David Fincher & Zodiac (2007)

Summary

Dear Movies, I Love You: “David Fincher & Zodiac (2007)”

Hosts: Millie De Chirico & Casey O’Brien
Air Date: December 2, 2025
Podcast Network: Exactly Right & iHeartPodcasts

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Episode Overview

This episode is a deep dive into David Fincher’s 2007 film Zodiac. Hosts Millie and Casey deliver a blend of personal connection, film criticism, and cinema culture, focusing on how Zodiac evolved from a misunderstood thriller on release to a beloved masterpiece of the true crime and procedural genres. The conversation is full of candid, sometimes hilarious observations, along with thoughtful takes on Fincher, the film’s performances, and its place in movie culture.

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Episode Structure & Key Discussion Points

Introduction and Banter [01:24–08:24]

• Coded Emails & “Threatening” Messages: Casey reveals they've received bizarre ciphered emails and ominous (yet ultimately silly) commentary about his “farts.”
  • “I mean, this sounds like a positive terrorist if you ask me.” —Millie [03:50]
• Millie and Casey riff on stalkery fan vibes, setting a playful but slightly unnerved tone.
• Segues into the main topic: Zodiac.
  • “Let’s just talk about this movie straight up. We don’t even need to talk about it in any other context other than this movie just being one of my favorite movies.” —Millie [07:04]

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Movie Diary: Recent Watches & Gripes [14:09–27:38]

• Millie’s Movie Theatre Woes:
  • Recalls an uncomfortable viewing of the new Running Man (2025) remake, highlighting her inability to buy Glen Powell as a working class revolutionary:
    • “He’s so MAGA coded…” —Millie [20:20]
• Counterpoint: Casey doesn’t get Glen Powell’s leading man appeal either.
• Casey’s Film Diary:
  • Grosse Pointe Blank (1997) — first time watch, loved it.
    • “This type of John Cusack movie …I want more of that.” —Casey [25:11]
  • The Naked Gun (2025) — found it genuinely funny despite David Zucker’s disapproval.
  • Micro Budget (2024) — enjoyed it; hints at future discussion.

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Main Movie Discussion: Zodiac (2007)

[27:40–82:37; continued until ~81:12]

Fincher, the Film & Its Context

• Initial Reception vs. Cult Status:
  • Both hosts remember Zodiac as “misunderstood,” with Millie championing it early and Casey admitting to a 180 after rewatching:
    • “When I watched it this time … I was scared again. This rattles me, man.” —Millie [31:58]
    • “I thought it was so good. I thought it was so textured. I thought it was so funny… This is the best David Fincher movie.” —Casey [36:57]

Personal Connections

• Millie:
  • Saw the film a couple years after release, didn’t understand why it was disliked.
  • Describes seeing a revival screening at the New Beverly and being genuinely rattled:
    • “Came out of the movie theater, scared out of my fucking mind.” [31:58]
• Casey:
  • Was a film school “shithead” at the time, expected another Seven or Fight Club, didn’t appreciate Zodiac’s slow pace or its digital look at first.
  • Quote: “This isn’t like a David Fincher movie. This is messy and long and big and not tight and violent like I’m used to… Anyhow, I’ve done a total 180.” [36:57]

Zodiac’s Vibe: Slow-Burn Procedural & Detail

• Admire the movie’s patience and obsessiveness, connecting it to procedural and journalism movies.
  • “At certain points you just crave different tempos for films…” —Millie [38:05]
  • “Every little fact, I was like, ooh, the handwriting doesn’t match… I was really hanging on each little development.” —Casey [39:25]
• Discussion of the sheer production complexity:
  • “They must have had like a thousand or so cuts on the cutting room floor.” —Millie [41:06]

Ensemble Cast Fandom

• “All my guys! Like, even the ones I was like, oh shit, that is my guy.” —Millie [28:29]
• Discussion of actors:
  • Mark Ruffalo (“my Greek king Elias Koteas!”), Donald Logue, Brian Cox, Anthony Edwards, etc.

Fincher as Director

• Both hosts are “hot and cold” on Fincher.
• Anecdotes about his ultra-meticulous reputation (100-take shoots):
  • “Robert Downey Jr. said… ‘I was going to give him what he wanted. I think I’m a perfect person to work for him because I understand gulags.’” —Casey [47:17]
  • Both debate the value and cost of that shooting style.

RDJ as Paul Avery

• Both agree Downey Jr. strikes a perfect balance between charm and direction.
  • “I think he’s charming and funny. But …this felt like it was being utilized properly.” —Casey [54:31]

San Francisco as Setting

• Discussion of the city’s history as a crime/noir setting and its changing identity since the 70s, with tragic loss of its counterculture vibe:
  • “The tech industry pretty much ruined San Francisco.” —Millie [55:51]

The Arthur Leigh Allen Scene [59:17–63:40]

• The police interview with John Carroll Lynch as Allen is named as the film’s centerpiece moment.
  • “You know how sometimes you just catch a vibe from a creepy dude? … This is how I think about that…” —Millie [60:43]
  • Lynch’s performance is cited as chilling and unforgettable.
  • The trip to Allen’s trailer (with “Crisco on the floor”—a detail both missed previously) [63:10] is highlighted as intensely disturbing.

Obsession, Dedication, and the Heat Comparison

• Compares Zodiac to Heat as an ensemble about men sacrificing personal lives to their obsessive quests.
  • “This is the heat of serial killer movies.” —Millie [65:36]
  • Both hosts agree the film sells this obsession believably.

Iconic Scenes & Cinematic Fears

• Bob Vaughn’s house/basement scene is lauded as iconic and universally terrifying.
  • “I know like ten organists at a silent movie theater.” —Casey [75:47]
  • The terror of being “the weird collector/potential suspect,” relatable for film nerds.

Unresolved Mystery & Final Thoughts

• The film’s pointed implication: Allen is the Zodiac, but circumstantial evidence means no certainty—raising broader questions about truth and proof.
  • “There are times in my life where I have, like, figured out that …somebody’s boyfriend was cheating or, like, I’m the one that loves evidence. I get a thrill out of it…” —Millie [74:44]
• Both ultimately credit Zodiac as Fincher’s best and recommend revisiting films after years for new perspective.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “This movie is, dare I say, a masterpiece.” —Millie [31:19]
• “I was just dorks about [Seven].” —Millie [44:19]
• “Sometimes fans of things negatively affect the thing itself…” —Casey [50:07]
• “I wanted to be like, I just want this to be over.” —Mark Ruffalo’s character, as quoted by Casey [64:27]

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 01:24–08:24 — Banter, coded messages, podcast meta-commentary
• 14:09–27:38 — Movie Diary: recent watches, theater gripes, quick reviews
• 27:40–81:12 — Main Zodiac discussion: personal histories, Fincher’s style, cast, scenes
  • 59:17–63:40 — Arthur Leigh Allen interview scene
  • 69:42–73:10 — Bob Vaughn/basement sequence
• 81:12–94:03 — Audience Q&A: cult movies, western recommendations, “Nightmare Before Christmas” debate
• 95:15–96:42 — Employee Picks (movie recs related to Zodiac)
  • Millie: Silence of the Lambs (1991)
  • Casey: All the President’s Men (1976)

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Gripes, Gropes, and Gratifications (Listener Mail & Recommendations) [81:25–94:00]

• Cult Classics: Discuss films that were ignored or panned on release, but are later recognized as significant (ex: Zodiac, Rocky Horror Picture Show, Jennifer’s Body).
• Western Film Recommendations: Millie rapid-fire lists must-see titles (e.g., Red River, Johnny Guitar, Stagecoach, McCabe & Mrs. Miller, Treasure of the Sierra Madre, Hud) for a listener interested in Tombstone and complex performances.
• Is The Nightmare Before Christmas a Halloween or Christmas Movie?
  • Casey: “It’s a Halloween movie.”
  • Millie: Leans “Christmas,” but acknowledges the movie’s duality and ambiguity.

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Final Thoughts

Millie and Casey celebrate Zodiac as a film that has grown in reputation and relevance, expertly blending procedural, true crime, and ensemble drama. Both encourage listeners to revisit films with fresh eyes, and to embrace slow-burn storytelling. Packed with cinephile in-jokes, sharp analysis, and lived-in movie love, the episode is a perfect example of the podcast’s “relationship with movies” thesis.

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Essential Quotes with Timestamps

• “Let’s just talk about this movie straight up…one of my favorite movies.” —Millie [07:04]
• “I thought it was so good… This is the best David Fincher movie.” —Casey [36:57]
• “You know how sometimes you just catch a vibe from a creepy dude? … This is how I think about that…” —Millie [60:43]
• “This is the heat of serial killer movies.” —Millie [65:36]
• “I have done a total 180 on it… now it’s one of my favorite movies.” —Casey [36:57]

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Episode Takeaways

• Zodiac is now viewed as Fincher’s masterpiece for its meticulous, slow-burn style and haunting ambiguity.
• The film’s resonance has only grown over time; both hosts urge rewatching movies that didn’t initially work for you.
• Fincher’s directing style—both dazzling and divisive—brings out career-best work from the cast.
• The film’s exploration of obsession, truth, and the unknowable is still chilling in 2025.

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Where to Engage

Instagram: @dearmoviesiloveyou
Email: DearMoviesExactlyRightMedia.com
Hosts on Letterboxd:

• Millie: @m.dechirico
• Casey: @CaseyLeoBrien

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Next week: Year-end favorites for 2025.
Closing Words:
“Thank you, Millie. Always a pleasure.” —Casey [98:46]
“Thank you, Casey. I’m sorry you’re getting those fart emails…” —Millie [98:51]

Transcript

[A]

This is exactly right.

[B]

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[A]

Ross, work your magic. Hey, Casey, what's going on?

[C]

Oh, Millie. Not much. How are you?

[A]

I don't know. I'm a little stressed out right now, but otherwise I'm fine.

[C]

Well, I'm a little stressed out too because you know how we've been receiving all these coded messages to our Dear movies, I love you email?

[A]

I mean, I. So I sort of peek in there from time to time and then I would open up certain emails and they just had a bunch of gobbledygook, so I just shut them and move on.

[C]

Yeah, we were, we've been receiving, you know, pages upon pages of coded cipher messages, you know, and we were like, wait, what does this mean? And there's been like threatening letters attached saying, like, you have to read this code on, on the air on your podcast. And we haven't, you know.

[A]

Wow. I actually had no idea that was happening. I just thought it was like somebody tried to send us a fax and turned out. So you're telling me that we've been getting threatening letters?

[C]

Yes, yes. And, you know, I've been working with our legal department to just sort of figure out what the best way to, you know, pursue this is. Because we don't want, you know, we don't want to comply to this, you know, terrorists threats, you know, if that's the case. So. Yeah, but I spent a few weeks, I worked with some experts. I took out a bunch of code books from the library, you know, as.

[A]

You do, as you do.

[C]

And I cracked the code for one of these ciphers. Wow.

[A]

Okay. So what's going to happen? What's happening?

[C]

Well, yeah, so I haven't actually, like, you know, I just decoded it, but I haven't Read it. You know, so I don't know the contents, but I just. It's been decoded, so I thought we could, I don't know, go through that together real quick.

[A]

Yeah. Come on. What's it.

[C]

All right, let's see here. Okay, here's the first one. Let me pull this up. It's all kind of handwritten here, so I'm kind of sorting through a bunch of papers. Okay. Here. Here's the message. This is long, so just hang in there. Okay, Millie, it's addressing you first. Wow, Millie, you are so cool. I love your film insights and your sense of humor.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Got me lolling lol ing all day. Okay, so that's. That's pretty cool.

[A]

I mean, this sounds like a positive terrorist if you ask me.

[C]

Yeah, very positive for me. So maybe these are just positive. So, yeah, here's the next section.

[A]

That's pretty good.

[C]

Casey, I can tell your farts really stink. They probably smell like gasoline and coleslaw. Okay. You are so farty. You probably have farts coming out of your mouth when you talk. They are so potent that I can actually smell them when I download the podcast.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

They magically permeate through the speakers in my car and into my nostrils. When you talk and I smell your farts, it makes me. Okay, this goes on for, like, pages.

[A]

Wow, dude.

[C]

I mean, so. And there's no demands.

[A]

It's just like talking about your farts that are somehow coming through the speakers.

[C]

Yeah, I guess so. Or there's some conjecture that I have stinky farts, which is not true.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know.

[C]

So I don't know. And I think it's, like, kind of, you know, if I'm dissecting this, they say I can tell your farts really stink, but then they say they can smell them. So which is it? You know, there's just sort of, like. There's sort of mixed messaging in there. So.

[A]

I mean, it's just so odd that I would receive such positive feedback from this weird person who has written us in code and that you are literally just a fart machine.

[C]

Yeah. It's hard to know their motivation, frankly.

[A]

Very hard. Yeah.

[C]

So, well. Well, I guess I'll keep decoding these messages in case they ask for something.

[A]

I mean, I don't know. Have you gotten any, like, phone calls with just people breathing really heavy or anything like that or.

[C]

Yeah, I'll. I'll get a phone call in the middle of the night, and it's kind of like a person, like, sniffing.

[A]

Sniffing?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Ah, what a sick bastard.

[C]

I know. So, like, I guess to see if they can smell my farts or whatever, but. Yeah, it's sick. I mean, it's sick. It's sick behavior. So please don't send any more of these.

[A]

Well, yeah, sicko. I mean, I. I mean, if you want to send me compliments, I'm not gonna stop you. Okay? Let's just be real. But if you're gonna talk about Casey's farts, and you're gonna be talking about them in really, really harrowing detail, and then you're gonna call and sniff on the phone, I mean, that. We can't have that. I.

[C]

Or I. I would. I would say, at the very least, please don't send them in a coded message. Just send them as an email so I don't have to take the hours to decode them. You know what I'm saying? So sorry about that, Millie. Sorry.

[A]

No, I. I care about you as my co host. I don't want people talking about your farts. Not on my watch, if you know what I'm saying.

[C]

Yeah, well, I appreciate that.

[A]

Well, speaking of coded messages.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

We have quite an episode today, wouldn't you say?

[C]

We do, we do. And I can't wait to get into this. We're talking about Zodiac from 2007. I have a lot of. I have thoughts about this movie.

[A]

God, I do, too. And here's the thing. I think when we. We were kind of come up, coming up with ideas, you know, for episodes, which we do all the time, I was like, let's just talk about this movie straight up. We don't even need to talk about it in any other context other than this movie just being one of my favorite movies. Yeah.

[C]

So it's a big movie. It's huge.

[A]

It is huge. Also, I don't know if you clocked this or not. Did you see a bit of Christmas in Zodiac?

[C]

I did, yeah. I did. There's some Christmas scenes. We'll have to ask our friend Alonzo Deralda if it. You know, if it can be classified as a Christmas movie or not. But, yeah, I did notice that, and I loved it.

[A]

Listen, if they can. If they can make Eyes Wide Shut, a Christmas classic, I think they can make Zodiac one, too. Just saying.

[C]

I love that California Christmas look.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

We also are going to be talking about gripes and gropes and GRs. Might have to get out the guitar.

[A]

The three GS. The three wise GS. The.

[C]

The three wise GS.

[A]

Speaking of Christmas.

[C]

Sure, sure.

[A]

That'll be fun. We got some voicemails, too, which is great.

[C]

We do.

[A]

We always love hearing your voice.

[C]

I do. Very good. But, yeah, that's about it. A huge show.

[A]

Well, please stay tuned. We would love it. You're listening to Dear Movies, I love you. Dear Movies, I love you.

[C]

And I've got to know if you love me, too.

[A]

Yes or no?

[B]

Check the box below.

[A]

Hey, everybody. You are listening to Dear Movies, I love you. This is a podcast for those who are in a relationship with movies and we're not. We're not talking about a relationship where you write weird, creepy letters from a distance over the course of many years. We're talking about people who are actively involved and in a relationship with movies, wouldn't you say?

[C]

Yes. Do people even write love letters anymore, Millie?

[A]

No, not really. I mean, I certainly haven't gotten one. I think people now probably get love dms.

[C]

The Love dm. Do you remember in old movies how they're like. They would say, like, do you make love in the sense that, like, it's like, do you do lovey things? You know, when that. You know how, like, the phrase make love used to be more like, do you write love letters? And are you romantic rather than just have sex? Do you know what I'm talking about?

[A]

No, I don't know the origin story of making love okay. At all. But I do. I do think I gotta say I kind of like it as a phrase. I wish it would come. Come back.

[C]

Making love.

[A]

Yeah. Me and my husband made love. It's like, it just feels so.

[C]

I don't know, like, take a little love. Yeah, very much so.

[A]

Anywho, anyway, I wanted to tell you that I'm Millie De Chirico.

[C]

I'm Casey o'. Brien.

[A]

And we, like, we said at the beginning, we're doing a good movie today. A movie that I feel like has been misunderstood over the years, perhaps.

[C]

Yeah. I think it was even a little misunderstood at the time that it came out.

[A]

Yeah. But I actually think it is, to be honest, it's one of those movies now that's gotten a complete. There's been a complete upheaval from the original opinion. I feel like there's so many people that like this movie now more than ever.

[C]

Absolutely. I feel like there's a lot of people who say, like, oh, that's if not my favorite movie, like, one of my favorite movies of all time.

[A]

Oh, man. I mean, like, if you want to. We're going to talk about the director, David Fincher, of course. But I was. There's many people that think it's his best movie.

[C]

Yeah. Which is interesting because. Well, we'll get into it. I have a lot of thoughts about that.

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[A]

Well, I know this podcast is called Dear Movies, I love you, but sometimes once in a while.

[C]

Anyway, the opposite feeling occurs.

[A]

I kind of had this thought when we were talking about Almost Famous the other week, because I was basically like, here's a movie that I don't like that I rec. That I recommended, apparently.

[C]

And then I was like, conflict, Complicated, right?

[A]

Is that a counterintuitive thing for this podcast? I don't know. We're like, we have crushes on movies and then sometimes we hate their gifts.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

So anyway, it's occurred again this week, unfortunately. So I saw. I saw one movie. Saw it at the movie theater, my infamous movie theater, where fireworks go off and the place gets shut down constantly. I did have drama this time again, because it is a theater that has, you know, reclining seats and my fucking seat was broken. And I was stuck in this, like, weird, like, breach baby position for like half the movie. And I was so annoyed by that.

[C]

Oh, my God. That would drive me crazy.

[A]

Oh, my God. And then, of course, you know, that's.

[C]

Like if your TV screen doesn't work on an airplane. Oh, you know, it's like.

[A]

But imagine like, my feet are kind of hanging in the air, my whole back is pretty much flat, and I'm like, so there's a total stranger sitting next to me. Okay. And you know how in some of these theaters, like, the buttons for the. The chair and the seat heaters are like, right on the handle, like right on the armrest. And then it's like next to the other person's armrest. So imagine me with my fucking legs in the air, desperately trying to mash buttons so I could get out of this fucked up position. And this guy looking at me like, what the fuck is wrong with this woman?

[C]

Now did. Was it like that when you walked up to the seat for the first time? It was like, no, no, no.

[A]

It was like I wouldn't have like willingly sat in a broken chair that was already broken. It was, it was fine. And then what happened was, is that I sat down in it. I. I pressed the little foot, you know, like the foot recline. And then for some reason it just stopped like maybe a third of the way up. And then I was like, well, okay, I don't know. So mash this other button which made the back of the chair go back. And then that's what happened is the back of the chair went all the way back and then the of just stuck in the air.

[C]

This is like a Mr. Bean sketch.

[A]

Oh my God. It was godamn awful. And I was like in the dark smashing buttons and like. And my foot is falling asleep. I'm like, oh. And I had like popcorn on my chest. It was awful.

[C]

Have you even said what movies?

[A]

No, I haven't even said. This is just a film gripe. This is a gripe, I guess at the beginning. But this all happened while I was watching the running man from 2025, so.

[C]

Starring Glen Powell, directed by Edgar Wright.

[A]

Now maybe I should, you know, throw this caveat out there. I wasn't in an uncomfortable position, seating wise. Okay. Do I believe it affected my attitude towards the film? Perhaps. However, I really think that if I was sitting properly, I'd probably have the same thoughts.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

Which are. I don't understand Glen Powell at all. I do not know what's happening there. I know we've talked about him in the past because you actually asked me like, what are your top three Glen Powell movies? And I'm like, I don't even know if I have one. I've never seen him in anything. I don't think. I didn't see Twisters.

[C]

He's. Yeah, I, he. He's sort of a flavorless actor. And I, I haven't been totally impressed by him. I think he's good in a. Maybe supporting role like in Top. His Top Gun. I thought he was pretty good. And I thought he was pretty good in Everybody Wants Some as kind of like a sleazy kind of 70s guy.

[A]

That, that's actually the movie that people have mentioned to me as something I should watch in order to form a better opinion about Glenn Powell.

[C]

Everybody wants some. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, I think that's sort of the best type of thing he can do.

[A]

Right.

[C]

But I don't know if he can be a leading man. And he's, he's like a revolutionary in this movie.

[A]

Okay. Listen, dude, okay, the conceit of this film, right, is that you've got this poor working class, lower working class man living in a kind of dystopian future who has a mixed race child married to a black woman. They live in what they would call slum or you know, a very poor part of this techno future town, right? And he is so desperate to buy medicine for his child that he decides to join this game, this reality show game, you know, the original Running man with Arnold Schwarzenegger, right? And I'm watching this shit going, ain't no fucking way. This guy is this guy. Ain't no fucking way. Okay? Number one, I'm like, this guy does not read revolutionary to me at all, all right? I, I, if you want to talk about revolutionaries, let me put, let me put this in perspective, okay? Leonardo DiCaprio with a mixed race child, potentially as a revolutionary. I buy that. Glenn Powell as a revolutionary with a mixed race child. I'm not buying it, okay?

[C]

He does just like read so country club maga coded guy, you know?

[A]

Oh my God, that is the exact phrase that I used when I was talking to my friends about it. I was like, he's so maga coded. And I'm like, and then there were times in the film where, you know, his, his mission is so singular in the film, which is that he just wants to take care of his family. He. And, and I'm like, that is an important goal to have in life. But why coming out of his mouth does it seem very like trad wifey like, and I'm sorry but like, this motherfucker has too many abs. I'm going to throw, I'm throwing that out there. There's a section of the film where he's repelling down the side of a building in just a towel, okay? The magic of movies. Somehow that towel stayed put, which I was like, ain't no way that happened. But then I'm like going, this guy, you're telling me this guy lives in a slum? You're telling me this guy, like, you know, has zero dollars? I'm like, he could just literally walk on stage at Magic Mike in Las Vegas and have a job? Like, he's not, no, I'm not buying it. He's too handsome and he's too absy to be this character.

[C]

Isn't it interesting that I think that just proves that like what a good actor Leo is, because he like, he also comes from like super white looking, privileged looking guy. He can play that character, but he was totally Believable in one battle after another. And I just don't think Glen Powell could do that.

[A]

Well, Leo is also at that point in his age and his, you know, countenance where he can look like shit.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And be, like, effective and funny and like, he. It's like Leo could be the. The character actor of his fucking fantasies now if he wanted to be. Yeah. Glen Powell is still the hunk. Like, he cannot play someone grimy or. Yeah. I mean, even if he was just like a run of the mill construction worker, you know, pipe fitter guy or whatever his character was, I was just like, I'm not buying it. Don't flash those abs and tell me that this guy's a revolutionary.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Period. So anyway, it kind of took me out of the movie a little bit. I also have other opinions about the movie, which I will keep to myself. This has already gone on too long. But I. Maybe I don't want to reveal them.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

For. For reasons you don't need to know about. But I. I was. Yeah, I was disappointed and.

[C]

Well, do you like the original Running Man?

[A]

I love Arnold. So, I mean, I think that answers your question. So it's like that thing where I'm like. And I mean, like, the concept of it is interesting, obviously, but it's like. And I also think there are definitely great parts of the movie. I mean, Colman Domingo is really good in the movie, but for the most part, I just cannot understand what was happening with Glenn Powell. And he will never be listening to this, but, you know, I'm sorry, sir, you may be incredibly nice, but then I've also seen you in a movie with. With Sydney Sweeney, which. Don't even get me started about that. Like.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, they are two peas in a little pod. Yeah.

[A]

It feels like they're kind of like the MAGA prom king and queen. Should I even say that? It just feels.

[C]

It feels that way. We're not saying they are that way, but even though Sydney Sweeney is a registered Republican.

[A]

But. Yeah, anyway. Yeah, anyway. All of that to say my only movie logged this week and I was. I had my feet in the air the entire time.

[C]

And yeah, a traumatic experience from head to toe seems like.

[A]

All right, so what about your diary? What's going on?

[C]

Okay, so I watched three movies this week and I liked all of them. Number one, I watched Grosse point blank from 1997. I'd never seen this before.

[A]

What the fuck? Are you serious?

[C]

Yeah, I'm serious. It's great and it's great and I Loved it. And it's interesting because I was like, John Cusack made Grosse Pointe Blank and High Fidelity kind of back to back. And he produced both of those with, like, his production company. And he hasn't really done. He hasn't produced. He's done a. I think he did a movie called War, Inc. Which I haven't seen, which apparently is a loose sequel to Grosse Pointe Blank. But I would love if he tried to produce more movies kind of with his production company out of Chicago. I don't even know if that production company is like a functioning company anymore. But like, Gross Point Blank and High Fidelity, those are like two amazing movies.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, and.

[A]

And I have to say, like, a lot of people fell in love with Minnie Driver, either from Circle of Friends or Good Will Hunting. And I have to say this is the one that got me Her. Like her and Gross Point Blank. I was like, I'm in love with that woman.

[C]

Yep. Uh huh. Me too. Loved it. Yeah, I. Yeah, I love this type of John Cusack movie and I just, I want more of that. And I don't know if it's too late or if he even wants to make these types of movies, but this type of movie is great. This kind of like, funny, quirky, character driven comedy is great and I loved it. But I love John Cusack and I just want to see him more often in movies that I want to see.

[A]

Yeah, fair enough.

[C]

I've mentioned that before, but I love him. Okay, then. I watched the naked gun from 2025 between Neeson and Pamela Anderson. I had a damn blast. Wasn't it fun? I was giggling. I had so much fun. There is a joke about Buffy the Vampire Slayer that had me laughing so hard. Anyways, he's great. It was great. I loved it.

[A]

That version was the Fergie joke for me.

[C]

The Fergie joke, the Black Eyed Peas joke. They're very similar jokes. They're kind of like run on references to something you wouldn't think Liam Neeson's character would know anything about. But it was. There were some really funny stuff in there. And it's like laugh a minute. It's the type of movie where there's like a joke every two seconds, you know? And I had a great time. Even though David Zucker. Is it David Zucker who did the original Airplane on Naked Gun. He was like, I did not like the new one. It wasn't good.

[A]

Oh, well, what?

[C]

But I was like, it is good. I like the original Naked Gun and I like this one. I thought this. I don't know, I thought it was a good continuation.

[A]

Did I tell. Anyway, did I tell you that? Did I mention this on the podcast? When I saw in the theater, I think it was opening, maybe opening night or opening weekend, that everybody, virtually everybody in the theater was 40 plus, and it warmed my heart so much.

[C]

That's great. Yeah, that was great. Lots of laughter. It's fun being in a theater where people are really laughing.

[A]

Yeah, it was great.

[C]

And then I watched a movie called micro budget from 2024, and this might come into play in a future episode. I really enjoyed it. It's a mockumentary about the making of a micro budget movie. And it was very funny. And put a pin in that for later.

[A]

Okay, will do.

[C]

But that's it. That's all I have.

[A]

All right, well, I guess we're closing this.

[C]

Close it up. Close it up. Bye. Bye. All right, we are back. It is time for our big movie discussion. And we're talking about Zodiac from 2007. Directed by David Fincher, screenplay by James Vanderbilt. Based on the book Zodiac by Robert Graysmith, who's also a character in this movie, played by Jake Gyllenhaal. The genre, true crime thriller, ensemble, period piece themes, paranoia, obsession, drama. Standout actors. Who isn't in this? What actor is not in this movie? Oh, my God, there's so many. All my. All your guys.

[A]

All my guys. All my guys. Like, even the ones I was like, oh, shit, that is my guy.

[C]

Elias Codius. My king, my Greek king. I love him.

[A]

I'm talking Donald Logue.

[C]

Donald Logue, Yeah.

[A]

He's.

[C]

Love him.

[A]

Met him, love him. Brian Cox. Who doesn't love that motherfucker Anthony Edwards, who we love here on this podcast.

[C]

We do love here. Yeah. Miracle Mile.

[A]

Mile. Are you kidding me? Come on.

[C]

I would love to have acted in this movie. Can you imagine? Just a big fat 70s tie. Would have been great. Smoking cigarettes on set.

[A]

God, it would have been great. Yeah. This is like, you know, we talked about this when we were talking about the Ice Storm because you were like, bringing up. Doesn't like something about, like, 70s movies looking really hokey.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And they have the tendency to do that. But that. There's a couple of movies that they're. This. The seventies has really lived in. This is one of them.

[C]

Oh, absolutely. It didn't feel like that different from our reality. It's just like fashion's a little different. They aren't using computers, you know, like, it felt very real. Yeah. Standout actors, Jake Gyllenhaal. Mike. Mark. Mike Ruffalo. Mark ruffalo. Robert Downey, Jr. Anthony Edwards. Brian Cox. Dermot Milroney. Pops in there.

[A]

James La Gross. I mean, come on, man.

[C]

James La Gross. Chloe Savigne. Famous quotes.

[A]

No, this is the Zodiac speaking. I feel like that's. That's like a.

[C]

This is the Zodiac speaking. Yeah, it is a. I guess that is a famous quote, because he did. They did say that. Yeah. Millie.

[B]

Millie.

[C]

What's your personal connection to this movie?

[A]

Why do I laugh every single time? I'm never gonna not laugh. My personal connection is very strong because. Here's the tea. Like, I. When I first saw Zodiac, I saw it a couple years after it came out. Not right when it came out, but a couple of years after. I was literally, like, looking around going, why all y' all hate this movie? This is fudgeing fantastic. This is a fucking great movie. And you know this I'm talking about. This is how I felt in spite of the baggage, the. The cinephile baggage of David Fincher. I'm going to say it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, so many dudes love to talk about David Fincher, and it's, like, so exhausting. Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And unfortunately, I feel like sometimes when the. When you have these types of directors that people just, like, talk about ad nauseam, AKA bros. Film bros. You're just like, don't even want to watch his movies. Like, just. So having said that, I was like, this movie is, dare I say, a masterpiece.

[C]

Please dare. I think it is a masterpiece.

[A]

And so from that point on, I just really couldn't understand why people didn't like it. And then I. A couple years ago, actually, while I was still living in la, they showed it at the New Beverly Cinema, which everybody knows in la, a famous movie theater in la. I. They were playing Zodiac, and I was like, I'm riding my bike to see that shit. Are you kidding me? I've never seen it in a movie theater. Went and saw it, had an amazing time. Two and a half hours later, came out of the movie theater, scared out of my fucking mind. And I was like, oh, I got to ride my bike back home in the dark. And I was terrified. I was terrified.

[C]

Did you have a light on your bike? Were you wearing a helmet?

[A]

Very concerned, all of these things. I have a helmet as mips. It's a MIPS helmet. I had, like, two. Two lights. I had a flashing light. But I'm a woman riding a bike alone in West Hollywood, where tons of famous murders have happened. So I. I was scared and I like when I watched it this time so we could talk about it. I was scared again. This rattles me man. Like yeah, it's great.

[B]

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[A]

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[A]

Credit approval terms apply. What about you? What's your connection?

[C]

So I was one of these shitheads who would have been screaming at you Millie. I would have been yelling this movie sucks. I saw this in college. I saw it in the theaters. And, you know, I was in film school. So, you know, I'm right in. I'm in the pool. I'm in the stew of the shitheads. And we love. You know, I loved Seven. I loved the game, Panic Room, Fight Club. All those movies have a very edgy sort of look to them, and they're all pretty violent and thrilling, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And they're all kind of the same. They are very much all sort of the same genre, I would say, of movie. And so when I went to go see Zodiac also, I want to say this was also right when movies were sort of starting to be shot on digital, if you recall. So there was, like, movies like Collateral that came out, or. I don't know, there was a few others that came out around this time, and Zodiac was one of them. And in film school, it was very much like digital. Things shot digitally suck. Digital is evil. Things need to be shot on film. And then Zodiac is shot on digital. And I will say, even watching it this time, some of the night scenes, I'm like, this doesn't look very good to me. Or it's not that it doesn't look good, but I'm like. I can tell this is a digital camera. And I think when I saw it in theaters, that really bothered me. But more than that, I was just kind of like, this isn't like a David Fincher movie. This is messy and long and big and not tight and violent like I'm used to with David Fincher movies. So I kind of was like, I don't get this. I don't think this is good. I think he messed up. Anyways, that was the last time I saw the movie. And so when I was gonna rewatch it, I was like, oh, everybody has changed their pin their tune on this one, and I guarantee you I will not. I'm gonna think this sucks still. And I loved it. It totally. I was like, this is the best David Fincher movie. I totally. I've done a total 180 on it. And I thought it was so good. I thought it was so textured. I thought it was so funny. I thought it had a lighter touch than a lot of other David Fincher movies. And I was just, like, really impressed. And I also was able to appreciate it this time as more of a newspaper journalism movie, which it very much is, in addition to being scary.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So anyways, that's very long winded. But that's sort of my personal connection to the movie.

[A]

Yeah, no, I'm actually. I mean, it pleases me very much that you have revised your opinion on Zodiac. Because I do think that. I mean, I do think that this movie is a perfect example of something which we, you know, basically espouse here on the podcast, which is that you should see movies again, like, if you can. If you can stomach it, that is.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because time and place, context, your personal life, everything plays into growth as a human being.

[C]

I mean, something you just. I mean, I talked about that with the Ice Storm. I was like. When I watched it, when I was like, I don't know, 19, I was like, I don't get this, you know, but like now I'm a middle aged man with a child and maybe I have some more understanding of the world now.

[A]

Yeah. And I think that just like. I mean, this is like kind of like foundation of the cinema shithead that we talk about so much here, which is that, you know, at certain points you just crave different tempos for films. And when I was younger, I liked really gnarly, violent, salacious, fucked up movies. And then as I've gotten older, I find myself wanting slower pacing a little bit more, you know, to unravel. Like, this is what I think is so pleasing about, and this is something I wanted to talk to you about. Kind of right off the bat is the idea of these kind of crime procedural films, which are very like, long. Because I think that that was a criticism of the movie. I think when I had. Was starting to watch it maybe in like again like 2009, 2010, which is that it's like, God, it's so boring. It's like so detail oriented. It's like, who gives a, you know, like, why are we going through like, you know, these tiny little details? And I. That is one of the best things about the movie to me is that this just this slow burn of all these facts that I think as a younger person, I probably wouldn't have had the stomach for. I would have gotten bored too. But now as an older person, I'm like, yes, this is juicy. Give me everything. Give me the deets.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like every little fact, I was like, ooh, the handwriting doesn't match. His R's are different. You know, I was really hanging on each little development.

[A]

Right. And this is an unsolved case, so it is, yes. Possibly the most. One of the most famous unsolved crimes in history, I would say, if not the most, definitely in the top three.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So there's a Lot of meat on that bone. And I feel like a good movie is. Is. Knows how to distill that information to where you feel like you're getting a lot of info. And it isn't five hours at long, six hours long. I feel like it's a perfect balance of these things. And, like, quite honestly, it made me want to read Robert Graysmith's book. Like, I.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

I'm about to go buy that right now. I'm like, this sounds absolutely awesome, and I definitely want to know more about it, but it's. I don't know if you thought about this. I. I certainly thought about it this time. Did it not seem that there were so many setups? Like, because think about this movie being, like, what, two and a half hours? Something like that?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's packed with, you know, procedure, almost kind of like day by day in a lot of sequences, but that they were. All the scenes were happening fast. So I was like. I was like, going, how many setups did they use total in this film? Because there's different clothes, different scenes, different setups. And I'm going, they must have had, like, a thousand or so cuts on the cutting room floor that they didn't use.

[C]

It seems like an exhausting movie to put together. And I do think that's what, like, makes that. Is one of David Fincher's superpowers, is his, like, meticulous concentration on very specific details. And he's, like, so detail oriented that it seems like he's, like, the kind of man who can make a movie like this, because this movie does take place over, like, years. Like, you're saying it's like there's, like, all these, like. Like, they go back to the same locations, but it's like it's years later. So they look. They probably look a little different, and people are wearing different clothes and stuff.

[A]

And there's not even really, like, super long takes, though. Do you know what I'm saying? It's like they really chop it up. And I'm like, I don't know. I just. I was kind of, like, reeling from that fact this time. I'm like, man, they must have, like, had.

[C]

It was a long shoot. It was a long shoot. And I know some of the actors were getting a little worn down by not just the shoot, but also Fincher's meticulous nature, which maybe we'll get into a little bit later. I'm just gonna start some of the synopsis right now.

[A]

Do it.

[C]

Okay. So the opening of the movie, it kind of Opens with two murders pretty close together. This plot is gonna be tough to put out, so I'm gonna just. I'm.

[A]

We forgive you.

[C]

Painting with broad brushstrokes here.

[A]

Sure, sure.

[C]

So we open with a very frightening scene of Darlene Farron and Mike Mageau being shot in a car in Lovers Lane. Like, this is, like, the first scene of the movie. And they're young kids, and Mike survives and Darlene doesn't. Okay, we've introduced this murderer. Later, the San Francisco. And this is in Northern California. Later, at the San Francisco Chronicle, they receive coded letters from a man calling himself Zodiac. He demands that his coded letters be printed in the paper or else he's going to kill a bunch of people. He makes a bunch of threats about killing all sorts of people, including school children. Paul Avery, played By Robert Downey Jr. Is a writer and reporter at the Chronicle. And he ends up being kind of the main guy writing about the Zodiac for the San Francisco Chronicle. Robert Graysmith is a political cartoonist played by Jake Gyllenhaal. And he is just sort of around collecting information, overhearing conversations. He's a political cartoonist. He has no involvement in these cases. He's not even writing about it, but he's just around. So then another couple is murdered. Bryan Hartnell and Cecilia Shepherd. These are real people. They are stabbed by the Zodiac while hanging out near Lake Berryessa. Again, the man survives and the woman is killed. So that's sort of the beginning, kind of the setup, these two murders. And the Zodiac is taking credit for these murders in his letters to the newspaper. So this is sort of the setup. And this is the 70s, this is the late 60s at this point in 1969. And this movie takes place over the course of, like, 15, 20 years, basically. So what is. You know, we talked about Fincher a little bit, but, like, what is your relationship to David Fincher movies? And would you. Did you say that this is your favorite one?

[A]

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I have sort of dipped in and out of him in. In my life. I mean, to be completely honest with you, I'm like, he gets an A plus from me for shooting those Madonna videos from the 80s. Shot Express was Express Yourself in Vogue. So I love that stuff. Can't get enough of that. I loved Seven in high school. I have gone on record talking about this on. I saw what you did. I was stupidly obsessed with. Me and my friends were so stupidly obsessed with seven when it came out. And we were just dorks about it, if you remember me. Talking about my affiliation with the Seven Deadly Monkeys. You might know exactly what I'm talking about. I. I liked 7 and rewatched it for the pod. Thought it was great. And then, like, there's just stuff in between that. I was. I mean, no interest in Fight Club, by the way. Like, zero. I watched it. I was like. I mean, I don't even need to go into that at all.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Did not see Benji Buttons. And I. But I liked Gone Girl, so it was kind of that feeling of like. And then I'm like, oh, this is interesting. Oh, you know, so it's kind of like. I don't know. I'm very like, hot and cold with him. But when. Me too. When I saw Zodiac, I was like, absolutely fantastic. And I was like, this has to be his best movie. I don't know. Is it. Is it because it's the underdog? I don't know.

[C]

Yeah, it is sort of his most, like. It is kind of a non commercial movie in some ways.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Because it is just so long and boring in the best possible way. But yeah, I. I have kind of a similar relationship to David Fincher that you have. I'm a little hot and cold on him. I like Seven. I really liked Fight Club when I was in high school. I need to rewatch that because.

[A]

No shit, bro.

[C]

I'm just, like, curious what my reaction to it would be now. I really liked the Social Network when that came out, and I liked Gone Girl a lot. I also liked Girl with the Dragon Tattoo and. But I really did not like Mank.

[A]

Really?

[C]

Yeah. And I thought the killer was pretty good.

[A]

That killer was pretty cool.

[C]

But he. I would. I would say he's like, not my. He's not. I don't really, like, hold him. I like a lot of his movies, but I don't, like, love him. Like. Like some people are like, love him as a, like, director. Like, I don't. An auteur. I don't really, like, hold him in a personal place in my heart, I guess, is what I would say. But he is the thing that I do sort of find his whole thing. He's famous for taking like 100 takes of every scene.

[A]

Is he?

[C]

And actors really get annoyed with him. And Robert Downey Jr. Said on this movie. Cause Jake Gyllenhaal was getting really irritated filming this movie. And Robert Downey Jr. Said, I just decided, aside from several times I wanted to groat him, which means strangle him, that I was going to give him what he wanted. I think I'm A perfect person to work for him because I understand gulags. That's Robert Downey Jr's quote about working on this movie. So I don't know. I think that, like, sort of Stanley Kubrick style of filmmaking and directing is a little, like, corny and outdated. Like, being this, like, dictator on the set, I think is kind of bad for the film industry. But he doesn't. He's not like, a cancelable director or anything. But I do find that kind of attitude obnoxious, I guess.

[A]

Yeah, I do. I do think that that's probably pretty annoying. I also think at the same time, like, do I feel sorry for Jake Gyllenhaal having to do a hundred takes in Zodiac? I'm like, I don't know. He's hot, he's famous, he dated Taylor. Yeah.

[C]

What's he got to complain about?

[A]

This is your only job. Hey, I wish my job could be an awesome dude in an awesome movie.

[C]

My wife is very attracted to him. That's another thing that he's got going for him.

[A]

This is the hot. This is a high era of Jake G. I would say, too.

[C]

Yeah. Because I like Jake Gyllenhaal.

[A]

Yeah. I'm also kind of hot and cold with him, too. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. I don't know. Like, there are times where I'm like, oh, he's cute. And, like, in Zodiac, I was like, he's adorable this movie.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Adorable as he could be in a movie about a serial killer. Right?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

But then there are times where I'm like, I don't really like him very much, but it's. It's hard because it's like, again, like, I don't know, like, this movie is so chock full of, like, dudes.

[C]

Right?

[A]

Like, all these dudes that Cile types have opinions about, including rdj. We'll get to that, I'm sure. Mark Ruffalo. People love Mark Ruffalo. I actually think he's fantastic in this movie, by the way.

[C]

I do, too.

[A]

But you put it all together and you're kind of like, okay, like, what's. If I can do I need to strip back my personal opinions about people in the context of, like, cinephilia and just try to see it for what it is. Because unfortunately, it colors your opinions about things, like the ways in which people talk about certain actors and directors that are, quote, unquote artists, this kind of stuff. And you're, you know, sometimes you're just, like, negatively affected by it. Right.

[C]

Sometimes fans of things negatively Affect the thing itself, yes. And that's unfortunate. You know, Christopher Nolan is kind of a similar type of director in my mind as David Fincher. And I like a lot of Christopher Nolan movies, but his fans are really annoying to me, and it makes me want to seek out his movies less.

[A]

Well, I mean, we talked about it a bit. We were talking about pta and one battle after another. It's like this. You know, it's like I show up in a movie theater and there's 300 other dudes there, and I'm just like, okay, I see what this is. Even though I love PTA and I am a huge fan of a lot of his movies, it's just that, you know, it's that thing I don't feel like I'm punching down by saying, suck it up, Jake Gyllenhaal or something. But I also think it is annoying, I would think, to be an actor and to have somebody make you do things over and over and over again.

[C]

Yeah. All right, I'm going to move on to the next section here. So, a cab driver, Paul Stine, is killed by the Zodiac in San Francisco. The Zodiac has entered the city because up until now, it's been sort of in these counties outside of San Francisco. So Dave Toski, played by Mark Ruffalo, and his partner Bill Armstrong, played by Anthony Edwards, are assigned to the case. So this is where these two guys enter the picture. And I like them immediately, yes. Mark Ruff or Dave Toski. He loves animal crackers. So do I. You know? The Zodiac demands also to talk to famed attorney Melvin Belli, played by Brian Cox on tv. And they do this on tv. Melvin Belli is like, zodiac call in. And the Zodiac allegedly calls in, but it's unclear if it's actually him, which is kind of an ongoing thing. Who is the Zodiac? Was this an actual message from the Zodiac or a copycat? It's hard to know. But the Zodiac also sends a piece of the dead cab driver's bloodied shirt to reporter Paul Avery. So now Robert Downey Jr's character is actually getting mail from the Zodiac killer. What do you think of rdj?

[A]

God, why are you asking me all these, like, film school questions today?

[C]

Why are you asking me all these questions about movies?

[A]

Well, it's like, okay, I need to state for the record that I've not seen the Iron man movies. Okay. I don't know RDJ in his current form, which is that he's a Marvel guy. Okay. Yeah, I know him from 80s movies like Weird Science. Which I think he was great in, despite people's feelings about Weird Science. But I grew up with him in these movies in, like, the Less Than Zeros and the Pickup Artists stuff. Right. So that's the charisma that I remember him having as an actor, which I feel like he has just continued to do throughout his career. Right. So really, you're like, okay, well, he's kind of the same dude. Maybe he's not that way in Chaplin, but you know what I mean? Like, for the most part, like, when he's not, like, stuck in an impression of someone and he's allowed to just be himself, like that base character. Base him is great to me. I think he's charming and funny and. And I think that in Zodiac, it's the best. One of the best representations of that personality. Does that make sense?

[C]

I agree. I like the whole RDJ thing. I think he's charming and funny. But there are movies where it feels like the inmates are running the asylum and he has, like, been taken off the chain, and I feel like the movie suffers as a result. I remember seeing Home for the Holidays. Do you remember that Thanksgiving movie from 1995, directed by Jodie Foster? I feel like RDJ was really allowed to let loose in that one, and it just felt, like, out of control. So this, I felt like, was the best use of him because it was. He was, you know, under the thumb of David Fincher, but still so charming and funny. But within the confines of the movie more. It felt like it was being utilized properly in this movie. So I enjoyed having him in it.

[A]

Yeah, he plays. His character is kind of like a bohemian newspaper reporter, has drug and alcohol problems.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

But he's kind of just like this. I don't know, he's got this, like, zestiness to him that is just really fun. And it kind of breaks up the other characters in the movie who are kind of a little less quirky. I mean, they all have their quirks. I mean, animal crackers. Are you kidding me? But, like, you know, he has. He's kind of the most San Francisco ish kind of guy.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? Kind of a hippie.

[C]

This really made me want to go to San Francisco, and I haven't spent, like, any time there, but it sort of seems like a place. It seems like the city doesn't exist anymore or, like, people don't move there in the way that people like, you know, I just know a lot of people who are like, oh, I moved to Portland, Oregon, or I moved to New York or LA or Austin, these sort of, like, destination cities to, like, find themselves or start over. And I feel like San Francisco used to be kind of on that list, but now it's just such a Silicon Valley, which people city. It makes me sad that this really original, famous city is not what it once was.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, you cannot deny that the tech industry pretty much ruined San Francisco, you know, in a lot of ways. I used to go there. I went there a couple times in my early 20s. That's when I went to that mod party that I talked about during the Dig episode. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I had had such a fondness for it because it was like, you know, I was really into, like, beat poetry writers and counterculture and this kind of stuff. And then I would visit every so often for work and things like that.

[C]

And.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, I think it. I think it was different. I was having a different experience, I think, than I was, say, in, like, 1998. Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's interesting in the context of films because San Francisco is a. Is a place where a lot of crime movies have happened. I mean, it's like.

[C]

Yeah, we. I mean, we talked about this on. I can't remember we talked about. On what noir movie we were talking about, but it was like, what cities do noir movies take place in? It's like, la, New York, San Francisco.

[A]

Yeah. And, you know, and it's funny because I feel like San Francisco, like, for example, if you think about Seven. Let's just talk about Seven, the other David Finch movie that takes place in, like, what, Seattle or something like that.

[C]

Where it's, like an unnamed city.

[A]

Right. But it's like, you. It's definitely Pacific Northwest. It rains constantly, you know, and you're like, oh, yeah. I mean, this is depressing. Of course, crime happens here. San Francisco. There's a lot of crime films that are set in San Francisco. Right. And I think about it in terms of, like, wow, what a city to be. Kind of in movies like this representation of, like, gritty, like, cops and, you know, crimes. And then, you know, it's like, you think about it in terms of it having this big, like, hippie history and the idea that now there's, like, the tech industry there. And you're like, why was a lot of. Why, like, why was Vertigo shot in San Francisco? Or, like, why was, you know, whatever the conversation or point blank, like, you know, all these kind of gritty. These kind of gritty movies happening in this place of peace, love and happiness, I suppose. But, yeah, I don't know. The weather is really unpredictable in San Francisco, by the way. I've. I've never been to a city in my life where I've had to buy clothes as much as I have. I swear to God, every time I go to San Francisco, I have to buy clothes because I'm, like, not dressed right.

[C]

Yeah, they talked about that with, like, Candlestick park, which is where the 49ers used to play, and they were like. It was the coldest vortex in the. On the planet. It was like. Even on a nice day, it was like you had to wear, like, a full winter jacket in there for some reason.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. No, it was. It's. I always have to buy scarves and hats and jackets sometimes, and. I don't know. I. I love it. I love going there, but it's. It's such an interesting. Interesting place and. Yeah. I don't know, like. And I think about it in terms of the zodiac, too. You're like 69, you know, a zodiac killer roaming around up there. You're like. Yeah, it's kind of that feeling of. I mean, they play, like. They play the song throughout the film, but that Donovan song, the Hurdy Gurney man, which I think is the perfect creepy hippie song to play.

[C]

Okay, I'm gonna move on to the next section, which this whole sec. The next section, I feel like, is just this one scene, which is where they interview Arthur Leigh Allen, played by John Carroll Lynch. Now, we have detectives Toschi and Armstrong. That's Mark Ruffalo and Anthony Edwards. But we also have Jack Mullinax, who's a sergeant, and he's played by Elias Codius. And the great Elias Codius. He's in so many movies. I love Exoticca Crash.

[A]

Some Kind of Wonderful. What, are you fucking kidding me?

[C]

Some Kind of Wonderful. The Thin Red Line. So they interview this guy, Arthur Leigh Allen, also known as Leigh Allen, and there are all of these kind of. What do you call it when it's not a hard piece of evidence, but it's circumstantial. Lots of circumstantial evidence. Like, he was near Lake Berryessa when the couple was killed. He had bloodied knives in his car at the time that they were stabbed. But he says they're unrelated. He knows all these references that are specific to the zodiac. He has a watch that has the zodiac sign on it. And this is like. I think this is such a center point of the entire movie, this whole scene, and it was chilling. I don't know what did you think about this scene. I thought it was incredible. I think this, like, really puts things into focus, this whole scene.

[A]

You know how sometimes you just catch a vibe from a creepy dude?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And you're like, that guy's murdered people. No question. This is how I think about that when I met.

[C]

I think about that when I'm at Disneyland. I'm like, somebody here has killed somebody. There is someone here who has gotten away with murder. And I may have brushed past him. Yeah. I might have just been standing in line at the churro. Stand behind. Yeah, yeah. But, yes, I hear you're saying this.

[A]

Is how I felt basically about Arthur Lee Allen as played by John Carroll lynch, which, by the way, sir. John Carroll lynch, sir, I'm sure you're an incredibly nice man, a wonderful actor, but you played the. Out of this role to the degree which I cannot see you as a normal character at all.

[C]

He has a. There's a scene near the end of the movie where he has a look that really. He. Like, I was like, this is acting. Because he is sending me messages just with, like, a little look in his face that is frightening me.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, unbelievable. He's so good in this.

[A]

This is the thing about the movie that I think is really interesting is it Hammers Home. The idea of these people that have all of these things that they think are pointing to who they want to be the person. Like, they're like, we have this, this, this, this and this. In my life, everyday life, I would, you know, and I'm. And I'm just saying with zero stakes. Like, if you told me, oh, my friend is dating this guy who did this, this. This. This. This is red flags, I'd be like, all right, dump him. Right? I mean, if I'm using all of this circumstantial evidence, quote, unquote, to, like, tell my friend that her boyfriend sucks or something, you know? But to the degree which it happens in this film, which is basically police officers who are sort of doing that thing where they're like, but we have him. Here's what we have. And then somebody having to be like, actually, that means nothing. Like, it's.

[C]

Yeah. It doesn't prove.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then you couple that with someone who's just a creep, which. That gets fleshed out a lot when they go and visit his trailer.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Which. There was a c. There was a brief shot in that movie that shook me to the core, which we might talk about.

[C]

But wait, say it now. Would they go. And they. They go and look in his Trailer, and it's full of squirrels.

[A]

Full of squirrels. And, like, Anthony Edwards looks down by the bed and sees this dildo with, like, what, Crisco or something on the floor, Which I never noticed before until I saw it this time. And I was shook as fuck seeing that. I could not handle it. I could not handle it.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

But, yeah, I mean, this is the thing, is that it's like, okay, like, this is. You know, in the aggregate, this is the creepiest man to ever live. But is he the Zodiac Killer? Unfortunately, nobody can actually prove any of it, which is why the case is still unsolved. And it's just fascinating to me because that's the thing about what David Fincher does in the movie that makes the movie so appealing to me, is that he's, like, working it out in real time, you know? Like, there's the.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

The part where the Mark Ruffalo character is told by Dermot Mulroney that it's not him, and he just, like, takes his jacket and just walks out of the office like. He's just like, I can't believe it. You know, There goes everything that I thought. My work, my life, you know, this.

[C]

Yeah. He says that thing where he's like. I don't know if I wanted it to be him because I thought it was him or if I just want this to be over.

[A]

Yes. And I just. I felt the frustration of that because it's like, again, it's. It's just probably an unbelievable feeling to just feel like it's not. It isn't what you thought.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Despite all of your hard work.

[C]

Or you're like, this is definitely him. I just can't prove it. Yeah. Like, that's what the thing is. It's like, I. It is him, you know? But you can't prove it, really.

[A]

Oh, I wanted to tell you about the animal crackers thing. This is a Detective Toski thing, which it's kind of a runner in the movie. I don't really think it lands 100%, to be honest.

[C]

I think it's really corny, and I think it doesn't work. It's kind of like this is his little quirk, and it's like.

[A]

Plus, I don't like plain animal crackers. I like iced animal crackers.

[C]

I like them both.

[A]

Yeah. Good for you. But his. Yeah, it's. It kind of wears thin or over time. But I do like, the Mark Ruffalo is so great in this film, and.

[C]

And him and Anthony Edwards together are really good.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I Think.

[A]

Well, and I want to ask you this, too, because we're talking about these detectives. We haven't even really talked about the Jake Gyllenhaal character yet, which we will. The thing that I think is interesting, I like to call this movie. It's based. This zodiac is essentially the heat of serial killer movies, if you think about it, because not only is it ensemble cast of cool bros, but they're all, like, completely obsessed with this crime to the dismay of their families. And it's like, you got multiple wives in this film that are, like, you're too obsessed. Get out of the game. End it right in the same way that Heat is like, all of those. All of those girlfriends and wives are trying to pull them out of the game, but it's like, they're too obsessed.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And in this film, I understand why they're obsessed. Like, it. Like, that is communicated to me perfectly, where I'm like, oh, I couldn't give this up either if I was them.

[C]

Yeah. It is interesting because I feel like heat, it's kind of a adrenaline thing. It's a high that they are. They're addicted to where this. It does feel like more for a purpose or something. Yeah. Like, and it's, like, so much more infuriate.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

It's like, it's not. They're not doing it for pleasant reason. It's not like they. They're getting joy.

[A]

Yeah. It's. It's a quest. And I would be obsessed with the quest. I couldn't stand to be in that. Whatever that factory that Arthur Lee Allen is working in when they go and visit him and interrogate him. Couldn't stand to sit there feeling like. I was like, I know this guy did it. And he's just smug as, like, he's like. He has this line right before he, like, goes back to work, where he's basically like, I long for the day where cops are no longer considered pigs or something.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And it just made me nostalgic for when we called cops pigs.

[C]

Let's bring it back.

[A]

I feel like we should there. I love. I grew up in the generation, by the way, which I feel like was completely informed by skateboarding, which is we cops were pigs, and they also were obsessed with donuts. That was, like, the two jokes. Yeah. That existed when I was a teenager about cops, and I was like, we should bring that back.

[C]

Bring it back.

[A]

Come on.

[C]

I feel like they do that on Wayne's World.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

They, like, see that cop in the donut shop, and they're like, something smells like bacon.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. It's like, if you want to find all the cops, they're hanging out in the donut shop. That's what the Bangles said in Walk like an Egyptian. And these are just jokes that I grew up with. And I feel like they don't exist anymore. Like, now everybody says, like, ACAB or whatever, which is fine, but, like, go back to the donut joke. I love that joke.

[C]

Yeah, let's go back to the donut joke. I like this. It seems more effective.

[A]

Agreed.

[C]

Is it okay if I move on to the last section here that I have?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay. So four years pass, nothing happens. The case has essentially gone cold. But everyone is haunted by it. Like Millie was saying, Paul Avery has become a full blown alcoholic. He lives on a boat. Robert Graysmith, he has decided he's, like, going through a divorce. He's losing his. His wife is walking out on him. He's decided to take up this investigation by himself because he is a civilian. But he knows so much about the case. And part of the problem with the initial investigation is that there were all these jurisdictions that had to communicate to each other and were, like, withholding evidence from each other because the murders happened across all these, like, counties, basically. So Graysmith, as a civilian, is able to go to all these jurisdictions and collect evidence. There's a very frightening scene where he goes to this guy Bob Vaughn's house, played by Charles Fleischer, and it turns out that his handwriting matches the Zodiac or is a very close match. And he ends up in the basement of this guy. It's a very scary scene.

[A]

It's a famous, famously scary scene.

[C]

Famous. Yeah. I think that's the scene people bring up with this movie a lot. But anyways, Jake Gyllenhaal is talking to all these cops, and they can't convict anybody. They just can't. But if you put together a book that takes all the evidence, you can point to somebody basically who did it. And all this circumstantial evidence points to Leigh Allen. And towards the end of the movie, Jake Gyllenhaal goes to where Leigh Allen is working and is, like, just staring at him. He just wants to look at him and see him because he says something earlier in the movie where he's like, I just want to go look at the Zodiac. Look at the Zodiac. And he says something like, I think I'd know if he did it if I saw him, or something like that. Doesn't he say something like that earlier in the movie?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And him and John Carroll lynch sort of stare at each other. And this is the scene I was referring to. And John Carroll lynch looks fucking horrifying. He looks so scary. And I'm like, in that moment, I'm like, yeah, he did it. But then later, also, Mike Mageau, who is the survivor of the very first killing, he picks Leigh Allen out of a lineup and is like, that's the guy who shot me. So, yeah, Zodiac.

[A]

Oh, man. Well, yeah. This is when I think, like. Like, the movie really starts to focus on Robert Graysmith as, like, the Jake Gyllenhaal.

[C]

He's not in the movie for a long period of time. In fact, when he came back, I was like, oh, Jake, I missed you. He was gone. He was, like, gone from the movie for a while.

[A]

Yeah. He was kind of peppered in with the other. The other boys. But then, you know, it starts to become really about him because he's the one that wrote the book that the movie's based off of, but also, like, he's kind of the one. Like, everybody is exhausted by this case that they're just like, I wash my hands of it. There's so much else happening in San Francisco. I don't give a. About the Zodiac anymore. He hasn't written us in, like, 20 years or whatever. It's like, you know, they're all over it. But, like, Robert Graysmith, the Jake Gyllenhaal character, is basically like, come on, boys, we got. We got stuff. I got to go back to the library. There's all these evidence that we didn't think about. And at the same time, he decides to, like, form a relationship with a woman that he goes on a date with, who is played by Chloe 7. And, like, I think she looked fantastic in this movie. Yeah, she was so authentically 70s. In fact, I was like, you know what? They could actually be my parents, if we think about it. From, like, my parents. When did they get married? In 71 or something like that. Like, I was like, that could. They could be my mom and dad for all I know.

[C]

And do you. Does part of you wish they were?

[A]

No. I like my mom and dad. But, you know, in a movie, in a movie context, sure, they're my mom and dad. But I wanted to ask you this because I always thought this was so funny. They go out on the first date, and, like, he's so wrapped up in the Zodiac that she's just like, this is our entire first date. I guess I'm just gonna hang.

[C]

Yeah, well, you obsess over The Zodiac and make phone calls and wait for a phone call from Robert Downey Jr. Yeah, right?

[A]

And I kept thinking to myself, I'd probably do that, too, actually. I would be like, if. Listen, if I was on a first date with a guy that's like, I'm hunting the Zodiac killer, I'd be like, sure, I'll go. I'll go anywhere with you. Would you?

[C]

Yeah. Oh, you know, if I met my wife, Trisha, and we went on a date and she's like, I'm. Honey. The Zodiac. I would have been like, I'm. I'm there with you. What do you need? I'll get coffee.

[A]

I'm saying, like, who was. Who in the. Is gonna be like, God, red flag. I don't know about this. I'm going home. Yeah, I'd be like, where? Let me help you. Like, yeah, let's ride out. Like, I'm not.

[C]

Do you need animal crackers? I could go get some.

[A]

You know, I'm, like, in it to win it. I was like, yeah, what a great first date story, by the way.

[C]

I. You know, it's interesting watching Jake Gyllenhaal's character, he's obsessed, obsessed with finding the Zodiac. I don't have that drive. I could. This couldn't be me.

[A]

Ah, it's too bad. It could definitely be me. Really? I. I would fall down this rabbit hole. You think that looking up gray goo on Wikipedia was bad? I would be so obsessed. I mean, they're like, I'm surprised I'm not just, like, an amateur sleuth on Reddit, to be honest.

[C]

Yeah, I. I'm surprised your walls don't have a bunch of red yarn connecting a bunch of photographs.

[A]

I think I have too many hobbies. If I could whittle it down, though, if I could, you know, basically shed off a lot of my extracurriculars and just focus on, like, one thing like that, I'd be fucking great at it. Because I. I gotta tell you, I love busting people. Like, I have done.

[C]

Busted. Makes you feel good.

[A]

Busted. Makes me feel not just good, but great. You have no idea how many times in my life where I have, like, figured out that, like, a co worker or somebody is, like, a. A, like a real slime ball, or, like, you know, somebody's boyfriend was, like, cheating or, like, I'm the one that loves evidence. I'm like, yo, bring it to me. I'll put it on my murder board. Like, I'll tie the strings together. I get a thrill out of it. So I was sitting here watching this movie going, man, I would be in the hole with. I mean, I just really would. One thing that I think we gotta talk about, and this is just because this character is extremely triggering, is that Bob Vaughn guy?

[C]

Movie lover.

[A]

Cinema Bob.

[C]

He might listen to our podcast. Yeah.

[A]

He is the cinema of Zodiac. Works at a silent movie. I mean, come on.

[C]

I know, like, 10 organists at a silent movie theater.

[A]

Yes. I know, like, 10 guys like Bob Vaughn. I mean, you don't know one dude from all your years living in la?

[C]

Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely.

[A]

Come on.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

And specifically silent film dudes. Oh, my God, They're.

[C]

That's so funny.

[A]

Very interesting. I knew that guy was somehow involved from the moment he. He was like, hey, you want to come back to my house? I'm like, nope, I wouldn't. What are you doing, Robert? That's crazy. Don't go to this guy's house. Yeah, he is a.

[C]

Going down. Let's go down to the basement.

[A]

He's a silent film collector. What? Are you kidding me? He's probably got mummies down there.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And that is why that part of the movie is so creepy, is what he. The terrifying light bulb that goes off in Jake Gyllenhaal's character's head when he's like, oh, no. I write those posters after he had just spent, like, the last week or so proving that the handwriting was the Zodiac's handwriting. And he's like, no, it's the guy that I'm sitting in this creepy house with. He's. His handwriting. Oh, fuck.

[C]

It's interesting because he's like. He finds out. It's like, oh, the guy I think could potentially be the Zodiac. I am sitting across the table from him in his kitchen. So I've made this discovery, and then Bob Vaughn's like, let's go to the basement to check my records. And Jake Gyllenhaal's like, okay. And I think that was really interesting because I'm like, do you want to get killed by the Zodiac? Like, part of me felt like Jake Gyllenhaal's character was like, I want to go to the end to see where this goes.

[A]

You know, I want to be a victim is basically.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I have to say that this is a type of situation. This is. And. And this is at multiple points in the film where as a single person of a certain age, you are quivering in your boots that you're not somebody like this. Do you know what I'm saying?

[C]

That you're not that you're not Bob.

[A]

Vaughn or the Zodiac or some freak that is tangentially related to a serial killer. Because you're like, these are just middle aged people who live alone, who have passions like old movies. And you're like, oh, no. And now they're creepy as fuck and being investigated because they know people who are creepy as fuck. Which, you know, creeps. I know. Come on. Like, it's just scary. It's scary when you see a lifestyle that is sort of similar to yours on a screen. It can, in a crime film. And you're like, oh my God.

[C]

In connection to a brutal serial killer. So you're saying you're worried that the FBI is going to come knocking on your door and it's like, we have some questions about this guy you that's in your circle.

[A]

I mean, sort of. It's more that somebody like Jake Gyllenhaal would come to my house and think I was a creepy. Because they're like, oh, do you realize how many fucking DVDs this woman has?

[C]

Like, ugh, there's an Elenda lawn life size cutout in her home. I'm scared.

[A]

That's what I'm saying. It's like people are getting the wrong impression of me that I'm this like fucked up person. And I'm like, I'm normal, I promise. I just collect weird things sometimes like hats and rock T shirts and oh my God.

[C]

Wow. That's a, that's a read of this movie I wasn't prepared to hear.

[A]

Listen, this is why our podcast exists. Okay.

[C]

Oh, man. Any other final thoughts on the Zodiac?

[A]

Well, I would like to ask you, who do you think the Zodiac Killer is?

[C]

I think that one of the things I like about this movie is that, yes, it's open ended. Like throughout the movie, there are several actors playing the Zodiac Killer.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

And you never see their face, but it's like different voices and stuff. So you're not sure. But this movie also is basically like, it's Lee Allen. Like, I mean, it's pretty pointed towards this one guy.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Which I, I'm glad they took that point of view that it's like, it does seem like evidence would point to this man.

[A]

Yeah, I, I, I will say that I believe that that's true too. I mean, like I said, without having done hard research on the case and really just had seen David Fincher, Zodiac, I will say all signs point to Leigh Allen. I hate that he has taken the Most Dangerous Game and has sullied it. The movie by the way, because. Have you ever seen the movie the Most Dangerous?

[C]

I haven't seen the movie with my.

[A]

Boyfriend, Joel McCray, 1932. Fay Ray. Fantastic. Pre code. You gotta watch it. But it's.

[C]

I'll check it out.

[A]

It's now become the, like, shorthand for murderers and such.

[C]

Yeah. I think I read the book in high school or the story it's based on, but.

[A]

Well, do I. I don't like that there's a lot of old movie creeps that are being implicated in this fandango. But I do think that Lee Allen did it. Probably. Who knows?

[C]

It does seem like it, but. Yeah, who knows? Yeah, who knows? But, man, what a film. Really enjoyed.

[A]

I'm glad you like it now. I'm glad you like it now because I love it. I think y' all should all watch it. It's great.

[C]

It's a joy to take a movie from my. My dislike column and put it in my love column, telling you, you know, so.

[A]

What a rush.

[C]

It's a treat for me. All right, we're back and it's time for some gripes, gropes and grits. Grab scropes and grits. Gripes, gropes and grits. I got something that's making me upset. All right, so we got a few here. Hi, Millie and Casey. I recently listened to your episode about A24 films Admit and Midsommar. The conversation at the end regarding various films that have won awards but haven't left a lasting mark on the cultural zeitgeist made me wonder about the inverse. Which films from recent years or any number of years ago did not receive any awards, slash critical acclaim upon their release, but later became significant in our culture and continue to influence the film industry today? Thanks for reading my question and I'm curious to hear your thoughts. Thanks again. Elena from Boston.

[A]

Huh?

[C]

Zodiac, I was gonna say.

[A]

I feel like we. I feel like we just talked about one. I mean, there's so many. I mean, like, I. I'm a cult movie person.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, think about, like, how many shitty movies, quote unquote, that have now become classics. I mean, it's like Rocky Horror Picture show or anything. Just name it. Like. I mean, John Waters is, you know, like, has. Is in the museum world and, you know, is on a Criterion Collection. And, I mean, it's like everybody got their just desserts in that way.

[C]

Yeah. Trying to think of any that are, like, came out in, like, recent years that would. That I think will be big or important that just nobody or got very little Fanfare?

[A]

Yeah. I don't know. I mean, it's. I don't know. I mean, I feel like there are movies that have influenced the kind of visual culture that we have now that are, like, you know, I don't know, like, stylistically, like, you think about stuff like Natural Born Killers or like, you know, 90s movies that have, like, lasted to where the visual style of them has continued. Like Tara. I would say Tarantino movies are that way. You know, there's a lot of that kind of stuff that has persisted in. Even in social media and commercials and that kind of stuff.

[C]

There's. I mean, there's so many movies that just get missed because they come out at the wrong time or people aren't ready for them.

[A]

And.

[C]

I don't know. It's. This is hard. This is. This is like a research paper.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I think. I think that cult movies are kind of ripe for that kind of stuff because a lot of times they are purposely or, you know, kind of destined to be obscure because they're, quote, unquote, badly made, low budget, you know, made by maniacs. But then at some point, the movie persists and it kind of jumps from the kind of cult audience to, like, mainstream culture. Right?

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I mean, totally. I think about, like, even stuff like Penelope Spheres's Decline of Western Civilization, documentaries and that kind of stuff where it's like, you know, you see elements of those films in a lot of stuff now.

[C]

So, yeah, Jennifer's Body, another movie we've covered on this show, I feel like was critically panned at the time, and it's become a huge cult classic. Like, people really love that movie now. So that's another one. But, yeah, thank you, Elena, for the question. All right, Millie, I have a voicemail I'm gonna play here for you.

[A]

Dear Millie and Casey, thank you so, so much for your film advice.

[B]

I need your help and your expert advice and navigation as I venture into American Western movies. Obviously, everything and beyond American cinema, I would take.

[A]

But let's just say that my in.

[B]

Here is Tombstone and Val Kilmer acting.

[A]

His gorgeous, gorgeous RP King, but Val.

[B]

Kilmer acting his gorgeous, gorgeous ass off as Doc Holliday. See, now, if people told me that Western movies could be full of complex, bizarre worlds and strange character work, you know what? I maybe would have tapped in a lot sooner.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

But this is why I need your guidance.

[A]

Please. Thank you so very much.

[C]

Much.

[A]

Casey, you're doing an insanely good job.

[C]

I absolutely love the dialogue between you two.

[B]

Millie, thank you. So, so much.

[C]

Your laugh makes me laugh.

[A]

And anyway, long story.

[C]

Love you guys. Thank you so much. Thank you, Christina, for the voicemail. Millie, do you have any Western suggestions that Christina can start off with?

[A]

Do you want my, like, top 10, top 5? I'm not gonna rank them.

[C]

Let's hear.

[A]

I'm not gonna rank them.

[C]

I'm just gonna.

[A]

I'm gonna start listing them out. I love Westerns, and I. I swear I started liking them after I started working at tcm because I actually began to understand them more when I was younger. I thought they were all boring and really American and, you know. Yeah, there's a lot of problematic elements to Westerns. American Westerns, for sure, absolutely. But I. Again, we're talking about the tempo of films and how your patience for them changes over the years. I think Westerns became appealing to me as I got older because I just like the way that they're rolled out. Yeah, acting is, you know, a lot of times, very understated. It's like these kind of morality tales. A lot of great character actors and just sort of like, I don't know, the. The scenery of a western, the desert. I mean, I. When I lived in California, I was like, this is fantastic. Like, I love, you know, the John Ford shot in national parks vibes and that kind of stuff. So let me throw some out, please. I would say watch red river from 1948 starring Montgomery Clift and John Wayne. Great film about kind of like old school versus new school cowboys. And Montgomery Clift is fantastic in it, and it's probably one of his best roles ever. I would be remiss if I didn't mention Johnny guitar from 1954. Probably, like, one of the best feminist masterpieces of film. Nicholas Ray, Joan Crawford. I'm gonna also go with if you've never seen Stagecoach, the original, like, 1939, with John Wayne and Claire Trevor. Stagecoach is fantastic. Like, I mean, say what you want about John Wayne, and I promise I have a lot to say about him. But, you know, some of these movies are. That he's made over the years, really are great, and he happens to be in them, if you know what I mean. More newish stuff. McCabe and Mrs. Miller, Robert Altman, 1971. Really great. Like, such a vibe, like an amazing movie. I would say if you should watch, you should watch McCabe and Mrs. Miller and then watch, like, some Sam Peckinpah movies like the Wild Bunch. Absolutely. You gotta watch the Treasure of The Sierra Madre, 1948. Humphrey Bogart, Tim Holt, Walter Houston. I mean, this is important. Like everybody talks about the Treasure of Sierra Madre being like a classic, important Hollywood film. It totally is. It is. It stands the hype. You gotta watch it. Another kind of like revisionisty western thing along the lines of McCabe and Mrs. Miller and the Peck and Paul stuff is Butch Cassidy and Sundance Kid. You cannot go wrong with Redford Newman. Charm, pizzazz.

[C]

Charm.

[A]

What else? Who else?

[C]

Oh, I think that one more. Okay. Yes, yes, of course, of course.

[A]

Ride the High country. Randolph Scott and my aforementioned boyfriend, Joel McCray. A meditation on aging. It is fantastic. Honestly, it could keep going. I mean, I love western so much. I mean, you got. I didn't even mention like the man from Laramie and Magnificent Seven and even like the freaking Sergio Leone movies. I mean there's so much, so much.

[C]

That's a. That's a great place to start, I think.

[A]

Yeah, I would watch Hud. Hud 1963 with Paul Newman. Okay, I promise I'm gonna shut up now. Okay, that's enough, right? That's a lot.

[C]

That was more than enough. That was actually two minutes, Christine. I hope that was helpful.

[A]

Me too. Me too.

[C]

Okay, we have one more. This one's quick.

[B]

Hi.

[A]

Millie and Casey, this is Sydney, this is Lauren. And we have a long standing film feud for you both.

[B]

Really an argument that's been going on for years.

[A]

And we'd like you to be the deciding factor of why I'm right.

[B]

I'm right.

[A]

So Nightmare Before Christmas, Tim Burton. Classic.

[C]

Uh huh.

[A]

Classic Halloween movie. Classic Christmas movie. So we need your advice and your expertise and your input and your opinion. And it might not change our opinions, but we know who's right. It will solidify the right answer. Exactly. For Nightmare Before Christmas being a Halloween movie. So if you could answer this question for us, that would be greatly appreciated. We love it. Thank you. Thank you. We love you guys. Love you.

[C]

Okay, I don't know if you have an opinion on this. That was a well choreographed voicemail, by the way. Under a minute.

[A]

Yeah, it was like a duo. They're adorable.

[C]

Yeah, that was very cute. I love that. I have a definitive answer to this. Do you have any opinion on this?

[A]

I want you to say your definitive answer.

[C]

It's a Halloween movie.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

It's spooky. It takes place in Halloween town, predominantly. It is the same plot as how the Grinch Stole Christmas, kind of. But it's, you know, Halloween is always sort of in conversation with Christmas because it's kind of these two huge holidays that are like beating up on Thanksgiving. And I don't know, it's. It's a spooky movie. It's 100% a Halloween movie. That is my final decision on that. What do you think, Millie?

[A]

Well, like, Santa Claus is in it, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So it can't be a Christmas movie.

[C]

Would you watch this on Christmas? Sure.

[A]

Why the fuck not? I mean, I don't know. Like, again, it goes back to the, like, real low stakes of a Christmas movie. If we can call Zodiac Christmas movie, why the. Are we not calling the Nightmare Before Christmas a Christmas movie?

[C]

Would you say it? But it's. It's. It's more a Halloween movie, though.

[A]

Okay. But also the idea that there is just simply a Christmas tinge to it means you can wash on Christmas. In my opinion, if we're going by the current metrics of what makes a Christmas movie a Christmas movie, I mean, maybe this is another Alonzo de Raleigh question. I'm just trying to provide a counterbalance to this definitive answer that you've given. Like a. You've got the definitive answer.

[C]

It's. Would you classify it a Christmas movie or a Halloween movie? And I would definitively classify it as a Halloween movie, I guess, in my estimation. But you know what? You think otherwise? And.

[A]

Well, I'm just saying the. I think I'm basing it on the current metrics of what makes a Christmas movie, which is that you just need like 0.01% of Christmas vibes and it becomes a Christmas movie. So by that standard, I would call this a Christmas movie. Do I think that it has more Halloween in it? Sure. But there's also more sex in Eyes Wide Shut than there is Christmas. And people watch it on Christmas. I think there's more explosions than Die Hard.

[C]

I also watch it on the sex holiday.

[A]

I also. I think there's more explosions in Die Hard than there is Christmas. And yet people watch Die Hard on Christmas. Do you know. Do you understand what I'm saying?

[C]

I don't think we helped Sydney or Lauren, but.

[A]

But we picked. I do understand sides, and I feel like we did provided a. A swath of opinions. So.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay. Well, thank you for everyone who wrote and called in. Please continue to do so. All right, it is time for employees picks where we pick movie recommendations based on the theme of the episode. Millie, what is your employee pick?

[A]

Well, this is a layup this week because I really don't feel like giving you something that's like, super obscure, but I'm going to pick Silence of the Lambs from 1991. Hell, yeah. Jonathan Demi, also about a serial killer. Also a crime procedural film. What. What have I not said about the Silence of the Lambs? It's a great film. Rewatched it like, semi recently in a theater and was scared to death as I was when I was watching Zodiac. So these are like, both, like movies that are extremely effective many years after. And yeah, that's a mark of a good movie to me. So I don't know if you haven't seen it for some reason, you should watch it.

[C]

Great movie. Putting the pieces together. It's thrilling.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

I also have a layup this week, and it is all the President's Men from 1976, a great newspaper movie. And I would consider Zodiac a great newspaper movie.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

There's such a high of a guy going around interviewing, getting all these little details and it coming together. And all the President's Men really scratches that itch. It's so exciting and enthralling and so fun and so like that 1970s paranoia movies. Those are so good. And. Yeah. And Rip Robert Redford, he's great in it.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Looking beautiful. So check out all the President's Men job. But that's our show in the future. If you'd like film advice or if you need a specific recommendation, if you have a gripe, a grope, a gratification, email us at DearMoviesactlyRightMedia. You can also send in a voicemail like a few of our listeners have, please do. So make sure it's under a minute. You recorded it in a nice quiet space. And you can email that to dearMoviesExactlyRightMedia.com also, please.

[A]

Okay, I made a call. I think it was either the last episode or the one before where I was like, please follow us on Instagram. And it seemed to have worked. So I'm gonna say it again. Follow us on Instagram. It's like, basically where we hang out besides the email, Right. We are at Dear Movies, I love you on Instagram. We're also on Facebook, if you're a Facebook person. And also we're on Letterbox, each of us individually. I'm at M. De Chirico, he's at Casey, Leo, Brian. And if you have the iHeartradio app, please listen to Dear Movies. I love you there. If you have Apple podcasts, we're also there. Honestly, wherever you get your podcasts.

[C]

That's right. And rate and review our show. It helps. Please. Okay, next week, big episode.

[A]

I think you kind of know what's going to happen because it's the end of the year. Goodbye 2025, and we're going to do a best of our faves from the year. Are we qualified to do that now, Millie?

[C]

I was just gonna ask the same goddamn question. I don't know if we have the qualifications to say what was the best of 2025, to be honest. But we're gonna try.

[A]

We'll try. We'll see what happens. Let's just say. Let's just say. Let's just walk in with good intentions and hopefully it'll work out.

[C]

The best of intentions. Yes. But yeah, that's it. Thank you, Millie. Hey, always a pleasure.

[A]

Thank you, Casey. I'm sorry you're getting those fart emails. Hopefully we can clear that up pretty quickly.

[C]

Yeah, no more fart emails, people, please.

[A]

Bye bye. This has been an exactly right production. Hosted by me, Millie de Chirico, and produced by my co host, Casey o'. Brien.

[C]

This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, our guest booker is Patrick Cotner, and our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

[A]

Our incredible theme music is by the best band in the entire world, the Softies.

[C]

Thank you to our executive producers, Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, Daniel Kramer and Millie Decherico. We love you. Goodbye.

[A]

Be kind.

[B]

Okay, only 10 more presents to wrap. You're almost at the finish line. But first, There the last one. Enjoy a Coca Cola for a pause that refreshes. At Hill's Pet Nutrition, we know that.

[C]

Pet parent guilt is real.

[B]

Leaving too long, playing too little. New homes, new babies, Waking them up when they look so comfy. Running out of patience. Running out of treats.

[C]

Running the vacuum.

[B]

You can only do so much. That's why there's hills. Science led nutrition to help you give more love than humanly possible. Because you're only human. There's hills. Find the right [e-mail] science does more being a small business owner isn't just a career, it's a calling. Chase for Business knows how much heart and effort go into building something of your own. Manage all your business finances, from banking to payments to credit cards, all in one place with our digital tools. Plus access online resources designed to help your business thrive. Learn [e-mail] business chase for business make more of what's yours The Chase Mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply. JPMorgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC Copyright 2025 JPMorgan Chase & Company.