I’ll Say Fandango Again

Summary

Episode Summary: “I’ll Say Fandango Again” – Dear Movies, I Love You

Release Date: October 15, 2024

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Introduction to the Episode

In this engaging episode titled “I’ll Say Fandango Again,” hosts Millie de Chirico and Danielle Henderson delve deep into the intricate relationship between masculinity and the reluctance of men to seek therapeutic help. Anchored by their signature blend of personal anecdotes and insightful film analysis, Millie and Danielle explore how societal expectations shape male behavior, especially concerning emotional expression and mental health.

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Personal Reflections: Navigating Feelings and Social Connections

Feelings Take Center Stage

The episode opens with Millie and Danielle emphasizing that the entire discussion revolves around feelings. Danielle shares, “[...] this entire episode will be about feelings in one way or another” (01:21), setting the tone for a heartfelt conversation.

Social Media Dynamics

A significant portion of their dialogue centers on social media habits, unfollowing, and the complexities of maintaining genuine connections online. Danielle reflects on her growing desire to reconnect with old friends, stating, “[...] I feel like I'm in this era where I want to reinvest in the people that I care about” (08:28). Millie adds her perspective on curating social media feeds, highlighting the importance of personal satisfaction over external validation.

The Shift Towards Therapeutic Engagement

Both hosts discuss their personal journeys with therapy. Millie shares her long-standing relationship with therapy, beginning at age 19, and how finding the right therapist has been transformative: “[...] I've been in therapy for a very, very, very, very long time” (36:11). Danielle contrasts this with her later start at age 35, emphasizing the challenges and eventual benefits: “[...] it was late, but I know you can get there, right?” (41:39).

Challenges and Growth

Danielle candidly addresses the fears and stigmas men face regarding therapy, noting, “[...] men just do not look inward until they are forced to by a life event” (23:12). Millie concurs, discussing the broader societal impacts of patriarchy on mental health, “[...] we’re all being affected by its rules and regulations” (45:15).

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Exploring the Theme: Men Will Do Anything Except Go to Therapy

The core theme of this episode revolves around the notion that men often avoid seeking therapy, opting instead for other means to cope with their emotions and challenges. Millie encapsulates this sentiment humorously: “[...] men will do anything except talk to someone about my feelings” (33:11).

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Movie Analysis

1. "A Serious Man" (2009) – Directed by Ethan and Joel Coen

Synopsis

Millie introduces “A Serious Man,” a Coen Brothers film starring Michael Stuhlbarg as Professor Larry Gopnik, a mathematics professor grappling with personal and professional turmoil in 1967 Minnesota. The narrative weaves through Larry’s attempts to maintain normalcy amidst a series of inexplicable misfortunes, reflecting the film’s exploration of fate, faith, and the elusive nature of happiness.

Key Themes and Symbolism

• Struggle with Faith and Purpose: Larry’s interactions with various rabbis highlight his quest for meaning and understanding in a seemingly indifferent universe. Danielle notes, “[...] Larry is trying to get some kind of therapeutic help, but they all fail” (36:24).

• Family and Responsibility: The Gopnik family's dynamics, including Larry’s strained marriage and his brother Arthur’s peculiar behavior, symbolize the burdens of familial obligations and the hidden struggles within seemingly perfect households.

• Symbolism of the Roof and Antenna: Millie interprets Larry’s perpetual efforts to fix the antenna as a metaphor for his inability to find clarity and stability: “[...] he's on this roof and not able to get it right” (49:14).

Notable Quotes

• Danielle shares a poignant moment from the film: “[...] Larry is this kind of dad, going about his business, doing everything he thinks he's supposed to do as a man in this era” (49:24).

• Millie reflects on the open-ended nature of the film’s conclusion, suggesting it signifies the end of the cursed family line: “[...] the ending of the film suggests that the Gopnik family line is about to end forever” (60:00).

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2. "The Swimmer" (1968) – Directed by Frank Perry

Synopsis

Danielle delves into “The Swimmer,” a film adaptation of John Cheever’s short story, starring Burt Lancaster as Ned Merrill. The narrative follows Ned as he embarks on an ambitious journey to swim home by traversing a series of suburban pools, symbolizing his desperate attempt to reclaim his shattered life and confront his emotional disarray.

Key Themes and Symbolism

• Quest for Redemption and Self-Realization: Ned’s unconventional journey through the pools serves as a metaphor for his internal struggle to reconcile his past mistakes and find a sense of belonging.

• Isolation and Disconnection: The film portrays Ned’s growing isolation as he faces fragmented relationships and unacknowledged failures, emphasizing the theme that men often isolate themselves instead of seeking help.

• Class and Racial Tensions: Interactions with neighbors and the depiction of affluent suburban life highlight underlying racial and class tensions, adding depth to Ned’s personal crisis.

Notable Quotes

• Millie humorously connects Ned’s quest to the episode’s theme: “[...] he is having a day full of denial and strangeness” (90:32).

• Danielle remarks on Ned’s characterization, questioning his reliability and trustworthiness: “[...] is he actually a bad guy? Did he have a mental break?” (92:51).

Memorable Scenes

• Interaction with Janice Rule: Danielle highlights a scene where Ned confronts a former lover, showcasing his inability to address his emotional shortcomings: “[...] she’s like, get away from me. You know what I mean?” (94:05).

• Symbolic Pool Encounters: Both hosts discuss how each pool Ned swims through represents different facets of his life and the societal pressures he faces, reinforcing the overarching theme of avoiding emotional vulnerability.

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Concluding Insights

Millie and Danielle wrap up the episode by reinforcing the importance of addressing emotional health and breaking societal stigmas surrounding therapy, especially for men. They advocate for openness and vulnerability as pathways to healthier relationships and personal well-being.

Final Thoughts:

Millie states, “[...] therapy is a lot more beneficial than the men will do anything except go to therapy” (36:11), emphasizing the transformative power of seeking professional help.

Danielle echoes this sentiment, urging listeners to overcome fears and embrace therapeutic conversations: “[...] if anybody wants to come back and make like a very earnest like opportunity to be a friend or to be back in each other's lives, I'm here for it” (25:58).

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Key Takeaways

• Breaking Stereotypes: The episode challenges traditional notions of masculinity by highlighting the emotional struggles men face and the societal barriers to seeking help.

• Film as Reflection: Through “A Serious Man” and “The Swimmer,” Millie and Danielle illustrate how cinema mirrors real-life issues related to mental health, relationships, and societal expectations.

• Encouraging Vulnerability: The hosts advocate for greater emotional openness and the destigmatization of therapy, fostering healthier individual and collective well-being.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Danielle Henderson (01:21): “This entire episode will be about feelings in one way or another.”

• Danielle Henderson (08:28): “I feel like I'm in this era where I want to reinvest in the people that I care about.”

• Millie de Chirico (33:11): “Men will do anything except talk to someone about my feelings.”

• Danielle Henderson (23:12): “Men just do not look inward until they are forced to by a life event.”

• Millie de Chirico (45:15): “We’re all being affected by its rules and regulations.”

• Millie de Chirico (36:11): “I've been in therapy for a very, very, very, very long time.”

• Danielle Henderson (41:39): “It was late, but I know you can get there, right?”

• Danielle Henderson (25:58): “If anybody wants to come back and make like a very earnest like opportunity to be a friend or to be back in each other's lives, I'm here for it.”

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Follow Dear Movies, I Love You: Stay connected and join the conversation by following Dear Movies, I Love You on Instagram @dearmoviesiloveyou and be part of their vibrant movie-loving community.

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This summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting the hosts' exploration of masculinity, therapy, and their in-depth analysis of two poignant films. Through personal anecdotes and cinematic critique, Millie and Danielle invite listeners to reflect on their own relationships with emotions and mental health.

Transcript

[Millie de Chairico]

We have a very exciting announcement. I saw what you did. Is going live for one show in Atlanta.

[Danielle Henderson]

That's right. Thursday, November 7th at 7:30pm in Atlanta, Georgia, at the Tara Theater.

[Millie de Chairico]

We will be discussing a film. We will be doing a little intro banter between Millie and I, and we're gonna have a chance to do a Q and A.

[Danielle Henderson]

And if you like games and loud laughter, we'll be doing that, too.

[Millie de Chairico]

Come through. See, I saw what you did live on Thursday, November 7, at the Tara Theater in Atlanta, Georgia.

[Danielle Henderson]

For ticket information, go to our socials. That's isawpod on Instagram, x Blue sky and Facebook.

[Millie de Chairico]

Be there. Don't be square. Be round and soft and at our show.

[Danielle Henderson]

Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of I Saw what yout Did. My name is Millie de Chairico. I'm Danielle Henderson, and this is a film podcast. But sometimes we talk about other things.

[Millie de Chairico]

Yeah. Frequently.

[Danielle Henderson]

Frequently. Especially at the top.

[Millie de Chairico]

Is that. Is that what's on the agenda for today?

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah, it says that, like, bullet point 1. Talk about my feelings. Oh, yay. No, we will talk. We will talk about feelings today. I think this entire episode will be about feelings in one way or another.

[Millie de Chairico]

It will be. For sure. For sure.

[Danielle Henderson]

I got a couple messages from our episode that aired a while back about poetry, and now people are sending me poetry to read.

[Millie de Chairico]

That's so nice.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah, Very sweet. Very sweet. But a lot of people being like, oh, it's cool that you didn't delete the intro to that episode that you thought you might, because I don't know. I don't know what we were talking about. I think it was just, like sort of talking about womanhood and aging and poetry. And then I caught myself saying that, and I was like, man, this is a bummer. We should just delete this. And you were like, no, don't. So whoever wrote in and said they were glad we didn't do was me.

[Millie de Chairico]

From my fake. My fake email account here.

[Danielle Henderson]

Burner Instagram account, which we both have.

[Millie de Chairico]

I put that fence to the good use. I created another one just to respond to you.

[Danielle Henderson]

Listen, I'm not above that. I think you should have different fake Instagrams for different purposes. I mean, one is complaining about people's podcasts. The other is signing up for winning. Trying to win sweepstakes on. On different Instagram accounts.

[Millie de Chairico]

Or why. Why aren't there more sweepstakes? Where did that go?

[Danielle Henderson]

I feel like there's too many sweepstakes.

[Millie de Chairico]

I don't see any sweepstakes in my day to Day travels on Instagram, Really?

[Danielle Henderson]

I feel like there's always a thing that said, you know, hey, win this, whatever it is, rice cooker or something. All you have to do is follow our Instagram account, follow the Instagram accounts of five other people, tag 10 people, post a picture of you with the rice cooker, which is like, I don't even have one yet, so how am I supposed to do that? You know, go out there and put up flyers that you've hand drew for our rice cooker. It's just like a lot of steps. And so I'm like, man, like, I.

[Millie de Chairico]

Feel good about how well crafted apparently my Instagram is because I don't ever see any of that shit. I follow cats, I follow artists, I follow people who are like making weird art. And. And my actual friends and my actual friends are not doing any sweepstakes, so I gotta branch out maybe a little bit, get some sweepstakes offers.

[Danielle Henderson]

Well, that's the thing is that my, my public facing Instagram is a mess. I follow a lot of people. Like, it's like I follow. I mean, you know, I'm just hitting follow on whomever seems interesting and, you know, people that I'm friends with and businesses and famous. Some famous people, whatever. But then my, my Fensta account is very highly curated in that way that you've talked about is that it's like poetry accounts and art galleries and a couple friends.

[Millie de Chairico]

Yeah, I think that's smart. I had to. This is years ago now, but I started archiving my Instagram every year. I will only leave up to 10 photos for the whole year and then I archive everything else. But I also unfollowed a bunch of people. You know what really helped? I went through Possibly cruel, but I went through all of my muted accounts. Like, because sometimes I'll mute people because I'm like, all right, they're on like a press junket and they're just posting too much about their thing. And like, I want them to do it, but I just don't want to see it all the time. Sometimes I mute people. Cause I'm just like, I don't know why I followed. If I have someone on mute for over a year, I unfollow them.

[Danielle Henderson]

Oh, wow, that's an interesting rule.

[Millie de Chairico]

Yeah, I'm just like, it's just I'm clearly not. This is not for me. There was someone I went through recently and looked at that list, and there's someone who I haven't spoken to in actual years. We were very tentative friends to Begin with. And then I looked at their account and I'm like, oh, you got married and had a whole ass baby, and I didn't know. So it's time to unfollow.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah. I don't know. I feel like unfollow is such a huge statement that I'm. I don't know, maybe I should. Maybe I should rethink this. I don't unfollow it because I feel like it's. It's so divisive. Like, I'm like, what's the. You know, what's the harm in just muting forever kind of thing? It's like, would I rather just mute forever than deal with the aggravation of somebody potentially calling me out for unfollowing them? Right.

[Millie de Chairico]

Maybe. Maybe I understand that fully. Yeah. I think I'm just. I'm not very sensitive to it because I don't mind. I don't mind it in the other way. Like, if someone unfollows me, I'm just like, whatever.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah, I feel that way too. That's interesting, because when I find out that I've been unfollowed, I don't really. I think about it for, like, maybe a second and then I'm like, okay, who cares? Yeah, some. Sometimes, like, people get weird about, you know, just sort of like, I don't know, like, the rules of the Internet, which are just, like, completely fake to me. Like, you shouldn't have. You shouldn't be following more people than you f. Like, you shouldn't be following more people that follow you. I'm like, what does that mean?

[Millie de Chairico]

Like, you're.

[Danielle Henderson]

You're a lame person if you have a million followers and you follow a million point one people, like, there's some kind of thing there. I don't know. I feel like that's fake, but I.

[Millie de Chairico]

Can'T get behind this arbitrary shit. And I. I still firmly believe that my social media is for me. I can do whatever I want. And it's all about what you want to see or engage with, so who fucking cares? Why would you ask someone about what they're choosing to see and engage with? That's weird to me.

[Danielle Henderson]

I don't know what's going on right now. This is going back to the earlier point of, like, something's happening in the world right now. Because I swear to God, I have gotten so many messages from people in my past recently that I'm like, is there something happening? Like, what. What is happening in the world that now all of a sudden, I'm Getting messages from people that I knew when I was like 17 years old.

[Millie de Chairico]

What's the caliber of the message?

[Danielle Henderson]

Like, what's up? Sometimes it's like I was watching this thing and it made me think of you. Like, they're very nice. It's very nice messages. It isn't people like, from my teenagers being like, why did you unfollow Taco Bell's social media account? Or something? It's like people who are like, just trying to get back in touch. And then the craziest part is that I feel like I have been also, I don't know, feeling this weird instinct to like, get back in touch with people that I haven't talked to in a while.

[Millie de Chairico]

Yeah.

[Danielle Henderson]

And I think it's because I've just been super busy, like lately. And I don't know, maybe I'm having like a sentimental early fall where I'm like, man, I should say happy birthday to my old friend from college. And then it ends up that we end up talking for a while and I just am like, wow, this is so crazy. It's happening to me. But I'm also putting out that energy too. I don't know. So it's worth.

[Millie de Chairico]

It's strange. I think that comes in waves. You know, there are points of life where you're more introspective and reflective and you know, fall is always a good time for that because you're kind of. After being outside for months, you're kind of back inside and looking at things and thinking about things. So that makes sense to me that, that you would reach out and that people would reach out to you. I think that if it's welcome, that's great and if it's not, we could just ignore it. But it's kind of, you know, it's interesting that I think it's cool that, that you've made an impact on people that they think of you when they. They're watching something.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah, I like it too, honestly. And what I think is also pretty interesting is, is that in ser. In some of these cases, like the, like, I've gotten back in touch with, with, with someone whom, like we ended up having the other night, like, like a two hour conversation, like in person about old stuff. And it was so wonderful to be a part of that conversation because I don't know, I. I like, knew this person a long time ago and we've known each other through the years, like we're still functionally friends, but I think when we first met, he was a little younger than me and I. I don't know. I guess you just never know, like, when you're a young person, like, when you hang out with people, you're like, I don't know, what are these moments that we have? Like, do I remember, you know, certain. Certain moments that I have with certain friends from a long time ago. I will always have these memories. But then it's like you're part of somebody's memory that you don't. You remember it. But it's almost like somebody tells you in that moment that it was so impactful for them and you're just like, wow. Like, I remember it happening, you know, but then it touches me so much that they're like, oh, by the way, like, in this moment, this, like, changed my life or this was like a turning point for me and you were involved and I was like, I don't know. I think it's because I'm. Like I said, I'm. I'm this, like, tender, open little, little person right now that I'm just like, I don't know. That really meant a lot to me. It really meant a lot to me hearing that, you know?

[Millie de Chairico]

Yeah.

[Danielle Henderson]

So the other. So then when I got home that night, for some reason, I look at my horoscope late at night, like, when I'm in bed, I feel like it's just like. What I do is I just, like, open up my astrology app and I'm like, I'm just gonna read my horoscope for the next hour and then read the horoscope for the hour after. You know, it's like a late night astrology thing. So I opened the astrology app and, like, part of my horoscope, this is what it said. The general theme of your life during this period is to have more meaningful interactions. Love is a delicate, violent process of finding truths two people can share.

[Millie de Chairico]

Good lord. All right. Astrology.

[Danielle Henderson]

I know. I was like, yo, that app just read me for filth.

[Millie de Chairico]

Delicate violence. My God.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah. Love is a delicate, violent process of finding truths that between two people, which I'm like, I actually believe that. So this is amazing. I mean, very rarely do I go, my astrology is 100% accurate. But in this case, I'm like, yo, this is like, good, good words here. But that's the thing is that I feel like I think the general theme of my life right now is having more meaningful interactions.

[Millie de Chairico]

Yeah, that's fantastic. That's fantastic.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah.

[Millie de Chairico]

I think it's a worthwhile way to spend your time always is to get deeper with people. Connect with things. I absolutely think that's worthwhile.

[Danielle Henderson]

Well, and I think part of it too is that I think I've reached this point where I've been really processing a lot of things that have happened to me in the past couple years especially. And I do feel like I'm in this era or I'm in a zone where I am seeking out more meaning generally. And I want to be less busy or distracted when I'm in the presence of people that I really care about or just people in general. Right. I think that like, as a young person, I was just really aloof to a lot of things. I mean, we've talked about this. Like, I just was like kind of riding the wind of like being, you know, a person that was into like cool things and in the world and like going to concerts and meeting people and I was just like socially, you know, I was just a butterfly in that way. Right. And so I had a lot of acquaintances. I had some really good friends, but I had a lot of acquaintances. Right.

[Millie de Chairico]

Yeah.

[Danielle Henderson]

Over the years, I think obviously that has inverted. So now I have just like really good friends and sort of less acquaintances. But I still feel, I guess maybe a certain amount of guilt about. Maybe not like, I don't want to say that I had one foot out the door necessarily, but I just think I was really like, I just kind of, I don't know, thought maybe that people were just gonna stick around just because loyalty or you know, like, whatever. Like you're just like, oh, whatever. And I'm also like that too. Right. Where I'm really good on my own. I have moments where I'm like really, really, really social. But then I sometimes need a moment. Right. And I, and I have lived alone for very long time. I'm kind of self contained. So it's not as if I like necessarily need like a lot of social interaction at this point, but it's also like, I don't know, I felt like maybe I'm feeling this need to sort of re. Almost like reinvest in the people that I care about. And sometimes that includes people that I haven't talked to. I mean, the functional relationship is that we haven't. They live somewhere else or they're busy, they have something going on and I do too. And like, we're just not like talking every day, but every time we talk I have this feeling of wanting to like, really understand where they're coming from and just like double down on my part of it. My empathy and my listening skills and my everything you know.

[Millie de Chairico]

Yeah.

[Danielle Henderson]

And I think that's kind of what happened the other night with my friend was that, you know, he was just kind of telling me, like, all the stuff that happened. There's, you know, a lot of, you know, not putting this business out there, obviously, but, you know, it was. People have, like, tragedy and trauma in their lives and then, you know, later come to it and sort of have different perspectives. And so, I don't know, just kind of, like, came at it. Like, we started talking very deeply about things that had happened and about, like, some impacts that I had made and some impacts that he had made on me. And I just felt like, man, like, what a good night. Like, what a good experience that was. And I want to be doing that all the time, you know.

[Millie de Chairico]

That's incredible. I think it's fantastic. I think it's. It is kind of related to the time we're in together culturally, where I think people are just kind of coming out of some darkness. I think. I still think a lot of it is tied to lockdown, but I think a lot of people are still trying to rediscover each other and check in and kind of be like, who are you now? Where are you now? I have always loved you, and I want to be better friends. And I just think people have a little bit more room for that right now than they have in the past, possibly. But also, it's an important evolution for you to reach that point, too, because I think it's hard to go from being aloof or feeling like you've been aloof with people to being like, no, I want to actually change what our relationship is, in a way. It's a hard thing to do. So I'm glad that you're doing that with people who are already receptive to that and really want that from you as well.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think aloofness is, like. I think when you're younger, it's almost necessary in certain regards because it is like, you just. Especially if you're a person who is sort of more extroverted. Like, you can't possibly know every single person as deeply and as you know, richly as you. As you want. And those people aren't even showing those things to you half the time, and you're not even showing those things to them. So there's a way to sort of balance, like, these acquaintances and this, like, kind of, you know, I don't know, I call them going out friends. Right. Where it doesn't get deep. And there have been Times where I thought I wanted to get closer or deeper with somebody who just like, wasn't. It wasn't the vibe, they weren't willing to work on themselves or sort of get to that point. And so, you know, you just have to like, let that stuff go. But over the years as I think I've like pulled away from like going out a lot and just sort of doing that whole scene. Like, yeah, I spend more time alone. I've obviously like gone through a lot more. I've been to a lot more therapy and I think I'm about as willing and as like, I think I'm probably the most emotionally mature I've ever been in my entire life. I really know who I am now in a way that like, I did not know myself when I was 25. Like, and it keeps happening over and over and over again. So it's not as if like the light bulb went off and I'm like, completely this like, you know, self actualized person. Like every single day is a learning experience about myself. But compared to what I was when I was 25, I mean, I can't even tell you, like, but also in that way that I'm not, I'm not like embarrassed by that. I'm not embarrassed by being 25 and like having weird like druggy friendships with like people that weren't deep and sort of not being as present, I think, as I am now. And I'm not holding against that stuff against other people too. Right. Like to that person who wasn't ready for like a close friendship when we were like in our 20s, I'm like, that's fine. Like if it, if they came to me tomorrow and was like, I really want to know you again and like, let's work on things, I'd be like, fuck, yeah. But I'm not going to be like, well, when you were 27, you never called me and you were like, too cool for me or whatever. You know, you didn't want to access your deep thoughts about politics or relationships or whatever. I'm not holding that against anybody. Like, nobody should be embarrassed by those years is what I feel like.

[Millie de Chairico]

Oh God, no. And it's also, it's more like if I'm going to center it more personally, it's also that I have to be. I feel like I have to be open to the fact that I can try to get close to people now and maybe it won't work. And that's okay too.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah.

[Millie de Chairico]

Like some people are meant to be, you know, in your life in A certain way at a certain time. And, you know, if you're trying and you're like, oh, actually, I'm not really feeling this, then that's okay.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah, that's all right.

[Millie de Chairico]

But it's the openness that matters and the wanting to know people that matters.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah, I agree. I mean, like, it's. It's fine if. If. If it never happens too. Like, they're. I mean, I have to, like, really. I've had to really let that go, like, where I'm just like, listen, like, this. This friendship, this relationship, this whatever is, like, not gonna be anything more than what it is. And if it's broken and up, then that's just the way it's got to be. And I gotta move on. And I wish them the best, but it's. It's really, you know, like, what. What can I do? As long as I keep my side of the street clean? Right. That's what I've always told myself. So. But I. But I. But the interactions, like. Like I said, I don't know. I just. Like, there's nothing more satisfying to me right now than to have a really enriching, warm, interesting, emotional, you know, et cetera, conversation with somebody that I like talking to. Like, that's fantastic. And it doesn't even have to be somebody who was, like, a friend of mine from when I was 17. It could be, like a person I just met.

[Millie de Chairico]

Yeah.

[Danielle Henderson]

You know, if you can access that. That part of, like, if you can have a meaningful, you know, interesting conversation with someone, it doesn't matter how long you've known them. I mean, that is, like, such a gift to be a part of that with, like, being the other person, you know, that you bounce those ideas off of. I don't know. It's like. I guess I'm getting sensitive in my old age, but I'm like, I just want to talk.

[Millie de Chairico]

Yeah, I think it's a personal shift, you know. I think it's a very personal shift that you've made, that maybe, like, this has always been available to you, but you had to realize it and be able to come to it when you were ready, you know? And maybe that's what people are picking up on with you when they're coming back and being like, hey, I actually really want to know you and, like, talk with you. And you're like, yeah, I'm doing that now. Like, I can do that with you now.

[Danielle Henderson]

Well, and I have to say, I mean, I'm not trying to call anybody out here, certainly, but I find that sometimes when men have children, suddenly, suddenly the conversation starts flowing, baby. And I'm like, huh, Wonder why. Really?

[Millie de Chairico]

Have you been noticing that? Uh huh. Really? What is that? Where does that come from for you?

[Danielle Henderson]

I just feel like men, they just do not look inward until they are forced to by a life event. Because I'm not, like, I'm not going to call anybody out because I will say that the majority of the people who have gotten back in touch with me are men.

[Millie de Chairico]

Yeah.

[Danielle Henderson]

And a lot of them are parents. Whatever stage of parenthood or their lives they're in. Some of them are, you know, their kids are older, some of them are younger, some of the. Some of them are divorced, some of them are not. Some of them are single parents, whatever it is. But I'm just like, okay, like, this is a theme. I'm seeing a theme. And I don't know why, like, suddenly being a dad means you're in your feelings about some shit and now you just want to talk about it with me and I'm here. I'm here. Isn't that weird?

[Millie de Chairico]

Stephen, I. I also want. I would, for myself, I would be really careful with that as well. Like, I think it's great that you're open to it and they're clear. You're clearly only talking to people that you want to also know. But I'm really dubious of that when people come back around and it's still all about them. And I'm like, I don't know, man.

[Danielle Henderson]

Well, it's. Although, no, well, these aren't strangers, by the way. These are my friends, so I know them. And I also, I don't feel that. Yeah, I'm like, I'm. I'm not, I'm not feeling, I'm not feeling distrusting right now. I'm open and I'm just like, you know what? Like, let's talk. I mean, if you want to process some shit about the ways in which you were like a bad guy in your 20s and now you've changed, I'm here. If you want to talk about how we drifted apart because of whatever life choices you've made or whatever, I'm here. Like, whatever. Like, I'm not judging. So that's where I'm at. And I, And I'm like. And I will say it's not just, it's any. I'm not judging anybody right now. Like, yeah, I don't know. I'm like, I'm dropping the like, whole what's this about? Type of feeling. You know, I'm like if anybody wants to come back and make like a very earnest like opportunity to be a friend or to be back in each other's lives, I'm here for it. And I'm. I don't know, part of me, I think, I don't know, maybe it will bite me in the ass one day, but I don't know, I'm feeling the love. So I'm just like.

[Millie de Chairico]

Yeah, I don't say that as if it'll bite you in the ass. I'm saying for me personally, because I've always been very open and my, I've always, I've never had a problem having deep friendships and keeping them around for years and all of that. So I think for me personally I have to be a little more careful because I am the kind of person who is generous to a fault and I'm trying to temper that which comes with. Yeah, I have to be a little bit more discerning because I never have been before. So I'm learning how to be discerning which isn't necessarily like closing things down, but I just, I have to be careful about protecting myself. And that usually comes in line with new friendships. But you know, cause my, the. I feel like my friends are, My friendships are pretty established in terms of like who's in the circle, like who I'm tight with. But when people kind of come around now I just, I don't know, I've learned how to be a little bit distrusting because I've had a lot of situations where people have taken advantage of me, just to be quite honest. And so that's what I'm leery of. I'm not saying you have to be leery of that, but I'm definitely like, what's happening here? I'm open to hearing about it, but I'm not open to always giving myself fully to people if I feel like, eh, I don't know about this agenda, this, that they have with being in my life.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah, well, that's a delicate balance. I mean, you're absolutely right. I mean I've been taken taken advantage of too. My kindness has been taken advantage of too. But I feel like again, I'm at this point where I feel like I think I'm okay. I think I don't have to worry as much about that because I have figured out boundaries and I figured out ways of, of. Of not having those people pleasing instincts where I do want to just give everything to people because they say something nice to me. Right. Like I've changed a lot in that way. And I feel like I'm like, okay, well, I feel like now I can understand a situation where I feel like in a former iteration of me, I would have totally, you know, been like, oh my God, these people are back in my life. I should let them like move in and give them a stipend and give them all of my time and help them with their careers and, you know, that kind of stuff. I see that coming from a lot. Like, I see it coming now. And if I feel like it's going in that direction, I know when to pump the brakes. I know myself. I know that I'm just one woman who has finite amount of personal resources. I can't just give to one person. So, yeah, I think I trust myself a lot more now than I did before. And that's great because now it feels like, okay, well, I can have those interactions, I can have deep friendships with people without it feeling like this, like one sided thing.

[Millie de Chairico]

Yeah.

[Danielle Henderson]

And if I feel like it's becoming a one sided thing, then I adjust. You know what I mean?

[Millie de Chairico]

Right.

[Danielle Henderson]

But it doesn't, it doesn't take away from the interaction. I feel like, I feel like if somebody wants to talk to me very deeply and candidly about something, I'm going to be there for them. And, you know, I'm not constantly thinking, what's this about? Which is growth. Because I thought about that a lot.

[Millie de Chairico]

Right.

[Danielle Henderson]

In my more aloof days. I did.

[Millie de Chairico]

So, no, it's definitely growth and that's what we're all moving towards. Always. I'm constantly, I think that reevaluating of self is really just about reevaluating the ways that you're growing or want to grow and change. So I feel that. I think it's healthy.

[Danielle Henderson]

Thanks. I do too. And I'm just, you know, I'm feeling this very, I don't know, just like new era of life happening and I'm kind of excited by it. I'm just like, you know what? Now I'm a person who's not coming at things with like a ton of judgments and a ton of. I don't want to be scared anymore. I don't want to be. I don't want to prejudge situations. I just want to meet people very earnestly where they are and not get so caught up in the like, you know, socialness of the interaction, you know.

[Millie de Chairico]

Right.

[Danielle Henderson]

And I'm hoping that that is a good tactic to. To experience love quite honestly. So.

[Millie de Chairico]

Yeah, that's exciting. I think it is a good tactic. To experiencing love, which you deserve, of course.

[Danielle Henderson]

And as it does everybody. You know, I think that's like, the. The overall message is that it's like, love comes in many forms. Love is a. What did it say? What did. My horoscope said? Love is a delicate and violent process of finding truth.

[Millie de Chairico]

Oh, my goodness.

[Danielle Henderson]

So there we go. Well, thanks for listening. I don't know why I decided to talk about this today. Cause I've had at least three Coke Zeros in the past hour. So.

[Millie de Chairico]

The emotional soda, sometimes three sodas.

[Danielle Henderson]

Really gets me in my feelings, and it doesn't make me scream and go crazy. So who knows how it hits?

[Millie de Chairico]

Well, speaking of delicate violence. The delicate violence of love.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah. Let's get into them. You named it. Of course. So you gotta say it. What's our theme?

[Millie de Chairico]

So our theme this week is Men will do anything except go to therapy. And there are so many movies I could have picked. Like, we could have picked for this theme. I think we picked some pretty good ones.

[Danielle Henderson]

But you have been saying this line for years, by the way, and it.

[Millie de Chairico]

Doesn'T come from me. Like, this is something I picked up purely on the Internet, really. Oh, yeah. This is not like, I created. I've heard people say that and seen people post memes about it.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah.

[Millie de Chairico]

And it cracks me up every time because it'll be like, you know, like, three guys in a mosh pit, and somebody will just put, like, men will do anything except go to therapy over it. Yeah.

[Danielle Henderson]

I mean, this is literally what we just spoke about in the intro. Men will do anything except go to therapy, including talking to my ass for two hours. Not a licensed therapist about. About being a new dad or whatever. Like, go to therapy. Go to therapy, friends.

[Millie de Chairico]

And it is. It is. Therapy is a gendered thing. It's a class thing. It's a racial thing. Like, it. There's several reasons why people don't access therapy. I totally get it financially. Like, I totally get it. But men in particular, I feel like. Like, I will eat nothing but meat for three years instead of go to therapy. Like, I feel like the men in my life are always trying to, like, hack not going to therapy.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah.

[Millie de Chairico]

So it's like, I'll do this crazy diet. I'll do this insane exercise. I'll do this. Like, I'll literally do anything except talk to someone about my feelings.

[Danielle Henderson]

And you do think it's because they feel like going to therapy is too feminine?

[Millie de Chairico]

I think it's that a lot of men haven't been taught how to express their Feelings like that generationally, that was not a thing that was encouraged. So it's enough of a foreign entity that it feels not just too feminine, but I think it just feels too strange. Like, if you've never talked about your feelings before, it's difficult to say, yeah, I'm gonna go talk to a stranger about them for an hour every week. But, yeah, I think there is, like, a feminization angle to it that is interesting. And I'm thinking, you know, I'm thinking of, like, you know, the Sopranos. And, you know, even the way it's presented pop culturally, where it's, you know, there's definitely, like, a feminized angle to it. But I'm also. I'm also excited to say and encouraged to say that a lot more men I know are in therapy and have gone to therapy and started addressing their shit.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah, I agree. And I. I think more now than ever, which is so exciting. You know, there's also a stigma, too, about therapy and, like, you know, kind of, I don't know, immigrant culture as well. Like, my. My. Both my parents would never go, because you don't need therapy. You just need your family. But then I'm like, well, what if the family is the problem? Then what? Which I think is like, you know, kind of for men of color, for men who exist outside of that kind of American sensibility. Yeah, that's like a double. A double whammy being like, no, they don't want you to go, because why the hell would you go? Oh, you're a man, and you're from, you know, like, a different culture. You're not an American culture. So it's hard.

[Millie de Chairico]

I did this. I'm doing this kind of. It's like a. Like a gender equality and repair kind of seminar, I guess you could say that I'm doing on Saturday mornings for a couple of weeks. And there are people from all over the world in this group. And it's exciting. It's exciting to see, you know, men from Kenya or from, you know, Nigeria or parts of India. Like, it's exciting to see people internationally starting to address the fact that the ways that they have been complicit in either benefiting from a gendered world or enacting gendered behavior that doesn't serve them anymore. So it's just been really exciting to kind of be part of it and, you know, enhance my own knowledge that way and to change my own mind in some ways. But it's. I still think that men will do anything except go to therapy.

[Danielle Henderson]

What can I ask you? What? When did you decide to start going to therapy? Yeah.

[Millie de Chairico]

Oh God, when I was like 19.

[Danielle Henderson]

Really?

[Millie de Chairico]

So yeah.

[Danielle Henderson]

You've been to therapy since you were 19?

[Millie de Chairico]

Yeah, I've been in therapy for a very long time.

[Danielle Henderson]

Okay. And was it a thing where you were like I should go or did somebody be like you should go?

[Millie de Chairico]

At first it was, somebody had to tell me that I should go. It was a doctor because I was suicidally depressed and you know, she was like, you have to talk to someone about this. And kind of explained to me what therapy was and gave me, you know, a couple of recommendations and you know, kind of paved the way for me to be able to go see someone. It took me a long time to realize that I also had to ask questions and that I had to find the right person, that it wasn't just any therapist that was going to be able to deal with any problem. Most can help most people, but I had some real deep seated shit. So I started looking for specialists and people who actually specialized in the field that I needed. But yeah, I've been in therapy for a very, very, very, very long time. Even when I was dead broke, I would find therapists who had sliding scales where I could pay 20 bucks a session or you know, I've just been working at it for like over 30 years.

[Danielle Henderson]

Wow.

[Millie de Chairico]

So I. But it definitely took someone saying to me, you, you should try, like this is a thing. Because I didn't even realize it was something I could do because the only way I'd seen it presented, but the only way I guess it showed up in my life up till that point was in pop culture and it was only for rich white people. Like I only saw rich white people in the movies going to therapy.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah.

[Millie de Chairico]

And then it was always a joke. It's like, haha, you're in therapy. And I'm like, well, what is, what is this? So I had to figure out, what, what is it? How does it benefit me? Can it benefit me? It's a lot of hoops to jump through to even go. Yeah, so I get it. Like I understand why men will do anything except go to therapy, but I do think that talking about it more openly hopefully opens the door for people to realize that it is something that is for everybody. You just have to find the way that it's right for you.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I will say I'm the opposite. I mean, I came to it kind of later in life. I mean, I think when I was a kid and up until high school, and college and stuff I had seen, you know, I had like an appointment here and there. At some point, my parents actually did want me to go see a therapist. When I was like, I don't know, 16 or something like that. That lasted like one sec, I was like, I don't even know. They just drove me downtown and dropped me off in front of an office building. And then I was like, oh, I guess I'm supposed to go talk to this person. And then I never went back. That's all I remember. But then it wasn't until I was like, 35 that I actually started going for real consistently. And then I began to really understand how to do it, which is not you monologuing about your fandango. I keep saying the word fandango, but there's no other way to say it. Like, it's not like a comedy routine, honestly. Right, right.

[Millie de Chairico]

And did you go because you felt like you needed to or because someone told you to go?

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah, no one told me. I hit a point internally where I was feel. I don't know, I think around 35, 36. I was starting to feel, you know, like, the anxiety and the stress of life, I guess. You know, I was in, you know, like, having a moment where I'm like, oh, I'm 35, and I'm like, am I going to have kids? Am I going to get married? Like, what is it all like? I was having ennui, basically. I didn't even know what the fuck it was back then. I just thought it was, like, anxiety. And so I went to my actual doctor doctor, and I was just like, yeah, I don't know, should I get on meds or whatever? You know, like, just doing the thing that I didn't know. I, you know, I don't know, I was just. Was like, put me on medication. And she was like, have you, you know, maybe tried to change some lifestyle things, you know, like, get more sleep, like, eat better, exercise or maybe go to, you know, talk therapy. And I was like, I will try all those things, I guess. And therapy was the last one of it. I mean, I think I was like, I was already, like, working out and, like, doing all my shit, and I felt great. Like, I had felt better just by making lifestyle choices. But then it wasn't. Like, the last bit of it was like, well, I should maybe I should just go to therapy and just see what it's about. And then I started going and that was it. Like, I haven't stopped since. And like I said, I think it was late. I think 35, 36 is pretty late to start it. I mean, comparatively. But. But. Yeah, but then I. But then also getting over the hurdle initially of it being, like, thinking of the movie version of therapy, which is that you just, like, you know, are, you know, like this. This anxious person who's just monologues about their life and gets no feedback and there's no work involved.

[Millie de Chairico]

Yeah.

[Danielle Henderson]

I had to change my thinking about that. That took, like, a year. So really, it was like 37 when I started really going.

[Millie de Chairico]

That's when I started actually doing therapy.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah. So. So for the men out there that don't want to go, I'm just telling you, it took me a while. Yeah, but you can get there, right?

[Millie de Chairico]

Absolutely. And I started asking the questions. You know, I started realizing that therapists have specialties. So I. When I found the therapist that I'm working with now, who I've been with for, like, seven, almost eight years, I asked her, like, well, what is your. What you're training in or what do you specialize in? Because these are my issues. You know, she said she's. And she does, like, she deals with object permanence and, you know, all the stuff that I need.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah.

[Millie de Chairico]

But I also realized that. And this is why I really do love my. My therapist, because I realized it's. It is beneficial for me to have someone who challenges me and pushes back on my thoughts.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah.

[Millie de Chairico]

So for a long time, I went to therapy, and it was just like, I'm sad. Here are my feelings. And someone saying, like, well, it'll get better. Won't always be that way. And not really connecting to me in a way where I was making any actual changes. This is the first therapist I've worked with that kind of pushed me into making changes and not pushed me in a forceful way, but just helped me discover that I needed to make changes and then worked with me on how to do that. So I feel like I'm the healthiest I've ever been because I'm working with someone who actually challenges me and doesn't let me just sit in my bad feelings and try to make me feel better week to week, but instead is like, well, why don't you. Like, you should do this? Or this is. This is a symptom of X. You should do Y. Or these are like, she would. She constantly gives me things that I should, like, write down. She's like, write this down and put it on your desk. Especially when we talk. It took me years to realize I could talk to her about Work. It wasn't just about, like, my life, my love life. She's like, what's going on at work? And I'm like, yeah, I have a lot of feelings about my career and the career that I've chosen and how deficient I feel sometimes and how out of place I feel because I didn't go to school for this. And just like, everything that comes up, I didn't realize I should be talking to her about this as well. It's not just always about my mom. So I think I definitely. I appreciate taking that. I had to take the time to find someone who was exactly who I needed to talk to. Yeah. So that does. It all takes effort and it takes effort and time and money that a lot of people don't have.

[Danielle Henderson]

Well, and also, too. I mean, maybe to this point, I feel like that's it, to be a generalist, or maybe I think that the hardest thing to accept about the therapeutic process is that you do not have control and that you have to wanna be known in order for it to work. And I feel like perhaps men don't wanna give that up. They don't like the feeling of being out of control and being seen and, you know, having somebody have some weird fucking control on them mentally, you know, And I'm just like, yo, it actually is freeing sometimes to not have that. Like, sometimes it is nice to just fucking be a river of fucking messy emotions and not know where it goes and where it stops. Just like, fucking let yourself. Let yourself feel my dudes. Like, we talk about this all the time. Like, we talked about this like, a couple weeks ago with, like, the Le Circle Rouge and the Jean Pierre Melville filmography. It's like, you know, if you just kind of allow. Allow the authenticity of emotions happen, then maybe we wouldn't have war and, you know, fucking destruction and things. And if everybody was. If all the men were just in therapy, I think we'd have a kinder world, maybe. I don't know.

[Millie de Chairico]

Well, this is the thing about patriarchy that I think a lot of people need to discover is that it hurts all of us. It hurts men. It hurts everyone across the gender spectrum completely because we're all being affected by its rules and regulations. But, yeah, I do think that it's. I think it's very important for people to know that there are different ways to access therapy but find the right fit for you. Maybe you don't want to be challenged because it's interesting, because to me, I don't think of therapy as a giving up of Control. I think of it more as, yes, things will come up that you cannot control. Emotions will happen that you can't control, but you're in the hands of somebody who can help you learn what to do with them. If your therapist is great, you'll be in the hands of someone who won't just leave you there in those feelings. So that to me is the more important part of it. Like, yeah, you need to learn that. And I think a lot of people already know that they can't control their emotions, which is why they're afraid of therapy. But yeah, you're already not in control of those emotions. So it's better to be in the hands of someone who can help you regulate and figure out what those emotions mean and how to address them in a healthy way. And there's just. It's a lot, it's a very beneficial process. I, I would not be the person I am without therapy. I wouldn't be alive literally without therapy. And I think that, you know, the things that I've processed over the years have just put me in a much more gentle way of life and a much more peaceful way of life, mentally and externally. Just having peace is something I never thought I'd be able to attain. So I'm, I love it. And I wish every. I constantly push dudes in my life to go to therapy. I'm like, why are you not talking to somebody? Like, why are you white knuckling life? Like, you don't have to be, you don't have to.

[Danielle Henderson]

Well, and like, this is the thing that's interesting about these two movies this week is that I feel like even though mine is of the era and yours is basically like a period piece, Right. It's kind of the same era of man.

[Millie de Chairico]

Yeah.

[Danielle Henderson]

Who I feel like are the most get your ass to therapy types of people that ever existed in history, except for maybe, you know, the Conquistadors or something. Like, like guy, like boomer guys, like middle aged guys in the 50s and 60s. Should they go to therapy? I would say immediately, if they're still alive. But in these movies they're a fudgeing mess. Right.

[Millie de Chairico]

A lot of mess is happening and they are in some cases ignoring it, in some cases a little too keyed into it. In my movie, I'll talk about it, but I do think I have to give credit to the main character for trying to talk to someone. But it's not therapy and it's not useful. But yeah, there's a big need for it in this era. But I Think that this is where it's persisted from this point because this was like the model of masculinity for so long.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah. Ultimately, I think that's. That's why movies, because. And also tv. I mean, I think about Mad Men. I think people were obsessed with Mad Men because they wanted to dissect Don Draper and like, what. Who he was. And like, he was just this enigmatic fucking 60s, middle aged weirdo and everybody wanted to know him. And that's. I think what happens is, like, when you see things from this time period, you do look at this certain specific type of masculinity and you're like, wow, that has changed a lot, right?

[Millie de Chairico]

A lot, a lot.

[Danielle Henderson]

So.

[Millie de Chairico]

Well, I'm going first.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah, let's go. I'm so excited. I haven't seen your movie in so long.

[Millie de Chairico]

I'm gonna dig right into it. My movie was released in 2009. The screenplay is by Ethan Cohen and Joel Cohen. It was directed by Ethan Cohen and Joel Cohen. My movie is a serious man.

[Danielle Henderson]

The rabbi is busy.

[Millie de Chairico]

He didn't look busy.

[Danielle Henderson]

He's thinking.

[Millie de Chairico]

And this.

[Danielle Henderson]

We've.

[Millie de Chairico]

We've talked. We've discussed the Coen brothers before on this podcast. Go back and listen to old episodes if you're not. If you want to know more about their style of directing and them personally. So I won't spend too much time on that this time. But this is an interesting movie to me. Even just within their oeuvre, like, it's an interesting one of their more interesting movies to me. They always do these kind of sprawling stories. They always look at these slices of life that are interesting. They always are entertaining. But this one in particular, I think leaves a lot more to the imagination than some of their other films. And it's a little bit more expansive in some ways. So I'll give you a one sentence synopsis. You're not imagining things. Your family might be generationally cursed.

[Danielle Henderson]

Perfect.

[Millie de Chairico]

So first and foremost, we have to talk about who is in this movie. And the star of the movie is Michael Stuhlbarg, who is such a phenomenal actor, such a little cutie face.

[Danielle Henderson]

Love him.

[Millie de Chairico]

So amazing. And he's, you know, star of stage and screen. He's. He's trained at Juilliard. He actually studied mime with Marcel Marceau, which I did not real. Yeah. Which I did not realize until I was doing research for this episode. Yeah. And a lot of people. He came to prominence pop culturally when he starred, when he was in the movie Call Me by youy Name as the main character's father and has this epic speech at the end that kind of made for me the whole movie.

[Danielle Henderson]

Me too. Me too. Honestly can't remember a lot about that movie now. Except for that dad.

[Millie de Chairico]

Completely. Completely. So it's one of those things where I feel like he's one of those actors where you're always so happy to see him, like kind of get his flowers because he's been doing this for a long time and has been this dynamic for a very long time. He also is in. He stars in Dopesick, that Hulu movie about the family that created the opioid crisis, the drug company that created the opioid crisis. And he's just so chillingly good in that. Like, again, he has a range that is unreal. And what I love about him in this film is that you get to see that range. But he takes it up a notch because there's a lot of frenzy and kind of anxiety in this film. And he keeps this kind of high level anxiety going without falling apart for most of the film, which is fascinating to me. So I love it. I just love that he is the star of this film. He centers a lot of the emotion for me. So three things happen kind of right at the beginning of the film that help set the tone for the film. There's a short opener about this, like, 19th century couple that may or may not have been visited by a dybbuk. And the wife drives an ice pick into what she is perceived to be the dybbuk's chest. And so now if you're not familiar with, with, with Jewish lore and history, a dybbuk is an evil spirit that kind of takes control of somebody's body and often leaves by either completing a task or a goal or they are exercised in some way. But it's basically like, you know, the person is standing in front of you is not the person you've always known. Like they have been possessed in some way. So that happens right off the bat. Then there's Danny Gopnik, who's the child of our star. And he gets his radio taken away during Hebrew class after he tucks. He tucks a twenty dollar bill in there that's owed to a bully who he bought some marijuana from and then gets it taken away. And then we also have again our star, Professor Gopnik, Professor Larry Gopnik, who gets a bribe from a student for a better midterm grade after he returns from this routine doctor's appointment. So these are all very innocuous Things. And in true Coen brothers style, you think, how are we. What kind of movie are we going to see based on this, on these openers, that there is this connection. And it's never even explicitly said that that 19th century couple is part of the Gopnik family. But as things unfold, you realize it probably is. Because in that short opener, the wife tells her husband, we've been cursed like you have cursed us. So the. The bulk of the movie takes place in 1967, Minnesota. Larry Gopnik is a math professor. He gets all these messages when he gets to his office. One is from Columbia Records, one is from Sy Abelman, and one is from his doctor who's like, we need to talk about the results of the routine exam I just gave you. So the Gopnik family to me is very interesting. You've got Larry, who again, is this kind of dad, going about his business, doing everything he thinks he's supposed to do as a man in this era, taking care of his family, not really close with his wife, but is like, eh, what are you gonna do? We're married. And just doesn't really seem to have any desires outside of the family unit and the life that he's created, you know, he's very dutiful and very regimented. You have his brother Arthur, who lives with them. Arthur's kind of always draining this sebaceous cyst from his neck. And it's just. He's real strange. He's really strange. He sleeps on the couch. At one point, Larry talks about how, you know, he knows his brother's really smart, but he thinks his social inability to connect keeps him from having a full life. And he's constantly working and writing little things down in this book that he calls the Mentaculous, which we'll get into later. Arthur is always around, always in the bathroom, kind of a pain in everyone's ass just by existing and doesn't really bring a lot to the table. You have his daughter Sarah, who's always washing or trying to wash her hair and just like, can't stand her little brother. Her little brother is Danny, who is again doing Hebrew lessons. He's about to have his bar mitzvah and he's a total stoner. And then Larry's wife Judith. And Judith comes out the gate in the movie wanting a divorce. So all these seemingly little things happen that start to build the frenzy of the story. So Larry has this neighbor who's constantly mowing part of his lawn like he's traversing the boundary the lawn again. The student leaves behind this bribe, this envelope full of money to bribe him for a passing grade. We learn that Larry's up for tenure, but he's also been told that someone has been sending anonymous letters telling the tenure committee to deny him for, like, his moral turpitude. And then Danny again, Like, he is constantly running away from this bully and constantly stoned. He signed up for Columbia House Records without telling his family. So now his dad owes a ton of money for shit that he, like, hasn't returned.

[Danielle Henderson]

God, I've been a part of that.

[Millie de Chairico]

Grift, that grift that kept us all going for so long.

[Danielle Henderson]

You mailed in two pennies, and all of a sudden you owe them $5,000.

[Millie de Chairico]

And you're like, I'm 11. What are you talking about? How is it legal for you to let me get into debt? I'm 11 years old.

[Danielle Henderson]

I was just reading Parade magazine. And now the family is destitute.

[Millie de Chairico]

They're mad at me, and I am grounded for life because I wanted to get the new Simply Red cassette or the Crowded House cassette, which I still have. All my Crowded House is on cassette from fucking Columbia House.

[Danielle Henderson]

Oh, God.

[Millie de Chairico]

So. And Larry is also constantly climbing on the roof of their house to fix this, like, aerial antenna. So he's got, again, like, these obligations. These things are happening to everyone around him. And then when Judith asks him for a divorce, she basically kicks him out to a cot on the living room and then tells him he has to move into a hotel. She and her new partner, Sy Abelman, sit him down and say, like, you know, it's for the best if you move into a hotel with your brother, which he eventually does. But Judith wants a get, which is basically a mutual divorce so that she and Sai can get remarried in the Jewish faith. And there's something about. There are ways that I think I could accidentally ruin the movie, which I don't want to do. But I do want to talk a lot about the symbolism in this movie. So we have. Because there's a lot. There's a lot present. And I think the movie is kind of fueled by symbolism. It's not a difficult story to get into, but in true Coen Brothers style, you have to pay attention to everything that's happening because it's very well layered. And each layer will explain the one before and after. But the symbolism in this movie is interesting to me. So you have something as simple as the Gopnik's neighbors. They are this, you know, traditionally white, seemingly perfect father, son duo. You know, they're constantly playing catch and going on hunting trips, but they're also constantly impinging on the Gopnik space and have this air of spooky racism to them. I guess you could say that Larry is very aware of, Very aware of. And it affects how he lives in his own home. He's uncomfortable in his own home, in his neighborhood, not just because of what's happening in his house with his wife, but the world outside is also kind of forcing him into this place where he doesn't fit in. So when he goes on the roof and he's constantly trying to fix this antenna, he's trying to fix the signal and kind of get his house right. To me, it's very symbolic that he's on this roof and not able. He's as high as he can go and he can't get it right, essentially. It's very interesting to me. Then we look at something like Arthur's book, this Mantaculus, which looks like the craziest of ramblings and symbology, but actually ends up leading to a discovery that Arthur has been gambling. Like, he's kind of a pro gambler or at least using this metaculus to which again, in any stretch of the imagination, any stranger looking at this book now would think, oh, we found the book from Seven of the serial killer and Seven. Like, this part of has to be part of his group of texts. But he's using this to gamble and earn money, but he doesn't. He's not able to move on. So Arthur is like this really stuck character because he's stuck medically. He's got this machine that he has to constantly carry around and, like, drain things out of his body, but he's stuck in that. He can't move forward. He's not dating. He's not having a full life. He's not married. He's not social. Like, he can't do anything, but he has this super brain that he's putting to use in the most basic way. And I don't know, he's an interesting guy who eventually gets arrested. And I'm not going to say how, why, what that looks like, but a true Coen Brothers style, it comes out of the blue. And what he gets arrested for helps you realize, oh, this could be part of this underlying damage that he's not addressing because men will do anything except go to therapy, including writing in a notebook full of crazy rambling and symbols.

[Danielle Henderson]

No white space left, no white space.

[Millie de Chairico]

Filled to the margins. And then you also have Cy Abelman who's kind of this. So Arthur is played by Richard Kind, which I love. And Cy Abelman is played by Fred Melamed, who you would know by sight, even if you don't know his name. He's an incredible actor. And. And Psy is a really interesting. Because he's not in the film. Like, he's not physically in the film, like, in frame for most of it, but he's a constant, looming presence for most of the action in Larry's life. And Sy acts like this generous friend, this good guy, but he's also literally ripping Larry's family apart. So he's kind of this innocuous presence. Like, I'm just here to make. Make sure things go smoothly. Like, you know, your wife and I didn't plan on falling in love with each other. I'm a widow. She's in an unhappy marriage. It just happens. But he's actually part of the foundation of what is all the bad things that are happening to Larry. So the. The symbology of him being there is interesting as a character. And he's also the only character in the film who is ever referred to as a serious man when his actions show anything other than that. Like, he is not seriously trying to get this guy to understand and believe. Like, he's not trying to get Larry to think he's a good guy. Because he's a good guy. It's because he wants something from him. He's, like, very devious and underhanded, but he's the only one referred to as serious in the film. So it's just, again, very interesting that, you know, the wave of the film, as it happens, is Larry is just meeting this constant denigration, and he tries at certain points to talk to his rabbi. And this is where, again, I have to give some credit because I am not a religious person. But I do know that religious people often see their figureheads as a therapeutic outlet. So he's trying to see his rabbi. He's trying to. He's seeing a divorce attorney. He's doing so much. He's constantly financially strapped, but he's making the effort to see these rabbis. And the rabbis are fucking hilarious. One is so young, it could be like his son, essentially, and has no advice to give him. The other one tells this intense story that has nothing to do with what's happening and has no end. And then the other rabbi that he tries to see is like 900 years old and is basically like, no, I ain't doing that. Like, I don't do that anymore. So I give him credit for trying to get some kind of therapeutic help, but they all fail. And he doesn't actually ever go and get professional therapeutic help, nor could he afford to, because he's paying for everything in his life that is, he's just constantly financially behind the wheel, so he can't help himself. And at one point he says frantically, you know, everything that I thought was one way turns out to be another. Which is actually something that your main character says in your film at some point too.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah.

[Millie de Chairico]

So it's this real. Again, this heavy symbology or this heavy metaphorical leaning that he did everything he was supposed to do to have a normal, happy life. And absolutely in no way is his life normal or happy. And he does not know what to do about it. And there is just so much that happens in this film. There's car accidents, the persistent hounding of the Columbia Record Club, visiting the rabbis, people getting arrested, the mounting expenses. There's nightmares. And the ending of the film, which I will not give away. But the ending of the film is so interesting to me because again, in that it's kind of a departure for the Coen brothers in that they've left it so open ended. And it's shocking when you see it. You know, again, you're watching the life of this math professor and then you kind of get to the end and you're like, wait, wait, wait. To me, the ending of the film suggests that the Gopnik family line is about to end forever. So it's been set up in a way that it connects to the beginning without being a direct line. Like, there's no direct discussion of the family curse. There's no direct discussion of, you know, the couple that we saw in the beginning of the film. But if the curse on this family has been persistent throughout the generations, there is a huge indication that it's going to end, but not in the way that you think. So I love it. I love this movie. I think that it is a really interesting study of dudes from this era, particularly because they're focusing on a Jewish man, which comes with its own set of cultural obligations. And, you know, I just. I just love. I just love this as a kind of slice of life examination of men who will do anything except go to therapy, include paying. Paying for the funerals of people that have wronged them. Like, it is just nonstop. I love that. Adam. There's so many good cameos in this movie. Adam Arkin makes a. An appearance. I love him. Every time he's on screen. It Makes me so happy.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah, me too.

[Millie de Chairico]

He's such a little weirdo. I love him. He's a great director. But he's also just, like, such. Such a good actor. And it's just kind of this. I don't know, It's a real. The movie is a real connection to faith and principle and family and value, but absolutely none of those pieces are working together for Larry. So. I love this movie. I think it's visually incredibly, incredibly beautiful. And I just. I love it. It's the first thing that I thought of when I thought men will do anything except go to therapy.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah, it's a good one. It's. You know, I always. You're right. It was kind of like the Coen brothers more introspective film that they had done in a while. And I remember people being kind of. I mean, sometimes a bit confused by it, about what. What they're. What it was saying. But I thought it was kind of brilliant in that way because it is. It's kind of like an existential study. But it's also funny because it's the Coen Brothers. Like, even though it was sort of one of their more kind of like murkier, mysterious movies, I feel like the characters are the most Coheny. Cohen brothersy. Do you know what I mean?

[Millie de Chairico]

Yes.

[Danielle Henderson]

Like, all of the people, like the secretaries and the, like, people. The offices. Like, I was like. Even though it's, you know, it's got a lot to say, you still have an old woman in a moomoo and, like, some, you know, some orthopedic shoes shuffling around an office. Like, that's still happening. So. But I. But I love this movie, too. I haven't seen it. I think I hadn't seen it since it came out. I think I saw it twice when it came out. But, yeah, such. Such good acting. I love. Who is it? Amy Landecker. Is that her name? She plays the. Like, the neighbor who's kind of this, like, bohemian, but, like, real low key.

[Millie de Chairico]

She's. She's. When we meet her, Larry's on the roof trying to fix the antenna, and he sees her sunbathing naked in her backyard. And it's kind of like, oh, what's happening here? And then when they. By the time they have an actual conversation and she reveals herself to be this, you know, this housewife whose husband travels and she smokes pot all day and just kind of hangs out. But she's so intense in this role. She just stares at him constantly and kind of forces him to talk, which is not a position he's in in most of his life, except when he's in the classroom, when he's kind of in command of students. But she's hilariously spooky and wonderful in this role.

[Danielle Henderson]

That's great. Well, good choice this week. Perfect for the theme.

[Millie de Chairico]

I also love the bar mitzvah scene, too, because Dany is stoned out of his fucking mind. It's a very Coen brother scene. It's very, very good. But, yeah, I'm glad that we brought this one to the pod. Even though it's a newer movie. It was released in 2009. Newer for us because it was released in this century also.

[Danielle Henderson]

I don't know if anybody has. Has made the decision to put Michael Stuhlbarg and Joaquin Phoenix in a movie together playing brothers. But if they don't do that now, they should do it immediately. Moving on, I suppose, with my movie for the week. You ready for this?

[Millie de Chairico]

Ready.

[Danielle Henderson]

Ready for some more men who would rather present themselves a challenge than go to therapy. My movie for the theme Men Will Do Anything Except Go to therapy is from 1968. It was written by Eleanor Perry, based on a story of the same name by John Cheever, directed by Frank Perry, of course, and it's called the Swimmer. Well, I've gotta be on my way. I'm swimming home. You're swimming home. I figured out there's a river of pools all the way to my house. Crazy idea.

[Millie de Chairico]

I think it's a brilliant idea.

[Danielle Henderson]

Okay. Have you read a lot of John Shiver in your life?

[Millie de Chairico]

No. No.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah. I was kind of obsessed with him for, like, six months back in the day. I was like. I don't know. I. I guess I was sort of in. In a mode where I was like, I really want to read bisexual American male writers who. Right. You know, seethings, takedowns of the American middle class. I was just like, let's go. But anyway, this is. So the Swimmer is based off of a John Cheever story that he wrote for the New Yorker. And we've talked about Frank and Eleanor Perry before when we did the movie David and Lisa. So they were a husband and wife team. You know, Eleanor pretty much wrote the films and Frank directed them. And honestly, like, they're a great pair. They're very fascinating. Frank Perry movies are fantastic. Like, didn't direct, like, a shit ton of films, but the ones that he directed are all pretty much like kind of offbeat bangers, I would say. But this movie, to me, is all about Burt Lancaster. And I Don't know if we've ever really talked about Burt Lancaster before on the pod. So, of course, Burt Lancaster is one of the most famous actors probably of all time, but certainly in classic Hollywood. He was 55 when this movie came out. Which is incredible when you think about the fact that he spends the entire movie in a bathing suit. And, like, a real skimpy one at that, really. I mean, they're not like. It's not, like, European style, but it's pretty close. Shows a lot of leg. He actually shows his ass in this movie at one point. Literally, I was like, God, good for him. But the thing about. He was known for his athleticism. Like, he was actually an acrobat in the circus at one point in his career. So he was very fit. And he could be 55, running around in a bathing suit, like, jumping over fences and stuff. But his physicality is a big part of this. I mean, you basically can't help but look at his body the entire movie. And I think. And I think that, like, you know, obviously, like, his body was a huge part of his career. But the one thing I will say about Burt Lancaster is that he's not just looks okay. He's very. He's a very interesting person and kind of great, to be honest. He. I have to read the second sentence of his Wikipedia, because this really got me. And once I read it, you'll understand why the second sentence of his Wikipedia says, initially known for playing tough guys with a tender heart. And I was like, yeah, that's me. I'm also a tough guy with a tender heart, I suppose. But that's kind of like what he was definitely like in his early career. Like, he was in a lot of noir. He was strongly associated with noir films. He sort of played, you know, like the typical kind of noir man, which obviously is an archetype, a certain type of masculinity. Right. But I think one of his most famous movies was Sweet Smell of Success, where he played an asshole. Like a huge asshole. And I think a lot of people kind of, you know, he's really known for that film in a lot of ways. But then he was also in a lot of different other types of films in that era, and especially as his career went on. Like, I mean, he was in From Here to Eternity, which is, you know, a romance, and he played that, you know, roll really well. And he. My favorite. I think one of my favorite Burt Lancaster movies was this movie called Comeback, Little Sheba from 1952. And it was actually based off of A play. I think it was like a William Inge play. He's so heartbreaking in that film. He plays basically like a married guy who's married, former alcoholic, trying to get through his alcoholism. So it's like. I don't know. He was. Yes, he had the chest of a Greek God, but he also was an incredible actor and showed a lot of emotional range, which I think is great. He was a tough guy with a tender heart at the end of the day. But I think my favorite thing about him is that he was famously very, very progressive. He protested against the blacklist during the HUAC era. He was actually on Nixon's enemies list for a while. He fought for the rights of minorities. I mean, he was really big in the civil rights era. He was anti war. He was anti death penalty. I mean, very early supporter of. Of those who were dying in the AIDS crisis. So, I mean, he was kind of an amazing dude in the. In that way and definitely was very politically active and donated a lot of his time and his money and his energy towards progressive causes, which is cool.

[Millie de Chairico]

I also used to get him confused with Charlton Heston, who's the exact opposite of that. So I had to look it up because I'm like, is he like that one or that? And I'm glad Burt Lancaster is the one I thought he was and not Charlton Heston, who is the polar fucking opposite of everything Millie just said. Yeah.

[Danielle Henderson]

You couldn't get two more different guys?

[Millie de Chairico]

Similar era of acting. Very different dudes.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yes, yes. Which I. I mean, that is. That's fascinating, though. That is a fat, like, a fascinating range of people to exist in the same system. But, yes, definitely, Definitely not from My Cold Dead hand, you know, like, at all.

[Millie de Chairico]

And when you pick this movie, at first I'm like, real. That guy. And I was wrong. Wrong.

[Danielle Henderson]

I'm like, bill, cracks me the fuck up.

[Millie de Chairico]

She's picking her from my cold dead hands movie. All right, let's talk about it. No, no, ma'am.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah, so this is the interesting thing about the Swimmer. I mean, so this movie obviously takes place and was written and directed in the late 60s era. So, I mean, I kind of joked about Mad Men earlier, but I feel like there's a lot of, like, through lines between something like Mad Men and something like the Swimmer. Right? Because you've got this, like, late 60s sort of counterculture thing happening, which there are definitely, like, touches of that in the film, which kind of drive me a little nuts, I gotta be honest. Like, here's, like. There's, like, Sequences where, you know, Ned Merrill and his babysitter are like traipsing through a field of marigolds. And the fucking soft camera work and the prism, like they're being shot through a prism. You know, it's very, very hippie, hippie dippy shit, right? Which kind of. It's a little, it's a little annoying. Especially considering like the statement that this movie ultimately is making. But yeah, some like really corny hippie stylistic choices. But, but I think ultimately, like we're in an era where we're processing that. Yeah, it is a form of masculinity. We're trying to figure out like, what the hell is going on with American life, the American dream, you know, manhood. It's a very classist, you know, conversation happening in terms of like, you know, you've got these like, you know, people who are living in these like suburban areas and they're kind of completely tuned out to what the realities of the world is because they're just rich and they have cocktails and they, you know, sit by their pools and, you know, and is that the right thing? Right. Especially when you've got like political unrest and war and things like that. Social, social change. Right. And obviously that's the John Cheever part coming in. But also with Frank Perry, I mean, Frank Perry's movies were a lot about that kind of stuff too. And Eleanor Perry screenplays were a lot about that. So it's just kind of a good kind of combo. But you know, I think a lot of people thought this movie was really weird when it came out. There are still people who think it's weird. And so it kind of developed a cult following. And when it was released on Blu Ray, it was released, I believe by Grindhouse Releasing, which you know, is kind of a cult. Well, they are. It's not kind of. They're a cult movie DVD label. So I think it was sort of firmly adopted by the cult community when that happened. But I don't know about a one sentence synopsis really. Cause I just forgot to think of one. But the beats of the movie, it's very simple. So Burt Lancaster plays this middle aged man named Ned Merrill and he's an affluent white guy living in the burbs. I think it's around in Connecticut actually. I feel like they shot, I think they shot the Swimmer in Frank Perry's hometown in Connecticut. So it's very much of, you know, think about the ice storm, right? That kind of vibe of like these like sprawling like 60s homes with these people who are. You know, it's cocktail culture. It's like, you know, drinks by the pool and everyone's just like, no responsibilities. Everybody cares about their lawns and they're riding lawnmowers and their pools and their, and their friends, right? And it's cocktail parties and all that shit, right? So the beginning of the movie, it's basically Ned Merrill slash Burt Lancaster. And he's just like diving into a pool. And he's just like this very attractive middle aged man, tan, and he's just sort of like, yeah, I love swimming. And then he gets this idea when he is talking to a set of his neighbors, a man and a woman, where he's like, actually, I could probably go from house to house, pool to pool, across the entire county and make it back to my house just by jumping in people's pools, right? And they're kind of like, why would you do that? Just come to the cocktail party that our neighbors are having, like, just put your shirt on and let's just go party. Like, why would you want to go from pool to pool? And he's just like, it's a challenge. He wants to challenge himself.

[Millie de Chairico]

Yeah, it's an adventure.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah, it's an adventure. And very subtly, is that a code for this guy ain't trying to do what other people want him to do, right? He's like, I don't know, he's his own man and he wants to go on his own little adventure just jumping in people's pools, right? So they're like, okay, we'll have fun then. So he's, you know, continues to the next house and he goes from house to house. And each along the way he's interacting with a variety of his neighbors who again, remember the film, the Ice Storm? The Ang Lee movie, Ice Storm. Think about people like that, just very concerned with like frivolous bullshit things. They only care about their kind of social status. And he's just sort of interacting with them and he's very pleasant to them, right? Like he kikis and shoots the shit with everybody and he's like slapping the ladies on the ass. And everyone's like, nettie, where you been, baby? You know, they have a rapport, right? But as his journey continues, you start as a viewer, you start going, okay, what's up with this? Because some people are starting to be like, how's the family? And he's like, couldn't be better. And then they're kind of raising their eyebrows like, what are you talking about? Right? So as the movie progresses, there's this question of what's happening with him. Is he lying about himself? Is he delusional? Are they delusional? Like, what's happening? Right? So from pool to pool to pool, everyone's just sort of like. You're like, what's up with Ned? Right? At the same time, he starts meeting, you know, certain types of people. So he, like. At one pool, he runs into, like, his old family babysitter. And it's this, like, kind of gidgety, beautiful, young blonde. She's played by Janet Languard, and her name is, you know, Julie. And she's just like this bubbly, effervescent, like, girl in her young twenties just starting out life. She reveals to Ned that she had this, like, kind of stalkery, kind of crazy crush on him where she used to go up to their room and put on his shirts and when he. She was babysitting for his kids. And he was like, oh, really? Why didn't you ever tell me this?

[Millie de Chairico]

At one point, she's like, yeah, I told you I was a spooky little kid.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah, yeah, I know. I was like. I was going, you know what? I don't knock this, like, not saying I put on anybody's shirt, but I do like this. The smell of men sometimes and, you know, the colognes and things that they wear. I'm not stealing their clothes, but I'm just saying. But she kind of reveals this, you know, this kind of crush to him. And then he suddenly is like, I think, in his. I don't know, in his enthusiasm for his new task. And he's kind of like, I'm going on an adventure. Why don't you come with me? You know, let's do this together. So she starts traveling around with him. And then, you know, at some point, she kind of reveals like, hey, like, I live, you know, I might be moving to the city. And every time I'm in the city, I get, like, hit on by weird guys. And, you know, I'm just like, the reality of her actual life becomes full scope to him. And he realizes that life, her life is not. She's not just a fantasy for him, that she's like a woman in the world that has to deal with, like, other men, right? And he wants to protect her, but she's just like, what? Like, it gets really awkward, and she ends up being like, bad idea. Shouldn't have. Shouldn't have come. But it kind of, again, contributes to this sort of. I don't know, this. This. This sort of feeling within Ned that He's definitely questioning life and that there's something happening with him mentally that you don't know yet as a viewer. Right.

[Millie de Chairico]

It's interesting to kind of try to figure it out as the movie goes along, too, because that's what I found my. I had never seen this before, but that's what I found myself doing.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah.

[Millie de Chairico]

As I was watching, I'm like, what exactly is going on with him? And trying to guess and figure it out.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah.

[Millie de Chairico]

Then I'm like, is this like a. Like a murder sit? Like, did he kill his family? And they're all just kind of trying to be nice about it in that weird 60s way. Like, what exactly is going. Did he have, like a mental break? It was interesting to try to figure it out.

[Danielle Henderson]

Right. And then. But you know, the thing that's. You're absolutely right. And the thing that becomes even more interesting is that you're not. It's kind of an unreliable narrator scenario too, because his neighbors suck. I mean, his neighbors are. A lot of them are very concerned with status and money to the point where, you know, because they're like, oh, God, are you going to, like, let that motherfucker around your pool? And, you know, maybe it's. Maybe they're the unreliable narrator. Maybe they're. They think this guy is trash when he probably isn't. So it's very hard to tell what's happening. Right. But he has these interactions with different people. Like, you know, very early on you've got the actress Kim Hunter, and as one of the wives, actually, Joan Rivers is in this film. It was her acting debut. There's a very interesting interaction that happens with her and him at one point at a party, he, like I said, interacts with the babysitter. He. He at one point interacts with this, like, little boy who is essentially left on his own.

[Millie de Chairico]

That freaked me out, that part, because he's like, yeah, my mom's away for vacation. Like, there's a maid around. But I'm mostly just like hanging around this empty ass pool, hopping on the diving board.

[Danielle Henderson]

Like, yeah. Like, this little kid is probably like 11, 12, and it's like his parents are divorced and they both have fucked off and he's just left in an empty pool with a maid. You're just like, wow, okay.

[Millie de Chairico]

And the symbolism. Oh, my God.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, so there's that. There's like a moment between Ned and that little boy. There's a moment where he meets up with these two nudists, which is. So that's. You get an ass shot of Burt Lancaster. I hope that's not a spoiler alert. But, I mean, I was like, good for him. My gosh. One of the most interesting interactions that I think is great in this movie is a very brief part where Ned interacts with this black chauffeur like a driver. And honestly, in that very small amount of time that they spent together, it says a lot about race and class in this neighborhood. Yeah, right. Which I think is interesting. They did not have to include that in this film. But the fact that they did, I think was great. I appreciated that. Cause it kind of reminds you about, like, what his life is or was. Right? That he was a part of this, like, system of wealth and whiteness and bullshit that either he is no longer in or has been cast out of or something. You don't know what is going on, or maybe he's rejecting it. You don't know. And it's. Again, it sort of slowly is revealed throughout the film. But, I mean, I don't want to give it away because it's complicated. And the journey there is so interesting because again, you don't know whether or not it's like his denial or his rejection, either personal rejection or rejection from his community. You don't know. Right. But I think that generally this movie is. I think it's a cult movie because it is very. It's not putting everything on the table all at once in that way. Again, there are some kind of, like late 60s LSD influence, stylistic film choices that I'm like, okay, whatever. I actually heard that Sidney Pollock was brought in at one point to do some reshoots of things. So I don't know if he was responsible for any of that. I doubt it. But we'll see. I mean, I. Honestly, this movie is so textured and interesting. I mean, I think there are people who are a little mystified by it. And that's okay to me. Like, I'm like, okay, well, it's not for everybody, but I think that the ending is really effective. I'll just say I think it is, like, a very interesting concept for a story generally. I mean, it's like, you know, I don't. It's a very unique idea. And being able to access all of these topics through this journey, essentially about pools, is really cool to me. And I've been honestly. But wanted to do this movie for a very long time. And when you were like, let's do this theme, I was like, yup, this is the one.

[Millie de Chairico]

This man is portaging. He's like, I'm gonna swim in a pool and then walk through the woods for who knows how long. I'm gonna pretend to be a horse. I'm gonna pretend to race a horse. Like, he is just having a day full of denial and strangeness.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there I was, like, I was concerned that he was barefoot the entire time. I was like, I don't know. What if you meet a mountain lion? What are you doing? Like, there's a lot. A lot of factors. I'm like, is there no chafing going on, sir? Like, I guess not.

[Millie de Chairico]

There's branches. Not like he's walking on mowed grass the whole time. Like, he's walking through the wood. Yeah.

[Danielle Henderson]

I mean, we know another episode should be like, I guess maybe another topic for another episode should be men will do anything except wear sunscreen. Because he has this. I was, like, concerned for his skin. I was like, you've got that old fisherman shoes of the fisherman, Anthony Quinn skin. Like, I don't. I don't got, like, Even Charlton Heston had that skin. That crispy fried chicken at the gas station skin.

[Millie de Chairico]

And there's also. There are really. I really did love this movie. I loved this movie. And there's something that's so interesting to me, too, about how there are many moments where you're not sure if he's complicit in being a dick or not. Like, is he actually an asshole? Or is he a victim of circumstance? Or, like, what is it? Because at one point he goes to someone's house, and she's like, well, what makes you think you. And he's like, well, I'm Ned Merrill. She's like, what? Like, it's that weird Don Drapery kind of thing we were talking about. But then there's also a scene later on with a woman. He goes to her house, and they've had. They've known each other. You know, he knows most people in this neighborhood anyway, but they've known each other. And he kind of hops in the pool and tries to pull her in with him. And she has to fight him off in her own house. And is just really revealing a lot about their relationship in a way that he was really an aggressive dickhead to her, that he's. What's fascinating about his acting in this movie, too, is that you can't tell if he doesn't remember being that way or if he's just obtuse about it.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah. So that. I'm glad you brought that part up. Cause I actually really Wanted to talk about. That part of the movie is that scene with the actress's name, Janice Rule. And if you don't know Janice Rule, she was in a lot of films over the years. But to me, she's in one of my favorite films of all time, Three Women, which we've talked about on the podcast. Very early days, I think she played the woman Willy, who was in the pool making the drawings. She didn't have a speaking part, really, but that's Janice Rule, weirdly enough. Ironically enough, Janice Rule. At some point when she was acting in the 1960s, probably around this time of this movie, she became a therapist. She went to. Really? Yeah, she went back to school and basically graduated, and she was a. She was acting and then being a therapist.

[Millie de Chairico]

That's incredibly cool.

[Danielle Henderson]

Full circle for our theme this week.

[Millie de Chairico]

But also, her name is Janice Rule. So to me, she's the original Ja.

[Danielle Henderson]

Rule, mother of Ja Rule.

[Millie de Chairico]

Ja Rule's mom was in Three Women. And.

[Danielle Henderson]

But that. That whole scene where he, you know, basically thinks that, you know, let the good times roll with this woman that he used to have an affair with, and she is very upset with him. She's just like, get away from me. You know what I mean?

[Millie de Chairico]

She's like, do you remember what you said to me? Like, fuck you, dude.

[Danielle Henderson]

Well, and then in her way of saying, like, I mean, honestly, in this way of advocating for herself as a woman who isn't participating in this, I'll say fandango again. This, like, Connecticut WASP rich person fandango of like. She's like, I'm bold enough to be my own woman, and I don't listen to what other people tell me to do. And, you know, this is who I am. And yet you are. You access me whenever you want to escape your perfect world and fuck that shit.

[Millie de Chairico]

Yeah. She is not part of the charade at all.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yes. And there's something amazing about that, to me. I mean, sure. With you, too. I mean, it's like, it's. It's such a. Again, the messaging is kind of tucked into these interactions, and it's not, like, super obvious, but I'm like, yo, she said a lot. She's saying a lot.

[Millie de Chairico]

You know, and it's also in stark contrast to this other scene because he keeps trying to get women to go with him on this adventure.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yes.

[Millie de Chairico]

So it's in really stark contrast to this other scene with Julie Hooper, who was like, I was infatuated with you. To then reach almost the end of the film and find this woman who's like, you're disgusting to me. Like, you were an absolute monster.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yeah. Yeah. And again, I think that's another component to this, this film, this character study of Ned Merrill is where he's just sort of like, who is he? Like, is he to be trusted? Is he somebody who is, like, say, you know, giving the middle finger to, like, middle class life and he's going to be his own man on his own adventure? Or is it more complicated than that? Is he actually a bad guy? Did he. Is he delusional? Is he, you know, like, what. What is it? You know, metaphor for the American dream, perhaps, too? A little bit. So it's like, I don't know. It's. It's very interesting. I've always loved this movie because of that. And, you know, again, like, some people are a little confused by it maybe, or maybe just don't have the patience for it because it's kind of a slow roll. But, I don't know. I. To me, it's a perfect movie. Whenever I think about men who probably negotiate but will swim, swim home instead.

[Millie de Chairico]

I will swim every pool Instead of going to therapy. Every pool in the county. Here I go.

[Danielle Henderson]

Oh, boy. Oh, boy.

[Millie de Chairico]

Well, yeah, this is great. That was. That was. This is a great week of double feech.

[Danielle Henderson]

I agree next week is going to be absolutely insane. But in the meantime, if you want to email us, our email address is. I saw what you did. Podmail.com and of course, we love short questions for bonus episodes. And we also have a P.O. box if you want to send, you know, any kind of mail stuffs.

[Millie de Chairico]

You still have to send me that. That fuck you coffee thing that somebody drew.

[Danielle Henderson]

Oh, I have a lot to send you. Somebody's book report. Remember somebody wrote us and sent us their book report from, like, seventh grade?

[Millie de Chairico]

I want so much of it. But you can find the address for our PO Box and a bunch of other stuff about us on our link tree, which you can find on all of our social media. We are sawpod on Instagram, bluesky and Twitter. And you can also send us a voicemail to play on the show. Now all you have to do is record a voice memo on your phone and email it to I sawwhatyou did. Podmail.com please make it 60 seconds or less and record it in a quiet space.

[Danielle Henderson]

Yep. And we have merch. Just go to exactlyrightstore.com and we have bonus episodes.

[Millie de Chairico]

They drop on the main feed on the third Thursday of every month.

[Danielle Henderson]

All right, Danielle, I feel like you.

[Millie de Chairico]

Should tell them what the movies are for next week.

[Danielle Henderson]

I feel like you should.

[Millie de Chairico]

Okay. Our movies for next week are morphin collar from 2002 and monster from 2003.

[Danielle Henderson]

Listen, Danielle, as always, a pleasure doing this podcast with you. I love our conversations, and I love that you're my friend.

[Millie de Chairico]

Oh, I love that I'm you're. I love that I'm your friend and that you're my friend, too. So cute. The best.

[Danielle Henderson]

Goodbye, everybody.

[Millie de Chairico]

Bye. This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Casey O'Brien. Episode mixing and theme music by Tom Breifogel. Artwork by Garrett Ross. Our executive producers are Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgariff, and Danielle Kramer. You can follow us on Instagram and Twitter. Saw Pod. And you can email us at. I saw what you did. Podmail.