Rock Docs & DIG! XX (2024)! Plus, Craig Calcaterra!

Summary

Dear Movies, I Love You

Episode: "Rock Docs & DIG! XX (2024)! Plus, Craig Calcaterra!"
Hosts: Millie De Chirico & Casey O'Brien
Guest: Craig Calcaterra
Date: September 23, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode focuses on music documentaries—specifically, the new "redux" version of the iconic rock doc Dig! (now updated as DIG! XX in 2024), which chronicles the notorious rivalry between the Brian Jonestown Massacre and the Dandy Warhols. The hosts take a nostalgic deep dive into late-90s/early-2000s indie and Britpop scenes, discussing the mythos around these eras, and how documentaries immortalize (or mythologize) music subcultures. Also featured is a lively guest segment with baseball writer Craig Calcaterra, who brings his expertise on Hollywood actors portraying athletes—and vice versa.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Refreshingly Unfiltered Banter & Setting the Tone

[02:17-03:55]

• The episode kicks off with the hosts' signature playful arguments, poking fun at each other for on-air mishaps.
• Their banter riffs on god complexes, creative differences, and the inherent drama in collaborative art—a theme mirrored in the main topic of feuding bands.

2. Introduction & Main Themes

[03:55-05:09]

• Millie introduces the main focus: revisiting Dig!, originally made in 2004, and its 2024 update, DIG! XX, exploring the infamous band feud.
• Teaser for the guest appearance by Craig Calcaterra, who will discuss actors who play athletes and vice versa.

3. Film Diary: What the Hosts Watched This Week

[12:25-24:09]

Millie’s Diary:

• "Rude Boy: The Story of Trojan Records" (2018)
  • Praises subject matter but critiques use of reenactments due to lack of original archival footage.
  • Quote: "It's unfortunate because a lot of the people... are dead because of old age." [13:46 — Millie]
• "Unknown Number: The High School Catfish" (2025, Netflix)
  • Observes the endless true crime cycle: "They could be making true crime documentaries until the end of time." [15:17 — Millie]
• "Weapons" (2025)
  • Finds it "fun, weird" but questions some directorial choices.
• Rewatch: "Prince of Darkness" (1987, John Carpenter)
  • Critiques narrative clutter: "There are like 900 characters... it's ridiculous." [19:02 — Casey]
  • Appreciates the diversity and gore but ranks it as a lesser Carpenter film.

Casey’s Diary:

• "Hannah Haha" (2022)
  • A gentle Kelly Reichardt-esque indie, “mumblecore, New England summer movie.”
• "A Simple Plan" (1998)
  • Perplexed by similarities to “Fargo” and connections to the Coen brothers, describes it as “fun and...violent.”
• "Shockwaves" (1977)
  • Nazi zombie exploitation film, but deemed “pretty unsubstantial.”

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Feature Segment: Dig XX (2024) — Deep Dive

[26:36–72:44]

A. Personal Connections to the Scene

[27:08–30:06]

• Millie reflects on being "in the sauce"—living through the era as a DJ and college radio tastemaker in Atlanta, attending events where these bands played.
  • "I was going to places like CMJ and South by Southwest. I was seeing the people who were around bands like this." [28:37 — Millie]

B. Synopsis and Documentary Structure

[30:06–31:26]

• Casey recaps Dig! (2004) and updates in DIG! XX (2024):
  • Chronicles the rise and rivalry of the Dandy Warhols and Brian Jonestown Massacre.
  • Focuses on Anton Newcombe’s self-destructive genius and the Dandy Warhols’ more conventional path to success.

C. Britpop, Indie Sleaze, and Subculture Nostalgia

[31:40–37:46]

• The hosts dissect how these bands bridged Britpop and what later came to be called "indie sleaze."
  • Millie: "This is actually more of this bridge in the BritPop to indie sleaze pipeline." [33:02]
• Reflection on 90s/00s club nights, the explosion of micro-genres, and the fashion/aesthetics that defined these scenes.

D. The Sincerity and Pitfalls of Rock Mythmaking

[37:46–41:05]

• Millie: Dig! felt self-mythologizing even as it documented real-time messiness.
  • "It was almost kind of like trying to create a legend before any time had passed." [39:12]
• Casey: "The way they lived was... so disgusting." [39:53]
• Discussion on whether documentaries glamorize/destructure dysfunctional behavior.

E. The Eternal Tension: Artistic Purity vs. Selling Out

[41:12–45:14]

• They discuss the "underground vs. mainstream" push-pull in rock, linking it to current music industry norms.
  • “There’s always going to be...the person who wants to be in a band and make money, and the other who wants to stay underground.” [42:12 — Millie]

F. Archetypes and Characters:

• Anton Newcombe: Rare creative, dangerous but magnetic, constantly self-sabotaging.
• Courtney Taylor (Dandy Warhols): Emulates rock star tropes but ultimately more functional.
• Joel Gion: The iconic "tambourine guy"—embodiment of scene fashion, loyalty, and visual branding.
  • “He’s the visual. He’s the Boss Tone.” [57:49 — Millie]

G. Scene Fashion & Subcultural Memorabilia

[55:12–56:59]

• Millie recalls "shotgun blast" hair, her own days copying Robert Smith/Jesus & Mary Chain looks.

H. Don’t Romanticize: Then vs. Now

[64:01–72:44]

• The fate of bands: Dandy Warhols find stability, Brian Jonestown Massacre do not—"could they have made it if they'd just cleaned up?"
• Modern music’s lack of big, chaotic indie bands; the ‘brand’-ification of culture; and the nostalgia for more "raw" days.

Notable Quotes:

• "If Anton Newcombe had just worn more Stone Island parkas, if only, and not done heroin... would they now be Oasis?" [66:24 — Millie]
• "Is this why Gen Z are so neutered and careful about everything, because their parents were this?" [68:13 — Millie]

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Guest Interview: Craig Calcaterra — Actors Playing Athletes & Vice Versa

[72:59–103:54]

A. Craig’s Area of Expertise

[80:15–84:22]

• The believability of actors as athletes in sports films, regardless of their “acting” ability.
• Top tier: Kevin Costner (variously convincing baseball player, golfer) and Burt Reynolds ("longest yard" — an athlete-turned-actor).

B. Second Tier & The Art of Selling a Sport

[84:22–87:42]

• Robert De Niro in Raging Bull and Charlie Sheen in Major League—actors who truly "sold it."
• Notoriously bad: Freddie Prinze Jr. in Summer Catch — “has this weird hitch in his throw...looks like he saw baseball for the first time when he got to the set.” [88:01 — Craig]

C. The Reverse: Athletes Who Can Actually Act

[93:32–97:55]

• Wrestlers (The Rock, Dave Bautista, John Cena, Roddy Piper) highlighted as the most successful.
• NFL → blaxploitation/action movies pipeline, especially in the 70s (Jim Brown, Carl Weathers et al.).
• Honorable mentions for athletes in non-action roles (Jason Lee, Nnamdi Asomugha in "Sylvie's Love").

D. Cultural Change & Media Training

[101:13–102:24]

• Craig laments the homogenization of athletes in the social media age—“the personality is kind of drained out of them by design” [101:13].

E. Notable Quotes:

• “You need a certain level of ego and confidence in football that you don’t necessarily need in the other sports.” [97:55 — Craig]
• On Costner: “He still has the arrogance and the ego...but he manages to make himself vulnerable as an athlete too.” [82:46 — Craig]
• On Slap Shot: “[Paul Newman] nails even more so than Costner the whole athlete at the end of the line attitude.” [91:03 — Craig]

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Staff Picks: Music Documentaries

[105:49–111:36]

• Millie’s Pick: Depeche Mode 101 (1989, dir. D.A. Pennebaker)
  • “If you go to the desert and do mushrooms and watch it, it will be a fantastic experience.” [106:25 — Millie]
• Casey’s Pick: Instrument (1999, dir. Jem Cohen) — Fugazi doc: “There’s no band that sold out less than Fugazi.” [108:55 — Casey]
• Acknowledges the recent glut of music documentaries, even about the smallest acts: "Kind of spoiled for choice, and I think they're all entertaining—even if they're terrible." [111:18 — Millie]

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• “Yo, let me tell you something, though. In every spiritual tradition, you burn in hell for pretending to be God and not being able to back that up, bro.” [03:10 — Millie]
• “There’s always going to be two types of people in this scene: one that wants to stay underground and not sell out, and the other...that wants to be in an actual band and make money and be able to buy their mom a house...” [42:12 — Millie]
• “I kept thinking to myself, is this why Gen Z are so neutered and careful about everything?” [68:13 — Millie]
• On Joel Gion: “He’s the tambourine...He’s the visual. He’s the Boss Tone.” [57:46/57:49 — Millie]

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Structurally Important Timestamps

• [02:17] – Signature host banter & intro
• [03:55] – Main episode overview (Dig! and DIG! XX)
• [12:25] – Start of "Film Diary" segment
• [26:36] – Deep dive: Dig!/DIG! XX
• [72:59] – Introduction of guest Craig Calcaterra
• [80:15] – Actors as athletes discussion
• [105:49] – Staff picks: Top music docs
• [111:36 – End] – Outro, contact info, upcoming topics

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Tone & Language

The discussion maintains a conversational, irreverent tone rich with nostalgia, subcultural detail, and affectionate critique. The hosts freely mix sharp observations with self-deprecating humor and lived experience, fostering a sense of people “who have been there.” The guest segment leans into analytical enthusiasm and subject expertise—in a way that invites both hardcore film and sports fans into the conversation.

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For New Listeners

By the end, listeners gain:

• A deep understanding of the DIG! documentary’s cultural and mythic importance
• Broader context for the rise/fall of indie, Britpop, and "indie sleaze"
• Insight into the evolution of music docs as cultural artifacts
• A fun detour into sports movies and the physical believability of actors
• A sense of how film both reflects and constructs the very subcultures it documents.

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Next episode tease:
The hosts will cover Scorsese’s The King of Comedy (1982) and the theme of obsessed-fan movies.

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For more, follow @dearmoviesiloveyou and subscribe wherever you get podcasts.

Transcript

[Millie De Chirico]

This is exactly right.

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[Casey O'Brien]

All right, Millie, are you recording?

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah, I am. Okay.

[Casey O'Brien]

Okay, just start it up whenever you're ready. You start. Start the intro whenever you're ready.

[Millie De Chirico]

Okay, I will. Hey everybody, you're listening to. Oh, did I say Bill? You it up.

[Casey O'Brien]

You it up again.

[Millie De Chirico]

You up the intro.

[Casey O'Brien]

You up my intro. I wrote.

[Millie De Chirico]

Dude, I. It was a complete mistake. Like what, what am I supposed to be like perfect Every time here you.

[Casey O'Brien]

Need to be perfect because I'm perfect every time. I come to every one of these recordings with perfect instrumentation, perfect vocalization. I. I know the script backwards and forwards. It's just about doing a little bit of homework. You don't do it.

[Millie De Chirico]

You know, no one is going to talk to me like that on this podcast, bro. Like you're not gonna talk to me like that I talk to you however I want.

[Casey O'Brien]

I can talk to you however I want because I am the messiah of podcasting, okay? I am a mystic, and people don't respect me enough, and they don't understand the vision that I'm. That I have for this show.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yo, let me tell you something, though. In every spiritual tradition, you burn in hell for pretending to be God and not being able to back that up, bro.

[Casey O'Brien]

Well, you know, if I'm going to hell, I'm bringing with me.

[Millie De Chirico]

Come here. Hey. Hey, you. Hey. Hey.

[Casey O'Brien]

Get back here.

[Millie De Chirico]

Hey. You broke my fucking sitar. Don't touch my hair. Don't touch my hair. God, what a freak. Like you're. I'm quitting.

[Casey O'Brien]

Good riddance, man. There's the door. There's the door.

[Millie De Chirico]

Listen, you're going to be so sorry without me. I am just going to go and walk and I'll just walk back to California. I don't give a shit about you.

[Casey O'Brien]

Boohoo. Boohoo.

[Millie De Chirico]

There goes Casey with his God complex again. Pretty much a typical recording of the podcast. Dear movies, I love you. And it's too bad that we had to break up again because we have an amazing show this week. We're going to be digging into the reworking or the redux of a documentary that was made in 2004 called Dig. We're actually talking about the 2024 update date, Dig XX, which is all about the feud between the Brian Jonestown Massacre and the Dandy Warhols. We're also going to be talking to our friend, baseball writer Craig Calcatera. He is bringing his area of expertise this week, which is all about actors who play athletes and maybe even the reverse, which is athletes that turn into actors. But it's a great conversation. It's gonna be a great show if we can try to get this maniac under control. And we hope you'll stay tuned. You're listening to the greatest podcast in the entire world. Dear movies, I love you. Dear movies, I love you.

[Craig Calcatera]

And I've got to know if you love me too.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yes or no. Check the bo Alive.

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[Millie De Chirico]

Hey everybody. You are listening to Dear Movies, I love you. It is the podcast for people who are in a relationship with movies. Problematic, sometimes violence, sometimes. Sometimes fueled completely by drugs and alcohol, but a relationship nonetheless. My name is Millie De Chirico.

[Casey O'Brien]

I'm Casey o'. Brien. I'm really sorry about that, Millie.

[Millie De Chirico]

I don't know.

[Casey O'Brien]

It came over me, dude.

[Millie De Chirico]

I was halfway to L A on foot just now. I slept on a lawn chair that was behind a dumpster. Yeah, at a strip mall somewhere in Arkansas. I don't even remember. But we gotta work on this, dude. I mean you're. Listen, you're a genius. You're a Musical genius. Even if you treat me like I'm gonna buy all your albums still. You just need to learn how to be a person, dude. Yeah. Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

Well, yeah, I'm working on it. I'm working on it. Working on the drugs. I'm working on. Working on it all. Working on my sitar obsession. We'll see. We'll see about it. But, Millie, huge week this week. Huge episode this week.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

Very excited to talk about Dig, a movie I'd never seen before. But I wanted to do something, which I mentioned a few episodes back, about checking in with The Criterion Channel24.7 Feed and seeing if we can guess the movie. Okay, are you ready to dive into the Criterion Channel?

[Millie De Chirico]

Oh, yeah. So basically, for people that don't know, this is, you know, the Criterion Channel, which is, you know, the Criterion Collections streaming service, they actually have a section of their app where you can watch, like, a live feed 24 hours. And they just throw movies on there. There's no intros or commercials or anything. It's just a live feed of movies back to back to back. And then in order to find out what they're actually playing, you have to go to this separate section is called what's on now Dot Criterion dot com. You got it?

[Casey O'Brien]

Okay. Yeah, no, I got it. I was saying don't look at what.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah, I'm not looking at it, bro. I'm playing the game fair.

[Casey O'Brien]

Okay. Okay.

[Millie De Chirico]

But basically, we're gonna go to the channel, see what's on there, and try to guess what it could be.

[Casey O'Brien]

Okay, you ready? I'll do three, two, one, click.

[Millie De Chirico]

Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on. Let me get there. Let me get there.

[Casey O'Brien]

Okay, Here we go. 3, 2, 2, 1, click.

[Millie De Chirico]

Okay, it's French. It's French. It looks 70s.

[Casey O'Brien]

It looks 70s. Like a. It looks like it could have been a TV movie.

[Millie De Chirico]

Oh, okay. This. I'm trying to figure out who the man is that's talking.

[Casey O'Brien]

We've literally been on a shot of a woman sitting down. She has a white collar and a black vest. It seems of contemporary of the time. Okay, now they're in a cafe.

[Millie De Chirico]

Oh.

[Casey O'Brien]

A turtlenecked Frenchman has his arm around this woman.

[Millie De Chirico]

Oh, shit. This is looking kind of more 80s now.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah. This isn't a Robert Bresson movie, is it?

[Millie De Chirico]

No. Maybe it's like a. Is it like a.

[Casey O'Brien]

God, the fashion is good.

[Millie De Chirico]

Dart. I mean, they're kind of like a dard. Well, only because they feel like they're kind of. They're kind of short with each other and I don't know. Maybe talking.

[Casey O'Brien]

Is this an Eric Romer movie? No. You don't think so?

[Millie De Chirico]

I don't think. I don't know. They're talking about their relationship. It's like a man and a woman talking about the relationship, which is very Romero esque, but for some reason, the stiffness of them in the shot makes me think it's a guitar thing.

[Casey O'Brien]

Okay, well, you. What?

[Millie De Chirico]

You.

[Casey O'Brien]

Let's go with a guess. Do you have a guess?

[Millie De Chirico]

I don't know. I really don't know.

[Casey O'Brien]

I can't even come up with one Godard movie from the 80s.

[Millie De Chirico]

I know. I'm just gonna say. I'm gonna say nothing and just see what it is.

[Casey O'Brien]

Okay, let's see what it is. What is it?

[Millie De Chirico]

Oh, Love in the Afternoon. That was a Romere movie. Good for you.

[Casey O'Brien]

Oh, whoa.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

Some people in this band should start paying attention to the things I say.

[Millie De Chirico]

1972'S Love in the Afternoon. So we got the decade. You got the director. I should have just definitely listened to it.

[Casey O'Brien]

Not in the Afternoon. I would have never been able to pull that one out of my butt, though, so.

[Millie De Chirico]

Well, I'm proud of you. You got, like, two out of three. You shouldn't get the title.

[Casey O'Brien]

All right, one point for Casey. Okay, Millie, moving on. It's time for our film diary. Open up the film diary.

[Millie De Chirico]

Oh, do you want to get heavy? This is heavy. This is a heavy diary because I.

[Casey O'Brien]

Don'T know the song you just sang.

[Millie De Chirico]

I don't even know it either. I think it might be a John Spencer Blues Explosion song. I don't know.

[Casey O'Brien]

Ah, that would be appropriate for this episode.

[Millie De Chirico]

Sure.

[Casey O'Brien]

Millie, what have you watched this past week?

[Millie De Chirico]

Okay, So I watched 1, 2, 3. I watched four things. It's pretty good.

[Casey O'Brien]

That is good.

[Millie De Chirico]

I watched two documentaries. One was a big flashpoint documentary. The other is just sort of something I've been wanting to see for a while because I like the subject. So the first documentary I saw is called Rude Boy the Story of Trojan Records. It was made in 2018, and it's essentially a documentary about the ska reggae label, Trojan Records. And if you are a Jamaican music aficionado like I am, then you will know what I'm talking about. I thought it was okay. I thought there was kind of too many reenactments, which.

[Casey O'Brien]

Interesting.

[Millie De Chirico]

It's unfortunate because a lot of the people who were involved in ska music in the 60s are dead because of old age. There was a couple of people still alive, and that was pretty interesting. But then the Most, most of the documentary was kind of done in this like weird, almost kind of like Netflix movie esque reenactment thing, which.

[Casey O'Brien]

That's so interesting. I'm not used to a reenactment in that type of documentary. I think of that more in like true crime documentaries.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah, it made me wonder because a lot of times you see, you know, in place of something like that would be ephemera, like from the era, like newspaper clippings and you know, like video. And not video would be film because it was the 60s, 70s. But it made me think that I just didn't have enough of the, you know, archives to really fill that part out. So it was weird. I liked the subject but thought it was kind of okay. Then I saw, speaking of Netflix, a huge documentary that's right now in the Zeitgeist. It's called Unknown Number the High School Catfish.

[Casey O'Brien]

Oh yeah. This is all over. This is all over the place.

[Millie De Chirico]

Oh yeah.

[Craig Calcatera]

Woo.

[Millie De Chirico]

Have you seen it?

[Casey O'Brien]

I haven't. I knew about this because we discussed it on. That's messed up.

[Millie De Chirico]

Oh, I see.

[Casey O'Brien]

So I knew the twist and I've seen, obviously I've seen the tiktoks that have been popping up of people being surprised by the twist ending.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

But. So I'm well aware of it, but I haven't seen it.

[Millie De Chirico]

But it's like I kept thinking when I was watching this, I was like, how they could do this all day, all night. Like there are so many like weird little stories like this. They could be making true crime documentaries until the end of time.

[Casey O'Brien]

I think they're trying to.

[Millie De Chirico]

They are trying to. And then I saw two movies. I finally saw weapons from 2025.

[Casey O'Brien]

What'd you think?

[Millie De Chirico]

Fun. Fun, Weird. It was kind of weird.

[Casey O'Brien]

It's weirder than I think people talk about. It is sort of a strange. It has a strange feel to it.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah, there was some funny parts. There was. I had a couple questions. There were a couple questions that I had about it. Danny. I watched it with Danielle actually, because she was in town and we went to the movie theater that. My infamous movie theater which gets shut down all the time because of bad teens. We managed to make it through the entire movie, but basically we were like, huh, what was. There was a part where there was spoilers. Yes, spoiler. Sorry. I mean, maybe not. I don't know if this is a spoiler, but there was a part where there's like a. Like a giant AR15 rifle that's like cascading on this night sky.

[Casey O'Brien]

Huh.

[Millie De Chirico]

Why?

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah, I kind of was like, it's either like something I don't understand or it's so completely on the nose that I. It's bizarre that it's in here.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yes.

[Casey O'Brien]

Because it's a weapon.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yes.

[Casey O'Brien]

Like, I don't know.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah. I was gonna say, are we just making sure we know why the title of the movie is the way it is? Anyway, there was a lot. A lot of moving parts in that movie. But otherwise I thought it was fun. Like, that was the thing about Barbarian, which was the movie that the director had, the first one he did. There was a lot of big fucking concepts in that movie too. And I was like, you know what? I'm just in for this ride. It's funny, it's weird. I'm in.

[Casey O'Brien]

So anyway, I would say about weapons, this isn't a spoiler either. I don't know if the chapter structure of that movie totally worked for me.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

Because I sometimes really felt deflated when we were on different storylines, so.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah, agreed. Well, anyway, I'm gonna have to sit with it a little bit more and probably rewatch it. I'm definitely gonna rewatch it then. I rewatched this because, you know, there's a little bit of bite in the air. Fall sort of in the air here in Atlanta. It probably is same here. Yeah. It's probably gonna get hot again. But the past week or so it's been kind of like 75, 78 degrees, which I'm loving.

[Casey O'Brien]

The leaves are starting to turn here.

[Millie De Chirico]

Oh, wow.

[Casey O'Brien]

So we're beginning to enter that spooky season.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yes. Well. And I think, because I was maybe be jumping the gun a little bit to be starting to watch horror movies, but I was like, okay. I was with some friends and we were like, let's watch or re. Watch John Carpenter's Prince of darkness from 1987.

[Casey O'Brien]

I got a soft spot. I got a soft spot in my heart for this one.

[Millie De Chirico]

Good for you. Somebody has to. Because I gotta tell you, this might be one of the. My least favorite John Carpenter movies.

[Casey O'Brien]

Talk about moving parts, dude.

[Millie De Chirico]

I was like, do I need to sit down with that professor and get him to kind of explain to me what the. Is going on? Like, there's a lot of. A lot of. It's real heady. Like, I'm just like, what? Like, why are we. What are we doing? What is this thing? Why are these people here? What's this portal? What's this? You know, I don't know. I just have a lot of questions.

[Casey O'Brien]

There are like 900 characters introduced.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yes.

[Casey O'Brien]

And they're. I would say most of them are killed, but it's like ridiculous how many people they introduce just to kill them very quickly. It's almost like MacGruber esque.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yes. So there's a lot. There's too many people. It's too like esoteric of a concept. I do like the fact that there's three Asian characters. I was like, wow, that's an all time high. I like the gore once it starts happening, but honestly, there's like multiple scenes where Donald Pleasence is like just sitting at a desk talking to the. The professor and I'm like, what is this boring? What the hell are they doing? They're just having the most boring conversation of all time and we happen to be dropping in on it multiple times. Mm. So I'm just. I don't know. Not enough action for me, I suppose. And I'm not saying I hear you. I'm not saying I need it to be wall to wall disgusting, but I just. It's a little. One of my least favorite Carpenter movies. So anyway, okay.

[Casey O'Brien]

So I saw that movie for the first time. They had a screening of it at a theater, which is. The theater is a converted church and it's where they shot the movie. So I saw Prince of Darkness where it was shot.

[Millie De Chirico]

That's great.

[Casey O'Brien]

In the church where it was shot.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

And it was like a very. And it was a very bizarre feeling exiting the theater from the like in the same place where I just was in the movie.

[Millie De Chirico]

Is it in Pasadena? Where is that?

[Casey O'Brien]

No, it's in downtown la.

[Millie De Chirico]

Oh, wow.

[Casey O'Brien]

So I believe it's an Asian American theater group theater now, so.

[Millie De Chirico]

Interesting.

[Casey O'Brien]

But anyways, it was a very memorable screening experience for that film.

[Millie De Chirico]

That'd be fun. I'd probably like it a little bit more if that were the case.

[Casey O'Brien]

Probably would.

[Millie De Chirico]

That concludes my film diary. What about yours?

[Casey O'Brien]

Okay. I watched three movies this week.

[Millie De Chirico]

Okay.

[Casey O'Brien]

One is from 2022. It's called Hannah. Ha ha. It's a little indie movie. Have you ever heard of this?

[Millie De Chirico]

Never.

[Casey O'Brien]

It was very cute. It was written and directed by Joshua Pigofsky and Jordan Tatuski. It's sort of a gentle Kelly Reichardt esque movie, sort of a slacker movie about this 26 year old Hannah who takes care of her sick father and she needs to get a job, basically. And that sucks. But it was fun and it was funny and it's a good New England summer movie. That's what I felt. It was kind of mumblecore esque how.

[Millie De Chirico]

Did you find out about this movie?

[Casey O'Brien]

I don't know. Trisha brought it to me and I said, let's watch it.

[Millie De Chirico]

Okay. Okay.

[Casey O'Brien]

I don't know where she gets her things.

[Millie De Chirico]

That's excellent.

[Casey O'Brien]

It won, like, the slam dance best feature or something.

[Millie De Chirico]

Okay.

[Casey O'Brien]

It won some slam dance awards, so it was of some renown, but it was good. Then I watched 1998's A Simple Plan with Billy Bob Thornton, Bill Paxton, Bridget Fonda. Have you ever seen this movie?

[Millie De Chirico]

No.

[Casey O'Brien]

It's directed by Sam Raimi and it's set in rural Minnesota, and it's like small town crime Minnesota movie. Two years after Fargo came out.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

And it's directed by Sam Raimi, who's, like, best friends with the Coen brothers. So I was kind of like.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

Perplexed by. Why does this movie exist? It's very Fargo esque.

[Millie De Chirico]

I remember when it came out because I remember the trailers playing and they were like, in the woods with, like, a shovel and some shit.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah. And it's. It's snowy. It's set in the winter, like Fargo. So I was just kind of like, why'd you make this movie? It was fun and it's, like, violent and it's like a crime movie with, you know, these, like, kind of lunk heads. But I don't know. It was okay.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

Then I watched Shockwaves, which is a zombie, not a Nazi zombie movie from the 70s starring the beautiful Brooke Adams, who I love.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yes.

[Casey O'Brien]

It's set in the tropics, though, for some reason. And I know they explain how the Nazi zombies got there, but I can't remember why they got there. And it was set in a. An abandoned castle, but yeah, so it was fine. It was a pretty unsubstantial zombie horror movie.

[Millie De Chirico]

Unsubstantial. Interesting.

[Casey O'Brien]

So it was fine?

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

That's all I got.

[Millie De Chirico]

Okay. That's a pretty good swath of films, all very different.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yes, we try to keep it varied in the o' Brien household, but let's close up the diary.

[Millie De Chirico]

Oh, God, this diary is so. Oh, God, it's too much.

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[Casey O'Brien]

All right, moving on to our main topic. Dig xx 2024 thank you for saying it properly. Directed by Andy Timiner, who I've met. Oh yeah, Dig. What a great movie. This is kind of one of the major rock docs of all time I would say. And it was a big deal when it came out. Did you see this when it came out? And what was your opinion of it when it came out?

[Millie De Chirico]

Oh God dude, I don't even know what to tell you because of course I saw when it came out because I was.

[Casey O'Brien]

You lived it.

[Millie De Chirico]

I lived it. I was there. I mean I wasn't friends with these bands. I knew people from a band that one. This is gonna be very blind eyed on me but I'm gonna say it. I knew somebody, I was friends with somebody who was in a band with one of the Brian Jonestown Massacre guys after they left. The Brian Jonestown Massacre.

[Casey O'Brien]

What could that be?

[Millie De Chirico]

You gotta.

[Casey O'Brien]

I don't know. So you knew you had sort of a personal relationship. You were kind of tangentially, you were kind. You could almost had a connection to these people.

[Millie De Chirico]

Well, but I think even beyond that, not. Not as if I sat around with this person being like, so tell me what it was like for your bandmate to be in this legendary, fucking fucked up band. Right beyond that. I was working in college radio from the years of like late 1997 till the summer of 2002. Okay.

[Casey O'Brien]

Which is perfectly. This movie was filmed from 1996 to 2003. So you were right inside of this era.

[Millie De Chirico]

Absolutely. I was in college radio. I was going to places like CMJ and South by Southwest. I was seeing bands like this. I was seeing the people who were around bands like this. I was a dj. I was a club DJ at the same time. So I was also playing and I was a club. I was a club DJ or a bar DJ from. I would say I really started DJ out in like maybe 2000 to like. I mean, I DJ'd for a very long time, like even after I started my job at tcm. But my years that I was a real. Like, I was, you know, I had a weekly night at this bar called Lenny's in Atlanta that's no longer. But I also DJed at places like MJQ and at Mary's and some other places. I was there for like 2000 and maybe like 2005, 2006. So. Yeah, and I mean, I'm talking about, you know, I was in my late teens, early 20s, going out multiple nights a week, going to Brit pop nights. More on that in a second. But just being in the. In the sauce of this kind of scene in this world and definitely knowing people who were going to see Brian Jonestown Massacre and Dandy Warhol's and all associated acts.

[Casey O'Brien]

So where to begin with this conversation? I mean, it's. Maybe I should. Maybe I'll just do a synopsis really quickly so we can just sort of jump off. So this was originally released in 2004, like we said. And we kind of watched the updated version that came out this year. And I mean, I really enjoyed the updates in the movie. It's about the struggle and the love hate relationship between two bands. This is a documentary, by the way. The Dandy Warhols and the Brian Jonestown Massacre. They were at one point like really best friends. And then they started to despise each other, but they also still loved each other. It's a very lovely hate sort of thing. The film actually particularly focuses on the volatile lead singer of bjm, Anton Newcomb. And there are multiple all out brawls on stage, tantrums, death threats, the Dandy Warhol's. It's also kind of about the Dandy Warhol's ascent and I'm putting that into quotes. They signed to a major label and they play like major festivals while BJM is sort of, I don't know, they're having trouble like getting signed or even making it through one of their shows. So they sort of start from the same place and one sort of ascends to a higher level during the course of the documentary. But that's essentially the whole movie.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah. Okay, so I want to ask you, maybe because you're a little younger than me. Yes. Okay. Did you see this when it came out or what was your experience with this whole fandango?

[Casey O'Brien]

I think by the time that I kind of discovered this documentary and even the Dandy Warhols and the Brian Jonestown Massacre, I was so allergic to like, both of their names are pun Portmanteaus, which is like so embarrassing and stupid. And I think by the time I sort of discovered this, I feel like Brit pop as we knew it in the 90s was out the door. The 90s obsession with 1960s Britain was kind of over. And so they just felt like relics pretty quickly to me. And so I just didn't really have any desire to listen to their music or to watch this movie when it came out. So I only saw it a few days ago for the first time. And I'd never listened to either of these bands. I mean, I knew some of their songs, but I've never listened to these bands.

[Millie De Chirico]

Well, okay, this is. So you bring up this really interesting point that I feel like I have to, I must in fact iron out because some people are going to look at this and go, this is indie sleaze. Right. And I see why you would think that. But I feel like this, like I would say Brian Jonestown Massacre and Dandy Warhol specifically and a couple of other bands were kind of actually more of this like bridge in the Brit pop to indie sleaze pipeline.

[Casey O'Brien]

They're kind of. They're sort of proto indie sleaze. Like they're not. I wouldn't include them in there.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah, I definitely agree with you they're the kind of pathway to what would be called indie sleaze. And I think it's.

[Casey O'Brien]

And indie sleaze, as we've discussed before, is only a term that's come out in the last couple of years. It was not referred to as such while it was happening. I feel like we use the term hipster a lot. That was like, how we defined that genre.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah, I would say it was like hipster white belt music. I've heard it. There's also a lot of throwing around of the term electro clash, even though electroclass is a completely separate thing than like, the Strokes and the. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And things of that nature. But the way that I envisioned it when I was in the mix is that mid to late 90s, there were Brit pop nights happening probably in most major cities. There was like, at least one or two. There was the Wednesday night at MJQ in Atlanta, but then there was also places like Club Bang and stuff in LA and places in New York. Every. Every city had a bread pop night for the most part. And this was primarily a place for young people to congregate to listen to, like, whatever the new Brit pop bands were at the time, which was, you know, Blur, Pulp, Suede, a lot of, like, 80s British music like the Smiths and the Cure and New Order. Because when I say Brit pop night, the term Brit pop night got it kind of a wonky. It got kind of wonky after a while. Okay? And this is why I think that there is a pipeline between Brit pop to indie sleaze. Because Brit pop night was like, again, modern British bands of like, Oasis of the, you know, like I said, freaking super Grass Travis, you know, like, all these bands being played alongside 80s, you know, alternative music for the most part, but then also 60s kind of mod rock stuff. So, like, early who, the Small Faces, garage rock, ish stuff, you know, it was this kind of melding of like the Nuggets box set, basically. The Nuggets box set. Anything that was kind of like coming from Britain in the 60s. Like, the rolling Stones was absolutely just like the number one band for all these kids, but then also, again, like, kind of moving into this, like, Brit pop of the 90s thing. Then towards the end of the 90s, I would say you're right, Brit pop was kind of moving out of the conversation. And there was, weirdly enough, a lot of, like, dance and club music that was kind of coming into the world. But it wasn't really a Britpop night thing. Like, they would play, like, Daft punk once in a while. But like that would probably. Or Air was a huge band that they would play Brit pop Night. Les Rhythms, digital, you know, kind of French house stuff that was. Was sort of like topical for Brit pop night. And then when you started going into the 2000s, that's when the Strokes and the. Yeah yeah yeah came along. The Rapture was a huge band, you know, that kind of stuff, like the DFA records, things moving into that kind of James Murphy vibe. So that's really where I think the pipeline is, is Brit pop Night. Because Brit pop night began encompassing so many different little micro genres. And it was really just about getting white hipster kids to get wasted, do drugs and dance. That was all it was about.

[Casey O'Brien]

Well, it's interesting because watching this, obviously like the Brit pop nights, it sounds like it's a lot of like referencing to like kind of a. It's kind of a nostalgia trip.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yes.

[Casey O'Brien]

You know, and that is the entire band especially I feel like the Brian Jonestown Massacre.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yes.

[Casey O'Brien]

They are like trying to relive the 1960s. Like their music is that way. The way they dress. I mean, like Joel Guillen, who. I'm sure we'll get into more later. He's always like, the feds are out to get us, man. Like they're like talking like they're from the 60s.

[Millie De Chirico]

Although the feds are out to get us, Casey. I mean, do you know that, right?

[Casey O'Brien]

Well, sure. Yes, of course he was 100% correct about that. But they're. And then like even being like, I co wrote this song with Charlie Manson and it's like. It's so annoying and unoriginal.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

Like they thought they were so original, but like the fact that their name is the Brian Jonestown Massacre. I mean, like, what a joke.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah, but see, at the time I would argue. I'm not defending it, by the way, I. It is so eye rolly. Like when I watched this doc, like I was like. Because, you know, here's my take quickly. When I first saw it, when it was actually. It felt like it was happening. So in this weird way I was like. It felt like the documentary was happening in real time. And it was sort of like. So the documentary came out in 2004, the original dig. Okay, so it was still kind of happening. And it felt like in a weird way it was sort of lionizing these two bands that were sort of like, okay, does that make sense? It was almost kind of like trying to create a legend before any time had passed to where a band could become A legend. Like, I understand that they were badly behaved and they were doing tons of drugs, and the lifestyle was crazy even back then. Like, I. Like, they were hitting it real hard. Like, if you're doing heroin, like, it's. It's.

[Casey O'Brien]

You're hitting where they. The way they lived was. It was like, it's one thing to be like, I'm a bad boy, you know, But I was like, the way you live is so disgusting.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah. Oh. But I. But I knew people who lived that way here in Atlanta, too.

[Casey O'Brien]

Sure.

[Millie De Chirico]

And it was just like, back then, even when I was roughly their age, I was like, oh, I just started my adult job, and I'm. No, I'm no longer doing speed and selling painkillers to people, you know? Like, I just kind of cleaned up the act a little bit. But I. Again, I was one of the. I have friends that told. Have told me, like, I was one of the first people that they knew in their friend group that got a real job. So people were still partying like that. But it was like, even back then, I was like, they're going real hard, like, to be that. To be sleeping, like, behind dumpsters on patio cushions and to, like, in the middle of nowhere. Yeah. To just, like, have no money and having. And having to, like, steal things and stuff. That was kind of a little bit of a bridge too far for me. But it was like. But I also thought, why are we doing a documentary on these bands? Is it because they're just, like, loud and drunk and they fight? Like, what?

[Casey O'Brien]

I mean, it is. I thought it was a great documentary just because these personalities are so outrageous.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah. But it's just interesting to be in the time period that when it's happening in real time and you're like, oh, I don't know. Are we exacerbating this behavior by just putting a camera on these people who are complete maniacs and love attention and just making this spectacle? Like, I don't know. I'm sitting here going, like, are we just pumping this entire scene full of air when we just need them to clean up enough to live like normal human beings? I don't know. It was crazy. I do. I. You know, I think the message of the documentary is pretty simple at the end of the day, which is that, like, there's always going to be, like, two types of people in this scene. One that wants to. To stay underground and not sell out, and the other is the person that wants to be in an actual band and make money and be able to buy their mom A house type of thing that's always like the confluence between these two essences in rock and roll. Is that like do you sell out or do you become a millionaire? Right?

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Millie De Chirico]

And we've talked about this during the K Pop episode where it feels like that the goals of that are so different now than they were back in 2004. Like, I feel like now you couldn't even have a band like the Brian Jones Hamasker because they just wouldn't do anything. Like, it's almost kind of like the. The point is not. The point is now to just make money because there's so many points of entry for musicians at this point. It's like, well, if you're in the game at all, what are you doing?

[Casey O'Brien]

It's interesting watching the movie at the time because a band like the Dandy Warhols could become huge and make a ton of money. Like a rock band could become huge and you know, like the Strokes or the White Stripes or the Rapture or the. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we don't really have popular music. Like what's the most popular band now? You know. And so it was interesting watching this. Cause I was like, this just doesn't exist anymore. Like a band that has like indie roots could not make a ton of money now it feels like.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah, I mean, like I said, I don't think that a band like the Brian Jones Town Massacre could exist on a commercial level at all.

[Casey O'Brien]

Like, or the Dandy War because A.

[Millie De Chirico]

There'S no record labels to sign bands anymore. I mean, let's consider as the music industry is fucking destroyed, there isn't a record label like TVT Records that's gonna court a band like Brian Jonestown Massacre. A, because they don't even work in the same ways that they do as they did in 2004. The music industry was still pretty much intact in 2004, except Napster had taken over. But it was also like now they're not. They would never take a chance on a band that was completely up on drugs and antisocial. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, they're like. It's almost kind of like a ticket to hell. Like a one way ticket to hell. And they wouldn't even entertain that anymore because they only want to produce like Sabrina Carpenters, if that makes any.

[Casey O'Brien]

Totally. But it was kind of funny because I feel like the Brian Jonestown Massacre are like, well, we're kind of cosplaying as like the Rolling Stones. We're bad boys. Like we're like this is what it takes to become a successful rock group where they're like, emulating that type of personality. But even at the time of the documentary, they're kind of like, well, no, the world has moved up. You can't actually act like that anymore. That's like unacceptable behavior now. You know, it was like, so it was sort of funny seeing them kind of like run headfirst into that reality.

[Millie De Chirico]

Right. Well. And what I think becomes part of the documentary is the ways in which the Danny Warhols are able to, like, rein in their hedonism, to be able to, like, actually play gigs and be reasonable. I mean, they still have their little tiffs. Yeah, they do that with the David LaChapelle section, where David LaChapelle does a music video and they're like. I mean, it was almost kind of like the lead singer of the Danny Warhol's. His name. Courtney.

[Casey O'Brien]

Courtney Taylor. Taylor.

[Millie De Chirico]

Basically. He was like, I know I'm. I know I look like a pouty, beautiful model with my low rise jeans, but I don't want you to film me like that. I want. I want to be like a real rocker. It was kind of like him in a weird way, kind of telling this fashion photographer like, don't make me hot. Did you get.

[Casey O'Brien]

That was so funny because he was like, yeah, can we. Can we just come back and like, reshoot this once my hair has grown out? And I was like, you guys are on set right now. Like, that's not good. That's not possible, buddy. But I felt like he was kind of like trying to be like Anton. Like, he really admired Anton. And so every time he, Courtney, threw kind of a fit, it felt like he was just doing it to be like, well, this is what real artists do. This is how real artists behave.

[Millie De Chirico]

Right. And I feel like this. This documentary made me kind of question my deep seated belief in my older age, which is that there are very. There are actually really few actually creative people in this world. Like, for all of the, like, social media ness of people saying that they've got bands and movies and record labels and art projects and stuff, it just seems that, like, everybody is an artist and everybody can create art in any kind of way they want to. Yeah. Most of it is actually not very creative. And there's a very, like, there's even a smaller amount of actual creative people than we ever thought in the world. And that most people have just been able to create their art because they were adjacent to someone who was more creative than them. Does that make sense?

[Casey O'Brien]

It does. Do you feel like there is any creative people in this movie or they were all adjacent to something?

[Millie De Chirico]

I actually think that there. There is a creative, like, say what you want about Anton Newcomb in this. In this documentary. Right. And again, I would like to maybe create a line of demarcation between who he is in real life right now versus what was shown in the documentary. Does that make sense? Because I don't know him at all. I'm not friends with him. I don't know who he is in real life. I can only speak about what I saw in a documentary that was made about him. Now, whether or not that's him him or that's him pretending to be like a much more exaggerated version of himself, I don't know. That's the power of a documentary is that you don't know those things.

[Casey O'Brien]

And I mean, that was one of the criticisms of the documentary by the people who are in it, where they're like, well, it was filmed over the course of eight years, and they were like, basically they took all the Jerry Springer moments. That's what they said, and put them together and. Which, of course, you would. To make the documentary interesting. But I will say, after watching the movie, I was kind of like, in the Brian Jonestown Massacre storyline, there are no. There are only low points. So it would.

[Millie De Chirico]

It.

[Casey O'Brien]

You don't quite get the full.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah, but anyways, I just don't want to, like, you know, talk about somebody who is still living that I don't know. I'd rather speak about them via the documentary I watched as a viewer. Okay. Yes, I was. I will say in the documentary, Anton seems very creative. He seems kind of. Well, first of all, he definitely has, like, the need to be creative. He had such a rough life, according to what was going on with his dad, at least. And he's definitely probably, you know, in the. Via the documentary at least has probably some mental illness in his family and maybe in his own life. Right. But I also think that, you know, so he could definitely write songs. He's got amazing influences. You can't deny that. Like, the stuff that he likes and the. The stuff that he channels is awesome. Like, all of these things are great things to like, like 60s psychedelic bands and, you know, countercultural people, countercultural figures. I mean, Harry Dean Stanton is in the movie at one point.

[Casey O'Brien]

I thought. Yeah. And the music was good. And he obviously is like. I thought he was a very creative person. And some of the more interesting parts of the movie are when he's collaborating on, like, Recording the music. Cause you can actually tell he's like pretty focused and like using other people and collaborating in a positive way. It seems like things sort of fell apart during the live performances, but during the actual like creation of music, it seems like he really thrives and is like very creative. So.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah, I mean, you know, it seems like there's another person in the Brian Jonestown Massacre, Matt Hollywood, who seems to have written a lot of the songs. He looks exactly like John Lennon. I mean I was like.

[Casey O'Brien]

He was, he was very looked at like John Lennon.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yes. But you know, there are always like going to be in a situation like that, there's going to be at least one or two creative people who are actually creative. I think my argument is really that like legit creative people a lot of times can actually function in society. It is exactly like you, you see it in a documentary, which is that like somebody that's absolutely a pure creative visionary, a lot of times is destroyed by that notion.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah. And like they may, they might not be able to navigate the intricacies and the politics of working with a record label.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yes.

[Casey O'Brien]

You know, they can't do both of those things at the same time.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yes. Like a lot of people that have inspired me over the years that are just super interesting, super creative and just like extremely like gifted at what they do, have personal problems, they have mental problems, they have socialization problems. It's not like these people are able to like navigate big corporate meetings where they're able to just be really slick and polished. Like most, most people I know who are creative and cool and interesting have problems in some way, shape or form. And especially have problems with dealing with the feds. The man, the, the thing that's trying to give them a platform. Right. Like it's, it's hard because it's like as an artist, you're sitting there going like, of course I want my music or my art to be out there. But I also have a problem with like, I have a problem with, with, with sharing that with others in a monetary way. Like it seemed to me like in the documentary. That was like the big argument because it was like the Dandy Warhols were, were easily able to like take their talent and make it bigger. And Brian Jones Ham Massacre just kept like self destructing all the time and falling on their own sword. And it was kind of like. And that was the thing to, going back to what you said, whereas the, the dandies were sort of like, maybe we're too commercial and we need a little bit more of that fire, that crate of fire. But then they would look at it and be like, well, this is a fucking disaster. We can't be that, you know.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah, no, I mean, I don't like. Which band would I rather be in? Probably the Dandy Warhols because they're not living in a dumpster. You know, they kept saying they're like the most well adjusted rock band in America, and they were. And it seemed like fun to be a member of that band. But is their music as good as the Brian Jones 10 massacre? I don't know. I'd probably say no.

[Millie De Chirico]

Well, I mean, I feel like it's. I think the argument is that it's less complex. Right. Like I would say, I mean, that I actually love at least two or three Dandy Warhol songs. Like I used to DJ bohemian like you at DJ nights when I was a dj, and the shit would fucking kill. Like, people would go crazy for that song. Everybody on the dance floor, everybody loves that like who, who, who part. I mean, you can't deny that. And there's at least like, again, like maybe two or three other songs. There's that I really like. I think that it's really catchy. But they're more pop songs, right? Yeah, they're more digestible songs than some of the Brian Jonestown stuff that I've heard. So it's like. And I'm not saying that they're not as good because they're not making poppier music, but I just think that obviously there's a reason why one band went more commercial route and the other one didn't. And it's funny because the label that ended up trying to sign them, there was like this moment I was having. First of all, I was completely having flashbacks every fucking five seconds. Like it was like going back to music industry days, club nights, knowing people like this. I mean, Joel's hair, I don't even want it.

[Casey O'Brien]

We gotta talk about Joel Gyan, who is sort of representative of a whole identity.

[Millie De Chirico]

If. If you don't know what he looks like, imagine just imagine a hipster from this era dressed in all black, rail thin, little black motorcycle jacket, with like a low rise pair of slacks. And then this hair that most people at this point have called the Shotgun Blast, which is basically like hair that is blown out in the back, spiky short, and then the front part is all slicked down. I mean, it was kind of made famous by John and Kate plus eight. That's what a lot of people used to say. It was like the Kate Gosselin hair.

[Casey O'Brien]

The Can I speak to your manager hair.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah, well, bitch, I had that fucking hair back in this era, okay? If you looked at my makeup club profile, I definitely had it. And it was not influenced by John and Kate plus eight. That came out later. For me, my influence was coming from the Jesus and Mary chain. That's who I wanted to look like. I wanted to look like Robert Smith or the Jesus, the marriage, with my wild, crazy black hair. And I just would not wash it, then run a bunch of, like, sticky, tacky stuff through it and then just mess it up. Bed head style. But then the front part had to have this shape because I just. Yeah, I had short bangs. So I was like. I had his hair as well. So I'm telling you, when I saw Joel from the Brian Jonestown Massacre, I was immediately rocketed. Rocketed back to that hairstyle.

[Casey O'Brien]

And I did write in my notes, I feel like Millie knew a lot of Jules because he is like a caricature of a person in this movie. And he is very much playing the 1960s San Francisco guy in this movie. Just the way he talks, the way he acts, the way he dresses. It's like he's always in character. And it's so funny because he is probably the most loyal member of the band to Anton. He plays the damn tambourine.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah, he's the tambourine.

[Casey O'Brien]

He's a tambourine player. I don't think he sings. He might sing, but he doesn't write any of the music. He's just a tambourine player. And I don't know. I feel like you could take or leave a tambourine player. I don't know if that's a necess. A vital member of your band.

[Millie De Chirico]

Well, he's the visual. He's the.

[Casey O'Brien]

He's the visual.

[Millie De Chirico]

He's the boss stone.

[Casey O'Brien]

But I just feel like I as a person, and he seems like a very creative person. He's a writer and stuff. I wouldn't put up with all the bullshit of the movie if I was just like, I'm just on stage playing the damn tambourine. I don't know how he is so committed to this lifestyle. It takes something that I don't understand, I guess.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah, I guess it's just like a commitment to the mission. Plus, it's like. I don't know. I definitely see why people were drawn to Anton. Like, I think that was kind of another running theme in the movie is just. I mean, he always had girlfriends. He was married, obviously, at one point.

[Casey O'Brien]

The hottest women wanting him.

[Millie De Chirico]

And just going back slightly to what I was saying about the music industry, there was this whole section where, you know, obviously, like, all, like, TVT records, which I don't even know if they exist anymore, but they were trying to court. There was all this conversation about how the Brian Jonestown Massacre was like, a favorite of every A and R person in the industry. And that's probably true. I mean, I remember them being very talked about, like the next big thing. They were. I mean, everybody had them on the tip of their tongues in this era, whether or not you wanted to admit it. But it was that feeling of. Of like, who is going to be able to tame this monster? Like, who's going to be able to make the Brian Jones Massacre a viable commercial band? And that's kind of what I saw in the documentary, was TVT being like, we're going to do it. We're going to be the ones that make them show up, and they're going to make 100 albums with us, and they're going to stop doing drugs and stop fighting, and we're going to make a million trillion fucking dollars. And obviously that did not happen. But it's the same instinct that all these other people had towards Anton in the documentary, which is that I'm gonna be the person that grounds this person. I'm gonna be next to this person who's extremely interesting and charismatic and up and all the things. And I'm gonna, like, be the avatar, the. The person that can get it and. And be by their side. And I feel like that's kind of like Joel, at the end of the day. He was like, yeah, you know, I'm. I'm gonna be the one in the band that, like. I mean, I'm part of it, but I'm also like, I'm aware of things to a certain degree.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah. I mean, they had to fly Joel to the record label meetings in place of Anton to, like, make sure they got this contract signed, basically.

[Millie De Chirico]

And listen, not for nothing, not to sound like some fucking tenacious dude character in. In the Tenacious D show, but I remember being in San Francisco in 1999 and going to a mod party. I went to a mod party in somebody's house, and every dude looked like Joel. Every dude looked like him. And they drove away on their little Vespas, their little mop and their Lambrettas, and they were all, like, coked out. So there was a lot of Joel's back in that era. Okay, There were.

[Casey O'Brien]

I love that you brought up the Tenacious DTV show. We need to go in a deep dive. Maybe we can dedicate a whole episode to the Tenacious DTV show.

[Millie De Chirico]

Not to be like, Captain Ed's being like, mama cast or no. What does he say? He goes, janis Joplin was washing dishes and throwing up. Then the cops busted a total setup. Like, that was me just now talking about indie sleaze and Britpop. Gross.

[Casey O'Brien]

There's a part where he's like, mama Cass was doing cheese balls in the back. That's speed mixed with cheese.

[Millie De Chirico]

I mean, this is the thing about being old, is that your every day is like, yo, every story I tell is gonna be that. It's gonna be. You come closer and closer to Captain Ed, who owns a fucking stupid little store and just regales young people with like, their fucked up stories of their childhood. And I'm like, I'm doing it right now. This is the podcast that's making me into Captain Ed.

[Casey O'Brien]

Oh, my God. It was interesting in the documentary because there are people who are like, self aware of what's going on. And one of them I felt like was Miranda Richards.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yes.

[Casey O'Brien]

I always enjoyed when they interviewed her because she was like, kind of in the band, but she was like, not enough to where she's like living with them or like she was able to remove herself. So it wasn't like totally. She didn't get totally, like dirtied by them. But she had these quotes about Anton and like, their bad behavior. And she's like, they're emulating these bad boys from the 60s with their drug habits and their fighting and stuff. But all those bands did the drugs after they became famous. And Brian Jonestown Massacre aren't even famous yet, you know, and it's like, it.

[Millie De Chirico]

Is kind of just a reverse engineer scenario going on because, yeah, that's their biggest. Like, I think the big question coming out of something like Dig X acts is saying, like, what could they have? Like, if they just completely cleaned up, could they have made it? Could they have now been on the, like, reunion tours that the Dandy Warhols are on, you know, making a lot of money at festivals? You know, I mean, I think the biggest thing that came out of this redux of Dig XX, which wasn't in the first documentary from 2004, was obviously when they got back together and what was it, 2023 in Australia. And then they just fucking kicked each other's ass again.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah, right. And they're like in their 50s and 60s and they're fighting on stage Again. And it's like, I couldn't believe it. And it wasn't really an act necessarily.

[Millie De Chirico]

Well, and like, this is the thing that I think is really interesting because I remember when that happened, all the comments, like, everybody that I knew that was posting about this story were people of my age. Like, they were like, oh, look at these fucking tools. Back at it again. Glad that, you know, I didn't see them back in 2001 because, you know, I have friends that have tried to see them in the past and they can't get their. Together. They're always fighting. It was kind of just like a. A mixed bag on whether or not you were actually going to see them perform music, I guess. But it was like, you know, people my age that were kind of like, I can't believe these are 50 and they're still doing this. Right. But I think it's what's really interesting about the nostalgia trip of this is I look at a band like Oasis, who right now is probably the most popular band on planet Earth.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yes.

[Millie De Chirico]

It's a mix between people by age and people who loved them back in the day. And then like, new fans like Gen Z or. Or even like late millennial fans who probably came to Oasis based on stuff like TikTok and that kind of stuff, who have definitely internalized their bad boy behavior as something to be funny or to be wild, like. So I'm kind of like, well, Oasis is now fucking selling out the Rose bowl, and I know people who are paying thousands of dollars to see them in Australia, weirdly enough. And it's. They're kind of coasting on a sort of similar line, which is this just, like, bad British guy behavior and fighting. I don't know what their secret sauce is. I don't know if they wrote better songs or they were able to get their shit together in a. In a better way, but, you know, it's like. I don't know.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah, I mean, I feel like they were just. They were just there. They were probably able to write better songs, slightly better, maybe, and then they were able to keep it together slightly better, like, just like, you know, but, yeah, what. What's the difference? They're like printing billions of dollars and, you know, Anton Newcomb is hanging out in Berlin now, so.

[Millie De Chirico]

I know it just makes you wonder if Anton Newcomb had just worn more Stone island parkas, if only, and not done heroin, and only had really done the drugs and the drinking that Liam Gallagher had still fought just as, as. As much as. As he always had, but he could just. If he had just made those slight adjustments, would they now be Oasis? Could they now be selling out the Rose Bowl?

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah, I think it's a timing issue too, because I think Oasis came out, like, just a few years before.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

You know, so I don't know. It's interesting. And I mean, I think watching Dig XX made it because I didn't see this in 2004. But if you watch that movie in 2004, you'd probably be like, oh, he's gonna be dead in a year.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

And there was a darker undercurrent to it. And so watching Dig xx, it's like, hey, no one in the band died and they comment on that. And that's sort of surprising, to be honest.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah. I actually know. Actually did Google to see if he had died because I was like, maybe I'm remembering wrong. Did he die? I don't think so, but I'll check. I'm happy that he's still alive. I'm happy that anybody that, you know, anybody that partied as hard as him and is still alive. I'm like, tip of the hat, right?

[Casey O'Brien]

Truly. I mean, it seemed like an impossible task by the end of that movie.

[Millie De Chirico]

Well, I don't know, I feel like. I'm sorry if I had all these disjointed thoughts. This episode, it just was.

[Casey O'Brien]

It touched a part deep within you, Millie.

[Millie De Chirico]

Well, and I kept thinking to myself, like, is this why, like, Gen Z are so neutered and careful about everything is because their parents were this. Their parents were around in the Brian Jonestown Massacre, Dandy Warhol's era.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah. That is an interesting question of, did this have an impact on why Gen Z is so chaste and boring?

[Millie De Chirico]

Hell, I feel like two of the Dandy Warhols became real estate agents or something. Right? Am I wrong about that?

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah. Well, one of them did. No. And one of the former members of Brian Jonestown Massacre also did. Two real estate agents. Crazy.

[Millie De Chirico]

Gotta love the coked out rocker to real estate agent pipeline.

[Casey O'Brien]

Jesus.

[Millie De Chirico]

Well, I don't know what else to say. I feel like, again, there's nothing else to say. I have, like. I was having so many feelings when I was watching this again, I started questioning my own participation in the scene, being like, should I have had my hair this way? Should I have maybe instead gone a different route? Maybe like gone to seminary school or something? I don't know. This. It felt very, like, almost kind of like, wow, I can't believe anybody that partied like this in this era. Is alive. And I knew people who partied way harder than I did. I mean, I was a prude compared to some of these other people I knew. So I don't know. I. I have nostalgia for it. I had a great time like, there. Like, unfortunately, it is true. Like, indie sleaze was really fun and it was really fun to be a DJ and like, it was really fun to have sweaty bangs and to be messy and, like, smoke a bunch of cigarettes and do shots. It was fun.

[Casey O'Brien]

Well, I think indie sleaze also, you know, it's in the title, indie. It still felt like this is our music. It didn't feel. Even though it was, you know, major labels putting it out, a lot of the times it did feel like there was some ownership and it wasn't the mainstream where, I don't know, if you go dancing out at a club now, all the music would feels like it would most like you brought up Sabrina Carpenter. It's like she's incredibly famous. It's like, I don't know, it feels like there's some sort of musical genre or like the indie music level isn't there anymore, you know?

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah, I mean, that is a huge topic of conversation and I, you know, I know we tried to crack it a little bit with the K Pop episode, but it was like. Yeah. I just think the entire music industry has changed. I think culture has completely changed. I think, you know, what we valued back then are not what people value anymore. Like, nobody cares about selling out. Nobody cares about, like, you know, trying to be, you know, respectful and classy and. And have, you know, like. No, everybody thinks in terms of brands, everybody thinks in terms of making money, you know, I mean, even older people. I mean, Oasis is making a fucking cash grab as we speak. We talked about them. I mean, they're printing fucking money and probably making their limited edition merch that, you know, you can only get for like $300 day of show. So it's like we're all succumbing to it. It's just this new era of capitalism, I suppose. But yeah, I do like it when it was a little raw, a little rough around the edges, you know?

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Millie De Chirico]

I mean, again, the music industry was still involved. It couldn't have been that we were. We're not talking about true underground, you know, Anton Newcomb type of shit. We're talking about just a different form of the same machine. But it was at least on the bar and club level and just like the hanging out level. Yeah, it was pretty up and fun and I'm happy if you're alive. I'm happy for you. I'm happy for us.

[Casey O'Brien]

Well, that's a great way to end this conversation.

[Millie De Chirico]

Okay.

[Casey O'Brien]

I'm happy. I'm happy you're alive.

[Millie De Chirico]

Okay, so we have a really great guest for this round of what we call my area of expertise, which is basically, we bring on somebody that we like to talk about their specific passion for film and very niche passion sometimes, and this is no exception. Our guest is a dear old friend of mine. He is the writer and editor of the daily baseball news and culture newsletter, cup of Coffee, which you should all be subscribing to, if you haven't already. And he's written the books Rethinking how to Beat the Sports Industrial Complex at Its Own Game, Stars of Major League Baseball and Legends of Major League Baseball. And he was the former lead national baseball writer for NBC Sports, where he launched and edited the baseball blog Hardball Talk, which is how I even know his name, to be honest. But he's a good friend. I can't wait to talk to him. He's gonna provide an amazing little nugget of expertise. And here he is. Please welcome Craig Calcatera.

[Casey O'Brien]

Welcome, Craig.

[Craig Calcatera]

Hey, thanks for having me, guys.

[Millie De Chirico]

We are stoked about this. This is. I've been wanting you to come on the pod for a while. Not gonna lie.

[Craig Calcatera]

Well, I was jealous because, like, you've had, like, a couple of really good podcasts in the past that I'm like, boy, that's a podcast I would totally go on. And now there's one I'm on. So this is fantastic.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah. Well, let's talk. You are obviously deeply steeped into the world of baseball, and, I mean, you put out a daily baseball newsletter and that shit is in my inbox at like 7am or something. It's like the news. It's like, it comes in with, like, the news, which is so fantastic.

[Craig Calcatera]

So my past life before I was a sportswriter is I was a lawyer. And when you're a lawyer, you live and die by the clock. And so when I started to be a blogger, I thought, oh, I'm gonna sit in my pajamas and do whatever the hell I want. And then I realized, no, I can't do that. I have to have a schedule and a regimen. And so, yeah, we. I put that thing out every day. It's never out after 7:00'.

[Millie De Chirico]

Clock. Oh, my gosh, it's fantastic. It has all the scores from the games the previous night. It's essential. Like I said, it's like getting the newspaper. It's fabulous and you work really hard on it. So I just wanted to say it is appreciated by us.

[Casey O'Brien]

Are you optimistic about the Minnesota Twins future at all?

[Craig Calcatera]

Oh, yeah, no, see, I'm not really optimistic about the Twins and I'm really sorry for my Minnesota friends out there, but no, man, just bad news.

[Casey O'Brien]

It's a dark time. This has been a very dark season.

[Craig Calcatera]

And it's not good for the Braves either. So neither of you guys are in, in good shape at all as far as baseball fandom going forward.

[Millie De Chirico]

I'm wearing a Dodgers hat right now.

[Casey O'Brien]

She's. She's jumped ship.

[Millie De Chirico]

I, I mean, I don't know if we've actually spoken in depth about this, Craig, but like, you know, I don't know, a couple a while ago actually, even prior to moving to la, I was like, those Braves, I don't know, they're pissing me off with the whole stadium issue. So.

[Craig Calcatera]

Yeah, White Flight Stadium in Cobb county is not exactly the best place to watch baseball anymore, I don't think.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yo. Yes, I totally agree. And being as I grew up in Cobb county, it's extra personal for me. So I, but I, but I will say that like, you know, when it comes down to baseball, I mean, like there was a period for a while where, you know, I kind of was like, I was just. I've been a super fan my entire life, but then it, there were days where I wasn't kind of every day, you know, and now I'm back. I'm back to every day. Like I bought the MLB all access thing and I am checking in with your newsletter every single day.

[Craig Calcatera]

Well, on the one hand that's great. On the other hand, I hate to break it to you, but like there's this well known, like sociologists have written patterns like papers about how baseball fandom works. And the classic model is you're really into it when you're a little kid. You sort of get out of it when you're cool and you have, you know, a life in your 20s and stuff. And then middle age is when it grabs everybody and drags you back into it. And I started to become a full time baseball writer when I was about 38 and you know, I'm in my 50s now, so it's right in the wheelhouse. And I know you're younger than me, Millie, but welcome.

[Casey O'Brien]

Is that the beginning of the end?

[Craig Calcatera]

It's a long end. It's a long end.

[Millie De Chirico]

Well, that's actually really interesting because I think Part of, I think part of what I like about baseball specifically versus other sports. I mean, I really only, really only follow basketball besides baseball, is that there is this, like, very pleasing tempo to baseball. Cause it's like long seasons. It feels like a. Almost like a show that you watch every night or something. You know, it's like you're checking in with your team, your boys, and you're just like. And I think maybe there is something to that in my middle age where I'm like, yeah, I just want to, like, come home and do my thing and check in with my show, follow my show. And like, yeah, I can totally understand why you'd pick it back up later in life.

[Craig Calcatera]

So a lot of people have romanticized it as far as that whole, oh, it's the background sound of summer. And that's true. That's absolutely how I agree with it. But the one thing that I think of it as the most applicable is it's like watching network TV back in the day when there were 23 episodes. And you know what? Look, if you miss one episode of Hunter on Friday night, you're going to be fine to watch Hunter the next week. You didn't miss anything. The stakes are so very, very low. And that's, that's what I love about baseball. Once you get to a certain age, you don't need the drama. You just don't need it. You just want it.

[Casey O'Brien]

I was gonna, I was gonna compare it to Cheers. Like, just like watching the show Cheers actually, like, you're kind of like, I want to check on, check in on my buddies. You know, it's so comforting.

[Craig Calcatera]

Yeah, there's like this whole parasocial of, oh, man, that catcher grew a mustache. That's fantastic. I have no idea what's happened for the last month, but. But he looks good. You know, it's totally casual like that. That's what I love about it.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah, for sure. I. And my Dodger fandom right now is at an all time high because I'm just like, oh, wow, they've got a lot of as and I am here for that. And I just love the whole. I don't know, I mean, the idea that they are, you know, even on social media. Like, I follow the Dodgers Instagram and stuff and it's like they're behind the scenes, like messing around and having fun. I'm like, they're my friends. I love them. They love. They love me too.

[Craig Calcatera]

So they get it right? They get it totally right. The Dodgers do. As far as that whole experience.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah. 100%. Okay. So pretty.

[Casey O'Brien]

Let's get down to business.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah. I was going to say we're not even really making that hard of a shift because it's interesting. When you brought up your area of expertise, I was like, of course, but why don't you tell everybody? What is your area of expertise?

[Craig Calcatera]

My area of expertise are actors who play athletes in movies. And whether they do a good or a bad job convincing you that they're an athlete, irrespective of how they act, irrespective of characterization or anything else, do they, like, allow you to suspend disbelief that they could be a ball player or a football player or a basketball player or something like that?

[Millie De Chirico]

That's a good one. Oh, man, I really thought about this. I mean, I'm sure you have. Like, what? Okay, so for you, is there someone that's like miles ahead of the rest, or is. I mean, is there just like one or even two people that. Or performances that you're like, this is. I feel like they're actually an athlete.

[Craig Calcatera]

There are two, actually, that the two of them stand head and shoulders above everybody else. One of them is kind of a cheat, but I don't think it's a big cheat. And the actors are Kevin Costner and Burt Reynolds.

[Millie De Chirico]

Oh, wow.

[Craig Calcatera]

Burt Reynolds is a bit of a cheat because he was a college football player at Florida state in the 50s and he. He would have gone pro. He could have been in the NFL and could have been a big star, but he blew out his knee and so then he shifted gears and got into acting and. And his two biggest sports movies were the Longest Yard and Semi Tough, which in both of which he plays a football player. So it's not that hard. But he does it so much better than even ex athletes who play roles that are in their same sport. He just does it great. Plus, he did a. He did a NASCAR driver once in a horrible, horrible movie called Stoker Ace that I watched when I was a kid.

[Millie De Chirico]

Look.

[Craig Calcatera]

Hey, look. Turkles chicken. I know this. That's a. That's one of the underrated Ned Beatty vehicles, frankly, as far as I'm concerned. But Burt Reynolds and then. And then Kevin Costner just. I don't even like Kevin Costner very much. I tend to not like him in most of the roles he plays. I don't know what about him that I don't like. But between Bull Durham for the Love of the Game and Tin cup, he was an extraordinarily convincing baseball player, an extraordinarily convincing golfer, just so much Better. Maybe he went into the wrong field, frankly.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah, he, he carries himself like an athlete. Like he has such body confidence even in non athlete movies. The way he walks, it's just there's a casual comfort in his body that I feel like a lot of athletes. And so I think that's part of the reason that he is such a convincing athlete in all these movies.

[Craig Calcatera]

There's that and there's also the fact that the sweet spot for him in all three of those movies I mentioned, he's playing sort of a once great athlete at the end of the line. And I'm guessing a lot of actors, whether they're in their 30s or 40s when they film those kinds of roles, don't want to let themselves look kind of half washed up. And for some reason Costner does a great job of that. His, he still has the arrogance and the ego that every athlete has to have to be great and probably is just part of who Kevin Costner is, frankly. But he manages to make himself look vulnerable as an athlete too. And not many do that well.

[Millie De Chirico]

So, okay, so now we've got Burt Reynolds and Kevin Costner, sort of the elite actor slash athletes. Right. What are some other memorable. Because there's so. Cause when I was like looking things up, I was like, there have been so many actors that have played athletes in one form or another. And yeah, some of them, you're like, they're just wearing a uniform and they're not doing anything beyond that. Right, right. And then, you know, you've got certain other actors that are actually like on the field and like, maybe, you know, if they're playing baseball, they're batting or they're doing something like I think of stuff like major league or whatever. So is what would be like the next tier down? Like, what are there some like, you know, maybe not inherent to the, you know, like the Costner or Burt Reynolds model, but like good enough.

[Craig Calcatera]

The, the next tier down, I'll. I'm going to split the next tier into two separate categories.

[Millie De Chirico]

Fair, fair.

[Craig Calcatera]

The first one are sort of one offs, pure actors, no athletic background to speak of, who just sort of nailed it. And maybe they didn't do a lot of it, but they nailed it. And one is De Niro and Raging Bull.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yes, sure.

[Craig Calcatera]

Which, I mean, he's De Niro. That's what he did, right? That's what he does. He was just so convincing as a boxer. And I know, you know, Jake LaMotta was full of crap, but you know, he even said by the time that Movie was done filming. He look like a credible middleweight, like he could have boxed. And that's, you know, being a method actor, becoming a. Becoming a boxer, maybe that works. But he looked great, and he's never done anything that else that makes you think, oh, he could be an athlete. And then the other one is Charlie Sheen in Major League.

[Casey O'Brien]

Charlie Sheen, Wild Thing.

[Craig Calcatera]

Yes, Wild thing. You know, I. I'm sure he probably played, you know, high school baseball at, you know, Malibu High School, wherever the hell he went, but he looked like a pitcher.

[Casey O'Brien]

He.

[Craig Calcatera]

And not just a pitcher. He looked like a closer, which is a very specific, you know, brand of. Of pitcher for non sports fans out there. He's the guy that comes in in the ninth inning to lock it down at the end. Those guys have a whole thing about them. They're. They're half insane. They're very intense because they're coming in in very tight situations and stressful situations. They just carry themselves in a certain way. They look like they're about ready to die at all times, but they managed to get the job done. And Charlie Sheen in Major League, in addition to having a great windup, great form, if you believe the lore from the set, he was hitting, you know, in the 80s on his fastball, which is very good.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah.

[Craig Calcatera]

But he also nailed the whole composure and deportment part of it. He looked like he was probably about ready to have a nervous breakdown, but held it together. And that's exactly what a closer does.

[Casey O'Brien]

You know, something I notice in a lot of movie, sports movies, like the movement that is the most noticeable, that they're doing it wrong is throwing a baseball. For some reason that. That stands out. I see that in. I just watched the movie efis. Have you seen Ethos?

[Craig Calcatera]

I was gonna mention efis.

[Casey O'Brien]

Okay. Those guys, I just was like, you're not throwing the baseball right, a lot of these guys, but just so it just, it sticks out more than any other. You can't fake it as much.

[Craig Calcatera]

I feel like to go off on a bit of an EFIs tangent. Carson Lund, the writer and director of EFAs, came to my town, Columbus, Ohio, a few months ago for a screening. And. And I got to go to the screening, and I did a Q and A with him about the movie EFIs and beers with him. Great guy. And the big question I had was, how did you find these guys? And were they actually good baseball players? How much of this was magic? And he said, they, you know, they put out the ad or the notice or whatever. For guys who have some baseball experience. And a lot of them lied because that's what you do. But they looked the part. So he made it work.

[Casey O'Brien]

Sure.

[Craig Calcatera]

And the throwing was the hardest thing. Guys can kind of pretend to hit. Running is not that hard. And then some of the guys were supposed to be, you know, 55 year old, out of shape dudes who did a very good job of doing that. But the throwing was the hardest part. And you know, you got to be a little, you got to be a little careful with that.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Craig Calcatera]

And not to skip around too much, but that, that gives me the absolute worst athlete actor in any movie I've ever seen. And I think he's, so far, he's farther ahead of the bad ones than Kevin Costner and Burt Reynolds are ahead of the good ones. And I'm talking about Freddie Prinze Jr. In the movie Summer Catch.

[Casey O'Brien]

Wow.

[Millie De Chirico]

We just talked about him recently.

[Casey O'Brien]

We just talked about him Summer.

[Craig Calcatera]

Summer Catch. You know, it's supposed to take place on the Cape Cod League, which is where sort of elite college level players play in the summer as they're trying to up their draft stock. So if you're playing on the Cape Cod League, you're pretty good. And Freddie Prinze Jr. Looks like he saw baseball for the first time. When he got to the set, he has this weird hitch in his throw that looks like he's kind of throwing a Frisbee or kind of throwing a football, but like at an amusement park to try to get like a prize, not like he's an athlete. And you could watch that movie and know nothing about the production of it and know that the director wanted to kill himself every single day. And the editor, whoever edited that movie needs just a special Oscar for how many cuts in one throwing motion you could do to make it look credible. He is the absolute worst throwing a baseball, which a lot of us do when we're a little kid. I don't know what happened to Freddie Prinze Jr. Though.

[Casey O'Brien]

That's fascinating. And we, you know, Millie and I are, I would say we're fans of Freddie Prinze Jr. So it's, it's, it's hard for us to hear this.

[Millie De Chirico]

But you know, listen, he could be really good, you know, communicating his sadness in she's all that, but also be bad at throwing a baseball. So.

[Craig Calcatera]

And he's actually okay in the rest of that movie is, you know, the rom com elements and whatever the hell else is going on in that movie. He, you know, he's, he's credible. He just, you know, they can't have any baseball. They should have said it in like a ping pong setting or something like that. I don't know.

[Millie De Chirico]

Oh, I have. I completely. Matthew Lillard is in this movie too. This is. Oh, yeah, this is. Oh, Casey. This is a 2001 classic.

[Casey O'Brien]

We got a rot in my wheelhouse.

[Millie De Chirico]

We got a lot early 2000s.

[Craig Calcatera]

Jessica Biel.

[Casey O'Brien]

I just want to say. Yeah, Jessica Biel's in it. I just want to say, back to the EFIS point. I loved EFIs and that didn't like. I actually thought it worked for that movie because they are a bunch of like and schlubs. And so that was fine. But I did just notice the throwing motion was off in that movie.

[Craig Calcatera]

Yeah. And Carson Lund said that that was hard to get around, but it ultimately worked. And I think he's right. I think it totally worked. Because what that movie was trying to communicate. Totally. So if you went into that movie and I know a lot of people in the sports Internet space, whenever a sports movie comes out, everybody wants to talk about it. And there are some people that are just sort of dogmatic about it wasn't believable because that guy. You can't do that with a fis.

[Casey O'Brien]

Don't.

[Craig Calcatera]

In fact, it defeats the purpose of ethos.

[Millie De Chirico]

You know what I was thinking? Because, you know, I was like coming up with some. Some choices. I was thinking, like, who are like my favorite actors now, this is probably. I don't know how faithful this is to your area of expertise, but it's certainly like my favorite. I think he's probably my favorite actor playing an athlete in any movie. And that's Paul Newman and Slap Shot.

[Craig Calcatera]

Oh, yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

You took mine. Millie.

[Millie De Chirico]

Did I really?

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah. I love Paul. I love Paul Newman and Slapshot. I love Slap Shot.

[Craig Calcatera]

He's. Well, partially. He just nails even more so than Costner. The whole athlete at the end of the line attitude. And, you know, he's Paul Newman. So of course he's going to handle the acting piece of that better than Costner is, I think, even though Costner is okay, but he's a credible skater. You know, he was pretty credible with that. Now he does get outclassed because one of the guys I mentioned I wrote down earlier that I wanted to bring up is one of his co stars in that movie, Michael on Keane.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yes, he.

[Craig Calcatera]

He, you know, most people might know him as he was the sheriff on Twin Peaks.

[Casey O'Brien]

Sheriff.

[Craig Calcatera]

But he was. He was in Slap Shot is like he played Ned Braden, who is, like, the young prospect or whatever, he's almost a bit of a cheap, too, because he's. He's from Canada, and he grew up playing youth hockey, and he got a scholarship to play hockey at, like, University of New Hampshire or somewhere like that. And he looks amazing. He might be one of the best athletes I've seen. Who's an actor in a movie. He skate. There's this thing in hockey about skating with your head up. And anybody who learns how to play hockey, when you're young, the biggest thing is you're looking down at the puck. You're looking down where your skates are going. You got to learn to skate with your head up and just let everything go. Otherwise, he just does that perfectly. And it's. It's notable because there are a couple pros or a couple ringers in that movie who are also doing it, but whenever the actor types, and even Paul Newman has his head down quite a bit. So Ankin just totally nails it.

[Millie De Chirico]

Well, I mean, I would be remiss if I didn't mention maybe my favorite hockey movie of all time, which is the Cutting Edge starring DB Sweeney.

[Casey O'Brien]

I can't remember how DB Looked out on the rink. How much of a good.

[Millie De Chirico]

I think it's pretty good.

[Craig Calcatera]

I mean, I think that one. So I don't know. Am I missing out on.

[Casey O'Brien]

Oh, gotta see it. It's one of Millie's favorites.

[Millie De Chirico]

Oh, it's. Yeah, it's definitely a fave. I now she, you know, Mora Kelly is, you know, the. The romantic lead in that movie with him. I am not sure if she was skating all the time. It was a little hard to tell, but it felt like he was skating. Like, when they were doing shots of him, like, it seemed like he was on skates, moving around. Like it. He had, you know, full autonomy. I'm not sure if that was her, but I don't know. I could be wrong. It's been a minute since I've seen.

[Craig Calcatera]

It, but better than Talia Shire and Rocky, is what you're saying.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yes, definitely. Definitely. Well, okay, let me ask you this. I'm gonna throw a curveball. No pun intended. What about.

[Casey O'Brien]

I think we can intend the pun.

[Millie De Chirico]

Okay, let's intend it this time. Can we intend it? All right. You're the producer.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yes.

[Millie De Chirico]

You're gonna make a note of it. What about the inverse? Is there an athlete who is an incredible actor?

[Craig Calcatera]

The first answer I would give for a yes on that I don't think counts, but I gotta mention him anyway. Is Kurt Russell, because Kurt Russell was an actor first, obviously he was a Disney child actor and whatever, but he also, he was a baseball player and he played fairly high level minor league baseball for the team his dad owned, the Portland team back in the late 70s, I think it was Portland Mavericks. There was a documentary about them a few years ago that was really, really good. But Kurt Russell was a very credible player for them. I don't think he counts, though, because he was an actor first and he was obviously going to go back to that. The category that dominates that are wrestlers, and a lot of that is because they're showman anyway. You know, if you're a baseball player, you're not trying to play to the crowd necessarily, but wrestlers have to, and they do a great job. So, you know, Dwayne the Rock Johnson's a great example. Dave Bautista has done a really good job. Roddy Piper might be my favorite because they Live is one of my, like top five movies of all time. So those.

[Casey O'Brien]

John Cena is really funny.

[Craig Calcatera]

He's gotten really good, especially, I mean, tv. But him playing that peacemaker. Yeah, peacemaker. He's, he's really good in that. Really. His timing is great. A couple others are football players. Terry Crews is good. Terry Crews played in the NFL for a while. Carl Weathers. Carl Weathers is great because he was an NFL player. He played for the Oakland Raiders for about a year in the early 70s. And then obviously everybody knows him as Apollo Creed, but he was an amazing boxer in that. So not only could he act and he played the, the sort of Muhammad Ali stand in that was Apollo Creed and did a very convincing job of it, but he looked the part as a boxer too, even though that wasn't his sport. So he's very underrated as far as that goes.

[Millie De Chirico]

Well, that's, it's, it's interesting you mentioned this because, you know, my day job, I'm a film programmer and I did a. I just recently did a stunt, as we call them, which is basically like a night or several days worth of, you know, themed programming or whatever. And it was basically to celebrate the beginning of the NFL season. And I program a channel that is primarily blaxploitation, and there's a lot of blaxploitation stars that were former NFL players. And so you've got like Fred Williamson and Jim Brown and Bubba Smith and Carl Weathers and Bernie Kase. I mean, you obviously have OJ which we won't mention, but it's. Yeah, but it's, it's really interesting because. And there's actually this movie called the Black Six, which, which I feel like came out in the early 70s, but it was the entire cast. It's like a black biker gang movie. And all of the actors are football players. And I felt like there was this weird pipeline from football player to blacksportation actor happening in Hollywood at some point in the 70s, certainly.

[Craig Calcatera]

Yeah. Guys that played football in the late 60s, early 70s, it was just this huge pipeline. And part of it is they're big, so they looked intimidating. And a lot of those are action movies or crime movies or whatever. But there's something about the charisma of that era of football players. And, you know, you mentioned Bubba Smith, but there are also, you know, a couple white players, Terry Bradshaw and Merlin Olson and Alex Karras. Yeah, I had him written down all about the same age. All coming into movies in the 70s at some point. And it fed into that whole, you know, the whole North Dallas 40 and all that kind of like it was sort of the last years of the NFL being the Wild west with outlaws and crazy people and whatever was drawing people to football in the 60s and into the early 70s, I think lent itself very well to big personalities in acting.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah, it is. I wrote this down. I was. Why are there so many NFL players that end up actors? It seems more than any other sport, football players end up having somewhat successful acting careers. And it is sort of odd because their faces are hidden in the sport itself, unlike other sports, but yet they find their way to the. To movies. I don't know.

[Craig Calcatera]

It's sort of interesting not to go to armchair psychiatrist with it, but I think that you need a certain level of ego and confidence in football that you don't necessarily need in the other sports. Because someone is going to hit you hard all the time.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Craig Calcatera]

And if you don't think I'm going to hit them harder or I'm going to persevere, you're not going to last long in football. Whereas baseball has just kind of a bunch of boring dudes. Frankly. They're. It's a. It's a full of normies all the time. But in football you don't make it to the highest levels if you don't have a certain confidence. That probably translates pretty well to acting.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah, yeah. You know what I was thinking? Because obviously I feel like we can make the correlation that, you know, wrestlers and football players turned actors primarily go into the action movie genre. Right. Wouldn't you say? So I was trying to think of like, maybe an athlete that would appear in something like a rom com or something. And the only one I could really think of, and I don't, you know, this is again, is probably like Jason Lee, who was a skateboarder. Right.

[Casey O'Brien]

I have an answer for this, too.

[Millie De Chirico]

Oh, well, go ahead, tell me more.

[Casey O'Brien]

So there's an actor, his name is Nnamdi Asamuga. Asamuga. And he was a really good football player. He was like a shutdown corner in the league. And he's 44 now, but he is like, primarily, he was in a movie called Sylvie's Love. That's like a romantic movie. He's the lead in it with Tessa Thompson. So he's not like, super well known, but he's a successful actor right now who's in, like, more thoughtful movies as an actor. And he was like a really good football player.

[Millie De Chirico]

Does he play a football player in the movie or is he play.

[Casey O'Brien]

No, no, no, he doesn't.

[Millie De Chirico]

Wow.

[Casey O'Brien]

No, he's like. He's. He's like graduated to, like, actual movies.

[Millie De Chirico]

Wow, Fascinating.

[Casey O'Brien]

So that's pretty good.

[Craig Calcatera]

Yeah. Because you usually see the tough guy, and if you do see somebody in a non tough guy, non action thing, they're often playing themselves or versions of themselves. Like, you know, LeBron James was in train wreck, but he was playing LeBron James. And the whole point of his being there was, hey, it's LeBron James.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm like. I was, like, kind of pressed to find somebody. I was like, well, Jason Lee. I mean, you know, skateboarding is a sport.

[Casey O'Brien]

He's good.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah, he's good.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Millie De Chirico]

But also, you know, then you've got the Arnolds of the world, if, you know, basically starting out in action and then eventually making his way to Kindergarten Cop and things of that nature. But I don't know, this is such a fascinating subject because it's. It does feel like. I don't know, I mean, do you think that there are. I think we were talking about this with Josh Fatum a while back about the sort of the new scene of movies. Like who? Like who besides wrestlers? Do you see any of this, you know, these athletes who are still acting in that way, that maybe they were doing it in like the 70s and 80s, perhaps, or like even in the 90s with the martial arts, like the Jackie Chan movies and, you know, oh, my God, I'm planking on his fucking name. Oh, Jean Claude Van Damme or something.

[Craig Calcatera]

Oh, yeah.

[Millie De Chirico]

Who. Do you. Do you see anybody now who is kind of in both worlds, like an athlete? That's acting and does a pretty good job or, you know, I'm not seeing a lot.

[Craig Calcatera]

Part of it is just the way the business of sports works. And the. All the athletes now are so very well media trained and they're. They're told and taught to not say anything controversial ever. The personality is kind of drained out of them by design. So you don't get headlines, bad headlines about you or something. And so that, I think, sort of mitigates against those personalities coming through to the extent there should be some, or could be some NBA players who are sort of at the end of their career right now. Because in the NBA, that whole switch to let's be boring only really started about three or four years ago and there was this whole generation of NBA players. I'm thinking of guys like Kevin Durant. I have no idea if he has any skills. I don't have any idea if he wants to act, but just based on his, you know, his social media presence and the sort of interviews he gives and stuff, there's a whole bunch of NBA players who probably would be amazing, whether it's comedy roles or, you know, whether it's the guy in the chair, you know, in an action movie or something, that would just be great because they're quick and they're funny as hell. And there's also that arrogance about it that the old football players probably had, that someone needs to tap into that maybe they just don't want to.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah, I listen, I think if Jimmy Butler wants to be an actor, he should. He's funny and, well, I gotta point.

[Casey O'Brien]

Out, Minnesota Timberwolves, my guy, Anthony Edwards, he did act in a movie with Adam Sandler and he was pretty. I mean, he played a basketball player, but he was very good and charismatic.

[Craig Calcatera]

And Kevin Garnett, to Kevin Garnett was.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yes, Kevin Garnett. Yeah. Uncut gems.

[Craig Calcatera]

Yeah, I'm sure he did a good job, but I'm never watching that movie again because the anxiety level.

[Millie De Chirico]

Oh, I'm with. I'm with you. I want one timer. Amazing. Well, listen, I. I mean, this has been amazing. Craig, I'm so glad that you were here to give your analysis on. On these athletes or these actors turned athletes and then athletes turn actors. I don't know. Casey, is there anything else you want to bring up before we.

[Casey O'Brien]

No, this is great. I feel like I could keep riffing on this forever, but this was so fantastic. And it was. Yeah. So great meeting you and getting to talk to you about this stuff, Craig.

[Craig Calcatera]

Well, thank you so much. For having me. This was a lot of fun.

[Casey O'Brien]

Is there anything you want to plug that we haven't plugged already?

[Craig Calcatera]

Nah, just a cup of coffee. News every day. I'm not going anywhere.

[Millie De Chirico]

Cool. And so where. So basically, if you just type in cup of coffee, you'll find the subscription options and everything.

[Craig Calcatera]

Yeah. The website is cupofcoffeenews.com or if you just search cup of coffee, I'm there.

[Millie De Chirico]

Cool.

[Casey O'Brien]

Fabulous.

[Millie De Chirico]

Craig, thanks again. You're amazing, and we'd love to have you back sometime. So thanks again.

[Craig Calcatera]

Thank you.

[Casey O'Brien]

All right, everybody, that was great talking to Craig. Love Craig.

[Millie De Chirico]

Love Craig.

[Casey O'Brien]

Love baseball. Love the conversation. I love that topic. It was great.

[Millie De Chirico]

He's like.

[Casey O'Brien]

It's great meeting him.

[Millie De Chirico]

He's like one of these people that I love that loves, loves, loves sports, but also loves, loves, loves movies and music.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Millie De Chirico]

So that's great.

[Casey O'Brien]

I feel like you and I are like that, Millie. We like sports, but we like movies and music too. I feel like that's a special type of person because I hate when people. I don't know if you ever encountered this. I encountered this in film school and I don't know in improv groups where it'd be like, oh, who. Who's watching the sports ball tonight? Or that kind of bullshit, you know?

[Millie De Chirico]

Of course. Of course.

[Casey O'Brien]

I hate these people.

[Millie De Chirico]

I know so many people like that. I know people like, I grew up in the 90s. Of course, if you liked art, you didn't like sports. Never. The two shall meet. But you know what? That's changing. And actually, I think it's probably over correcting because there are certain people. I'm just gonna dangle this out there that are sports people that try to go too hard in the paint to use a sports metaphor when it comes to art. And they're not shooting very well, if you know what I'm saying.

[Casey O'Brien]

Interesting. Do you mean people who are, like, into sports but think they know a lot about art?

[Millie De Chirico]

Correct. You can know both things, but also, don't forget what you know more.

[Casey O'Brien]

Okay, Millie, what do you have for us for employees picks?

[Millie De Chirico]

Okie dokie. So I was like, let's just go straight down the line. Let's do another music documentary. My favorite music documentary. It's actually more of a performance. Like, it's more of a concert, but then it has, like, wraparounds of documentary stuff. Happening is a little documentary called Depeche Mode 101 that was made in 1989 by DA Pete Baker. And this is so good, dude. I rewatch it probably every year.

[Casey O'Brien]

Whoa.

[Millie De Chirico]

I will tell you with authority that if you go to the desert and do mushrooms and watch it, it will be a fantastic experience. But Depeche Mode is one of my favorite bands of all time. And, like, this era of Depeche Mode is my favorite era, is sort of like their late 80s, early 90s music for the Masses Violator. Like, when they're wearing, like, leather pants, but then cowboy hats and, like, leather jackets. It's almost kind of like electronic music by way of, like, they figured out what rockabilly is and went to Sun Records for a day and did a tour.

[Casey O'Brien]

Is this, like, personal Jesus?

[Millie De Chirico]

Correct.

[Casey O'Brien]

Era?

[Millie De Chirico]

Correct. So it's basically like. So the documentary focuses on the tour that they did for Music for the Masses, which is their album that came out in the late 80s. And I. I mean, between Music for the Masses and Violator Dog, I mean, I just was like. It was like Music for the masses 101, which is basically the live album from the concert. And then Violator, I'm just like, peak to Pesh mode for me. Peak to Pesh Mode. And they're like my favorite boy band of all time. Honestly, they're so good. But anyway, this documentary is really interesting because they did the show at the Rose bowl, but then there's also this, like, section where basically they took, like, a group of fans and put them on a tour bus and they kind of, like, toured with the band.

[Casey O'Brien]

Interesting.

[Millie De Chirico]

So it's all these, like, kind of cool, like, people in their 20s that are, like, dancing at the shows and they're kind of, like, on a tour bus, like, hanging out together while they're on tour with Depeche Mode. It was kind of fun, and it looks amazing. And also, just to tie it back to, I suppose, Brian Jonestown Massacre, Dave Kahan from Depeche Mode successfully kicked his own heroin addiction and became even hotter, which is an incredible story.

[Casey O'Brien]

So very good. You know, we've been talking about selling out and indie music and, you know, capitalism. And there's no band that sold out less than Fugazi, which is a punk band from Washington, D.C. that started in the late 80s and went through the early 2000s. They're on, like, an indefinite hiatus, but there is a documentary about them by the great filmmaker Jim Cohen. It's called instrument from 1999. It's a lot of concert footage. It's kind of an impressionistic style documentary where it's like. It just sort of weaves in between concert footage and then the band and it's A vibe. And it would be a great movie to put on at a party just. Cause it looks great and it just sort of flows between, you know, interviews and footage. It's not very structured and. But it's really interesting. And there's like a lot of great concert performances, a lot of great performances of Fugazi on the road. You know, they were. They were road dogs. They toured all the time. The ticket prices were like never. They were all ages shows never above five bucks. And they really did it, you know, and they were like really well organized and you know, they're straight edge. So they never drank or did any drugs. And maybe that's why they were able to be so disciplined. But it's a great documentary and I love Fugazi and I put it on all the time just to like watch a few minutes of it because it's wonderful.

[Millie De Chirico]

So that's great.

[Casey O'Brien]

Check out instrument. It's on the Criterion Channel right now, actually.

[Millie De Chirico]

Oh, is it? Oh yeah, because they have that. Isn't there like a music documentary theme?

[Casey O'Brien]

No, there might be, yeah. They have like more movies of Jim Cohen too.

[Millie De Chirico]

Oh, I see, I see, I see.

[Casey O'Brien]

So yeah, check it out.

[Millie De Chirico]

Great recommendation. My fellow employee.

[Casey O'Brien]

Have you seen Instrument Hell?

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah. Dude, Are you kidding me? What? Are you kidding me? You know what's interesting that we're gonna, you know. You know what's interesting that we have not brought up is there's actually a lot of music documentaries.

[Casey O'Brien]

We didn't touch upon that at all.

[Millie De Chirico]

I know there's a lot, A lot of my favorite bands, there's a documentary about them. I always find music documentaries fascinating. Even if they're terrible.

[Casey O'Brien]

I'm always like, they can be really bad. But they're interesting and I find them sort of relaxing.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah, I mean, I. I was trying to go back to think of what some of my favorite ones are. I was like, dude, I have like too many to count. Like, I love the documentary about Big Star. I love the documentary about Morphine. You know, I love the documentary about Benjamin Smoke which we talked about. Like, I think that's a Jim Cohen documentary. Actually. So many good docs about. About even like really, really small bands that I never thought I'd ever find anything out about. So yeah, I don't know. Kind of spoiled for choice and like. Like you. I think they're all entertaining if. Even if they're terrible. So. Well, hopefully one day I'll get the Casey o' Brien gripes and grits doc Graps and grits. People really loved that by the way.

[Casey O'Brien]

They did.

[Millie De Chirico]

Oh, yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

Glad to hear it. They loved I. They loved having my mom on too. That was. People seem to really enjoy having her.

[Millie De Chirico]

They're loving you, baby. They're loving you. Okay.

[Casey O'Brien]

You know. Yeah. Well, that's nice. That's nice to hear, Millie. That's our show. In the future, if you'd like to email us for film advice, a gripe or a grit, email [e-mail] youm can also send in a voicemail. Just record a voicemail on your phone that's under a minute and email it to dearmovies. Is that exactly right, media?

[Millie De Chirico]

Absolutely. 100%. Follow us on our socials, if you will. We are at Dear Movies, I love you on Facebook and Instagram. Our letterboxd handles are at Casey Lee o' Brien and at M. De Chirico.

[Casey O'Brien]

And listen to Dear movies, I love you on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts, please.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yes.

[Casey O'Brien]

And rate and review our show, please. Oh, positively preferred.

[Millie De Chirico]

Oh, oh, oh. Next week I just looked.

[Casey O'Brien]

We're watching the king of comedy from 1982.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah, we're gonna talk about. We kind of dangled this a little bit a few episodes ago when we.

[Casey O'Brien]

Were talking, we stumbled into it.

[Millie De Chirico]

Yeah. We were talking about Bona by Lino Broca. We're gonna do an episode about obsessed fan movies.

[Casey O'Brien]

Can't wait to get into it. You remember in Tenacious DTV show when they have an obsessed fan.

[Millie De Chirico]

Do I?

[Casey O'Brien]

Total love knife material.

[Millie De Chirico]

Also, my favorite is. Is John C. Rally as Bigfoot.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah.

[Millie De Chirico]

And he comes to the show and he's like, tell him it was Bigfoot. No, you just tell him it was a fwend. And then he comes back and he.

[Casey O'Brien]

Actually, could you tell him Bigfoot? They might not know.

[Millie De Chirico]

He's like, thanks. See ya. That shit is a fucking genius.

[Casey O'Brien]

Anyways, Millie, thank you for taking a trip back to a different time in our lives. A different time in your life.

[Millie De Chirico]

Thanks. Thanks for letting me be that, like, annoying Captain Ed. Yes. That, like, stupid boomer dude. That's like, remember Woodstock? It was fucking incredible.

[Casey O'Brien]

You know what? Sometimes the past was fun. Is that a crime? I don't think so.

[Millie De Chirico]

No, it's not a crime.

[Casey O'Brien]

All right. See you later, Millie.

[Millie De Chirico]

All right. Bye bye.

[Casey O'Brien]

Bye bye.

[Millie De Chirico]

This has been an exactly right production. Hosted by me, Millie de Chirico, and produced by my co host, Casey o'. Brien.

[Casey O'Brien]

This episode was mixed by Tom Breifocel, our assistant, our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, our guest booker is Patrick Cotner, and our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

[Millie De Chirico]

Our incredible theme music is by the best band in the entire world, the Softies.

[Casey O'Brien]

Thank you to our executive producers, Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, Daniel Kramer and Millie de Cherico.

[Millie De Chirico]

We love you.

[Casey O'Brien]

Goodbye.

[Craig Calcatera]

Be kind, everyone.

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[Millie De Chirico]

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