Michael Mann & Heat (1995) featuring Jamie Loftus

Summary

Dear Movies, I Love You: Episode Summary Episode: Michael Mann & Heat (1995) featuring Jamie Loftus
Release Date: June 10, 2025
Hosts: Millie De Chirico and Casey O'Brien
Guest: Jamie Loftus

---

Introduction

In this engaging episode of Dear Movies, I Love You, hosts Millie De Chirico and Casey O'Brien delve deep into the world of Michael Mann's 1995 classic, Heat. Featuring a special appearance by Jamie Loftus, the conversation seamlessly transitions from film analysis to theatrical explorations, offering listeners a rich tapestry of cinematic insights.

Dramatic Reading from Heat

The episode kicks off with a dramatic reading from Heat, performed by Jamie Loftus. Despite some initial nervousness, Loftus delivers her lines with impressive authenticity:

Jamie Loftus (02:04): "I'm angry. I'm very angry, Ralph. ... But you do not get to watch my fucking television set."

This scene sets the tone for the episode, highlighting the intense emotions and complex character dynamics that Heat is renowned for.

Connecting Film News: The Annabelle Doll Incident

Millie introduces a quirky and spooky segment connecting current events in New Orleans with the infamous Annabelle doll from The Conjuring universe. She narrates a series of events where news about a jailbreak and a plantation fire coincided with the Annabelle doll's tour:

Millie De Chirico (08:08): "There are people saying that the Annabelle doll is unleashing her powers in New Orleans..."

This humorous yet intriguing connection adds a layer of supernatural fascination to the discussion, blending real-world events with cinematic lore.

Movie Diary: Recent Watches and Reactions

Millie and Jamie share their recent movie-watching experiences, providing personal insights and recommendations:

• Millie De Chirico admits to not watching any full movies recently but enjoyed a short film by the K-pop band Enhypen.
• Jamie Loftus discusses her viewing of The Fall Guy (2024) and revisiting The Accountant (2016), highlighting their action-packed narratives and performances.

Jamie Loftus (24:42): "The Accountant is pretty over the top, campy yet enjoyable. I can't wait for the sequel."

In-Depth Discussion: Michael Mann's Heat

The core of the episode revolves around an exhaustive analysis of Heat, exploring its themes, character dynamics, and directorial prowess:

Themes and Character Studies

Millie elaborates on Michael Mann's unique storytelling approach, emphasizing the film's focus on the internal lives of both criminals and law enforcement:

Millie De Chirico (29:34): "The pacing is really attractive, showing the inner workings of crimes and how the cops operate."

Jamie complements this by drawing parallels to French crime films, underscoring the methodical and emotional depth Mann injects into his characters.

Masculinity and Emotional Depth

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the portrayal of masculinity in Heat, examining how the male protagonists navigate their professional obsessions and personal relationships:

Jamie Loftus (40:31): "A dude movie has to have emotional depth so that a guy can really feel invested."

Millie agrees, noting the cultural stereotypes surrounding "dude movies" and how Heat transcends these norms by presenting multifaceted male characters.

Iconic Performances and Scenes

The hosts dissect pivotal performances, particularly the legendary on-screen pairing of Al Pacino and Robert De Niro. They reflect on their chemistry and the film's Shakespearean undertones:

Millie De Chirico (45:35): "Pacino seems like he's being possessed, about to explode in many scenes."

Jamie Loftus (45:50): "I'm a huge Pacino boy. He just seems so insane in some scenes."

The iconic final sequence where both leads collide is highlighted as an emotional and cinematic masterpiece:

Jamie Loftus (69:56): "The face-off between Pacino and De Niro was so stressful and silent, yet incredibly powerful."

Guest Segment: Jamie Loftus on Jesus Christ Superstar

Transitioning from film to theater, Jamie Loftus shares her expertise on the musical Jesus Christ Superstar. She discusses her personal connection to the film, influenced by her upbringing and familial ties to musical theater:

Jamie Loftus (74:10): "I was obsessed with Carl Anderson as a kid. Watching Judas and Jesus interact was captivating."

Millie, though less familiar, expresses her newfound appreciation after watching it for the first time:

Millie De Chirico (78:18): "I thought Andrew Lloyd Webber was ridiculous, but Jesus Christ Superstar blew my mind."

The conversation touches on the portrayal of characters, the 70s hippie aesthetic, and the musical's lasting impact on audiences.

Employees' Picks: Movie Recommendations

To wrap up, Millie and Jamie recommend films that resonate with the episode's themes:

• Millie's Recommendation: Panic in Needle Park (1971) – A bleak portrayal of heroin addiction in New York City.

  Millie De Chirico (93:39): "It's a dark, gritty 70s drug film that's perfect for fans of intense character studies."

• Jamie’s Recommendations:

  • Ambulance (2022) – Directed by Michael Bay, inspired by Heat's shootout sequences.
  • Drive (2011) – Directed by Nicholas Winding Refn, heavily influenced by Michael Mann's style.

Conclusion

The episode concludes with enthusiastic endorsements for future discussions, including an upcoming deep dive into Southern Gothic films and Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. Hosts encourage listeners to engage through emails and voicemails, fostering a community of passionate film aficionados.

Millie De Chirico (99:07): "Next week, we're diving into Southern Gothic films with Cat on a Hot Tin Roof. Join us for another insightful episode!"

Notable Quotes

• Jamie Loftus (40:31): "A dude movie has to have emotional depth so that a guy can really feel invested."
• Millie De Chirico (45:35): "Pacino seems like he's being possessed, about to explode in many scenes."
• Jamie Loftus (69:56): "The face-off between Pacino and De Niro was so stressful and silent, yet incredibly powerful."

---

Follow Dear Movies, I Love You
Stay connected and join the conversation on Instagram @dearmoviesiloveyou for updates and behind-the-scenes content.

---

This summary captures the essence of the episode, highlighting key discussions, insights, and memorable moments. Whether you're a long-time fan or new to the podcast, this overview provides a comprehensive glimpse into the rich conversations that make Dear Movies, I Love You a beloved destination for cinema enthusiasts.

Transcript

[Millie Decherico]

This is exactly right.

[Casey O'Brien]

I want my kids to have a healthy relationship with food, which means avoiding junk food as much as possible and giving them things that are good for them. That's why I love giving my kids organ. It's convenient, real nutrition that checks all the boxes for me. It provides a good source of complete protein to keep my kids going strong and giving them energy to do all the things they want. It offers over 20 essential vitamins and minerals. Orgain is an excellent source of vitamins B12D and zinc to support immune health. It's USDA certified organic and has 25% less sugar than the leading kids. High protein nutritional shakes. One of the best things that I love about organ is that I do not have to force my kids to drink or eat anything from organ because the second they tried their shakes, they loved them. Jace loves the fruity cereal flavor. Jolie loves the vanilla and chocolate. So shop organ kids. Now [e-mail] and selected retailers.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and safeway now through June 17th. Shop in store or online for your favorite personal care Items and save $5 when you spend $15 or more. Stock up on items like Dove Body Wash Degree Motion sense Deodorant, Tresemme Hairspray, Dove Shampoo, Dove bar Soap, Dove Men's body and face Wash and Dollar Shave Club blades. And save $5 when you spend $15 or more. Hurry in before these deals are gone. Offer ends June 17. Promotions may vary. Restrictions apply. Visit albertsons or safeway.

[Jamie Loftus]

This Father's Day at Lowe's. Score free gifts for the greatest dad. Right now get a free select Dewalt Craftsman or cobalt tool with purchase of a select battery kit. Plus get a free Werner 2 foot aluminum ladder when you buy an 8 foot fiberglass ladder. Shop these deals and more this Father's Day at Lowe's. We help you save valid through 6:15 while supplies last selection varies by location.

[Millie Decherico]

And now a dramatic reading from Michael Mann's Heat.

[Jamie Loftus]

I'm angry. I'm very angry, Ralph. You know you can ball my wife if she wants you to. You can lounge around here on her sofa in her ex husband's dead tech post modernist bullshit house if you want to. But you do not get to watch my fucking television set. And now for another scene. Wait, I gotta look this up.

[Millie Decherico]

You gotta do it.

[Jamie Loftus]

I gotta look up my. My line here.

[Millie Decherico]

Give me my prompt.

[Jamie Loftus]

Why'd I get mixed up with that bitch?

[Millie Decherico]

Cause she's got a great ass end scene.

[Jamie Loftus]

Beautiful. Beautiful. Mellie. That was very. I was really nervous to do that.

[Millie Decherico]

You're a theater person though, right? You took theater.

[Jamie Loftus]

I am, but I'm kind of a shy person sometimes. But I am a theater person, you know, and I didn't have as much time to prepare, you know, because preparation is a lot of part of being a theater. Of course, in the theater.

[Millie Decherico]

Of course.

[Jamie Loftus]

So, you know, I felt very exposed, but I think it came out okay.

[Millie Decherico]

I mean, consider we decided to do this two minutes ago.

[Jamie Loftus]

Sure.

[Millie Decherico]

I think you did incredible.

[Jamie Loftus]

Thank you.

[Millie Decherico]

I am not theatrical. I just like trying impressions. I'm not even saying I'm good at impressions because I'm definitely not, but I like trying them, if you know what I mean.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, I think that's great. I think, you know, passion is, you know, 80% of a good impression.

[Millie Decherico]

I would say I have no shame. I think that's the bottom line.

[Jamie Loftus]

That's great. Well, we're talking about Heat today, everybody. Michael Mann and all of his work and the 1995 classic Heat, which, like we mentioned last episode 30 years ago. Do you remember this movie coming out, Millie?

[Millie Decherico]

Yes, I do. And maybe this is something we can talk about because I remember when it came out, I was in high school and I was like, that movie is for guys.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Millie Decherico]

And not me.

[Jamie Loftus]

And you were wrong.

[Millie Decherico]

I am wrong. In fact, I'm probably one of the biggest female Heat fans you could find interesting. And I. And I say that knowing that everybody can like this movie now, it's not just for guys, but that's something that maybe is going to come up a little bit with the director, Michael Mann, because he's totally. He sort of has like a theme going in some of his, most of his, a lot of his movies, which we'll dive into.

[Jamie Loftus]

And then we also have an amazing. My area of expertise. We have the comedian Jamie Loftus, host of the Bechdel cast, co host of the Bechdel Cast with Caitlin Durante, and the author of the book Raw the Naked Truth About Hot Dogs. And she's going to come on and talk about Jesus Christ Superstar, which was a first time watch for Millie. So that was a fun combo to get to hear your thoughts, your first impressions of it.

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah. And I feel like you guys really theater nerd out, like, which again is like maybe related to what you've just done, this dramatic reading.

[Jamie Loftus]

There's just so much hatred for theater kids. They're like the most hated species of human. And I try to like stick up for them a little bit.

[Millie Decherico]

Listen, I like that you do? Because I. Yes. I am not a theater person. Never have been. I've been known to, you know, you know, have a few words about them once in a while. Yeah. But honestly, I like that you defend them. And as I'm getting older, I'm becoming more and more willing to engage with the theatrics of your work.

[Jamie Loftus]

People are. People are embarrassed by sincerity. And I think that there's nothing more sincere than a theater kid. So, yeah, a lot of people run away from that. But it's true. And I see that. I understand. I understand it. But anyways, you get it.

[Millie Decherico]

It's kind of how I feel about being a film nerd. It's like, you know who you are. I mean, every. Most people think you're a huge dork.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Millie Decherico]

And yet you accept it. We are cringe, but we are free. Right?

[Jamie Loftus]

That's right. That's right.

[Millie Decherico]

Well, on that note, stay tuned, everybody, for a really hot episode. You were listening to Dear Movies, I love you. Dear movies I love.

[Jamie Loftus]

And I've got to know if you love me too. Yes or no.

[Millie Decherico]

Check the box below. Hello, everybody. You are listening to Dear Movies I love you, which is a podcast for people who are in a relationship with movies. They met when they were kids, they parted ways after high school and college and then somehow came back together during, you know, family reunion in their hometown. Right. My name is Millie Decherico.

[Jamie Loftus]

My name is Casey O' Brien.

[Millie Decherico]

And this episode is episode 18. We've done 18 episodes.

[Jamie Loftus]

Amazing. Does it feel like 18? It kind of does.

[Millie Decherico]

It kind of does. Yeah. I did my last podcast. We did like, what, 200 episodes?

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Millie Decherico]

So I still feel like we're babies.

[Jamie Loftus]

We're babies. Yeah.

[Millie Decherico]

But, yeah, we're. We're going to have a lot of fun this week. I. Right off the bat, I have to talk, I have to bring up some film related news.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yes, please.

[Millie Decherico]

This is kind of a.

[Jamie Loftus]

We kind of do news at the top of the show, so I think this is a good time to bring that in.

[Millie Decherico]

Yes. A little film housekeeping. Now, this is kind of a roundabout film news item, but I have to talk about it because I think it's absolutely insane. Have you been hearing the stories about the Annabelle doll that's been wreaking havoc in New Orleans especially?

[Jamie Loftus]

No.

[Millie Decherico]

Okay.

[Jamie Loftus]

I have seen all of the conjuring movies, but I've never seen any of the Annabelle movies.

[Millie Decherico]

Okay.

[Jamie Loftus]

So I have some working knowledge of the. The world from which she comes from.

[Millie Decherico]

Okay. So I barely know. I mean, I think I might have seen the first Conjuring movie, but I barely know, and I actually barely know the real story that it's based off of, even though I know that the. The. So basically it's a. It's a true story in the sense that the people that are in the Conjuring are based off of a real life paranormal couple. Right.

[Jamie Loftus]

They were like actual, like, employees of the Catholic Church, I believe.

[Millie Decherico]

Wow.

[Jamie Loftus]

Going out and trying to, like, solve ghost mysteries. I'm actually, like, scared what you're gonna tell me about this Annabelle doll.

[Millie Decherico]

Okay, so. Okay, so here I'm gonna back up and give you the whole reason why I'm even bringing this up. So the other night, my friend Eddie Ray is like, hey, guys, if anybody wants to come over to watch Annabelle, I'll be watching it. And I'm like, why the fuck are you watching Annabelle again? Like, that's weird. And he was like, have you not heard about what's going on in New Orleans? So this has actually happened. There's two specific events that have happened recently in New Orleans, Louisiana. Number one is that there was a jailbreak. Have you heard about this? So I'm not going to. I don't know all the details. You can look it up online. It's everywhere. Basically, There were like 10 inmates that escaped from a prison.

[Jamie Loftus]

I saw some TikToks about this.

[Millie Decherico]

Okay.

[Jamie Loftus]

So yes.

[Millie Decherico]

And basically they like, escaped through a hole in the back of a toilet or something like that. Like, and there's been a lot. And listen, tick tock is not good if you like conspiracy theories because there's a lot of people being like, how is that even possible? Like, you can't. Like there's plumbers that are like, how is it? Like, how were they able to do this? You know, because of the unique nature of modern prisons is, you know, it's like, really, it's harder than ever to break out of a prison. Let's get serious. Right? But somehow these, like 10 dudes are managed to do it. So there's that. The other thing is that there was a huge fire that happened and it was at the not away plantation. And.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yes, okay. I saw this on TikTok too. I didn't know these were connected.

[Millie Decherico]

Yes, well, I'm about to tell you how they're connected. So essentially this, you know, this plantation that's been around since like the 1800s, you know, for most people who don't. Who haven't either lived in the south or didn't grow up in the South, I mean, bottom Line is that the south still has actual plantation homes that still are around. And, you know, they are a lot of times museums and all this stuff. I mean, it's like depending on your feelings about that. I mean, honestly, they're a symbol of racism and hatred, and people hate them. Right.

[Jamie Loftus]

Didn't Ryan Reynolds and Blake Lively get married on a plantation?

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah. And I remember, like, I mean, just. I remember as a kid touring old plantation homes when I was living in, like, South Carolina. And I mean, they've got them in Georgia. I mean, there was like. I remember there was this like, fucking gas station that we used to go to pretty much every summer when we were drive down to like, Florida or whatever that was like, called Plantation House. And it was basically like a quick trip, but it was in a plantation house. And I was like, damn, that's so up.

[Jamie Loftus]

Did you ever go to Soup Plantation in Los Angeles?

[Millie Decherico]

Okay. You know, I did the one that's near the Beverly Center.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yep, yep, yep. I don't think that one's there anymore.

[Casey O'Brien]

Okay.

[Millie Decherico]

I used to go to Soup Plantation with my friend. My friends April Richardson and Chip Pope, and we used to rage on Soup Plantation.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, yeah, it's so good. Soup Plantation is a, like a buffet restaurant that serves mostly soup and salads. They do have hot food too, but it like the main chili. Yeah, the main character is like soup and salads.

[Millie Decherico]

So if you're not a California person, there was a very, very similar comp in Atlanta, at least for a long time, called Let us surprise you. Let us Soup prize you basically.

[Jamie Loftus]

Ooh, good. A double pun.

[Millie Decherico]

Oh. I mean, whoever came up with these names? I mean, Soup Plantation is kind of problematic, but let us. Let us sup Prize you fuck. I went there all the time too, you know, Nortrude Hills, Everybody knows. Okay, so back to this plantation.

[Jamie Loftus]

I'm sorry I brought up Sioux plantations totally derailed.

[Millie Decherico]

You had to. It was like coming out of your body. So this Nottaway Plantation has burned down. Burned down to the ground. Right. And so people have figured out that these two events that have happened in New Orleans have happened suspiciously close to this tour that has been going on with the actual Annabelle doll. Okay. So, you know, the real. There's a real dollar that, you know, obviously the conjuring movies are based off of Annabelle's. Based off of, which is like a Raggedy Ann doll, basically. And normally this fucking bitch is locked in a fucking museum. And there's like. If you look at pictures, there's like handwritten note cards on the on the glass being like, do not open this shit. Like, please, you're going to unleash a demon or whatever. But somebody opened it, and now somebody opened it.

[Jamie Loftus]

She's out.

[Millie Decherico]

She's on tour. Casey. She's in New Orleans. This is the problem. Like, so everybody is. Is saying that the reason why these two things happened, the jailbreak happened in the. In the plantation burning down, is because the Annabelle doll is in New Orleans unleashing her powers.

[Jamie Loftus]

They should not have let Annabelle go to New Orleans because New Orleans is like, the most haunted city in America.

[Millie Decherico]

I know. And this is the thing, is that people are like, it's if. If she doesn't leave that there's going to be more problems. But here's the thing. There are people who are actually like, actually, can Annabelle come to my city and burn down the plantation homes there? Because we don't like them. Like, come to Georgia, Annabelle, so we can get rid of these fudgeing old racist homes and eating.

[Jamie Loftus]

She's like Godzilla.

[Millie Decherico]

But can you fucking believe that?

[Jamie Loftus]

That's scary. I don't mess with that stuff. I wouldn't bring. I wouldn't call upon this doll to visit my home, even to destroy something evil. That's scary.

[Millie Decherico]

Well, and now I'm like, okay, there's got to be another movie in the works because of all these. This new information.

[Jamie Loftus]

Right, Blumhouse, get on it.

[Millie Decherico]

You can do the first part of it being like sort of Jim Jarmusch's Down By Law, where you have like a, you know, black and white prison break, and then you can move it into, you know, your horror territor.

[Jamie Loftus]

Or you know what this could be like Nightmare on Elm Street. What is it? Freddy's new. New. New Nightmare where they're, like, making a Nightmare on Elm street movie. It could be kind of meta, you know.

[Millie Decherico]

Man, who would direct that? I wouldn't want James Juan on this. I don't know. I don't know. No shade.

[Jamie Loftus]

But who would direct this? Ron Howard.

[Millie Decherico]

Ron Howard just pops into the, like, fifth fucking conjuring movie and is like, let me. Let me try my head at this.

[Jamie Loftus]

He's a chameleon. Wow. Well, fascinating. Thank you so much for informing me, Millie, and connecting these two disparate events that I didn't even know were connected. Oh, spooky. Well, fabulous. Well, that's the end of movie news. Maybe forever.

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah, the last one.

[Jamie Loftus]

We still have not had any word from people who have tried out Bradley Cooper is Philly Cheesesteak. So please, please do what you can out there, New Yorkers. Okay, we've dilly dally for too long. We need to open up the film diary to talk about the movies we've seen in the past week. Millie, open it up. What have you watched? Now, full disclosure, the last episode we recorded all but two days before this one, so there might not have been a bunch of time to watch movies, but let me hear what you got.

[Millie Decherico]

No, well, okay, this is what I'm saying. I'm about to preface this by saying this is easily the worst film diary that I've brought to the podcast in our 18 episodes. I haven't watched a movie.

[Jamie Loftus]

Okay?

[Millie Decherico]

Technically, that's okay. Okay. However, I have watched a short film.

[Jamie Loftus]

That counts.

[Millie Decherico]

This is so dumb. So my aforementioned friend Eddie Ray, who told me about the Annabelle curse, he.

[Jamie Loftus]

Seems like he's in the know.

[Millie Decherico]

Oh, he's. Listen, Eddie Ray is the king, okay? Everybody go follow him on Instagram. He is. He is an absolute king, okay? He is a producer over at Adult Swim, has been for years. He's, like, obsessed with Halloween, obsessed with ghosts and aliens and horror movies and K Pop, which I'm about. He's the one that, you know, basically indicted me into this world.

[Jamie Loftus]

He's your guide.

[Millie Decherico]

He is my guide. And on that note, he and I, the other night, watched. So I did not know this because I don't know a ton of bands, right? I'm only starting to get my footing in this whole world. And it's been a year. By the way, have I told you my origin story of getting into K pop music? I tell you about this? So I went to a party at his house. This was last year, last March. And he was having a little K pop party. And he was. All of his friends were there. He was showing us all these videos. Before that, I had, like, no idea what the it was. And the only reason why I remember this is because I caught Covid at that party for the first time.

[Jamie Loftus]

Sounds like you caught some other kind of fever, too.

[Millie Decherico]

Well, I've been telling people fever that I have long Covid symptoms. And the main one is that I like K Pop.

[Jamie Loftus]

I wonder if Dr. Fauci has ascribed that as one of the long Covid symptoms.

[Millie Decherico]

So I'm at his house the other night, and he's like, did you know about there's an entire K pop vampire band?

[Jamie Loftus]

I did see some posts. I think I caught a little coffin on stage. A tiny, tiny coffin on stage.

[Millie Decherico]

So this shit is wild. Okay, so there's this band called Enhypen, or In. In Hypen. No, no, Enhypen. Enhypen. Anyway, Enhypen. It looks like En. Hypn. In Hypen.

[Tom Noonan]

Right.

[Millie Decherico]

So this is a band of. I don't know how many people are in the band, but they're vampires and there's all this like lore and stuff and they, and they just came out with these photos that. I mean, they're insane. They.

[Jamie Loftus]

I love this.

[Millie Decherico]

True, true. Like, it's like kind of bordering on like the fetish world. I have to say. I was like, damn. And then I quickly. He quickly told me that there's this other new band that has come out called and Team and they are werewolves. They're a werewolf K pop band. And there's apparently a video on YouTube that links the two bands together. Like one is coming out of the frame and then. And the other one's coming into the frame or something.

[Jamie Loftus]

This feels like some sort of continuation of the Twilight Saga.

[Millie Decherico]

Okay. I was like, if this is what K pop is gonna be, I'm in. I'm like, if.

[Jamie Loftus]

Listen, if they got it, you got bit.

[Millie Decherico]

If there's an alien K pop band, I'm in there. I'm like, how many other. I mean, what do we, what do we got? Like mummies can we do?

[Jamie Loftus]

Like, that would be incredible.

[Millie Decherico]

K pop mummies. I don't know. I'm just like obsessed with this really like high concept that's going on right now.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Millie Decherico]

So I. He had to show me. There's this short film that this band Enhypen has done. And it's like the name of it is called like Untold Concept Cinema. And the whole reason why I'm even bringing it into the film diary is because the word cinema is in the. So I'm like, it's cinema, but it's this 11 minute, about 12 minute short film where the members of this K pop band are traveling through this kind of like no vampire zone that is like, it's very dingy. It kind of looks like the beginning of Terminator. It's like they're definitely in like downtown la. They're all in like one like Chevy suburban van. And they're basically trying to get to the other side of the no vampire zone.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh man.

[Millie Decherico]

And. And then they, their, their, their Suburban gets stopped by these like, you know, militaristic future, you know, anti vampire hunters. And then there's like a war. I mean, dude, it is this.

[Jamie Loftus]

I feel like this could. This should be a movie.

[Millie Decherico]

See, I think it should too.

[Jamie Loftus]

A feature.

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah. So. And Like I looked up the guy that directed it and he's directed other things. Like I think he's done a couple things on Netflix. But I'm like, oh, this is like a fully realized cinema.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Millie Decherico]

Experience. Like, I was like. And they're just like, they're getting. There's parts where they're getting like shot by bullets. But of course they're vampires, so they're not feeling the. Feeling the bullet holes. I mean, I was like, I'm blown away. I'm blown away by this information.

[Jamie Loftus]

So incredible. What was the name of it again?

[Millie Decherico]

It's called Untold. Now I don't know if concept cinema is actually in the title. It's in the title on YouTube. But look it up.

[Jamie Loftus]

It's made by concept cinema. Maybe.

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah, there's like, there's like this one section where like somebody radios or something. It's like seven confirmed vampires.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh my God. Untold. That's so funny. That's like usually like the biopic or like it's like a biography of like a diva or something. I don't know for.

[Millie Decherico]

Okay, like, let me tell you right now, this is one of my favorite things about K pop music. I definitely think there's something that's lost in translation. But the ever. I swear to God, every K pop band has an album that is literally like the most dramatic fucking title. And it's usually like a word, colon, a phrase, or like, or like two words. Like two words, colon, one word. It'll be like the star chapter, colon, Truth, untold. Or like, or like, you know, map of the soul, colon, tear. And you're just like, I gotta tell you, it sounds great, but it means nothing.

[Jamie Loftus]

Like, I don't know what this nonsense. Words.

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah. So anyway, I hope that they all come out with this movie. It's like a full length movie. They name it something funny like that. And I can follow the. The lore of this vampire. K pop.

[Jamie Loftus]

All right, very good.

[Millie Decherico]

So that's it for me again. Very, very, very light week.

[Jamie Loftus]

I had a pretty light week. 2 I saw 2024's the Fall Guy with Ryan Gosling and Emily Blunt. It was fun. It's directed by David Leitch, who did. I believe he co directed the first, John Wick. And then he did movies like Atomic Blonde and Bullet Train. And those are all pretty fun action movies. And this is a fun action movie.

[Millie Decherico]

So I thought you were gonna say David Lean, the director of Lawrence of Brain.

[Jamie Loftus]

David Lean. He's 118 and he's directing these cartoonish action Movies. No, it was good. It was fun. And then I watched a movie that I really enjoyed with Ben Affleck. It came out in 2016. It's called the Accountant. Have you seen this movie?

[Millie Decherico]

No. And like actually I want to.

[Jamie Loftus]

It is pretty. It's like pretty over the top, campy genre. It feels like something that would have come out in like the 80s, you know. And you know, I don't know if it is necessarily complementary to the neurodivergent community, but he is supposed to be on the spectrum and that gives him special, you know, brain abilities to be an amazing accountant. But at the same time he's also learned all these martial arts and military skills and he's very efficient but socially awkward and it's kind of fun. There's a sequel and I can't wait to watch it.

[Millie Decherico]

I. I get every bit of information in my life from TikTok. As you know, I had no idea that Ben Affleck is fluent in Spanish.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yes, he's fluent. I watch those TikToks a lot. Too good for him. His mom, I believe, is fluent in Spanish. And maybe from somewhere in South America. I could be incorrect about that.

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah, they lived in Mexico or something. I don't know.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, there's something like that. And it's funny because I don't think JLo is fluent in Spanish, but Ben Affleck is.

[Millie Decherico]

So I gotta tell you, you know, my old co host of my old podcast, Daniel Henderson was a huge Ben Affleck fan and we talked about him quite a bit on that podcast and I at the time didn't know this information and I feel like if I had known about that, I would have retroactively been crazy for him just like she is.

[Jamie Loftus]

I have a soft spot for, for Ben.

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah, I never did until meeting Danielle and now I'm like watching him speak Spanish. I was quite frankly blown away from a loins perspective.

[Jamie Loftus]

If you know well from a loin's perspective. Okay, very good from that vantage point. But that's it, that's all I watched. So. Okay, let's close up those diaries.

[Millie Decherico]

Oh good. Oh my God, these vampire K poppers.

[Casey O'Brien]

What I put into my body on a day to day basis matters to me. I took a food allergy test and discovered I was sensitive to certain ingredients including what was in my protein powder. The then I found organ. It was a game changer for my health. Organ is an excellent source of complete protein, 21 grams and has all nine essential amino acids. It's an easy way for me to incorporate clean nutrition into my diet. Plus, organ has less than 1 gram of sugar per serving and is made without soy, which is also one of the ingredients I avoid in my diet. With organ, I don't have to compromise on taste for good clean nutrition. My post workout shakes now include both Organs Organic Plant Protein Powder for muscle support and recovery and their collagen peptides to help support my joints, skin, hair and nails. Shop now [e-mail] and selected retailers.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and safeway now through June 17th. Shop in store or online for your favorite personal care Items and save $5 when you spend $15 or more. Stock up on items like Dove Body Wash, Degree Motion Sense Deodorant, Tresemme Hairspray, Dove Shampoo, Dove Bar Soap, Dove Men's Body and face Wash and Dollar Shave Club blades, and save $5 when you spend $15 or more. Hurry in before these deals are gone. Offer ends June 17. Promotions may vary. Restrictions apply. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

[Millie Decherico]

Looking for excitement?

[Jamie Loftus]

Chumba Casino is here.

[Millie Decherico]

Play anytime.

[Jamie Loftus]

Play anywhere. Play on the train. Play at the store.

[Millie Decherico]

Play at home. Play when you're bored. Play today for your chance to win and get daily bonuses when you log in.

[Jamie Loftus]

So what are you waiting for? Don't delay. Chumba Casino is free to play.

[Tom Noonan]

Experience social gameplay like never before. Go to Chumba Casino right now to.

[Millie Decherico]

Play hundreds of games, including online slots.

[Tom Noonan]

Bingo, Slingo and more. Live the chumba [e-mail] no purchase necessary.

[Millie Decherico]

VGW group void where prohibited by law. 21 + terms and conditions apply.

[Jamie Loftus]

Moving on to our main discussion, Millie Ooh, what a good movie we're talking about today. Heat from 1995. Now, you have said that you're a huge Heat fan. Why?

[Millie Decherico]

Why? Okay, a lot of it has to do with the director, Michael Mann. I always, like, hesitate to ask this question now because it's like, even though you might not have been around for like a certain era of things, you know, Hulu and Netflix and all these things happen that you can watch anything that you want. But I was a child during the Miami Vice era. And Miami Vice, for people who don't remember the original TV show, was a sort of like, I gotta tell you, I think it's sort of one of the first sort of like prestige television y type of things. Right?

[Jamie Loftus]

Sure.

[Millie Decherico]

And you know, like kind of that whole 80s era of this kind of like, I don't know, elevated television. But Michael Mann was an Executive producer. And he was a huge influence on the way that it looked and the way that it sounded. And it was like. And it was a show that featured Don Johnson, the father of Dakota Johnson and Philip Michael Thomas. And they were like a pair of, like, detectives working in Miami. And, you know, they were trying to bust all these, like, drug cartel types. And Edward James Olmos was their chief, who. He was my favorite character because he was very, like, by the book, stoic type. I remember this TV show coming on now. It was very much geared towards adults, even though the concept of it was, like, supposed to be, you know, it was very influenced by mtv. So it was, like, one of the first shows to play popular music. So it was, you know, they licensed, like, all this popular music, and it was always playing, like, you know, new wave bands and stuff. And then, you know, it was very art deco Miami, like, whites and pinks and blues. Like, I read somewhere that Michael Mann was basically like, no browns or oranges on the show. It's gotta. We gotta have, like, a bright, you know, pastel palette. But the show itself was very. I feel, like, very much like, kind of set the table for maybe something like, Heat and certainly stuff, you know, like, I mean, I think he did Manhunter around the same time that Miami Vice was on. But, you know, he had already done Thief, and Thief was like, basically Miami Vice. So it's kind of like a connective tissue between, like, some of his earlier stuff and his later stuff. But to get to your original question, that shit, that world that he's created with, like, the visuals and the kind of characters that he puts in these worlds is so appealing to me. And I think it's because it feels like going back to our couple episodes back when we talked about Alain Delon and Le Samurai, it feels very French crime stuff. Do you know what I'm saying? Yes, because there's this kind of, like, methodical character study thing happening. I mean, I'm sure there's explosions and there's gunfights and there's, like, a lot of, like, high drama stuff happening. But for the most part, it's more about, like, the interior lives of these criminals and these cops. And it's more. I don't know, there's, like. The pacing of it is really attractive to me. It kind of shows you kind of the inner workings of things and how to set up crimes and heists and what the cops do in order to bus people and, I don't know, just like, how the sausage is made type of stuff. And I just love that. And when you pair that with, again, his sort of, like, very appealing visual style, I mean, I just, like, go crazy for those Michael Mann crime movies. And I feel like Heat was kind of the big one. I mean, he's. I mean, it became a classic, and it's influenced, like, so many other directors. So I was. It's kind of irresistible, even though I did not watch it when it first came out. So.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, your connection to, like, French criminal movies, like, they are. He is sort of existing in that tradition in the way that it's like, what if a criminal, like, loves poetry? Or, like, if a criminal is, like, thoughtful and has emotional depth, it's like, kind of like posing that sort of question with the types of criminals that he has in his movies. And, like. Yeah, like, you talked about the colors of Michael Mann movies. There is just, like, a Michael Mann vibe. There was a shot in Heat, and I think it's in, like, downtown LA at night, and a car is just turning onto an empty street. And, like, the light on the street is, like, blue at night. And it's just like, this just feels like a Michael Mann world. And we talk about that all the time. With movies like them being. What makes them so enticing and exciting is being able to enter a very specific world that feels a certain way. And Michael Mann certainly has a world he's created, and his universe feels a certain way. That's, like, totally intoxicating.

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah. And I gotta say. And the world, too, is not too precious, if you know what I'm saying.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Millie Decherico]

Like, it feels like it's lived in, but it's because you're, you know, obviously talk about people like Wes Anderson or even Hitchcock, where you're like, okay, these are, like, very methodical, distinct, Curated. Exactly. Curated worlds. But his world is curated. But it's not. It still feels natural and not artificial. And, like, that's the thing about Manhunter, which Michael Mann also directed. Manhunter, 1986, which I talked about last week in my film diary a little bit because I fell asleep during it. And. But I've seen it many times. Okay.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yes.

[Millie Decherico]

That movie looks incredible. And that's why I'm like, okay, again, this is, like, a consistent style. But again, it feels very 80s to me, in a way. Like, even in Heat.

[Jamie Loftus]

Neon.

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah, even in Heat. There's a different color palette happening. In Heat, it's a little darker, but there is like a. I don't know, some sort of, like, patina to it that feels Like a Michael Mann patina. Does that make sense?

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Millie Decherico]

Well, I was wondering, do you want to give a synopsis to people?

[Jamie Loftus]

I do. I have a very short. You know, this is a long movie. It's 2 hours and 50 minutes. But it is kind of a. It's not an uncomplicated plot because a lot happens. It's almost like a novel, this movie. But it's. The basic structure of it is pretty simple. Neil McCauley, played by Robert De Niro, is a true professional, professional thief. He runs a very tight crew and takes down huge scores. He is like a pro, very serious, very professional. Vincent Hanna, Al Pacino. He is an equally obsessed police detective who is trying to take down McCauley's crew. These men are both insane. And there's an awareness that there's a huge score coming up. Robert De Niro's trying to pull it off. Al Pacino's trying to thwart him. Who will win? Also, they have dysfunctional relationships with women and they are trying to handle those while they handle their professional lives.

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah, it's. The whole movie to me seems very like Shakespearean or kind of Greek tragedy. Like, because it's like here you've got like, you know, the good versus the bad and they're kind of cat mousing. But there's also kind of this weird appreciation for the other's work.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Millie Decherico]

Because they're both kind of like the same type of guy, right?

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. And I mean, there's the famous scene where Al Pacino and Robert De Niro get coffee together, like in the middle of this movie. And they like. I mean, it's very obvious to the audience and to the characters themselves. They're like, we have such respect for each other. If we weren't doing this, I think we'd be best friends. You know, it just seems like, no, it's a very. Goes unsaid.

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah. No, it's a very like, game recognized game thing happening.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

I want my kids to have a healthy relationship with food, which means avoiding junk food as much as possible and giving them things that are good for them. That's why I love giving my kids organ. It's convenient, real nutrition that checks all the boxes. For me, it provides a good source of complete protein to keep my kids going strong and giving them energy to do all the things that they want. It offers over 20 essential vitamins and minerals. Organ is an excellent source of vitamins B12, D and zinc to support immune health. It's USDA certified organic and has 25% less sugar than the leading kids. High protein nutritional shakes. One of the best things that I love about orgain is that I do not have to force my kids to drink or eat anything from Orgain because the second they tried their shakes they loved them. Jace loves the fruity cereal flavor. Jolie loves the vanilla and chocolate. So shop Orgain kids now [e-mail] and selected retailers.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway this spring. Stock up on all your personal care favorites and earn 4 times points. Now through June 17th. Shop in store online for deals on all your favorite personal care items like Pantene shampoo, Native body spray, deodorant, Secret body spray, Venus razors, Always pads, head and shoulder shampoo and native deodorant and earn 4 times points. Then use those points for discounts on groceries or fuel. You don't want to miss these deals. Offer ends June 17th. Promotions may vary. Restrictions apply. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

[Tom Noonan]

Get this Adults with financial literacy skills have 82% more wealth than those who don't. From swimming lessons to piano classes, us parents invest in so many things to enrich our kids lives. But are we investing in their future financial success? With Greenlight you can teach your kids financial literacy skills like earning, saving and investing.

[Millie Decherico]

And this investment costs less than that. After school treatment, start prioritizing their financial.

[Tom Noonan]

Education and future today with a risk.

[Millie Decherico]

Free [e-mail] iheart greenlight.com iheart so God, there is a lot of meat on this bone. So I apologize if I go a little ham. Get it. So I want to go back to kind of what I first talked about sort of near the opening of the episode about he and sort of Michael Mann movies being dude movies.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yes. What are your concept of a dude movie?

[Millie Decherico]

What are your thoughts on this? Do you believe in dude movies? I mean I know we don't believe in them. Believe in them. Right. But you know, in that kind of.

[Jamie Loftus]

Like do I believe they exist?

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah. Or like, you know, is there have there been times in your life where maybe you've had like girlfriends or something? Or you're like female family members that have been like, I'm not watching. That's a guy movie. I'm not watching that shit.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. I think there is certainly a type of movie that men predominantly love and seems to be made for men. A movie like Heat is such a beloved dude movie. Like I feel like the most annoying guy. This is his favorite movie.

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah. Or like Scarface or the Godfather movies. Yeah, All Pacino.

[Jamie Loftus]

Anything that Pacino's in. Yes. You know, when you say a dude movie, it's like a movie that is, like, cool and stylish in some capacity and maybe does have, like. Actually, I think this is part of it, too, that a dude movie has to have some sort of emotional depth to it so that a guy can really feel invested, be like, whoa, I'm, like, feeling feelings.

[Millie Decherico]

Literally. That's it. Like, that's what I was trying to get you to say in a way. I was like, these are movies that put dudes in their feelings so fast.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Millie Decherico]

And it's interesting because, you know. Okay, first of all, when we say. When we say this concept, I mean, we're obviously, we're kind of going on a stereotype of kind of these, like, CIS het dudes who are just kind of, again, like, in their feelings about a movie that is not actually about people who are emotional. It's about, like, them trying to be emotional via other things, like crime and money and stuff like that. So that's, to me, I think what the dude movie to me has always symbolized, which is just, like, guys who watch these movies and are able to finally feel things in some way.

[Jamie Loftus]

I also think, though, like, if you say, like, your favorite movie is Heat, that doesn't betray a masculinity. You can be like, oh, yeah, totally, dudes, dude. It's kind of like a secret that they feel things when they watch it. But if you say, like, you know, a. More, you know, if you say your favorite movie is, like, Portrait of a Lady on Fire says something about you emotionally. You're like, oh, you are a thoughtful person. Or you have a lot of emotional depth to you. You have a lot of feelings, and you're open with your feelings. But if you say your favorite movie's Heat, it's kind of like you can still be like, oh, I'm just like, I'm a man's man. It still has the shield of being a manly man. You know what I'm saying?

[Millie Decherico]

Right, right. And. And that's. It's. Yeah, it's very much like a. Okay. Like, here I'm. My masculinity is protected because my favorite movie is Heat, which I think obviously now, I mean, we're talking about, like, 90s. Like, mid-90s, I guess we were still. Still caring about that a lot. I think that's slowly being dismantled. Thank you very much. Modern masculinity. But it's like that feeling of, like. So I think that that is what made me not want to watch Heat for a long time, of course. And it really wasn't until I was older that I actually watched it and that I began to really love just the Michael Mann movies. Like. And then I, of course, you know, I kind of got into French crime films and noir and stuff. I kind of opened the world up for some of this. Even though these are not issues that I deal with on a regular basis. I don't deal with or care about men trying to have feelings with their friend who's a cop and they're criminal. You know what I mean? It's just that very. I guess I don't really have a ton to grab onto in that way, but I find it fascinating somehow. I love the character studies and that kind of stuff. And there is something, like, super, super fun about Pacino and De Niro together, right?

[Jamie Loftus]

Absolutely. I mean, that was a big thing when this came out, was that they were advertising. It's like they're actually. This is the first time they've ever been on screen together, these two titans of cinema. And they've been in. They were in the same movie. They're both in The Godfather 2, but they never share a scene together. And they're in sort of similar types of movies in the 70s and 80s and stuff. And. And so to have them kind of face off, it's a big deal, you know, and it is this sort of. These sort of two titans of masculinity, in some ways.

[Millie Decherico]

Italian masculinity.

[Jamie Loftus]

Italian masculinity. And I will say, Al Pacino is a wild man in this movie.

[Millie Decherico]

I was gonna say, first of all, I have to ask you, are you a Pacino or De Niro boy?

[Jamie Loftus]

I'm a much. I'm a huge Pacino boy. I'm a Pachicheerleader, a Pachichi cheerleader. You know, I like Robert De Niro, but I might get struck dead by saying this, but he does kind of the same thing a lot of the time. And, like, I feel like Al Pacino, he is so wild in some of these scenes. It's kind of like, does he know the camera's rolling? Like, he just seems so insane in some of these scenes. Like. And he's taking such big swings that it's, like, almost outrageous.

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah, he has, like. This is the thing about Pacino's acting is that he seems like he's being possessed a lot of times. Like, you can tell his eyes go off to the side, like, when he's, like, in this moment. And you're like, oh, like he's gonna explode. I don't even think he really knows what he's gonna say. Like, he's kind of being possessed maybe by the Annabelle doll, but, you know, whatever. Like.

[Jamie Loftus]

But get the Annabelle doll away from Al Pacino. He's become.

[Millie Decherico]

It's.

[Jamie Loftus]

It's made him do crazy things.

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah. And, like, you're right about. Well, I won't say you're right about De Niro being kind of one note, but he is, like, he has this. He's an archetype. Right. Which a lot of people have glommed onto over.

[Jamie Loftus]

And I like him. I don't dislike him, you know, But I just think about that scene with, like, Albert. I think he is this, like, criminal they check in on who, like, kind of out in the boonies. Do you remember that scene where they're, like, setting up a meeting with his brother at a club? This criminal Albert, and, like, Al Pacino. I think it's Albert. Is that his name?

[Millie Decherico]

You mean Tone Loke's brother?

[Jamie Loftus]

Tone Loke's brother that they had the first meeting with where he was like, I was just gonna come see you, Vincent. And he's like, albert. Albert. Ho. Huh? Huh? He's, like, just bouncing around standing up. He's like, don't fucking waste my time.

[Millie Decherico]

Ho.

[Jamie Loftus]

Huh? He's, like, dancing around, and it's like, almost like he's not in the scene. Like, it's like he's doing such crazy. He's kind of just, like, looking around, bouncing in his chair. And I mean, it's. He's. It's so nutty.

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah. I mean, like, here's the vibe. He's always been this way. If you watch, like, Dog Day Afternoon, that's basically him going, attica. Attica. But in a different. Different time, in a different era. Like, he's. He's been this type of actor his entire career. And so I guess when I do watch Heat, I'm just, like, reminded of how much I enjoy his stupid shit. Like, I'm just like, I love this stupid shit. Like, whatever it is.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Millie Decherico]

I mean, it's actually. There are times where I'm like, this is good acting. There are times where I'm like, he's possessed by the Annabelle doll. And this is fucking weird and funny. So I wanted to ask a little bit about this because I have to. It's just my. My nature to want to talk about this. But so everybody in this movie, all the men in this movie, for the most part, maybe not Tom Noonan, which we'll talk about in a second. We brought him up.

[Jamie Loftus]

Another Tom Noonan appearance on our podcast.

[Millie Decherico]

Tom Noonan working in Master Control in the archives of the old cable television building. They all have, for the most part, women in their lives, like wives and girlfriends, that kind of stuff. Now, the scenario is you've got De Niro's crew who. Who feature actors such as Danny Trejo, Tom Sizemore, Val Kilmer, most famously, Right?

[Jamie Loftus]

Yep.

[Millie Decherico]

And then there's the Nazi guy. We'll talk about him later. Because he sucks. Yeah. She said mean girl.

[Jamie Loftus]

No, Wayne.

[Millie Decherico]

Wayne girl, that. You called him a mean girl, like, to say the least. Casey.

[Jamie Loftus]

He's a bit of a mean.

[Millie Decherico]

So there's actually this really famous scene of all of them going out to dinner. And it's kind of like, okay, everybody and his crew comes to dinner. Their wives and their kids are there. It's this very, like, you know, nice celebratory kind of event. And then you've got De Niro's character, right? Macaulay. Now, he sort of famously is single for this movie. He eventually meets a woman, but up until that point, he lives this kind of very austere, no attachments, get in and out kind of life. Like, it's kind of his famous line in the. In the film, which is, don't let yourself get attached to anything you are not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds flat if you feel heat around the corner, right? So this is why this motherfucker has no furniture in his house. This is why he has no partner. This is why he's got no kids. And he's just, like, ready to go. Because he's like, I don't. Attachments weigh me down and get you in trouble. If you're trying to be a master criminal, you can't have your shit, right? But at some point, he wants a girlfriend. I mean, let's get serious. He just wants a girlfriend. He's looking around at this dinner. All of his partners have partners, and everyone's getting diamond rings and the kids are giggling and all this shit. And now he's like, oh, I'm a little lonely. So he ends up meeting this woman, Edie, who is played by Amy Brennaman. Amy Brennaman. Now, this woman he meets in a bookstore, effectively, she works at the bookstore. They're at a lunch counter. And she's like, hey, come in often. What's your name? What you do? This and that. And at first he's like, like, what you trying to know about me? Lady, like, I ain't telling you. But then he softens, and then they start dating effectively and that it moves on. Obviously, this is a big storyline in the film for him, but this is the thing that I wanted to talk about in terms of the male characters in this movie, but also the male characters in a lot of Michael Mann movies, which is that they seem to be men who want to, like, leave the business to have a stable life. And usually that stable life has to deal with women and wives and girlfriends, which I think is a very interesting theme that reoccurs. And there's definitely different scenarios going on in Heat. Cause, like, for example, the Val Kilmer character has. Wife is played by Ashley Judd, and she. They have. They have a kid, a small child, and she's just like, all right, you. You. You're a criminal. Then you come home. Then you come home and you make, you know, you gamble all your money away. When are we gonna get a better life? We live in a hole apartment. Like, let's get it together. And he loves her very much and doesn't want to leave it, doesn't want her to leave him. But he is kind of unable to work on himself, I guess.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Millie Decherico]

And then you've got, you know, obviously Macaulay being this, like, very, like, one foot out the door type of guy, doesn't want a girlfriend, eventually wanting a girlfriend. And then you've got on the other side, this Al Pacino character who is effectively in a relationship. He's the stepdad to a woman's, you know, teenage daughter who's played by Natalie Portman. And you can tell he wants that life. He wants to be married and wants. Especially wants to be the dad to this Natalie Portman, but his job is too important. And so this is. I think what I want to talk about is that idea of, like, the push and pull for these men who are like, but I love my job, but I want my woman, and the woman's unhappy. And what do I do? I can't. I'm obsessed. I. I can't. I have to answer my pager. I can't be at the recital or whatever. And so, I don't know. I mean, to have that come up. Cause it also comes up in Thief. Right?

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Millie Decherico]

With the James Caan character who also is, like, trying to date or trying to have love in his life. So, I mean, don't you think that's a weird thing to kind of keep coming up in different films?

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, it is interesting because. It's also interesting because that's Such sort of a normal problem.

[Millie Decherico]

Yes.

[Jamie Loftus]

That, you know, the balance of family and your career and it's. And I feel like a lot of men sort of think like, well, my avenue to a life that can be easier in the future and I can then give more time to my family. The avenue to get to that place, that imaginary place in the future is through working harder, through my job.

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

I will get more money, and then I'll be able to take more time off and be with my family more. But that's sort of a fallacy in real life and also in these movies.

[Millie Decherico]

Right.

[Jamie Loftus]

You know, they can never. There's no future place where it will be easier to be with the woman of your dreams. You know, you have to kind of do that now, not at some future point, you know?

[Millie Decherico]

Right. Yeah. The. The interesting thing, I think, to be honest, I think the Pacino relationship is maybe the most interesting because, I mean, there's a lot of stuff that happens. There's a lot of stuff. By the way, trigger warning and spoiler alert. Right. There is a scene towards the end of the film where the Natalie Portman character, who is, again, his kind of stepping stepdaughter, the. The daughter of this woman that he's either married to or dating, and, you know, basically her real father is, like, nowhere to be found. And she just seems very, you know, unmoored by all of this trauma. Let's get serious. And she ends up attempting to unive herself in a bathtub in Al Pacino's character's hotel, which is sort of an.

[Jamie Loftus]

Interesting choice because Al Pacino has effectively been kicked out of his own home and is staying at a hotel. And we just have to assume that Natalie Portman looked up where he was staying and then decided to end her life in the bathroom of the hotel where he was staying.

[Millie Decherico]

And I gotta tell you, I mean, I've seen this movie a few times now. Man, it is so tragic when. That I was like, this kind of, like, too much. Well, and like, this is. I think the. The constant runner in the film for his character is that he's. He's basically like. I think he feels very tenderly. And there are times where, like, there are scenes in the film where he acts very human towards family members, his own family members, but the family members of people who have died in the film. Like, he's. And you can tell he's, like, rocked by all of his. All of the job stuff that he has to have where he has to, like, deal with horrible crimes and. And it's Almost like he know. He's almost like he knows that this is messing with him and that it's. And it's like hurting him on, like, a psychic, emotional mental level, right?

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Millie Decherico]

But he almost can't help it. Like, he's like, well, this is my life. My life is that I'm so fucking badly damaged by my job that I cannot have stability.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. There's a scene that kind of made me, like, laugh, but it illustrated how obsessed he is with his job. I think it's the one where he comes home and his wife is getting ready to go out, and he's like, where are we going? Where are you going? And she's like, I'm going out. And she, like, leaves and goes out. And he had just come home from work, but he kind of sees that she's going out, and he's like, okay, cool. I can go work some more then. And he leaves and, like, hops in a copter, you know, like, to go, like. But it's like he can't even. It's like she really is holding him back in a way. If she wasn't there, what would he be? He would be even worse, you know?

[Millie Decherico]

Yes. Yeah. I mean, there are times where. Yeah. That balance is kind of. Kind of nutty.

[Jamie Loftus]

I not. Couldn't be me. I would never work that much.

[Millie Decherico]

Really? You would quit this podcast to go and hang out with your wife and your daughter? I mean, I'd let you. To be completely honest with you. I want you to have work life balance right now.

[Jamie Loftus]

I do. But, you know, the game, the podcast game, it's just. I'm addicted to it.

[Millie Decherico]

I know. I keep paging you 911 to be like, answer my phone calls. All right, we got to talk about. I'm sorry. Now that I'm on this tip, we got to talk about Edie.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Millie Decherico]

And this whole fan.

[Jamie Loftus]

In your notes. In your notes, it says, ain't no fucking way.

[Millie Decherico]

This fandango, dude. This is the one thing about Heat that I literally cannot get over, which is this fucking book selling graphic design.

[Jamie Loftus]

Graphic designer.

[Millie Decherico]

Who fucks Macaulay on the first night after he was sort of mean to her at the time.

[Jamie Loftus]

Well, I was gonna. They meet at the coffee shop, and he has a book on metals that he bought at her bookstore. And she's like, what are you reading? And he's like, fuck you, Karen. What are you. What are you talking to me for? And I'm like, it's amazing. He went from that to sleeping with that woman in one Night. Like, he's such an. Like, so he's like, stay out of my business. And she's like, jesus Christ. Sorry.

[Millie Decherico]

Listen, I. I'm probably as hard up as anyone as anyone at this point in my life, but if that. I would not never sleep with a guy if he was that mean to me at the beginning. Like, that is so crazy. I would have had to have really.

[Jamie Loftus]

He was really in the negative. He really.

[Millie Decherico]

You know what? I need a second date with this guy. Cuz he was kind of an asshole to me when I asked him about his book.

[Jamie Loftus]

Not even kind of an asshole, but like a. Like, it's like he was about to fight her. I feel like she's like, eating soup at a counter.

[Millie Decherico]

It's like, yo, Edie, feel this guy out a little bit. Okay. Come on, girl. Like, Jesus Christ. So there's that thing where I'm just like, okay. She. I don't know, clearly was like it, right? So then there's the whole, like. Her whole backstory is so insane because it's like, she's from Appalachia, has the worst.

[Jamie Loftus]

It's way too complicated. Because he asks, where's your family from? And she said, scotland. And then they came to Appalachia in the 1700s. I was like, why do we need to know this about the character?

[Millie Decherico]

I was like, so you are not from Scotland at all? Like, when people are like, oh, I'm Irish. Like, my family came to America like in the 1400s. Or I'm like, okay. Like, that's a long time ago.

[Jamie Loftus]

Sure.

[Millie Decherico]

Aren't you just from North Carolina? Just say it.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, exactly.

[Millie Decherico]

But. So she's Appalachian, has the worst Southern accent, by the way. Sorry, no, no, shade to.

[Jamie Loftus]

She's Appalachian, went to Parsons in New York City and is now in Los Angeles for the graphic design, but is working at Hennessy and Ingalls, the famed architecture bookstore in Los Angeles. It's like, what. Why is this infer. I feel like they could have cut out a little bit of that.

[Millie Decherico]

Oh, Parsons. I forgot she went to Parsons. That is so funny. But this is the thing, is that the whole basis of her character is to give De Niro some, like, human stakes, right? It's like to get his ass on the ground, put some roots down because he's so fucking insane about it. Like, he doesn't have furniture in his house. He doesn't have furniture. Val Kilmer shows up after he's gotten kicked out of his own house by Ashley Judd. He's lying on the fucking floor taking a Nap? Yeah, I. Listen, if I went to your house, went to visit you in Minneapolis, and you didn't have anywhere for me to sleep, I'd be like, my friend is fucked up, dude.

[Jamie Loftus]

Like, oh, yes, you would be like. You would think I'm Christian Bale, an American Psycho or something. Okay, spoiler alert for the ending here. I do think. Not that this is a weakness, but it does make me kind of, like, question why he did what he did. So the end of the movie is essentially Robert De Niro, not everyone in his crew, but Robert De Niro gets away and he has the money. He did it. He got away. And he's about to get on a plane, but he finds out at the last second that Wayne Grow, the guy who sold him and his crew out, is holed up at this hotel. And this is sort of bait that Al Pacino has dangled, hoping he would take it. But it's sort of confusing why he. He's such a professional and he's showed so many times before that he's willing to, like, cut everything off just for the score, you know? And yet he goes after this guy and kills him. And that is eventually his downfall. And he's not doing that. I think it would have made sense if he ended up doing something in order to be with Edie, and that got him killed. It doesn't make sense, sort of from a story point of view, why he did that or why that got him killed. Does that make sense, what I'm saying? Like, it's like, I feel like he would have been more professional and just walked away from that situation. And he was so good about walking away. Why couldn't he walk away from this one?

[Millie Decherico]

Well, because the whole movie is about guys who just can't help it. They gotta. They gotta sabotage their own happiness in order to get revenge or get their thing. And it's like, that's what makes it so Shakespearean and so kind of Greek tragedy, like. But I want to put a pin in this for a brief moment. I want to go back two steps.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yes.

[Millie Decherico]

Why is this bitch going to New Zealand with this guy?

[Jamie Loftus]

Yes. Why did Edie. She finds out, like, the night before she's to leave New Zealand that, hey, I am not a metal salesman. I am actually a murderous criminal. And, you know, like, all those hundreds of people that are dead in downtown la, that was me. Let's go to New Zealand. And she's mad at first.

[Millie Decherico]

Oh, yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

But she forgives, it seems, and is willing to go to New Zealand.

[Millie Decherico]

This is some fucking looking for Mr. Goodbar. Shit, I can't even tell you because I'm like, okay. She's pissed on the. On a cliff, by the way. Like, they're having a conversation in the dark on the side of a mountain about this guy being a violent, disturbing criminal. And she's just like, I'm so pissed at him. I can't believe.

[Jamie Loftus]

Don't kiss me. I'm mad at you.

[Millie Decherico]

God, I thought you were a metal salesman. What the fuck? I'm like, first of all, I would never see that motherfucker in the nighttime. I'm. I'm scared of him. I'm. I am officially scared of him. But apparently she's got, like, no street smarts whatsoever. She's like, okay, fine. I guess I accept that you're a horrible, violent criminal who's been to jail and let's hug it out or whatever.

[Jamie Loftus]

I killed multiple people today.

[Millie Decherico]

Today. In the same day that we're having this conversation. And then, like, so there's that where I just was like, okay. She accepted this shit real fast, which I just very much believe is fandango baloney malarkey. Okay? But I get that you have to, like, move this fucking story along or whatever. Then he's like, baby, I gotta run. Like, I gotta run. Jon Voight is setting us up. He's gonna put us on a plane in New Zealand. Are you coming or not? And she's like, listen, maybe her job at the architectural bookstore ain't all that. And maybe she can do graphic design from anywhere. She can work from home, from anywhere making her CD covers, but there is no way in hell I believe that she's going to New Zealand with this guy, even if she was scared of him, which is clearly not. But I'm just saying, this is so insane to me. I'm like, there's no way. She just met the guy. She literally just met the guy.

[Jamie Loftus]

It ended up being okay for her, I think. I hope.

[Millie Decherico]

I want to get back, though, to your point. Your original point about.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yes.

[Millie Decherico]

Whether or not it sucks for the plotline that he.

[Jamie Loftus]

I guess I'm just kind of like. This doesn't fall in either camp of him being professional or him following his. Him being weakened by his emotional relationship with a woman.

[Millie Decherico]

Yes.

[Jamie Loftus]

You know, it's sort of this in between. I'm just like. I just don't. I don't know. I was like, that goes against everything he's done in this movie up to this point. But it does make sense in terms of, like, he can't quit the job.

[Millie Decherico]

Sure. I mean, if I was him, I'd be. I was on the phone with John Voight. He's like, guess what? You're home free, baby. Here's all your money. Here's your flight. Here's your girlfriend. All you gotta do is drive to lax and you're. And you're gone. Even if in a moment's notice, somebody had been like, hey, remember that asshole that you hired who ended up being a Nazi scumbag who killed a bunch of people and sold you out? He's just, like, hanging out at a hotel by the airport on the way.

[Jamie Loftus]

On the way right next to lax.

[Millie Decherico]

Actually wearing the fluffy robe and slippers that they give you. What are you gonna do about it? I would be like, you know what? Maybe somebody else will handle it. Maybe. Like, even though it's terrifying that he might, like, spill some information and, like, get caught or whatever, I mean, like, somebody else will kill him. Maybe Val Kilmer will kill him. Somebody else will handle him, or he'll just be such a fucking dumbass, go back to jail or get himself killed.

[Jamie Loftus]

Like, well, what is he gonna. What is he gonna spill, too?

[Millie Decherico]

Right?

[Jamie Loftus]

Actually, Robert De Niro stole that money. They were like, yeah, no shit. We were just shooting at each other.

[Millie Decherico]

Right. So I'm saying, like, the effort is not worth the reward in that way.

[Jamie Loftus]

The juice is not worth the squeeze.

[Millie Decherico]

Absolutely. I love that phrase, by the way. I say it a lot.

[Jamie Loftus]

But you know what? The face off between Pacino and. You know, when they. When Pacino and De Niro, at the end, when they're, like, holding hands, I got a little emotional.

[Millie Decherico]

Give me a break. Who.

[Jamie Loftus]

I felt a little thing.

[Millie Decherico]

You'd have to be a stone to not feel your feelings. First of all, that sequence is so stressful.

[Jamie Loftus]

It is.

[Millie Decherico]

Because it's.

[Jamie Loftus]

You really have no idea.

[Millie Decherico]

You have no idea. And it's pretty much silent. There's not even ambient sounds happening in the background except for, like, planes taking off.

[Jamie Loftus]

Who do you think was better prepared, fitness wise to run across that field? Robert De Niro or Al Pacino?

[Millie Decherico]

Oh, shit. Wow. What a question.

[Jamie Loftus]

I have a definitive answer.

[Millie Decherico]

Do you really?

[Jamie Loftus]

There's a. There's a clear answer.

[Millie Decherico]

For me, there's a clear answer. I feel like Pacino was not tactically dressed as well. Like, he's probably wearing, like, dress shoes from Floor Shine or something, and he's just not like he's not dressed to be running through a field.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Millie Decherico]

And I feel like. So I feel like in that way De Niro is better suited for that.

[Jamie Loftus]

Well, if we look at the history of their roles, you know, De Niro gained a bunch of weight for Raging Bull, and then he got in super good shape to be in Raging Bull. He has a history of body transformation, bringing him, you know, his, you know, body to a film in a certain way. And I don't think Pacino has that history. Also. Pacino just seems like more of a madman and was, like, smoking packs of cigarettes while filming this movie, it seemed like. So I just feel like. I just think those running sequences would have almost killed Al Pacino is what I'm saying.

[Millie Decherico]

I mean, how old were they actually? Probably in their 40s.

[Jamie Loftus]

Older than that.

[Millie Decherico]

Oh, you think so? Let's.

[Jamie Loftus]

Let's see.

[Millie Decherico]

Do the math.

[Jamie Loftus]

Al Pacino was 55.

[Millie Decherico]

Holy shit. Really?

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. At the time of this movie. And Robert de Niro was 52. And it should be said that both of these men, Al Pacino and Robert De Niro, who are respectively 85 and 81 years old, I believe, have newborn children.

[Millie Decherico]

Oh, God, don't even get me started. I was like, can the Annabelle doll haunt those guys so that they never have any more kids?

[Jamie Loftus]

Can the Annabelle doll put a curse on these old man penises so that they stop start shooting blanks, for God's sake? What the fuck?

[Millie Decherico]

Get. Come on, get a fucking vasectomy. Just put a bag. A bag of frozen peas on it and call it a day. This is insane, guys. This is insane.

[Jamie Loftus]

It's disgusting.

[Millie Decherico]

Anyways, is there anything.

[Jamie Loftus]

Millie, we really got to move on.

[Millie Decherico]

We have.

[Jamie Loftus]

I'm sorry.

[Millie Decherico]

Jesus. We have really squeezed the sponge out of here.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, my goodness. Well, let's move on to our. A different type of conversation, one with the wonderful Jamie Loftus, where we talk about another insane movie, Jesus Christ Superstar. Okay, everybody, this is another installment of my area of expertise segment. We bring in an expert to talk about, well, their area of expertise. And today we have another expert. It's Jamie Loftis, the co host of the podcast the Bechdel Cast with Caitlin Durante. She also hosted the short series, which I really loved my year in Mensa that chronicles the events surrounding her applying to joining mensa. She's the author of Raw the Naked Truth About Hot Dogs. Jamie, thank you so much for being here today.

[Tom Noonan]

I am so happy to be here talking about one of my favorites, your area of expertise, which is Jesus Christ Superstar, 1973.

[Jamie Loftus]

Wonderful. Now, Jamie, I have a very deep personal relationship with this movie, too. I would say it might be the movie I've seen the most in my lifetime. Really? Wow. Yeah. I went to Catholic school and we watched it every single single year, at least once a year. But I want to hear about your relationship with Jesus Christ Superstar, how it came into your life and how it became, I guess, your area of expertise.

[Tom Noonan]

That's so fascinating to me because I. As I was re. Watching this movie, I watched this movie. We. We bounced around. We sampled a lot of religions when I was a kid. My. My parents were traumatized Catholics, so I was like, baptized Catholic. But we went to. We went to a Wiccan church for a while. We. But we sort of ended up settling at this congregational church. That was at the time. I hope this isn't still true, but at the time it was the only queer friendly Christian church in my town. And it was a pretty. I mean, I. I thought it was boring because it was church, but it wasn't traumatic outside of being boring. But this. It was a very, like, substitute teacher energy going on at the Sunday school. It was not intense, it was not scary. And it was a lot of Jesus Christ superstar on VHS, a lot of the Prince of Egypt on VHS, a lot of VeggieTales. They were just like. They put on a tape and left the room and they were like, hopefully you grow closer to God today. Whatever. But I was. My mom was, I think, like 10 when Jesus Christ Superstar came out, and she was obsessed and she. And was not religious, but was really excited to share it with me. We listened to the soundtrack a lot. And then I saw it for the first time in Sunday School probably when I was like 9 or 10. And the opening, it's not the opening shot, but, like, that slow push in on Carl Anderson in the orange outfit. I was like, gone, done. I was obsessed with Carl Anderson as a kid. I was like on Team Judas, which is like, so, like this movie, it is interesting.

[Jamie Loftus]

The main character of Jesus Christ Superstar is Judas, essentially, you know, in every way.

[Tom Noonan]

Like, and I think, you know, Ted Neely does a great job and him going get out is like, still one of my favorite moments in all of cinematic history. But, like, Carl Anderson just takes the show. We see Judas get resurrected and not Jesus. Like, at the time I was. I was. Weirdly, I don't think this movie really made me more interested in religion. It made me more interested in my religion as a middle schooler, which was musical theater.

[Millie Decherico]

I was gonna say.

[Tom Noonan]

Yeah.

[Millie Decherico]

I wanted to ask you right off the bat, what is your relationship to Andrew Lloyd Webber? If you have One.

[Tom Noonan]

So it's certainly become complicated over the years. He's a bad man. But my mom was a huge Andrew Lloyd Weber head. It was Jesus Christ Superstar, and she was also really into Phantom. I remember one of the.

[Jamie Loftus]

Me, too.

[Tom Noonan]

One of the huge revelations of my childhood was realizing that Phantom and the Hunchback of Notre Dame have all the same story beats. And so that I could take my Hunchback of Notre Dame dolls and. And have my mom turn on the Phantom soundtrack and just act out the whole thing. And that was, like, my favorite indoor kid activity.

[Jamie Loftus]

You could recast the hunchback figures to play in Phantom of the Opera.

[Millie Decherico]

That's.

[Tom Noonan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the Phantom is Quasimodo, Christine is Esmeralda, and the Kevin Klein guy is the Patrick Wilson guy.

[Millie Decherico]

Whatever.

[Jamie Loftus]

Millie, what was your impression as the movie started?

[Tom Noonan]

That's true.

[Jamie Loftus]

Like, as a person who just watches for the first time.

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah. I want to preface all of this by saying I think. I think you guys have a lot in common in terms of the musical theater elements and the. And the Jesus Christ Superstar elements. I. This is a first I watched for me. So. And to be honest, like, I do not know a ton about theater. I saw Cats, the movie before seeing.

[Jamie Loftus]

Cats, another Andrew Lloyd Weber joint.

[Millie Decherico]

And I gotta be honest, like, I've always thought that Andrew Lloyd Webber was kind of ridiculous. And like. Like, a lot of his, you know, is, like, I don't know, his pump and circumstance. Right. So I came out of this with totally fresh eyes. And I gotta say, like, I. This blew my mind. Like, I was like, first of all, I was literally Googling because I'm also. I grew up Catholic, too, but I didn't go to Catholic school or any. Anything like that. I'm a terrible Catholic when it comes to, like, knowledge. Like, I was looking up, oh, what did happen at the Crucifixion? Wait, do I know what? Who was at the last. I literally Googled who was at the Last Supper.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Millie Decherico]

And I didn't realize, oh, it's just the apostles. I was, like, thinking it was just random people. Like, I couldn't even remember who was at the Last Supper. So I was literally Googling all the historical facts. But then it didn't even really matter because this thing is an entire show. Like, it is from start to finish, just, like, this huge production. It's.

[Tom Noonan]

Oh, I'm so glad you liked it. It's so. It's like. And it also is, like. I mean, I don't know. I was. I remember being like, mom, is this what the 70s is? And she's like, kind of. Kind of like that whole, like, just so many great line reads that I was showing it to my fiance for the first time. And he also was not prepared for the raw power of Jesus Christ Superstar. Of just, like, one thing I'll say for him, Jesus is cool. You're like, what a weird thing to.

[Jamie Loftus]

Do in that scene where it's like, we need a more permanent solution to our problem. And I feel like I say that to my wife, and she has no idea, like, what. I need to show it to her so she can fully understand who I am as a person as well.

[Tom Noonan]

So much choreography. Like, I just. And Yvonne Eliman as Mary is so like, her. Both of her songs make me cry.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. Beautiful. The most famous one, I think, is the how do. How do I. I don't know how to love him.

[Millie Decherico]

I don't know.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah. So good. Oh, my gosh. So good. Do you have. Is there, like, a song or scene that, like, stands out particularly for you?

[Tom Noonan]

Oh, I mean, any of the Judas songs. Heaven on Their Mind. I do. I think I listen to at least once a week, like, just in my life. It puts me in a great mood. I don't. I mean, I do really appreciate that because I think Andrew Lloyd Webber, he's also, like, this, like, you know, nepo y like, grew up with a shitload of money, so he was able to, like, get this production off the ground in his early 20s. And he blatantly rips off the Batman theme like in the. It's so weird in a scene with.

[Jamie Loftus]

Judas where it's like, yeah, yeah. Never put that together, but I hear it now. Yeah.

[Tom Noonan]

But, yeah, I love Heaven on Their Minds and Superstar are my favorite God. The outfit, Judas. I think the movie is on Judas's side because, like, look at the outfit he gets to wear at the end of the movie. It's so much better than Jesus's.

[Jamie Loftus]

Totally. It's funny. My mom, like, she was like, oh, Judas voice. That act. He's incredible. He is, like, the star. And she was like, the guy who plays Jesus. I don't like his voice. Like, my mom was, like, very anti Jesus in this movie.

[Millie Decherico]

You know, it's interesting about Carl Anderson. I love that you love him so much, because I. There was a moment when. Because I had no reference for this at all. Like, I was just like, I don't even know who's in it.

[Jamie Loftus]

Who plays Jesus flying in. Yeah.

[Millie Decherico]

So when I looked at the cast list and I was Like Carl Anderson. How do I know that name? For me, this is random as shit. So just walk with me here. When I was a kid, I remember Carl Anderson because he did this duet with this woman, Gloria Loring. And they did this song called Friends and Lovers that was on Days of Our Lives, the soap opera Days of Our Lives. And it was this like, huge song. Like, I think they played it at, like my. At dances. Like, they would play it at a. Like, school dances and stuff. And it was like, it. We used to play like on the radio constantly. Like, sometimes you'll hear it at the drugstore. Now if you listen to it, you'll be like, oh. Because it kind of sounds like a Disney duet or something. It's huge. It sounds huge. But that's how I know Carl Anderson is from Days of Our Lives. Basically wild. I know. So I couldn't believe it was him. I was like, oh, my God, it's that guy. It's amazing.

[Jamie Loftus]

It is fun. I don't, like, really know. The only person I know in this movie that I, like, know he's in something else is the guy who plays King Herod, zero Mustel's son. Yeah, zero Mustel's son who plays the principal. And Billy Madison, who's, like, in love with Billy. And it's like, that's like the only other actor from this that I've seen elsewhere.

[Tom Noonan]

God, I didn't realize. Cause I watched half of it and then it was edited in Imovie, so I had to turn it off. But there was like. It was on Amazon Prime. It was, I think, made by like, Ted Neely's friend, like less than 10 years ago about the remaining living cast meeting up and talking about the production. And it was interesting, but it was. It was really edited in Imovie. The audio was so bad. But I didn't realize that, like, Ted Neely and Carl Anderson were the understudies. Like, they were just Broadway understudies. Because, I mean. And there is the whole. I mean, when I started thinking about this movie critically, I had to make myself stop because you're like white Jesus, black Judas. The optics are bad. But I guess the original Broadway Judas was Ben Vereen. And you're like, oh, that was probably really good. And then Yvonne Elliman was the original Mary. I think she's the only Broadway actual carryover to the movie. I know. But yeah, it's like, we don't really know. And I don't feel like any of them went on to have the huge careers afterwards. I think they're almost famous for being in this movie.

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah. I think Yvonne Ellman, she had one popular song. I think it was in Saturday Night Fever. But it was like, if I can't have you, I don't wanna. Yeah, that's the. That's how I even know her name.

[Jamie Loftus]

But I didn't even know that.

[Millie Decherico]

Again, like random songs and I'm like, oh, these people are in Jesus Christ Superstar. What the hell?

[Tom Noonan]

Like, they're people of the seventies.

[Millie Decherico]

I know. Well. And also I want to ask you about the 70s, ness of it, because you were talking to. You were saying about how your mom. You were asking your mom what was it like? I feel like this movie really took advantage of the seven, like, early 70s, like, hippie lifestyle where, like, everybody in the movie is kind of. Of sweaty and gross, but kind of hot. And like, they're dirty. Hippie hot.

[Tom Noonan]

Yeah.

[Millie Decherico]

In like a very 70s kind of way.

[Jamie Loftus]

They don't let people be like that in movies anymore.

[Tom Noonan]

Their teeth.

[Millie Decherico]

Like.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Millie Decherico]

Bad skin. Some of them had bad skin. And I was like, this is like a thing that they don't allow famous people to be anymore.

[Jamie Loftus]

It's true.

[Tom Noonan]

One thing I didn't. I didn't have. I don't know when I was getting ready for this, I was like, oh, I have so many more questions. But I'm curious. I have no idea because I'm pretty sure Godspell came out basically at the exact same time as Jesus Christ Superstar in the early 70s and both launched. Really? Because that was by Stephen Schwartz. And I'm like, what was it about the early 70s that made, like, these hippie Jesus musicals? Like, what. What. What was in the water that that was happening?

[Jamie Loftus]

That is interesting. And it's funny because I always, growing up was like, oh, Godspell is like the rip off of Jesus Christ Superstar. But I think Godspell was first. And so I need to.

[Tom Noonan]

I feel like there. It's your. Because my. My aunt and uncle, they were Godspell family. We're a Jesus Christ Superstar family.

[Jamie Loftus]

And Coke and pepper. Yeah.

[Tom Noonan]

Yeah. I had no. I mean, I need. It's fine. I don't know. I still, to this day, I'm like, Godspell's trash.

[Jamie Loftus]

I haven't. I haven't even. I don't. I don't think I've even seen it.

[Tom Noonan]

So my loyalties lie with JC Superstar.

[Jamie Loftus]

So did you, Jamie, growing up, you know, you're watching this movie, they're wheeling it in on a, you know, Sunday school to watch It. Were you. Were any. Were you alone in your fascination with Jesus Christ Superstar? Or did you, like you. Any of your friends have any, like, particular love for this, or was this sort of a you and your mom fascination?

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah, like Jesus Christ Superstar.

[Tom Noonan]

Like many of my passions, I was. No one in my peer group shared my enthusiasm for Jesus Christ Superstar. It was nice. It was a nice thing to bond with my mom over and just musical theater with my mom in general. And I had plenty of, you know, friends in elementary into middle school that were really into musical theater, but I couldn't get anyone into this particular one. It was like. I feel like I was in middle school when the Chris Columbus Rent adaptation came out, and I made a lot of friends around that. That's how I met my college roommate at a local production of Rent when I was, like, really 12?

[Millie Decherico]

Really?

[Tom Noonan]

Yeah.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, that's so funny.

[Tom Noonan]

But, yeah, JC Superstar, I get why it's a hard sell. It's hard to get someone to sit down and watch it with you because it sounds like it's gonna be boring.

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah, it's not boring at all. I'll just throw that out there. I mean, as much as I am so uneducated about anything involving Catholicism, despite the fact that I'm Catholic, I was, like, riveted. I mean, there are some truly insane moments. There's. It feels a little gay. Am I getting that right? Like, with the guys in the harnesses, I don't even know who that was. I don't even know who they were. But it was. It felt very, like. I don't know, like, leather daddy in the desert type of thing.

[Jamie Loftus]

No, absolutely. I.

[Millie Decherico]

And then there felt like there was a gay character. Right.

[Tom Noonan]

Like, King of Herod is, like, so heavily queer coded.

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah.

[Tom Noonan]

Like, it's. I don't know why that choice was made. I just know that I support it.

[Millie Decherico]

I think I know the moment.

[Tom Noonan]

We're like, oh, my God. I used to act this out. And I would play both parts in my room where the scene where Jesus and Judas are feuding after. And then Judas runs away with the sheep. And it's all very symbolic, whatever, but where they touch each other's hands in this very particular way and touch each other's faces. And I was there. I was there with them. It's what I. It was like that scene. And then there was some scene in the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie between Jack Sparrow and Orlando Bloom where I was like, they should kiss. Like, this movie wants you. I think this movie wants Judas and Jesus to kiss.

[Jamie Loftus]

Jamie, do you feel like, you know, you said musical theater was, like, a big part of your life as a young, younger person. Do you feel like it. It still is a big part of your life. And if so, how does that come out in, like, the work you're producing? Do you think it has any influence on you today?

[Tom Noonan]

I wish it had more. I just don't have any musical talent myself, and so I feel like I. Musical theater, I guess, consistently has been one of the. The main escape mechanisms for me. And I think part of it, I kind of love that I couldn't be ambitious in that department if I wanted to be. I can't write lyrics. I can barely function at a karaoke night. But I love musical theater, and it still feels just like a really. And it's just nice, I don't know, like, hanging out with. Because I wasn't super into musical theater in college because I went to an art school, and I do think there's such a thing as being too into it.

[Millie Decherico]

Oh, yeah.

[Tom Noonan]

And so for a couple years, I was like, we're gonna put this interest on the back burner because I actually don't want to talk about it for, like, seven hours a day. But then later on, like, kind of came back to it. And, yeah, I still. I love. I love the amount of sincerity that it requires to do musical theater well, and I love the amount of. I mean, like. And this musical is such a good example of, like, what a big, weird fucking swing at something. And it, like, doesn't work unless everyone is fully committed to this big, weird thing. And if that's. I mean, that's as close as I, like, I've always want to try to take swings like that in what I do. I can't do it in song, but I just love how committed everyone is to Jesus in the desert.

[Jamie Loftus]

Well, Jamie, thank you so much for being on the show to talk about Jesus Christ Superstar.

[Tom Noonan]

Thank you both so much.

[Jamie Loftus]

In the 70s, is there anything you'd like to plug?

[Tom Noonan]

Yeah, my book Raw, the Naked Truth About Hot Dogs, is coming out in paperback, and I'll be on tour at an objectively random list of cities throughout the spring and summer. And so, yeah, if you follow me on Instagram. Oh, my God. Literally, my Instagram is jamiecrisuperstar. I forgot to say, love that. That. Yeah, this. I'm not. I'm not a fake fan. So, yeah, if you follow me on Instagram, amycrest Superstar, all my book tour dates are there.

[Jamie Loftus]

Fabulous. Well, thank you so much. And Listen to the Bechdel cast. A great. One of the best movie podcasts out there. Thank you again, Jamie. Really appreciate it.

[Tom Noonan]

Oh, thank you for talking to me about this. What a dream.

[Jamie Loftus]

Alrighty, now it's time for employees picks where we recommend a movie based on the conversation we had today. Millie, what do you got?

[Millie Decherico]

Okay, so I know there's many different avenues that we can travel down for this episode, so I'm just gonna go down the Al Pachichi one because.

[Jamie Loftus]

Oh, nice.

[Millie Decherico]

I'm gonna recommend a movie from 1971. It was directed by Jerry Schatzberg and it's called the Panic in Needle Park.

[Jamie Loftus]

Ooh, I've never seen it.

[Millie Decherico]

It's a good one, very bleak. It's about heroin addiction. It stars. It's him and Kitty Wynn who was in the Exorcist films and it was actually co written by Joan Didion and John Gregory Dunn.

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah, she wrote an essay about this.

[Millie Decherico]

Yes, absolutely. So it's basically like a story of these, like two heroin addicted, you know, young people in New York City. It's like really grim. They're, you know, in a relationship. They're trying to keep the relationship together, but it's really, you know, it's obviously very difficult when you're in throes of addiction. And the poster, now the poster, if you look it up, that poster to me was something that was. I used to like stare at this poster all the time because it's so evocative. Like it's basically like the huge black letters that says, God help Bobby and Helen. They're in love in Needle Park. And it's like a black and white. It just kind of looks like kind of tabloidy. It's very like, like, but like to sell a movie, you're like, holy. That's. That does it. That makes me want to see a movie. You know, this is kind of dark, but I always told myself that if I ever got married, I try to like do my wedding invitations to look like this poster.

[Jamie Loftus]

That's good. That would be good. God help them.

[Millie Decherico]

God help them. They're getting married and it would be me.

[Jamie Loftus]

They're in love in Atlanta.

[Millie Decherico]

Me in like a nasty knit cap. I. Yeah, I. This movie, if you're in for that kind of movie, like a really dark, gritty, New York 70s drug film. It's for you and Al Pacino. I know that he's not supposed to look great in this movie, but he looks great. He's young and he's in love. So love it. Yeah, that's my wreck. What about you?

[Jamie Loftus]

Awesome. I have two recommendations, and I'm picking two because these are two movies because these are, like, both like children of Michael Mann movies.

[Millie Decherico]

Oh, I see. I see. Okay. Okay.

[Jamie Loftus]

That's why I'm. And neither are as good as Heat, but I feel like they were both heavily influenced by Heat and they're. They're fun. One movie I'm recommending is 2022's ambulance with Jake Gyllenhaal. Did you ever see this movie?

[Millie Decherico]

No, I have not.

[Jamie Loftus]

Directed by Michael Bay, and it is wild and it's about a bank heist gone wrong and they escape in a ambulance. So it's obviously incredibly inspired by Heat, but it's fun. I had a good time watching this movie, and it definitely is more like, if you love the shootout sequence in Heat, this is that movie for you. But if you love the vibes of heat, I recommend 2011's drive by Nicholas Winding Refn, starring Ryan Gosling, which is so clearly inspired by Heat and Michael Mann. The neon, the soundtrack. But that this was such a big deal when that movie came out in my little circle of people. And I really enjoyed it when it came out, and I've seen it recently and I've enjoyed it less, but it's still a good movie, I think.

[Millie Decherico]

Can I tell you a little secret?

[Jamie Loftus]

Yeah.

[Millie Decherico]

I've never seen Drive.

[Jamie Loftus]

You've never seen Drive?

[Millie Decherico]

No.

[Jamie Loftus]

It's very. Of 2011. So I would be curious, kind of, you seeing it now. It's very stylish. Albert Brooks is really good in it. And. Yeah, I don't know if I would say you need to see it, Millie, but I like that movie. And I don't love all of Nicholas Winding Refn's movies, but this one's pretty good.

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah, no, I. I think I'll probably like it, to be honest. Even. Even all of the hype and stuff that came around it. And after it, I think I'd still like it. So I will watch it, actually.

[Jamie Loftus]

Okay. Okay.

[Millie Decherico]

But it's a good pick.

[Jamie Loftus]

Wow, Millie, we recorded another episode. Thank you so much, Jamie Loftus, for joining us today. That was really fun to get to talk about Jesus Christ Superstar, a really wacky movie. Check out her podcast, the Bechdel Cast. But yeah, that's. Wow. Another episode in the can.

[Millie Decherico]

Can you believe? Well, next week we're gonna do another deep dive into a topic that I. Personally, I have a lot of stakes in.

[Jamie Loftus]

We did Prince and Purple Rain. This is somewhat. This is kind of an equivalent to You.

[Millie Decherico]

Yeah, it's your area. Exactly. We're going to talk about Southern gothic films.

[Jamie Loftus]

Can't wait.

[Millie Decherico]

And we're going to focus in on the classic film Elizabeth Taylor, Paul Newman written by Tennessee Williams. Cat on a hot tin roof from 1958. So we're gonna actually go backwards in time and watch a more classic film. But it's gonna be fun. I have a lot to say about it, so please join us.

[Jamie Loftus]

I've never seen this movie. First time. Watch for me.

[Millie Decherico]

Talk about men and their feelings. You're gonna be in your feelings about it.

[Jamie Loftus]

Don't make me feel.

[Millie Decherico]

Please.

[Jamie Loftus]

Fabulous. Well, if you want to write into our show to ask for film advice, I promise we'll do that segment again sometime soon. Please do. So write into dearMoviesactlyRightMedia.com I'm reading all your little emails. They're so great. And if you want to send us a love letter too, we'll take those too. We won't read them on air. We'll just print them off and fold them up and keep them next to our hearts. So you can write in or you can send us a voicemail, which we love. We love playing people's voicemails on the show. Just record it on your phone and email it to DearMoviesactlyRightMedia.com, keep it under a minute and record in a quiet place, please.

[Millie Decherico]

That's right. And follow us on social media. We are at dearmovies, I love you on Instagram and Facebook and we're individually on letterboxd. So, Casey Iseelee o' Brien, and I'm Decherico.

[Jamie Loftus]

That's right. And please listen to Dear movies. I love you on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And hey, while you're out on those Internet streets, please rate and review our show. It means ever so much to do when you do that. So if you're able to, please do so.

[Millie Decherico]

All right, Casey, Millie, great job this week.

[Jamie Loftus]

You too, Millie. You really brought your A game and I was just trying to keep up.

[Millie Decherico]

I told you I'm never going back.

[Jamie Loftus]

Millie and I are virtually holding hands as she loses consciousness.

[Millie Decherico]

See you guys next week.

[Jamie Loftus]

Bye.

[Millie Decherico]

Bye.

[Jamie Loftus]

Bye.

[Millie Decherico]

This has been an exactly right production hosted by me, Millie de Chirico, and produced by my co host, Casey o' Brien.

[Jamie Loftus]

This episode was mixed by Tom Breyfogel. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. Our guest booker is Patrick Cotner, and our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

[Millie Decherico]

Our incredible theme music is by the best band in the entire world, the Softies.

[Jamie Loftus]

Thank you to our executive producers Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, Daniel Kramer and Millie Duchenne. Jericho, we love you. Goodbye.

[Casey O'Brien]

I want my kids to have a healthy relationship with food, which means avoiding junk food as much as possible and giving them things that are good for them. That's why I love giving my kids organ. It's convenient, real nutrition that checks checks all the boxes for me. It provides a good source of complete protein to keep my kids going strong and giving them energy to do all the things they want. It offers over 20 essential vitamins and minerals. Organ is an excellent source of vitamins B12D and zinc to support immune health. It's USDA certified organic and has 25% less sugar than the leading kids high protein nutritional shakes. One of the best things that I love about organ is that I do not have to force my kids to drink or eat anything from Orgain because the second they tried their shakes, they loved them. Jace loves the fruity cereal flavor. Jolie loves the vanilla and chocolate. So shop Orgain Kids now [e-mail] and selected retailers.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway this spring. Stock up on all your personal care favorites and earn 4 times points. Now through June 17th. Shop in store online for deals on all your favorite personal care items like Pantene Shampoo, Native body Spray, Deodorant, Secret Body Spray, Venus Razors, Always Pads, Head and shoulder shampoo and native deodorant and earn 4 times points. Then use those points for discounts on groceries or fuel. You don't want to miss these deals. Offer ends June 17th. Promotions may vary. Restrictions apply. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

[Jamie Loftus]

New out of nowhere obstacles New all or nothing moments. New less than likely triumphs Season two of the Unshakeables podcast has it all. Hi.

[Millie Decherico]

Hi.

[Jamie Loftus]

I'm Ben Walter, CEO of Chase for Business and host of the show. We're excited to bring you more inspiring stories from small business owners who share the what are we gonna do? Moments that ended up changing everything. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Chase mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply. JPMorgan Chase bank and a member FDIC Copyright 2025 JP Morgan Chase.