Decoder with Nilay Patel
Episode: Google CEO Sundar Pichai on the Next Phase of AI
Date: May 27, 2025
EPISODE OVERVIEW
In this insightful Decoder tradition, The Verge's Nilay Patel sits down with Google and Alphabet CEO Sundar Pichai for a post-Google I/O discussion. This year, Google’s unveiling of a suite of new AI products and features signifies what Pichai calls a “new phase of the AI platform shift”—one where artificial intelligence moves firmly from research to mass-market reality. With the tech giant’s growing confidence, Nilay and Sundar explore the implications of AI on products, the tech ecosystem, the future of search, the web’s economic dynamics, and the mounting regulatory and competitive pressures Google faces.
KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS
1. Google’s Confident New AI Era
[04:24 – 10:01]
- A research-to-reality transition: Sundar emphasizes Google’s deep expertise in AI and how years of foundational research are now being seamlessly translated into new products for end users.
“It comes from the depth and breadth of the AI frontier we are pushing in a more fundamental and foundational way... how deep we are pushing this frontier and then bringing it to users.” – Sundar Pichai [05:05]
- AI as the most profound platform shift: Pichai distinguishes this moment from previous shifts (like mobile), arguing that AI’s ability for self-improvement magnifies its impact.
“This is the only platform where... the actual platform is over time capable of creating and self improving... much more profound than the other platform shifts.” – Sundar Pichai [06:30]
- Multiplicative power and access: More people than ever will be able to build products—coding, creativity, and development become drastically more accessible.
“The process of creating, developing, etc. is going to be accessible to a much wider swath of humanity than ever before.” – Sundar Pichai [10:01]
2. From Chatbots to Application Layer: Real AI Products
[10:16 – 14:21]
- Beyond chatbots: Coding assistants and vertical-specific AI tools (like in healthcare, legal, and enterprise) represent the visible wave of AI applications, but Pichai says, “We are just in the early stages... you will see it play out over the next three to five years.”
- Return on AI investment: Google sees AI as a horizontal technology impacting all parts of its business, comparing its potential trajectory to Gmail becoming an enterprise suite over time.
“One of the mistakes people make in a period of rapid innovation is think about what is that next big business versus looking at the underlying innovation...” – Sundar Pichai [12:13]
3. The Coming AI Hardware Platform Shift
[15:50 – 20:33]
- XR and smart glasses: Google showcased Android XR and glasses partnerships (Gentle Monster, Warby Parker), signaling an upcoming leap toward ambient computing where assistants are always present and context-aware.
“I'd be shocked if you and I were sitting next year... I wasn't wearing one of [the new smart glasses].” – Sundar Pichai [16:36]
- The legacy of smartphones and PCs: While Jony Ive and other competitors frame the phone and laptop as legacy, Pichai argues different form factors will coexist for years, but “consuming content by pulling out this black glass display rectangle... is not the most intuitive way to do it.” [19:40]
4. AI & Search: The Transformation of the Web
[20:33 – 30:38]
- AI Mode and the evolution of Google Search: New features like AI Mode custom-build search result pages in real time, integrating more interactivity and multimodal responses.
- Web expansion, quality, and content: Despite publisher complaints, Google claims the web is expanding (up 45% in indexed pages over two years), and AI is making content creation and format-conversion “zero friction.”
“When we crawl... the number of web pages available to us... has gone up by 45% in the last two years alone.” – Sundar Pichai [22:11]
- Media ecosystem struggles: Nilay pushes back that, as a platform for media and journalism, the web feels weaker than ever, with would-be publishers turning to platforms like TikTok & YouTube.
"If I was starting The Verge today... We would start a TikTok channel, we might start a YouTube channel. We would definitely not start a website with the dependencies we have..." – Nilay Patel [24:43]
5. Addressing Publisher Backlash and the Traffic Debate
[26:31 – 32:29]
- Publishers' “theft” claims: News publishers allege AI Mode “takes content by force” without economic return.
- Google’s defense: Pichai insists Google is committed to sourcing and sending more traffic to the web than ever, and that the pattern of query growth is consistent with past product transitions.
“No one sends traffic to the web in the way we do... you will see us five years from now sending a lot of traffic out to the web.” – Sundar Pichai [27:51]
“The query growth is continuing to grow over time... it feels very far from a zero sum game to me.” – Sundar Pichai [31:28]
6. Agents and the Web as a Series of Databases
[33:53 – 39:41]
- Agents change the user-service relationship: With AI agents increasingly browsing and acting on users’ behalf, the web might evolve into back-end databases for agents, not visual pages for humans.
“The web is a series of databases... We build a UI on top of it for all of us to conceal.” – Sundar Pichai [35:02]
- The business model challenge: Why would service businesses (Uber, DoorDash) allow themselves to be commoditized as “pipes” for agents to access? Sundar sees analogies to merchants’ acceptance of credit cards: some friction, but market forces drive participation.
“Merchants take credit cards because they see more business as part of taking credit cards than not... You find equilibrium.” – Sundar Pichai [39:00]
7. Regulation, Antitrust, and Political Pressure
[39:41 – 44:04]
- Threats of forced Chrome divestiture: Sundar stands by Chrome’s open-source foundation and commitment, but doesn’t see imminent forced sale.
“I don't think that's the scenario we are looking at... we are going to continue investing and doing our best to innovate and build a successful business in all scenarios.” – Sundar Pichai [40:18]
- Political influence and rankings: Asked if he’d ever change rankings due to Donald Trump’s pressure, Sundar is unequivocal:
"No... I cannot, no person at Google can influence the ranking algorithm and do it.” – Sundar Pichai [41:23]
- System prompt adjustment and AI outputs: Google resists the idea of tweaking AI mode responses for politics, reaffirming its commitment to algorithmic integrity.
“The way we do ranking is sacrosanct to us... we don't look at individual cases and ever change ranking.” – Sundar Pichai [41:54]
8. The Next Phase: Robots & the Physical-AI Merge
[44:14 – 46:04]
- Self-improving AI & robotics as the third phase: Sundar foresees the next leap as AI moving into the physical world, especially general-purpose robotics, referencing breakthroughs like AlphaGo as precursors.
“The next phase of the shift... is when this translates into the physical world through robotics... when AI creates that magical moment with robotics, I think that'll be a big platform shift as well.” – Sundar Pichai [44:17]
NOTABLE QUOTES & MEMORABLE MOMENTS
-
“This is the only platform where... the actual platform is over time capable of creating and self improving... much more profound than the other platform shifts.”
— Sundar Pichai, [06:30] -
“If you were to go and restart Verge again, I bet you would have an extraordinary web presence... But, you know, you know the space. I acknowledge you know that space better than I do.”
— Sundar Pichai, [25:03] -
“[Publishers say] ‘that's the definition of theft.’ ... How do you respond?”
“We are very committed... as a product direction... in the last year it's clear to us the breadth of where we are sending people to is increasing.”
— Nilay Patel & Sundar Pichai, [26:31–27:09] -
“No person at Google can influence the ranking algorithm and do it.”
— Sundar Pichai, [41:23]
TIMESTAMPS FOR IMPORTANT SEGMENTS
- Google’s post-I/O confidence and the AI platform shift: [04:24 – 10:01]
- Products beyond chatbots and the commercialization of AI: [10:16 – 14:21]
- Smart glasses, XR, and the hardware platform transition: [15:50 – 20:33]
- How AI changes search and the web: [20:33 – 30:38]
- Publisher backlash and the debate over web traffic: [26:31 – 32:29]
- Agents, service commoditization, and business model shifts: [33:53 – 39:41]
- Antitrust, Chrome, and political pressure: [39:41 – 44:04]
- Where is AI heading? Robotics and the next phase: [44:14 – 46:04]
FINAL THOUGHTS
This Decoder episode is an essential listen for anyone watching the AI revolution unfold. Pichai’s candor about Google’s strategies, his nuanced view of AI’s impact on the web and business, and his defense of Google’s stewardship of both technology and societal values make this conversation rich in insight, optimism, and controversy. Whether you’re a publisher, developer, policymaker, or consumer, this episode offers a clear-eyed look at the opportunities and tensions shaping our AI future.