DealBook Summit: The Education of Higher Education

Podcast: DealBook Summit by The New York Times
Date: December 7, 2025
Host: Jodi Kantor, with Andrew Ross Sorkin
Panelists:

• Carmen Twillie Ambar (Oberlin College)
• Sian Beilock (Dartmouth College)
• Jonathan Levin (Stanford University)
• Ron Daniels (Johns Hopkins University)
• John King (SUNY)
• Daniel Diermeier (Vanderbilt University)
• James Harris (University of San Diego)

Episode Overview

This episode gathers seven prominent leaders from U.S. higher education to discuss the state, challenges, and future of colleges and universities. The conversation, held live at the DealBook Summit, centers on issues such as preparing students for an uncertain job market shaped by AI, addressing concerns about affordability and access, balancing traditional liberal arts with new technical demands, higher education’s role in democracy, and the imperative for diversity of both background and viewpoint.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The State of Higher Education: Opening Perspectives

[00:43–11:11]

• Each panelist introduces themselves and shares an unexpected or underappreciated truth about higher ed:
  • Free Speech & Dialogue (Ambar, Beilock): Facilitation of difficult conversations across differences is vital, and students want exposure to challenging perspectives ([01:28–03:00]).
  • Research as Innovation Engine (Levin, Daniels): Universities are critical drivers of innovation, often in ways unseen or underrecognized by the public ([03:10–05:43]).
  • Access Isn't Uniform (King): The “leafy campus” stereotype doesn’t fit most students; SUNY, for instance, serves 1.3 million students annually, with many adults in commuter colleges ([06:16–07:28]).
  • Historical Context & Advocacy (Diermeier): Drawing on the White Rose resistance, affirming the need for moral courage and community support, especially in times of crisis ([07:37–09:15]).
  • Local Impact & Student Vulnerabilities (Harris): Universities are tightly bound to their communities, including the most vulnerable populations like undocumented students ([09:30–11:11]).

“The question that we're dealing with on college campuses about how to have conversations across difference is just much harder than people think.”
— Carmen Twillie Ambar ([01:49])

2. Students’ Top Concern: The Job Market and the Challenge of AI

[11:38–16:49]

• Recent Grad Testimonial: Alejandra Diaz Pizarro, Columbia ’25, describes job hunting as “demoralizing,” facing endless resume tweaks for AI filtering, overwhelming competition, and automated rejections ([12:57]).
• Panel Response:
  • Skills Beyond Credentials (Beilock): Dartmouth involves students in internships as part of their education, focusing on both critical thinking and tangible ROI ([14:15–15:36]).
  • Humanity as a Differentiator (Ambar): Liberal arts may be more critical than ever—the “most human part of themselves” will set students apart in an AI-saturated landscape ([16:51–18:22]).
  • Taking Responsibility & Concrete Steps (King):
    1. Colleges must admit if students feel degrees lack job value ([19:10]).
    2. Graduates should consider enhancing their skill set—via micro-credentials, internships, specific courses—not necessarily another degree ([19:10–20:14]).
  • ROI and Institutional Responsibility (Beilock, King): Increasing job preparedness and skill applicability is a collective duty, not just the student’s ([20:14–20:39]).

“We should say sorry, because I think people are right to have some buyer's remorse if they get through a college degree and can't find a job at the end, that's on us.”
— John King ([19:10])

3. AI in Education: Opportunity, Hype, and Balance

[21:01–30:52]

• Institutional Adaptation (Diermeier): Vanderbilt’s new College of Connected Computing gives all students access to AI education (“lower the boundaries”) regardless of major ([21:40–22:11]).
• Stanford Approach (Levin): Integrates AI like ChatGPT into coursework but maintains checks, such as oral defenses with TAs to ensure students understand work ([23:58–25:55]).
• Domain-Specific Application (Daniels): AI’s true power is realized when merged with deep domain expertise—especially critical in fields like medicine ([28:31–30:52]).
• Guarding Against Overcorrection (Beilock): Universities should lead conversations about what appropriate AI education looks like, not just tech firms ([23:30]).

“It’s not going to be the radiologist that's going to be replaced by an algorithm, but it's going to be the radiologist that knows AI is going to replace the one that doesn't.”
— Daniel Diermeier ([22:51])

4. Workforce Readiness vs. Lifelong Learning

[31:10–36:11]

• "Not the Right Question" (Ambar): Rather than just job training, universities’ core value is teaching students to analyze complexity and adapt. Still, practical connections with industry are needed ([31:26–33:40]).
• Shifting Investment & Better Counseling (King): Calls for more funding for workforce-aligned programs, and improved, honest counseling about career pathways—especially outside the “default” four-year route ([34:49–36:11]).
• Social Mobility and Access (Harris): Highlights personal journey from homelessness to university leadership, emphasizes the risk that AI will deepen inequality by privileging those with access and support ([36:48–38:45]).

5. Affordability: Grading the American System

[42:40–49:23]

• Panel Grades:
  • C+/B- (Ambar): Good with lower-income access; middle-class families still struggle. Public investment is imperative ([43:53–46:08]).
  • C/C- (Harris): Historical context shows U.S. higher ed steps up in crises, but local engagement needs work ([46:24–47:54]).
  • "Extraordinary" for some, enormous variance for others (Diermeier): Debt crisis not monolithic—aid at elite privates vs. high-debt, lower-completion sectors ([47:57–49:23]).

“If we believe that what we do really helps our economic ability in this country... this is a public good sometimes dealt with by private institutions. The government has a role to play here.”
— Carmen Twillie Ambar ([45:06])

6. Democracy, Political Pressure, and Viewpoint Diversity

[49:23–66:36]

• Universities & Democracy (Daniels): U.S. institutions face unprecedented political attacks, but declining public trust predates current administration ([51:47–54:46]).
• Legitimate Critiques? (King): Some truth to charges of ideological uniformity and poor handling of protest/discipline. However, skepticism is centered more on elite institutions ([55:02–56:47]).
• Rebuilding Viewpoint Diversity (Ambar, Daniels, Beilock):
  • Must intentionally recruit from beyond the liberal bubble ([57:35–61:28]).
  • Need more conservative faculty, not just students ([61:29–62:42]).
  • Mission should be research/education, not politics—neutrality and robust discourse are key ([63:17–64:21]).
• DEI Backlash (King, Ambar, Diermeier, Beilock):
  • Supreme Court and political attacks on DEI send exclusion messages; institutions must act to re-establish belonging ([65:06–69:14]).
  • Must return to “first principles” of diversity and inclusion as central to meritocracy ([68:29–69:14]).

“Our mission is education, it's research. We're not political organizations like the RNC or DNC. We're also not social advocates organizations.”
— Sian Beilock ([63:17])

7. Institutional Adaptations & Multi-faceted Ecosystem

[69:14–80:09]

• Responding to Politics (Levin):
  • Stanford’s resilience is from focusing on core values/mission, making long-term choices rather than reacting to news cycles ([69:44–72:29]).
  • Initiatives on free speech and discourse, cutting red tape, housing a conservative think tank—started before recent culture wars ([71:06–72:29]).
• Appreciating Strengths Across Sectors: Each panelist admires features from other institutions or segments:
  • Loyola of Chicago’s Arrupe program (Harris)
  • Innovation culture at Stanford and similar universities (Diermeier)
  • Social mobility leadership at UC Merced (King)
  • Local economic impact and translational research, e.g. Hopkins, Stanford, Cambridge (Daniels, Levin)
  • Accessibility innovations at community colleges (Ambar)

“We need to figure out how to make that whole ecosystem stronger instead of getting too over focused on one particular segment.”
— Jonathan Levin ([77:00])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The question that we're dealing with on college campuses about how to have conversations across difference is just much harder than people think.”
  — Carmen Twillie Ambar ([01:49])

• “We should say sorry, because ... that's on us.”
  — John King ([19:10])

• “It's not going to be the radiologist that's going to be replaced by an algorithm, but it's going to be the radiologist that knows AI is going to replace the one that doesn't.”
  — Daniel Diermeier ([22:51])

• “Our mission is education, it's research. We're not political organizations ... Our mission is to bring people together with different views.”
  — Sian Beilock ([63:17])

• “If you look at the four or five or six of us sitting around this table here, the financial aid support that we provide to our students is absolutely extraordinary ... but there are sectors where we have high debt loads... So the overall sense that this is... there's this overall debt crisis really needs to be segmented.”
  — Daniel Diermeier ([47:57])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introductions & Institutional Realities: [00:43–11:11]
• Graduate Testimonial & Workforce Fears: [12:57–14:12]
• Addressing ROI and Liberal Arts Value: [14:12–16:49]
• AI in the Curriculum—Innovation & Limits: [21:40–30:52]
• Workforce Prep vs. Lifelong Learning: [31:10–36:11]
• Affordability—Grades & Systemic Critique: [42:40–49:23]
• Universities, Politics, and Democracy: [49:23–54:46]
• Viewpoint Diversity & Recruiting Conservatives: [57:22–66:36]
• DEI Backlash and Impact on Students of Color: [65:37–69:14]
• Institutional Resilience in Partisan Times: [69:14–72:29]
• Cross-institutional Admiration & Closing: [73:20–80:09]

Summary Conclusion

This rich and candid conversation offered a panoramic view of American higher education’s converging crises and opportunities. Presidents and chancellors wrestled with how their institutions could remain relevant, accessible, and just—while upholding the promise of education as a path to both economic mobility and citizenship. Throughout, speakers balanced recognition of their sector’s shortcomings with optimism fueled by ongoing innovations, dedication to diverse dialogue, and a willingness to evolve—if higher education is to endure as a public good.