DealBook Summit: Larry Fink and Brian Armstrong Are Not Worried About Another Crypto Winter

Podcast: DealBook Summit
Host: The New York Times (Andrew Ross Sorkin)
Guests: Larry Fink (CEO, BlackRock) & Brian Armstrong (CEO, Coinbase)
Date: December 4, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode brings together two financial industry titans—Larry Fink of BlackRock and Brian Armstrong of Coinbase—for a candid, rapid-fire conversation on the future of finance, crypto, regulation, tokenization, and the emerging role of technology in transforming markets. Despite past public disagreements, both leaders reflect on how their views and companies have evolved, discuss the impact of new US regulations, and debate the disruptive possibilities ahead. The tone is alternately frank, forward-looking, and at times playfully combative.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Shifting Views on Crypto and Institutional Adoption

• Fink’s Evolution ([02:34]–[03:54])

  • Once a crypto skeptic—famously calling crypto “an index for money laundering and thieves”—Fink explains his changed stance post-pandemic.
  • Quote: “I have very strong views, but that doesn’t mean I’m not wrong.” (Larry Fink, [03:41])
  • Fink distinguishes between his skepticism of Bitcoin in 2017, and his recognition since 2021–22 of broader crypto use cases.

• Armstrong on the Innovator’s Dilemma ([04:08]–[04:50])

  • Armstrong describes industry resistance as a classic case of the innovator’s dilemma, with some incumbents both lobbying against and quietly exploring crypto.
  • Quote: “It’s kind of funny, actually, because their lobbying team is fighting it in D.C., while the innovation arm is embracing it.” (Brian Armstrong, [04:21])

2. Bitcoin’s Role and Critiques from Traditionalists

• Responding to Buffett/Munger Skepticism ([05:02]–[05:45])

  • Armstrong counters the “rat poison” critique, arguing for Bitcoin’s durability as “digital gold.”
  • Quote: “There’s no chance that’s going to happen at this point… bitcoin is this new digital gold.” (Brian Armstrong, [05:10])
  • He frames crypto as a hedge in a decentralized world grappling with deficit spending.

• Fink: Bitcoin as an Asset of Fear ([07:22]–[08:48])

  • Fink sees Bitcoin primarily as a hedge held out of concern for financial or physical security.
  • Quote: “Bitcoin is an asset of fear… the long-term reason you own it is the debasement of financial assets.” (Larry Fink, [07:22])
  • Warns of Bitcoin’s ongoing volatility due to leverage and the influence of speculators.

3. Leverage & Regulatory Changes

• Leverage in Crypto Markets ([09:33]–[10:38])
  • Armstrong explains that most excessive leverage happens offshore, making the case for US regulation to decrease risk and promote legitimate market structure.
  • Quote: “2025 is the year crypto regulation went from gray market to well-lit establishment.” (Brian Armstrong, [09:56], echoing his statement at the episode's outset.)

4. Crypto Lobbying & Political Influence

• Armstrong on Political Donations ([06:13]–[07:00], [12:12]–[13:02])

  • Armstrong openly acknowledges large crypto industry donations—framing them as legitimate democratic engagement to establish clear regulatory rules.
  • Quote: “To me, that’s democracy working.” (Brian Armstrong, [06:57])

• Fink on Political Giving ([11:36]–[12:03])

  • Fink emphasizes a balanced, cautious approach: BlackRock splits its political donations equally between parties, prioritizing deliberate, ethical conduct.

5. Tokenization: Transforming the Financial System

• Fink’s Vision for Tokenization ([13:20]–[15:24])

  • Advocates digitizing all assets (stocks, bonds, real estate) to eliminate middlemen, reduce friction, and enable seamless transactions from wallets.
  • Quote: “If we could digitize every asset… it will reduce the friction cost, the transaction costs, and it allows a much more free flow.” (Larry Fink, [14:04])

• Armstrong’s Prediction for Banks ([16:07]–[16:45])

  • Predicts banks, despite current resistance, will embrace stablecoins and even want to pay yield on them.
  • Quote: “The best banks are leaning into this… the ones who are fighting it are going to get left behind.” (Brian Armstrong, [16:37])

• US Lagging on Digital Finance ([16:45]–[18:14])

  • Fink warns the US is falling behind India and Brazil in digital transformation, urging quicker action or risk ceding leadership.
  • Quote: “We need to move faster as a country, even in AI.” (Larry Fink, [17:53])

6. AI, Bubbles, and Winners

• Is there an AI bubble? ([18:14]–[19:34])
  • Fink shares uncertainty among hyperscaler CEOs about over- or under-investment; expects some failures, but also sees potential for massive winners.

7. Tokenizing Private Companies and Capital Formation

• Armstrong’s Perspective ([20:14]–[20:50])
  • Recognizes demand for more accessible investment in private companies; stresses importance of company consent in tokenization.
  • Quote: “There’s so much money in crypto—how can it update capital formation just like every other part of the financial services area?” (Brian Armstrong, [20:38])

8. Governance & Delaware-to-Texas Moves

• Armstrong on Moving Coinbase Incorporation ([21:48]–[23:14])

  • Cites unpredictability and anti-founder sentiment in Delaware; praises “business-friendly” Texas.

• Shareholder vs. Founder Friendliness ([23:14]–[23:44])

  • Armstrong: “People can choose which company they want to invest in. The free market is the right regulator.” ([23:36])

• Fink on Shareholder Democracy via Tokenization ([23:47]–[24:47])

  • Envisions instant, app-based shareholder voting enabled by tokenized assets.

• Concerns About Proxy Power ([25:18]–[26:47])

  • Fink warns limiting index fund voting could empower foreign and activist investors, destabilizing corporate governance.

9. Economic Outlook & Workforce Trends

• Armstrong: Optimism Amid Change ([27:03]–[27:40])

  • Predicts a “golden age for freedom,” regulatory clarity, and ongoing financial innovation.

• Fink: Healthy Capital Flows, Looming Labor Questions ([27:42]–[29:00])

  • Notes foreign investor appetite for US assets but flags weak US job growth, speculates on the impact of policy uncertainty and technological labor substitution.
  • Quote: “Our revenues are up 40%, our headcount’s up 5[%]… technology is enabling more with less.” (Larry Fink, [29:15])

• Education System Adaptation Needed ([29:00]–[30:24])

  • Fink calls for urgent rethinking of the US education system to align with technology-driven job changes.

10. Prediction Markets & the Gamification of Financial News

• Viral “Word Betting” and Prediction Markets ([31:05]–[32:21])

  • Armstrong recounts community bets on words during a quarterly call, suggesting prediction markets are emerging as alternative information sources and even potential tools for policy feedback.
  • Quote: "For 99% of people, they’re looking at it as an alternative to traditional media." (Brian Armstrong, [31:40])
  • Discusses insider trading nuance in prediction markets: may actually improve informational quality.

• Fink’s Dismissal of Gamified Markets ([33:15])

  • Quote: “We try to help people navigate a 30-year outcome—I don’t care about what happens the next moment… this is not how I’m going to live my life.” (Larry Fink, [33:17])

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Fink on Evolution:
  “By having strong views, you have to test yourself… This is a very glaring public example of a big shift in my opinions.” (Larry Fink, [03:41])

• Armstrong on Buffett/Munger:
  “There’s no chance that’s going to happen at this point. Bitcoin is kind of this new digital gold.” (Brian Armstrong, [05:10])

• Fink on Bitcoin’s Purpose:
  “Bitcoin is an asset of fear… you own it because you’re frightened of your financial security.” (Larry Fink, [07:22])

• Armstrong on Regulatory Turning Point:
  “2025 is actually, we’ll look back on this as the year that crypto regulation went from kind of gray market to well-lit establishment.” (Brian Armstrong, [09:56])

• Fink on Tokenization:
  “If we could digitize every asset… it will reduce the friction cost, the transaction costs, and it allows a much more free flow.” (Larry Fink, [14:04])

• Armstrong on Business Migration:
  “We want to run our company in a business-friendly jurisdiction. I mean it’s pretty simple, right?” (Brian Armstrong, [22:07])

• Fink on Index Fund Voting Risks:
  “If they disallowed index funds to vote at this moment, it means foreign investors would have a greater percent of the vote… Is that the outcome you want?” (Larry Fink, [25:36])

• Armstrong on Prediction Markets:
  “Prediction markets are a big deal… for the 99%, they’re an alternative to traditional media.” (Brian Armstrong, [31:40])

• Fink on Long-Term Focus:
  “We try to help people navigate a 30 year outcome. I don’t really care about what happens the next moment.” (Larry Fink, [33:15])

Segment Timestamps

• 00:26 – Armstrong: 2025 as the year of “well-lit” crypto regulation
• 02:34 – Fink discusses changing his view on Bitcoin/crypto
• 04:08 – Armstrong on incumbent resistance (“innovator’s dilemma”)
• 05:10 – Armstrong responds to Buffett/Munger “rat poison” claims
• 07:22 – Fink: “Bitcoin is an asset of fear”
• 09:51 – Armstrong on crypto leverage and US regulation
• 13:20 – Tokenization’s future in finance (Fink)
• 16:07 – Armstrong on banks and stablecoins
• 16:45 – US lagging in digital transformation (Fink)
• 21:48 – Armstrong on moving Coinbase’s state of incorporation
• 23:47 – Fink on shareholder democracy with tokenization
• 25:18 – Concerns over index fund proxy voting limits (Fink)
• 27:03 – Economic outlook Q&A
• 31:05 – Prediction markets and “word betting” viral moment

Conclusion

This episode ties together the transformation of finance through regulation, technology, and the democratization of investing. Larry Fink and Brian Armstrong articulate sharply defined but overlapping visions of the future: more digital, more direct, and still fraught with complex challenges. Both agree that innovation and adaptation—by companies, regulators, and nations—will determine who leads in the next era of global finance.