Decoder with Nilay Patel (Guest Host: Joanna Stern)
Episode: Rivian CEO: "We're really convicted" about skipping CarPlay
Date: October 6, 2025
Summary by Expert Podcast Summarizer
Episode Overview
In this episode of Decoder, guest host Joanna Stern sits down with RJ Scaringe, CEO and founder of Rivian, an American electric vehicle manufacturer. The conversation dives into Rivian’s expansion plans (particularly the new R2 model), the company’s strategic decisions around technology and manufacturing, the state of the EV market, U.S.-China trade tensions, and the controversial decision not to include CarPlay in Rivian vehicles. The episode is lively and insightful, blending Stern’s personal car-leasing dilemma and consumer perspective with broader, nuanced industry analysis.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Rivian’s Product Evolution and Brand Vision
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Product Lineup Expansion:
- Rivian began with the R1 (truck – R1T and SUV – R1S), with an average transaction price around $90,000.
- The upcoming R2 (starting at $45,000, launching first half of 2026) aims to make Rivian accessible to more buyers.
- R2 is smaller and cheaper but maintains the brand’s focus on active lifestyles and thoughtful design (“It’s the first product that’ll take us from a flagship…to something that is broadly accessible in terms of pricing.” RJ Scaringe, 05:28).
- Future products (R3, R4) will further broaden the lineup.
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Design Approach & Audience:
- RJ emphasizes diverse demographics, with special appeal to families thanks to features and capacity.
- Rivian commands 35% market share for premium electric SUVs in the U.S., outselling competitors like Tesla Model X, Cadillac, and GMC in its segment, especially in California and Washington (09:23).
2. Market Strategy and Competition
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Expanding Beyond the Coastal/Wealthy Niche:
- R2 is pivotal for reaching past affluent urban markets and achieving higher volumes.
- Confidence in brand growth, citing top Consumer Reports ratings for brand appeal and repurchase intent since 2021 (11:47).
- “If we can take even a fraction of the market share success…to the mass market product, the R2, even a fraction of that, we’d be really happy.” (12:44)
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Global Competition, Especially from China:
- Chinese automakers like BYD exert substantial influence on the global EV space, even without U.S. sales.
- Cost advantages in China arise from lower labor costs, cheap/free plants, and raw materials, making tariffs almost inevitable for protectionism (14:25).
- Chinese brands (and newer EV-only makers like Rivian and Tesla) have a technological advantage due to clean-sheet, software-first approaches.
3. Tech Stack, Manufacturing, and Vertical Integration
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Software and Electronics:
- Full in-house development enables flexibility, rapid updates, and underpins the $5.8 billion software licensing deal with Volkswagen (16:00).
- Legacy automakers struggle to catch up due to older, more outsourced tech architectures.
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Manufacturing & Tariffs:
- R2 benefits from “U.S.-centric” supply chains, intentionally built to minimize China dependency due to changing geopolitics (22:05).
- “We have built a US-centric supply chain…changes in trade policy do add cost. But we’ve been able to be quite planful around that.” (22:39).
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Navigating Political Turbulence:
- Despite manufacturing in the U.S., Rivian still faces tariffs and changes to EV tax credits.
- Scaringe tries to keep Rivian “depoliticized” and notes support from both major U.S. parties for domestic EV manufacturing (24:00).
4. Economic Headwinds and Profitability Challenges
- Shift to Profitability:
- Pandemic challenges, supply chain crises, and rare earths shortages have hampered profitability.
- Positive gross margin in late 2024 and early 2025, but a “tough quarter” due to rare earth export restrictions.
- Confidence that R2’s scale will drive profitability: “Scale is a really important part…once you get to that scale, that vertical integration creates a structurally advantaged cost structure.” (29:00)
5. Customer Experience and Product Feedback
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Real-World Use:
- Joanna shares her own test-drive of the R1S, including her 4-year-old’s comically persistent concern with a flat tire (“Why did we get a flat tire, Rivian man?” 32:18).
- Positive note on Rivian’s customer service.
- Key card and phone-as-key preferences discussed with a focus on practical user experience (32:49).
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Mapping & Infotainment Updates:
- Criticism of in-vehicle maps; subsequently improved via direct collaboration with Google for new mapping (34:53).
- Infotainment system now Android-based but still largely Rivian’s in-house development (35:28).
6. CarPlay: Rivian’s Stand and the Road Ahead
- CarPlay Decision:
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Rivian does NOT offer CarPlay and stands by that decision.
- “We definitely don’t hate CarPlay…We wanted to have a seamless digital experience and not have the need to jump between CarPlay… and what we create as a Rivian environment.” (39:56)
- Focus is on direct integration of key apps (YouTube, Spotify, Google Maps, Apple Music, etc.) while keeping the digital environment unified.
- The integration is crucial as Rivian plans to make its AI and digital assistant features tightly connected with all vehicle systems.
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Recognition of Potential Lost Sales:
- “For some folks, that means they’re not going to buy a Rivian. We accept that...our job is to have convictions around the decisions we’re making” (41:21).
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Tighter Apple Integration:
- “We have a great relationship with Apple…Apple Music was the first demonstration of that. But there’s a lot more coming…messaging, vehicle access, [Apple] Watch, Ultra Wideband…” (42:49)
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7. Autonomy, AI, and the Future of Driving
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Self-Driving Roadmap:
- Rivian is shifting from a classic rules-based autonomy stack to building a large end-to-end neural network (“foundation model for driving”) enabled by its own sensors and compute platform (43:50).
- Stepped product roadmap:
- Current: Highway hands-off (with eyes on road).
- 2026: Hands-off, eyes on road everywhere, with navigation.
- 2027: Hands-off, eyes-off on highways.
- 2030s: Full self-driving expected to become the default for new cars.
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Sensor Philosophy:
- NOT ruling out LiDAR (unlike Tesla). Emphasis on having a rich, multi-sensor approach for the best learning and accuracy (48:57).
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Notable Quote:
- “The entirety of the science community believes that having multiple sensors is helpful because you build a more accurate view of the world.” (48:57)
8. Reliability Concerns and Final Thoughts
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Addressing Reliability:
- Ranked last by Consumer Reports for reliability, which RJ acknowledges.
- Rapid improvements are ongoing; R2 expected to dramatically benefit from learnings and process fixes since launching R1.
- Customer satisfaction ranked #1 despite higher service requests early on (51:57).
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Closing Remarks:
- Stern and her son both enjoyed the vehicle and customer service, despite the flat tire.
- RJ conveys optimism about R2 and Rivian's trajectory.
Notable Quotes & Timestamps
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On Rivian’s Brand Vision:
“We wanted to build a brand around enabling active lifestyles…capture those same brand elements [in R2]…start to be broadly accessible in terms of pricing.”
— RJ Scaringe, (05:28) -
On Expanding Market Share:
“In California and the state of Washington, we’re the best selling premium SUV, electric or non electric.”
— RJ Scaringe, (09:23) -
On Chinese Competition:
“Either you’ll see tariffs go in place or requirements that those vehicles are produced locally, where a lot of those cost advantages go away.”
— RJ Scaringe, (15:00) -
On Software and Tech Licensing:
“We did a $5.8 billion software licensing deal…with Volkswagen…to deploy it across their vehicles globally.”
— RJ Scaringe, (16:00) -
On CarPlay Decision:
“We wanted to have a seamless digital experience and not have the need to jump between CarPlay… and what we create as a Rivian environment…we’re really convicted on this.”
— RJ Scaringe, (39:56) -
On Autonomy:
“We’re taking all this data and…we use that to feed the training of a large parameter model…a neural net of how to drive a vehicle.”
— RJ Scaringe, (43:50) -
On LiDAR vs. Cameras:
“The entirety of the science community believes that having multiple sensors is helpful…you build a more accurate view of the world.”
— RJ Scaringe, (48:57) -
On Reliability:
“We had the number one level of customer satisfaction…imagine if our reliability gets to best in class coupled with all the product attributes. And so that’s our goal.”
— RJ Scaringe, (51:57)
Important Segments & Timestamps
- Product & Brand Evolution: 05:00 – 13:00
- Market Strategy & Competition: 13:00 – 17:30
- Tariffs & Trade Policy: 21:05 – 27:00
- Profitability & Economic Pressures: 28:20 – 31:36
- Real-World Usage and Customer Experience: 31:42 – 34:23
- Tech Stack & Mapping Updates: 34:53 – 35:44
- CarPlay Discussion: 39:31 – 42:56
- EV Autonomy and AI: 43:00 – 51:39
- Reliability and Closing: 51:39 – End
Tone & Style
Joanna Stern brings an inquisitive, consumer-focused, and slightly playful tone (e.g., referring to RJ Scaringe as “Rivian man” to her 4-year-old), while RJ Scaringe keeps responses detailed, analytical, and candid about both achievements and challenges.
For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In
This episode provides a comprehensive, candid look at how a leading U.S. EV manufacturer is navigating the crucible of rapid industry change: introducing more affordable products, embracing vertical integration, weathering geopolitical storms, and making tough calls on consumer tech (like CarPlay) to set themselves apart. RJ Scaringe’s technical depth, combined with Joanna Stern’s practical questioning, makes this an excellent listen for anyone curious about the intersection of technology, policy, and the future of cars.