Manic Pixie Dream Girls & Garden State (2004)

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Manic Pixie Dream Girls & Garden State (2004)"

Dear Movies, I Love You is a heartfelt exploration of cinema through the lenses of Millie De Chirico and Casey O'Brien, hosted by Exactly Right Media. In the episode titled "Manic Pixie Dream Girls & Garden State (2004)," released on February 4, 2025, the hosts delve into the enduring impact of the film Garden State and the problematic trope of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl (MPDG).

---

1. Opening Conversations and Cinematic Tastes

The episode begins with Millie and Casey engaging in light-hearted banter about their mutual excitement for the episode. They swiftly transition into discussing their cinematic preferences and pet peeves.

Millie (00:50):
"We're going to get really sensitive today because we're talking about a film that is very meaningful to me. It's called Garden State. And we're also going to touch upon a little thing called the Manic Pixie Dream Girl, which I have a lot to say."

Casey (03:08):
"I feel like I'm gonna be struck dead in the art house world for saying something like this. But when people are like, I love Godard, sure. I find that. I'm like, shut the fuck up. His movies are boring and they suck."
(Timestamp: 03:08)

2. Critique of A24 and Art House Cinema

The hosts express their frustrations with the burgeoning influence of A24 in the film industry, criticizing its branded approach and perceived narrow focus.

Millie (04:15):
"I've met people who only watch A24 movies and pretty much nothing else. It feels very kind of modern capitalism in a way to be like, I only watch movies from this one production company."
(Timestamp: 04:15)

Casey (04:31):
"A24 is becoming that. There's a film fandom there that is becoming nasty. It's growing."
(Timestamp: 04:31)

3. Film Diaries: Recent Watches

Millie and Casey share their recent film viewings, offering reviews and personal anecdotes.

• Millie’s Picks:
  • Anora by Sean Baker
  • Pumping Iron to the Women
  • Documentary on Merchant Ivory
  • Obsessed starring Beyoncé

Millie (09:21):
"Pumping Iron to the Women is better than Pumping Iron. The whole Simon Rex phenomenon is fascinating."
(Timestamp: 10:10)

• Casey’s Picks:
  • Wishmaster (1997)
  • The Substance
  • Orange County
  • Trust by Hal Hartley

Casey (19:21):
"I watched Trust and reached out to Hal Hartley for support while making my own independent film. He wrote me back with a very thoughtful email."
(Timestamp: 70:55)

4. Deep Dive: Garden State and the MPDG Trope

The core of the episode revolves around an in-depth analysis of Garden State and its role in popularizing the MPDG trope.

Casey (21:56):
"This movie hit me right at the right time. It became such an important part of my life. I even wrote a play inspired by it in high school."
(Timestamp: 21:56)

Millie (26:00):
"I had the complete opposite reaction when this movie came out. I saw it as sus. Zach Braff being in his underwear throughout the movie instantly made me question the film's intentions."
(Timestamp: 26:00)

The hosts discuss how Garden State solidified the MPDG trope, critiquing the one-dimensional portrayal of female characters who primarily serve to catalyze the male protagonist's emotional growth.

Millie (33:27):
"I want boys to be sensitive, but the MPDG archetype doesn't feel real. It's like a product of a man's brain, serving the male character's journey without giving the female character any substantial development."
(Timestamp: 33:27)

Casey (35:08):
"It's not inherently bad to have quirky, loud female characters, but when they're solely there to help the male lead, it lacks depth."
(Timestamp: 35:08)

5. Sensitive Boys Quiz: A Fun Challenge

Millie introduces a game segment where Casey identifies movies based on synopses focused on "sensitive boys."

Millie (56:35):
"A group of thoughtful young men at a prep school create a secret club inspired by their favorite teacher, exploring writing and poetry."
(Timestamp: 56:35)

Casey:
"Dead Poets Society, correct?"
(Timestamp: 56:52)

The five questions cover iconic films such as Dead Poets Society, Jerry Maguire, Stand By Me, Goodwill Hunting, and Say Anything, with Casey acertaining each answer with enthusiasm.

6. Movie Recommendations: Psycho and Hal Hartley

Millie recommends the classic Psycho (1960) as a must-watch for fans interested in complex character studies.

Millie (66:37):
"Recommending Psycho is like recommending that you drink water every day. It's a classic for a reason."
(Timestamp: 66:37)

Casey (70:05):
"Hal Hartley is my 'sensitive boy king.' His film Trust is a great example of his indie craftsmanship."
(Timestamp: 70:05)

Millie praises Psycho for its deep character exploration and the lasting legacy of Anthony Perkins, while Casey highlights Hal Hartley's contributions to indie cinema and his personal connection with the filmmaker.

7. Conclusion and Listener Engagement

The episode wraps up with the hosts encouraging listeners to engage via email and social media, hinting at future segments like film advice mailbags.

Millie (73:02):
"If you need movie advice or have a film gripe, email us at [e-mail]."
(Timestamp: 73:02)

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Millie on A24:
  "It has become such a branded thing where people are really only kind of focusing on that and not watching other people's movies."
  (04:15)

• Casey on Godard:
  "His movies are boring and they suck."
  (03:46)

• Millie on Garden State Impact:
  "This movie hit me right at the right time. It became such an important part of my life."
  (21:56)

• Millie on MPDG Archetype:
  "It's like a sensitive boy's projection of who he thinks is going to come into his life."
  (34:18)

• Millie on Psycho

  "Recommending Psycho is like recommending that you drink water every day. It's a classic for a reason."
  (66:37)

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Key Insights and Conclusions

• Evolution of Film Tropes: Millie and Casey critically examine how Garden State played a pivotal role in cementing the MPDG trope, which often sidelines female characters in favor of serving male protagonists' emotional arcs.

• Personal Connections to Cinema: Both hosts share how certain films have shaped their personal and professional lives, illustrating the profound impact cinema can have.

• Critique of Modern Art House Movements: The hosts express concern over the homogenization of film preferences, particularly criticizing the dominant influence of A24 and its effect on diverse cinematic exploration.

• Aging and Film Perception: They discuss how their perceptions of certain films have evolved over time, reflecting on how personal growth and changes in life circumstances can alter one's relationship with beloved media.

• Support for Indie Filmmakers: Through recommendations and personal anecdotes, Millie and Casey highlight the importance of supporting independent filmmakers like Hal Hartley, emphasizing the value of authentic and diverse storytelling.

---

Final Thoughts

This episode of Dear Movies, I Love You offers a rich blend of personal anecdotes, critical analysis, and interactive fun. Millie De Chirico and Casey O'Brien provide insightful commentary on Garden State and the Manic Pixie Dream Girl trope, while also engaging listeners with their film diaries and quiz segments. Their balanced approach ensures that both avid film enthusiasts and casual listeners find value and entertainment in their discussions.

For more engaging conversations and film recommendations, follow Dear Movies, I Love You on Instagram @dearmoviesiloveyou.

Transcript

[A]

This episode is brought to you by Paramount. Gladiator 2 is now streaming on Paramount. Rated R. Years after the death of Maximus, Lucius is forced into the Coliseum after his home is conquered by tyrannical twin Roman emperors. With the future of the empire at stake, he must find strength and honor to return the glory of Rome to its people. Gladiator 2 now streaming on paramountplus.com Yo, Casey.

[B]

Hi, Millie.

[A]

How's it going?

[B]

Fine. It's going. Actually, it's going great because we're about to do an amazing podcast together again. Yeah, it's a. It's a thrilling day.

[A]

It is. So we're gonna do another round of our film diary, because I know you all want to know.

[B]

And yes, we're gonna get really sensitive today because we're talking about a film that is very meaningful to me. It's called Garden State. And we're also going to touch upon a little thing called the Manic Pixie Dream Girl, which I have a lot to say.

[A]

I'm sure you do. I have quite a bit to say as well. And then because we're going to be talking about some sensitivos, I've prepared a wonderful game that I'm going to make you play about some. Some sensitive boys in film, so.

[B]

Well, I am a sensitive boy, so I'm very, very excited.

[A]

All of this and more on this episode of Dear Movies. I love you. Dear Movies, I love you.

[B]

And I've got to know if you love me too. Yes or no. Check the box below.

[A]

Welcome to Dear Movies. I love you. This is the podcast for those who are in a doomed relationship with movies. I'm your host, Millie Decherico.

[B]

And I'm your other host, Casey O'Brien. Oh, Millie.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We got a lot to talk about today.

[A]

We definitely do. This episode is gonna feel like I'm gonna learn a lot about you. I just have this weird feeling about it. Would that be fair to say?

[B]

Are you fearful?

[A]

No, I feel.

[B]

I'm worried I'm gonna reveal things on this podcast that are gonna make you reconsider hosting a podcast with me, knowing me as a human being. Oh, so there's that. I mean, we're gonna get into it.

[A]

No, I kind of see it as you're like this overgrown garden to discover when it comes to be weeded. Because we. We have a lot of similar tastes in movies, I would say. Yeah, More than I actually thought, I gotta admit. Because you never know. You know, when you meet people in the. In the film streets, you're like, what Are they into. And then you're like, oh, they only like. I don't know, they. Oh, they only like Michael Bay movies or something. And you're like, oh, okay, gotcha. And they're like, I'm a film freak. I'm just like you. And I'm like, we're not the same. But there was a lot of guys.

[B]

I went to film school with that. There's a specific type of film school guy who I steered clear from, but they were everywhere. And it's guys whose favorite movie is Indiana Jones, and they would also wear a fedora at film school. And this is, like, a very specific type of guy, and it says a lot about them. I like Indiana Jones, but.

[A]

Yeah, sure, sure. But, you know, I don't want to say that there are cinematic red flags when it comes to meeting people, right?

[B]

Oh, but there are.

[A]

But yeah, I was gonna say, is there some movie or some director or something that is immediately like an eyebrow gets raised with you when you talk to someone?

[B]

Oh, yes, certainly. I feel like I'm gonna be struck dead in the art house world for saying something like this. But when people are like, I love Godard, sure. I find that. I'm like, shut the fuck up. His movies are boring and they suck. That's certainly one I would say. I don't hear this, but if someone, like, loved Lars von Trier, I think that would be another one for me. Yeah. What about you?

[A]

I should. I probably be struck dead if I said this, but I'm gonna go for it. Why not? There's also, like, people who I have met who only watch A24 movies and pretty much nothing else.

[B]

Oh, A24 is becoming that. There's a film fandom there that is becoming nasty. It's. It's growing. And I mean, in some ways, it's like, I like that art house cinema is being held up and people are excited for it, but I know exactly the type of man you're talking about, okay?

[A]

Incredible movies come out on a 24. No doubt about it. Some of. Some of the best modern movies have come out on that. I want to say label, but it's a label production. Production. But that's what I mean. It has become such a branded thing where people are, like, really only kind of focusing on that and all of the output and not watching other people's movies. Do you know what I mean? Like, they just know, oh, well, this is my. This is my brand. Like, I don't go outside the brand. And it feels very kind of modern capitalism in A way to be like, I only watch movies from this one production company.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Also there's like a vibe associated with it too, which I think people have really bought into. So I don't know. Again, that's. It's probably going to make me Persona non grata, I suppose, for saying that. But I'm also like, come on, like, there are other movies that come out and have come out beyond this. So I hear you just have some variety, you know.

[B]

Absolutely. And maybe we can help with that with our film diary section to the podcast where we go through the movies we watched in the last week, we discuss them and Millie, let me just ask you this before we jump in. And this might be its own segment at some point, but what's your like, film watching process? Do you have to like, have a certain snack with you? Do you have to like turn all the like lights off? Are you like, is that like a hallowed space? Or are you like watching, you know, Lawrence of Arabia on your phone in bed or something? Where, where do you draw the line?

[A]

Oh my God. Watching Lawrence of Arabia on my phone would be a fucking nightmare.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So are you talking about in theater or at home?

[B]

At home.

[A]

At home.

[B]

The home movie watching experience.

[A]

So here is the plain truth is that I've become that middle aged person that can easily fall asleep in a movie, even if it's riveting, even if it's Indiana Jones. Do you know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I've kind of switched things up and started watching movies in the morning.

[B]

That's good. You're fresh.

[A]

Or in the early afternoon, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I gotta say, I love a morning movie. And even in the theater, like I love going to the theater in the morning, like, you know, before 2:00pm the senior citizens hour, where you get the good discounts on things. So I watch things in the morning and to be honest, the best thing for me is to like get up, make coffee, maybe make some toast.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And just watch a movie like within an hour or an hour and a half after I get up.

[B]

When your brain is fresh, ready to absorb.

[A]

Yeah. Fresh brain. And it's not as distracting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I don't feel as tired. I just. I don't know, I just love that. So that's been me for the past year or so or more.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

What about you?

[B]

You know, I used to be like really finicky about like, the room has to be completely black. I need to like watch it all in one sitting without stopping the movie. But since I've had a child Things have become real lax. I'm watching on a laptop. Sometimes I'm watching in fragments. And honestly, it hasn't ruined the overall experience. I. You know, it's better to watch a movie, though, any way you can than not at all. And I was watching them not at all because they didn't have like a, you know, a four hour block of time to watch, like, John Dealman or whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is like what I used to do before it was like, all right, turn my phone off. I'm zoned in on this movie. But I've become more easygoing as I've gotten older.

[A]

Yes, that's good. That's good. You don't want to get more rigid.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Life is gonna be harder the more rigid you are. I'm just telling you right now.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

We're so done with New Year. New you this year. It's more youe on Bumble. More of you shamelessly sending playlists, especially that one filled with show tunes. More of you finding Geminis because you know you always like them. More of you dating with intention because you know what you want. And you know what? We love that for you. Someone else will too. Be more you this year and find them on Bumblebee.

[B]

Millie, I gotta hear. I want to hear what movies you watch this past week. Please tell me.

[A]

Yeah, so, okay. Film diary this week. First up, I watched Anora. Shawn Baker's Anora.

[B]

I need to see it. What'd you think?

[A]

It's fantastic.

[B]

Damn, I gotta see it.

[A]

Huge fan of Sean Baker.

[B]

Me too.

[A]

I love Red Rocket.

[B]

See, I haven't seen Red Rock.

[A]

Like, I'm a fan more than all of y'all are of Red Rocket. I'm just gonna throw out there. Wow. Like the whole Simon Rex phenomenon.

[B]

Yes. I love this.

[A]

I love this. I love him. I have loved him since the 90s when I used to see him on MTV TV. And I just love the trajectory of his career and like, his sort of like, he's really kind of like, self effacing and very like. No. About things in his life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which I really appreciate.

[B]

He's a dynamic person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I want to see Red Rocket because I want to see him up on the screen. I think he got the call to, like, be in that movie, like, a few days before they started shooting.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And also Sean Baker, just because we're friends on Instagram. I mean, not that we interact, but.

[B]

You know, he's a good letterboxd follow.

[A]

He is. Yeah. Yeah, He's a Huge exploitation fan, which is great. I mean, I. I love that about him. So. So I saw Nora. Loved it. I thought it was very, very charming. So I then saw Pumping Iron to the Women.

[B]

I didn't know there was a Pumping Iron.

[A]

Too little of us did. And I will say, few of us knew. For shame. Because it. This is my letterboxd review, verbatim and all Vibes masterpiece. Wow. Five stars.

[B]

Five stars.

[A]

Five stars. Wow. Pumping Iron to the women is better than Pumping Iron. And I hold Pumping Iron in the highest esteem. Like, everybody knows why. I mean, you've got young Arnold talking about how working out is ejaculating. Exactly. And then you've got like, Lou Ferrigno and his dad. I mean, there's so many charming parts to Pumping Iron, but like, Pumping Iron 2 is its own fucking beautiful universe. Like, there's glamour, there's lots of backstories. There's this, like. Speaking of sensitive boys, there's a man in the movie who is a bodybuilder and he's married to one of the bodybuilder women who are competing in the big competition. And he is a wife guy of the highest order. I'm obsessed with him. But not even like an annoying wife. Like a true, beautiful soul wife guy. Like an 80s wife guy, which was hard to do back in the 80s to be that. But he is great. And the whole movie is so good and the music is great. So I had to watch it on YouTube. I think it's on YouTube. Wow. But it is so good.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I encourage everybody to see it.

[B]

Amazing.

[A]

I also watched this documentary. This is like a total swing in the other direction. I watched the documentary about Merchant Ivory.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The filmmakers. Merchant Ivory.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think it's just called Merchant Ivory. It was directed by Steven Susie. I think it's his name. S O U C. Why? And I don't know if you've had a long history with watching those movies like Room With a View.

[B]

I've only seen the Butler. Why am I blanking on the name? I read the book, too.

[A]

Remains of the Day.

[B]

Remains of the Day. I love that movie and I love that book, but that's the only Merchant Ivory movie I've seen. I guess Call Me by your name was written by.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

James Ivory.

[A]

Correct. Basically, if you don't know Merchant Ivory, they were the creators of these very. Speaking of vibes, Vibey, sort of Edwardian.

[B]

Era, England, gentle kind of movies, would you say?

[A]

Gentle, lush scenery. It's like a lot of farmhouses in England in the countryside. With, like, parasols and big dresses. Helena Bonham Carter in a messy bun that's just, like cascading, you know, down her shoulders.

[B]

Cascading, messy bun, yeah, cascading messy buns.

[A]

But, like, you know, they've done several movies over the years, and Isabelle Merchant and James Ivory were essentially a couple. They met. I mean, I think Ismail Merchant was maybe 24 when he met James Ivory. And they met in, like, you know, the 60s or the 50s or 60s. And they basically were like a gay couple at a time where gay couples were not chill, especially in England. I mean, you could get arrested for being gay in England back in the 60s. And they were, like, creative collaborators. They bring in all the usual suspects. So you've got, like, Emma Thompson and, like, Hugh Grant and all the people that were in their films. Helena Bonham Carter, of course. And then they bring in all of these other people that worked on the films. And then it was just kind of this, like, oh, they had this farmhouse, like I said, in the English countryside, and they had. The ware they edited was in a barn with, like, ivy growing up the.

[B]

Walls and, God, what a dream.

[A]

And then people would come and, like, live there for months at a time to work on their films, you know, like their composers and their, you know, story editors and everything. And I was just like. Every minute that went by, I started getting so in my feelings and I was like, I am depressed that I had never met my Life Partner at 24 and made movies with them until I died. Like, I was literally sitting there going, like, why did that not happen for me?

[B]

You fucked up.

[A]

I know. And I just was like, I mean, you know. And of course, you know, being in a relationship for that long is very complicated, especially if you work together. But, you know, and they talk about that a bit, but I was like, I hate my life. I wish I had their life. I was really in my feelings about it. I was like, I want it. I want this. Life sucks. Why am I me? And that's it. It's a fan. If you're a fan, even if you're like a kind of like, just curious about them, it's a good watch. And the last movie I watched in my film diary this week is again, another big swing in another direction was the 2009 movie called Obsessed, starring Beyonce.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And Idris Elba and Ali Lauder.

[B]

Beyonce really gave up on acting, didn't she? She was trying to make that happen for a while, and I don't know if she was very good as an actor.

[A]

We were talking about that as we were watching it because I had actually seen it before, and I was trying to get my friends Ben and Eddie to watch it because my friend Eddie has this fascination and love for Ally Lauder. And I was like, have you ever seen Obsessed? And he was like, no. And I'm like, what? It's only the best milquetoast erotic thriller I've ever seen. But that's the thing. Is that, like, Beyonce. We were talking about this because I was like, okay, should we do a Beyonce film festival? What would be included and it would be like, Gold Member. Wasn't she in Gold Member?

[B]

She was in Gold Member.

[A]

Yeah. Sort of playing that, like, fake Pam Greer character. I didn't think she was that good. Got to be honest. And listen, I'm in the Beehive.

[B]

I didn't think she was that good.

[A]

I'm in the Beehive, and I can say this.

[B]

Sure. We both are.

[A]

Yes. And then I think she was in, like, Cadillac Records and a couple of other like.

[B]

Yeah, she played Etta James in Cadillac Record.

[A]

Right. She's in another kind of like 50s Motown adjacent.

[B]

Dream Girls.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Dream Girls. But also, what is it called? Fighting Temptations or something like that. I don't know.

[B]

In the Lion King.

[A]

She was in the Lion King. Yeah. Well. And so, needless to say, I think we were all pressed to find something.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know if I'd be attending that film festival.

[A]

Yeah, I know. And if only she'd been in a Merchant Ivory movie, we'd be having a much different discussion.

[B]

If only.

[A]

But that movie Obsessed is so funny.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I think you know why I'm saying it's funny. It's ridiculous. Like, it is a ridiculous movie. It sort of feels like a Tyler Perry movie without Tyler Perry.

[B]

Kim Kardashian's not in that movie, is she?

[A]

No, no, no, no, no, no. But it's supposed to be an erotic thriller, but there's no stakes. There's no eroticness to it at all. So if you want to see a movie where Beyonce goes ham on Ali Lauder, you should check it out. And that's it for me.

[B]

Kim Kardashian was in the movie Temptation Confessions of a Marriage Counselor, which is a movie by Tyler Perry.

[A]

O, we're getting confused.

[B]

That's where you're crossing wires there. Wow. What a week for you, Millie. God.

[A]

Real, real crazy. So what about you?

[B]

I have a pathetic week compared to you. Oh, I saw the movie Wishmaster from 1997, which is a very funny. It's like an evil genie comes back, and basically he can only use his powers if used within a wish. So he's tricking people into making wishes, and they'll be like. Like, this woman, you know, working in a clothing store was like, oh, my gosh, that other woman over there is beautiful. And he's like, don't you wish you were the most beautiful woman on earth? And she's like, I guess so. And he's like, then say it. And then he, like, kills her. It's very bad and stupid.

[A]

It stars the. The late Tony Todd. Am I wrong about that?

[B]

Tony Todd, I believe, does make an appearance. Rip King.

[A]

Well, it doesn't. Maybe he doesn't start.

[B]

No, he. There. That. So Tony Todd. Robert England is in it a lot, and the guy who played Jason is in it. There's, like, a lot of other horror movie people in it. Okay. Then I watched the Substance, which I thought was great.

[A]

Ah, I haven't seen it yet. Everybody's, like, asking me if I had seen it, and I have to say no.

[B]

I love a horror movie that has a lot of goo in it. And this is a very goo forward movie. I love body horror. It reminded me of Brian Yuzna's Society. If you've ever seen that movie, it's great.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

I would even consider doing an episode on it. I think there's a lot to say about that movie.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then I watched the 2002 comedy written by Mike White called Orange County. I was just in the mood to see this movie. I remember really liking it when it came out. And it's a fun. You know, my wife Trisha is from Orange county, and so it was kind of fun to watch that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Talk about life in Orange County. And it's got a Jack Black before School of Rock, you know, before he blew up.

[A]

Colin Hanks. Yep.

[B]

Colin Hanks, Catherine O'Hara, John Lithgow, Harold Ramis, Kevin Klein. There's a lot of people in it. So Lily Tomlin.

[A]

I love Mike White, will watch anything he does. So.

[B]

Yeah. I have actually never seen Chuck and Buck.

[A]

Oh, we did it for. I saw what you did.

[B]

I know you did. Yeah, I didn't watch it.

[A]

Yeah. My favorite of his is Enlightened. I was obsessed with Enlightened when it came out on hbo to the point where when it ended, I think I actually wrote an email to someone internally, because at the time that this happened, I was working for Warner Brothers Discovery, which of course owns hbo, and I was like, let Me find somebody at hbo, write a letter, like just some maniac woman who. Who sends a blind email complaining about a show getting canceled. I was so pissed.

[B]

Did you get a response?

[A]

No, of course not.

[B]

I feel like I make emails like that. Like cold emails to random people, and, like, out of a thousand of them, one of them gets answered or, like, gets a response. And that's always thrilling. Actually, I have kind of a story related to the movie we're talking about today, kind of, I guess, to a cold email that got responded to that I was going to bring up. But that's great. That's our film diary.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

Dear Diary, Millie was mean today. Let's move on to the big show.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Of what we're talking about today.

[A]

So let's. I don't know. I'm cracking my knuckles. I don't know if you can hear it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I'm settling in on this movie that we're gonna talk about this time period. Like, when we talked about potentially bringing this movie to the podcast just to chat it up, I immediately was sent back to a time and place.

[B]

Yes. Well, I floated the idea to you, and I was worried you were gonna pick it up and then throw it back at me and say, we're not talking about this movie. So I was thrilled that you were excited to talk about it.

[A]

Oh, yeah, listen, I love matching someone's freak. So let's go.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, Fabulous. So we're talking about Garden State today. 2004 is Garden State. Written and directed by Zach Braff. Let me take you back in the time machine. It's 2004. I'm 16 years old. Oh, am I sensitive. I am a sensitive, sad little boy. And this trailer, almost more than the movie. The trailer for this movie hit me. I was just getting into art house film. You know, I was going to the lagoon in Minneapolis, and this played. I don't remember before what movie, but I was just like, this is made for me. The music, the imagery, the sensitivity. I was thinking about this. I was like, if the FBI, like, for some reason needed to try to, like, trick me and kidnap me somehow, they would put this trailer together. And I would be such an easy mark to, like, show up at a movie theater to watch this movie. I mean, it was, like, made for me.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I remember my friends and I were all. My sensitive boyfriends were so thrilled. We went on the first day that it came out. We already owned the soundtrack. The soundtrack was already a huge thing. We listened to the soundtrack. I remember this Day, very specifically, we listened to the soundtrack on the way to the theater. And when I was watching it, I was like, this is the most important movie I've ever seen. It just felt like the stakes were so high. And I feel like this movie opened, it hit me right at the right time. You know, I had probably just seen the 400 blows and like. Like the seventh seal, and I was seeing more, like, artsy movies. And so I was kind of ready for something like this. And it just. It became such an important part of my life. I look back to things that I made and wrote, even in college, that are heavily influenced by this movie. Being quirky and sensitive. And when I was in high school, my senior year, I was in the theater program. I was very heavily involved in the theater program in high school. And my senior year, my theater director came to me and another guy and were like, you guys should write a play that will do for the fall play.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

And we wrote a play that, looking back, copied a lot of elements of Garden State. It's like, about a guy, like a grown man coming, and we're like 17.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

And it's like we're like a grown man coming back to his hometown after trying to make it in L. A. And the dad was in a wheelchair, not the mom, which is like, in Garden State. I mean, it's like such. There's like a manic pixie, dream girl esque character in it. And I don't even know if I can hunt down a copy of that play. It was called Prodigal. It's like, about the prodigal son coming back. So anyways, it was. This is a very important movie for me in high school. And it's interesting because I feel like this movie became a punchline not long after it was released.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So after that initial bubble of love, like, after high school and maybe after college, I feel like it was like an embarrassing movie to like, especially when I got into film school and we're watching movies like Gummo or like, you know, like. Yeah. Sallow and stuff like that. It's like, there's no place for a movie like Garden State. But to me, I feel like I'm still affected by it in terms of the type of movie it is. I've kind of come full circle on it. Like, this type of movie is my kind of movie. Whether this is like a totally effective movie or not, this kind of movie is my still my kind of movie.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So that's my long winded ex, like, story and experience with Garden State. And we're kind of talking about it because it came out 20 years ago. It's kind of like the 20 a little longer than 20 years ago. But I believe it came out in August of 2004.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I thought it appropriate to revisit.

[A]

It, and I'm glad that you picked it, because I'll just. I'm gonna say this right now. You've said all these beautiful things about how this was a part of your childhood, about your formative years. It inspired you to be a filmmaker and to be in movies.

[B]

Yes. I mean, this is one of the movies. I would say. I went to film school because of this movie, so.

[A]

Oh, of course. I totally, totally understand. I had the complete opposite reaction when this movie came out.

[B]

Of course.

[A]

I know I'm a little bit older than you. I was 24, 25 when this movie came out.

[B]

So you're out of the. You were out of the window.

[A]

I think I not only was out of the window, but I am. I immediately saw it as sus. As the kids say, sus. I was like, what is this thing? What is happening? Because, you know, being in my 20s, I think was obviously marketed for people in their 20s, too. And I was just like. But I have no connection to Zach Braff. I have actually no connection to Natalie Portman because I'm not a Star wars person. And I wasn't really. I didn't really have a connection to her.

[B]

I was a Scrubs for Re dude. That was my favorite show in high school. I was obsessed because it was. That was like a sitcom, but it had so many, like, emotional emo moments in it, too. And I was just. I was just such a sucker for it. So, like, I was the. The pump was primed for this movie to come out for me. Oh, I was already obsessed with Zach Braff.

[A]

See, that is so interesting to me, because Zach Braff, to me, is the worst part of this movie after having seen it again, because I watched it. I think I watched it on campus at the campus movie theater of my old college. Because basically, you could see movies for a dollar there if you had your student id. And I had my. Still had my student id. So I was like, why not? And I was like, yo, I hate this big time. I hate it. Even though, like, some of the soundtrack, which I know we're gonna get into, there are bands on that soundtrack that I liked. I feel like, too, it took advantage of, like, this rediscovery of Nick Drake that I'm very resentful. I'm actually resentful of it.

[B]

Yeah. Because I think Nick Drake was in a car commercial, a Volkswagen commercial, roughly around this time. Pink Moon, I believe the song was used in that.

[A]

Yes. And speaking of sensitive boys, I was a big fan of Nick Drake. And then all of a sudden, here comes like, you know, the calvary being like, oh, Nick Drake. Pink Moon. Oh, Garden State soundtrack. I was like, you like, where have you been? Honestly, where have you been? But all of this to say, my thing about it is that, like, I had those movies when I was 16, 17 years old. I mean, when I was that age, you know, it was a lot of like, Reality Bites singles. You know, I was kind of like in high school in the 90s.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So there were movies like that were similar for me where I was like, I want to adopt the world that it's in. And.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I want to act like the characters and I just want to. I'm like all invested into this. Whatever. This movie is a promotion of a life that I want or something.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So I'm not begrudging that. That is actually like a time honored tradition for most teenagers that they find a movie that is kind of their everything and then it becomes this like, formative moment for them.

[B]

And I also think that movie is not necessarily the cool. It's kind of the more mainstream that actual cool people would be resentful of late. Like, I think 500 days of summer is actually a very similar comp to this because when I saw that, I was like 23, 24, and I was like this. I resent them using Pixies music in this.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I resent them doing this. But I know younger people who are like, very affected by that movie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's like there's kind of this window and it's like that doesn't mean those things are bad inherently, but it's. It's almost like the not. I don't know how to describe it. It's like the not cool version of something or like the more mainstream ified. Do you know what I'm saying?

[A]

Yes. Well. And like, okay, so maybe this is an easy segue into maybe the larger theme of both what this movie represents and maybe the theme of this episode in a way. So I am not sure of the actual timeline for any of this. And I feel like you might know more than me, so just feel free to correct me at any. At any point.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

This movie feels like it ushered in this era of the manic Pixie Dream Girl, which was a term that was coined by Nathan Rabin, who is a film writer and a critic, very famously created this word that has become kind of like the catch all for a certain type of female movie character. Right?

[B]

Yes. And it's. He coined that term in the review for the movie Elizabethtown, which is a Cameron Crowe movie who. Cameron Crowe is very filmmaker who has kind of utilized that type of character a few times.

[A]

Yes, well, I mean, he did. He did Singles. So it's like, I mean, even if you go back to that movie which was made in like what, 92, 94.

[B]

90.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Even though we were not in a Manic Pixie Dream Girl era, theoretically there are elements of the male character. I mean, like, I would say the Campbell Scott character in Singles is very close to the Zach Braff character or, you know, whatever character that would be in Elizabethtown, that sort of like, good guy, some damage.

[B]

Sensitive.

[A]

Sensitive. Inspired to, you know, live again via a girl who he finds charming and fascinating.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That concept, to be actually honest, is old school.

[B]

Very old school.

[A]

It's like that is, you know, very screwball comedy. Early days of Hollywood, that setup. But I feel like this movie, Garden State was the thing that really crystallized that new era of it. It felt like then after Garden State there was this like proliferation of those types of movies like Elizabethtown and it's 500 days in summer. That's after Garden State too.

[B]

Yeah, that's like 2010, right? 500 days of summer. Nick and Nora's Infinite Playlist is one that I comes to mind. Scott Pilgrim versus the World is another one. And a lot of these movies, it's a character type, but it's also a movie type. This character exists within a certain type of movie. It's like sensitive boy caught in a rut. And this, this unhinged woman who's free. A free spirit gets them out of their rut. And it's mildly problematic because it kind of is all self serving for the man's journey. And a lot of times this female character doesn't really have any substance to them other than being kind of quirky and weird.

[A]

Right. Potentially mentally ill.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Always hanging in there, which is very interesting to me as well. But here's the thing though. I mean, listen, I think you, you, if you know who I am, if you've listened to other podcasts I've done, if you just know my work or anything, just know me personally. I mean, you, you know that the Manic Pixie Dream Girl is, you know, a little. I brace myself anytime we Talk about it, because it is such an archetype that doesn't feel necessarily real. It feels like a product of a man's brain, Right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But at the same time, I want boys to be sensitive. I want them to feel deep things, and I want them to fall in love in a very, like, earnest, beautiful way. Like, I mean, I. I want the evolution of men so badly that I don't want to say it's totally bullshit that this era exists, that this type of filmmaking existed at one point, because I feel like if it makes boys more sensitive and attune to their feelings, great. But the problem is, is that, like, that conversation is never as nuanced as I want it to be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it certainly doesn't talk about the women as part of that at all in any kind of real nuanced way. Like, it's just basically like a sensitive boy's, like, projection of who he thinks is going to come him. You know what I mean? And also, I would add Eternal Sunshine. Right. That's another one of these movies.

[B]

Eternal Sunshine. Absolutely.

[A]

Yeah. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. As you know, Michelle Gondry, you know, Kate Winslet and Jim Carrey. That, to me, was the movie that I was like, oh, I understand what's going on now. Like, I watched that movie several times, and I actually think it's a great film.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it did for me, go, oh, okay. Yeah. This movie alongside all this other stuff, now we're in a vibe, and I don't know what to think of it. It feels very suspect. And also, not all women are like that. Like, they're not, you know, whimsical and fucked up and all these things. I mean, it's just like it is a fantasy. And I wish that there would be more substance to that or more conversation around what that is to mention. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah. I think that, like, inherently, it's not a bad thing. Like, I like the Manic Pixie Dream Girl. I think it's good to be able to represent women on screen in a way that isn't, like, demure and quiet. It's like. Because a lot of the times these. These women are, like, loud and abrasive and like, whoa, they're making a scene. And I think that isn't necessarily a bad thing. On the face of it, it's a good thing, you know, but it's when there's, like, all in the service of the man, and there isn't really a journey that that character goes on. Because a lot of Times they're just like, they're being like there to free the, the main character guy from his, you know, spot in life. But there isn't like they don't have a journey themselves. I was just thinking of the movie Something Wild, that sort of a manic pixie dream girl. But Melanie Griffith's character, you get to know her and her troubles and she does go on a journey. And so it, yes, there's a way to do it correctly, you know, but yeah, I don't know.

[A]

Well and like it feels like a one sided thing where it's basically like, here's a fucked up guy who meets a fucked up girl. But there's not in these movies to me as potentially, you know, seeing this through the eyes of the woman, I'm just like, where's, you know, her story in relation to, is he helping her? Is there like the thing that drove me batshit crazy about Garden State for several reasons. Okay. Like I said, I watched it again for the podcast. I was like, yup, now I'm watching this with middle aged eyes and I'm like, this movie. I had the right instinct. I did not like it before. Maybe not as strongly, but I definitely thought, okay, this is not great to me. And I think part of it is that. Well, I'll just tell you right now, I'm not saying this is a hard and fast rule for me, but I'm just going to say immediately suspect when a filmmaker who is the writer, director and star of his own movie is easily able to get in his underwear in multiple scenes. I'm like, you are in your underwear and shirtless throughout a lot of this movie.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

And I'm like, that is bold. Yeah, it's almost like he'd been wanting to get in his underwear for a long time on camera.

[B]

Interesting.

[A]

And he was able to do it. And I was like, interesting.

[B]

Okay, that's fascinating. I. That didn't cross my mind when I was watching this. I mean, on scrubs, he was shirtless a lot too. So I feel like I've seen Zach Braff shirtless and he looks good. He looks good shirtless and maybe that's why he wanted to do it.

[A]

It's like he knows he does. Casey. That's what I'm, I think I'm hinting at. He knows he looks good shirtless and he's like, yo, let me get in my underwear a lot and let me take my shirt off a lot.

[B]

Can I tell you me watching it because I haven't seen it in like, like 18 years, I don't think.

[A]

Sure, sure.

[B]

So the last time I watched this was in my freshman year of college. Just to kind of, like, check back in.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With it after a couple years. And I don't think it hit me quite as hard that time. And watching it this time, I was like, this is kind of a silly little movie. Like, there's so many visual gags and, like, cute moments and, like, well framed shots, and visually, it's fun to watch it, but I was like, the underlying emotion. Because I feel like when I first saw it, I was like, this is so emotional. And I was like, the end was so powerful for me. But this time I was like, this is just kind of cute. And there's not as much. I think, at the end of the movie, I was a little bit like, what was this all for? What are we doing here? And there were points in the movie where I'm like, where are we going?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Why are we still watching this movie? There wasn't a overarching narrative that kept it all together. And at the time, you know, I was suffering from depression and anxiety, but in kind of a smaller way.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And so I was really attached to Zach Braff's character, and he's, like, struggling with depression and anti. And he's on all these pills that are numbing him. That was such a big thing. It was like, I don't want to take these pills because they know I think feel nothing, and I just want to feel something. Anyways, flash forward a few years where I am medicated for my depression and I'm going to therapy, and I'm like, I don't find this as cute of a problem.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't think it's as accurate in its depiction of depression. And when I was on medication, I was like, oh, thank God it's numbing. Some of those feelings I never felt like, God, I just want to feel. I don't feel anything. You know? And so that type of storyline, I was less affected by, or I thought I didn't find as much. You know, I didn't connect with the character as much this time. And so I was kind of like, this is like a funny, cute movie, but I just. It didn't have the punch it once had. And it kind of made me sad, to be honest.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I wasn't able to tap into that younger version of myself.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I feel like I kind of like, in a way, was letting this movie down. I know that's sort of a silly thing to say, but I was like, no, no. I feel like you meant so much to me and I'm just not able to get with you. I mean, I'm 36 now, and I'm still a very emotionally sensitive person, but I just didn't connect to this. And I just read this graphic novel called Blankets. Have you ever heard of this book?

[A]

No.

[B]

It's from 2004 also.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And it's about a high school romance. It's similar Garden State. It's like, so intense and just like every little thing is the biggest thing in the world. And reading It As a 36 year old, I was like, I can't get into this. Yeah, not there. I'm not there anymore. And I feel like I let Blankets down because I was like, if I had read this in high school, it would have been my world, but I'm just not there anymore. And that kind of makes me sad.

[A]

I know.

[B]

I guess. No, actually, I kind of enjoyed it. And I see all the issues with it that you pointed out, but still, I have such a soft spot for it that I was able to overlook that a little bit.

[A]

Like, and as much like it may seem funny to say you let a movie down, I feel like that's okay. Like, it's okay to age out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Of a movie that you loved. We have kind of the like, opposite problem happening within popular culture was that people feel so protective over things from their childhood that even if they're like, I can't even really functionally fuck with this as hard as I used to, they'll still protect it to the hilt because they're just sort of, like, in it. They've invested so much.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I feel like we should be moving away from that instinct. Like, art is flexible and it's. You know, sometimes you really connect with things, sometimes you don't. I mean, I totally understand how this could be somebody's everything at one period of life. And also, yeah, I understand how it could still be everyone's. Someone's everything. I mean, this is a question I probably want to ask you then, because I feel like maybe this is what's happening for me, even though I'm not as strongly tied to this movie or this era or anything. Do you feel like watching it now because we have moved so much further in time? 20 years, right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Does it seem like Garden State is now almost like a parody of itself? Because we saw the proliferation of these types of films because the manic Pixie dream Girl trope has been beaten to death so much? Because, you know, 20 years pass that you're just kind of like, oh, this seems a little, like, corny and derivative and not as great because, I don't know, like, time has moved forward in that way.

[B]

Honestly, watching it this time, I was like, this is such a relic.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I like. I actually, like, really liked watching it for that reason. Like, I remember, like, shopping at urban outfitters in 2004 and, like, finding the clothes that everyone was. That people were, like, wearing in this movie. And so I feel like I can honor it in that way a little bit more than, like, my direct emotional connection to it. I can be like, this is, like, a fun thing to, like, watch just to see how people are dressed and the music and the. Just the overall vibe of it. So it's hard. I wouldn't say, like, it's a parody necessarily of itself, but I do feel like I'm like, this is just like a time capsule of 2004.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's kind of in a fun way. And I feel like, you know, in terms of, like, defending it, I feel like I have to kind of defend Garden State in a way, because I feel like it is such a punchline to this day, you know? And I think you're guilty of that. And I think you said some really rude things about this movie, and. And I think that's kind of up.

[A]

Well, listen, I. I both apologize and don't apologize.

[B]

I think that's fine. I think that's fine. I'm just kidding, obviously.

[A]

Like, listen, Casey, you have to say maybe, maybe not. I don't know. I'm dangling this one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That ending drove me fucking bananas. Where they're in the airport on the stairs. He's, like, cupping her tiny little bird face in his hands, and he's just like. She's crying her fucking eyes out because he's leaving. He's going back to la.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because she fixed him. And now he's got to go off, you know, fly the coop. Fly her bird coop. And she's fucking beside herself with the idea that they're going to be apart. And he's just like, I got to go. Got to go fucking wipe the tears away. And then he just, like, walks away.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She ends up, like, going into a phone booth and crying. And, of course, you know, like, we all know what's going to happen. Spoiler alert.

[B]

I think.

[A]

I think he comes back and realizes he's been an idiot. But that moment felt so. I wanted to stab him in the fucking eyeball for that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It felt a little cold. It felt very like, I'm being cavalier now that, you know, we've had this. I have to go. It's just, what's gonna happen? And I was like, fuck that bitch. What the fuck? Like, he's not healed. He's just as acerbic and abrasive as he always has been.

[B]

But he comes back, Millie. He came back.

[A]

That felt so stupid.

[B]

I know. The ending is. I think in my little 16 year old heart, I was kind of like, this ending, there is a realization, but we don't see it. And it's just kind of like, hey, I'm gonna go. You know what? Maybe I shouldn't go.

[A]

That's essentially, that's how it goes.

[B]

But there's a lot of cool shots and music playing that Frou Frou song. Really? Because I think, like, the trailer is with that Frou Frou song. It's like. So that was so big in the trailer. And then when you heard it in the movie, I think I was able to just forgive whatever happened. I was like, whatever.

[A]

God. Let's talk about a little bit of the soundtrack, because that was like a huge, huge.

[B]

You won a Grammy for it.

[A]

Who did?

[B]

Zach Braff. Zach Braff won a Grammy for that movie.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Okay.

[B]

You should see Millie's face right now. She's scowling.

[A]

I know. I think it's just because I want to win a Grammy for a soundtrack that I put together, AKA a Spotify playlist.

[B]

Maybe you win it for a podcast.

[A]

Yeah. Well, okay. So the soundtrack, you know, I just, like 2004, I was like, I actually started my grown up job in 2004, but I was kind of fresh out of undergrad and I had worked at the college radio station when I was in school. And so this soundtrack was kind of percolating as I was leaving college radio. Right. Yeah, certainly all these bands were all over college radio. Like, it includes a track from the first track off of the very first Coldplay album, which is pretty much the only Coldplay album that I fuck with. Yeah, I kind of like the second one, but the first one is great.

[B]

That was the only Coldplay I've ever listened to, the first two albums.

[A]

And then of course, you know, what happened to Coldplay? But it's like that thing where I was like, oh, I was brought back to that, like, first Coldplay album era. Then of course, the Shins, which I feel like the Shins got super popular because of the soundtrack.

[B]

They did. Yeah, absolutely. And that's like, I'd never heard The Shins before. So when she's like, you want to hear a movie song that will change your life? When I heard that, I was like, this is changing my life. They really picked a song that is changing my life. Yeah, that worked for me too well.

[A]

And, like. And here's another part of the movie that it features a song that I actually really love. Love. But the part of the movie that it played in drove me bananas. It was the Simon and Garfunkel song, the Only Living Boy in New York, which I actually think is such a sweet song. I love.

[B]

Yes, I love that.

[A]

Love that song. But the part that it plays in was, like, the big, sweet, big romantic moment thing in the movie, because basically, you know, it's like there's a section where they're coming out of somebody's weird house in a rock quarry. And Zach Braff is, I think, finally, it's kind of the like. Like, manifestation of all of his, like, feelings that he's been feeling since he's been back home. And he has this for this manic pixie dream girl. And it's like, him, the Natalie Portman character, and then the Peter Sarsgaard character, who. I actually love Peter Sarsgaard, by the way. He's a great. He's a great dude. They're like, standing on top of, like, a. Like an excavator or something, like.

[B]

Yeah. And next to a quarry.

[A]

Yeah, Into a quarry. And they're wearing trash bags because it's raining. And then all of a sudden, Zach Braff character is like, I got to kiss this woman.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'll do it in front of my friend who is just watching us, which is so awkward.

[B]

Millie. This is after they screamed into the quarry emotionally to let it out. I mean, that was on it. I admittedly, a powerful moment for me in 2004, in 2024. I was like, oh, boy.

[A]

Yeah. There was a lot of this, like, dorky excising of emotions. Like the part where she's in front of the fucking fireplace and she's like. Like, doing a tap dance.

[B]

Can I tap dance for you? I'd love for you to tap dance for me.

[A]

I was like, yo, that's her avoiding intimacy, by the way. Did you know that?

[B]

Yes. I mean, I think we could do a whole section on her being a non sexual entity and him being a non sexual entity and, like, the infantilizing of Natalie Portman. There's a lot to get into there. But anyways, continue.

[A]

It's like. It's like when he admits something to her that's any kind of real vulnerability. She's like, I'm just going to do a weird dance, you know, Just drives me crazy. But in that moment, there was this moment where I was like, okay. He just decides that he's, like, swept away in the moment. He's on the excavator. The only living boy in New York is playing. It's a very romantic scene. And then Peter Sarsgaard's just looking at them, and I'm like, he should have left that excavator. He's like, oh, my friends are making out. I gotta go. Like, I don't want to watch them.

[B]

Or if I. If I was directing that scene, and I've directed some things, so I think I could say this. If I was directing that scene, Peter Sarsgaard, I would have not had that character go up there.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

And that could have been a motivation. He could have. You know, he's a cigarette smoker. Maybe he's smoking a cigarette down there. He doesn't want to climb this thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then Natalie Portman and Zach Braff could scream into the quarry and make out, and it would be less awkward. Yeah, I noticed that too. When we were watching.

[A]

I would have had the drone fly over the two. Peter Sarsgaard exits stage wherever, climbs off the excavator. Like, yo, my friends are in a moment. I'm gonna leave. Because as a person who has been the third wheel for many romantic encounters in my life, I'm like, I ain't watching these two. I'm fucking off.

[B]

Yes. I have been in the same situations where I think I'm hanging out with two friends and I turn around and they are making out, and I'm like, whoa. So I have been in that situation where it's been a sneak attack make out that I didn't know was gonna happen. Yeah. So I've been there. But it's too silly of a moment to have in the movie. I agree.

[A]

Yeah. Well, like I said, I could truly go on with some of the stuff, but the soundtrack, to me, I mean, it was kind of like a mixed bag in terms of how I was feeling at the time when I was rewatching it, because I was like, oh, this Coldplay song still hits. Oh, Frou Frou. Wow. Okay. This happening at this really important time, like, the lyrics of it are so appropriate for the scene that it's happening in. And, you know, then there was also, like, I. I don't know, these bands that I Remember that? I haven't heard since this. Yeah, like, no, totally Remy Zero. I have not heard Remy Zero since 2004.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, at the time I was like, every song in this hits so hard. And now when I listened to it, I was like, a few of these.

[A]

Hit, the rest is a little bit. A few hits.

[B]

Millie, we kind of got to get moving on here. Is there any last thoughts you had?

[A]

Yes, I will, I will say this. As much as I've on your me.

[B]

As a person, you all over me.

[A]

You as a person, your interior life, your feelings, your childhood, all of that, I actually think it's insanely adorable that you loved this movie as much as you did.

[B]

I did.

[A]

And could admit to it and can talk about it with no hesitation because we should not be embarrassed by the things. There is no cringe to me. I don't believe in cringe.

[B]

Yes. I mean, you and I have talked off record. We are cringe, but we are free, you know, and it's, it's, There is no cringe. We move through the cringe. That's real.

[A]

Like, it's wonderful that you're like, this is. I was shaped by a film like this. And I know everybody thinks it's lame, but I will defend it. Yeah, I don't know. There's something very sweet about that. And I feel like it ends up making me like people more when they can say stuff like that. Like, I don't know, I just, I, I, I appreciate it as much as I did not have that experience. You know, I was already in my, like, stupid, idiot, edgelord, 25 year old, you know, smoking cigarettes, watching cannibal movies from Italy type of mode. I hold space for you having the passion and the appreciation for Garden State.

[B]

Well, thank you. I understand all the criticism of it. And even I have grown. I did buy it on Blu Ray, so I now own this movie. So if the apocalypse comes and I'm having to watch movie via generator in my, you know, shack out in the woods, I will be able to watch Garden State forever.

[A]

Is there a Zach Braff commentary on that? Blu Ray?

[B]

I believe there is. And I think I've actually watched the Zach Braff commentary already at some point. I don't really want to, like, elaborate on this, but it is sort of interesting that Zach Braff didn't become a bigger filmmaker. He didn't make another movie for 10 years.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

This was a hit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, and it's a movie he wrote and directed and starred in. You'd think he Would have had another one lined up in a year or two. But his legacy is odd, too, as I see him in commercials for a cell phone company now with the other guy from Scrubs. And it makes me sort of sad. Yeah, too, because I'm like, you could have been like a. I don't know, a 2000s Hal Hartley or.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Which I have more to say about Hal Hartley in my recommendation section. I just think there's. There's space for this type of movie, a sensitive, romantic, funny movie. And I don't think we get movies like this anymore. And, like, you can say what you will about Garden State. I. I wish there were more movies that were kind of like Garden State. We just don't have those anymore. And that makes me sad.

[A]

Yeah, I will agree with that. I feel like earnestness is in a weird place right now, generally.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. All right, moving on to something that I'm am interested in. Scared of Millie presented the idea of doing a Sensitive boys quiz to me, and I'm. I feel like I'm the authority on sensitive boys. I am a sensitive boy.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, I am a straight white male, but I like to identify as a soft straight. You can read that however you want. I like, I am a soft straight. And, you know, I mean that in every way of that, you know, meaning. And so I feel like I am the authority on this type of stuff. So, Millie, take it away. What are we doing today?

[A]

All right, so we're playing a little game here. It's going to be five questions. Each question is going to be basically a synopsis or logline or something about a movie that has come out in the past, I would say 30 to 40 years. So nothing. Nothing. That's super old. I would say keep it in, like, the 70s, 80s, 90s, and beyond, 2000s, perhaps. Okay, I'm gonna read you the synopsis of the film, and I need you to name the film. And then if you can remember the character's name or who played the character or characters in some of us, then that would be great. But just name the. Name the movie. So this is basically a game where you have to guess what movie features, you know, a sensitive boy, a sensitivo bro, or a, you know, some kind of beautiful male creature in a film.

[B]

A beautiful male creature. Love that. And so I get a point for naming the movie. And I get a point for naming the actor. Is that right?

[A]

Yeah. Well, if you just name the movie, you get a point.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

If you remember the character name or the person who Played them great. But just name the movie. That's the meat of this game.

[B]

Okay, okay.

[A]

All right. Question number one in our Sensitive boys game.

[B]

I'm listening. I have my listening face.

[A]

A group of thoughtful young men attempting a prep school in the late 1950s, create a secret club inspired by their favorite teacher, where they explore writing, poetry, and the pursuit of their true passions.

[B]

Dead poet society, correct? Yeah. Lots of sensitive boys. They love the theater film, and they love making a scene by standing up on a desk and reciting to their favorite teacher.

[A]

Ye.

[B]

God, I w. And it's so autumnal and like East Coast. I really wanted to be on the east coast as a kid. I mean, maybe that's why I like Garden Stakes. I was like, oh, I want to be in New Jersey. I want to be out of Minneapolis. But yeah, yeah.

[A]

I. Would you. If you were to say Ethan Hawk or Robert Shawn Leonard? He was kind of the most sensitive.

[B]

Robert Sean Leonard? Yes.

[A]

He was kind of like a gay coded character, wouldn't you say? And maybe Ethan Hawke's character too was a little gay coded. So anyway. Absolutely. Right. So you got one. Right.

[B]

Great. Fabulous. Fabulous.

[A]

Number two. Sensitive boy, a sports agent decides to adopt a more personal, ethical approach to his career after being fired from his job navigating both professional struggles and a complicated relationship with a single mother and her child.

[B]

Jerry Maguire. It's interesting you bring up Jerry Maguire because that's another Cameron Crow movie. He's a sensitive dude.

[A]

What?

[B]

I think it's funny. He also. It gets name checked. But the ultimate sensitive boy book, Catcher in the Rye, is namechecked in that movie.

[A]

So anyways, too right. You got that second one, right. How could you not?

[B]

Tom Cruz. Cuba Gooding Jr. Renee Zelweger. Jonathan Lipnicki.

[A]

How did you know that? I forgot about that name. Wow. You get bonus for that. Jonathan. Nikki. My goodness. Jay Moore. Remember Jay Moore?

[B]

Yeah, man. It's been a while since I've seen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That. There's a. There's a video collective in LA called Everything is Terrible.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Have you seen them?

[A]

I have, yeah. They do tours.

[B]

Okay. And they had a thing where they were like collecting every VHS copy of Jerry Maguire. I think they have like thousands of Jerry Maguire because I think it's a frequent one in like a Goodwill VHS spin. It's like everybody had Jerry Maguire on vhs. So anyways, that's thing.

[A]

Weirdly enough, my family did not. Even though my parents had the weirdest VHS tapes. They. They only had like 12 or something. 10 or 12. And they were all weird as shit.

[B]

That's so funny.

[A]

I'm surprised Jerry McGuire wasn't one of them. Anyway, that's the second one.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Got you right. Number three in our sensitive boys quiz. In this 1980s coming of age classic, a sensitive and mature young boy from a troubled family becomes the emotional leader of a group of friends who are on a journey to find a dead body.

[B]

Oh, Stand by me.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Oh, man. This is a weeper. This isn't just like a sensitive boy. I. I feel like this is just. I can't really even watch this movie anymore.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Because like that. That monologue of River Phoenix talking about stealing the lunch money. I think you guys covered this.

[A]

Oh, we did, did.

[B]

I saw you did. I mean, it's so just such a gut punch. And, like, I remember being really affected when the epilogue, when they're like, this is what happened to the characters.

[A]

Oh. And you're like, God, spoiler alert. He dies. And I was like, shook. That haunted me forever.

[B]

Yes. You know, it's kind of similar to the end of American Graffiti, where it's like their lives sucked after this kind of.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's like the main character in Standby Me becomes a successful writer, but it's like one guy lost his mind in Vietnam. One guy. It's just kind of like, man, that is so depressing.

[A]

So depressing. I was like, is this. Why is. Stephen King is. Because this horrible fact has been brought in here now I'm mulling it over for the rest of my life.

[B]

He got stabbed in the neck standing in line, like, at a fast food restaurant. It was something like that. That's like God Almighty.

[A]

Yeah, well. But I would argue that River Phoenix was like, one of the OG sensitive boys from my childhood. So.

[B]

God, I would have. I would have literally. I would have killed a person if I could have had his hair. Oh, God, I had such a curly hair in the 90s. And it was all about that River Phoenix cool guy hair. If someone was like, one person on earth could die, but you'd have that hair, I would be like, do I have to know that person? And they were like, no. I might have said yes because I was like, I wanted that hair so badly.

[A]

I mean, listen, his whole mythology at this point, I mean, it's kind of interesting to call it a mythology, but it is. I mean, he was like a famous young actor that died young. So, of course, there's just like an aura and a mythology around him in his life. Right. In this era when he became, like, 90s famous when he was dating Martha Plimpton, who, to me was like, she was. She symbolized the actual cool girl because she was kind of, like, tomboyish. She was like, alternative. You know, she wasn't like this. She just seemed like a girl that I would know from my high school and be friends with. So when she was dating River Phoenix and, you know, it was, like, rumored that he was bisexual or whatever, I was like, this is who I want to thrive forever. I want them to live together in a brownstone in New York and grow old together. And they were gonna be my, you know, the model for my life. Yeah, it was such a magical time when they were together. And I know that he was probably going through demons and there was a lot of tucked in there, but, like, honestly, for my money, that was the eternal couple for me.

[B]

Fascinating.

[A]

Anyway, okay, moving on. So you got three, right. Number four.

[B]

I thought you were gonna make this hard, Millie. What the.

[A]

Oh, I know. Listen, I had to softball it because I wasn't sure what you were gonna think.

[B]

Yeah. If I had done badly, I might have gotten too sensitive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Cried about it.

[A]

I should have pulled in some goodard. Really rocked you. Number four. A compassionate, sensitive, and unorthodox therapist helps a troubled young genius working as a janitor at MIT to confront his past and to realize his full potential.

[B]

See, I thought I was like, oh, this is a good one. She's doing Ordinary People. But I also. I love that movie, Sensitive Boy. In the hall of fame for sensitive boy movies, of course. Oh, Goodwill hunting. Speaking of River Phoenix, Gus Van Sant directed My own Private Idaho with River Phoenix. And he's kind of a sensitive boy director, too.

[A]

Well, and here's the thing. This is technically the second Robin Williams in this quiz.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's not very long, but his character is the sensitivo.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

As much as, like, people focus on Matt Damon and sort of his evolution in the movie. No, the therapist is a sensitive boy. He's the soft boy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, the soft boy.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

His whole speech about talking about his late wife is on TikTok, like, all the time. And every fucking time, I watch it all the way through.

[B]

We need to do an episode about movies on TikTok.

[A]

Oh, my God. That would blow the doors off. We would have, what, 2 million downloads? Easily.

[B]

We'd have so many Gen Z followers.

[A]

Put a pin in that, Casey. Jesus.

[B]

Okay, last one, Last one.

[A]

Okay, bring up the caboose. Here we go. Last in the sensitive boys quiz, number five. A high school graduate falls Deeply in love with a girl from his class, famously holding a boombox above his head while it plays Peter Gabriels in your eyes outside of her window as the ultimate expression of his true feelings.

[B]

Say anything?

[A]

Yes, correct.

[B]

Now, lots of sensitive boys in this movie. John Cusack, obviously, ultimate sensitive boy.

[A]

Do you think that Lloyd Dobler is the. A prototype for the sensitive boy and maybe like the Zach Braff iteration of the sensitive boy?

[B]

Yeah. Oh, I. I definitely the prototype for the sensitive boy. I didn't bring this up, but I feel like a case could be made for Harold from Harold and Mon.

[A]

Yes, absolutely. Okay.

[B]

The Graduate.

[A]

It.

[B]

Yes, he is a sensitive boy.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But John Cusack is in that lineage, certainly. I actually know someone who did this sort of unironically and held music outside somebody's window like this.

[A]

What?

[B]

It's one of those things. It's kind of like Garden State where you're like, really? Oh, boy. Really? But it's still touching. And it's. It's a good movie. It's a little bit darker than I think. Like, the whole thing with, like, the dad going to jail.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And saying anything is odd and.

[A]

Is that Cameron Crowe? Oh, I'm just saying. I think Cameron Crowe was responsible for a lot of this. A lot of this malarkey.

[B]

The architect. He directed it. He is the architect for the sensitive boy. Boy, what has Cameron Crowe done recently?

[A]

I don't know. Is he still married to the. One of the Heart sisters?

[B]

Oh, Nancy Wilson. No.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, boy.

[A]

Well, you got all five, right? Just like I thought you would. Wow. Wow.

[B]

Thank you, Millie. Wow. Fabulous.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Thank you so much for putting that together. I knew I would ace it. But it still feels good to get a good score on that.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. Foreign.

[B]

Now it's time for Employee Picks. This is where we recommend movies based on, you know, the things we talked about in this very episode. Millie, what do you got?

[A]

You know, I was thinking, what is one of my favorite sensitive boys? And maybe this is a bit dark. It's. I'm taking it in a darker direction. I would have to say that my film recommendation for this week would have to be psycho from 1960. Because Norman Bates. Wow. Is a sensitive boy.

[B]

Yeah. He is certainly, I would say, too sensitive.

[A]

Very much. Very much. So here's the thing. I mean, recommending Psycho is like recommending that you drink water every day. I know. It's such a layup, but it's so good.

[B]

I've watched it in the last two years, and it's so. I went through A bit of a Hitchcock thing.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

A little while back. But Psycho is so good.

[A]

I think so too. If you're a person who sort of like, again, like, feels a little sus about the kind of canon film canon, classic film canon. And you think Alfred Hitchcock. Ugh. Why? Why would I? He seems like such a dude or whatever. I think Psycho is one of his best and feels like a slightly different take than certain things. I mean, honestly, it's great. It's like a great character study. I think Norman Bates as a character is super fascinating, obviously, for many reasons.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I also think, like. Like, if you ever read about Anthony Perkins and the actor who played Norman Bates, obviously, and sort of his life before and after he played Norman Bates is really fascinating. Like, he really couldn't shake it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he tried a lot. He actually tried and then didn't try because then he started in the Psycho remakes. We did all of them. I think.

[B]

I have not seen these movies.

[A]

Psycho 4 is kind of great, dude. Like, it's weird.

[B]

Check it out.

[A]

So it's like there's something to the idea of, like, him remaining tied to a film as the franchise destroys the original legacy of the film. Like, it's that funny thing of, like, that's a person who just wants to keep going and keep making worse and worse iterations of this classic. Yeah, I love that. But I also think that he did try to do some interesting stuff after, and I think people just thought he was creepy for the rest of his life.

[B]

I think it's sad because I feel like it's much easier to pivot to a different type of thing now. Like, people are much more forgiving of, like, there was a time not too long ago when it was like, oh, you're on tv, you can't be in movies.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You'd never be a movie star. And it's like people are much more accepting of that now. Or like, oh, you started out as this one specific thing and now you do something else. It's. But like, back then, if you're, like, known as Norman Bates, you're Norman Bates. There's no way to get away from that.

[A]

Yeah. And also, I mean, his son, Oz Perkins, who's out here making a shit ton of horror movies, he did Long Legs.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That movie the Monkey is About to Come Out.

[B]

He did the. The Pretty Little Thing in the House, I think.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So I like his movies. Yeah, he's good.

[A]

So it's kind of cool that his son is a kind of a horror director.

[B]

Now, Anthony Perkins also wrote a great whodunit called the Last of Sheila, which he co wrote with Stephen Sondheim.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is a great movie.

[A]

Love that movie.

[B]

That's not my wreck. Not my wreck, but it's good.

[A]

Well, what is your wreck then, smarty.

[B]

Pants, sensitive boy, smarty pants guy over here. So I brought this guy up already. There's a filmmaker named Hal Hartley, and he is kind of a 90s indie king. I would say his most famous movie is. What would you say? Henry.

[A]

Henry Fool.

[B]

I would say he's made a ton of movies, but he is a very independent filmmaker. Like, he owns his own movies and he, like, distributed his own movies. I think he, like, funded his own movies. And he's just like a really interesting guy. And I don't think he's celebrated enough because a lot of his movies are about sensitive boys.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And they're romantic and they're kind of silly and cute, but also kind of dark. And he made a lot of his stuff just like on Long Island. And he's great. I haven't seen all of his movies. Some of them are a bit eye rolly, you might say a little bit like. Like just they're earnest and they're sincere and that can sometimes come across as cringy, as Millie said. But I'm going to recommend one of his first movies. Trust.

[A]

Yes. I love that movie.

[B]

I love Trust. And I mentioned he's independent. Stream it on his website. Go to Hal Hartley dot com. You can stream it there. Don't rent it from Amazon if you can, just to support the filmmaker. And a quick story about Hal Hartley. I'm in the midst of making an independent film right now, and I was trying to raise money and it was really hard. And I wrote to him on his website.

[A]

What?

[B]

And he wrote me back.

[A]

What?

[B]

With a very thoughtful email.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Now I was basically like, how do you do this? I'm in hell. This sucks. I don't think you'll ever write me back, but I just had to, like, express that to somebody, you know, trying to raise money for this. He wrote me back the sweetest email. And he was like. Basically was like, yep, raising money. Even now a successful filmmaker as I am, it is hell and it sucks. So you're not alone. And it was really sweet. Now I don't know if I would. If I ever wrote him back, he'd write me back. It was just like, maybe I just caught him on the right day, but it made me like him even more. And so he's like my sensitive boy king Watch trust.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

On his website, halhartly.com. he's awesome.

[A]

You know what I love about Hal Hartley? One of the things of many things is that his, like, muse or something was Martin Donovan, who was like, this cool actor. You know what? I. What? I kind of think it's in the same way. It's kind of like Hal Hartley used Martin Donovan in the same way that Whit Stillman uses Chris Eichmann for his films.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's kind of like this, you know, actor that they work with in many movies, but that that actor becomes kind of the archetype for that director's movie.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

Like the Martin Donovan characters that are in the Hal Hartley movies becomes a guy that you just associate with Hal Hartley. And the same thing I feel with. With Stillman and Chris Eichmann. Same vibe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All this is to say I miss the 90s so much because this was like a thing that I felt like, like happened a lot in 90s movies, and I just wish it would happen more.

[B]

Yes. So, yeah, that's my recommendation. Trust. Go to hellheartly.com and support him. He had a Kickstarter like a year ago for his newest movie. I mean, it's. It's hard out there, even for someone who's made a bunch of movies.

[A]

Yeah. Wow. What a cool dude.

[B]

Well, that's our show. In the future, we would love to be giving out film advice at the end of our show. Sort of a mailbag of sorts. But to give you all advice, if you need a specific recommendation, if you need help navigating a director's filmography, or if you need a film gripe resolved, please write in. You can email [e-mail] yes.

[A]

And if for some reason you want to do it with a voicemail, even if you want to ask for advice or if you just want to say something to us, you can do a voicemail. And all you got to do is record it it on your phone. Make sure it's under one minute long, please. And email it to us@Dear MoviesXactlyRightMedia.com you.

[B]

Can follow us on our socials at Dear Movies, I love you on Instagram and Facebook.

[A]

Yes. And if you are a letterboxd user and you want to follow us, we are at Casey Lee O'Brien and at M. De Cherico.

[B]

Well, Millie, thank you so much for letting me talk about the most important movie of the 21st century, Garden State. And being patient with me and, you know, being patient rewatching a movie I don't know if you necessarily. Absolutely loved upon your first viewing. So I appreciate that.

[A]

Listen, I appreciate that you appreciate it, and I appreciate you, and that's all that matters.

[B]

Thank you, Millie. Bye, everybody.

[A]

Goodbye. This has been an exactly right production, hosted by me, Millie de Chirico, and produced by my co host, Casey O'Brien.

[B]

This episode was mixed by Tom Breifocel. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. Our guest booker is Patrick Cotner, and our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

[A]

Our incredible theme music is by the best band in the entire world, the Softies.

[B]

Thank you to our executive producers, Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, Daniel Kramer and Millie De Jong. Jericho.

[A]

We love you. Goodbye.