Decoder with Nilay Patel — Sir Tim Berners-Lee Doesn’t Think AI Will Destroy the Web

Date: November 10, 2025
Host: Nilay Patel (The Verge)
Guest: Sir Tim Berners-Lee (Inventor of the World Wide Web, CTO and co-founder of Inrupt)

Episode Overview

In this rich and forward-looking conversation, Nilay Patel sits down with Sir Tim Berners-Lee, inventor of the World Wide Web, to examine the state and future of the web in a fast-moving era defined by platform centralization and the explosive growth of AI. They explore whether the web’s founding ideals—openness, interoperability, user agency—can survive or even be reborn as AI redefines both the information and application layers of the internet. Berners-Lee shares perspectives on AI’s potential, worries about monopoly power, the impact of closed platforms, the architecture of user control, and his ongoing work at Inrupt to restore the web’s original spirit.

Key Discussion Points

The Shift from Open Web to Closed Platforms

• Rise of Platforms Over the Open Web (06:20–09:40):

  • Patel reflects on how launching a website—once the only choice for digital publishing—is now often replaced by starting a video channel or using closed “walled gardens.”
  • Berners-Lee notes that while much content still ends up on the web, major platforms incentivize use of apps for better tracking and control.
  • Podcasts are cited as an example of the open model, but tension remains: “If people end up on the app and then being tracked and not using the podcast app, they’re not. So all that tension is huge right now for the web.” (06:20)

• Centralization and Monopolies (08:26–09:40):

  • Discusses “digital sovereignty”—the empowerment of individuals on the web.
  • Berners-Lee states: “In the old days of the early days of the web, anybody used to be able to make a website. That feeling of sovereignty as an individual…that is what we are still fighting for and we need to rebuild.” (09:11)

"This Is For Everyone": The Heart of the Web

• Origin of the Phrase (09:58):

  • Stemming from the 2012 London Olympics, the phrase “This Is For Everyone” encapsulates the web’s ideal: openness and universal participation.
  • “That was a way of really encapsulating what was most important about the web.” (09:58)

• Platform CEO Arguments vs. Openness (10:44):

  • Platform CEOs claim closed platforms enable more people to express themselves.
  • Berners-Lee pushes back, highlighting addictive algorithms and lack of user respect on platforms like TikTok:
    • “When you have such great power as…a dominant player like TikTok, then you have a lot of responsibility.” (11:31)

Standards, Competition, and the Loss of Collective Stewardship

• Early Web Collaboration (12:21–13:51):

  • Berners-Lee recalls convincing companies to adopt open standards—“If we had many little webs, they would each one die. So I think people realized…if they made it one web, then one web would take off, would become huge…” (13:04)

• Could Collective Stewardship Happen Again for AI? (13:55):

  • There’s “no W3C for AI.” Berners-Lee muses about the need for a CERN-like global lab for AI, but sees little appetite for constraint among today’s AI giants. “I think it’s really hard. I don’t see it happening.” (15:05)

Commercialization, Power, and Market Failures

• Marc Andreessen and The Web’s Commercialization (15:11–16:41):
  • Berners-Lee clarifies he’s not against commercialization: “Advertising has been a really important part of it…Subscription models, lots of different business models I think has always been important for the web.” (15:39)
  • Still, he recognizes challenges convincing powerful contemporary figures to prioritize collaboration.

AI's Impact: From New Browser Wars to Web Monetization

• AI-Powered Browsers: Innovation or Disruption? (17:13–18:48):

  • Patel frames new “agentic” browsers (OpenAI’s Atlas, Chrome’s AI features) as a renaissance.
  • Berners-Lee is excited but cautions: “If people are not using search engines, they’re not actually using the websites, then we lose that flow of ad revenue. So that whole model crumbles. So I do worry about that.” (18:10)

• Web as Information vs. Application Platform (23:33–25:04):

  • Patel: The open web is declining as an information platform, while thriving as an application platform.
  • Berners-Lee: AI can provide value only if it has access to personal data, not just public data. “An AI which does that is much more powerful…but without that ability…you know, like your doctor or your lawyer…then the AIs which work for you are going to be a really important part of the scenery.” (25:04)

The Data Wallet Model and User Control

• AI Agency vs. Platform Power (26:29–32:26):
  • Berners-Lee describes a vision where user-owned data wallets empower AIs to work on users’ behalf.
  • On shifting business models (e.g., disintermediating platforms like DoorDash):
    • “If there’s more value to the user, then generally the markets find ways of arranging incentives.” (27:26)
  • The path toward fully “local first” AI and data remains blocked by habit and lack of market demand: “There’s a real disconnect between what people say they want and what they actually look for in the market.” (31:30)

Privacy, Interoperability, and Regulation

• Market Forces vs. Regulation (36:25–36:48):

  • Berners-Lee: “I can’t see it happening with market forces.” Regulations (especially in Europe) may be needed for interoperability and user empowerment. (36:31)

• Uncertainty Around Global Regulation (37:14–37:45):

  • The rapid pace of AI evolution makes effective regulation difficult.
    • “Changing so fast, I think it’s really hard to tell which way things will go in that way.” (37:14)

Semantic Web and Generative AI

• Has the Vision of the Semantic Web Been Achieved? (39:41–41:52):
  • The original vision was a machine-readable, interoperable data web.
  • Berners-Lee: “To a certain extent…AI solves that problem of conversion of non semantic data into semantic data. Yes, maybe we’ll be in for an exciting time of some of the interoperability that we were looking for from the Semantic Web being available.” (41:52)
  • However, Patel notes, this is often extractive and lacks the negotiated consent/persuasion that underpinned the early Semantic Web push.

The Social Contract, Power, and the Architecture of Control

• Extraction vs. Persuasion (45:22–49:17):
  • Patel: Early web norms encouraged persuasion and user choice. AI companies now tend toward data extraction.
  • Berners-Lee: Technology could support more negotiated, regulated data access: “It would be certainly technically possible to design and build that system whether you’d get anybody using it.” (47:10)
  • Centralized providers (e.g., Cloudflare) blocking AI crawlers creates new power centers—Berners-Lee cautions: “Of course, I don’t feel a centralized provider at any level…is good for the Web.” (50:41)

Browser Competition and Mobile's Gatekeepers

• Browser Wars and the Remaining Monopolies (51:48–53:51):

  • Most new browsers use Chromium, and innovation at the browser engine layer is stuck.
  • Berners-Lee: “It would be nice if there were more than one browser engine around…But it’s a big thing to build…” (52:36)
  • On Apple’s restrictions on WebKit: “Allow Chrome to run…on iPhone sounds like a good move.” (53:51)

• Mobile as the Next Battleground (54:12–56:59):

  • Powerful browsers on mobile could shift the open/closed platform power balance.
  • “I think more powerful browser on the iPhone would change that dynamic.” (55:58)
  • Yet, Berners-Lee admits he reads “serious” content on a laptop: mobile web is still limited in capability and openness compared to desktop.

Inrupt, Solid, and the Future

• What is Inrupt/Solid? (57:10):
  • Inrupt builds secure, scalable, enterprise-ready “data wallets” based on the Solid protocol—giving users control over their data.
  • Partnerships include BBC, the Flanders government, and ongoing work with Visa to align agentic commerce with privacy and user control.
  • Tools aren’t yet consumer-grade but are developer-ready, with progress expected in a year or so.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 09:11 | Sir Tim Berners-Lee | “That feeling of sovereignty as an individual being enabled and being a peer with all the other people on the web, that is what we are still fighting for and we need to rebuild.” | | 11:31 | Sir Tim Berners-Lee | “When you have such great power as you're a dominant player like TikTok, then you have a lot of responsibility. You have a responsibility to all the people on it that you respect them.” | | 13:04 | Sir Tim Berners-Lee | “If we had many little webs, they would each one die. So I think people realized…if they made it one web, then one web would take off…” | | 15:05 | Sir Tim Berners-Lee | “I think it’s really hard. I don’t see it happening.” (On getting all major AI players to agree on standards.) | | 18:10 | Sir Tim Berners-Lee | “I do worry about that. If people are not using search engines, they’re not actually using the websites, then we lose that flow of ad revenue.” | | 25:04 | Sir Tim Berners-Lee | “Without that ability to access your behalf, without promising to work on your best interests…then the AIs which work for you are going to be a really important part of the scene.” | | 31:30 | Nilay Patel | “There’s a real disconnect between what people say they want and what they actually look for in the market.” | | 36:31 | Sir Tim Berners-Lee | “I can’t see it happening with market forces.” (On whether user control and interoperability will come without regulation.)| | 41:52 | Sir Tim Berners-Lee | “Maybe we’ll be in for an exciting time of some of the things the interoperability that we were looking for from the Semantic Web being available.” | | 50:41 | Sir Tim Berners-Lee | “Of course, I don’t feel a centralized provider at any level…is good for the Web.” |

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 05:19 — Opening on closed platforms, YouTube vs. podcasts, and the erosion of the open web
• 09:40 — “This Is For Everyone” and Tim’s vision for digital agency
• 12:21 — How early web standards were forged and why that may be impossible today
• 17:13 — The new “browser wars” and how AI-powered browsers may disrupt established models
• 25:04 — Berners-Lee’s vision for user data wallets and “agentic” personal AIs
• 36:31 — Interoperability, market forces, and why regulation may be essential
• 39:41 — Has the Semantic Web’s vision been realized through AI, or perverted?
• 47:10 — Extraction vs. persuasion, robots.txt, and the power of Cloudflare
• 51:48 — Browser engine monopolies, Chromium vs. WebKit, and mobile’s role
• 57:10 — What Inrupt is and how it seeks to empower users through data wallets

Closing Thoughts

Berners-Lee remains guardedly optimistic about the possibility of reclaiming the web’s openness and user agency, but sees major obstacles in monopolistic platforms, lack of collective industry stewardship, extractive AI, and the inertia of consumer behavior. Ultimately, he frames the next chapter as a test of whether users, technologists, and policymakers can collaborate—through new standards, market incentives, and perhaps regulation—to ensure the web remains, as he wrote in 2012, “for everyone.”

For more:

• Learn about Sir Tim’s work at Inrupt: solidproject.org
• Book: This Is For Everyone by Sir Tim Berners-Lee

This summary covers the essential ideas, memorable moments, and flow of the conversation for those who want a full and nuanced understanding of the episode’s themes and arguments.