land. They're invested in this country. They're proud to be a citizen. They're proud of what they've built and what their family has built. And so hand in hand, him and I both were able to see that on full display. And that's why he would tell so many young people get married and have children. And it wasn't because he was trying to be misogynistic or anything from that nature. He was saying it because he loved being married and he loved our babies, and he wanted other people to feel what that was like to. To be able to know what it's like when you come home and your wife is excited to see you. And, you know, you guys have that. That beautiful symphony of a relationship where it's not one versus the other. And. And it's literally a supportive, beautiful covenant of what true family is. And. And Charlie loved that. He loved it.

[B]

I got a question for you, though, on that topic, which is, I Work with a number of fabulous female reporters. And we were talking about this interview coming up.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And they said they wanted me to ask you this, actually, because you've urged, as he has, women not to delay building families.

[A]

I beg your pardon?

[B]

You have urged women not to delay having families. And you've talked about serving your husband and.

[A]

Well, he served me also. He would ask, how can I serve you? We would ask it to each other.

[B]

And a number of them said, ask her, please ask her how we should. How you think about your career and now that you're going to be taking over Turning Point and balancing family and.

What your view is of that.

[A]

No, it's a great question. It's actually a very thoughtful question. I grew up with a mother who is an entrepreneur, who's her and I. My parents got divorced when I was very young, when I was five. And I saw that as a blueprint. So that does not scare me. Being a single mom, if you will, now, and running a company, there really is no such thing as balance. There's always going to be a give and take. But what this grieving process has taught me is that there is really no blueprint of what I'm going through. It's really a one of one type of situation. And.

It'S interesting because.

When you view.

How pain.

Can be morphed into a form of purpose that you see will outlive you again, it puts into perspective that this isn't about me. This isn't about my life. This is about the legacy my husband left behind. But it's also about how we're fighting the good fight for our country. And when it comes to career.

I will be fully transparent. I was fully bought into the.

Boss babe. I mean, I lived in Manhattan.

Charlie essentially plucked me out of the New York City orbit and was like, I have a healthier way of viewing things and looking at life and things like that. And he was right. He was right. And I. I remember thinking.

If I would have stayed on that path I was on, I would have lost out on some of the most beautiful moments of my life. Children, having a husband, being able to create and build something so incredible again. Yes, balance is an illusion. I bring my children to the office. I have them with me constantly. We have a phenomenal team. It doesn't just fall on my shoulders. Charlie was very good about creating and intentionally building a machine where it turns from founder led to vision led. And he shared everything with me. I knew his goals. I knew what his vision was for things. So this is not out of my orbit. This is not uncomfortable for me and it's not because I'm picking up a mantle that I understand and that I know the, that Charlie has entrusted to me, the team has entrusted to me, the Lord has entrusted to me. And I take that very seriously.

[B]

How do you think about living your life in such a public way? Meaning he lived his life on social media. In large part.

You were always a big part of that.

I watched you, I think it was on Thanksgiving.

Touring the office.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

About your Thanksgiving this past week.

And it was on social media and you were on social media. How easy is that for you? How hard is that for you? How easy or hard do you think that is for your kids? Maybe too early for them.

[A]

Very. They're not getting a phone for a very long time. It's interesting. Social media, like many things, it can be used for such good and it can be used for such evil. And Charlie and I both intentionally, especially after he was murdered, I took it all off my phone. I don't even have news apps on my phone. I have nothing on my phone. I will let other people post for me and siphon through those comments. That is not. I do not have the brain space for that. And it would not be healthy for me either. I get called so many names. I genuinely don't care. I really don't. I've told you this before. When you kiss the bloody dead body of the person that you love.

It pales in comparison to being called xyz.

Charlie understood the importance of social media, of how to reach a generation that was not paying attention to conventional news. It's the type of generation that is watching.

TikTok and X and Instagram, getting their news from influencers, not truly journalists. He knew that when he tapped into that, he wanted to be one of the rare voices that was a true North Star for a lot of a distinction between the brain rot that's out there and a very thoughtful and thinker led understanding of the world.

For me, when it comes to social media, I want it to be a space for encouragement. There is plenty other spaces on this Internet for people to have opinions, to be a political pundit, to be whatever you can be whatever you want on the Internet and you can hide behind a little egg or avatar or whatever you want it to be.

And for me, if I'm going to use any bit of my time on this earth, it would rather be encouraging people or harmonizing things or showing the true side of humanity and humanizing things than berating them. But for Instance, when I showed that room at our office, all those letters that poured in, all those gifts, I don't think people understand that those letters to me mean more than just fan mail. That's not what that is. Those letters to me are letters that I will never get from my husband again. For a Sabbath, he wrote me a letter every single day, Saturday. So those letters to me are letters that hold such a special place in my heart forever. And that's why I was so thankful to walk into that room. And that's why I also tell our staff, if you are having a rough day, please go into that room, open a letter, look at a gift, and see that your job is so much more important than just sitting behind a desk writing an email. You are making a huge difference within the youth and the movement. And remember that that's so important and that your life is so important, because those letters aren't just avatars and social media bots. Those are real humans and real people. And I think that that's why I wanted to showcase that on social media.

[B]

You guys used to actually turn social media. I mean, I know you said you now aren't looking at social media, you've taken the apps off, but for somebody who was in the social media world, apparently you guys used to actually turn the phones off, at least for a day.

[A]

Yes. Charlie would not. He would honor the Sabbath. And that's his first. His last book, he wrote Stop in the Name of God is all about honoring the Sabbath. And he. He had to tr. It. It did not happen overnight. This is something that he leaned into. And on Friday night, when he would get home from work, he would turn off his phone and he would shove it in the junk drawer, and he would say, shabbat Shalom. Shove it in the drawer. And he was full dad mode, fully with the kids, sports mode on Saturdays for college football. And he could breathe. He had this sacred moment to just breathe and to rest and get. Get away from the chatter, get away from the world, world, and just have a moment to understand that life is so much bigger than the to do list, than the small problem that you're facing that you'll laugh at five years or five months or five minutes from now. And he. He was really good about that.

[B]

Let me ask you about this, and I think we should just. If we could address it head on there. There are critiques, and there's stuff that I've seen him say over the years, as I said, where we would disagree about stuff. There was a period of time where he said, I have a radical view on this, and I can defend it. I've thought about it. He believed we made a huge mistake when we passed the Civil Rights act in 1960.

Did you agree with him on that?

[A]

It's interesting because, again, a lot of people took things that my husband said out of context. When you listen fully and you understand fully where he was coming from, that disagreement in our country is what democracy is all about. My husband, just because he would make certain statements did not mean that he was trying to rile up a certain part of people.

He was trying to, again, go after ideas, not people. He was trying to get people to think a little bit differently and to be able to have those discussions like he would have with you. And it's important. It's important. It might still make people uncomfortable, it might make dialogue uncomfortable, but there's growth in that. There's true growth in that.

[B]

You know, one of the debates that we would have is about gun violence in America. And I've written. He knew this a lot about mass shootings in America for a long time. And I had written a whole series of articles at one point about how we try to prevent some of these mass shootings by ultimately trying to use the banking system to be able to find suspicious activity before it. Before it happened. And he would say, andrew, you're missing it. He actually thought it was sort of an interesting idea. But he was a real believer, as you know, in the Second Amendment.

And I'm curious how you think today about gun violence in America, given what happened to him.

[A]

No, it's a thoughtful question. And I wouldn't wish upon anyone what I have been through, and.

I support the Second Amendment as well. I do.

But there's a bigger and much deeper conversation to all of that.

It's interesting because if you go on a campus and you ask a counselor, what is the number one or number two thing that these students are facing? They will always say mental health, anxiety, depression. Those are usually the top three. What Charlie knew, and he was trying to explain to students on campus, was that.

You have to understand that brain health is so important. How you eat, how you take care of yourself, how you nourish yourself, how you rest. He to him, it was much more deeper and intricate. And what I've realized through all of this is that.

You can have.

Individuals that will always resort to violence. And what I'm afraid of is that we are living in a day and age where they think violence is the solution to them. Not wanting to hear a different point of view.

That's not a gun problem.

That's a human, deeply human problem. That is a sole problem. That is a mental.

That is a very deeper issue.

[B]

We had Gavin Newsom out here just moments ago. He had done a podcast, as you know, with Charlie, and we've been talking to him about the future of the Democratic Party. And I'm curious, now that you're running Turning Point and thinking about the future of the Republican Party, I want to know what it is that you like about the party today, but also what you don't like about the party today.

[A]

That's a good question.

It's. It's. So I have to brag on our Turning Point Action team for a second. Tyler Boyer does a fantastic job running it. If any of you ever are in Arizona, we'd love to have you and host you at headquarters. We have a awesome building. We have six buildings, but one of them is Turning Point Action. And it almost looks like a war room of how it's set up with. With different polling numbers and who's running what race. And it's really awesome to see.

What I love about our party.

Is that we have a common thread of.

Wanting to seek truth.

What I find interesting about our party.

Is that.

Right now there is a lot of shuffling and mixing up. And I feel like when things are shuffling and mixing up, they're falling into place in a different way.

[B]

What do you mean by shuffling and mixing up?

[A]

I mean like infighting.

[B]

Yes. Who are you talking about?

[A]

Well, I mean, you can just pick out whatever name, but when there's infighting, just in general, I'm not talking about extensively just politicians. I'm talking about just in general, whether that's influencers, whether that's other voices within the right. There's a lot of uprising. But there's also something. And again, this goes back to my faith. And I just am going to preface this from the standpoint of I truly believe that the Lord uses everything. And so for me, what I see that as is opportunity for really getting back to the basics of what our party stands for and really be able to have this cohesive understanding of this is how we can be better prepared for 26, 28.

I think it's good to have in home arguments it iron some things out. I think it's important.

[B]

But is that in the influencer crowd, you think, or the political crowd? I mean, is this the Nick Fuentes, Tucker Carlson debate that we're talking about?

[A]

No, it's not. I'm talking about everything.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm talking about there is, ever since Charlie was murdered, there has been conversation across the whole right side of who believes this, what believes that, where are we standing on half of, you know, where is the youth going this direction? It's a conversation that's being had that is again, uncomfortable and riling things up. But I think it's healthy because once you have those conversations, then you come to a full point and maybe it takes a little while, but usually you come to a point of understanding of this is what we believe in.

[B]

What do you make, I was going to ask you actually, what do you make of Mamdani here in New York? And the reason I ask is he was somebody who really, actually was able to persuade the younger voter. I mean, he really captured. But obviously on the complete opposite end, if you will, of where someone like Charlie would have been.

[A]

You know, it's so interesting because I lived in Manhattan for a while and I loved this city.

I'm going to come at this from a female voter because a high percentage of his voters were female.

I think there's a tendency, especially when you live in a city like Manhattan where again, you are so career driven.

And you almost look to the government as a form of replacement for certain things.

Relationship wise, even.

You see things a little bit differently.

What I don't want to have happen is women, young women in the city look to the government as a solution to.

Put off having a family or a marriage because you're relying on the government to support you instead of being united with the husband where you can support yourself and your husband can support and you can guys all combine together. But I just find it so ironic and so interesting that a heavy percentage of the individuals that voted for him were female.

[B]

JD Vance.

Is he the person you plan to ultimately support for 2028?

[A]

He's a dear friend. My husband and him were very good friends. I think you remember when he supported him for Senate and they had a great time doing that race together and he supported JD for that. I do have to say yes. I mean, we adore JD and my husband was very vocal about endorsing him. But I do have to preface this from the standpoint of we have a tendency as humans to look past.

We have very short attention spans and very short memories. I would ask that we enjoy the fact that. And maybe you don't, but I will enjoy the fact that my husband worked so hard, so hard for this past election. And I think it would be.

I think it would behoove us to appreciate that hard work and Enjoy the fact that we do have a president in office that we, we voted for.

[B]

We just heard a lot of things from Gavin Newsom that were quite critical of this president. Are there things that you don't like about what the president does? I'm curious if there's things, I don't know if you feel like you could openly say, yeah, you know what? We think this is no good. Or this is no good.

[A]

No, I mean, you want to do a perfect example. One is when you just said he can't forgive or whatever, you know, but the president and I are dear friends. I have such a deep respect for him. And it's not even from. Put aside politics, please, just for a second, and understand from a human to human standpoint, again, if you can only agree on 5%, that is, like I said, better than zero. And for me, if I had an issue with someone, I would say that to them directly. And I would expect the same respect with someone who would feel the same way about me.

[B]

Let me ask you this. You had said that you considered Charlie a peacemaker.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Who has he brought peace together with?

[A]

Well, if you want to talk about internally, in our orbit.

He was so sad when Elon and President Trump.

Weren'T friends. They had that whole fallout. And I remember Charlie, he told me, he told our team, I pray, and I have this feeling that by the time Christmas comes around, and he said this back in August, especially by the time Christmas comes around, they're going to be friends again. And everyone just kind of was like, okay.

[B]

And.

[A]

Unfortunately, it took him being murdered.

[B]

But.

[A]

I'll never forget seeing the photo of Elon and the President shaking hands and Elon them putting on X for Charlie. And so.

That is something to me that even though he is in a different location.

The Lord can still use that.

[B]

Erica Kirk, everybody. Thank you for a fabulous, fabulous conversation. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.

Dealbook summit is a production of the new york times. This episode was produced by evan roberts, mixing by kelly piclo and katie mcmurran. Original music by daniel powell. The rest of the dealbook events team includes julie zahn, hillary coon, melissa tripoli, beth weinstein, angela austin, haley hess, dana prukowski, matt kaiser, chantal rainier and yen wei liu. Special thanks to sam dolnick, nita lassom, christina josa and maddie masiello.