Smoking in Movies & Le Samouraï (1967) featuring Bret Berg and Joe Ziemba

Summary

Dear Movies, I Love You - Episode Summary: Smoking in Movies & Le Samouraï (1967) featuring Brett Berg and Joe Ziemba

Release Date: May 13, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of "Dear Movies, I Love You", hosts Millie De Chirico and Casey O'Brien delve into the intricate relationship between smoking and cinema. Focusing on Jean-Pierre Melville's iconic 1967 film Le Samouraï, the duo explores how smoking serves as a powerful narrative and character-defining tool in filmmaking. Enhancing the discussion, esteemed guests Brett Berg and Joe Ziemba from the American Genre Film Archive (AGFA) share their insights on found footage and the preservation of genre films.

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Hosts' Personal Relationship with Smoking

Millie De Chirico's Journey

Millie opens up about her past as a smoker, reflecting on the allure and glamour that smoking once held for her.

"Full disclosure, I used to be a smoker. Full disclosure, I fucking loved smoking. It was so fun, so glamorous."
[22:25] Millie De Chirico

She reminisces about her initial attraction to cigarettes, heavily influenced by cinematic portrayals:

"I feel like the glamour of smoking... you start to kind of see his image of just being a cigarette smoker, and it's just part of his ambiance or whatever."
[28:57] Millie De Chirico

Casey O'Brien's Experience

Casey shares his own history with smoking, highlighting the social aspects and the negative impacts it had on his well-being.

"No matter how cool it looks, no matter how cool and how delicious they taste... I say get those cigarettes. I out of here."
[02:27] Casey O'Brien

He also recounts a memorable incident involving cigarette deliveries that felt almost cinematic:

"I was like a mini vacation when you went outside to smoke a cigarette."
[24:46] Casey O'Brien

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The Cinematic Function of Smoking

The hosts discuss how smoking in films transcends mere habit portrayal, acting as a deliberate narrative device that conveys deep character insights.

"Cigarettes almost are kind of a narrative function in a movie because they would telegraph a lot of information about a character."
[28:57] Millie De Chirico

They highlight how smoking scenes often signify tension, camaraderie, or a momentary escape within a storyline:

"It's like a little vacation in the midst of all this turmoil, you know, it's like a moment of collection."
[29:53] Jevon

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Deep Dive into Le Samouraï (1967)

Overview of the Film

Le Samouraï, directed by Jean-Pierre Melville, centers on Jeff Costello (Alain Delon), a stoic hitman tasked with eliminating Marty, the owner of a popular club. The plot thickens as Costello navigates betrayals from both the police and his employers.

Hosts' Analysis

Millie and Casey dissect the protagonist's characterization, emphasizing how Alain Delon's alluring presence complicates his role as a cold-blooded assassin.

"Elan Delaon is like a catalog model angel wrapped in his trench coat. It's distracting in a sense."
[47:59] Millie De Chirico

They explore the paradox of Costello's attractiveness juxtaposed with his criminal profession, questioning how his looks influence his interactions and the audience's perception.

"He's so attractive that everyone would notice that he was doing well."
[50:13] Jevon

Moreover, the hosts touch upon the film's aesthetic choices, such as the long take of Costello smoking in his apartment, which sets a contemplative and isolated tone.

"The opening sequence... is just this long take of him laying on his bed with the bird chirping and him just smoking a cigarette."
[57:25] Millie De Chirico

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Conversation with Guests: Brett Berg and Joe Ziemba from AGFA

Introduction to AGFA

Brett Berg and Joe Ziemba introduce AGFA as a leading nonprofit genre film archive and distributor based in Austin, Texas. They discuss AGFA's mission to preserve and distribute rare and underground films, emphasizing their role in maintaining cinematic history.

"We became who we are now, which is basically like the world's probably the world's largest nonprofit genre film distributor and archive."
[77:48] Brett Berg

Found Footage and Curatorial Practices

The guests elaborate on their expertise in found footage, describing the challenges and excitement of curating and compiling rare video content.

"Compilations that you guys are like, sending out for or like seeking out what kind of like just for our listeners, like, what kind of footage is actually on these compilations?"
[66:33] Jevon

Casey O'Brien explains the artistic process behind creating mixtapes from archival footage, highlighting the balance between quality and audience engagement.

"The process is really just looking through stuff after stuff after stuff... trying to find the glimpses of footage where the spidey sense goes up."
[84:21] Casey O'Brien

Support and Community Engagement

Brett and Joe emphasize the importance of community support for AGFA, encouraging listeners to donate, attend screenings, and purchase releases to sustain their archival and distribution efforts.

"There are so many different ways you can support us. And it doesn't just have to be, you know, donate $20 today. It comes from audiences... telling us that you enjoy what we're doing."
[98:14] Brett Berg

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Employee Picks: Movie Recommendations

Millie's Recommendation: Out of the Past (1947)

Millie recommends Out of the Past, a classic American noir film starring Robert Mitchum. She praises the film's iconic smoking scenes and the character's portrayal.

"Everybody should watch it because the poster is like, all you need to know. Like, he's just smoking."
[101:01] Millie De Chirico

Casey's Recommendation: Coffee and Cigarettes (2003)

Casey selects Jim Jarmusch's Coffee and Cigarettes, an anthology film featuring conversations between characters over coffee and cigarettes. He admires its minimalist storytelling and character-driven narratives.

"It's just a bunch of conversations of people... it's a great movie and a huge inspiration to me."
[103:37] Jevon

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Closing Remarks

As the episode wraps up, Millie and Casey reflect on the enduring portrayal of smoking in cinema and tease the next episode's focus on Cold War-era film noir. They encourage listeners to support AGFA and stay tuned for more insightful discussions.

"The next week's episode is going to be about film noir, but specifically an era of film noir... Keanu Reeves so much because she claims that there's some Filipino ancestry in him."
[106:00] Millie De Chirico

"Well, that's our show. If you would like us to answer any questions you have, any film advice we can give you, please write to us."
[109:09] Jevon

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Millie De Chirico
  "Full disclosure, I used to be a smoker. Full disclosure, I fucking loved smoking."
  [22:25]

• Casey O'Brien
  "No matter how cool and how delicious they taste... I say get those cigarettes. I out of here."
  [02:27]

• Jevon
  "It's like a little vacation in the midst of all this turmoil."
  [29:53]

• Brett Berg
  "We became who we are now, which is basically like the world's probably the world's largest nonprofit genre film distributor and archive."
  [77:48]

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Final Thoughts

This episode artfully intertwines personal narratives with cinematic analysis, offering listeners a nuanced understanding of smoking's role in film. The addition of Brett Berg and Joe Ziemba enriches the conversation, providing a deeper dive into film archiving and the preservation of genre cinema. Whether you're a film enthusiast or a casual moviegoer, this episode delivers both engaging stories and insightful critique.

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Transcript

[Millie de Cherico]

This is exactly right.

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[Millie de Cherico]

Puff, puff, puff. Hey, Casey, how's it going?

[Jevon]

Hey, man, get that cigarette away from me. Hi Millie. It's going well. Yeah. I just want to start this episode at the top saying like, we are not promoting cigarette smoking because it's very bad for you and it will kill you, actually.

[Millie de Cherico]

No matter how cool it looks, no.

[Jevon]

Matter how cool and how delicious they taste. And you know, besides all that we get, we. We say no. I say get those cigarettes. I out of here. So. But how are you, Millie, besides. Besides you smoking a pack right in front, right on the zoom.

[Millie de Cherico]

What time is it? I'm. I'm ready through my first pack. No, I'm kidding. I. I'm great. I'm excited about this episode. I think clearly we're doing an entire episode on smoking in the movies and specifically a movie that was made in 1967 by maybe my favorite director of all time, Jean Pierre Melville. It's called Le Samarai.

[Jevon]

Amazing. Millie. You know, I was looking this up. You know, we're on a Zoom call right now, and I think we've joked in the past about how funny it would be to be, like, smoking in our, you know, our own Zoom calls and how, like, inappropriate that sort of feels. And I was looking up a Reddit post of this manager complaining about one of his staff he has Zoom meetings with, and she smokes during the Zoom calls. Like, smokes cigarettes during the Zoom calls. And he was like, it's totally unprofessional, but it is kind of like one of those things where it's like, yes, I guess that is sort of unprofessional. But like, 30, 40 years ago, people were doing. Were smoking in the office. So anyways, smoking in the doctor's office. He's smoking in the doctor's office. Yes. So a lot to think about with this episode. Very excited, like you said, talking about Le Samurai for this episode's my area of expertise. We're bringing in two smoking guests, Brett Berg and Josiemba of Agfa, to talk about found footage. What a fabulous conversation we have with them. I'm so excited for you guys to listen to that. It really got my juices flowing. Man, was I. I've been, like, thrilled after that talk with them. Oh, yeah, so. But lots happening on this episode, so please stay tuned.

[Millie de Cherico]

Puff, Puff.

[Jevon]

You're listening to Puff Puff. Me too.

[Millie de Cherico]

You're listening to Dear Movies, I love you. I love you. What are you gonna arrest me for loving movies? Dear Movies, I love you.

[Jevon]

And I've got to know if you love me too. Yes or no? Check the box.

[Millie de Cherico]

Okay, folks, you are listening to Dear Movies, I love you. We, like I said, we have this episode this week that's both. Both components. All components of this episode I feel like I have a personal stake in, because the topic smoking in the movies is obviously something that I have thought about for so long. I feel like there is so much to it that I'd like to talk about. And then, you know, obviously with our guests this week, old friends. So it's going to be a great episode.

[Jevon]

Absolutely.

[Millie de Cherico]

I have to say, too, by the way, I guess maybe relating to the intro. When I was in Japan a couple weeks ago, actually, it's probably like a month ago now, I went to a bar that smoked in the bar, and I felt like I was in, like, 1893, like, Yellowstone times. I was like, what the fuck is going on? It was very strange. It's very strange. Yeah.

[Jevon]

I feel like When I went to Europe, I feel like people. You couldn't even smoke inside in most of the places I went to there, you know?

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah.

[Jevon]

Yep. You are Millie de Chirico. I am Casey o' Brien. We are the host of this show. Dear Movies. I love you. We love smoking and. Millie, I just have a quick correction. I don't even know if it's a correction from last week. Last week, you asked me if I wanted to get a drink at the bar in Wild at Heart. Big Tuna, I believe it was called.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yes, yes.

[Jevon]

And you asked me if I wanted to get a drink with Bobby Peru, you know, the character played by Willem Dafoe. And I was trying to think of the line that he said. And so I feel like I was really kind of thrown off by you bringing up Bobby Peru. But I just. So I just wanted to say at the top of this episode, the line I was trying to think of was, those are dummies, dummy.

[Millie de Cherico]

The teeth. I could see the teeth when you said that.

[Jevon]

Millie, we start every show the same way by opening up the old film diary.

[Millie de Cherico]

Creee.

[Jevon]

Millie, would you please open your diary up and read to me some passages?

[Millie de Cherico]

I will, in fact. Okay, so mine's a little light and a little weird.

[Jevon]

Little light. Little weird.

[Millie de Cherico]

A little weird. What is not a. Well, one of the things that I've watched is not a movie. It's not even. I couldn't even tag it on my letterbox. Right.

[Jevon]

Oh.

[Millie de Cherico]

So I. I know I've been talking a lot about Japan lately because I just went on this, you know, restorative, wonderful birthday trip. Okay. But to be honest, I've been doing this since before I left, which is that I'm obsessed with nhk. Do you know what NHK is?

[Jevon]

I don't know what this is.

[Millie de Cherico]

NHK is essentially Japan's, like, public broadcasting.

[Jevon]

Oh.

[Millie de Cherico]

They have an app and a channel, I guess, a YouTube channel, where you can watch all their stuff for free for the most part. I was aware of them back when I used to work in public broadcasting for a very short period of time last year. And it was. We used to play their news because I think, like, most people might know NHK news, it will play on, like, PBS stations and stuff here in America. But they have this entire organization that makes all this amazing stuff. They have the best shit, dude. Like, they've got, like, shows about, like, you know, anything from, like, anime, you know, drawing to sumo wrestling. They have shows where they, like, go to people's work and see what they're eating. For lunch? I mean, come on. That's amazing. Don't you want to know that?

[Jevon]

I do.

[Millie de Cherico]

Well, they have this program that is. You can. Actually, there's a channel on YouTube where you can. They're all compiled. It's a playlist of cats hanging out in different places where it's just literally this like, beautiful, gentle asmre. Like, you know, it was like a National Geographic photographer guy who just like follows these like, cats that are just hanging out in neighborhoods. Like shop cats. Like, you know, cats that kind of roam the neighborhood and hang out and wander into stores. And cats that hang out at the beach. Like, I'm just like, this is fucking incredible. And they're just great. They list the name and the gender and the age of each cat and it's wonderful. You just like, wanna roof.

[Jevon]

It's intoxicating.

[Millie de Cherico]

It's intoxicating. So I've been watching a lot of the NHK cat stuff, actually.

[Jevon]

I wanna be so cool. You always know the cool stuff. I strive to be like you. I'm just like this dorky, white, virginal idiot and you just come in with the coolest stuff.

[Millie de Cherico]

Listen, part of why I'm interesting is because I was a fucking loser for most of my life. Don't you understand? That's what makes people interesting is that they're incredibly dorky and need things to get through the day. Including this show which is actually called A Cat's Eye View of Japan.

[Jevon]

And that's what it's good title.

[Millie de Cherico]

So that's what I've been watching. But then I have actually watched one film that I was able to log on a letterbox. And it was. I'll have to give you another little story about how I came across this shit, because it's also public broadcasting related. It was. I watched it on the PBS channel on YouTube and it's called We Want the Funk. It's a documentary that was made this year and it's all about the history of funk music. And the whole reason why I watched it is because I stumbled into this show with some friends of mine this past week where I went and saw a musician, an African musician named Ebo Taylor. And he's been around forever. He's from Ghana. He has made Afrobeat high life kind of African funk music. He's extremely famous. He's been sampled so many times and primarily by hip hop and R and B artists and stuff. And it was incredible. And I was like, really supercharged after I saw the show. And then I was like scrolling through YouTube. I was like riding the algorithm. And then I was like, oh, I want to see this documentary. Because I remember when it came on pbs and it was great. It was so interesting.

[Jevon]

That's fabulous. Yeah, that sounds great.

[Millie de Cherico]

They talked about your boy Prince from Minneapolis.

[Jevon]

My guy?

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah.

[Jevon]

Have you heard this Herbie Hancock quote that's been going around?

[Millie de Cherico]

No. What does that mean?

[Jevon]

So he was just interviewed.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah.

[Jevon]

And he's 84. And they were like, why haven't you come up with a. Why haven't we had a new album in 15 years? And he said, I keep getting caught in YouTube rabbit holes.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yes. That's my man right there. What the.

[Jevon]

He said, he goes, I'm victim to them.

[Millie de Cherico]

Oh, we are the same. This is the thing. Like YouTube TikTok. People don't understand why I love TikTok so much. I'm like, you just fall. You fall into it, and then you just ride the wave, and that's your life.

[Jevon]

This is what he said. I fall into rabbit holes on YouTube, a lot of them. New music, writing, software, things about health, tech things. I get victimized by it, so to speak. But that's life.

[Millie de Cherico]

But that's life. That's exactly right. Amazing. Well, that's.

[Jevon]

I'm sorry for that aside, anyways. That sounds amazing. I'll have to check that out.

[Brett Berg]

Yeah.

[Jevon]

Obviously, for Minnesota's greatest son, Prince. But that's great. Anything else?

[Millie de Cherico]

That's it. What about you?

[Jevon]

So I watched two movies this week. One I watched is 1984's Romancing the Stone by Robert Zemeckis. I've never seen this movie before. Do you have any appreciation or thoughts about this movie?

[Millie de Cherico]

Yes, I do. Of course.

[Jevon]

I thought it was really fun. I had a great time.

[Millie de Cherico]

It's a fun romp.

[Jevon]

It's like a romp. It's a romp.

[Millie de Cherico]

It's a romp. And, you know, it's kind of like, very 80s to me for two reasons. One, the kind of adventure comedy.

[Jevon]

Yep.

[Millie de Cherico]

Do they. Don't really do much of those anymore.

[Jevon]

Not like this. There was one with Channing Tatum and Sandra Bullock that came out, like, two years ago that was sort of a copy of Romancing the Stone. Like, she's like, literally an author. Like Kathleen Turner's character was in Romancing the Stone.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah. That was why I was thrilled about that, because I was like, oh, it feels like it's like a, you know, a reworking of Romancing the Stone. But that's the second thing that makes it really 80s, is that it's about.

[Jevon]

Publishing and I swear, 80s was obsessed with publishing. You're so right.

[Millie de Cherico]

I swear to God, if you were an adult in the 80s, especially if you lived in New York City, you worked in publishing.

[Jevon]

Well, this was. This is why I thought Whit Stillman's now this isn't an 80s movie. I guess it would be late 70s, but the last Days of Disco. I think both Clay Savign and Kate Beckinsale's characters were worked in publishing as well in that movie.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yes. What is that? Okay, what is the fuck. Now I've lost it. What's the John Carpenter movie about? The guy that writes the book in the mouth of. The mouth of. What's that guy's name?

[Jevon]

Sam Neill?

[Millie de Cherico]

No, the author that's in like the fake author. A Sutter Cane. Even though that is a 90s movie, I always think like that is exactly what an 80s movie is. Is like some Stephen King or like, you know, because 80s was so big into these big authors, you know. But that was like Romancing the Stone to me in a nutshell is like publishing big authors. Fake Sutter Cane folks.

[Jevon]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Yeah, I guess it the age of big, like kind of celebrity authors almost. So I feel like maybe the movies sort of reflect that.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah. Who was the big. I'm trying to think of these like big authors besides Stephen King. I guess it was like Tom Clancy, Jackie Collins, that was a huge member.

[Jevon]

Jackie Collins, like Michael Crichton, I feel like is another one. But yeah. Anyways, really liked Romancing the Stone. Really a fun. I just was like in the mood for fun. And I thought their. Their dynamic was really interesting. Like Michael Douglas and Kathleen Turner. It wasn't your typical dynamic. I thought he was going to be more like Indiana Jones, but he's more of like kind of an annoying twerp in the jungle. And she. And you think she's going to be kind of the damsel in distress, but she's not. And I really enjoyed it. I thought they were both great and had a good time with that.

[Millie de Cherico]

Will you see the sequel Jewel of the Nile feature?

[Jevon]

I heard that's not as good, but I'd watch it.

[Millie de Cherico]

Well, it features the song when the going Gets tough, the Tough Get Going by Billy Ocean.

[Jevon]

Okay, I'll also check it out.

[Millie de Cherico]

Maybe that's the only reason to watch it.

[Jevon]

Yeah, I know Kathleen Turner didn't have a good time on that sequel. So we'll see. And then I watched this other movie, which I think you'd really like. It came out in 2024. It stars June Squibb, and it's called Thelma. Have you seen this movie?

[Millie de Cherico]

No, I don't think so.

[Jevon]

It was incredible.

[Millie de Cherico]

Oh.

[Jevon]

Basically, June Squibb gets scammed out of money from, like, one of those phone calls where a person is impersonating her grandson. This is a very fun movie, very funny. And there's sort of this through line where she, like, loves Mission Impossible and is inspired by Tom Cruise. And so she's kind of decides to find the guy who scammed her. And she's like, 93 years old, and Parker Posey's in it, and this actor I really love, Fred Hechinger, who is in the first season of White Lotus, plays her grandson. And it's so sweet and so funny. And one of the huge stars of this movie is Richard Roundtree, AKA Shaft, who. This is his last movie. It is so incredibly sweet. I mean, I was, like, weeping because it was just so sweet and funny and just. Just a wonderful film. And so all four of my grandparents have died in the last five years. I was very lucky that they lived so long, but they all passed away in the last five years. And so I was just very touched by this movie and getting to see movies dealing, you know, dealing with getting older. And I liked that it was a movie about getting. Becoming, you know, old without it being like, oh, how terrible is this? You know, it's. It's a. It's a much more optimistic view of it, you know, and. I don't know. I was blown away. I think you'd really like it, Millie. It's really fun. It's really sweet.

[Millie de Cherico]

It sounds like it. Well, I love that it affected you. I'll watch it. Because you liked it so much.

[Jevon]

Yeah, I mean, it's just a fun, silly movie. And there's like, these kind of, like, I'll put quotes around them, action sequences with June Squibb that really made me laugh, and it's great. It was great.

[Millie de Cherico]

All right, let's close up this old. I'm smoking. I can't even lift it.

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[Joe Ziemba]

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Well, I've got a complicated project.

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I mean, I always thought I needed a designer to come to my home, but scheduling's always a Nightmare.

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[Millie de Cherico]

Hmm. I just might have to do more.

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[Millie de Cherico]

Okay then. So the first room we're looking at is for guests coming over. And I'm thinking of something. Blinds.com has covered over 25 million windows, all backed by a 100% satisfaction guarantee. Shopblinds.com now and get up to 50% off with minimum purchase rules and restrictions may apply.

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[Jevon]

All right, we're back and we are here for our main discussion, which is smoking in movies. And we're specifically going to kind of, you know, key in on le Samurai from 1967, which after watching it, there was less smoking in the movie than I remembered. But I think the reason I Wanted to talk about this movie was the first shot of the movie is like a long shot of him smoking a cigarette in his empty apartment. But anyways, Millie, you've mentioned, you know, you have a lot of thoughts about smoking in movies. When you see people smoking cigarettes in movies, how does that make you feel? And what's your relationship again? We're anti cigarette. But what is your relationship with cigarettes in your lifetime?

[Millie de Cherico]

Full disclosure, I used to be a smoker. Full disclosure, I fucking loved smoking. It was so fun, so glamorous. All these things they don't want you.

[Jevon]

To say, they don't want you to say it, but there's a reason it's addicting. Yeah, they're wonderful.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yes.

[Jevon]

I think, I think I can one.

[Millie de Cherico]

Aspect, I'd be lying if I said I didn't really love smoking. I really do. It was a great time in my life. I was young, I was into weird things. Everybody smoked back then. You know, that's the thing is that you realize that no one technically smokes anymore. Like there's, there's people who smoke. Don't get, don't get me wrong, it is a real.

[Jevon]

Even from like 10 years ago, I feel like people who, our smokers now are really put, you know, given the middle finger to society in a lot of ways now. Like you don't see smokers in the same way that you did even a couple years ago.

[Millie de Cherico]

I think there's a couple of reasons for that.

[Jevon]

Number one, they're dying off because cigarettes kill you.

[Millie de Cherico]

Well, but basically all the anti smoking stuff worked. I mean, essentially they figured out that the only way to get people to stop smoking is if you make the cigarettes $20 or whatever.

[Jevon]

Yeah.

[Millie de Cherico]

And it's like, oh, it worked. The only people that I see smoking these days, by the way, are old Asian guys. I don't know why. Actually, I think it's because if I'm not mistaken, at least the last time, not this past time I was in Japan, but the time before when I was in the Philippines, cigarettes were still cheap in Asia. So I was like, oh, maybe that's why they're still smoking.

[Jevon]

Yeah.

[Millie de Cherico]

You know, but I think the cost thing is what really made people quit. On top of that, I think more people just like vape and do that kind of stuff now. So like, even though I feel like we have had, there was a tiny little resurgence of people who were smoking cigarettes the old fashioned way. Like I was on TikTok and you're like, fuck your zins. Fuck your, like vapes your E6, like, let's go back to smoking, like, Marlboro Reds. And I was like, I actually gotta agree with that. Cause I, Yeah, I've never, I never. I quit long before the E cigarette thing happened. So I was like, thank God. Cause that looks to me. I just can't with that. But look.

[Jevon]

Yeah.

[Millie de Cherico]

You know.

[Jevon]

My experience with cigarette smoking. I was also a smoker for a period of time. It really heated up when I was working at a restaurant and unemployed, of course, and working in a restaurant. It was great because you. It was like going on a mini vacation when you went outside to smoke a cigarette. And it's more common in, like, restaurant work, I think, for people to go outside and. Yeah, smoke a cigarette. But also, I was, when I was, I was unemployed for like a year and a half, two years, and I lived with my friend Tom. Our main job. He was also unemployed, and his. Our job was cigarette smoking. We had a little patio, and he would bring home cartons of, of Parliament. And one time there was, like, little convenience store right across the street from our apartment where we would get our cartons, and they were out one day. And the owner of this convenience store knew us because we lived right across the street. And so I was in the living room on the second floor in our apartment. Was on the second floor, but we had like a patio. You know, what do you call that, A balcony that we would smoke on. Anyways, I'm talking to Tom. His back is to the balcony, so he can't see outside, but I can. I'm facing Tom so I can see outside that the owner of the convenience store is walking towards us, waving a carton of cigarettes in his hand. And I walk, I'm walking towards the balcony, and the owner throws the carton of cigarettes up to the second floor into my arms, and I catch it and. And from Tom's vantage point, a carton of cigarettes flew into our apartment. He had no idea that was happening, flew into our apartment, and I caught it, and I was like, yay. So that was a great memory.

[Millie de Cherico]

See, that's like a movie.

[Jevon]

And that's like a movie.

[Millie de Cherico]

It's like to. Our point of this entire episode is that there's something inherently cinematic about cigarettes.

[Jevon]

Yes. And I will also say this was the most. I was the most depressed during this time. Maybe one of the worst times of my life.

[Millie de Cherico]

Listen, don't even have to go there. I, I, I, I, I swear, I think cigarettes made me depressed.

[Jevon]

Yes, I'm sure they did as well. But like you said, there's something cinematic about smoking, partly because watching people smoke cigarettes indoors, I mean, it looks like we're looking into outer space, essentially. It's like seeing space aliens on screen because it's so unrecognizable from our reality.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah.

[Jevon]

You know, and so it's fun to see movies where, like, people in restaurants are, like, smoking inside. Because if you were in a restaurant now and someone started smoking a cigarette, I feel like the police would be called. Like, it would be so outrageous for that to happen. Yeah, that. So it is cinematic now because, like, it is so different from our reality, you know?

[Millie de Cherico]

Well, but even, like, back then. So, I mean, part of. I think the glamour of smoking and certainly the reason why I think I wanted to start smoking was because of the movies and especially older film. I mean, back in the day, everybody smoked. So when you watch older classic Hollywood films or, like, classic foreign films, everyone's smoking. Obviously, we're talking about, you know, Alain Delon in a movie from the late 60s, and he smoked in a ton of movies. So it's like. And so you start to kind of see his image of just being a cigarette smoker, and it's just part of his, like, ambiance or whatever. But, I mean, even back in the day when they used to actually have more smoking in movies, I feel like the cigarette almost is kind of a narrative function in a movie because it would telegraph a lot of information about a character. Like, for example, if a woman is smoking in a movie, a mysterious.

[Jevon]

Mysterious. Maybe bad news.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah, maybe bad news. A little bit of a bad girl. Like, what is she gonna do if she's sitting in a bar by herself? She can't just sit there and, like, look at her phone. There's no phones. Like, you gotta smoke a cigarette to know what to do when you're by yourself. If you're a lady by herself, God forbid, in the 1940s. But it's like another thing. Cigarettes, bond characters. I mean, there's like. You know, and I think they actually bond people generally. But, like, in movies, they do characters that smoke cigarettes outside together. I actually love this. This is a very subtle, like, thing that I notice a lot when you're in a movie and the movie is about someone who's either being interrogated in a police station or they're in jail and they are offered a cigarette, or they ask for a cigarette and they smoke either in the police station or the jail. Come on. Yeah, glamorous.

[Jevon]

Great. It's great. It's a little vacation in the Midst of all this turmoil, you know, it takes you to a different place. You know, it's a moment of collection.

[Millie de Cherico]

Right. But in that. In that story, if there's a cop that's trying to get somebody to confess and you offer them a cigarette, they're a little more likely to relax 100% after the cigarette. And that's what the. That's the narrative function of. It helps move the plot along. I'm just saying. Yeah.

[Jevon]

You know, there is a little bit of a. All right, I trust or like, I'll play ball a little bit. Like, if the. If the criminal accepts the cigarette, they'll be like, this is one step towards me telling you where the. Where I hid the jewels.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah. The diamonds.

[Jevon]

Exactly, the diamonds. Yeah. Sorry, what are you gonna say?

[Millie de Cherico]

No, I wanted to ask you a question.

[Jevon]

Please.

[Millie de Cherico]

Being that you used to be a smoker back in your depressed, sad boy era.

[Jevon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Millie de Cherico]

Do. Can you tell when you're watching a film and that person who is smoking a cigarette in a film actually smokes or has never smoked? Can you tell?

[Jevon]

Yeah, I absolutely can.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah.

[Jevon]

I can't think of an example really, but I can tell just the way they're kind of holding the cigarette. Like they're trying to be too cool and there's like maybe a strain of the hand or. Yeah, I can definitely tell. I don't know what the tells are of someone who is not a smoker in a movie, but I always can tell. It's like how I can always tell when a guy gets hair plugs. I can always tell.

[Millie de Cherico]

You can tell, huh?

[Jevon]

I can always tell.

[Millie de Cherico]

I would love to know that. Those. That information. So put in the chat and send it to me. Okay. For me, I feel like you're absolutely right. It's the way they hold the cigarette. A lot of times if you've never smoked and you have to smoke in a roll or something, like you're holding it real stiff.

[Jevon]

Like, stiff.

[Millie de Cherico]

Either the fingers are super straight or they're holding it with alternate fingers that you would never smoke a cigarette with. It's very strange. And then usually it's the inhale that gets me. Like, if you can, you can tell. Like a native cigarette smoker knows just how to bring it in and blow it out. Real easy breezy.

[Jevon]

Yes.

[Millie de Cherico]

But when you're, like pretending to smoke whatever. Whatever it is, onset cigarette, whatever. Whatever they are in the movies and you've never smoked before, I'm like, oh, you're inhaling weird. I don't even know if you know how to blow out cigarettes. This is, this is taking me out of it. I can't sit here and watch this.

[Jevon]

Yeah, I, I think one of the tells is, you know, when you smoke a cigarette you have to bring it into your mouth and then bring it into your lungs. It's like kind of like a two step process a little bit and, and then, but like you can tell when one person just brings it to their mouth and it kind of like, yep, plop. The smoke just sort of plops out of their mouth as they're talking.

[Millie de Cherico]

You know, Listen, I, I learned the hard way because when I, over the first like couple years that I smoked, I didn't inhale, I don't think. And was called out on it by this cool college guy when I was in Athens, Georgia. He was like, oh no, are you smoking? And I'm like, yes. And he's like, no, you're not, you're not even inhaling. And I was like, oh, devastated. I'm devastated.

[Jevon]

Yeah. Oh, the worst type of. That would be devastating if a cool college kid from Athens dr, Georgia called me out. Oh my God.

[Millie de Cherico]

This is why I'm interesting, Casey. I've had a lot of trauma in my life that I needed to.

[Jevon]

That, that, that is like the nightmare I would have going to out to a social event if a cool college kid called me out. Oh, to this day.

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[Millie de Cherico]

So before we get into the samurai, I wanted to ask you what do you. Were there any moments in cinema that you remember maybe pre smoking that kind of made you want to smoke or like encouraged you to keep smoking?

[Jevon]

Oh, that's a good question. I wonder if Mad Men had something because that was on when I was smoking. Maybe that was a, a motivator. You know, there's just like it's so casually done in 70s movies especially. Yeah, I think it was more like 70s movies like you know, Elaine May's Mikey and Nikki, you know. How about you?

[Millie de Cherico]

Well, a lot of things influenced me actually. I mean, besides, if you want to talk about like my favorite musicians and poets and writers and artists who smoked, just looking at a photograph of any famous person that existed from the 80s or before really influenced my smoking. I remember specifically, I think when I was in high school when I watched Reservoir Dogs for the first time and I saw Mr. Blonde smoking. Especially in the very beginning where he's in the office with Lawrence Tierney's character Joe and he just got out of jail and he like gets a cigarette and he inhales. He does the thing where you're like, oh, he's a real smoker. Cause he inhales the two step process and he talks while he exhales, which is extremely attractive, I must say. Like when somebody's like Seymour Skagnetti, that fuck or whatever he says, I just, I mean I was like, well now I gotta smoke because this guy's doing it so cool. But there's that movie. But there was also, like, Breathless. I mean, come on, Jean Luca's Breathless, which is.

[Jevon]

Yeah. I mean, the way John Paul Belmondo has these big lips and the way the cigarettes would just kind of like rest on his lips made me want to smell. Yeah, definitely.

[Millie de Cherico]

And then, of course, like, when I was in college, it was all about Wong Kar Wai movies. So Bridget Lynn and Chung King Express when she's at the bar, you know, basically smoking the entire movie. And then any. Literally anytime, Tony Long smokes.

[Jevon]

Tony Long. Oh. I mean, most attractive, especially in in the Mood for Love.

[Millie de Cherico]

Oh.

[Jevon]

I just feel like he's surrounded by cigarette smoke. You know, the thing about smoking in movies is you can't smell it. And when you smell a cigarette smoker now, even if they're not smoking, they fucking reek. And I think that's something you don't quite realize when you're smoking. No, that it's like, I smell like shit all the time.

[Millie de Cherico]

Oh, yeah.

[Jevon]

I am a public nuisance. Everyone hates me.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah.

[Jevon]

Like, it's incredible. You don't realize that stuff while it's happening.

[Millie de Cherico]

Oh, yeah. It's like when you are a smoker, you never know that you smell like cigarettes. You're like. And then you, like, literally, when you stop smoking and you're like, oh, my God, I smell like the casino in California Split or whatever. You're just like.

[Jevon]

Exactly. I smell like the carpet of a casino. Yeah, yeah.

[Millie de Cherico]

The Ramada Inn. That's been around since, like, the 1950s. I just want to point out a couple other of my favorite smoking scenes. Well, you obviously have legendary classic, like, smoking actors like Bogart, like James Dean. Right. I think an iconic smoking scene in classic film is now Voyager with Paul Henry and Bette Davis, where he lights two cigarettes in his mouth and gives her one, which I feel like has been replicated so often in films. And I. When I. You know when that scene in the Royal Tenenbaums where Margot Tenenbaum does that on the rooftop with Richie, I feel like we're all talking about now Voyager, because it was like, when you see that, you're like, holy shit, that's hot as hell. Like somebody lighting a cigarette for you in their mouth and then giving it to you. Come on.

[Jevon]

Yeah, I. You know, in the Royal Tenements, she smokes in the bathroom. And then, like, when. But she's hiding it all the time. Like, that's part of her character, is that she hides that she's a cigarette smoker. But I'm like, no one could really hide her cigarette smoker. And she's smoking in the bathroom and then someone knocks and she puts a cigarette out and like sprays a little perfume and they don't notice it. I'm like, it's the stankiest thing. Like, you stink. You can't hide it.

[Millie de Cherico]

As someone, as someone who tried to hide the fact that they smoked from their parents, I will tell you that it was unsuccessful. Like, you think you're, you think you got the grift going. You're like, oh, yeah, they can't catch me, baby, I'm so good. And then, no, later, much, much later in your adulthood, like, oh, we knew you were smoking because you stank like shit. Okay, So I have to say Royal Tenenbaums. But again, now Voyager, one of the sexiest scenes that features a cigarette is Dorothy Danridge and Harry Belafonte and Carmen Jones. It's that iconic scene where he is like, she's painting her toenails with cigarette hanging out of her mouth and he comes over. It's so sexy. I mean, come on. That's why cigarettes were made, right? I have, I would be remiss if I didn't mention Roy Scheider in pretty much every movie, but especially all that jazz.

[Jevon]

Yes. And Jaws.

[Millie de Cherico]

Jaws.

[Jevon]

He's got a lot of. Yes, he's got a lot of. He's, he's a good cigarette hanging out of the side of the mouth actor.

[Millie de Cherico]

He is our finest cigarette smoking actress for my money. I have to say. I feel like he's the best at it besides Bogart.

[Jevon]

ROY SHATTERS but he, he, he feels like he's a real smoker. Like he's like tan like leather by the smoke, you know?

[Millie de Cherico]

Oh, he absolutely smoked. Casey, what the fuck are you talking about? He looks like a cigarette. He looks like a cigarette.

[Jevon]

He, he visually looks like he is in smoking, like for his entire life. Since he was 12 years old.

[Millie de Cherico]

Since he was like 7 years old.

[Jevon]

Yeah.

[Millie de Cherico]

It's like when, speaking of Wild at Heart, when, when Nicholas Cage reveals he's been smoking since he was 4, I was like, oh, my God.

[Jevon]

Well, speaking of David lynch, cigarettes essentially killed David lynch, you know, and he was like a smoker to the end. And he had, I remember when he had, he had some, he said something about not directing anymore somewhat recently. And he was saying, like, I really loved cigarettes but they bit me, you know? Yeah. And he kind of resigned to the.

[Millie de Cherico]

Fact that he was gonna die of emphysema. Like he was kind of like, listen, I liked smoking too much, but this is the way it has to go, you know?

[Jevon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Millie de Cherico]

Which in a way, it's sad. It's sort of poetic, but it's also very sad.

[Jevon]

It is, it is.

[Millie de Cherico]

You know, But I will say so. Roy Scheider, Geraldine, Chaplin, and Remember My Name, of course, cigarette on the poster. But then you also have stuff like again, Sharon Stone and Basic Instinct and Bancroft in the Graduate. I love the cigarette smoking. And Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. Speaking of Tarantino.

[Jevon]

Yes. I mean, Leo is a great cigarette smoker in that movie.

[Millie de Cherico]

You know, he really.

[Jevon]

They're. Yes. Brad Pit, too.

[Millie de Cherico]

And they're obviously, to me, sort of imitating old actors, like the people that we're talking about who smoked since they were four. But then also Leo's iconic cigarette smoking in Django Unchained with the little. What do you call it? Little Tennessee Williams do the little.

[Jevon]

What do you call that thing? Extender. One of those cigarette. What is that like. Yeah, Cruella Deville has.

[Millie de Cherico]

It's like a. Yeah, Cruella Deville. Yeah. I call it the Tennessee Williams, Cruella Deville cigarette holder thing. But I mean, there's memes of him on the Internet smoking that. Smoking that cigarette through that thing.

[Jevon]

And I would say flappers would have those cigarette holders.

[Millie de Cherico]

Whatever. Exactly. And my last one is a small. Is a small one. I wanted to go a little bit indie, but there's a movie called Columbus that came out.

[Jevon]

Oh, with John Cho.

[Millie de Cherico]

With John Cho. There's a scene where John Cho is smoking a cigarette and he's got a notebook under his arm. And I was like, this is the hottest man I've ever seen in my life. So that's my. That's it.

[Jevon]

I want to see that movie. It looks good.

[Millie de Cherico]

Oh, it's fantastic. It's actually so much better. Better than you would think because it was a quietly released and you know, it was like an indie movie. But it's so good. It's so good.

[Jevon]

It has. But it gets brought up. I feel like it has people like that movie.

[Millie de Cherico]

So anyway, that's my history of.

[Jevon]

Thank you.

[Millie de Cherico]

Cigarettes.

[Jevon]

What a time. I mean, it's. There really isn't anything out there that's equivalent to it in terms of, like, the warning is like, hey, if you keep this will kill you.

[Millie de Cherico]

Sure.

[Jevon]

You know, there's like. Even alcohol is like, only drink this much per week. But there's no amount of cigarettes that are healthy. You know, it's sort of interesting.

[Millie de Cherico]

No, Well, I remember a dog. I will say this. When I was, like, 18 years old, I went to this. This doctor that was basically like an urgent care. Like a community urgent care doctor. And she told me when I was 18, back in the late 90s, that if you smoked one cigarette a day, you might be okay.

[Jevon]

Well, famously, Joan Didion was like, I will smoke five cigarettes a day. No more, no less.

[Millie de Cherico]

Whoa.

[Jevon]

And she did not die of lung cancer. Yeah, well, it didn't kill her. So we're not doctors. Maybe five, isn't it?

[Millie de Cherico]

And I don't think the doctor that told me that was a doctor. So just throwing that out there. Don't smoke.

[Jevon]

Yes. Joan Didion is not a doctor. This quack that Millie went to may or may not be a doctor. Millie. I'm gonna do this. I'm. Let's get into Le Samurai. I really feel like we could have talked. We could keep talking about cigarettes forever for another 24 hours, 24 hour marathon. Okay. So this movie, Le Samurai, it's directed by Jean Pierre Melville from 1967. It's about Jeff. Jeff Costello, played by Alain Delon, who is a stoic hitman and criminal in par. He's hired to kill Marty, the owner of a popular club called Marty's. He does, but he gets 100% caught by a jazz piano player, Valerie, played by Kathy Rosier. But when he is arrested and the police ask Kathy to identify him, she says it's not him. Why? I don't know. The police are after Jeff and so are the men who hired him to kill Marty. But what's our raincoat wearing hottie gonna do? That's Le Samurai.

[Millie de Cherico]

Fantastic.

[Jevon]

Did you think it was funny his name was Jeff?

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah, it was like hif almost jif.

[Jevon]

It reminds me of that pixie song Space where it's like, Jeffrey with one F. Jeffrey. Do you know that song?

[Millie de Cherico]

I do.

[Jevon]

Okay.

[Millie de Cherico]

But you did a fantastic job. Thank you. You sounded just like Frank Platt.

[Jevon]

Thank you. Now, you have a large cutout of a land alon in your room that you kiss before bed every night.

[Millie de Cherico]

Definitely.

[Jevon]

Do you feel like sometimes he's like, this comes up with other actors. He's, like, too attractive that it's jarring to have him in a scene. And his looks aren't commented on?

[Millie de Cherico]

Yes, I say that pretty much every day. I say that to the cutout when I'm kissing his mouth raw with, like, the paper around his mouth just, like, eaten away by saliva. Live up he. Like. This is the thing that I think is so interesting about Elenda Lawn is that he was obviously like playing a lot of bad guys. I mean, he was definitely in the Melville universe, but he was like French crime actors, kind of like a French noir actor. He was so hot. And you're like, he's almost distracted. It's almost distracting. I mean, I feel like American noir guys, like, just for an example, American noir guys were like, I guess functionally hot in the Hollywood way, but like, had some weirdness to them. Like, there was always kind of like a squirreliness, like maybe like a little scar, like a little weird pock mark or something. You know what I mean? There was like, something about them. They weren't totally. They were character actors. Right. That was like the thing about noir guys.

[Jevon]

I mean, think of, like, Humphrey Bogart. He, like, he's attractive, but you're like, he's kind of weird looking, you know.

[Millie de Cherico]

Or like, you know, Alan Ladd was short. Yeah, you. Robert Ryan had kind of a weird face. Like, he was kind of like, you know, he had those, like, weird, downtrodden face. I mean, Elenda Lon is basically like a catalog model angel wrapped in, like, in his trench coat. And I'm just like, I. It's distracting in a sense, because you're like, oh, he's supposed to pull off the greatest heist of all time, but he's so attractive that everyone would notice that he was doing well.

[Jevon]

That's what I was like. There's a huge part in this movie where they bring in all these people, people, and some of them are intentionally saying they don't recognize him because they wanted this Marty guy killed. But if you're asking witnesses, hey, did you see this guy in the restaurant? I feel like everyone would be like, oh, you mean the hottest human being on planet Earth? Yeah, I saw him. He was there. Like, he's so distracting that it made it kind of like, unbelievable as a storyline that people would be like, I'm not sure if I saw him, you know?

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah, that's the thing is that I talked about. I mean, I guess we could have technically done Le Cirque, Le Rouge for the podcast. Even though I did it on. I saw what you did, and I had a lot to say about it because there's actually an iconic smoking scene in that movie. But in that movie, also a Jean Pierre Melville movie also starring Alenda Lun, he's like, supposed to be like a cat burglar, and you're just like, absolutely not. Even if he was wearing a mask, he's got like the hottest body. Like, he's just too Hot to be a criminal. And I know that I say that. And knowing that there have been hot criminals in the past.

[Jevon]

Of course there have.

[Millie de Cherico]

But in the line of duty that he's in where he's supposed to be like, I mean, he's getting put into a police lineup with like 40, 50 dudes and he's clearly the hottest one out of all of them.

[Jevon]

Yes.

[Millie de Cherico]

You're like, there's no way.

[Jevon]

He's like taller, hotter, more fit. Like it's, it's, it's ridiculous.

[Millie de Cherico]

I. I swear. So I. It's been a while since I've seen the Samurai, but.

[Jevon]

Me too.

[Millie de Cherico]

It is one of my favorites. Sets up this premise that I love about all hitmen, which is a hitman ism. I'm going to call it a hitmanism. And it's when a hitman has to remove a bullet from his body or tend to his own wound in his apartment.

[Jevon]

Hell yeah. And they have the little kidney. They usually have a kidney bean shaped metal dish with which they plop the bullet into. That does not happen in this movie. But that is sort of one of the, you know, trademarks of that.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yes. And the apartments are invariably the most downtrodden, disgusting, skid row ass places, desolate. Yeah. Except he has a bird. He also has a bird, which plays heavily into the film. I feel like it's an allegory perhaps, but. Yeah, so he's like in this shitty little apartment with his bird and he's removing Civil War esque bandages from his arm and he's like, remove. Anyway, I love hitman isms like that.

[Jevon]

Yes. But this, this movie kind of is like a classic hitman movie where it's like he finishes the job but he's set up by the people who hired him.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yes.

[Jevon]

You know, and so that was fun for to see such an early version of that type of movie. With this movie, you know, it reminded me of. Did you see David Fincher's the killer from 2023 with Michael Fassbender?

[Millie de Cherico]

Oh, of course I did.

[Jevon]

Well, see, I feel like that is like sort of a. In some ways a modern le samurai. But see, in that there's a specific part where he's like, I need to blend in so I dress really bad. Like a German tourist.

[Millie de Cherico]

Right, right. Have we talked about this movie? I feel like we talked about this mov. Because that movie stands out to me because I. So speaking of hitman isms. Right.

[Jevon]

Yeah.

[Millie de Cherico]

Michael Fassbender in that movie is so weird and like listens to the Smiths, which I'm like, do hitmen listen to the Smiths? I'm not sure. I guess we'll see.

[Jevon]

He eats Egg McMuffins, but only the egg, meat and cheese. He does not eat the. He doesn't eat the English muffin part.

[Millie de Cherico]

Well, and like, the most notable to me is that, like, in the past, in old hitman movies, perhaps in old Jean Pierre Melville films, and especially in Italian crime films from, like, the 70s, everybody is drinking J and B Scotch.

[Jevon]

That's a classic. I feel like that shows up in a lot of genre movies.

[Millie de Cherico]

JB Scotch, definitely. You know, in these, like, European action films, crime films. So when I watched the Killer with Michael Fassbender, the David Fincher movie, I was like, this motherfucker's drinking Ensure. So is he. Are we saying that Ensure is the new hitman drink of choice? Like, they don't want to drink Scotch now. They just want protein shakes.

[Jevon]

No one has any style anymore. I bet Fassbender wasn't the killer in that movie. Wasn't smoking cigs.

[Millie de Cherico]

Oh, he was drinking. And sure, that's what my mom drinks, so she doesn't get osteoporosis, gnosis or whatever. It's crazy. They're crazy out here with the hitman isms. Anyway. I must say, good movie, though. I thought I actually liked it.

[Jevon]

I liked it. I like that movie. Yeah. Have you seen any of Alan Delon's English mov? The thing about him is he tried to come over to the US to make it as a big Hollywood dude because he was, like, this huge star in Europe, but he wanted to, you know, make it in Hollywood, but he claims his French accent stopped him from becoming a huge star. But have you seen any of his English language movies?

[Millie de Cherico]

I actually have not.

[Jevon]

I was just curious to see how those were. Like, that just shows you how those were not, I don't think, particularly well received when he.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah, he. It was no Yves Montauld. Right. Like, who's who? I think is like, one of the best examples of, like, a French actor that, like, had an accent but did American movies. A lot of English language movies. Yeah. I never saw it. Honestly, to me, there was a classic period of Alan Delon movies. And I feel like it is, like, a world in which I stay. I return to it constantly.

[Jevon]

Well, he had such a run.

[Millie de Cherico]

I mean, the cutout that I make out with every night behind me is from Rocko and His Brothers, which is, you know, one of the. He's a lot younger in that movie. Than in Le Samurai. And it's perfect. It's like a perfect film. And so I'm just like. I don't know. It's like, when it's good, you don't want to go too far. Like, I feel like he's got such good movies all in a row that I'm like, I love my little world. He's an icon of smoking because of these movies. Like, he's an icon of, like, French crime, cigarette smoking. Melville was a big part of that image, obviously. But also, I think that, like, generally, you can't get any better smoking than in, like, French crime films.

[Jevon]

Well, there's just so many. Like, there's so many. I feel like long takes long on just a person's face with, like, a cigarette in their lips and the smoke just wafting up like that is, like, part of the genre. And so it's very conducive to cigarette smoking. You know, like the opening sequence of this movie, it's just this long take of him laying on his bed with the damn bird chirping and him just smoking a cigarette. It's like five minutes long.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah. I mean, it's almost like the French were good at smoking.

[Jevon]

Yeah. Look at Jean Pierre Melville's run. Speaking of runs. 1967, Le Samurai. 1969, army of Shadows. Another one of his, another banger. And then 1970, Le Circle Rouge. That's like three or four years. What an incredible run.

[Millie de Cherico]

I mean, you don't even want to get me started on my favorite of his films, Leon Moran, Priest. Which is.

[Jevon]

Oh, yes.

[Millie de Cherico]

I think it's in the first slot on my letterboxd faves. Wow. It's maybe number one.

[Jevon]

It's definitely in the four, but I haven't seen it.

[Millie de Cherico]

Holy shit, Casey.

[Jevon]

Putting it on the list.

[Millie de Cherico]

Oh, my God.

[Jevon]

You will watch list.

[Millie de Cherico]

You will die. It's so good.

[Jevon]

I love priest movies. I love Diary of a Country Priest.

[Millie de Cherico]

You're gonna love this.

[Jevon]

First Reformed.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah. And you just watched Black Narcissus, so you're gonna totally go crazy because it's kind of conceptually the same thing.

[Jevon]

Cool.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah.

[Jevon]

Conclave. I want to see Conclave. I haven't seen Conclave.

[Millie de Cherico]

Oh, they've been pushing Conclave a lot because of the new priest. Or, I'm sorry, the new.

[Jevon]

The new priest.

[Millie de Cherico]

The old Pope. The new Pope.

[Jevon]

As of this time, there is no new Pope. We are in between papacies.

[Millie de Cherico]

Well, you know. You know who they got?

[Jevon]

There's a Filipino at the forefront. You think they don't know that?

[Millie de Cherico]

I've been gutted for this guy. Like, everybody. All the Filipinos I know are rallying behind this guy. Like, they're just basically like, we need our dude in there. We need our people in there. It's time.

[Jevon]

Yes, I agree. You know, it's funny. My wife is Filipino, and this is something that I think Minnesotans and Filipinos have in common. Anyone who is even slightly, slightly Filipino, they are. They are celebrated, heralded, and, you know, they love them. You know, even Rob Schneider, he's part Filipino. I know that.

[Millie de Cherico]

Okay, listen, when they fight, when they find out that, like, this happens a lot with sports players. If a sports player comes out as, like, half Filipino, forget it. You're part. You're part. That's why my mom loves Keanu Reeves so much, because she claims that there's some Filipino ancestry in.

[Jevon]

I've heard this too.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah.

[Jevon]

Yes, I have heard this too. The new lead singer of Journey. Filipino. But the same is with Minnesotans. If you have any sort of passing, like, if you're like, ma, a celebrity's mom was from Minnesota. I feel like we know about that. It's sort of a similar thing. So I, I, I related to Trisha on that. Yes, very immediately. Anyways, any other thoughts on Le Samurai, Millie?

[Millie de Cherico]

I don't know. Classic film. Everybody should watch it. It's on Criterion Channel. There's no danger of it going away because I think that it's a Janice title, so they own it.

[Jevon]

It's one of the classic film school. You gotta see this movie.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah.

[Jevon]

Movies.

[Millie de Cherico]

And if you don't know who Alan Delon is and you wanna just dive right into his hotness, you can't find a better movie than Le Samurai, as far as I'm concerned.

[Jevon]

So not about a samurai. Just know that going in.

[Millie de Cherico]

You know the quote at the beginning that is in every John Pierre Melville movie that sometimes is made up. He'll. He'll explain to you why he equates Samurais with Hitman. Do you know what I'm saying?

[Jevon]

Sure. Yeah. There's a connective tissue there.

[Millie de Cherico]

Sure. All right, so we have a couple of great guests for this week's my area of expertise, which is part of the show, where we bring on a guest to talk about their very specific niche area of film knowledge. And I have to say, I. I love these guys. I've known them for a very long time. We used to work together. I was technically on the board of the nonprofit that they work for, which is called the American Genre Film Archive, based out of Austin Texas. And they're programmers, they're musicians, they're writers, they just do a lot. They wear a lot of hats. They've presented a lot of films in their past and currently. And I just love them in pieces. And I'm glad that they're here to talk about their area of expertise. So please everybody welcome Brett Berg and Joe Ziemba from the American Genre Film Archive.

[Brett Berg]

Hi. We're so happy to be here.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah, longtime listener, first time caller.

[Millie de Cherico]

Well, I'm glad you guys are here because I think y' all are really perfect for the topic that we're gonna talk about today, which is very near and dear to my heart. And I was wondering if y' all wanted to set that up a bit. What do you hear? What is your area of expertise, guys?

[Casey O'Brien]

Well, Joe and I have had each had a long history bounding about the region of found footage. And this comes in various forms. This could be stuff you just watch on the Internet or it could be tapes passed around the underground that somehow made their way to us. I worked in a video store for many years in the aughts. Joe and I crossed paths like 12 years ago at Cinefamily, which is a now defunct movie theater here in Los Angeles. It's a multifaceted plane. And I don't mean to sound new agey or weird about it, but there's a lot of intersecting points between myself, Joe, and this medium.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah, well, okay. I want to set this up properly because I have a feeling that there are people out there who are maybe younger who maybe have never experienced the heartache of having to find things without YouTube or archive.org or just googling. So let's talk a little bit about that because I think we're roughly the same age, right. We kind of grew up in the same era of like home video television, kind of like pre Internet. Right. And I've certainly talked about this on, you know, on the podcast before about, you know, having to find like 8th generation dubs of movies back in the day. And, you know, not everything was obviously on home video or stream. There was no streaming. So it was just such a challenge to find stuff in that at some point the challenge was sort of the thrill, you know. And so I just wanted to get yalls opinion about what was like growing up in that era. Set it up for everybody who maybe doesn't understand what we're talking about.

[Casey O'Brien]

Oh, yeah. Well, I think to give it some context, we are all late Gen X and that kind of sets the scene. And I'm very burned on it because I was not Gen X growing up. I was born in 79, and so I was considered the next generation. But somewhere in the 2010s, all three of us got retroactively lumped into Gen X. Not happy about it, but oh, well.

[Millie de Cherico]

I kind of like it. But I also. I get what you mean. I get what you mean.

[Brett Berg]

There are worse things.

[Jevon]

There are, yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

So I guess we all grew up at a time without the Internet in the home necessarily, without cell phones. And we were the last generation, I think, to do so. I had cable television in the home. So I feel like I was as plugged in as possible, as plugged in as someone could be, you know, from that generation. But we're also the generation that had to send away for things through mail order if we really wanted them. Joe, I'm sure you did that a lot.

[Brett Berg]

Absolutely. That's my introduction to all of this, actually was. I remember reading about underground VHS tapes of compilations, like homemade compilations that people made. And then Film Threat had released a couple, I think, with like, really gross titles like Anal Cathode Tube something, you know, just like what? Like. And I was. I was fascinated by them, but I didn't want to watch them because I knew they would have stuff on it. At the time I was really young that I would like to, like, really disturbed me. So it was like the DVDR era is when I really got into it. Like revengeismydestiny.com and 5minutestolive.com when they actually had found footage pieces that you could buy on dvdr. And it was really electric because you had no idea what you're going to get. Some of them could be really horrible and boring and some were just like revelations. So it was like the feeling of sending away for something and not knowing exactly what you're going to get. It's hard to describe, but it's like. Like all part of the experience of doing it.

[Jevon]

And so these compilations that you guys are like, sending out for or like, seeking out what kind of like just for our listeners, like, what kind of footage is actually on these compilations? What are these, like, narrative stories, documentaries, home videos, or all of the above? Like, what exactly is the content of this type of, like, found footage that you. You're seeking out at this time?

[Millie de Cherico]

Time.

[Casey O'Brien]

Oh, boy. I mean, I would have to classify most of it as edgy things that could not be broadcast or were secreted away into the archives of whatever broadcast entity, never to be seen. I don't know, like random collisions of crap which is, I guess, the basis of YouTube. Sometimes they were, here's a compilation of all the best moments from Italian horror movies. Sometimes it was here's like bloopers or things that are just too hot for tv. Incredible commercials, the proto meme stuff. I guess the things that were really worthy in that world were of a proto meme, proto viral nature.

[Millie de Cherico]

I think that's actually key. I think this is exactly what we were doing is I think we were watching compilations of memes or, you know, viral videos. And, you know, it was just this thing where there were certain people that had. It almost felt like there were people who were just like home recording and they were recording things off of tv or they had, you know, somehow had an older brother that had footage of when like the Max Headroom guy broke into the TV station and took it over. You know, like these like, weird random moments that happened, like in either on TV or on video or something and made comps. And it would just be like one thing after another. And I mean, I think I started too, around that five Minutes to Live era, which was a mail order label really for a while. But, you know, I bought like all of the found footage stuff like back the day. Like, you know, I was just thinking about this the other day. I, you know, bought James Brown's Future Shock, which was this short lived, sort of Soul Train type of show that he had made in Atlanta actually in the 70s. And I mean, where would you be able to find that? Somebody dug it up, found it, put it on a VHS tape or like a DVDR and sold it through a website and it was that kind of stuff. And then I also remember stuff like TV Carnage and Everything is Terrible, which I think is kind of like the thing that more people know about now, which were kind of like compilations of television movies, like random stuff, like a lot of Christian television, like public broadcasting, which was so fun to watch. Like, if you just put it on at a party, everybody would sit around and watch it, right?

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah. Also, five Minutes to Live was Atlanta based. I think that guy who ran the labels were your first.

[Brett Berg]

I didn't realize that.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah, I think there's a little bit of drama there. I won't go into it because I don't know a lot about it, but I do believe that perhaps people are owed money or something. This is all I've heard. That's all I know. I'm not gonna go any further than that. But yeah, there was a lot of different players back then. And then also again to Joe's earlier point of this is something that I think is really interesting too about where you would find like these mail order catalogs. Because I remember seeing it in the back of like Fangoria and Rue Morgue and Film Threat and all these magazines. But then I also would see like, do I remember the Sessions catalog, which was kind of this like skater like mail order catalog that you would find in the middle of like alternative Press magazine. Do you remember Alternative Press magazine?

[Brett Berg]

Love that.

[Millie de Cherico]

And you could buy like, like skater clothes, skater ephemera, like fucking like, you know, weird alien neon signs for your bedroom clothes. But you could also buy records and you could also buy tapes. Like, you could buy like compilations of like weird concerts that happened and just kind of like viral, like what they would call kind of underground videos, which were just kind of like again, what we're talking about. And so it was always really embedded with kind of like anti mainstream culture, sort of like skater, punk, rock, heavy metal culture. It was all kind of part and party of all of this stuff, right?

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah, I mean it was. The reason why it's so interesting to talk about this now is that I think it's a hidden history. And just about everyone on the planet has forgotten what underground culture culture used to mean before the Internet and social media was a daily reality. Most content on earth was difficult to get. And a lot of folks were in a monoculture just all watching the same thing. Let's go back 30 years and talk about friends versus the punk underground. Most people were watching Friends in Seinfeld, but there's a small number of us who were not necessarily watching that. And instead reading magazines, going out to rock shows, talking to other people. That's the thing. A lot of what we're talking about doesn't happen without human contact and human interaction, which is increasingly rare these days. Yeah, you had to buy media. That was one big thing. You had to actually fork over money to purchase an item and you could maybe copy it for your friends or if it was a dvd, maybe at the time you didn't know how to copy it. So everything lived was trapped on this media that you had to physically hand off to someone in order for them to get. And this created an excitement, a tangible like culture, a subculture. And now it's funny that memes and viral things is overground. It is the culture. It's the way that people communicate with each other and relate to each other is through watching some guy take a golf club to the nuts on Fail Army. That's how we relate. Instead of going to Shows, I don't.

[Millie de Cherico]

Know, they're in commercials. Like they put these nut crushing videos in. There's actual insurance commercials and stuff that play memes. It's crazy.

[Casey O'Brien]

Also, mixtapes back then they mimicked the channel changing quality of our television culture. Especially, especially in 80s 90s where, you know, cable TV is present and then you have hundreds of channels. So the idea of these mixtapes acting as an alternative to television was a really mind blowing idea. And the people who made the mixtapes, it was kind of like bands, you know, it was. I relate everything to the band metaphor because I think that's how Gen X people know how to talk to each other.

[Jevon]

Well, it is interesting you bring up like how that sort of like underground visuals are now held at the same place as mainstream media. You know, it's like I, I buy something on AM, I could go to Amazon.com and the same way you would find something that's like more alternative now is the same. It, it has a, it's like like on the same platform now. Whereas before there was no real infrastructure or like if there was an infrastructure, it was much more underground, much more difficult to navigate just to find this type of culture, let alone to like take it in, you know, it's very interesting how things have changed.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah. Also buying things through these bootleggers because let's be clear, the people who you were buying all these tapes from and magazines, they're all bootleggers. None of them have the rights to do any of it. But the art of creating the mixtape and the art of distributing the mixtapes, those are two separate arts. They're both kind of lost. Because everything is nothing. Nothing is everything.

[Jevon]

Yeah. Well, Millie, you had some story. I remember. Didn't you used to buy dubs from some security guard or like bouncer at some club? Am I making that up entirely?

[Millie de Cherico]

No, that is absolutely true. I think I've told this story before my last podcast. But yeah, I used to buy dubs of like Asian action movies from a bouncer at this really seedy strip club in Atlanta. And he was a friend, he was the boyfriend of one of my friends from high school basically. And he was, he had a folded up, stapled papers, like maybe like 10 pages or something. Stapled, folded in half and shoved in his back pocket. And if you were like wanting to see like the heroic trio or something, or like something that was like. It was all Asian stuff. Typically a lot of, you know, things you couldn't get imported into America because it was just extremely expensive to get Asian Films back in the day. Right. Or impossible. But he would make dubs from his collection. And as long as you gave him $50 in cash.

[Casey O'Brien]

50?

[Brett Berg]

Oh, wow, that's pretty steep for, like, friend to friend exchange.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yo, these scumbags back in the day, they like not to necessarily call him a scum. Well, maybe I am. I don't even know. He will not be listening, so it doesn't really matter. But. But like, that was what Brett was talking about, how the distribution was an art form. It was. There was a lot of guys out there just like. Like charging the craziest amounts for dubs and knowing that they had you because they were like, where else you gonna go, baby? Like, I'm the only one you got. And so I would, like, give this guy $50 in cash. He gave me, like, the Story of Ricky. Terrible quality or whatever, like on a VHS tape. And then I was a happy college person. But yeah, that was like that. I mean, that's insane to think about. Like, you know, it's insane to think about. Like now the movies that I was buying from a bouncer to strip club are like, on Criterion Collection.

[Brett Berg]

Yeah. And like, the 4K UHD of some of those titles is less than $50, which is what you were paying on this bootleg VHS 30 years ago.

[Millie de Cherico]

So I want to talk to you guys a little bit about what you do at agfa, because basically you're keeping the tradition of this alive in many ways. And I also want to talk about y' all specifically in your side projects, because I know both of you have kind of little side hustles that involve found footage or direct to video films. I would love to talk about that. But talk to me a little bit about AGFA generally and then how AGFA is now kind of creating these comps in the same realm of what we were just talking about.

[Casey O'Brien]

Well, Joe, you give the history roundup of where we came from.

[Brett Berg]

Okay? All right. I'll try to keep it very brief because at this point, Agfa is 15 years old and there have been so many different iterations, but it started out as strictly a film archive with about 3,000 feature length films on 35 millimeter. And it was started by Tim and Carrie League in Austin, Texas. And for the longest time there was one employee at Agfin and his name was Sebastian Del Castillo. He's no longer at the staff, but we love him so much. And he was the beating heart of AGFA for so long. And when, let's see, I moved to Austin in 2012 and was introduced to the archive and Seb and we really hit it off. And we were always kind of joking around at screenings like, oh, if we could do something more with Agafilic, what could we do? And then it really snowballed in 2016, where Tim League was interested in scanning films in the archive that were rare. And so he was sending them out to be scanned. And the price to get them scanned was pretty enormous. And so I think it was his idea that which is like, oh, what if AGFA got a scanner and what if we could just digitize all these things? So we did a Kickstarter to get that and it was successful. And as soon as that happened, we started working with Lisa Petrucci at Something Weird and got a lot of the Something Weird archive and started scanning those and started the home video label. And Brett came on to do the theatrical aspect of agfa, which was basically an extension of sending the prints out to theaters to play. But then using that, what we had built up with that, to really expand it into dcps and beyond that. And then Alicia joined and Ivan joined and it just kind of went from there. And we became who we are now, which is basically like the world's probably the world's largest nonprofit genre film distributor and archive. So we have a home video arm, a theatrical arm. We're moving into vod. Just like all sorts of stuff that we're doing, anything and everything we can think up, any crazy idea we can think up to further the mission. What we're doing as a nonprofit, we do it. So that's. I hope that makes sense to everyone that's listening that's never heard of agfa.

[Millie de Cherico]

It's kind of like. And it's for genre films specifically. Right. So explain that a little bit to the listeners.

[Brett Berg]

Right. I think for us, I mean, genre means anything. I mean, it could be an action movie, it could be a comedy, it could be a documentary. It's the genre that it is like the name of the genre. But for us it seems to fall more into the like underground, outsider, neglected things that no one else is going to touch. So we take genre in that direction, but it's more of like a catch all. But I think that's what it means for us.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah. So now AGFA has been releasing, they have a home video arm. They've been releasing a lot of great titles and have been doing so for years. I mean, stuff that I just. A lot of stuff I've never even heard of before, let alone the stuff that I never thought I'd actually see, I mean, you've done so many great things from Ed Wood to these insane Florida exploitation movies, and it really runs the gamut of so many different things. But y' all have started specifically making these compilations and I feel like you've done like at least three or four. Am I wrong about that? So talk to me a little bit about what those are.

[Casey O'Brien]

Those are us trying to make something out of nothing. In the process of having a Blu Ray label and needing to release one thing per month, sometimes there's a lack of film prints for us to immediately do things with. And we realize that because we're an archive, it doesn't mean that we just have to take a feature film print and put that on a Blu Ray. It means that we can utilize any material that we have to create something that's fun, exciting and contextual. So in recent times we did a feature length edit of Drive in Intermission Snipes called Hey folks, it's intermission time. We've got a lot of trailers in our archives. So we've done to date two different feature length trailer compilations where we're not just having the trailers themselves on the disc, we'll actually make a feature length mixtape out of them where we choose the best bits from them. And then most recently we did the Agfa Mystery Mixtape Vault. Which is it? Vault or Archive? I'm forgetting Vault. Yeah. Where during 2020 in the COVID lockdown era, we had less to do with theaters and we just started tinkering around with video material that we had at our disposal just to make something fun and accessible and sort of just like make the day a little easier, especially in 2020. And a lot of those have ended up on that Mystery Mixtape Vault. A lot of random stuff, but also a Christmas mix, a Stairway to Stardom mix. Stairway to Stardom was like an 80s public access version of American Idol. And Joe did the Lost and Found Video Night mixtape, which is from the label Five Minutes to Live, which was that one from Atlanta that we were talking about earlier. So to the best of that person's version of Found Footage.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

And all those eight things are squashed together on one disc. Back from Mystery Mixtape Vault. And it was a real milestone for us recently because it was a release that we had sold out the initial run of, but we didn't actually tell anybody what was on it, which is pretty rare. That's great for a Blu Ray release.

[Millie de Cherico]

That's awesome.

[Brett Berg]

I don't know if anyone has ever done that before with the Blu Ray.

[Millie de Cherico]

I Think it's great, though. It's like, you know, it's kind of like a blind box. I don't know. People are obsessed with those blind boxes now. It's like you just like get something and put it on. And I mean, you know that the, the author or the curators are great. So you just have to kind of, you know, soak in it, trust in their expertise, Right?

[Jevon]

Yeah. It's like going to a restaurant and it's like a trust me meal, you know, to the chef. It's like you cook up something good for me, you know? I trust you. When you guys are like, looking through this footage, you know, kind of culling and trying to figure out what goes on these, these, you know, mixtapes, are you watching a lot of stuff where you're like, this is just bad for like, every, like, thing that you find is that's good, you know, like, do you have to, like, you know, kiss a lot of frogs to find your prince in there? Or like, what's that process? Like?

[Casey O'Brien]

I would say yes to whatever metaphor you choose.

[Jevon]

Okay.

[Casey O'Brien]

And the process is really just looking through stuff after stuff, after stuff stuff, trying to find the glimpses of footage where the spidey sense goes up, whether it's a particular thematic content or just contextual quality. Does it make me excited to share it with someone? Is it cinematic in some way where there's an accidental story being told through whatever the hell's happening that isn't exactly what they meant to tell, but it tells a story to us decades later on the mystery mixtape vault. One of the mixtapes is very Freddy centric because it's an hour's worth of stuff that mostly has to do with horror sequels. I'm always fascinated by horror sequels. So that just kind of became a theme for one of the mixtapes and Robert Englund and the fandom that came along with Freddie and Freddie's representation of pop culture, like how it appeared on MTV and stuff, that's always fascinating to me.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah.

[Casey O'Brien]

So it's just once you, like, I set the template of, okay, this one's going to be about sequels, and then it's just whatever kind of fits the bill.

[Millie de Cherico]

That's what I think is kind of the key point maybe to this is. Is the curation part, because, you know, I think the word curator, like, whatever, is being thrown around a lot these days.

[Casey O'Brien]

I hate that word. Yeah, I don't like that word at all.

[Millie de Cherico]

I wish there was a new word. I mean, programmer feels good. That's what I call myself. But it's like, I don't even know. A lot of people think that's like computer programming. So we need a. We need a new word. But vj, I want to be a vj. I want to be a VJ contest. But I. I think that that's kind of the art to it, right? Because you're obviously the person that's in charge of figuring out what's crap and what's not crap. Right? And, like, I think that that is the. I think that's why when you find, especially even online now, you find these, like, kind of Instagram accounts or TikTok accounts with people who are just, like, making weird content. You are, in a way, sort of like, trusting that they know what's good and funny and interesting and versus not. You know what I mean? And that's why I think, you know, what you guys do is so great, is because I, as a fan, you know, of. Of you guys and both your work and. But also the work of Agfa, like, trust that you know what you're talking about. You have a sensibility that I know and appreciate. And so I feel like. Like I'm on the ride, you know? And I just don't know if people really think about it in that way. Like, when they think curation, like, oh, it's just somebody who's just playing whatever they want. I'm like, no, no, no. I think there's a lot more to it.

[Casey O'Brien]

Well, I mean, I think that it. It's not a conversation of what's good versus what, what's bad or what's crap versus not crap. It's more about what is exciting versus dull. Because as the programmer or the editor or the VJ or the curator.

[Millie de Cherico]

To.

[Casey O'Brien]

Me, the job is seeing through the audience's eyes and what is going to raise their pulse. Rather than this is what I like or this is what I don't like. I'm trying to think of what is this body of people, the 75 people in a room, if you want to imagine a film screening or something, what are they all reacting to? Beat for beat. And that, for me, determines where the edit points are, is where their interest keeps riding high versus when does it. The peaks and valleys of their interest.

[Millie de Cherico]

Right.

[Brett Berg]

Yeah. And I think that bringing up that about the live show, I think a lot of it ties back into years of hosting and programming live screenings because you're chasing that feeling of when the audience gets it and you love it. So I think that really ties into the choices that you make while you're cutting these things.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah. And I think today's generation of found footage makers, whether it's us or I'm forgetting their name, those two sisters in Australia, Soda Jerk, Soda Jerk. Or the collective in New York that made the very, very stark climate change found footage piece. I'm forgetting their name. Or the people that made the Y2K documentary that was on HBO Max. I think that. And everything is terrible because they're still continuing to make stuff. And even people like Found Footage Fest, you know, all the found footage makers, I think, at this point, are using a somewhat empathetic lens to choose their material. Meaning you are putting yourself in the shoes of the audience as a body, rather than this is what I like or this is what I don't like. I'm really excited to see everybody's found footage work now because I think we've hit that level that goes beyond the so bad it's good concept, or even the what the fuck concept that was around in the 2000s. Now we've reached this place about why does this exist? That's the question I have in my mind every time I watch a piece of crazy found footage. Why does this exist? And then you can go down the rabbit hole of that creator or team or whatever to try to get into their head. And this fosters an empathetic attitude towards life in general.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah, I mean, and there's so many. They're actual filmmakers, I think of people like, like Adam Curtis or Bill Morrison or somebody who frequently use found footage, like, in their work to tell a big story, you know, and get nominated for, like, Academy Awards in the case of Bill Morrison. So it's kind of like it's. Yeah, it's people making memes and stuff, but in compilations. But it's also people using that found footage to tell, you know, again, more to your point, more empathetic stories, more important stories.

[Casey O'Brien]

Yeah, I mean, I think the best found footage work being made today is stuff that examines where we've been, where we are and where we're going. So I just. I like to think that's what we do at agfo. And it's not just a random collision of crusty old things where people talk like this, because there's a lot of that. And in fact, our next found footage disc release has a lot of people talking like this in old movies. That's funny, Joe. Do we want to talk about that at all, or are we keeping mum?

[Brett Berg]

Well, it goes up. The pre order goes up this Thursday, May 1st. So I guess. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, go for it, Brent.

[Casey O'Brien]

Oh, this is a release called Danger Stories, which is our second collab with something weird video that explores the realm of 20th century educational films.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah, huge.

[Casey O'Brien]

The first one was Drug Stories a number of years ago. That was a lot of fun to put together. That has the whole shortwear. Flory Fisher, who's the inspiration for Jerry Blank from Strangers with Candy, that legendary proto viral film where she's addressing a whole room of high schoolers. And they might be into drugs, but I'm telling you, don't get into the drugs like the total dime.

[Millie de Cherico]

Drop a dime on them.

[Casey O'Brien]

Drop a dime. Yeah. Just total madness. So we have a second volume called Danger Stories which is all about health and safety films. And so the bonus feature on this disc is an hour long thing that I made that plays upon the concept of the word salad of these shorts because they're trying to convey a lot of information and none of it makes sense and none of it is even meant to make sense. It's just to scare you. So there's a lot of people talking like this very sternly about nuclear fallout or, or don't get the streptococcus virus or whatever. And I just took a whole like 30 plus hours of that and did a, like a deck shuffling word salad symphony.

[Millie de Cherico]

Oh man.

[Casey O'Brien]

Kind of directly in the vein of Negativeland and Bruce Connor and a lot of the classic quote culture jamming stuff from the 80s and 90s in this respect.

[Jevon]

Yeah, amazing.

[Millie de Cherico]

There's a lot of pockets we could go down. I mean, honestly, like the industrial films, the classroom scare films, like those used to be really big and they used to have the educational archives compilations that would come out. Yeah. And then just again, trailers. Going back to your original point, I mean, something weird was huge in that world. They used to come out with comps of trailers all the time. And yeah, we could honestly talk about this forever. And I was telling Casey before you guys arrived, I was like, we could go like four or five hours on this topic. So let's, let's keep that in mind. But I wanted to say, I wanted to ask you both about again, sort of like your side projects or your passion projects, your other companies that you do alongside Agfa. So Joe, tell me a little bit about Bleeding Skull because I feel like this is kind of related to what we're talking about.

[Brett Berg]

Right, right, yeah, of course. I think both Museum of Home Video and Bleeding Skull are absolutely. They're all intertwined. They all feed from, you know, into the same thing. So, yeah, I mean Bleeding Skull has been around 21 years. This year from 2004. It started out as a site that was just movie reviews and then we. We did a couple books over the years. And now my partner Annie Choi and I launched a home video label, Bleeding Skull Home Video Label, as a Vinegar Syndrome partner last year in 2024. So we love doing it so much. It's just very pure and kind of. There's nothing keeping us from doing whatever we want to do with it. It's just really fun. And yeah, we're having a great time with it.

[Millie de Cherico]

And it's primarily direct to video horror or like home video horror, right?

[Brett Berg]

Yeah, yeah. It's very underground. Probably like the most underground stuff you can get. But I think the goal we've had with releasing things for Bleeding Skull is making sure that they're going to appeal to other people, not just us. Because there's a whole other subset of stuff that I'm into that I would never think of releasing because it's just for me, no one else is going to relate to it or buy it or be interested in it. So we try to find the titles, the ones that we love, each and every one of them, but make sure that these are things that people are going to want to buy and watch and enjoy. So movies like Blonde Death was the first one that we did. And then we did a 4k uhd for a movie called Disembodied, which I still can't believe we did that. We actually made like a 4K UHD. But so yeah, it's a lot. It's a big mix of stuff. Very underground sov to underground, 16 millimeter films, all sorts of different kind of stuff. And we do have a found footage centered release coming later this year, which is exciting.

[Millie de Cherico]

Well, I have to say y' all released a movie that's perhaps my favorite title of any movie that has ever been made. And it's actually a sequel. It's the sequel to the movie Fuck the Devil. And the name of the title is Fuck the Devil 2 Return of the Fucker.

[Brett Berg]

The Fucker's Back.

[Millie de Cherico]

I mean, honestly, every time I think about that, I laugh. So thank you for this. Thank you for bringing this into my life is what I'm saying.

[Brett Berg]

Thank you. Thank you for even acknowledging that. That you've watched that.

[Millie de Cherico]

God, I had to. I mean, that title alone is so good. Well, and Brett, let's talk a little bit about Museum of Home Video too. Because I remember when you started it, I believe was it during the pandemic when you started.

[Casey O'Brien]

Oh, yeah, yeah. So Museum of Home Video is a live stream that I do every Tuesday night at 7:30pm Pacific onwards. And it is a found footage variety show show. It's taking all the things that we've talked about throughout this call and kind of turning it into an MTV style presentation where it's 20 to 30 minutes of bleh. And then I'll come on and I'll say, you just saw this and now you're going to see this and dive back into the mix. It's something that was originally going to be a live show in LA starting in June of 2020, but whoop, whoops, we couldn't do that. So we pivoted, me and my producer, Jenny Nixon, who Millie has known probably longer than I have.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah, I think. So.

[Casey O'Brien]

We just decided to turn it into something online and we debuted in July of 2020 and we have done it just about every single Tuesday night since then. And it's formed a real interesting community of funny people who all are drawn Pavlovian style to found footage stuff. A lot of Gen Xers, I'll say, but it's old game show clips, old talk show clips, old commercials. I'll take a movie and I'll cut it down to eight minutes. Very much in the style of college radio. But I like to say it's college radio for the eyes or stealing a phrase from Weird Al's uhf. It's the reason television was invented so that all these years later we could do this with it. Yeah.

[Millie de Cherico]

I have to say, like, I. I have loved working with you guys in the past. Full disclosure, I used to be on the board of AGFO for a couple years and I just really am happy that there, you know, is a place that is basically preserving this kind of stuff. I was wondering if maybe you could tell the folks, like, how could they support agfo? Like if they can make donations, come to screenings, buy things like, what is it?

[Brett Berg]

Yeah, all of those things. And thank you, Millie. We miss you.

[Millie de Cherico]

Oh, I miss you guys too.

[Brett Berg]

But all of those things you can donate directly to AGFA from our site. There's a donation button at the top. You can buy our Blu Rays, you can go to our screenings, you can support the venues all across the country in the world who are screening our theatrical catalog everywhere. There are so many different ways you can support us. And it doesn't just have to be, you know, I'm going to donate $20 to you today. I think that the, to me, it's like the support Comes from all over the place. It comes from audiences. It comes from people just. Just like you. You telling us that you enjoy what we're doing, you know, it means a lot. This whole conversation is very energizing to me and feels so good. Makes me happy. So there's just so many ways to support and just to be positive and joyful about all these things. So, yeah, that's my pitch.

[Millie de Cherico]

Well, Brett and Joe, I just wanted to say thanks again for coming on the podcast. Casey and I had an amazing time talking to y' all about your area of expertise. I feel like, you know, this is something that is so near and dear to my heart. It's part of how I grew up. So it felt very personal to me to be having this conversation with you guys, but also just like, amazing, interesting, you know, sort of to dive back into that world of, you know, like, the pre digital eras. So. Thank you for coming.

[Casey O'Brien]

Thank you. I mean, this was. It's always a joy to talk about this stuff and getting to talk to you as a highlight of any week.

[Brett Berg]

Absolutely.

[Jevon]

Oh, my gosh, what a stimulating conversation with Brett and Joe. I was so I. That's a world I don't necessarily know a ton about, but I'm very interested in. And, yeah, I loved hearing what they had to say about found footage. It was really a great combo.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah. Love those guys. Love agfa. Support them if you can. They're a great nonprofit out here doing. Doing the good work, so.

[Jevon]

Absolutely. Well, now is our segment, Employees Picks, where we recommend a movie based on what we talked about today. Millie, do you have a film recommendation for the folks out there?

[Millie de Cherico]

Um, yeah. I was like, oh, I could run down the whole gamut of things. There's so many titles that could be included.

[Jevon]

I mean, I. Oh, there's so many. I mean, a million.

[Millie de Cherico]

Even Greece, Even though I do not like Greece.

[Jevon]

But Danny Zuko turn around with a cigarette in his mouth. Listen, just because you like Grease too more doesn't mean you have to hate Greece.

[Millie de Cherico]

Listen, I didn't like. I'm gonna. I'm saying I didn't like Greece before I discovered Greece too, by the way. So.

[Jevon]

All right.

[Millie de Cherico]

It was not like, I'm not, like, retroactively disliking the first Grease because I like Grease to. To. I was like, I don't like this very much. Or, you know, I was like, I'm annoyed by this. And then don't tell my.

[Jevon]

Don't tell my brother, Brady o' Brien.

[Millie de Cherico]

Why?

[Jevon]

Who? Greece is like his favorite movie. He Loves Greece.

[Millie de Cherico]

What? Why is that? Do you know?

[Jevon]

He loves Greek? What? I mean, I like Greece. It's a fun movie. It's a fun time.

[Millie de Cherico]

But that's to be a fact that you'd bring up about him. He said he really, really likes it.

[Jevon]

He just let you know some of those musical sequences are intoxicating. What can I say in the first one?

[Millie de Cherico]

Well, listen, I don't want to.

[Jevon]

We don't need to get into it now.

[Millie de Cherico]

Sorry, Casey's brother. I don't mean to disparage your favorite film and IP of all time. Okay, So I. There was so many, I swear to God, like, don't tell me about Breakfast at Tiffany's. Don't tell me about Greece. I think since we're talking about crime films, noirs, ish, you know, foreign noirs with Elenda Lawn and Melville. You have to go classic American noir, smoking. And that is Robert Mitchum and Out of the past from 1947. The poster is like, all you need to know. Like, he's just smoking.

[Jevon]

Look at that fat cigarette hanging out of his mouth.

[Millie de Cherico]

I know. He probably. You think that's a camel wide? How gross is the camel wide, dude? Like, why would anybody smoke? I knew one person that smoked them in high school, and I was like, damn, that's a fat cigarette. Why?

[Jevon]

I always felt that about American spirits. I feel like American spirits became the hipsters cigarette of choice, but they were so big and fat that it was like, oh, I don't want to smoke anymore tonight.

[Millie de Cherico]

Oh.

[Jevon]

And they.

[Millie de Cherico]

They take forever to smoke.

[Jevon]

They take forever. It's like a thick milkshake. That's why I was a parliament guy. Could just suck them down.

[Millie de Cherico]

That's why you were getting cards of Parliament. Someone's thrown at you.

[Jevon]

Thrown into the window of our apartment building.

[Millie de Cherico]

That's so funny. So that. That's my recommendation. If you want to see some good smoking.

[Jevon]

Oh, it's great.

[Millie de Cherico]

If, you know. If you know for a fact that they're Campbell Wides, please email us at Dear movies. Exactly right. Media.com.

[Jevon]

We need to do one of those, like, enhance, enhance to zoom in on the. The cigarette to see if we can see a little Camel on there.

[Millie de Cherico]

All right, what's your recommendation?

[Jevon]

Okay, so, you know, when we were trying to think of movies to talk about with, like, a celebration of cigarettes, this was one that came up. But I. I don't know. I was kind of against doing. It's too obvious. But I do love this movie, so I'm going to recommend it. Coffee and cigarettes. Jim Jarmusch's 2003 anthology film, which is just a bunch of conversations of people, I think, at, like, diners.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah.

[Jevon]

Smoking cigarettes. And it's just such a great movie and a huge inspiration to me. I haven't talked about this much, but I filmed a feature film a few months ago, and we are in post production right now. And the movie takes place entirely in various bathrooms. And it's just conversations in bathrooms. And so this is obviously a huge inspiration to me, sort of of as a form factor of a movie, you know, like, just so. I love this movie. It's really interesting. I think about it all the time. There's a lot of great performances. You know, Steve Buscemi, Alfred Molina, Tom Waits, Iggy Pop. It's the. The White Stripes are in it. I love this movie. I think it's great and it's really watchable. And I love Jim Jarmusch so much. And. Yeah.

[Millie de Cherico]

Good choice.

[Jevon]

Great movie. Thank you.

[Millie de Cherico]

Good choice. Employee. You really did it.

[Jevon]

Employee.

[Millie de Cherico]

All right.

[Jevon]

Well, Millie, we did it. We did it again.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yes, we did.

[Jevon]

How do you feel at the end of our show?

[Millie de Cherico]

You're coughing. You're coughing.

[Jevon]

Good. Yeah.

[Millie de Cherico]

You feel that burn in your chest? Next day, rough.

[Jevon]

Oh, I feel good. I'm a little light headed. That was always a thing, too. If you're, like, out drinking, it's like, I'm gonna have a cigarette. And you're like, that one cigarette, put me over. Listen, now I'm throwing up in a dumpster.

[Millie de Cherico]

Instantly regrettable. Like, you're just like, jesus, that was such a bad choice. I'm wasted. Well, listen, next week's episode, I know we just have been dancing around noir, but we're gonna do.

[Jevon]

You've been flirting with it.

[Millie de Cherico]

We're flirting with it. We're doing a little, little, little song and dance with them. The next week's episode is going to be about film noir, but specifically an era of film noir, which is kind of. It's kind of like almost like a micro genre, but it's. It's Cold War film noir. And these are movies that were essentially made in Hollywood that were roughly about communism and the Cold War. But there's this movie called Kiss me deadly from 1955 that is on Criterion Collection if you want to watch it. Starring an actor named Ralph Meeker, who I feel like is so weird. Like, it's weird that Ralph Meeker was famous. Like, he's so normal looking to me. And we can talk about that because actually there is a connection between Ralph Meeker and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. So we'll talk about it next week.

[Jevon]

But he does look like your dentist.

[Millie de Cherico]

Yeah, he just looks like a real normal dude, but he was in a.

[Jevon]

Lot of, like, born in Minneapolis.

[Millie de Cherico]

There we go. Here we go. It's one of you. But Kiss Me Deadly is a very interesting movie. If you've not seen it, it's kind of bizarre and I think it's kind of like the best thing about it. So let's all watch it and talk about it next week.

[Jevon]

Fabulous. I can't wait. I've never seen it. I'm excited. Fabulous. Well, that's our show. If you would like us to answer any questions you have, any film advice we can give you, please write to us. If you need a specific recommendation, need help navigating a director's filmography, or need a film gripe resolved, please Write in dear moviesexactlyrightmedia.com or you can leave us a voicemail and record it on your phone. Keep it under 60 seconds and please record in a quiet place. And you can send that to dearMoviesExactlyRightMedia.com.

[Millie de Cherico]

Please also follow us on social media. We are at dearmovies I love you on Instagram and Facebook and we're all in letterboxd as ourselves. So we're at Casey Lee o' Brien and Decherico.

[Jevon]

That's right. And you can listen to Dear Movies I Love youe on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And hey, why don't you rate and review our show, preferably positively. But it really helps to get our podcast out there if you rate and review the show. So do that if you can.

[Millie de Cherico]

All right, Kasey, way to go. Fun episode. Thanks everybody for listening and we'll see you next week.

[Jevon]

All right, bye Bye.

[Millie de Cherico]

This has been an exactly right production. Hosted by me, Millie de Cherico, and produced by my co host, Casey o' Brien.

[Jevon]

This episode was mixed by Tom Breyfogle. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. Our guest booker is Patrick Cotner, and our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

[Millie de Cherico]

Our incredible theme music is by the best band in the entire world, the Softies.

[Jevon]

Thank you to our executive producers, Karen Kilgariff, Georgia Hardstark, Daniel Kramer and Millie de Cherico.

[Millie de Cherico]

We love love you.

[Jevon]

Goodbye.

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