KPop Demon Hunters (2025)! Plus, ‘What Went Wrong’ Hosts Chris Winterbauer and Lizzie Bassett!

Summary

Dear Movies, I Love You – Episode Summary

Episode: KPop Demon Hunters (2025)! Plus, ‘What Went Wrong’ Hosts Chris Winterbauer and Lizzie Bassett!
Date: September 9, 2025
Hosts: Millie de Chirico & Casey O’Brien
Guests: Chris Winterbauer & Lizzie Bassett ("What Went Wrong" Podcast), Sandra O’Brien (Casey’s mom)

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Overview:

This episode is a vibrant, deep-dive into Netflix’s animated smash KPop Demon Hunters—a film that fuses K-pop spectacle with supernatural action. Millie and Casey unpack the movie’s cultural resonance and the sometimes murky ethics of “fan service,” while also welcoming Chris and Lizzie from the “What Went Wrong” podcast for a wide-ranging conversation about catastrophic movie productions and the reality behind infamous Hollywood disasters. The episode opens with an on-air “podcast exorcism” courtesy of Casey’s Catholic mom, designed to keep the show Annabelle-free (inspired by stray comments about the infamous ‘Conjuring’ doll).

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Key Segments and Discussion Points

1. A Blessed Beginning: The Podcast Exorcism (02:07–17:44)

• Context: The hosts joke about drawing a supernatural curse by discussing Annabelle, the haunted doll, and bring on Casey’s Catholic mom, Sandra O’Brien, for a podcast blessing/exorcism.
• Sandra’s Spiritual Safety Measures:
  • Checklist of spiritual protections: Bible, crucifix, new Pope card, angel figurine, Mother Teresa action figure, sage, holy water, salt, and rice (09:12–10:44).
  • “I'm pulling out all the stops. I have them all here.” – Sandra O’Brien [09:28]
• Exorcism Procedure:
  • The hosts and Sandra repeat Latin phrases, “Ecce crucis... Signum fujiant... Phantasmata canta” (13:54–14:12); Sandra explains, “Let all specters flee.”
  • Famous movie line: "The power of Christ compels you!" (14:30)
  • Prayer against spirits: "Spirit, this is not your home." (15:18–15:26)
  • Custom St. Michael prayer, adding “Annabelle demon... And podcasts. Amen.” (16:07–16:47)
• Reassurances:
  • “You spread love, joy, humor, entertainment, education...It's not a podcast where an evil demon would feel very welcome.” — Sandra O’Brien [08:01]
• Memorable Moment:
  • Sandra’s proposed future podcast segment: “All men who insist on taking their shirts off in movies. That should not." — Sandra O’Brien [18:07]

2. Film Diary: Recent Watches (22:23–32:42)

• Millie’s List:
  • Fitzcarraldo (Herzog, 1982) & Burden of Dreams (Les Blank, 1982)—discussing synergy with their guest podcasters.
  • Night of the Juggler (1980): “This movie is an absolute fucking ride, dude. I loved every second.” — Millie [24:47]
  • Praise for Dan Hedaya’s unhinged performance, likened to grimy, guerrilla filmmaking of ‘70s NYC.
• Casey’s List:
  • Weapons (Peele-esque horror): “Got under my skin in a way that Jordan Peele's movies do.”
  • The Quick and the Dead (Sam Raimi, 1995): “Fun Western...zoom-ins on faces.”
  • Violent Saturday (1955): Noted for its half-melodrama, half-violent tone.
  • The Lawnmower Man: Tale of King vs. the studio, legal saga explained.
  • (31:53) “Stephen King successfully sued to have his name taken off the home video release.”

3. Main Discussion: KPop Demon Hunters (2025) (35:04–83:22)

The Movie’s Massive Appeal

• Viewership & Cultural Penetration:
  • All-ages hit: “My nephews watched it five times in a day... the idea that everybody loves it regardless of gender is so awesome to me.” — Millie [38:22]
  • Taps into childhood excitement: “If I saw this when I was a kid, it would have made me go insane, like, with excitement.” — Casey [35:47]
• Why Is It So Big?
  • Discussing Netflix’s shifting strategy—a move from Oscar-bait “prestige” to streaming-centric, accessible animation (41:07–42:37).
• K-Pop Context + Accessible Parody:
  • Movie fills pop culture gaps without needing in-depth K-pop familiarity; the hosts break down the K-pop “factory” and idol roles: leader, maknae (youngest), visual (the hot one), rap and vocal lines (51:12–52:14).
  • “K-Pop is a factory... Every K-pop group has roles.” — Millie [49:43]
  • Playful debate: Millie wants to be the rapper; Casey, “I want to be the little baby one.” [52:09–52:12]

Fan Culture, Capitalism, and ‘Fan Service’

• Fan Service Explained:
  • “Part of the training of K-pop is to give fan service... look at [fans] in the eye, tell them that they love them, do things on stage that suggest love and appreciation and maybe even like, sexual or romantic attraction. To me, that feels kind of underhanded and weird.” — Millie [61:08]
  • Parallels with Taylor Swift’s audience relationship and western pop machinery (66:55–67:42).
  • The tension with indie roots: “We were raised on American independent music... where [bands] don’t owe you anything.” — Millie [58:07]
• The Hyper-Capitalist Side of Fandom:
  • “They are... nickeling and diming you. These are huge companies, pumping out bands.” — Millie [64:04]
  • Segment on official fandom names (“Deadhead,” “Blink” for Blackpink, etc.) and the pressure to consume (61:31–64:36).

Work Ethic, Burnout, and Movie Logic

• No Rest for the Wicked:
  • Recurrent runner in the film about Huntrix never getting downtime, paralleling real idol grind: “The idea that Huntrix gets no time off seems accurate... they’re working so hard they're not eating.” — Millie [72:12]
  • Casey’s observation: “If someone did that to me, I would have, like, murdered them. Can you imagine such a thing?” [71:55]
• Plot and Unresolved Issues:
  • Noted darkness: “So many people are killed in this movie... They don't come back.” — Casey [77:09]
  • Unresolved subplots (Rumi’s demon parentage, Ginu’s redemption arc, Celine’s lack of apology) suggest sequels (76:29–79:00).

Animation, Visuals, and Characters

• Animation praised:
  • “Almost had a stop-motion quality... artistic and thoughtful.” — Casey [47:57]
  • Focusing on character design and K-pop archetypes, including thirst for leader Ginu (“He is so attractive for a cartoon character.” — Millie [53:09])
  • Favorite Hunt Tricks (girl group) members: Mira (the goth angsty one) and Zoe (the maknae) [54:54–55:59].

Cultural Moment & Representation

• Korean Wave:
  • Noting Asian pop culture’s global prevalence, from Parasite to BTS and Squid Game: “Asians are having a moment... I like to milk that.” — Millie [44:33]
  • The movie’s ability to transfer culturally-specific references without being exclusionary.

Millie’s “Prescription” for Casey’s K-pop Journey

• Concludes Casey is a “TXT guy” for sensitive, poetic pop; brief K-pop group recs (82:14–83:05).

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4. Special Segment: My Area of Expertise – Chris Winterbauer & Lizzie Bassett (83:22–117:00)

Podcast: "What Went Wrong" – dissecting troubled film productions and the improbable odds of finishing even a bad movie.

• Ethos: “We’re not here to shame any movies. We are here to celebrate the fact movies get made, period. Because it is so incredibly difficult to make a movie and so much can go wrong.” — Lizzie [84:07]
• Key Anecdotes/Rules from Their Show:
  • Never Film With 150 Untrained Lions or Tigers:
    • Roar (1981): “A 90-minute movie of people being mauled by lions...” — Lizzie [92:33]
    • Injury Tally: “No animals were harmed... 70 cast and crew were. However, that appears to be an understatement. It is likely closer to 100 cast and crew.” — Lizzie [93:21]
    • “If you’ve ever lifted a rock and seen a swarm of bugs under it, it looks like that... but with lions in a room.” — Chris [93:02]
    • Jan de Bont, future director (Speed, Twister), was “scalped by a lion” and needed 220 stitches.
  • Never Try to Change Your Whole Movie in the Edit:
    • Gigli (2003): Recap of epic behind-the-scenes retooling. The film’s original script a gritty mob drama; post-Bennifer romance, reshot into a rom-com (104:49–111:02).
    • “They had to retcon the whole movie... She’s still a lesbian in the movie, but somehow falls for Ben Affleck.” — Lizzie [109:34]
    • Industry advice: “It’s really hard to adjust tone.” — Casey [114:42]
  • General Wisdom
    • “Everything goes wrong. That's the real lesson. Everything goes wrong.” — Chris [117:07]
    • Respect the unexpected labor & risk, and don't glamorize unsafe film set behaviors (101:47).

5. Employee Picks: Movie Recommendations (119:16–123:50)

• Millie: Jem and the Holograms (2015, live-action by Jon M. Chu) — see K-pop parallels with group dynamics and secret identities.
• Casey: Picnic (1955) — his mom’s favorite (“steamy, sexy; Labor Day classic; William Holden looking ‘conservatively 52’ playing 25”) [122:42].

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• "We're not one of those evil film podcasts." — Millie [08:16]
• “If someone had done that to me, I would have literally, like, killed them... Can you imagine such a thing?” — Casey [71:55]
• “This is propaganda for big K-pop.” — Casey [56:17]
• “The love that their fans give them is what propels them and that's who they want to save at the end of the day.” — Millie [56:49]
• “I think our fandom should be called the Shitheads.” — Millie [62:33]
• “We were raised on American independent music... Indie rockers hate their fans.” — Millie [58:48]
• "Everything goes wrong. That’s the real lesson. Everything goes wrong." — Chris [117:07]
• “You did it. Like, holy shit. It’s like finishing a marathon. You got to the finish line.” — Chris [89:08]

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Timestamps: Essential Sections

• Exorcism/Blessing: 02:07–17:44
• Film Diary: 22:23–32:42
• KPop Demon Hunters Deep Dive: 35:04–83:22
• What Went Wrong Segment: 83:22–117:00
• Employee Picks: 119:16–123:50

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Episode Tone & Style

• Reliably irreverent, intimate, and candid: hosts use humor, self-deprecation, and genuine curiosity to dig below surface fandom.
• Confessional and playful banter, full of pop culture references, digressions, and deep film-nerd knowledge.
• Guests provide both industry war stories and film-bro commiseration, but with an empathetic, anti-snobbery spirit.

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Conclusion

This episode is a passionate, multi-faceted celebration of why and how we love movies—from K-pop spectacle to doomed Hollywood productions to fandoms, labor, and the weird line between art and commerce. It’s as much about the joy of immersion as it is a tribute to cinematic struggle, all wrapped in the conversational, ‘film crush’ energy that defines Dear Movies, I Love You.

Transcript

[Millie de Chirico]

This is exactly right.

[Sandra O'Brien]

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[Casey O'Brien]

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[Millie de Chirico]

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[Casey O'Brien]

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[Millie de Chirico]

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[Millie de Chirico]

Hey y'. All. So I just wanted to say that if you hear a dog collar jangly dangly all around in this episode, it's because my dog was going crazy while we were recording and I didn't have time to take her collar off, unfortunately. So try to mind that when you listen to the episode. And again, apologies. Hi Casey, how are you today?

[Casey O'Brien]

Oh, Millie, there's. I'm okay. There's a lot happening right now. Well, I, you know, let me just tell everybody the situation. You know, you and I have spoken previously about how we're worried Annabelle is because we've spoken about her on the podcast that she's going to come and curse our Podcast.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes, unfortunately.

[Casey O'Brien]

And, you know, the new conjuring movie just came out.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes.

[Casey O'Brien]

So, you know, we want to be preventative here and make sure that Annabelle doesn't seek revenge on us or hurt us in any way. So we. I thought it would be a good idea to bring on the most Catholic person I know to help bless the podcast, and that's my mom, Sandra o'. Brien. Hi, Mom.

[Sandra O'Brien]

Well, hi, Casey. Hi, Billy.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Happy to be here.

[Casey O'Brien]

Thank you.

[Millie de Chirico]

You, too.

[Casey O'Brien]

Thank. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to be here, Mom. I really appreciate it.

[Sandra O'Brien]

You are very welcome.

[Casey O'Brien]

My mom gave our house a blessing as well when we moved into our house, so she has some experience in warding off evil spirits. So. Yeah. Thank you so much, mom, for being here. You and I spoke before. You've prepared something to just sort of protect us and keep Annabelle away and to keep any sort of dark spirits away. Can you kind of take us through what we're going to be doing here today?

[Sandra O'Brien]

Absolutely.

[Casey O'Brien]

Okay.

[Sandra O'Brien]

First of all, I did. My understanding is that Annabelle is still on tour. The doll. Right. And her handler mysteriously died in a hotel room.

[Millie de Chirico]

Correct.

[Casey O'Brien]

Did you know about this, Mellie?

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes, I did.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah.

[Sandra O'Brien]

So that just adds to the creepy character.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yes.

[Casey O'Brien]

I mean, you can. You can understand why Millie and I are frankly afraid for our lives.

[Sandra O'Brien]

I did hear you discussing Annabelle, and you felt that you somehow brought her attention, that somehow she was going to come into the podcast and haunt you, Correct?

[Casey O'Brien]

Yes.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Right.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yes.

[Sandra O'Brien]

So I do have some questions. First of all, did either of you have actual. Any contact with the Annabelle doll?

[Casey O'Brien]

Millie? You didn't, did you?

[Millie de Chirico]

No, I didn't. Although I do feel I do. You know, she was very close to where I'm located. I'm in Atlanta, and she was in New Orleans, which is, like, eight hours away. And I don't know if that is going to be a factor in this. I mean, I. You know, eight hours is eight hours, but it's. It's. I just feel like she was in my region of the world, and I. And I don't know. I just. I'm not feeling right about it, so.

[Sandra O'Brien]

Right.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Right.

[Sandra O'Brien]

Okay. Also, did either of you ask for any spiritual help for the podcast from demons or otherwise other spiritual beings for help, to invite for help with the podcast?

[Casey O'Brien]

Millie?

[Millie de Chirico]

I certainly didn't.

[Casey O'Brien]

No, I didn't either.

[Millie de Chirico]

I would never.

[Casey O'Brien]

I would never do that.

[Sandra O'Brien]

Okay, well, that. That's all good news.

[Lizzie Bassett]

But.

[Sandra O'Brien]

And I. But I want you to know there's more information that I did lear. I read an article in the Catholic Register, and they interviewed an actual exorcist priest about the Annabelle creation movie, and he said it was fairly factual. Shockingly to Catholic faith. But there are some good news in this. That the Annabella.

[Casey O'Brien]

I hate that information.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Accurate.

[Sandra O'Brien]

The Annabelle doll is not actually the problem. It's the demon that uses the doll as a tool or a conduit to actually possess another human. So if you don't have any interaction with the actual doll, you know, it's probably safer for you. And the really good news is that demons are only in go where they are invited. Evil spirits will only go where they're invited.

[Millie de Chirico]

Okay.

[Sandra O'Brien]

And so that's good news, but then you also kind of have to ask the question, can you accidentally invite evil spirits?

[Casey O'Brien]

That's what I'm. That's what I'm freaking out about.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes.

[Sandra O'Brien]

Really? Yeah. So, I mean, this is a public service announcement. When asking for help from spirits, make sure you're asking for help from good spirits. And there is an actual Catholic prayer that is, come Holy spirit, and then that holy spirit will come and help you. And then the demons don't accidentally come and help you then.

[Millie de Chirico]

Okay, good.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Fabulous.

[Casey O'Brien]

I'm, like, racking my brain. Yeah, that's good to know. Thank you. Yeah, I'm just, like, racking my brain if, like, we, you know, it's freaky to. The episode we're doing today is on the movie K Pop Demon Hunters. So this is all very. This is all very connected.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah. I certainly don't want to open a portal for accidental summoning or anything like, you know, I just, you know, I'm just so glad you're here. I'm just so glad.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Sandra O'Brien]

It's important. And I do want to say, as importantly, perhaps, as your podcast Dear Movies, I love you is a podcast for good.

[Millie de Chirico]

Right.

[Sandra O'Brien]

And you spread love, joy, humor, entertainment, education, even fellowship among film lovers. So it's not a podcast where an evil demon would feel very welcome. So that's good news, too.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes. I think there. There are film podcasts that are evil.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yes, I agree. That are trying to summon evil and are trying to conjure demons and spread misinformation and hatred.

[Millie de Chirico]

So I'm just glad we're not one of those I'm squad.

[Casey O'Brien]

Not yet, anyway.

[Sandra O'Brien]

We want to keep it that way.

[Millie de Chirico]

So we.

[Sandra O'Brien]

So we're thinking just, you know, that being said, just in case, if you are up for it, I think maybe we still should do a little podcast exorcism slash blessing.

[Millie de Chirico]

Oh, absolutely.

[Sandra O'Brien]

Does that. Does that sound like a good plan?

[Casey O'Brien]

Okay. Yes.

[Sandra O'Brien]

So there are steps to be taken. The first thing is I will be taking on the responsibility of the spiritual cleansing and any spiritual risk for the podcast. So.

[Casey O'Brien]

I didn't. I didn't. I didn't realize you were taking risk on for this. Well, I would feel horrible if something happened.

[Sandra O'Brien]

I feel very spiritual protected. But thank you. I. But number one is to protect yourself with religious or spiritual talismans. They help. Will help protect me, and it's best to have them be authentic and like things you believe in. So I just grabbed everything I had in the house and we have. We're pulling out all the stops. I have them all here.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Great, Great.

[Sandra O'Brien]

We're going to start. Do you want to see them all or should I just listen to them?

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah, I would love to see them.

[Sandra O'Brien]

Holy Bible.

[Millie de Chirico]

Perfect.

[Casey O'Brien]

Number one, doesn't need it.

[Sandra O'Brien]

Number two, Crucifix.

[Millie de Chirico]

Oh, I feel like I have that or my mom had that when we were growing up.

[Sandra O'Brien]

Well, it looks familiar.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes, the rosary. Perfect.

[Casey O'Brien]

Because you know what?

[Millie de Chirico]

Crucifix.

[Sandra O'Brien]

Jesus has to be on it. I don't know if, you know, there's a difference. Protestants have crosses, but Catholics have crucifixes. And Jesus is on the crucifix.

[Millie de Chirico]

Right.

[Casey O'Brien]

I didn't know that.

[Sandra O'Brien]

I even have a little Pope new Pope card.

[Millie de Chirico]

Oh, the new Pope.

[Sandra O'Brien]

The new Pope Leo. Good old.

[Millie de Chirico]

That came to your house fast. That's great. Well, I went.

[Sandra O'Brien]

I don't know what I went to. Little angel.

[Millie de Chirico]

Sure.

[Casey O'Brien]

Okay.

[Millie de Chirico]

Okay.

[Sandra O'Brien]

And Mother Teresa for good measure.

[Millie de Chirico]

Oh, I love that.

[Sandra O'Brien]

I already have.

[Casey O'Brien]

I didn't know you had a Mother Teresa action figure.

[Sandra O'Brien]

I actually already lit a candle. And Millie, you'll be. Millie, you're going to be so happy. We have sage.

[Millie de Chirico]

Look at that.

[Sandra O'Brien]

I know you mentioned sage. And then holy water.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes. Essential.

[Sandra O'Brien]

And salt and rice, which is part of the ritual. We have all that and then that's gathered. Is all protecting us. It's protecting me and the whole podcast and you guys. So the first.

[Casey O'Brien]

And our listeners, too, right? If they're listening to this.

[Millie de Chirico]

Exactly.

[Sandra O'Brien]

You're right. They're. And they can get out their own little talismans if they want. But yes, this goes to the airwaves and everyone's protected.

[Millie de Chirico]

Oh, amazing.

[Sandra O'Brien]

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[Sandra O'Brien]

So the second thing we do is we kindly ask the spirit to leave, avoiding anger or fear. But if we could be kind. But if we think it's evil, which is the big concern, right. Then we can actually, if you want to banish it in Latin.

[Casey O'Brien]

Okay, let's do that.

[Millie de Chirico]

I say we go for broke. I mean, why?

[Casey O'Brien]

Let's get our bases covered.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes.

[Sandra O'Brien]

Okay, so maybe I'll hold the crucifix.

[Casey O'Brien]

That seems. Yes, that's good.

[Sandra O'Brien]

That's good. Okay, so I'll say two Latin words at a time and then you say them after me.

[Casey O'Brien]

Okay? Sounds good.

[Sandra O'Brien]

Ecce crucis.

[Casey O'Brien]

Ecce crucis crucis Signum fujiant sigmum fujiant.

[Millie de Chirico]

Phantasmata canta phantasmata kanta.

[Sandra O'Brien]

And that means. Behold the emblem of the cross. Let all specters flee.

[Casey O'Brien]

Oh my God.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Wow.

[Sandra O'Brien]

If we want to be really thorough, then we can also say what they said in the exorcist which is. I'll say it. And then we can all shout it.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Sure.

[Casey O'Brien]

That sounds great.

[Sandra O'Brien]

The power of Christ compels you.

[Casey O'Brien]

The power of Christ compels you. Okay, very good.

[Sandra O'Brien]

That's really good. And then I gotta relight. These are steps I'm following, as you know.

[Millie de Chirico]

Sure.

[Sandra O'Brien]

So relight the smudge. I had it gone before. And then. And then I gotta do it in a circular. A clockwise motion.

[Millie de Chirico]

Got that.

[Sandra O'Brien]

And then we're supposed to spread around.

[Casey O'Brien]

A little holy water. Ooh.

[Sandra O'Brien]

So that's very good podcast.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes. Okay. And then.

[Sandra O'Brien]

Then we can recite an actual prayer against spirits.

[Casey O'Brien]

Okay.

[Sandra O'Brien]

So one little simple one is we can all say, spirit, this is not your home.

[Casey O'Brien]

Okay.

[Sandra O'Brien]

Spirit, this is not your home. This is not your home. And then a stronger one is a prayer by St. Michael the Archangel. Do you know who he is? He's a angel that fights Lucifer and demons and stuff. And if you recall, in 1996, he was famously portrayed by John Travolta and Michael.

[Millie de Chirico]

Wow, this is incredible.

[Sandra O'Brien]

Do you remember he was saying he wasn't. Andy McDowell was like, I thought angels were sweet. And he says, I'm not that kind of angel.

[Casey O'Brien]

Oh, my God. Do you remember that movie, Millie?

[Millie de Chirico]

Oh, I. It's been a while, but I do remember.

[Sandra O'Brien]

So it even portrays, you know, the movie thing even fits in. Okay, maybe I'll just read this one and then I'll do. Because that's kind of long, but I did modify it because these prayers are kind of scary that are waiting. Okay. St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our defense against the wickedness and snares of the Annabelle demon. May God rebuke it, we humbly pray. And do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust away all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls and. And podcasts. Amen.

[Casey O'Brien]

Amen. Amen.

[Sandra O'Brien]

All right, and then can I do a final blessing, please? Is there anything else you want? Okay, so a little final blessing, which we'll use holy water for this. And this is kind of similar to the house blessing we did, but we only have to do one because there's one podcast. Oh, God, give your blessings to all who share in recording this Dear Movies I love you podcast, especially Millie and Casey. Help them continue to spread love and joy to their listeners. Keep them free from evil spirits, especially the Annabelle demon. In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen.

[Millie de Chirico]

Amen.

[Casey O'Brien]

Amen.

[Millie de Chirico]

Wow.

[Casey O'Brien]

Wow. I feel so much safer.

[Millie de Chirico]

I Do, too.

[Casey O'Brien]

Proceeding.

[Millie de Chirico]

I mean, this podcast, I cannot thank you enough for coming to do this.

[Sandra O'Brien]

You are very welcome. It was my pleasure and lots of fun.

[Casey O'Brien]

Thank you, Mom.

[Sandra O'Brien]

You bet.

[Casey O'Brien]

Now, when we were talking, this is a complete aside, but you said you had a film area of expertise if you were to come on the show to pitch. I don't know if you feel comfortable talking.

[Millie de Chirico]

Please.

[Sandra O'Brien]

I felt guilty because I think it's kind of mean. But it's all men who insist on taking their shirts off in movies.

[Casey O'Brien]

That shouldn't.

[Millie de Chirico]

That shouldn't.

[Sandra O'Brien]

That should not. And, you know, I guess it started with Clint Eastwood and Bridges of Madison county, and Meryl Streep was looking out the window, lusting after him, and I was just like, I don't think so.

[Casey O'Brien]

You couldn't make that jump.

[Sandra O'Brien]

I couldn't make that jump.

[Casey O'Brien]

You couldn't make.

[Sandra O'Brien]

That's just me, though.

[Millie de Chirico]

You know, you must come back on podcast. And I'm saying this as somebody who has already, you know, considered you a legend for your chick's picks.

[Sandra O'Brien]

Chick's Picks?

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes. Which we've talked about. We talk about it almost every episode. I feel like. I feel like chicks picks comes into the conversation, but we have to get your area of expertise. That is incredible.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Oh, my gosh.

[Sandra O'Brien]

Well, I'll have to do more research, I guess.

[Casey O'Brien]

Oh, my God. Well, thank you so much, Mom. Really appreciate you coming on the podcast and, you know, exposing yourself to becoming vulnerable spiritually, to be our, you know, protector and guide through all this. Well, I appreciate it. Say I love it. Okay, well, thank you so much, mom, for being on the show and helping and protecting us. We're talking about a movie today that's sort of in line with what we just talked about, and that's K Pop Demon Hunters. This wasn't even really planned.

[Millie de Chirico]

No.

[Casey O'Brien]

I knew we were going to do it on this episode, and it just happened to be the K Pop Demon Hunters episode that just came out this year. We're also going to be talking with the what Went Wrong podcast. We've got Chris Winterbauer and Lizzie Bassett on the show for my area of expertise, and they're going to be talking about their area of expertise, which is movies, where things went really wrong. So that's a really fun conversation. But, yeah, that's all we. This is a packed episode, Millie.

[Millie de Chirico]

Oh, it's good. I already feel blessed, obviously, and I think it's going to be incredible and smooth sailing from here on out. We do not have the Annabelle demon cursing this podcast at all. And I'm very excited about that. But yeah, I would love for Mrs. O', Brien, if you would, to introduce the podcast and get us going. Would you do that for us?

[Sandra O'Brien]

Of course. You are listening to Dear Movies, I love you.

[Millie de Chirico]

Dear Movies, I love you. And I've got to know if you love me too. Yes or no?

[Casey O'Brien]

Check the box below.

[Millie de Chirico]

Well, howdy, folks. This is Dear Movies, I love you. This is the podcast for those who are in a relationship with movies. My name is Millie de Chirico.

[Casey O'Brien]

My name is Casey o' Brien and whoa.

[Millie de Chirico]

Gosh, I am feeling free as a bird. How do you feel?

[Casey O'Brien]

Me too. I feel cleansed. I feel blessed. I feel spiritually clean. I feel great for the first time in a long time.

[Millie de Chirico]

God, your mom is so awesome. She is a film fan.

[Casey O'Brien]

She is.

[Millie de Chirico]

I should have clocked that with the chicks picks thing because we talk about it so often, but her dropping in that knowledge about Michael, about, you know, the Exorcist, I'm like, wow.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah, she's. I mean, I feel like I got my love for film from my mom and dad, who are big, you know, they're big time film fans.

[Millie de Chirico]

So you're so lucky. I. And also too, I was. I felt like such a lapsed Catholic when she was. I was like, oh, my gosh, I haven't been to church in a hundred million years. But it was lovely of her to have done that. I mean, quite honestly, I was like, wow, the holy water's out. The Bible's out. Out.

[Casey O'Brien]

The Mother Teresa action figure's out. Yeah. The Pope Leo baseball card is out. It was. Yeah, she's got it all.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah. Oh, my goodness. But now that we're blessed.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yes.

[Millie de Chirico]

We have such a show, don't you think?

[Casey O'Brien]

We have such a huge show. So we have to get moving here. And how we start every episode is we open up that ancient film diary.

[Millie de Chirico]

Oh, gosh, the tome, and we talk.

[Casey O'Brien]

About the movies we watched in the past week. Now it's actually been a couple weeks since we last recorded, so we might have a little bit of build up.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

Well, then we need to.

[Millie de Chirico]

Says you.

[Casey O'Brien]

Well, would you like to go first?

[Millie de Chirico]

Sure. So for this, I don't know, past week or two, I watched three movies, which I think, wow, for me is good. I watched 1982's Fitzcarralto, directed by Werner Herzog.

[Casey O'Brien]

I also watched this movie.

[Millie de Chirico]

I figured you did. I don't know why I thought that. This is insane, as per usual. I haven't seen it in a long time actually.

[Casey O'Brien]

So the reason we both watched it is we will be on an upcoming episode of the what Went Wrong podcast. So make sure you tune in to that and subscribe to that podcast, because we actually. And we actually have the hosts of that show on our show today.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah, yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

So this is all synergy working towards each other.

[Millie de Chirico]

Correct. And on that note, I actually also watched the corresponding less blank documentary from 1982, Burden of Dreams, which is an incredible doc if you haven't seen it. I personally don't think you. I don't know if you feel this, but I personally do not think you need to see Fitzcarraldo to enjoy Burn of Dreams.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah, I think that's probably true. I also would say to see Fitzcarraldo without Burden of Dreams feels incomplete a little bit. I think you kind of need to see either both or just Burden of Dreams.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes, I kind of feel that, too. Okay. And so the last movie that I will log this week for my Film Diary was an absolute treat for me. I have never seen this movie before. I have always wanted to see this movie before. And it's been recently restored by. I think it's Kino Lorber. I think they've done the restoration. 1980s Night of the Juggler, directed Night.

[Casey O'Brien]

Of the Juggler, directed by Robert Butler.

[Millie de Chirico]

This movie is an absolute fucking ride, dude. Like, I loved every second of. Was awesome.

[Casey O'Brien]

Oh, my God.

[Millie de Chirico]

It's effectively. And I didn't know this until actually when the screening happened here at the Plaza in Atlanta. There was a filmmaker named Mike Malloy. He's a filmmaker and a writer, and he's really kind of an expert on. He calls it like tough guy movies. He's written a book or has done a documentary about the kind of European crime movies, especially the Italian ones, the, like, Fernando DiLeo movies. But he's one of the talking head. He talks and writes, and he's kind of a historian in that very specific genre. But he was basically like, this is a remake of Kurosawa's High and Low, which is essentially just a movie about a guy, a single father, whose young daughter is kidnapped for ransom. And the kidnapper is a psycho and has accidentally kidnapped his daughter because she looks and is dressed exactly like this rich guy's daughter. And so it's basically this kind of like chase through New York. And this is like late 70s, early 80s New York, 42nd street pumping just like beautiful, old school, grimy New York. James Brolin is a very hunky James Brolin.

[Chris Winterbauer]

It looks like.

[Millie de Chirico]

Oh, yeah, he's got like, four buttons down on his button up shirt. So you're just seeing chest hair. He's an ex cop. He's racing through the streets, like, looking for his daughter who was kidnapped by Cliff Gorman, who is an actual perfect psycho, by the way. Like, he plays the part so well. Not that he's an actual psycho, but you know what I mean, he's perfect for it. And there are so many good dudes in here. I mean, you got Richard Castellano from the Godfather movies. Like, the best. I mean, Mandy Patinkin's in the movie playing this crazy cab driver. The best, though, hands, bar none, hands down, is Dan Hedaya. Hirsute Dan Hedaya.

[Casey O'Brien]

We love Dan Hedaya on this podcast.

[Millie de Chirico]

Absolutely. We love him so much. He plays this cop character that is absolutely insane. Just his performance is insane. There's an entire incredible sequence of the movie where he's literally running through the streets of Manhattan chasing James Brolin, shooting a shotgun just indiscriminately. People everywhere. I mean, this movie is kind of that feeling. It's like the feeling of, like, how dangerous it was almost to make movies in the 70s where it was like. And I'm sure this was shot in the 70s, even though it came out in, I guess, 80. But it was like, just grimy. Like, people just like. I was like, do they even have permits for this? I mean, I don't even. I don't see how they were able to run through the streets and do any of this stuff. It feels so grimy, dangerous. I mean, crazy story. There's a lot of, like, kind of crazy parts that happen in the movie. But I loved. I was literally on the edge of my seat the entire movie. I was laughing. I was freaked out. It was awesome. It was awesome. Everybody, you have to watch Night of the Juggler.

[Casey O'Brien]

What an insane title of a movie. Night of the Juggler.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah. That's interesting, I gotta say. Like, it barely ties in, but, you know, who cares? What a great name.

[Casey O'Brien]

I have a bunch of movies.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes.

[Casey O'Brien]

I won't spend too much time on these, but I do want to say I saw Weapons.

[Millie de Chirico]

Oh, God. I got to see it. I got to see it.

[Casey O'Brien]

I really liked it. Yeah, it was really. I was. You know, it kind of got under my skin in the way that Jordan Peele's horror movies do. I thought it was really good and unique and, you know, I'm very sensitive to things happening to little kids, obviously.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes.

[Casey O'Brien]

I mean, everyone is. But now that I have a daughter, I am. I am More affected by it. Yeah, unfortunately. But it was very imaginative and yet very simple. I just thought it was. I. Really great movie. Yeah, everyone likes that movie, so I'm not.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah, they shot. They shot.

[Casey O'Brien]

Oh, they did.

[Millie de Chirico]

They actually shot that in Atlanta. And I know people that worked on it, so I. I gotta see it. I got.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah, you should see it. I thought. I thought it was great. Then I saw Sam Raimi's the Quick and the Dead from 1995.

[Millie de Chirico]

It was fun.

[Casey O'Brien]

I've never seen it before. Lots of fun zoom ins on people's faces and. Yeah, it's fun. Fun Western. Then maybe you'll know this movie. Millie, this might be right up your alley. I saw this at a special screening at the Trilon Theater in Minneapolis. It was actually screened at someone's backyard on 16 millimeter film. It was kind of cool. It's a 1955 movie starring Victor Mature. You know him?

[Millie de Chirico]

Oh, I do.

[Casey O'Brien]

It's called Violent Saturday. Have you ever seen this movie?

[Millie de Chirico]

No, but I know exactly what you're talking about.

[Casey O'Brien]

This is such a kooky.

[Millie de Chirico]

Lee Marvin's in it, right?

[Casey O'Brien]

Lee Marvin's in it. Yeah. It's sort of like half melodrama, half incredibly violent movie. Yeah, it's filmed entirely in Bisbee, Arizona. So it has sort of an interesting kind of desert feel to it. And essentially, Victor Mature is. He works for this, like, mining company and he had to work there during the war because they needed, like, iron ore for the war effort and he had to stay there working. But all the other dads in town, they went to war and, like, killed Nazis and stuff and could tell their sons they fought in the war. And basically his son is ashamed of him because he didn't, like, kill people in the war. And he's like. You can tell he's kind of like itching to, like, I got to do something to, you know, win back my son. And he does. And it does involve killing a bunch of people, so. But it was. Yeah, it was fun. It was a good. It was a good movie. I enjoyed watching it. Kind of outrageous.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

Then I watched. Okay, I guess I didn't watch that many movies, but then I watched the lawnmower man from 1992. And you know what? I liked the Lawnmower Man. I thought it was good. I like cyberpunk stuff. And I mean, this is like, outrageous. An outrageous movie. But, like, there's like a young, younger Pierce Brosnan in it as a scientist who's like, basically making a simple Jack character, like smarter by. Infusing his brain with like, like manipulating it with virtual reality. It's outrageous. But I had a great time. This is enjoyed it.

[Millie de Chirico]

Stephen King thing, right?

[Casey O'Brien]

So I looked it up. Stephen King wrote a short story called the Lawnmower man. And they had the rights to it, but the director of the movie had this completely different idea about virtual reality. And they basically made that virtual reality movie. But the guy who is the test subject is a lawnmower guy and they call it the Lawnmower Man. But it has nothing to do with Stephen King's story the Lawnmower Man. So Stephen King sued them and was like, you gotta take my name. Because they it was billed as Stephen King's the Lawnmower Man. And he's like, this is like, not my story at all. So he successfully sued. But then in the home video release the film, the filmmakers were like, man, just slap that Stephen King right back on there again. And they got in trouble for that. So he's not really related to this movie at all.

[Millie de Chirico]

Okay, got it.

[Casey O'Brien]

All right, let's close it up.

[Millie de Chirico]

All right, Close that shit.

[Casey O'Brien]

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[Sandra O'Brien]

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[Millie de Chirico]

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[Casey O'Brien]

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[Casey O'Brien]

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[Casey O'Brien]

Void where prohibited by law 21 +.

[Millie de Chirico]

Terms and conditions apply all right, we're.

[Casey O'Brien]

Back for our main discussion. K Pop Demon Hunters. My goodness. This movie has taken over.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah. What a juggernaut. I. So, full disclosure, this is the first time I've seen it, even though literally everybody in my life has asked me if I've seen it. And at first I thought it was because they were like, well, I know one weird adult lady.

[Casey O'Brien]

I know one freak.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah. Who likes K Pop. But then I realized that everybody's just watching it because it's popular. I mean, my nephews who are young, who are like 10 and 7, have seen it dozens of times. I think they're in the double digits at this point.

[Casey O'Brien]

I mean, that makes sense to me because when I watched this, I feel like it tapped into something childlike within me. And I was like, if I saw this when I was a kid, it would have made me go insane, like, with excitement.

[Millie de Chirico]

Oh, of course. Because it has action. There's music. It's like boy groups versus girl groups. I mean, it's giving Powerpuff Girls, if you want to go down that road.

[Casey O'Brien]

Absolutely. And boy versus girl World Series of Love, frankly.

[Millie de Chirico]

Of course. Of course. Who doesn't like A Boy vs Girl World Series of Love? But it's also, and this is crazy because I feel like most of the kids that I know have seen it. Most of their parents have seen it. But then there's also just a bunch of, like, random adults that love it. Like, somebody sent me. There was a K Pop Demon Hunters, like, club night the other night in Atlanta.

[Casey O'Brien]

Wow.

[Millie de Chirico]

With like.

[Casey O'Brien]

That would be so fun. Yes.

[Millie de Chirico]

Wouldn't it? But there was like, DJs, and it was at a bar. So I'm like, okay. I guess adults love this too. Which is cool. I mean, I'm like, I know. I don't know what you think about this, but, like, the thing that I love about something like this. And by the way, there's gonna be spoilers for people who haven't seen it.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yes, there are.

[Millie de Chirico]

Just prepare as. As if we didn't. But the one thing that I really love about something like, this is that. And this did not really happen much in my childhood. I don't know about yours, but, like, this type of movie, I think would have been seen as, like, a girls movie in my childhood.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Millie de Chirico]

Do you know what I'm saying? Because the protagonist are girls. That's really the only.

[Casey O'Brien]

The protagonists are girls. And. And the. I mean, the men in this are hunky, sensitive boys who show their abs.

[Millie de Chirico]

And there's.

[Casey O'Brien]

There's a character named. What's his. It's something about. It's like a play on words for ab with abs in it.

[Millie de Chirico]

It is abs. Saja.

[Casey O'Brien]

Oh, my God, I like that. Abs, like, when they see, like, are horny for abs in the movies, their eyes turn to, like, emoji corn cobs, because that. The corn kind of looks like abs.

[Millie de Chirico]

And then they pop, pop into pop.

[Casey O'Brien]

And then they pop, which is so cute.

[Millie de Chirico]

But the idea that my nephews have seen this movie, like, they told my sister told me they watched it five times in one day.

[Casey O'Brien]

That's crazy.

[Millie de Chirico]

Which is, if you do the math on that, 10 hours. They watch this movie for 10 hours in a row. And I'm like, yeah. The idea, though, that everybody loves it, like, regardless of gender, that this isn't just, like, a girl thing is so awesome to me.

[Casey O'Brien]

And I'm like, if feels very progressive.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah, I agree.

[Casey O'Brien]

Because even, like, when the Powerpuff Girls came out, you know, that was the time where, like, Dexter's Lab and Johnny Bravo came out, and it was kind of like, oh, boys don't watch Powerpuff Girls. They watch Dexter's Laboratory and Johnny Bravo. But that's so. Or like Sailor Moon, for example, too. That was like. No, boys watch Dragon Ball Z. They don't watch Sailor Moon. So, yeah, it does feel, like, progressive and revolutionary and it's, like, exciting and awesome.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah, I think I did too. And I want to talk about a little about this because, like, when I was down my research hole, I. I just knew that it was gonna be, like, the number one. I was like, oh, it'll be number one this week. And apparently all the songs from the show are, like, number one on the Billboard chart as well.

[Casey O'Brien]

Sure.

[Millie de Chirico]

But I have read that not only is this the biggest hit on Netflix currently, but it's the most popular movie in Netflix history.

[Casey O'Brien]

That's not surprising.

[Millie de Chirico]

And I'm just curious, like, your thoughts about. Well, I guess maybe to scope out a tiny bit. There's, like, the concept of the Netflix movie at this point. Right. Because obviously Netflix has come into the film business and has been a disruptor, as they call it, a disruptor. And pretty much like changed everything, whether or not we all want to admit that or not. And to me, you know, there. There was this whole back and forth about, you know, the distribution model of somebody like Netflix, meaning that they own a film studio and they make films, but yet will they be theatrical or are they just gonna be on their platform? Like, what's the vibe? And we've seen now that they do release things theatrically, they have their own MO Theater, Right.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Millie de Chirico]

In la, or at least it's kind of their movie theater to play with type of thing. And that's the cinema tech or the Egyptian in Hollywood. But I'm curious as to what do you think right now in 2025 about the idea of there being a movie that you can instantly, almost visually comprehend as a Netflix movie? Like, is there something about a movie that is made by Netflix that feels different or just looks different or something?

[Casey O'Brien]

First of all, Netflix's movie strategy has gone through like a few iterations because I feel like when they were like really hitting it hard several years ago, right around the time when, like Roma was released, they were very much like, we're doing movies that we want to win Academy Awards. These are high end prestige pictures, you know, and those looked like films that would be in the movie theater.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

Then kind of like round two of that was sort of the Netflix movie, which you're kind of referring to, which I think which was more like movies like to all the boys I loved before.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

Which are like brightly lit, almost kind of like WB old style WB shows that are kind of like movies now, like more teen movies. And those. Yeah. Had a very specific, brightly lit, not as cinematic look to them. This is a bad thing to say about them. But they look like TV movies almost.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

But now I feel like those movies aren't even getting made by Netflix as much anymore. Now they're doing reality TV shows and.

[Millie de Chirico]

And true crime documentaries. They do so many, like true crime.

[Casey O'Brien]

I don't really know where. Where they're at in their kind of movie journey, like what movies they're making. So it's interesting that this animated movie is now their most popular movie of all time. It's like, maybe this will be their strategy moving forward. Just animation movies, you know, I mean.

[Millie de Chirico]

We'Re looking at this top 10. And this is just for English language. Like, this doesn't count. You know, Korea or any of the other countries that would enjoy a movie like this. Do you Know what I'm saying? So I think this is probably a good jumping off point to talking about like. Like the cultural references for something like K Pop Demon Hunters. Because. And I will admit, I don't know half of what people know about K pop or what they call the Korean wave, which is basically just the proliferation of culture that has come out of South Korea, you know, in the past, like, what, 20, 30 years. So it's like I'm talking about not just K pop music, but like Squid Game, the K drama world, you know, Parasite. Exactly. And I've joked about this before about how I feel like Asians are having a moment. And I like to, you know, sort of milk that. Being that I'm half Asian, I'm like, oh, you know, we're having a moment. You know, my kind is a little bit more out there and people are loving us. But it is interesting the idea that Americans have gotten so into Korean product. Like, just generally when I say product, I mean, like, not just cultural ephemera, but like food and music and like, that kind of stuff. So I don't know. It's interesting because I do feel, having watched K Pop Demon Hunters, it doesn't. There are definitely specific references to the K pop world, which we'll talk about in just a second. But it does feel a lot more like less kind of in the weeds about the details. It feels a lot more open so that it's not like, highly specific, if you know what I mean.

[Casey O'Brien]

I don't really know anything about K Pop and I was able to jump right in feet first.

[Millie de Chirico]

That's great.

[Casey O'Brien]

Should I do a brief synopsis of this movie? Would now be a good time for that?

[Millie de Chirico]

I think it would be a perfect time.

[Casey O'Brien]

You know, we didn't say size. Gangnam Style. That was big too. That was kind of an entry point for.

[Millie de Chirico]

I had no idea he was Korean. I thought he was like, I. I don't know where I thought he was. I was like, I thought he was from India. I didn't know.

[Casey O'Brien]

Okay, here we go. K Pop demon hunters from 2025, the biggest K pop trio in the world is a group called Hunt Tricks. It's comprised of their leader, Rumi, voiced by Arden Cho, the angsty Mira, voiced by Mei Hong, and Zoe, voiced by Ji Yongyu. She's the upbeat one. Besides being the world's biggest pop stars, they are also ancient demon hunters and protect the world from the dark forces controlled by the leader of the demon world, gimaw. Now Huntrix is absolutely destroying all of Gimaw's minions until a sexy demon named Jinu, who is voiced by Ahn Yo Sian, has the idea to start a demon K pop group and steal all of Huntrix's fans, which is kind of sort of their source of power. And if they steal all of their fans, then the demon world can take over the regular world. I don't really want to explain why that's the case, but just it will. Okay. And thus, the sexy evil boy band named the Saja Boys is born. And they are a hit and they are stealing fans. Things are getting difficult for Huntrix, not just because they are hemorrhaging fans, but also because their leader, Rumi has a few secrets, one of which, she is part demon, and that's a big no no. And then two, she and Ginu, the leader of the Saja Boys. Romance is happening. Something's happening there. Something very sexy is happening. So this is kind of sets the stage for K pop demon hunters.

[Millie de Chirico]

I'm a demon. Do you remember that from Tim and Eric? Do you remember Will Forte when he would be on Tim and Eric? And he's. He's screaming like, you know, he's playing this like, crazy white guy character like he always does. And then he just goes, I'm a demon.

[Casey O'Brien]

I'm a demon. I did not remember that. Oh, my God.

[Millie de Chirico]

I gotta send it to you. If you don't put it in the episode, I will die.

[Casey O'Brien]

I'm a demon. I will put it in. I must. I must.

[Millie de Chirico]

So what were your thoughts, Casey?

[Casey O'Brien]

Well, like I said, I was getting like, hyper. Especially the first couple songs because they are so electric and like the song where they're like falling out of the plane, I was hyped. I mean, that really got me excited. And it also, it seems like people are really. People are really juiced about the song Takedown too. Even though in the movie that's the mean one, you know, that's like the naughty one.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes.

[Casey O'Brien]

So, like, those harder, like, more aggressive pop songs really were thrilling for me and I had a good time. I really had a lot of fun watching this. I thought the animation looked really cool too. It almost had like a stop motion quality to it.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes.

[Casey O'Brien]

And it was. I don't know, I thought it was like artistic and thoughtful looking. And the character designs are really cool. Like, the sideja Boy's hair alone is fantastic. Like, it's like the guy who has kind of like the. I don't know if you call it like a wolf cut.

[Millie de Chirico]

Is it a wolf cut?

[Casey O'Brien]

It's the one that's kind of like a mushroom top sort of where it's in his eyes. Like you don't even see his eyes.

[Millie de Chirico]

I don't think. Okay. I feel like you cannot see several of their eyes. Let me get a look at these Sacha Boys. One moment please. Because really, the Sacha Boys, I mean, Ji Nu is the leader or you know, you know, I would say the leader of the band, which by the way, as we talk about K pop, that is an actual role that's in a K pop group, right? There's a leader. There's a leader in every K pop group.

[Casey O'Brien]

Would you want to be a leader or would you want to be one of these, like, side people?

[Millie de Chirico]

Oh, no, I, I listen, if I, I would be a rapper. Like, let's establish this way up top. So in most K pop groups there are roles which we'll get to in just a second because K pop is a factory. I, I hate to admit that as much as I have enjoyed it over the past year and a half, I have really started to understand the factory quality of this musical genre. Okay. And every K pop group and there's like ranging from three, like the Hunt Tricks to like there's a band called Seventeen. I swear to God, I think they have like 10 members. I don't know how many people are allowed to be. Yeah, but you have certain roles, so you usually have like bare mins. You have a leader and he's usually the guy that can speak the best English. I hate to say it.

[Casey O'Brien]

I see.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes. Not 100% of the time, but for the most part he is the guy that is like in front of the, you know, Entertainment Tonight talking about whomever, right? And he can speak English. Then you have the, on the opposite end you have what they call the maknae, which is the youngest member. And in this, in Huntrix, I think it's Zoe, right? The black haired one. She's the maknae. And she like, the maknae is kind of like a prized member of the group because they're the youngest, they're the cutest, they're the ones that are supposed to perform the most cuteness.

[Casey O'Brien]

I see. Are they usually the fan favorite too? I mean, or does it depend?

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah, it can depend. I mean, I will say for BTS, which is the 1K pop band that I actually know a little bit about, Jungkook, who is the maknae of bts, I would argue is the most popular member despite the fact that I like them all. But he's Got that special little something. And I also think, sort of generally, like, everybody loves a youngest kid. They're so cute. Right. And I say this as the oldest kid. I could care less about young kids. Fuck you. You got everything you wanted, kid. Okay. Yeah. And the oldest kids had to suffer alone.

[Casey O'Brien]

That's so true. I've had. I felt. I feel that.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah. I'm sure you're the oldest too, right?

[Casey O'Brien]

I am, yeah.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yep. And then you have. Most times, there's what they call the lines, which is basically like rappers versus singers. So you have like a rap line or in a. In a vocal line. Right. And that is exactly what that is. Like, like, guys or girls who can rap and then those who primarily sing. And then typically, you would have another member with. This is insane to me. I don't know why, but they're called the visual, which is the hottest member.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah. That would probably be the abs. That would probably be abs, right?

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah. I would not be the visual at all. Clearly. I would be. I would want to be in the rap line. I think I'd like to be a rapper. What about you?

[Casey O'Brien]

I want to be the little baby one.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

I want to be the young one.

[Millie de Chirico]

It's hard to resist. It's.

[Casey O'Brien]

It seems like there's less pressure. You just have to kind of, like, be cute, and if you goof up, it's kind of in character, you know? But I would just seems like there's so much pressure to be in one of these.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah. I was going to say, conversely, I would say being the Mach name means you get infantilized. And so you're gonna have to have your, like, you know, Justin Bieber moment where you get a bunch of tattoos and he kind of like, be like, I'm amazing.

[Casey O'Brien]

I gotta flip.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

Well, I just sent you a picture of Mystery who is in the Saja Boys, and he's the one whose hair is completely covering his eyes. That's the hairstyle I was talking about.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes. I would like to say that that's a wolf cut, but I don't. Yeah, I. The Saja boys are interesting. I think the leader, Janu, is. I mean, this is gonna sound weird as shit, but I'm gonna throw it out there. He's so attractive for a cartoon character.

[Casey O'Brien]

I mean, he's hot. He's very hot. He reminds me a little bit of Shohei Otani. I know Shohei's Japanese, but that tall, you know?

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

Tree of a man you could climb.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

Ginu's got that.

[Millie de Chirico]

She knew. Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

And the guy who voices him looks exactly like. Looks a lot like him. I don't know if you've seen. Look, looked him up. Ahn Hyo Seop. Yeah, I believe his name is.

[Millie de Chirico]

I know that he was kind of designed after like really. I don't watch K dramas by the way. I feel like that's a world that I should not get into.

[Casey O'Brien]

I see. You think you'd lose yourself in there. We wouldn't get Millie back.

[Millie de Chirico]

Oh, I think I would fall so far into the core of the earth that I would. Would never come out. I mean, you thought TikTok was bad. If I got into K dramas it would be game over. Yeah. But yeah, I feel like his character was based on these like famous K drama actors who are all like hunky. But I mean there were moments in K pop Demon Hunters where I was like, wow, like he's really given a romantic look. There's.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Millie de Chirico]

What is up?

[Casey O'Brien]

They. I was really impressed like with the animation, like the facial reactions they had down. I mean I haven't watched that many K pop music videos but they really had the moves down, the facial expressions, the little like snaps they do, you know and I. So it was like, it felt like accurate.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

You know, historically accurate I would say too.

[Millie de Chirico]

And, and I mean I would be remiss if I did not mention that all the hunt tricks are baddies of the nth degree.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah. Do you have a favorite?

[Millie de Chirico]

Well, normally I gravitate towards. And this is actual and factual. Anytime there's a group of. Of girls that are in a property, an IP like a movie or a TV show, I'm always gravitating towards like the black haired one who is usually the goth. Right.

[Casey O'Brien]

There's definitely a goth character. The angsty one.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes. But.

[Casey O'Brien]

And that's Mira.

[Millie de Chirico]

Mira. But that's what I was about to say. I think spiritually I love Mira because she feels the most angsty. The more the most sarcastic. Although she is not the dark haired character who is who I usually go for.

[Casey O'Brien]

Spiritually though I feel like she is.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah. Spiritually she is. So it's hard to resist this like baby banged freckly like little puff pigtails Zoe, the maknae. I. She's so cute to me and I was like aw. But she's a little too happy for.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Millie de Chirico]

For me.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Millie de Chirico]

What about you?

[Casey O'Brien]

You know what I would say Mira's my favorite. She's like the most goth and I like that there's a few things this, this whole movie is in some ways Propaganda for like big K Pop.

[Millie de Chirico]

Oh, good.

[Casey O'Brien]

Like, jeez, there. I mean, the basic, like there. The crux of the movie a lot of times is like the only fuel these K pop artists needs need are their fans to love them. And that, like, keeps them going above all else.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes.

[Casey O'Brien]

And I just thought that was really kind of funny. Like, that's kind of like what the plot's about too. It's like the. The love that their fans give them is what propels them and that's who.

[Millie de Chirico]

They want to save at the end of the day.

[Casey O'Brien]

And that's who they want to save. Yeah.

[Millie de Chirico]

Listen, Casey, I've been in this. I've been in these streets for like, I don't know, maybe like 14 months, 16 months. These K Pop streets.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Millie de Chirico]

I am a total newbie. So please, if you're out there and you're like, I've been listening to K pop since, you know, 2005. Okay? I respect you. And you know what, if you want to email me, DearMoviesExactlyRightMedia.com, give me some education. But I will just speak on my limited experience with the K pop world. You and I, Casey, come from this completely other world which is called indie rock. Okay? Now, I'm not saying in the current iteration of indie rock that there aren't more commercial interests at hand. I think we know that now. Okay. But it's really hard, I think, for people of our persuasion to understand the hyper capitalism of K Pop.

[Casey O'Brien]

It is something that, I mean, I've just been listening to Fugazi's in On the Kill Table. You think, you know, it's like, I'm not even. I can't even like, understand what's going on with this, you know, so this.

[Millie de Chirico]

Is something that I have thought about so much in this world because like I said, you and I are. We were raised on primarily American independent music, right? Where the narrative is that a bunch of people get together, they maybe went to high school together, they got into a garage, they started strumming on instruments, and then they just sort of figured out how to be in a band. And then they went on tour and they slept on people's couches and then they maybe got popular. Maybe. Right. It's not a guarantee. Right?

[Casey O'Brien]

Yes.

[Millie de Chirico]

This world has the opposite sort of origin story for musicians that. And really, you know, you can say musicians, but really kind of performers. Right? There, There's a. When it, when it comes down to it, I feel like the fan dumb of K pop is essentially the whole. It's the engine that drives the boat.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Millie de Chirico]

And it's because, you know, this is like, these are, you know, this is another country. I'm not going to suggest that. I know a ton about, you know, the cultural, you know, ins and outs of South Korea or Korea, and about what their entertainment industry is like and what their beauty standards are like, or what they. What they expect out of their celebrities. Certainly America has that too. But, like, I honestly feel that, like, when we're going to fugazi shows and paying, like, $5, Fugazi is not even looking at us in the crowd. They don't even give a. I mean, I'm sure they care, but they don't care.

[Casey O'Brien]

There's actually some disdain.

[Millie de Chirico]

They hate their fans. Indie rockers hate their fans. And they certainly feel like they don't owe anything to us. Does that make sense?

[Casey O'Brien]

Absolutely. Yeah. No, absolutely.

[Millie de Chirico]

Whereas I think in the K Pop world, there's this thing called fan service, which is. This is an insane concept to me because of what we've just talked about, which is that it is part of the training of K pop to give fan service. And that includes, like, doing fan signings and going on to, you know, like, live environments, like a Facebook Live or like an Instagram live in that kind of world, to speak directly to fans, look at them in the eye, tell them that they love them, tell them that. That they're. That they're their girlfriends, do things on stage that suggest, like, love and appreciation and maybe even like, sexual or romantic attraction. And to me, that feels kind of underhanded and weird a little bit. Does that make sense?

[Casey O'Brien]

It almost feels like a phone sex operator in a way. Like, it's like you almost like you're trying to entice them to spend more money on you, you know, by, like, by being like, I love you, you know, you're so beautiful. Like, our fans keep us going, like, there. I don't know. Yes, it's weird. Yes, it is weird.

[Millie de Chirico]

And there's. There's, like, things in place that energize that, like, all K Pop groups have a fandom that they've named. Right? So, like, for example, if you're into bts, you're called R and B. Me, Right? If you're into a band called ats, you're called A Tiny or whatever. Okay, so they're named. So you have a name. So you're referenced by name.

[Casey O'Brien]

Millie, I have to ask you, what are our. What are our small but powerful group of listeners, our fans? What are they called? So they. They can have camaraderie with each other and we can offer fan service.

[Millie de Chirico]

Oh my God. That is. Is an amazing question. Well, a large part of me believes that we should not create the name. That they should create the name. Right. Just to be like a little bit more organic.

[Casey O'Brien]

Organic punk rock and so. And so we can be like, oh my God, it's so I. They call themselves this. I would never.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes.

[Casey O'Brien]

Label them that. But.

[Millie de Chirico]

But if right off the top of my head, and this is probably the worst name, but I can't help but think it would be really funny if our fans call themselves the Shitheads.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah, I think this is actually good because it's more descriptive of a type of film person. It's how we use the term, you know, a type of person who likes art house films and like difficult films. And so it's also a type of person separate from like a fan of our show. It's more like descriptive of the type of person who would like our show.

[Millie de Chirico]

Right. It's like we always talk about, for those not in the know, being in your shithead phase when you're younger, which is that you're pretty much exclusively into very esoteric and hard to comprehend things because you want to be seen as artsy or interesting or whatever. You know, you're like in film school and you're like, tartovsky is the only director that I fuck with. Right. That's your shithead face. And so. So we talk about it often. We both have had one.

[Casey O'Brien]

Haven't totally escaped it either, haven't.

[Millie de Chirico]

I gotta love it. I still from time to time go back, but yeah, I was like, wouldn't it be hilarious for fans of a thing to be called the Shitheads? I don't know if that would legally work in any kind of capacity, but I think it's funny.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Sure.

[Casey O'Brien]

I don't know what the SEO on that is. But.

[Millie de Chirico]

What about you, though? What is your thoughts?

[Casey O'Brien]

Oh, God, I don't. I mean, I don't. I think. I think the. Is great. I think that's great. And if it's not shitheads, then I think we. I think you're right. I don't know if we should be the ones to ascribe a name to our listeners. You know, that's on that.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah, maybe.

[Casey O'Brien]

Hey, that's a. I'll respect it.

[Millie de Chirico]

You should email us at Dear Movies at exactly. Right. Media.com. come up with a fan name if you want to. That's if we have fans.

[Casey O'Brien]

If anyone's actually listening to this Anyway.

[Millie de Chirico]

So back to the K pop names, right? The names of the fans. One of the things that comes out of naming a fan base, I feel like, is just this sense of camaraderie, right? It's kind of like being a Deadhead. That's kind of what I liken this to, is being a Deadhead or a fish head or something. It's kind of a way for people to affiliate, right? But it's also, I feel like a way in to fans that makes them feel special and makes them feel wanted and appreciated to the end that you're talking about, which is you must buy all 10 versions of this album in every color, that colorway that we've released it in, or else you're not a good fan or something. Like, there's that kind of vibe to it. And I mean, it's not just albums. They are. It's like, it's kind of the supremification of things like limited edition merch day only merch, like, like tour merch albums. You know, you're. They're. You're getting nickel and dimed a lot by these companies. And these are huge companies, by the way. These are like multinational huge corporations pumping out bands. They're like, you're gonna pay for English translations to live videos. You're gonna pay for access to special merch. Not just on top of the merch itself, but this special merch requires a subscription. If release a documentary or a live concert, you will have to go onto our platform, pay for a membership, and then pay for, you know, as like you would pay for Amazon, you know, on Amazon prime, but then you pay for titles by title. It really feels like a huge investment. And so that's why I kind of like cringe about the fan service stuff because I'm just like, like, what are we doing? Are you coercing me into. Are you loving me so that I can, you know, buy your stuff? And so that, I think is what. To get back to the original point of K Pop Demon Hunters. I think that that is possibly why there is so much talk about fandom in this movie, right?

[Casey O'Brien]

You know what you're touching upon these corporate, these like musicians as corporations essentially trying to get people to buy as much stuff as possible, I think. And God help me, by invoking this name, we might need my mom to come back on to make sure we're not killed for invoking this person's name on the podcast. But that's sort of one of the things I. That makes me feel a little bit icky. About Taylor Swift.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

And how much money people are spending on seeing her live. And you know, there's like the friendship brace. There's so many things that go into it. And it's not as bad as K pop, it doesn't sound like. But there is an element with her as well where I'm like, would you even consider yourself an artist or are you a performer? Yeah, you know, and. Yeah, I don't know.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah, it's like I said, I think it's because we're old.

[Casey O'Brien]

I mean, the concept of selling out that like, I would be fascinated to like hear K pop artists thoughts like the 90s idea of selling out. Like, that's not a concept that anyone can even. Does not exist nor have any understanding of anymore.

[Millie de Chirico]

I. I would, I would suggest, I would be, I would go so far as to suggest. I think most modern musicians who are in that level of the game are like, why would you deny yourself millions of dollars when you can just make a million dollars? You know what I mean?

[Casey O'Brien]

Totally.

[Millie de Chirico]

Why would you be withholding and have your hair in your eyes and turn your back to your audience as you noodle on your guitar when you can just talk to them over their iPhones and tell it. Tell them that you love them? Yeah, you know, I just, I. I think it's like a philosophical change that's happened in fandom in that way. And again, like, I have to catch myself because I. I'm so wary of it. I'm. And I don't know if it's because I. Like I said I came from punk rock or like I came from this other world. And trust me, like, when I was a kid, I loved big bands. I loved like Janet Jackson and Paul Abdul and MC Hammer and all that stuff. But it's like I just have this running, I don't know, mistrust of that in music and in movies and a lot of things where I'm just like the money thing, the capitalism thing is just always gonna eat at me a little bit. And so it feels a little weird, I mean, quite honestly. And, And I won't say, I mean, I won't say that I've made significant financial investments into this world. I mean, I've obviously gone to concerts, most of which were free, by the way. I am thankful that I've been able to go for free to some of these K pop shows. But I've purchased a couple of little figurines. Look at this fucking pillow I got in front of me.

[Casey O'Brien]

We've got Chucky, Chucky, yeah.

[Millie de Chirico]

So it's like, I. I have dropped a couple dimes on this stuff, but it's like, I know there are people out there who are spending significant amounts of money, especially on the concerts.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Millie de Chirico]

I mean, paying, like, thousands of dollars to see one concert and going to multiple dates, traveling, you know, it emerged. I mean, it's just kind of insane. And I just. I don't know. At a certain point, you're kind of like, wow, this is kind of nutty. But, you know, to the point of the movie, too. Now, I want to talk about this, because you. You brought this up before we recorded, which is that there's this runner. This kind of, like, running theme in the movie about how Huntrix never gets to take a vacation.

[Casey O'Brien]

This. Yes. This, like, really bothered me because there is sort of. And I think this is sort of wrapped up in what we're talking about in their, like. Like, relationship to work. And it's like, well, we don't need rest because we have work, and we love work because we love our fans. You know, it's like, kind of like, all wrapped up in one thing. But basically, the beginning of the movie, they're like, we're taking two weeks off. We can't wait to sit on the couch. And actually, when you Google this movie, this little banner runs across the top of Google, and it says, couch, couch, couch, couch. Because that's what happens in the movie. They're excited to take a vacation, and they are like, we're just gonna sit on the couch for two weeks. Meanwhile, Rumi, the leader, right as they're about to start, like, the first second of vacation, she presses the release button on their latest single, and their latest single goes out. And before they're even able to start vacation, they have to go back on tour or, like, do press for this latest single. And at first, you know, Zoe and Mira are, like, upset that they don't have vacation, but then they see one of their fans out in the world, and they're like, you know what? We don't need vacation. Let's go back to work. But if someone had done that to me, I would have literally, like, killed. I would have, like, murdered them. I. Can you imagine such a thing?

[Millie de Chirico]

Listen, especially now in my middle age, I'm like, no one is gonna stop me from that PTO ever.

[Casey O'Brien]

And then at that moment, I said, she is a demon for doing that. I wrote that in my notes, and guess what? It turns out she is part demon.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

But anyways, that's neither here nor there.

[Millie de Chirico]

That's neither here. Yeah, I. So I. I do like you believe it goes back to. And again, this is based on things and that I've read and sort of gleaned from listening to interviews with people who are in the K pop world and stuff. So, you know, very generally there is a trainee system at work when it comes to K pop, which is basically like, think about it like this. It's basically like, imagine the music industry in your country is essentially like camp, right? It's like Star Search camp camp or American Idol camp. And, you know, you're a young kid, you're, you know, maybe into singing and dancing. And then you're like, I want to become a K pop idol or something like that. So you hope to get signed up with an agency which is like, again, one of these, like big kind of corporations that are pumping out these K pop bands. Once you make it into that system, you're basically training every day, pretty much all day and all night, into things like dancing, singing. Fan service. They actually teach you fan service. They teach My dog is walking around. They teach you how to speak different languages because of course, like, you should know Japanese on top of Korean on top of English, on whatever, a little Spanish, perhaps a little French. You have to learn how to pretend to not have girlfriends and boyfriends and to not have a love life. And like, you're basically on diets and you're maybe getting a little plastic surgery. And it's. So it's this thing where you're. You become. And this is a trainee, mind you. This is not. You haven't even made it in the band yet. Okay, so then what happens is you get to a point where you're maybe like, I don't know, one of the best people in the camp. And. And then they will stick you or maybe like, try you out with different people. And then they kind of create a band with you. So you're like, hey, you know how to rap a little bit? Why don't you be in the rap line of this band? And then you're a team now. And then we're gonna. What they call, debut you and. Which is basically. They, you know, it's basically like you're coming out into polite society. It's your, like, cotillion or whatever. Yeah, yeah. And. And then from there it's like, like you get put into the system, which is that you're releasing singles, releasing videos, releasing concept photos and whatever the hell. And then it's like you're doing live streams on your platform. You're Doing, you know, fan signings, you're organizing shows, so you're just kind of put into this assembly line of things. And pretty much every band has it. Every band has it in their own, you know, specific ways. But, you know, it's pretty much the same vibe throughout every band. So to me, the idea that Huntrix gets no time off seems accurate. Like, it actually seems pretty accurate based on what I've read about K Pop fans, which is that they're basically working so hard that they're, like, not eating and they're, like, crying because they don't have a day off and.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah, but like, normally in the movies like this, it's like some manager is putting the force on them to make that happen. But in this movie, it's like, oh, we just can't help ourselves. We just have to work.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah. And I do feel like maybe that is. You do get indoctrinated into that line of thinking at some point. It's like, well, if we're gonna make it, if we're gonna. What is it? The Han Moon. So this concept, the Han Moon is.

[Casey O'Brien]

I didn't really want to get into this because I found this a little.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah, I did, too. I. I feel like the Han Moon is what, the. The essence of goodness or something? I don't know. I don't know what it is, to be honest. But, yeah. No. So, you know, I guess what I'm. What I mean about it is that, you know, they're basically like. They're so dedicated to this task that they're like, I don't even get to sit on a couch for more than five minutes before we have to go back to work.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Millie de Chirico]

And I feel like that is actually happening. Happening in actual K Pop, which is kind of. Kind of nutty, but, you know, it is what they do. So.

[Casey O'Brien]

Can I talk about just a few. Just maybe as we're sort of wrapping up this conversation, but just a few things that bothered. Not bothered me, but were kind of interesting watching this from a movie point of view. There has to be. They have to be setting up for a sequel. Right, Right. Oh, like, that was very clear in this.

[Millie de Chirico]

I mean, I think the Saja Boys are its own. They're gonna be like a Halloween costume like you wouldn't believe this year.

[Casey O'Brien]

Oh, yeah. But the end of the movie spoilers. Basically, Ginu and the Saja boys are sentenced to the demon realm forever. And they. We, like, don't get any resolution on that. It's like, oh, bye. They're in the. They're in hell. Okay. And we don't. Like. They don't escape that. But also, so many people are killed in this movie. And I was so certain at the end, when Huntrix was victorious that that would, like, release the souls of all these people and they would come back. No, they don't. They're Everyone. All these people that died are trapped in hell, I guess. So I found that kind of dark. And then apparently, Rumi is half demon because her dad is a demon. We never find any information about that whatsoever. Like, who is this guy?

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

That must be a sequel.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah, there's.

[Casey O'Brien]

Right.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah. Her parents generally are not in it. Right. Like.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yes.

[Millie de Chirico]

Because Celine. There's this character named Celine.

[Casey O'Brien]

Okay. Yes.

[Millie de Chirico]

Do you want to talk about Celine?

[Casey O'Brien]

Well, Celine is the one that, like, took her in and trained her to be a demon hunter and a pop star.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

But Selene is like, do not tell anyone you are a part demon, because you. You look like a freak. You are a freak. If you hide it, no one will ever know. And I was so certain at the end of the movie because the message at the end of the movie is like, be who you are. Be vulnerable. Your vulnerability is your strength. These are all great things. These are all great things. But Selene never comes back and is like, I was wrong. You were right. Which I thought was sort of odd.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah. Because her character was sort of the spiritual guide, guidance. I was just like, well, she sucks. What's. What's up?

[Casey O'Brien]

But it's like, I thought for sure she'd be like, I'm so sorry. You were right. I love you. No, the last thing we hear from her is like, do not tell people who you actually are, because you, a freak.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

And are gross, frankly. And I just thought that. So there were some, like, weirdly dark kind of things going on in this movie that I thought were kind of unresolved. And, like, Ginu, who is our lead hunk, our leader, he's in hell because he abandoned his sister and his mother. And I was like, yikes. I. I don't know. I was like, that's. That's a little bit of an insurmountable sin for me to, like, forgive this guy.

[Millie de Chirico]

I know.

[Casey O'Brien]

I got.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

I don't know. It was quickly forgiven by Rumi, but.

[Millie de Chirico]

I was like, you. Spoiler alert. I was like, he died, man. He fucking died. Like, he. Or he got sent back to hell. Hell. I don't know where the hell he went. He evaporated into nothing. And I was like, that's fucking crazy. But also, maybe he should have, because that is pretty bad. Your mom, your mama and your sister, while you were in the palace eating fucking kimbap and being all fancy while your mom and sister get killed, are.

[Casey O'Brien]

Dying in the streets.

[Millie de Chirico]

Damn.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah. And like, he's like, I abandoned them. And Rumi's like, that's okay. That's not you now. I was like, I don't know about that, girl.

[Millie de Chirico]

That's a red flag. That is a red flag, girl. Come on. What in the world? Oh, my God. Anything else about K Pop Demon Hunters? I feel like this was such an undertaking and I just have to thank you because I suggested it. And not just because of the K Pop thing, but just because it felt like such a huge current thing to talk about. You know what I mean?

[Casey O'Brien]

I was intimidated. It felt like I was taking a master's course or like there's a lot of study that is required. But I really liked this movie, really enjoyed it. And the songs are great. And, you know, if you're having to watch a movie 800 times with your kids, there are worse movies. I will say that.

[Millie de Chirico]

Well, let me ask you this. And I will say first off that Hunt Tricks. Some of these Hunt Tricks songs were actually done by this K pop girl group named Twice Place, who are an actual K pop group. Can you see yourself enjoying K pop at all after watching K pop Demon Hunters?

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah. I mean, we were talking about Fugazi earlier, so I have an affinity for that type of music. But I also. I love pop music.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah. Too.

[Casey O'Brien]

I saw Carly Rae Jepsen in concert. I've seen Ariana Grande in concert. So I'm not. I'm not immune to pop.

[Millie de Chirico]

I could see you being like a blackpink fan a blink.

[Casey O'Brien]

I like blackpink.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah, I could see that for you. I gotta say, now that I'm thinking about it, I really do think if I were to prescribe you a K Pop group that's currently out there, I would say you're a TXT guy.

[Casey O'Brien]

Okay.

[Millie de Chirico]

And I'll tell you why. Those are some sensitivos. There are some sweet little boys. Their songs are. Are really good. Like, their songs are like. They kind of remind me of like 80s songs. There's. There's something to them. They're songs that feel. And I realize that one or several people are writing all the songs for all these bands, but for some reason, their vibe is a little bit more sensitive. They don't really rap very much. They have great looks to them. They're kind of like, tall and lanky and they kind of have like a, A, a poetic looking vibe to them. And their songs are awesome. Like, they're kind of, they're. I think they are as close to indie rock songs as we're going to get in this world, I just have to say.

[Casey O'Brien]

Okay, okay.

[Millie de Chirico]

Look them up tomorrow by together.

[Casey O'Brien]

Oh, my God, Millie. What a combo. Thank you for guiding me. You're through this.

[Millie de Chirico]

You're so welcome. Thanks for being so game for this.

[Casey O'Brien]

All right, everybody, it's time for another installment of our segment called My Area of Expertise. And we have two experts on the show. Our new best friends in the entire world, Lizzie Bassett and Chris Winterbauer of the what Went Wrong podcast. Hi, guys. Thanks for being here. Hi.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Thank you for having us.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yes, it's our pleasure.

[Casey O'Brien]

So we wanted to bring you guys on to talk about an area of expertise, which is essentially your podcast. Give us a little description of your podcast and what your area of expertise is.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Sure. So as you may be able to tell by the title of our podcast, what Went Wrong details everything that can and does go wrong behind the scenes on movies. And we cover everything from the biggest blockbusters to the biggest box office bombs or big time floppers, as we like to call them. And it's really just, it's. It's. We're not here to shame any movies. We are here to celebrate the fact that movies get made, period. Because it is so incredibly difficult to make a movie and so much can go wrong. So that's what we explore.

[Casey O'Brien]

Where did this kind of start from? Did you guys both individually have kind of interest in movies that were disasters in the production or, like, how did that begin?

[Chris Winterbauer]

Well, I had. Lizzie comes from an acting background initially, and then she became a producer. And I think, Lizzie, you can tell me if I'm wrong, but you could see through your producing just all the random crap that could go wrong. And Lizzie worked for IMDb and doing their interview junkets, et cetera, and I'm sure got stories from folks that way. And then I was a film school douchebag who then had the opportunity to make a movie.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah, Millie and I are both film school douchebags too. Film school shitheads, as we sometimes refer to each other.

[Lizzie Bassett]

I'm so jealous. I'm an acting school shithead. The worst.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Level below. Yeah. And after I got my diploma, which has, you know, the douchebag title on it, I did. I had the opportunity to make a movie in 2018, 2019. And it was such a hard, emotionally hard, logistically hard. And it was a tiny movie. It was not hard by the standard of so many of the movies that we cover on our show. It was minuscule. But I really quickly realized I didn't know anything about making movies, about how hard it was to make a movie. And the minute it was done, I had such deep empathy for anybody who ever attempted to make anything. And I really came to believe that every movie, good and bad, it's a miracle anything ends up on the screen. And so Lizzie and I were, along with David, her husband, my best friend, were sitting outside the arc light at the Veggie Grill. Shout out.

[Casey O'Brien]

I know that Veggie Grill very well. Yeah.

[Chris Winterbauer]

And so the idea was like, hey, could we do a podcast that TR impress upon listeners how hard it is how hard people work to even make a bad movie at the end of the day?

[Lizzie Bassett]

Well, Chris, you're missing a key part of this story, which is that I believe, hadn't we just seen Cats or.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Were we were going to see Cats? We were Cats. We were. Everybody was. The entire world was collectively crapping on Cats. And I thought, I bet you Cats was really hard to make, and a lot of people worked really hard to make it. And that was true. And that became our first episode. Episode.

[Millie de Chirico]

I will. I will always, like, remember this. Cats was the last movie I saw before lockdown.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Same with.

[Casey O'Brien]

I think it was mine too, Millie.

[Millie de Chirico]

And I was terrified that I was. So I went to a rowdy screening of it at Album Traps.

[Casey O'Brien]

Maybe we were all in the same one.

[Millie de Chirico]

Honestly, at your rowdy screening, did they pass out bubbles? So there was a point where there were bubbles?

[Casey O'Brien]

No, I don't.

[Millie de Chirico]

I swear to you, I was convinced that I had. Was gonna catch COVID Like, when Covid happened, like, the next week, I was like, well, I was in that bubble room at Cats at the Aria, the Alamo Drafthouse in downtown la. I definitely have Covet. There's no way I don't have it right.

[Casey O'Brien]

It's a perfect, like, Covet distribution weapon.

[Millie de Chirico]

Exactly. Somehow, miraculously, it did not have Covid. But I will never forget Cats being that movie that I saw before Lockdown. So. But I have to say, I really like the attitude that you guys have about the movie these, because, you know, so many, like, other people or when you're dabbling in, you know, I don't know, cult cinema or, like, any kind of thing, when you're talking about movies that are maybe, like, not super successful, I guess is the better way to put it. There's just such A, like, a bratty attitude towards, like, making fun of it in that, like, you know, oh, we're, like, so high above this, like, piece of or whatever. So I like the idea that you're, like, like, coming at it from the angle of, well, you know, how hard it is to make a movie. It's, like, impossible to get things done. So we're just talking about it in that way. I don't know. I like. I like the angle is what I'm saying. It's really nice.

[Casey O'Brien]

Chris, as a filmmaker, does it make you feel good every time you hear something bad happen to these people making a movie? Or, like, do you take comfort in the fact you're like, it was so hard for me. It's so nice that it's like, like, that was normal.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I feel a camaraderie, and I don't want to overstate that. I don't. I'm not saying Steven Spielberg's my peer or anything, but I do.

[Casey O'Brien]

You can say that on this podcast.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I say that James Cameron is my peer. No, I do feel like when I've talked to a number of other people, some former film school classmates, just other people I connect with who have, you know, everybody, they've all directed their first movie or maybe their second movie, and we do kind of all feel like we're part of this club where we can commiserate a little bit. And we're like, like, you made it, dude. Like, whenever we watch each other's first movie, the first thing you say is just, you did it. Like, holy shit. It's kind of like when someone finishes a marathon, you're not going to be like, here's your time. You're going to give them a hug and you're going to say, that was incredible. You got to the finish line. Congratulations. And I definitely feel that. And I feel like when I watch movies now, even if I don't like the movie, I think, wow, how did they do that? That is so cool. Or, that was a really interesting decision. Or I wonder if that was a compromise, and I wonder what drove that compromise, as opposed to, this thing just didn't work for me, and I'm gonna leave it at that. So it's given me a deeper appreciation for movies, even the ones that I don't love, that we cover.

[Casey O'Brien]

Well, let's get into this a little bit. You guys have some examples of things that have gone wrong or some rules based on the craziest stories that you've heard that are sort of like, through lines for all these movies. Why don't you let us know what those are?

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah, I thought why don't we start in just really the worst place possible on maybe one of the most insane movies we've ever covered, which I unfortunately rewatched large parts of prior to this. And the rule, the movie, if you've never seen it before is, is Roar. And I can tell you a little bit about it, but if you haven't.

[Casey O'Brien]

Have you seen that, Millie?

[Millie de Chirico]

Oh, hell yes, I have.

[Casey O'Brien]

Did they program that on tcm?

[Millie de Chirico]

I have programmed it.

[Casey O'Brien]

You did?

[Millie de Chirico]

Personally, I'm the one that put it.

[Lizzie Bassett]

On that to people.

[Millie de Chirico]

It was a classic. What I thought other people may not have felt that way, but I'm just saying.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Well, I think the rule that we. Or the lesson we can take from Roar is Never film with 150 untrained lions and tigers, which is like a.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Subcategory under don't shoot with animals. Which is the classic rule that you hear in Dog.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Don't shoot with animals, but really don't do what they did.

[Casey O'Brien]

That's a good rule.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Let me. It's. It's not super widely seen or known for, I think, obvious reasons when you actually turn it on, but the tagline on it is a 1981 comedy, we'll put that in air quotes. And the tagline on IMDb is a naturalist living with big cats in East Africa expects a visit by his family of four from Chicago. A mix up leaves him searching for his family who have been left in the clutches of wild lions. However, if you are listening to this, you could stop the podcast. You can go to YouTube and you can watch literally any five minutes of this movie. That's all you need to see because the whole thing, I think Chris said this when we covered it. It is just 90 minutes of people actually being mauled by lions. There's no place plot whatsoever. It's just people moving from one room to the next trying to escape. Lions, tigers, elephants, people getting bitten on their hands, on their heads. People are bleeding left and right. I can give a little bit of background or.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah, Chris, really quickly before you do, it's. You're underselling how many animals are in this because I think people are going to think, oh, 150. That must be different scenes. If you've ever lifted a rock and seen like a swarm of bugs underneath, it looks like that, but with lions in a room, it's actually like just. It's horrifi. It's actually horrifying to think about. It's so terrifying when you actually watch it. Excuse me for interrupting, but I actually think you're underselling just how insane it is.

[Lizzie Bassett]

You're right. There should never be this many lions in one room. Nor should the lions be in a room in the first place. That's part of the problem. But so it stars Tippi Hedren and her then husband, Noel Martin Marshall. Spoiler alert, they do not stay married.

[Casey O'Brien]

And it doesn't have anything to do with a lion eating him?

[Lizzie Bassett]

No, he did not die by being mauled by a lion, which honestly is stunning when you watch this because he's just pissing these lions off for 90 minutes straight. It also stars her 19 year old daughter, Melanie Griffith, aka mother of Dakota Johnson, and also Noel Marshall's two kids. One of his kids said, fuck you, dad, I'm not filming with the lions. So kudos to that kid. Written and directed by Noel Marshall. And you guys will never guess this. This is his only writing, directing or acting credit. Don't know why. And I'll read you this as well. When it was re released by Drafthouse Films, the tagline it earned was no animals were harmed in the making of this film. 70 cast and crew members were. However, that appears to be an understatement. It is likely closer to 100 cast and crew in.

[Millie de Chirico]

Is it. Okay, so am I remembering this wrong or was this movie either inspired by or inspired the Tippi Hedren family to own their own lions? Isn't this like their passion was owning lions or something?

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yes. So there's an interesting background on this. And you might be referring to. There's a very famous Life magazine photo shoot that shows Tippi Hedren and a very young Melanie Griffith with a full size lion. You can look this up. It is wild. At the time it was purported that that was like their family pet who lived with them. That's not actually true. It was kind of a staged photo shoot to try and drum up support for this movie.

[Millie de Chirico]

Oh, I see.

[Lizzie Bassett]

They did. So basically what happened was she made the Birds with Alfred Hitchcock. Had a horrible time. He was extremely.

[Casey O'Brien]

Another movie where she's being attacked by animals.

[Lizzie Bassett]

She has a bad time with animals and she really loves them. Had a horrible time on that. And so she was really like coming out of a place of trauma. Basically when she and her at this point husband Noel Marshall go to Africa while she's filming another movie, they see a plantation overrun by lions. He remembers that Born Free, which is a movie about one lion, had come out recently. And so he's like I can make a bajillion dollars if I do a movie with a hundred lions. And so they talk to a bunch of trainers. The trainers are like, you cannot do this. And then one trainer is like, well, you could do it if you raise a couple of lion cubs together. That's the only way you can do this many in one scene. So, Millie, to your point, they did start taking in, I think, babies at the house. They did not have a full size lion there. And she actually regrets staging it that way because it makes it look like, oh, you could have, have a full size lion as a pet. You absolutely cannot.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah. No matter what people tell you. I, I swear every time I'm gonna reference Tick Tock a lot because it's the only place I get my news people when people on Tick Tock will show you that it's possible for you to like, just bring wild animals into your home and like, raise them as pets as babies. They'll be like, oh, we found this baby rhino or whatever. And then you're just like, well, now they're a part of the family. And I'm sitting here going, have none of you seen Roar? I mean, this is insane. Like, you can't just do this and promote that. It is a thing you can do to other, for other people to do. Right.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Although if you watch Roar, it is not going to make you want any of these animals as pets.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah, I'm surprised. Roar, like one minute. Roar clips haven't become a viral tik tok trend because they, I think if people saw them now, they would actually think they're AI because. Yeah, yeah, that doesn't look real too unreasonable.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah, well, so when they began filming, they had 132 big cats. Excuse me, one elephant, three sheep, as well as ostriches, flamingos, marabou storks, black swans, and many, many more. I have a tally of the injuries on set if you would like to hear them.

[Millie de Chirico]

Let's go.

[Lizzie Bassett]

All right, I'm ready.

[Chris Winterbauer]

It's gnarly.

[Lizzie Bassett]

It's bad. So Noel Marshall, he developed gangrene and he was bitten over 11 times, several of which he, you can see on screen. There's a part early on where the lion just fully bites through his hand and his hand is bleeding and he's like, you know, he's a horrible actor, but give him credit for staying in character the whole time. He just doesn't stop. It's really strange. Tippi Hedren did not make it out unscathed. She was picked up and had her leg crushed by the elephant, which she also developed gangrene from that. She was scratched on the arm by a leopard, bitten on the chest by a cougar. And in footage they were trying to shoot to actually promote the movie, a lion named Cherries bit her head. And she said she could hear the sound of its teeth scraping her skull.

[Millie de Chirico]

Wow.

[Casey O'Brien]

Golly. I mean, it still made the movie.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

It reminds me of Tiger King Shit.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Well, you got to get to Yonder, but I will.

[Lizzie Bassett]

He's coming later. So Melanie Griffith, as a reminder, Tippi Hedren's at this point, I believe, 19 year old daughter who had a burgeoning acting career for which I think you might need your face and both of your eyeballs, was attacked in the face by a lioness, which resulted in 50 stitches. They thought she was going to lose an eye and be permanently disfigured. She had to have reconstructive surgery after this.

[Casey O'Brien]

My God.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Both of his kids were also attacked. One of them was bitten on the back of the head by a lion. The other one was bitten in the thigh by a lion. However, as Chris pointed out, the most upsetting injuries belong to Jan De Bont, who you may know would go on to be the director of Twister. Speed many more things at this point. He was a cinematographer and he got scalped by cherries. Literally ripped his scalp off. 220 stitches. Yeah. And then the worst one, the poor assistant director suffered bites in the face, throat, chest, thigh, and almost had his ear ripped off. He needed four and a half hours of surgery after an attack.

[Casey O'Brien]

Oh, my God.

[Millie de Chirico]

We were just talking about ads, Casey. One of our most recent episodes. Poor ad.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah, the most thankless job. And then also you're getting mauled by a lion during it.

[Casey O'Brien]

Have you guys done Twister on the podcast yet? Yeah. Okay, cool. I know Jan De Bont was sort of responsible for something. Some behind the scenes man.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Well, if you've been scalped by a lion, maybe you have a higher threshold for.

[Chris Winterbauer]

I think. Yeah, I think that speaks to Lizzie. Kind of like the rule that kind of. The problem that extends from this rule that we've seen a lot on the podcast is when you. There's a temptation to want to be the good soldier on any movie set because there's so much money being spent. You know, you're spending, even on an independent film, you know, $100,000 a day. That would be a completely reasonable amount of money if you just amortize the. The budget across the shooting schedule. And so if you miss an hour. Right. That could be $10,000. And so there can be a temptation or a pressure if you're an actor or really anybody, director or below, to just want to go with whatever suggested, no matter what the safety precautions or lack thereof are. And if you are somebody who's shot with 132 big cats and been scalped and lived to tell the tale, you may have a different threshold for what you're comfortable with on set than a young actress like, you know, excuse me, Helen Hunt in Twister, or Bill Paxton, for that matter. And so there were injuries on the Twister set, and they were also dropping things from helicopters near the car. And the crew felt that the cast felt they were getting a little too close. And Jan's like, okay, let's all calm down. I got scalped by a lion. We don't need to worry about. About what's falling out of the helicopter. And Jandaban is a bit of a madman. I think you would gladly take that title or descriptor. And it's important on all of these film sets to have independent bodies who are responsible for the safety of all of your performers and all of your crew, because people have died on these movies, and no movie is worth somebody's life.

[Casey O'Brien]

You're so right, Chris, with the kind of good soldier attitude on a film set that's sort of ingrained back in our shithead film school days. That was like, a very much a big thing where it's like. It's a point of pride if you worked on a set for, like, 20 hours straight or you, like, haven't slept in four days or, like.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Which is so dangerous. I mean, people are killing people, falling asleep at the wheel, leaving movie sets. Like, it's not. It's not a cool thing.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah. It's not a badge of honor.

[Casey O'Brien]

It really is one of those things that I feel like needs to become un. Disentangled from making. Move the moviemaking process. Because it doesn't need to be like, that way.

[Lizzie Bassett]

It doesn't.

[Casey O'Brien]

You don't need to, like, die for your art or. And it doesn't mean you're not a real filmmaker if you're not, like, near death making it, you know, even though it always feels like that.

[Chris Winterbauer]

But, yeah, if you guys want to read a great book from a director who I think really understood that Sidney Lumet's making movies is.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yes, I have read that book. And I love how there's so much about his lunch routine.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah. And just driving to set, you know, and speaking with the actors, and they worked hard. It was a hard. I don't think he was an easy director. He worked people hard. But it was reasonable and there were expectations. There was an understanding that it's a collaborative medium. And I admire him greatly as a director. And it's a wonderful book. If you guys are interested in movies and the process of making movies and what it is to be a director.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah, absolutely. Great book. Do you guys want to move on to another? This is fascinating about Roar. I feel like we could keep.

[Chris Winterbauer]

If you guys are interested in more animal nonsense. Dr. Dolittle, the Rex Harrison one, is another great example. The favorite.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Also a terrible movie.

[Chris Winterbauer]

It's a.

[Casey O'Brien]

That is a bad movie. I have seen that. Yeah, it's.

[Chris Winterbauer]

It. It's not the greatest. No, it's not great. It's pretty slow.

[Lizzie Bassett]

You know, it's bad.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah. But a draft did step on its own penis, and they had to shut down production as a result. They. And again, again, they used, like, 1200 animals in that movie. Not all big cats. Much better. It seems like, in terms of safety, but it's just shooting with animals is such a nightmare. They had to build all the sets on a slight slant so that the pee and the poo would just run off the set by the end of the day. And, like, the trainers were getting hepatitis. All the goats were kicking holes in the walls. Just don't shoot with animals if you can avoid it, you know, or CGI them if possible. Yeah, but, Lizzie, please, this is a good one.

[Lizzie Bassett]

So never try to change your whole movie in the edit. You know, there's always the common adage of we'll fix it in post, but there are some things you cannot fix in post. And the example I would like to bring to you today is Gigli, which is widely regarded as, you know, allegedly one of the worst movies ever made. We don't agree. It's not good. It's certainly not the worst movie we've ever seen. For the podcast, as we just mentioned, Dr. Dolittle with Rex Harrison is way worse than Gigli. There's many more, but for anybody who doesn't know, this came out in 2003. It starred, famously, Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck. This was the inception of Bennifer, which we'll see was actually the demise of Gigli. It also has Justin Bartha, Christopher Walken, and Al Pacino. Have you guys ever seen this?

[Casey O'Brien]

I have not.

[Millie de Chirico]

Neither have I. Oh.

[Casey O'Brien]

I feel like we're still feeling the reverberation inspirations of Benefer. To this day.

[Lizzie Bassett]

You are.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah. And I. The only reason why I actually want to see it. Well, I mean, just because it's a. I always want to watch anything that is gonna, like, is a topic of conversation amongst, like, film people. But, you know, I kept. I. We did an episode of my last podcast about Midnight Run, and I did a lot of research on Martin Breast, who directed Gigli, and basically, like, he had had this amazing career. I mean, he did like, Beverly Hills Cop and Midnight Run, which is a masterpiece. And then he did Gigli, and then basically was like, oh, I guess I'm gonna have to leave Hollywood and be a hermit. Like, it drove him away from movies. And I was like, really? Is it that bad? Like, do we overblow this thing? It's like this guy's like J.D. salinger now because of this thing. So I don't know. I. I want to see it because I want to be like, was it enough to make a man, like, disappear? Or could we have led him working? Yeah.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Did somebody needs cease to exist because of this movie?

[Lizzie Bassett]

He's an amazing writer and director to. Your Midnight Run is wonderful. Also, you mentioned Scent of a Woman is what came out.

[Millie de Chirico]

Of course.

[Chris Winterbauer]

And as Lizzie knows my secret favorite movie, Meet Joe Black, which nobody agrees with me. You're the only one. I'm the only one. And I can watch Brad Pitt do a bad patois accent all day long. I love that movie. But he's a wonderful director.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah, I know. I really wish he would come back. But so to your point, like, does this movie deserve the derision that it has gotten? Maybe not, but it is a mess. It's not good. And so what happened was, you may remember the trailers for this movie. They were pitching it. Well, what do you remember about seeing any trailers for this movie? What did it look like to you?

[Casey O'Brien]

See, I kind of get this one intertwined with, like, Jersey Girl.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Okay, but that's a good point.

[Lizzie Bassett]

That's a good point. So what genre would you qualify those as?

[Casey O'Brien]

I thought they were both sort of romantic comedies.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Bingo. Oh, bingo. Okay, There you go. So, absolutely, it was marketed as a rom com. However, it was written, shot, and originally edited as a gritty mob drama. Adam Brody actually auditioned for the part that Justin Bartha eventually got, and he said he remembered really liking the script. He didn't understand when the movie came out and it had done so badly, and he really liked the ending where the main character died. That does not happen in the movie that was released. So what happened was, as soon as Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez met each other on set. They fell in love. Sparks were a fly in can't keep their hands off of each other. She had just married her second husband. Don't worry about that. They're gonna get divorced. Not a big deal. But they get together essentially right away. And to be fair to her, I think she did separate from her husband basically immediately. Immediately. But so principal photography on the film as shot, Remember, not a rom com wrapped in March of 2002, and by June of 2002, she has officially filed for divorce from her husband, and she has gone public with Ben Affleck. And what do you remember about them getting together?

[Casey O'Brien]

I remember the Don't Be Fools by the Rock Jenny from the Block video.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yes, the video.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah. Yes.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Do you remember that, Millie?

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes, I do. I'm like, casey, damn, you got a razor sharp memory for Bennifer.

[Casey O'Brien]

I was very locked into pop culture at the time. I mean, this was my peak MTV and VH1 consumption.

[Millie de Chirico]

True.

[Casey O'Brien]

During this time.

[Lizzie Bassett]

For anybody that doesn't remember this video, after they come out together, it's like a huge deal. Everybody's like, oh, my God, this is Hollywood's biggest power couple. And then they appear together in the video for Jenny from the Block. And I don't know if you've watched this in years. It is wild. It is like, it's cringe city. And, you know, God bless them, do whatever you want to do, but it's sort of too much. And I think that's kind of what starts to happen, is they're way overexposed. So the budget for Zhili was massive to begin with because of the cost of Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck, it was over $50 million. And early test screenings, they're not great. They're not horrible, but people didn't really get it. So the producer gets really nervous. There's a guy named Joe Roth, and he's like, I know what I'm gonna do to make this money, make this movie, make all the money in the world. I'm gonna make it a rom com about Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez. And of course, the problem was that it was not written or shot as a rom com. Also, her character is a lesbian.

[Casey O'Brien]

Oh, I didn't know that. She's gay. She's gay.

[Lizzie Bassett]

So they had to, like, retcon the whole movie around the fact that she's still a lesbian in the movie, but somehow she falls in love with and literally drives off into the sunset with Ben Affleck. By the end of Jean.

[Chris Winterbauer]

And there's, like, sex scenes written as, like, a joke on the fact that, like, in the original movie, she sleeps with Ben Affleck not because she's attracted to him, but because she's performing a role. Right. She's effectively taken on a different identity. And so she does it to stay in this identity. And it's like, so the way she seduces him is written comedically. Like he's really into her, and she says gobble, gobble, as, like, a way to get him to come and perform cunnilingus. Sorry, Trigger warning for any younger listeners on her. And it's hilarious. But then it's supposed to be, like, this transformative experience, and they actually fall in love, which makes no sense at all.

[Casey O'Brien]

Like, because he turned her out is what you're saying.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Exactly. That's what they're trying suggest. Or they, like, kind of maybe suggest that she's. I feel like they tried to retcon. She's bisexual. Lizzie, if I'm remembering correctly, a little.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Bit in there, kind of shoehorn that in there. But very much this is like. This is an I turned her situation, which is like, which affleck is now.

[Chris Winterbauer]

2 for 2 after what, chasing Amy.

[Casey O'Brien]

I was gonna just say that there's another film that comes to mind, but.

[Lizzie Bassett]

This one was not his fault.

[Chris Winterbauer]

No, it's totally not Affleck's fault. I don't think he wanted to do any of this.

[Lizzie Bassett]

No, I don't think either of them did. And so the producer, basically, even though Martin Breast had final cut, he forced them to do, like, weeks of reshoots that ballooned the budget up to $75 million. Because he's like, it's fine. I'm going to get my return on investment. They're the hottest thing ever. But then by the time Zeely came out, the worm had really turned on Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez. They were so overexposed. So when this comes out, it was a certified stinker. It made $7 million worldwide. It's one of the least. 7 million.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah. Against 70.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Against 70.

[Chris Winterbauer]

With two of the biggest young stars. Anne Pacino has the cameo, as you mentioned.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Lizzie and Christopher Walken. Yeah.

[Chris Winterbauer]

And Walken's role got cut really short because of the rework.

[Lizzie Bassett]

He was supposed to die, I think.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah. And he's like, a much bigger part, and they just kind of trimmed him out entirely. And of course, what we learned recently. Lizzie, did you see this? Seth Rogen also auditioned for the role that went to Justin Bartha. And he basically said, if anybody has that videotape, please burn it, because he's doing a disabled person. Like, he's doing a mentally handicapped person impression as the role.

[Lizzie Bassett]

And he really land great in the movie either.

[Chris Winterbauer]

No. And he said at the time, it was like, this is Oscar bait. I'm gonna win an Oscar for this. This is my Rain Man. That's really what everybody thought auditioning for this movie. And I think this is around the time of I Am Sam. Also, I think we'd finally started to see, hey, maybe we shouldn't have actors chase glory. And then we get the Simple Jack in Tropic Thunder a few years later.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yes.

[Lizzie Bassett]

What's really crazy timing wise is that one month after this movie came out, and I believe three days before their wedding, Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez broke up, citing excessive media attention. And obviously, of course, that happens again.

[Casey O'Brien]

I didn't know that was a box you could check on a divorce form. I was gonna say that's.

[Millie de Chirico]

That's the reason why I left my last husband is because he had excessive media attention.

[Lizzie Bassett]

I will say when I was researching this one, when we did the episode on it, when I went back and actually looked at, like, the headlines and the way that they were being treated. Treated. It was bad. Like, in particular, Jennifer. The jokes at Jennifer Lopez's expense about, like, her ethnicity, among other things, were terrible.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yeah. What is it? 2003. Is that when this year?

[Lizzie Bassett]

2003.

[Millie de Chirico]

I always say the early 2000s was a low point for feminism and for a lot of things, but especially if you were a woman in media was terrible for you.

[Casey O'Brien]

So.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah, makes sense. Well, that's. That's Gilee for you.

[Casey O'Brien]

Amazing.

[Millie de Chirico]

I'm watching it. You should do an episode about.

[Chris Winterbauer]

We should totally do an episode about it.

[Millie de Chirico]

I think they should.

[Chris Winterbauer]

There are some other ones we haven't gotten to, like. World War Z has a famous reshoot. Very drastic reshoot. The entire third act is completely replaced, and the director and Brad Pitt and the studio were kind of all at odds. And J. Excuse me. The creator of Lost, Not Abrams, the writer.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Damon Lindelof.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Damon Lindelof was brought in. Thank you, Lizzie. To do the big third act rewrite. So that's another one. And there are all these examples of, like, you kind of end the day with the movie that you have. And it can be tempting to think, oh, but there's this other version that's right there. It's a lot further than it looks, I think is the thing that we've Learned. And it's really hard to. You know, it's that Jack Donaghy, 30 Rock. He's trying to create a new microwave oven technology, and then he's reinvented the Ford Pinto. By the end of the night. You kind of end with a Frankenstein no matter what.

[Casey O'Brien]

I think it's really hard to adjust tone, too. You might be able to cut things out or streamline things, but it still needs to stay in the same genre. It seems like Gigli was trying to genre jump, which feels like. That feels impossible.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yeah, there's no way it was gonna work. It didn't make any sense. And I feel horrible for Martin Brest. To your point, Millie, he. This was his worst nightmare, and it literally made him stop making movies. And that's an incredibly talented person who did not deserve the title of director of the worst movie ever made. It's not.

[Chris Winterbauer]

But, Lizzy, you made this point in the episode. It made Ben Affleck make movies.

[Lizzie Bassett]

That's true. It made him become a director. And I think he's a really good director.

[Chris Winterbauer]

He decided to become a director or he decided to start directing because he realized the only way I'm gonna be able to have any control in this business is if I direct and I control the material that I. And part of that was he really admired Martin Brest. He's talked about it a lot, and he saw what was done to him, and he said, you know, as an actor, I couldn't do anything, and I can't do anything with how my performance has changed or how the movie around me has changed. And I think that's something that people should always remember, too, when thinking about somebody's performance is, at the end of the day, the takes that are selected and the direction that was given on the day, those were not up to that actor. You know, so much is out, you know, beyond the actor's control. And a lot of animals, like, I've had, you know, on set, had actors question, you know, hey, what do you. You know, are you sure about this? And is this going to fit in with the broader story? And I say, shut up. Shut up, Ben. To reference the Michael Bay. Michael Bay Armageddon video. But no, it's a leap of faith that actors have to do in trusting the people around them.

[Casey O'Brien]

We just talked about Showgirls. Elizabeth Berkley's performance is so wild.

[Chris Winterbauer]

But that's Verhoeven wanted.

[Casey O'Brien]

That's what Paul Verhoe and Paul Verhoeven said. Like, I asked for that. It's my fault. Like, if you're going to blame somebody, blame me.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Nobody.

[Casey O'Brien]

Elizabeth. Yep, nobody does.

[Lizzie Bassett]

This is sweet. I guess we can end Gili on this. I'm pretty sure Ben Affleck thanked Martin Brest in the When Argo won the Academy Award.

[Millie de Chirico]

Oh, that's. Oh, really?

[Casey O'Brien]

Oh, that is nice.

[Lizzie Bassett]

I think so.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure you played that clip when we were doing.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Very sweet.

[Casey O'Brien]

Well, thank you guys so much for coming on our show and talking about what went wrong on all these movies. Those fabulous.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Everything goes wrong. That's the real lesson. Everything goes wrong.

[Casey O'Brien]

Well, where can they find your podcast? Where can they find you guys? Anything else you want to plug, Lizzy?

[Lizzie Bassett]

No, you can find our podcast, really, anywhere you listen to podcasts, Give us a follow. You can find us on Instagram at what Went Wrong pod? Chris, what Went Wrong pod?

[Chris Winterbauer]

Chris, what Went Wrong pod? Yep.

[Lizzie Bassett]

What Went Wrong podcast. You can follow us there. We post little reels so you can see snippets of these. And we also have our first live show coming up on October 8th, so you can also buy a ticket to that. We have no idea what we're doing.

[Chris Winterbauer]

In New York, to be clear.

[Lizzie Bassett]

In New York. Yeah.

[Chris Winterbauer]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

Cool. That'll be awesome. What's the venue?

[Chris Winterbauer]

The caveat? Manhattan. It is a small theater just inside Manhattan by the Brooklyn Bridge.

[Millie de Chirico]

Rich.

[Chris Winterbauer]

So cool. Come check us out.

[Casey O'Brien]

Amazing. Well, thank you guys so much. This was great.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Thank you all for having us.

[Casey O'Brien]

Oh, my gosh, it was great talking to our new friends Chris and Lizzy about the things that went wrong in the movies. Check out what Went Wrong podcast. We'll be on there talking about Fitzcarraldo. Yeah, it was fun.

[Millie de Chirico]

It was fun. It's fun to think about these types of movies and the way that they think about them. Right.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah. I find it inspiring, too, as a filmmaker.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes.

[Casey O'Brien]

To just think how things really do go wrong on every movie. Movie. And so I don't feel as bad when things went wrong on my movies. Yeah, of course. Or any creative pursuit, really. Like this podcast. Things have gone wrong.

[Millie de Chirico]

I would say every episode. And I would say it's my fault.

[Casey O'Brien]

Things have gone really wrong. It's been a disaster every episode, and yet one gets published every week, so.

[Millie de Chirico]

So.

[Casey O'Brien]

Millie, it's time for employees picks where we recommend a movie kind of based on the theme of what we talked about us this episode. And there's a lot of different directions, a lot of demon stuff. You know, we can cover K pop pop artists, you know, but do you have a. Do you have a staff wreck employees picks.

[Millie de Chirico]

I do, in fact, and I'm. I don't have to. I have to put this out there. I have not actually seen it, so I would recommend it for both myself and everybody else to watch together, perhaps. So I was thinking about, you know, what branch off this tree we could climb onto, you know? And when I saw K Pop Demon Hunters, like, for the first, like, five, ten minutes, I was making all these. These, like, connections in my head. I was like, oh, this feels very Powerpuff Girls. It also feels very much like an animated series that I enjoyed so much when I was a child. That was called Gem. It was made in, like, 1985. This was.

[Casey O'Brien]

And the holograms you're talking about.

[Millie de Chirico]

Oh, and the holograms. Yeah. This show was formative for me. I was obsessed with it. I used to get into fights about it. In my elementary school, I made a girl miss the bus because she was crying so hard that. Because I was like. We had to, like, say, hey, what Gem and the Holograms character are you going to be today? And I insisted that I was Kimber that day, and she wanted to be Kimber. And I told her. I told her, no. I said, no, you. You can't be Kimber, because I'm Kimber today. And she cried so hard that she missed the bus, and my mom had to drive her to school and yelled at me when I got home. So this is the reason why it reminds me of Jem a little bit, is because, like, K Pop Demon Hunters, the lead singer of Jem and the Holograms, Jem has this double identity. She's Jerrica Benton, who is like a, you know, a rich lady that owns an orphanage and a record label. But it's kind of that whole, like, she has a secret, and she's kind of going back and forth between her two identities, which feels very much like K Pop Demon Hunters. Right. So I won't suggest the show because it's a cartoon from the 80s. I will suggest that we all watch the 2015 film, which I believe is live action action, called Jim and the Holograms. And it was directed by John M. Chu, who, by the way, has made some of the most famous movies of all time at this point. I knew John M. Chu because he made the Step up movies. Made a couple of Step Up Step up movies, but he directed Wicked Crazy Rich Asians. I mean, he is popping at this point. Yeah, but. Yeah. So I don't think. Think Gem and the holograms from 2015 was warmly received by audiences or critics. But hey, who knows?

[Casey O'Brien]

Who knows?

[Millie de Chirico]

Maybe we should watch it together, see and see what's up. So.

[Casey O'Brien]

Sure.

[Millie de Chirico]

That's my wreck.

[Casey O'Brien]

Cool. So my mom was on this episode, if you remember, at the top of the show.

[Millie de Chirico]

I do.

[Casey O'Brien]

And also it was just Labor Day. And so I'm recommending my mom's favorite movie, which takes place Labor Day weekend. It's called picnic from 1955.

[Millie de Chirico]

That's your mom's favorite movie?

[Casey O'Brien]

That's my mom's favorite movie of all time.

[Millie de Chirico]

Is. Is that why she. Her area of expertise is older actors that should not have their shirts off. Because I feel like William Holden has his shirt off in that entire movie.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah. And William Holden is supposed to play like a 25 year old and he looks conservatively 52 years old in that movie. And I believe Kim Novak is actually like a teenager while making this movie. So I will say that the, you know, the age differences is noticeable.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes.

[Casey O'Brien]

But it's a steamy, sexy movie and it takes place at a Labor Day carnival in a small town. Town in Kansas, I believe. And it's just a really good melodrama and it looks great. And yeah, that's a picnic.

[Millie de Chirico]

Wow, your mom is awesome. Dude, your mom is so awesome.

[Casey O'Brien]

Thank you.

[Millie de Chirico]

I feel like she should host this podcast with you instead of me kick you out. Right? Is there a mother and son podcast out there? That would be so cute. A mother and son film podcast.

[Casey O'Brien]

That would be cute.

[Millie de Chirico]

So cute.

[Casey O'Brien]

I don't. Yeah, well, let's. Let's offline this. We'll discuss more. Thank you to my mom for coming on the show. Thank you to Chris and Lizzie for coming on the show.

[Millie de Chirico]

Thank you.

[Casey O'Brien]

Thank you to Millie for guiding us through the K pop jungle.

[Millie de Chirico]

And thank you to Casey for not stopping midway and being like, this sucks.

[Casey O'Brien]

I'm sorry, this sucks. No, I thought it was great.

[Millie de Chirico]

Well, on that note, if you. And I only mean if you want to email us for pretty much any reason at all, you can email us at. Dear moviesxactlyratemedia.com Usually we do stuff like film advice. We do film gripes, consensual film gropes, film regrets. If you have any of those things or if you want to talk about anything that we talked about today on our episode, you can email us. And here's the tea if you want to. You can leave us a voicemail too. All you have to do is record it on your phone, make sure it's under a minute, and email it to dearmovies at exactly Right, Media.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah. Recently, Millie and I were complaining about how much we hate ourselves and how much we suck and wish we had different voices, personalities, hair, you know, all sorts of things. And we got a lot of nice compliments from people that really gassed us up and it felt great. So if you want to send any more of those to the email, feel free.

[Millie de Chirico]

We are asking you for compliments. We are asking for you to call us hot and attractive. Attractive.

[Casey O'Brien]

Wasn't it nice, though, Millie? It made me feel really good.

[Millie de Chirico]

I was like, cool, Maybe I won't be alone forever. I'll just make our fans date us and fall in love with us.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, the. The K Pop artists do have maybe the right idea. We need to change our relationship with our listeners. We need to, like, have fan service.

[Millie de Chirico]

Oh, my God, K. Casey, you would be so good at fan service. You'd be like, hi, baby. I love you, Finger heart.

[Lizzie Bassett]

Yes.

[Millie de Chirico]

You're my wife. You're my darling. Oh, my God. You'd be so good.

[Casey O'Brien]

That's sickening. That's sickening. Jesus. So if you are like we said earlier, a and fault and like our show, follow us on our socials at Dear Movies, I love you on Instagram and Facebook. Facebook. Our letterboxd handles are Casey Lee O' Brien and mDecherico. I've been getting a lot of letterboxd followers lately. I wonder if it's because of the show. I like when people follow me.

[Millie de Chirico]

I do, too.

[Casey O'Brien]

I like when people leave little comments on my little reviews on letterboxd. Makes me happy.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes, I do too.

[Casey O'Brien]

So listen to Dear Movies. I love you on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And hey, rate and review our show. Show positively preferred. If they. If you hear this, you're like, I should go rate and review the show and then leave a negative review. I don't understand you as a person, but, you know, I don't even want.

[Millie de Chirico]

The word negative reviews in the conversation whatsoever.

[Casey O'Brien]

I shouldn't have even brought it in into this sphere.

[Millie de Chirico]

Don't invoke it, Millie.

[Casey O'Brien]

I shouldn't evoke it. I should get my mom to come back and to bless the podcast again. Millie Hughes. Huge episode. Our next episode is one I'm excited for.

[Millie de Chirico]

Oh, me too. This is one of my favorite movies, and I'm glad we're gonna talk about it. We're gonna talk about a movie that was directed by a Filipino director named Lino Broca, and it's a movie from 1975 called Manila in the Claws of Light. And it's a little intense. It's on Criterion Channel. If anybody wants to watch, watch it. But it's. Yeah, I think it's a really interesting movie. And I'd like to talk about Leno Broca as a director because we don't really talk much about Filipino cinema. Really?

[Casey O'Brien]

No, I'm really excited to talk about this movie. I mean, I have a very deep connection to people who are Filipino. You are Filipino? Yes, My wife is Filipino.

[Millie de Chirico]

That's right.

[Casey O'Brien]

And my daughter is Filipino. That's right. I'm really. And I don't feel like Filipino cinema gets. There's not much conversation around it.

[Millie de Chirico]

That's right.

[Casey O'Brien]

And so I'm really excited to dive into this movie. I've never seen this. I've never seen anything by him, so I'm thrilled. I think this is great.

[Millie de Chirico]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Well, again, great week. Thanks to everybody who's listened, who has been blessed by Casey's movie mom. Go forth in the world. Yes, go forth in the world knowing that the animal doll will not haunt you in any way. And we'll see you next week.

[Casey O'Brien]

Alrighty. Bye.

[Millie de Chirico]

Bye. Bye. This has been an exactly right production. Hosted by me, Millie de Chericho and produced by my co host, Casey o'. Brien.

[Casey O'Brien]

This episode was mixed by Tom Bryfogel. Our associate producer is Christine Christina Chamberlain. Our guest booker is Patrick Cotner and our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

[Millie de Chirico]

Our incredible theme music is by the best band in the entire world, the Softies.

[Casey O'Brien]

Thank you to our executive producers Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, Daniel Kramer and Millie Ducherico. We love you. Goodbye.

[Millie de Chirico]

Be kind.

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[Chris Winterbauer]

The day begins at the Chase Sapphire Lounge by the club at Boston Logan Airport. You get the clam chowder In San Diego, it's Tostadas New York Espresso Martini. It's 10:00am why not? It's the quiet before your next flight. The shower that resets your day, the menu that lets you know where you are. This is access to over 1300 airport lounges and every Sapphire Lounge by the club. And one card that gets you in Chase Sapphire Reserve the most rewarding card. Learn [e-mail] Sapphire Reserve cards issued by.

[Millie de Chirico]

JP Morgan, Chase bank and a member.

[Chris Winterbauer]

FDIC, subject to credit approval.