Trust Exercise | 7

Summary

Death County, PA - Episode 7: Trust Exercise

Release Date: May 27, 2025 | Host/Author: Wondery

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Introduction

In the seventh episode of Death County, PA, titled "Trust Exercise", host Joshua Vaughn delves deep into the intricate web of events surrounding Dauphin County Prison (DCP). This episode uncovers the complexities of prison administration, systemic corruption, personal traumas, and the ongoing fight for justice and reform. Through candid conversations with key figures like Commissioner Justin Douglas and mayoral candidate Lamont Jones, the episode sheds light on the challenges and strides being made to transform the prison system in Dauphin County.

Board Meeting and De-escalation Commendation

The episode opens with a detailed account of a Dauphin County Prison Board meeting held on [00:25]. Unlike previous gatherings, this session was notable for its recognition of prison staff for their adept handling of a medical emergency involving an inmate.

Justin Douglas, the Prison Board Chair, commended the security and medical teams:

“Their keen attention to detail and vigilance during the CERN activation and hospital transport of a new commitment kept the situation from escalating and prevented any harm to staff or the new commitment.” ([02:10])

This commendation marked a pivotal moment, highlighting a shift towards de-escalation and mental health awareness within the prison system, a departure from past incidents often ending in violence or neglect.

Uncovering Systemic Corruption

As the narrative progresses, the episode unveils revelations of systemic corruption within Dauphin County. Justin Douglas addresses allegations against former County Commissioner Jeff Haast, who was found to have accepted substantial payments from PrimeCare, DCP's long-standing medical contractor:

“We just need to call it what it is. And it's unacceptable and there should be high account for that.” ([07:09])

Lamont Jones echoes this sentiment, emphasizing the urgent need for accountability:

“Anyone who's broken the law in order to profit off of Dauphin county should suffer the full weight of those consequences.” ([07:09])

These disclosures have sparked a rigorous investigation and a push towards transparency and accountability within the county's administration.

Impact on Commissioners and Campaigns

The fallout from the corruption scandal has significant implications for local leadership. Justin Douglas, now the chair of the commissioners, finds himself at the forefront of implementing reforms. Simultaneously, Lamont Jones is entrenched in his mayoral campaign, advocating for profound changes in the prison system. He shares his personal connection and commitment:

“I'm fighting to change the conditions.” ([05:26])

Lamont's campaign is buoyed by his grassroots support and his vow to be the first African American male mayor of Harrisburg, representing a historic shift in local politics.

Personal Traumas and the Fight for Justice

A poignant segment of the episode addresses the personal toll of the ongoing crises at DCP. Lamont Jones speaks solemnly about the loss of his cousin, Carmen, whose death underscores the urgent need for reform:

“Carmen... she probably will never be okay. She's very silent now...” ([15:41])

The family continues to seek justice, with ongoing lawsuits against corrections officers and the reinstatement of PrimeCare as a defendant, highlighting the long-lasting impacts of these tragedies on families.

Reforms and Auditing Practices

In response to the corruption and mismanagement, Justin Douglas outlines comprehensive reform strategies aimed at overhauling DCP's operations:

1. Contract Auditing:

   “We are not putting the highest amount of scrutiny on the work that they're getting paid taxpayer dollars to do.” ([17:24])

   The county has initiated an auditing process for PrimeCare, intending to evaluate their performance and ensure accountability through regular audits every three years.

2. Transparency and Trust Building:

   “We know what transparency looks like when it's healthy... you gotta earn trust.” ([18:15])

   Douglas emphasizes the necessity of transparent practices to rebuild public trust, acknowledging the deep-seated skepticism within the community.

County Coroner Graham Hetrick’s Re-election

The episode also scrutinizes County Coroner Graham Hetrick, who faces re-election amid controversies surrounding his handling of DCP cases. During a public forum, Hetrick maintained his stance on independence, yet faces growing calls for accountability. Lamont Jones expresses cautious optimism:

“Anything's possible.” ([21:04])

The outcome of this election could significantly influence the future of coroner practices and oversight in Dauphin County.

Host's Personal Experiences and Mental Health

Joshua Vaughn, the host, opens up about the emotional and psychological toll of investigating and reporting on the grim realities of DCP:

“Months of reporting on prison deaths really started getting to me. I started having panic attacks...” ([25:30])

Lamont Jones relates, highlighting the shared burden among those committed to justice:

“It's just not a job. It's just not a job.” ([27:45])

Their candid discussions underscore the human cost of uncovering and confronting systemic injustices.

Community Engagement and Future Outlook

Despite the heavy themes, the episode concludes on a note of resilience and hope. Both Justin Douglas and Lamont Jones emphasize the community's growing demand for justice and reform. They articulate a vision where collective effort and persistent advocacy can lead to meaningful changes within Dauphin County's prison system.

Lamont Jones expresses his commitment to accessibility and tangible reform as he continues his mayoral campaign:

“When we are elected, we're just going to speak that into existence.” ([22:46])

Justin Douglas reflects on the necessity of bold leadership and the potential for broader impact beyond local politics:

“We need leaders that are gonna fight...” ([23:55])

Conclusion

"Trust Exercise" is a compelling episode that navigates the intricate dynamics of power, corruption, personal loss, and the relentless pursuit of justice within Dauphin County Prison. Through in-depth interviews and personal reflections, Joshua Vaughn paints a vivid picture of a community grappling with its past while striving towards a more transparent and accountable future.

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Notable Quotes:

• Joshua Vaughn ([00:25]): "That's how I joined Business as usual Today, the county commissioners have earmarked time to discuss..."

• Justin Douglas ([02:10]): “Their keen attention to detail and vigilance during the CERN activation and hospital transport...”

• Lamont Jones ([05:26]): “I know that I'm not ever disconnected from that as I'm making decisions.”

• Joshua Vaughn ([25:30]): “A couple years ago, the months and months of reporting on prison deaths really started getting to me.”

• Lamont Jones ([22:46]): “When we are elected, we're just going to speak that into existence.”

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Production Credits:

• Written and Reported by: Joshua Vaughn
• Producer: Rachel Yong
• Senior Producer: Chris Siegel
• Associate Producer: Emily Locke
• Fact Checking: Annika Robbins
• Sound Design and Mixing: Jay Rothman
• Sound Supervisor: Marcelino Villalpando
• Music Supervisor: Scott Velasquez for Frison Sync
• Senior Managing Producer: Lata Pandya
• Managing Producers: Heather Baloga and Matt Gant
• Senior Development Editor: Rachel B. Doyle
• Development Producer: Olivia Weber
• Executive Producers for Advanced Local: Richard Diamond and Selena Roberts
• Executive Producers: N'Hy'jeri Eaton, George Lavender, Marshall Louie, and Jen Sargent

For more episodes, follow Death County, PA on the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Transcript

[Joshua Vaughn]

Wondry plus subscribers can binge all episodes of Death County, Pennsylvania early and ad free. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts.

[Justin Douglas]

Inspector Board Meeting two Or if we would all rise for a moment of power to pledge to the fly. I pledge allegiance to the flag to the United States of America.

[Joshua Vaughn]

Another Dolphin County Prison Board meeting Community members and prison staff file into the hearing room at dcp. Everyone takes their seats. Commissioners sit at a table facing the audience. Cameras are set up to live stream the meeting. That's how I joined Business as usual Today, the county commissioners have earmarked time to discuss the way prison staff handled an emergency situation with an inmate.

[Justin Douglas]

As we alluded to last Prison Board, we had a medical emergency in the Judicial center.

[Joshua Vaughn]

The incident had occurred about a month earlier. An inmate wasn't cooperating with corrections officers and started making physical threats toward them. I'd seen the Prison Board discuss incidents like this in the past, but this time something was different.

[Justin Douglas]

The Baltimore County Prison Board and Prison Administration would like to formally commend our security and medical staff for their outstanding performance and professionalism during the incident.

[Joshua Vaughn]

On Tuesday, February 11, 2020, Warden Gregory Briggs described that the COs on duty had deescalated the situation. Instead of going hands on with the inmate, they saw that he was experiencing a mental health crisis. They brought in medical staff to assess him. They spent an hour strategizing how to communicate with him, and in the end they got him the care he needed. It was a situation with a lot of similarities to cases I'd reported on at dcp. Cases that had ended with COs using force or with inmate not receiving appropriate care, or even worse, with an inmate dying in custody. This time the CoS had calmed the situation down and the Prison Board was shouting that out.

[Justin Douglas]

Their keen attention to detail and vigilance during the CERN activation and hospital transport of a new commitment kept the situation from escalating and prevented any harm to staff or the new commitment. Path enrichment Lt. Rig armaments Lt. Matthew Branch Sgt.

[Joshua Vaughn]

Jason Adams the Prison Board named each staffer involved in the incident, the COs on duty and the medical staff who assessed the inmate, and they also presented each of them with a letter of commendation.

[Justin Douglas]

Thank you for your continued service and exceptional work. We are called to have all of you as part of our team.

[Joshua Vaughn]

This was the first time in my three years of attending prison Board meetings that I could remember hearing prison staff being commended for de escalation. It was just one moment, a recognition of something that should have been happening all along. But to me, it spoke volumes about how public scrutiny and pressure from Justin Douglas just might be changing the culture at dcp. Of course, that doesn't mean the work is over, especially for Justin and Lamont. Justin is now the chair of the commissioners, giving him new responsibilities and more authority to make changes in the county. When we recorded this episode, Lamont was in the middle of his mayoral campaign, just weeks away from the primary, and there aren't any Republican candidates on the ballot. So if Lamont wins the primary, he's almost guaranteed to win the mayoral seat. The three of us sat down to talk about what's next for Dauphin County Prison. And for each of them, from Wondry and Pennlive. I'm Joshua Vaughn, and this is a special episode of Death County, Pennsylvania.

[Lamont Jones]

Who's gonna feel my pain?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Who's gonna shave my name and all.

[Lamont Jones]

Joy but to be.

[Joshua Vaughn]

I won't lie, it wasn't easy to get Justin and Lamont in the same room at the same time. They are incredibly busy guys. But it was important to me that the three of us sit down together to reflect on everything that's happened over these years of reporting and to get them talking to each other about what changes are ahead for Dolphin County. We got a chance to all sit down together in a Pennlive conference room.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

When was the last time each of you went down the dcp and why were you there?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

The last time I was out there was a few weeks ago for a prison board meeting. The last time I walked the block was probably a week or two before that. Walking the block still really matters to me, like connecting with inmates and hearing their experience and trying to ensure that I'm not ever disconnected from that as I'm making decisions. But I also know that the things that actually move the needle are systematic advocating for different policies or pushing for actual long term changes. And so that's kind of that balance that I'm learning as a leader in this role.

[Lamont Jones]

For me, I think the last time actually, well, being there was the last, I want to say, two meetings ago. That was my first time in a while. They know that I was fighting, and I am fighting to change the conditions. Because I don't know how many people ever came back after incarceration to stand and fight. There was times that when I was younger and I was incarcerated and I would come out, I'd be like, you know what? I'm gonna do this. And soon as I got out, I said, shit, I'm free. I ain't never going back to that place, right? Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

And I just feel it's important to emphasize that I have the privilege of being able to walk into Dauphin County Prison at any time and walk the block. Not everybody does. There's a lot of people that would love to show their support by being present and connecting with inmates in that way. That's just not the way it works. And there are a ton of people that I've met on this journey that, like Lamont, spend a lot of time on matters related to Dauphin County Prison without being at Dauphin County Prison, whether that's supporting families who are dealing with the impacts of incarceration or figuring out how to ensure that our staff or other staffs are aware of commissary issues or not getting meds the right way. And how do we get this person a tablet because they can't connect with their family? It's a collective effort, not just me or my office. A lot of the people didn't know to contact a commissioner, and Lamont and others make sure they have my email or my, you know, number. And. And we're able to pass that along quickly and get that remedied.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

The other, obviously, the big news that came out through the reporting and through this whole process of this podcast is Jeff Haste and all the things that.

[Joshua Vaughn]

Have come up from there. Is there anyone else that you might be turning your attention to or efforts.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

In the county that you're able to talk about?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

What I'll say is, what's becoming quite clear is that there was a system and structure of corruption in Dauphin County. And when I say was, I would actually say still is. And I don't have any patience for that. I don't think the taxpayers should have any patience for that. Anyone who's broken the law in order to profit off of Dauphin county should suffer the full weight of those consequences. And I hope they do a stroll.

[Joshua Vaughn]

Is it what this is?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

The funny thing, you know, Lamont says that's strong, but it's really not. I mean, expect more. Like, I, I. I'll be honest, I get paid more in this job than I've ever gotten paid my whole life. I was a pastor for 20 years. Like, I worked for nonprofits my whole life. Like, I have tons of, like, opportunity in this role, but the idea of seeing this job as a way to get more wealthy, as a way to make sure my friends get wealthy, as a way to get kickbacks from vendors.

[Joshua Vaughn]

Late last year, Pennlai's reporting uncovered that former County Commissioner Jeff Haast had accepted hundreds of thousands of dollars from the then owner of Prime Care. The case is under investigation. No charges have been made yet. But it definitely raised some concerns for Justin and others in the county.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Like we just need to call it what it is. And it's. It's unacceptable and there should be high account for that. There are people who are getting taxed out of their homes while that money is going to corruption. Like that is unacceptable.

[Lamont Jones]

And I said it was strong because we haven't heard this from someone sitting in these seats. Even for me, he said this is the most monies that he's made in his life. This is the least money I've ever made in my life. I wish I had your salary. So again, it's not about the money. We have to be able to bring people back and get them to trust government again. And if it's only just him and I, hopefully this trends in the right direction. Changing a culture that doesn't happen overnight and putting people in the right places still they get pushed back because of how they're looking to operate and implement change. So I'll give you an example. The room and board. I'm like, why would I pay to stay in prison? I was like, wait a minute. Taxpayers are already paying for people to be housed. Why are we double dipping? When it first started, it was supposed to be a deterrent, but obviously it went way beyond that. And this created a lot of debt for people. And it actually was another way to keep recidivism going. So once we were able to bring it to a minimum, I don't want to say to an end because I think they still collect 125 to come in. But then after that, for him to be really pushing to let's take this depth off the people. The baton was kind of like handed and he took it and ran with it. And I was like, wow, you know, so that's a huge change because not only did it take the strain off of those individuals that were being housed there, it also helped the families on the other side.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

So I want to turn to some of the specific changes at dcp. Obviously mental health crisis leading to really bad outcomes. That happened in Tyreek's case, that happened in Ishmael, that happened for Jamal. I know there had been shared at the last prison board meeting about an incident that happened at the jail. That might be a good sign of some things that are coming or maybe a potential change in mindset or how things are operate at dcp. Can you talk to me a little.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Bit about what happen de escalation has been a training that we've been emphasizing. And on our last meeting, we were honoring individuals who leveraged the training, they've been provided and responded in a way that mitigated the potential for violence or the potential for, you know, harm to be done. And I think sometimes that's just about patience. Sometimes someone wants to be seen, heard, they're frustrated. I've been at the jail when someone who I have a relationship with is in crisis and asked to come talk to them and been able to de. Escalate that. And I've also seen cos do that because cos have relationships through the years with individuals. And, you know, I think when you can try to talk to somebody and maybe there's something that they feel like they're not being heard on and you can take the time to listen, it makes a difference. And so I know for a fact we're not going to bat a on this one, but I do think it's something we should celebrate when we get it right.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And I'm curious, Lamont, from. From your perspective, I mean, how do you feel about just hearing that a situation like this happened compared to, you know, the way things operated when you were there and the way things seem to have been operating for such a long period of time?

[Lamont Jones]

I'm still not sold. And that's just my. My honesty. And I could tell them that to their face, you know, until I see some more significant things happening. Because, again, like you said, a system, it's been in place. I'm looking to see that we expose more to things that aren't right. If another guard does something that's out of pocket, I think it should be publicly shared. So not only the people know that this is happening, but it also sends a message to any other correctional officer, hey, if you do, if you're involved in this type of behavior, we're gonna put your picture up. I don't think that there should be a shield there when it comes to that. So I'm looking forward to seeing things like that.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

What would things look like if another death occurred at DCP today? What's the best possible outcome? And what do you think still needs to be changed to get us to whatever the best possible outcome is?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I think each death at Dauphin County Prison should be seen through its own lens of what the unique circumstances are. Reviewing whether this was related to contraband that somehow got into the prison. As we're continuing to try to limit ways in which that gets in. Was there any use of force that we need to investigate and Ensure that we followed the proper procedures and protocols. Was this person suffering with mental health, and was this potentially a suicide? We need to do the work to understand the systemic realities of each of those different buckets, because they are very different. Obviously, the outcome is still tragic and heartbreaking, but the ways in which we stop each of those types of deaths requires our focus on different things. And that's where a lot of people are like, change it. Stop this. And while I echo that, it's just not that easy. There's a lot of unlearning to relearn that has to happen. There's a lot of attention to things that haven't been given attention historically that has to happen, not to mention the amount of protocols and procedures or policies that need to be reviewed and revised. So it would be tragic if it happened again. On Saturday, I sat with a mother whose daughter died at Dolphin County Prison.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

And just to be clear, this was not a recent death.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah. It was a death that happened several years ago. And she came up to me and thanked me for some of the things I was doing at Dauphin County Prison and then told me that her daughter had passed away there and shared a little bit of her story. And like all of those experiences, it's incredibly hard to hear. Lamont and I have all these moments, I think, with family members, where it kind of reminds us of, like, the calling that it is to be in this job, as opposed to just a job where we clock in and clock out. The job beats at you to where you want to just clock in and clock out sometimes, but then you have those kind of centering moments where you're talking to a family member that is aware that the work you're doing matters and it's necessary. And so it was a humbling moment.

[Joshua Vaughn]

For Lamont. Dealing with the aftermath of a family member who died at DCP constantly reinforces the work he's doing. Tyreek Riley's family is still seeking justice. Their lawsuit against the corrections officers involved in the use of force against Tyrique is still waiting to proceed. And they recently filed a motion to reinstate primecare as a defendant in the suit.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

How is Carmen and the rest of Tyreek's family doing now?

[Lamont Jones]

They're okay. But for my cousin Carmen, she probably will never be okay. You know, she's very silent now, and she's been a private person anyway. But this right here with her only child, it's like pain. You know, she's dealing with it. I think it's still going to take time for our family to wrap our heads around this, especially finding out what we found out versus what we were told in the beginning. So that's the painful piece. In my family, they know I'm the fighter, so they don't mind me being on the front line and saying the things that I need to say. So the family has not completely healed, and I think it's still going to take some time. So I think, yeah, we just keep them in your prayers and continue doing the works that we're doing here to expose some of this. I want people to be able to pick up this baton. And again, not just looking at Tyreek Riley or Ishmael or Jamal and all of the other people that have lost their lives to join in this fight, to make sure people are protected and safely getting to court, safely being able to serve their sentence and get out.

[Joshua Vaughn]

After almost 40 years as DCP's medical contractor, PrimeCare finally has some competition. Earlier this year, the county commissioners opened up a call for proposals. They received five.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Do you think that there is a mindset shift now in Dolphin county that whoever gets this contract, there needs to be more scrutiny on how the contract is carried out?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I'll say this, it's long overdue. We had a vendor that's been there for, I think, 30 years or something to that effect and have never been audited or put out for RFP until now. And, you know, this is our biggest contract in Dolphin county, the biggest contract that we have. We're not putting the highest amount of scrutiny on the work that they're getting paid taxpayer dollars to do, and it costs a lot of money when it fails. So we're already thinking about how we ensure that we're auditing that first year in a live audit through the year. These are kind of things we've never done before. It's just a way to further protect Dolphin County, Dolphin county residents, and certainly, you know, those who are incarcerated.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Once you have this all together, what impact should this audit have, and how will that actually happen in your book?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Well, look, my hope for the audit was for us to just get a fuller picture of what was being provided and where there was positives with our vendor, where there was negatives. I'm committed to continuing to improve every process, even the process whereby we do better at auditing and maybe even considering resolutions like every three years that a vendor is with us, they need to be audited. Those types of rules that we can create and implement that don't make this, you know, something that has to come to a crisis to happen, but it just happens naturally in the course of what it means to be a vendor of the county of Dauphin County. We know what transparency looks like when it's healthy. And Dauphin county still has some way to go to get there. And I think our prison has been a place where there's been a lack of transparency for so long that even when people see transparency, they don't trust it. They don't trust that it's transparent. They trust that like, okay, now you're being more open, but maybe you've just changed the facts or maybe you've massaged them, or maybe, you know, and I respond to that with an understanding of you can't lie to people for so long and then the moment you start telling them the truth, expect them to respond appropriately. You gotta earn trust. It's not just given to you.

[Joshua Vaughn]

One person in Dauphin county who's eroded public trust, county coroner Graham Hetrick. He's up for re election this year. Will he be voted into office for a 10th term or will the public finally hold him accountable? My name is Graham Hetrick. Got me the Dalton county corner for 34 years. Back in March, Graham Hetrick was in the hot seat. The Boys and Girls Club of Harrisburg opened up their gymnasium to host a pre election public forum. Voters were invited to ask questions to candidates in Dolphin county elections. More than one community member asked Graham about his work on cases at DCP and his opinion on prime. My job is to be independent of.

[Lamont Jones]

It and say, this is exactly what.

[Joshua Vaughn]

The evidence is and it's up to those people who run that prison to.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Say, well, we shouldn't have somebody having hypothermia.

[Joshua Vaughn]

That's not my job.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Graham's campaign thoughts on the likelihood that Graham will lose or thoughts that he will stay in office?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Are you just asking me to prognosticate whether or not he's going to like, if I was betting, man, what I.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Would bet what your thoughts are?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah, I mean, the man's got a bobblehead. He's very well known in that region. A lot of people like him. My diedrich reaction would say I'm betting on Graham. At the same time, that would have been everyone's knee jerk reaction when I announced I was running for commissioner. So, you know, I was a coach for basketball one year. I remember our kids being like, there's no way we're going to win this game. And I'm just like, this is why you played the game. You never know. You never know what could happen. And we ended up winning the game. And like, you know, that kind of mentality of, you know, what kind of campaign can be ran and what things can change, and people do care about prison reform. And I think, you know, Graham touches on some of that, especially when we talk about the deaths at dcp. And so, you know, anything's possible.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Lamont, what has the response been to your mayoral campaign?

[Joshua Vaughn]

And if you're elected mayor, what would that change about your ability to enact.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Change on the ground?

[Lamont Jones]

People are excited, of course. You know, you have the machine at work. They can see me coming like a Justin Douglas. You know, I'm not a part of the status quo. I am not owned, I am not bought. I am not paid for. So the response that I'm getting to the community, they are ready for change for the people that really understand and the people that really know Lamont Jones from his core. Even when I was making mistakes as a young man, I never was a person to overlook someone that was in need. I was always a compassionate person. I think my spirit, my aura, exemplifies that through action. And the people are ready. When we are elected, we're just going to speak that into existence. Not only would I be the first African American male to ever take the seat in Harrisburg.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Wow.

[Lamont Jones]

Yeah. That's history.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I didn't know that.

[Lamont Jones]

Right. They're going to see a mayor that's focused on reentry. You're going to see a mayor just as you see a councilman roll his sleeves up on the ground, be accessible. You will be able to see at your local grocery store, at your barbershop. You still want to make sure that you have the pulse of your community and that accessibility so you can actually see in real time the issues that people are dealing with. And I think that's what I'm going to be able to bring to the city of Harrisburg. But I don't want to make a career of this. If you fix something, you come into a space and you make it better than it was before you got there, then move on to do something else. You know, I actually get to get into a position similar to Commissioner Douglas to actually have real effect at this.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Point in your political career. Justin, I'm curious how your experience thus far in elected office has changed how you think of your career trajectory. Like, what do you see your next steps or big goals? Or how has the past year in office impacted those future plans?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Man, that's a good question. It's been interesting. I just want to fix things at Dauphin county, but I think I'm Certainly becoming aware of, like, a statewide, national wide need for more leadership. People who are willing to say the bold thing, you know, just kind of say with your chest, like, why are you being safe? I'm reckless that way, though. It's like, I don't know this game and I don't play the game. I'm thoughtful about things I say sometimes, but a lot of times I'm not. A lot of times I'm just unfiltered and I'm who I am. I think we need more of that in politics. I think we just want people who speak plainly to the needs that exist. I've been approached already about running for other offices. That's not something that I want to do right now. That's not something I'm looking at with, like, serious emphasis or time and energy. But I do understand we are in a moment as America, not just Dauphin county, that we need leaders that are gonna fight and I don't know anything else other than being a leader that fights for what's right.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I'm gonna flip this a little bit.

[Joshua Vaughn]

What questions do you guys have for me?

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Or do you have any questions for me?

[Lamont Jones]

During your investigative reporting, which I do commend you on, uncovering a lot of the things that you uncovered, I didn't know until I read a little bit about some of the anxiety and stuff that you experience when you learn some of this information.

[Joshua Vaughn]

A couple years ago, the months and months of reporting on prison deaths really started getting to me. I started having panic attacks. My heart would start racing, I would get agitated. It was really scary. I even checked myself into the ER once. I've been able to get my anxiety under control. But I've talked about it pretty openly, including in my reporting.

[Lamont Jones]

What was it like to uncover some of these things?

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Yeah, I mean, it's heavy. And I mean, I very much, for quite a while, was not dealing with it like I was okay until I wasn't okay. And like I was having heart palpitations and flipping out, panic attacking, genuinely thought that I was dying. So I was in the hospital.

[Lamont Jones]

For me, there's certain things in this job, a lot of my job is not just overseeing or looking at our budget and policy, but also the constituent services and some of the conditions that I see people are living in. And it's hard for me to sleep at night. You know, when I see that and I'm like, that's what makes the fight more worthwhile. But is that kind of what you were experiencing?

[Unknown Speaker 2]

You just feel a responsibility to the people which weighs on you. And then with, like, several years of just living in that space of, like, reading autopsies and talking to people, like, I mean, just get your head in that. And again, I was okay. Until I wasn't okay. I. I think I've gotten a lot better. Gotten a lot better of how to deal with it. I always want to walk the line of, like, that trauma is real and we need to deal with it. But never try to act like the vicarious trauma that I deal with is anything compared to, like, the trauma that, you know, like Nicole Banks or, you know, your family or Jamal Kramell's family or anybody else deals with losing someone or having.

[Lamont Jones]

So was it pressured? Because you, like, once you see people really gravitating to your writings, and it's like, okay, we can trust this guy. You know, I've connected you with several people. Like, hey, you know, I know we don't trust reporters, but this is one that I can trust, and I think you should trust him as well. So was it more so of the pressure? Like, people are depending on me to do this work and get this information accurate.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

What gives me anxiety is, am I doing justice to the people who are actually impacted by it? That's the stuff that absolutely keeps me up at night. It's not just names on a page. These are human beings. There are families. And when they're calling me.

[Lamont Jones]

So it's just not a job.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

It's not a job? Yeah, it's just not a job. I mean, it's more. One of the things that gives me hope as a journalist is seeing local reporters doing this kind of work to expose corruption in jails and the fact that there's an audience and a desire to hear the stories like this that promise change. Do you find that there's a growing interest among community members and constituents to see change happen at the local level?

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I think what you're seeing is you're seeing people are interested in justice. People are interested in accountability. People want leaders that are going to solve the hard problems, that are going to, at the very least, show up to try to solve the hard problems. Right. I think enough people have had experiences with our criminal justice system where the outcome hasn't been justice. Whether it's them a family member or friend that's dealt with it and kind of got a raw deal or had a really bad experience. I think there's a lot of openness to how we reform it to something better.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Do you guys ever get together outside of dcp? Are you friends or do you only hang out whenever the power goes out inside your jail?

[Lamont Jones]

I think our relationship has budded into a real relationship. We see each other occasionally at events, but no, not hanging out. But I think that's something we need to do, you know.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

No, I agree. I mean, every time we see each other, we catch up. I think that the challenges, like Lamont said, like, we both have very, you know, busy jobs. I think, you know, what you described, Josh, is like a calling, you know, I think, I think every. A lot of people have careers. Some people have callings. And I think Lamont and I are definitely have entered into this work less interested in a career path and more interested in a calling to serve people. And I think that means we try to maximize every minute of our day to ensure that we're able to do that work. And I think, you know, I know for a fact that if Lamont needs me, he'll call me and I'll be available. And I know for a fact if I need him, I can call him and he'll be available.

[Lamont Jones]

I think we need to go to Hershey Park.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Yeah, dude, we need to ride some rides together. Let's go.

[Joshua Vaughn]

Let's go.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

This summer we're gonna do it. We're gonna do it this summer.

[Lamont Jones]

I haven't been to Hershey park in years, man, and I'm just a roller coaster freak. I'll go to any park and all I will do is spend my day is riding roller coasters.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I'll have a lot of anxiety, but we'll do it.

[Joshua Vaughn]

Follow Death County, Pa on the Wondry app, Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Death County, Pennsylvania early and ad free by joining Wondry plus in the Wondry app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short [e-mail] survey. If you have a tip about a story you think we should investigate, please write to [e-mail] tips foreign and pennlive. This is a special episode of Death County, Pennsylvania. Death County, Pennsylvania is written and reported by me. Joshua Vaughn. Producer is Rachel Yong. Senior producer is Chris Siegel. Associate producer is Emily Locke. Fact checking by Annika Robbins. Sound design and mixing by Jay Rothman. Sound supervisor is Marcelino Villalpando. Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Frison Sync. Senior managing producer is Lata Pandya. Managing producers are Heather Baloga and Matt Gant. Senior development editor is Rachel B. Doyle. Development producer is Olivia Weber. Executive producers for Advanced Local are Richard diamond and Selena Roberts. Executive producers are n' Hy'jeri Eaton, George Lavender, Marshall Louie and Jen Sargent. For Wondery.