A Taylor Swift whiz helps us decode Opalite’s unexpectedly deep meaning

Summary

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Decoding Taylor Swift – Episode Summary

Podcast: Decoding Taylor Swift
Hosts: Joe Romm and Toni Romm
Episode: A Taylor Swift whiz helps us decode Opalite’s unexpectedly deep meaning
Date: October 28, 2025
Special Guest: Charlie Harding (Co-host, Switched On Pop)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into Taylor Swift’s hit song “Opalite,” exploring its layered metaphors, cultural significance, and songwriting brilliance. Special guest, Charlie Harding—music journalist, songwriter, professor, and co-host of Switched On Pop—joins Joe and Toni Romm in an extensive discussion. The hosts and Charlie uncover the storytelling tools Taylor Swift uses that position her as a modern-day Shakespeare and how these tools can inspire effective, viral communication.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Surface and Subsurface Meaning of "Opalite"

• Opalite as a Metaphor (01:19-02:00)

  • Toni: Points out Opalite is man-made, not fully blue—symbolizing that happiness isn’t always given but can be created, like “making your own breaks in the clouds.”
  • The stone itself becomes a metaphor for reinventing oneself and finding joy.

• Critique of “Trad Wife” Interpretations (02:20-03:58)

  • Joe: Pushes back on the idea that Swift’s lyrics reveal her literal self, emphasizing the “show” quality of Taylor’s persona.
  • Joe: “You can't take a quote from Taylor in one of her songs and say that she believes that. These are all... this is a show, right?” (02:40)
  • Many of Taylor’s references—to women like Elizabeth Taylor or archetypes like “the showgirl”—are layers of performance, not autobiography.

2. Lyric Deep Dive: Self-Referential Humor & Recognizing Patterns

• Self-awareness & Recurring Themes (04:06-06:17)

  • Lyrics about “eating out of the trash” (on reusing old relationships) show Taylor’s humor and self-reference.
  • Toni: Connects lyrics to previous songs, like “The Archer,” noting the cyclical nature of friendships and relationships in Swift’s world.

• On Interpretation (05:00-06:17)

  • Toni: “There's not one interpretation of them. Just like how... there's not one interpretation of life.”

3. The Chorus: Metaphor and New Motifs

• Opalite and Self-Made Happiness (06:54-07:21)

  • The chorus juxtaposes “Onyx Night” with “sky is Opalite,” extending the stone metaphor (light breaking through darkness).
  • Joe: Notes unusual personal references—mentions of her brother and mother, but not her father.

• Gender, Relationships, and “Fixer-Uppers” (07:36-10:18)

  • Lighthearted banter about gender roles, referencing Taylor’s lyric “never made no one like you before.”
  • Toni: Jokes about “fixing men” and laments societal norms around male emotional intelligence.

4. Story Structure: The Double Hero’s Journey

• Both Sides Grow (10:32-11:07)
  • Joe: “Opalite really has a lot going on in it, including the hero's journey stories.”
  • The song is framed as a dual hero’s journey—both figures grow before uniting, teaching listeners about storytelling and transformation.

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[12:13] Interview with Charlie Harding (Switched On Pop)

A. Taylor Swift as Performer and Prosodic Storyteller

• “Show” Album Framing (14:59-16:58)
  • Charlie: Emphasizes the performative structure: “She is showing us with her text that things are not exactly as they seem.”
  • References to Hamlet’s “play within a play” and breaking the fourth wall in music videos highlight Swift’s literary self-awareness.
  • Charlie: “Her songs are about capturing an emotion, a feeling that you can read into... she's willing to trick us.” (15:36-19:28)

B. Songwriting Craft: Pop Structure, Metaphor, and Worldbuilding

• Musical Makeup of “Opalite” (21:39-24:38)

  • Charlie: Compares “Opalite” to Billie Eilish’s “Birds of a Feather”—both are the “pop song” of their respective concept albums.
  • The song’s familiar chord progression (the “ice cream changes” or 50s progression) gives it a timeless, girl group feel, reminiscent of The Ronettes’ “Be My Baby.”
  • Charlie: “Those chords are called ice cream changes... very throwback, Motown era or throwback 50s, 60s girl group vibe.” (23:07-24:13)

• Opalite as Metaphor (24:45-26:16)

  • Joe: “Opalite is a man made opal. And happiness can also be man made too. So that's sort of what she's singing about is you have to make your own happiness.”
  • Charlie & Nate: Praise the originality of the opalite metaphor—unique, memorable, and instantly evocative.

• Rhyme & Melody as Structural Tools (28:07-29:36)

  • Charlie: Taylor’s songwriting is “a game where she's inventing melody and rhythm and rhyme and then constructing narrative from that metaphor.”

C. The Max Martin Influence

• Inside Max Martin’s Pop Genius (29:36-34:45)
  • Charlie: Describes Max Martin’s “melodic math” approach—balancing repetition and variation, conceptual clarity, and hooks.
  • Nate: “He will repeat something up until the point until your ear knows it, and then he's going to change.”
  • Taylor’s partnership with Martin/Shellback is a masterclass in combining meticulous pop songcraft with autobiography and metaphor.

D. Polyphonic Autofiction & Literary References

• Layered Authorship (37:34-38:29)

  • Charlie: “That's why I called it... polyphonic autofiction. She's often also drawing on other characters, whether there are other versions of herself or other characters like Kitty or Ophelia.”
  • References Walt Whitman: “I contain multitudes.”
  • Joe: Parallels with Shakespeare: “If anyone contains multitudes... it is definitely Taylor.” (38:05)

• Songwriting Constraints: Form Shapes Content (38:36-44:58)

  • Taylor, like Shakespeare, uses structural constraints (rhythm, melody, rhyme) to craft lyrics—a process that forces creativity, requires puzzle-solving, and distances the words from literal autobiography.
  • Antihero is cited as a prime example of using melody and repeated stresses for emotional and memorable effect.

E. Bravery in Referencing and Rewriting the Literary Canon

• Taylor’s “Ballsy” Literary Moves (46:40-49:24)
  • Joe: Marvels at Swift’s boldness in reimagining Hamlet and Romeo & Juliet: “She has a big dick. It is ballsy to rewrite... the most famous play ever written... She’s rewritten both.”
  • Charlie: “Because we have to see ourselves in our pop stars... I think it's a really fun way of putting yourself in history, putting yourself in music history, claiming space.”

F. The “I Was Wrong” Line & Song’s Irony

• Interpretation of Key Lyric (56:12-59:42)
  • Joe: Fixates on Taylor’s “I was wrong” lyric, suggesting its ironical framing—questioning surface interpretations and emphasizing self-reflection and transformative journeys.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You can't take a quote from Taylor in one of her songs and say that she believes that... These are all... this is a show, right?”
  — Joe (02:40)

• “Her songs are about capturing an emotion, a feeling that you can read into... she's willing to trick us.”
  — Charlie Harding (15:36)

• “This song employing this chord progression is also very throwback. It has a sort of Motown era or throwback 50s, 60s girl group vibe.”
  — Charlie Harding (24:13)

• “Opalite is a man made opal. And happiness can also be man made too. So that's sort of what she's singing about–you have to make your own happiness.”
  — Joe (24:45)

• “That's why I called it... polyphonic autofiction. She's often also drawing on other characters, whether there are other versions of herself or other characters like Kitty or Ophelia.”
  — Charlie Harding (37:55)

• “If anyone contains multitudes... it is definitely Taylor.”
  — Joe (38:05)

• “She's rewritten both [Hamlet and Romeo & Juliet]. That's like, okay, Shakespeare, you like tragedies. I love your stories. I just like happy endings.”
  — Joe (47:30)

• “Life is a song, it ends when it ends. Ooh, that's a gut punch line.”
  — Nate Sloan (40:35)

• “Failure brings you freedom. I think is the powerful line in this song... The lowest point in your life is the thing that sets you free.”
  — Joe (58:00)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00 — Episode intro, Joe and Toni set the context for “Opalite”
• 01:19 — Toni’s metaphorical reading of Opalite
• 02:40 — Discussion: Taylor’s lyrics-as-performance, not personal confession
• 04:06 — Deep dive into lyrics (eating out of the trash, past lovers)
• 06:54 — Analyzing the chorus; Opalite as a symbol of crafted happiness
• 10:32 — Storytelling: Opalite’s “double hero’s journey”
• 12:13 — Charlie Harding interview begins
• 14:59 — Album framing and the “showgirl” conceit
• 23:07 — Musical structure: the throwback and timeless appeal
• 24:45 — Unique Opalite metaphor discussion
• 29:36 — Max Martin’s songwriting method
• 37:34 — Polyphonic autofiction; Swift’s world-building
• 40:35 — The “life is a song” lyric and its impact
• 46:40 — Taylor as a reinterpreter of literary tradition
• 56:12 — Reflecting on the “I was wrong” lyric; thematic irony

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Summary Takeaways for Non-Listeners

• “Opalite” isn’t just a romantic tribute or a literal diary entry—it’s a layered performance that draws on Swift’s skill with metaphor, musical structure, and literary allusions.
• The episode critiques reductive readings of Swift’s work (“trad wife”, confessionality), instead framing her work as auto-fictional, performative, and deeply intentional.
• Taylor’s partnership with Max Martin and use of classic pop progressions serve timelessness and instant familiarity, while her lyric choices (e.g., Opalite) introduce novel metaphors into the pop canon.
• Charlie Harding helps decode how Taylor’s storytelling tools (world-building, structured rhyme, narrative puzzle-solving) make her as influential a communicator as Shakespeare, with lessons for anyone hoping to connect, lead, or create viral content.
• The episode challenges surface interpretations, urging deeper, more ironic readings of lines like “life is a song” and “I was wrong”—the latter serving as a pivotal moment of vulnerability and transformation.
• In sum: “Opalite,” and by extension Swift’s work, is best read as deliberate, multi-layered art—born out of pop tradition, literary ambition, and personal reinvention.

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For further depth in Swift’s lyricism, pop songwriting structure, and modern mythmaking, this episode stands as a masterclass—with actionable storytelling insights for the listener.

Transcript

[Joe Rome]

Hi. This is Decoding Taylor Swift Season 2, where we're digging into the deeper meaning of the life of a showgirl. Week by week, track by track. Today we discuss the number two song in America, Opalite, with Taylor Swift expert Charlie Harding. I'm Joe Rome, a storytelling Swiftie and lyrics detective.

[Tony]

I'm Tony. I'm his daughter, and I'm aspiring annoying English class participant.

[Joe Rome]

I think you aspire to more than.

[Tony]

That and I guess I already am that.

[Joe Rome]

Yes, you already are that. But really the star of this show and very excited to announce. Today is Sunday the 26th, and we just hit the top 200 trending podcast list on Spotify.

[Tony]

We do appreciate it.

[Joe Rome]

Streams have, like, exploded. So, yes, we really do appreciate you. And today Tony and I are going to talk about Opalite and then we're going to hear from a really extended interview with a great music expert, super.

[Tony]

Duper smart guy, really, Charlie Harding, about.

[Joe Rome]

From the award winning podcast Switched on Pop. And after that, you want to stick around because I'm going to drop the real deeper meaning of Opalite is. But let's dive in with Tony. What do you think? What do you think of this song?

[Tony]

Well, I think that there is a lot under the surface of this song. I've been thinking about it, you know, ever since I've listened to it. One thing that I think is important to point out is that Opalite is a man made stone. Right? Yeah. And it's not all the way blue. Right. When somebody says the sky is Opalite, they mean that there are some clouds, but it's, it's, you know, clearing up. You can make your own, you know, happiness. You can make your own breaks in the clouds. I think that's in this on the, you know, kind of the slightly deeper than the surface meaning. I think going even deeper than that. You know, you had a great conversation with Charles and I was not there for that because I was still sick at college, I think.

[Joe Rome]

And you got your midterms. This is midterms.

[Tony]

I did my midterms. You guys. You guys, I officially can't drop out. I'm in too deep because now I have to know what I got on my midterms. So I can't drop out between now and then. But I also dyed my hair there. Right there. I'm sorry. But I also think that. I think that a lot of. I just want to take a moment and talk about a little criticism that Taylor's been getting for being kind of like, you know, trad Wifey in this new album. So, like, there's more under the surface than you would think. That's the criticism she's always gotten. Right. She's just kind of a pop singer. She doesn't have, like, deeper meaning.

[Joe Rome]

Can I say one of the points that we made in the second and third episodes is that you can't take a quote from Taylor in one of her songs and say that she believes that.

[Stephanie Megan]

Right.

[Joe Rome]

These are all.

[Tony]

That's the other thing. Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

This is a show, right? This is a show. She says so. And this is something Charlie Harding and I talk a lot about, which, because he strongly believes this, that this is sort of auto fiction, right? This is her. She's just trying to leave an emotional impression. So to say that she's acting like a trad wife is to say, I'm taking some of the lyrics in her songs and saying that's her. And yet at the same time, she's also like Elizabeth Taylor, who obviously wasn't a trad wife. So. And then she's like a showgirl, right? And then she's like Ophelia, and then she's like this and that. So you. I think people are making a mistake if they selectively look at a few lyrics, literally, and say, oh, that's proof that this is what Taylor Swift's identity is. Right? She is performing. And look, this is the number two song in America. And the fate of Ophelia is the number one song.

[Tony]

She's like a working woman. She has talent. She's not really a trad wife.

[Joe Rome]

Let's dive into the lyrics.

[Tony]

Yeah, we can dive into the lyrics.

[Joe Rome]

I had a bad habit of missing lovers past My brother used to call it Eating out of the trash it's never gonna last I thought my house was haunted I used to live with ghosts and all the perfect couples said when you know, you know and when you don'. You don't. Right? So the point is, she's making fun of herself a bit. I mean, to say her brother called. The fact that she obsesses with, you know, her old boyfriends, which is what she does for a living, right, Is eating out of the trash.

[Tony]

And so reusing old boyfriends, you know, breaking up, going back to them.

[Joe Rome]

Right? So again and then. And all the foes and all the friends have seen it before, they'll see it again.

[Tony]

Right? And that's referencing. Well, hold on, because that's referencing one of my favorite Taylor Swift songs. The archer, the character in that song talks about how I know all of her enemies Started out friends. The problems with relationships inherently is that when there's big emotions, there's a large chance for, you know, heartbreak. There's a large chance, you know, animosity. It's very easy to develop animosity and mixed feelings. You know, all of the foes and all of the friends. She. She's probably referencing her ex lovers. You know, they've seen it before and they'll see it again. Life is a song. It ends when it ends all. I think you guys, in your discussion, not to preempt, you talked about what you thought about the life is a song bit. I would like to add a different layer before we go into the discussion by just saying there are a lot of lines like that. In popular culture, life could be a dream. In BoJack Horseman, it's life is a bitch. And then you d. And, you know, life is a box of chocolates, obviously, from. From Forrest Gump. The way that her songs have been, you know, taken, retaken. You know, people like them. They don't like them. They're. They're art. You know, they're. There's not. They're not. There's not one interpretation of them. Just like how. There's not one interpretation of life. You know, you can just say shit about life. It's a song. It ends when it ends, you know.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah, well, and we'll come back after we hear what Charlie has to say about it. We'll come back at the end because I think there's a. I think that is an important line. Let's get to the chorus. But mama told me it's all right. You were dancing through the lightning strikes? Sleepless in the onyx night? But now the sky is opalite? Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, my lord? Never made no one like you before. You had to make very important. Yes, you had to make your own sunshine. But now the sky is opalite. Oh, oh, oh, oh.

[Tony]

It's actually not oh, oh, oh, it's oah, oh, oh.

[Joe Rome]

So, yeah, so this song is very metaphorical. And she said that she liked opalite as a metaphor because it was man made and you have to make your own happiness. Right. And it's interesting, she's quoted her brother and her mother. I don't think she's ever done that before.

[Tony]

But she's not quoted her dad in this song.

[Joe Rome]

True.

[Tony]

Another noticeable absence of a father, which my dad really likes to obsess over as a father himself.

[Joe Rome]

But it's interesting that she says, Never made. Never made no one like you before. Even though in the next verses she says, never met. And this is something we also discussed with Charlie. Do you have a quick take on that?

[Tony]

Yeah, I think that never made no one like you before. I'm gonna be honest. A current member of the dating community dealing with men, in part, I think that you have to fix them a little bit. Like, they don't come perfectly together. And even though Travis Kelce seems great, he seems like a great guy. Obviously he has a huge penis, which is great for her, I think, but size doesn't matter generally. That's my. That's my opinion. That's one of my woke opinions, you guys, is that, you know, it's about the motion of the ocean, not the size.

[Joe Rome]

Well, she also has a big dick. She says in Father Figure.

[Tony]

She does have a big dick. And moving on from discussing penises with my father. A lot of men are raised in a way that is not. Does not create emotionally intelligent beings these days.

[Joe Rome]

Well, look, men. Look, let me speak a little. Yeah, Men are not.

[Tony]

Are you silencing women?

[Joe Rome]

No, I'm trying to explain.

[Tony]

I'm just joshing. He gets mad when I make fun of him for being a man. But that's not your fault, dad. You couldn't choose to be a woman. And in fact, fun fact, you guys, in the womb, you know, the reason that men have nipples is because we all start out as women. So in a way, you're part of the community.

[Joe Rome]

Men are discouraged from sharing emotions. There's no question about that. And all I'll say to you on this subject, my daughter, because these are things you will have to learn on your own, is I do understand that a lot of women believe that men are fixer uppers, as they say.

[Tony]

I met some cool men here, but there's always something. You know what I'm saying?

[Joe Rome]

And all I'm saying is, like, women.

[Tony]

Are great, but men.

[Joe Rome]

I'm a big fan of women. All I have to say is the hope of either gender that they can get the other person in the relationship to change. But they don't have to, Right? She did a whole song on that, right? What's the song? It's on which. The Torture Poets Department song. The I can make him change. I really can.

[Tony]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can fix him. No, really, I can. That's the song, right?

[Joe Rome]

And by the end of the song, she realizes.

[Tony]

She's like, oh, shit, I can't.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah. So I will pass this wisdom on to you. You can.

[Tony]

Thank you, Wisdom giver.

[Joe Rome]

Yes. I think all of us should be in a continual act of growth, imposing that, Trying to get someone else to grow. I'll just say good luck, babe, as the song goes. And so let's. Let's continue in here because. Oh, and but one thing I want to say, by the way, for the listeners is we're going to try something.

[Tony]

He's already fixed. So if you're a lady, like, hit him up because he's been.

[Joe Rome]

I wasn't going to say that.

[Tony]

I was going to say he's a great guy. He's a feminist. He's a feminine.

[Joe Rome]

Thank you, my daughter.

[Tony]

Like, he's pretty great.

[Joe Rome]

That's the kindest thing, the warmest thing that you've ever said about me. My daughter Opalite really has a lot going on in it, including the hero's journey stories.

[Tony]

Yes, it definitely does. Right. For both of them, which is why it makes it a good song.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah, it's a double hero's journey story.

[Tony]

Him and they come together.

[Joe Rome]

Everyone needs to know how to tell their hero's journey story.

[Tony]

They do. Right.

[Joe Rome]

And so I hope that we can help you become a better storyteller. Learn from Taylor, one of the great storytellers of the day.

[Tony]

Are you ready to dive into the interview?

[Joe Rome]

Yeah, I think. Let's introduce the interview. So.

[Tony]

So who is this Charles man?

[Joe Rome]

Charlie Harding is a songwriter and now he's a music professor. But about 11 years ago, he started a podcast, oh, wow. With a friend of his cross country. And it evolved into. It won awards. It's a great podcast. It's called Switched On Pop. So anyway, these guys understand song lyrics and I think they did a great episode.

[Tony]

Yeah, we've been getting really good dudes for our interviews.

[Joe Rome]

All right, you're gonna learn a lot. I learned a lot from Charlie in this interview and I hope you'll listen.

[Tony]

Through speedily preparing for this episode in 2x speed. Listening to him, I also learned a lot.

[Joe Rome]

Yes. Then we're gonna come back for brief segment at the end where I'm hoping to really blow your minds with some final thoughts on what he's not told.

[Tony]

Me, what he's gonna say.

[Joe Rome]

I don't know.

[Tony]

What the hell.

[Joe Rome]

All right, with no further ado, here is the interview with Charlie Harding.

[Tony]

So you are on the other side.

[Joe Rome]

This is a sequence two where we're gonna talk to Charlie Harding. He's a multi hyphenate. You're a songwriter, music journalist, professor, and creator and co host of the award winning, award winning podcast Switched On Pop. Why don't you tell our audience a little bit about you?

[Charlie Harding]

Thank you so much for having me on the show. I appreciate it. I have been working as a music journalist on Switched on Pop for 11 years, and Taylor has been with us the entire time. I think the show, which started as a long distance musical friendship project, really developed into a much more serious journalistic inquiry probably on episode 11. Within year one, when we covered Blank Space and we just saw all the kinds of ways which she uses prosody where all the music is interwoven and connected to the lyric, that just blew us away.

[Nate Sloan]

And we've covered nearly every album released.

[Charlie Harding]

Since with a serious lapse in lover. That album came out the exact week my first son was born, so.

[Joe Rome]

Oh, sure, I understand.

[Charlie Harding]

Apologies to the Swifties out there.

[Nate Sloan]

But she is just one of the.

[Charlie Harding]

Most delightful artists to study because she's so thoughtful about every little choice. And thus a whole career in music journalism kicked off from one Taylor Swift song in many ways.

[Joe Rome]

Well, and I get what you're saying, and that's sort of what attracted me because I was originally into Shakespeare and figuring out what his plays meant. And I realized every single word he chooses is for a reason. And if you don't know the reason, you probably don't know what he's saying. And my daughter introduced me to many singer songwriters, but Taylor, I sort of realized, oh, wow, she is doing everything. She's putting a lot of stuff in, you know, if. If you discover a connection. She didn't do it by accident. And Blank Space. We did an episode on Blank Space in our first season because I was. We've been talking about storytelling and she loves hyperbole and antithesis. Right, darling? I'm nightmare dressed like a daydream. So you're behind really, really just love, as you say, talking about her lyrics. There's a great episode you did when the Life of a Showgirl dropped. Oh, thanks. And people should listen to that. And you were talking about this idea that we need to treat this like a show. People should approach this album a little differently than maybe some of the other albums. Could you explain that a little bit?

[Nate Sloan]

Sure.

[Charlie Harding]

I think that she's being very clear with her opening and her closing song. Her opening song, the Fate of Ophelia is a Shakespeare reference.

[Nate Sloan]

She's drawing from.

[Charlie Harding]

She's drawing from the history of English literature.

[Nate Sloan]

And then in her final song, Life of a Showgirl, she literally says, you.

[Charlie Harding]

Will never know the life of a showgirl.

[Nate Sloan]

She's telling us that everything is an act. It's a bit of a deception. I don't think we actually have to listen to this album differently than all Taylor Swift records. What I tried to say on Switched.

[Charlie Harding]

On Pop was that Taylor is a.

[Nate Sloan]

Performer and that as much as she is trying to maybe goad you into thinking, oh, who is this song exactly about? When you say that she chooses her words. I don't think her choice of words is necessarily about one person. I think her songs are about capturing an emotion, a feeling that you can read into. Now, one of those things you can.

[Charlie Harding]

Read into is, is it about this boyfriend? That boyfriend, that old flame, that friend, whatever.

[Nate Sloan]

And by all means, I do think.

[Charlie Harding]

That she is pulling from her real life. She says as much. We should trust her. But she also says that she will.

[Nate Sloan]

Never leave an Easter egg in her music. That will draw back to her personal life and to her private life. And when we see her communicate out.

[Charlie Harding]

In public, give the example of her commencement speech at nyu, it seems like.

[Nate Sloan]

Oh, you know, I'm so excited for you all to go out into the world. You're gonna be out there on your own, kid. And it's an Easter egg to a future album drop. So even when you think you're getting the real Taylor, she knows that she.

[Charlie Harding]

Is a professional former.

[Nate Sloan]

And I think she is stating that thesis so clearly on this album with the bookends of those two songs that.

[Charlie Harding]

You know, we should say fata Ophelia, that is drawing on the play Hamlet.

[Nate Sloan]

In which there is a play within a play. She is showing us with her text.

[Charlie Harding]

That things are not exactly as they seem.

[Joe Rome]

I agree. And if you watch the music video to Fate of Ophelia, then she's clearly cosplaying. And she uses the word cosplaying, right? She's cosplaying Ophelia, but then she cosplays a whole bunch of Marilyn Monroe.

[Nate Sloan]

Right? As you say, it's different showgirls of the past.

[Joe Rome]

Different showgirls of the past. And one of the things that I discussed when I was talking about this episode is she starts with, I heard you on the megaphone. In the music video, the megaphone is a director's megaphone. And then she also has this little ad she did where she's directing herself with a megaphone. And then the very end of life of a showgirl, she grabs the mic, breaks the fourth wall and says, thanks for coming here, right? Thanks to the singers in the band. And of course, Sabrina. And Sabrina screams back at her. So, yeah, she's blown up the fourth wall. And said, hey, guess what? You just watched a great show.

[Charlie Harding]

I love that analysis of the megaphone.

[Nate Sloan]

That it becomes intertextual. It's not just the lyric, which I'm.

[Charlie Harding]

Thinking my podcast, which I had to prepare within a day or two to help him drop. So it's a pretty quick reaction.

[Nate Sloan]

The obvious connection was Travis Kelce, her.

[Charlie Harding]

Now fiance, had gone on his megaphone.

[Nate Sloan]

His podcast, New Heights, and said, you know, there's this pod, there's this new album. Here's Taylor, actually, I guess. No, the reference was he had called.

[Charlie Harding]

Her out for not getting to meet up with him after era's show thing.

[Nate Sloan]

Right. So he called out on his megaphone. But here's the thing about decoding Taylor Swift. Getting to know what the words might mean, I don't think is about arriving at a singular meaning that tells us what the song is about. In fact, you've just shown us that when we look at this intertextually and watch the video, the megaphone all of a sudden becomes a metaphor that expands. And what we see is that oftentimes by looking closer and closer to the work, actually what happens is when you.

[Charlie Harding]

Pull out, the world has expanded and.

[Nate Sloan]

That the megaphone is not singular.

[Charlie Harding]

It does not mean one thing.

[Nate Sloan]

In the same way that when we read Hamlet over and over and over again over the centuries, its meaning constantly evolves. I think she's very conscious of that in her songwriting, and she's willing to trick us.

[Joe Rome]

She.

[Nate Sloan]

She baits us.

[Charlie Harding]

Right.

[Nate Sloan]

Constantly trying to figure out all who's what about. But she's smarter than that. And there's significantly more going on, I.

[Charlie Harding]

Think, beyond the work.

[Nate Sloan]

Within each work.

[Joe Rome]

Absolutely. You have the fate of Ophelia and the life of a showgirl that structurally, the titles are similar. They use the F sound. As with Father Figure, she sort of has a running thing there. Those songs also start with an imaginary character. One's Ophelia, one's Kitty.

[Charlie Harding]

Yes.

[Joe Rome]

And the second verse of each one is a backstory of first Ophelia and then of Kitty. So, yes, I agree with you that she. This is foreshadow. I. You know, she uses foreshadow the way Shakespeare does.

[Charlie Harding]

And.

[Joe Rome]

No, I really, really like this album, you know, and I appreciate you. You had to do a quick dive and, you know, now that you've had some time, I'm glad you know, this.

[Stephanie Megan]

Podcast is dedicated to my younger self.

[Hallie Keeper]

Because she really needed it.

[Stephanie Megan]

She couldn't keep a man or a job. Welcome to Broker Therapy. I'm your host, Stephanie Megan I'm your co host, Rose Macalise. Every week we dive into dating, sex and relationships. We are not professionals but you bring professionals on the pod to give us some advice, listen to rokotherapy, wherever. You love to listen to podcasts. Therapy is too expensive. But this podcast isn't.

[Joe Rome]

Hey Michael.

[Tom]

Hey Tom. So big news to share, right?

[Nate Sloan]

Yes.

[Tom]

Huge, monumental earth shaking heartbeat sound effect. Big mates is back.

[Joe Rome]

That's right.

[Tom]

After a brief snack nap, we're coming back, we're picking snacks, we're eating snacks, we're raiding snacks like the snackologist we were born to be. Mates is back. Mike and Tom eat snacks wherever you get your podcasts. Unless you get them from a snack machine, in which case call us.

[Nate Sloan]

Call us.

[Joe Rome]

I wanted to chat with you about a lot but we've been talking about Opalite.

[Charlie Harding]

I love Opalite.

[Nate Sloan]

The first time I heard Opalite I.

[Charlie Harding]

Said that is the hit. And I'm not surprised that On Billboard's Hot 100 right now, Opalite is number two.

[Nate Sloan]

Feet of Ophelia was of course the lead single.

[Charlie Harding]

I think that Opalite is going to be the long running hit out of this record.

[Joe Rome]

I think so. And in fact it's the one that leaped ahead. It leaped ahead of Elizabeth Taylor. Tell me more. I mean you're an expert on really her how she writes songs. What is it? This is sort of Max Martin y. This is a bop or whatever, you know, term you use. How would you. Why is it so pure pop? Why is it such a good song in your mind?

[Charlie Harding]

It reminds me of when I heard the song Birds of a Feather by Billie Eilish for the first time.

[Nate Sloan]

Both of these songs are.

[Charlie Harding]

And by the way, I really don't like to compare pop stars to one.

[Nate Sloan]

Another, but the songs have something in common.

[Charlie Harding]

Where Billie's last record was, her last album was this very expansive sort of concept album where every song flows nicely into the next. It's a very challenging music on there. A lot of experimentation with genre. You know, Taylor here I think is.

[Nate Sloan]

Concept album is sort of loose.

[Charlie Harding]

You know, it's not one singular storyline but rather it's a world that she's built. It's an era in her world.

[Nate Sloan]

In both albums there was this thing.

[Charlie Harding]

Where it's like, oh, there is the pop song.

[Nate Sloan]

And for me that is a familiar classic chord progression. So using the 1, 6 and 4 and 5 chords, the most common chords.

[Charlie Harding]

If you play guitar, that's C, G, F and A minor. You can play them in any Order. And you have just like, I don't.

[Nate Sloan]

Know what 60% of pop songs use.

[Charlie Harding]

Those combination of chords.

[Nate Sloan]

Finding new phrasing new melodies over these.

[Charlie Harding]

Familiar chords is a very satisfying thing to listeners.

[Nate Sloan]

And I love that she pairs this progression. Those chords are often called ice cream changes or the 50s progression because they.

[Charlie Harding]

Were so popular in doo wop and they were the same chord changes played on ice cream trucks.

[Nate Sloan]

And so this song employing this chord.

[Charlie Harding]

Progression is also very throwback. It has a.

[Nate Sloan]

Sort of Motown era or throwback 50s, 60s girl group vibe.

[Charlie Harding]

It's very reminiscent of the Renettes. Be My Baby. The oh, oh, oh moment is clearly inspired by it.

[Nate Sloan]

And the entire presentation of the song.

[Charlie Harding]

Has this sort of classic quality that is celebrating the Showgirls of the 50s and 60s girl group era.

[Nate Sloan]

So all of those things, this classic pull back to familiar pop sounds of.

[Charlie Harding]

The past while updating them with her kinds of stories and great metaphors. Yeah, that's what does it.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah. And I agree, I love, you know, I'm very big on metaphor. I mean, great musicians, great songs are metaphorical. Travis's birthstone is opal. So not. Not an. You know, he's born in October and. But they. Apparently she and her mother loved opal beforehand. I was going to read this quote. I thought it was kind of a cool metaphor. Opalite is a man made opal. And happiness can also be man made too. So that's sort of what she's singing about is you have to make your own happiness. And I think, by the way, I think that's a theme of the whole album and the theme of both Fate of Ophelia and Elizabeth Taylor and some other songs is you have to make your own happiness.

[Nate Sloan]

It's also a clever metaphor. Who's ever written a song about opalite?

[Joe Rome]

Right?

[Nate Sloan]

Like a man made stone. It's a much more sonorous word than cubic zirconium.

[Joe Rome]

Yes.

[Nate Sloan]

Maybe pyrite would be a decent metaphor. We could use fool's gold. Fool's gold, though, has a. There's a cynicism within fool's gold. The word fool, let alone is just really drawing you in a certain direction. But opalite, it's a word.

[Charlie Harding]

I guess I'd probably heard it before, but I'm not much into gemstones.

[Nate Sloan]

It wasn't familiar to me, but of course, at the same time, it was instantly familiar. I'm like, oh, yes, opalite. Oh, sure, sure, sure. That must be a stone. And I already have a sense of.

[Charlie Harding]

What it looks like. And it, of course, matches perfectly. But the sky is Opalite.

[Nate Sloan]

And you're like, oh, yeah, the sky does have an opalite quality. That's the kind of day where it's not a blue sky day, but it's like the clouds are lifting and they're sort of starting to haze over a little bit because opal is a little hazy. I could instantly see it. A word that I probably have never heard as a metaphor before. That's a perfect kind of song where you're saying something everyone has heard, that everyone feels familiar with, and they've never.

[Charlie Harding]

Heard it in that context.

[Joe Rome]

No, absolutely. And a lot. I mean, because a lot of pop songs are taking a well known phrase and repeating it in different ways. But here, this is a. Like, who? As you say, I don't know if the word opalite has ever been used even in a lyric of like, a top 10 song.

[Charlie Harding]

Someone out there is saying, taylor, Yeah.

[Nate Sloan]

I did that 75 years ago. I'm furious at you.

[Charlie Harding]

But I don't think she took it from anybody. I think that this was something she arrived on. And it feels very pure, simple, innocent.

[Nate Sloan]

Something that feels like it could have been written.

[Charlie Harding]

By the Ronettes or the Supremes or music of that era.

[Joe Rome]

Right. The metaphors in this song are very timeless.

[Charlie Harding]

It's much more innocent than some of the other songs.

[Nate Sloan]

There's plenty of more explicit songs.

[Charlie Harding]

Uh, there's a lot of contemporary, you.

[Nate Sloan]

Know, sort of Internet slang that we.

[Charlie Harding]

Hear on this album.

[Nate Sloan]

Yeah, Opalite feels like timeless.

[Joe Rome]

Uh, yes. And she's able to, you know, compare the Opalite day to the Onyx Knight, which is a classic thing she does is sort of extend a metaphor. I'm gonna talk about one stone, so I'm gonna use the other stone as a different metaphor. You know, the opposing metaphor.

[Charlie Harding]

Yeah, it's. Yeah, it's a lovely pairing. And it's also. It's about rhyme. One thing that we know about Taylor's.

[Nate Sloan]

Writing, we can listen to her voice notes.

[Charlie Harding]

She makes them available, which is incredibly.

[Nate Sloan]

Raw and vulnerable because they're not beautiful. Like, they're unprocessed. They're thoughts in motion. She, in writing with Max Martin and Shellback especially, really cares about melody, internal.

[Charlie Harding]

Rhythm.

[Nate Sloan]

The melodic rhythm, stresses where things are going to land. And you can hear her creating songs like this where she's like, la, la, la, Opalite. And you're like, oh, she's got.

[Charlie Harding]

Okay, she got the idea.

[Nate Sloan]

And then you can sort of see how she backs into Opalite. What rhymes with Opalite? Onyx Night. And so it's both incredibly deliberate, but, yeah, it feels like she's solving a puzzle. It's not as if every single word is chosen as a sort of, like.

[Charlie Harding]

Verite of her journaled experience from her.

[Nate Sloan]

Life, but rather this. This game where she's inventing melody and rhythm and rhyme and then constructing narrative from that metaphor. That's. That's so much the Max Martin and contemporary pop way of writing. And she is one of the experts in writing in that way.

[Joe Rome]

Can you tell me a little bit about. Cause I'd love our listeners to know a little bit more about this Max Martin way of writing. Obviously, he is almost tied with Paul McCartney, as, you know, the two greatest songwriters in terms of number one hits. What is. I mean, he's a Swedish guy and yet he has mastered number one songs in a completely different language. So can you sort of tell our listeners what's he doing that he understands and that Taylor understands that she wants to work with him?

[Charlie Harding]

Well, Max is, aside from being immensely talented and adorned with Billboard medals, famously quiet. He has only done, I believe, four interviews.

[Nate Sloan]

Wow. And so what we know about him we're drawing from very little information. We're drawing from secondhand knowledge.

[Charlie Harding]

I've interviewed people who've worked with him. I recently spoke with Zara Larsson, who's Swedish, who's worked with Max Martin. And so, you know, we get some.

[Nate Sloan]

Experience from the people who've worked with him, but he really lets the artist shine. And so, to a certain extent, I.

[Charlie Harding]

Do think we're speculating at exactly what it is that he's doing, but, you.

[Nate Sloan]

Know, we need to know that.

[Charlie Harding]

Max Martin arrives to Chiron Studios, the studio of Dennis Pop, which helped form the early careers of Robin and Ace of Bass. These Swedes have been really inspired by abba, who were one of the big pop breakouts from Sweden in the Eurovision competition.

[Nate Sloan]

And they had a vision of pop music that became the sound of the 90s.

[Charlie Harding]

It was Britney Spears, Backstreet Boys, NSync, and Max Martin was behind many of those hits. His. His mentor, Dennis Pop tragically died at a young age, and so he sort of became the torchbearer of that sound. When the sound of late 90s pop.

[Nate Sloan]

Music started to change, so did Max Martin.

[Charlie Harding]

Max had actually got his start playing in like, I think, like metal bands or something, or like air metal stuff before he was a songwriter for other people. And so he knew how to adapt into other genres. He started working with Pink And Kelly Clarkson, he Contemporary Times has written extensively with Ariana Grande, the Weeknd, and just countless other artists.

[Nate Sloan]

People talk a lot about with Max.

[Charlie Harding]

This sense of melodic math, that there is a structure to the melody, where.

[Nate Sloan]

For Max, I know that concept and melody and hooks are paramount. Having a clear, great concept is essential. And then building the rest of the.

[Charlie Harding]

World around that chorus, hook that melody.

[Nate Sloan]

In a way that has kind of like when you're a physicist, you know how it is like to solve a mathematical equation where all things are equal on both sides and it's just very satisfying.

[Charlie Harding]

And he knows that if the melody and the chorus is going to be long and drawn out, you know, that the melody in the verse is going.

[Nate Sloan]

To be shorter and faster, that there's.

[Charlie Harding]

Going to be a balance throughout the entire song. And because he is a. A Swede, where Swedes have one of the highest English proficiencies of non English primary speaking countries. So he's very fluent in English.

[Nate Sloan]

But the thing you always miss in.

[Charlie Harding]

A second language are specific cultural idioms.

[Joe Rome]

Yes.

[Nate Sloan]

And so.

[Charlie Harding]

And this is something that benefits him. He will write these. These lines like, what.

[Nate Sloan]

What is that phrasing? What do you mean?

[Charlie Harding]

He wrote Hit me baby one more time, which is like kind of first impression. You're like, is that about some kind of violent act?

[Joe Rome]

Right.

[Nate Sloan]

And he was trying to say, you mean like. No, hit me back on the phone.

[Charlie Harding]

Like, call me back.

[Joe Rome]

Yes.

[Nate Sloan]

Right. And so sometimes when we're writing songs, we're actually trying to find new ways of saying things. And having English as a second language.

[Charlie Harding]

Is actually to his benefit because he.

[Nate Sloan]

Maps words just very slightly differently. And I think, obviously, I want to check something real quick. Is Taylor the sole writer? They share writing credits.

[Charlie Harding]

Yeah.

[Nate Sloan]

And then on Opalite, Max, Martin and.

[Charlie Harding]

Shellback, who is another one of the.

[Nate Sloan]

Producers and songwriters on this album, we don't know who wrote exactly every single moment.

[Charlie Harding]

We could listen back to some of the voice notes to get an idea, but you can. I feel like.

[Nate Sloan]

I don't know. I'm just looking at some of the lyrics here. Like a storm inside a teacup is.

[Charlie Harding]

One of the lines in Opalife.

[Nate Sloan]

That's a great metaphor. That feels like something that a Swede.

[Charlie Harding]

Might have come up with. It very well could be Taylor's idea.

[Joe Rome]

So that's Max, speaking of mathematical, since you brought it up the repetition five times, right here we have the O, O, O, O, O. And the love, love, love, love, love. And that goes back to Shake it Off, which they wrote.

[Nate Sloan]

Oh, my Gosh, yeah.

[Joe Rome]

Which is the. Again, five repetitions, which is a lot.

[Nate Sloan]

I mean, it's a lot of repetition.

[Joe Rome]

It is a lot of. And. And Shake it off is a very repetitious song at. Particularly at the end. But I think that's. Abba understood that, that, that. That repetition was key. But yes, I sort of see a sort of a mathematical thing in what they're doing.

[Nate Sloan]

Max is going to repeat something up until the point, until your ear knows it, and then he's going to change. He will also trick you.

[Charlie Harding]

A song like Oops, I Did it Again.

[Nate Sloan]

That song begins with the chorus line.

[Charlie Harding]

And melody, except you don't know it because it starts I did it again.

[Joe Rome]

Right.

[Nate Sloan]

It's the first line of the verse.

[Charlie Harding]

And you're like, okay, what did you do again?

[Nate Sloan]

And it skips. There's no oops. It's just, I did it again. I play with our heart, whatever. And then finally when the chorus comes back around, oops, I did and all. Now you finally hear. You hear it once again. And because he's previewed the melody before, you're like, oh, I like this. This feels familiar.

[Charlie Harding]

But he's also separated these melodies by, you know, there's a whole pre.

[Nate Sloan]

Chorus in between them.

[Charlie Harding]

And so by the time you get to the chorus, you're like, oh, great chorus.

[Nate Sloan]

So he's very conscious about having the.

[Charlie Harding]

Right amount of repetition and variation. Too much repetition and you're going to get bored. Not enough repetition and you won't be able to remember it. Variation in order to keep you constantly interested.

[Joe Rome]

Well, I love that, you know, starting I think I Did it Again. That's the way a lot of modern TV shows start at the weird thing that you see and then it says 24 hours earlier.

[Charlie Harding]

Yeah, exactly.

[Joe Rome]

Suck you in with that.

[Charlie Harding]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

So, yeah, really, really. It's one of my favorite songs. And the whole Titanic thing in the third verse.

[Charlie Harding]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

You know, is just insane. So there's one very interesting line in this song. In the final two verses, she says, never met no one like you before. But in the first one she says, never made no one like you before.

[Charlie Harding]

Oh, I didn't even catch that.

[Joe Rome]

A lot of. I realized that a lot of people missed that and I had to go back to make sure. I was trying to understand what she was doing there because that's a dynamite word. Rather than met, I was originally thinking that she's imagining. Constructing this guy, Pygmalion or whatever. You know, because as you say this song, we immediately think, oh, we know this is Travis Kelce.

[Charlie Harding]

Right.

[Joe Rome]

But as you say, it's not Travis Kelce. It's this Immet, her imagined ideal version of him or whatever it is. Or.

[Nate Sloan]

Yeah, it's the song that is inspired.

[Charlie Harding]

By, motivated by that feeling and that relationship that then gets constructed first through hooks and melodies and then through metaphor and drawing from our personal life. This is why I called it on our show. Not just autofiction, but. Which is drawing from autobiography, but also fictional, but polyphonic autofiction.

[Nate Sloan]

Because she's often also drawing on other.

[Charlie Harding]

Characters, whether there are other versions of herself or other characters like Kitty or Ophelia.

[Joe Rome]

Well, as Walt Whitman said, what? I contain multitudes.

[Charlie Harding]

Yes, exactly.

[Joe Rome]

If anyone contains multitudes, you know, it is definitely Taylor. She is able to empathize. And like Shakespeare, he's able to empathize with people who are completely different from her. And it's one of the reasons why I get upset when people, like, quote a line from one of her songs and says that's what she believes. Right. They say the same thing about Shakespeare. No, no, no. She's a writer.

[Charlie Harding]

Right.

[Nate Sloan]

Especially when we understand the process of. Actually, what you share so much in.

[Charlie Harding]

Common with Shakespeare is that with Shakespeare.

[Nate Sloan]

Meter is so essential. Iambic pentameter.

[Charlie Harding]

It creates a structure of what words.

[Nate Sloan]

Can and cannot fit and thus forces fiction. Right. You have to change which words are going to work to match the stresses of the melody.

[Charlie Harding]

And you might have to change someone's.

[Nate Sloan]

Name, a pronoun, an adjective. You might have to change the place that you're in.

[Charlie Harding]

And so it immediately has to be a created world, a crafted world.

[Nate Sloan]

But who did she make? We've gone beyond there. I've never made someone like you before. What is she saying? What does it mean?

[Joe Rome]

I googled it just because it was so odd and apparently. But again, you know, that's in the real world. You hear a song and it's up to you to figure it out. Right. And most of the listeners don't know, but apparently she and her mother kind of talk about this. What she may mean is, in all of my songwriting, in all of my dreams, I never imagined a person like you. Oh, yeah.

[Nate Sloan]

Oh, well. And also, well, obviously, this is Opalite. It's a man made.

[Joe Rome]

Right.

[Charlie Harding]

It's a crafted stone.

[Nate Sloan]

So she's almost stepping into the shoes.

[Charlie Harding]

Of the craftsperson who created the opalite.

[Joe Rome]

Right? And she's saying, whatever you are, you're an original. And did I make you or you make yourself? And I think part of the song is that she is trying to tell him that. Remember, she says there's this line, you know, life will beat you up. This is a temporary speed bump, but failure brings you freedom. So she's trying to tell him that he can make whatever he. He failed in this previous relationship like she did. But now I. I can.

[Charlie Harding]

You.

[Joe Rome]

You can make yourself whatever you want, and together we can maybe make ourselves whatever we want.

[Charlie Harding]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Nate Sloan]

I just have to share this.

[Charlie Harding]

I'm looking at the lyrics right now.

[Joe Rome]

Please.

[Nate Sloan]

Life is a song.

[Charlie Harding]

It ends when it ends.

[Nate Sloan]

Ooh, that's a gut punch line.

[Joe Rome]

Yes. Yes. I wanted to ask you. That line first troubled me because life isn't like a song. So the question is, how is it like a song?

[Nate Sloan]

Yeah. Cause clearly a song is so limited. It only has, you know, it's three minutes long.

[Charlie Harding]

It has this climactic moment.

[Nate Sloan]

Other parts usually can cover one subject. There's not that many characters in it.

[Charlie Harding]

Life is not at all like a song.

[Joe Rome]

No, not at all. But maybe life is short.

[Charlie Harding]

Yes.

[Joe Rome]

And maybe it's how she thinks about songs, that each song she writes is a life.

[Nate Sloan]

A song is written.

[Charlie Harding]

Opalite is made.

[Joe Rome]

Yes. And, you know, I mean, a song like world building. I think you've used that word. I think she has used that word. I mean, obviously a song like all too well is a 10 minute constructed world.

[Charlie Harding]

It's amazing.

[Nate Sloan]

Yeah.

[Roz Hernandez]

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[Narrator]

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[Nate Sloan]

I feel like I kind of rushed.

[Charlie Harding]

Over and I just would like to provide an example of the way in which songwriting is world building in the connection to Shakespeare and meter and stresses and how that forces language. I think the Best example that is antihero because it's so the.

[Nate Sloan]

The stress pattern is so clear.

[Charlie Harding]

It's me.

[Nate Sloan]

Hi, I'm the problem. It's me.

[Charlie Harding]

At t time everybody agrees you it's.

[Nate Sloan]

It's almost nursery rhyme like. And then of course you get that perfect repetition. And then she's going to give you.

[Charlie Harding]

This long run on sentence.

[Nate Sloan]

I'll stare directly at the sun but never in the mirror. It must be exhausting.

[Charlie Harding]

Always rooting for the anti hero.

[Nate Sloan]

So nice that the word exhausting is.

[Charlie Harding]

In this long run on exhausted sentence.

[Nate Sloan]

You can hear in the way that.

[Charlie Harding]

She'S constructing these choruses that there is a commitment to clarity of repetition and.

[Nate Sloan]

That she's going to find the words.

[Charlie Harding]

That fit with it's me. Hi, I'm the problem.

[Nate Sloan]

It's me. And then she has to solve this puzzle now of like how do I get exactly those same stresses in the next line? That's the kind of thinking that's going.

[Charlie Harding]

On in a songwriter's mind, which is different than a biographer's mind.

[Joe Rome]

Sure. Yes. And you know, I liked the song we discussed it in the first season because she does a lot of plays on hero's journeys. Sometimes she does reverse heroes journeys where she crashes and burns. But the opening line, I quote a lot. You know, I have this thing where I get older but just never wiser. So she understands the defining thing about a hero is they grow and learn the defining and their self less. The defining thing about a hero is that they don't grow, they don't learn and they're selfish. So she understands what a hero's journey is. And I always tell people who like oh, I don't know what they don't know. They don't like Teller. They don't know. I say, you know, listen to the extended version of all too well and watch the music video right. Of antihero. Because I don't think a pop star has ever done such a sort of self exact critical self examination.

[Charlie Harding]

Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rome]

To say maybe the guys I'm going out with aren't.

[Charlie Harding]

It's not just them, it's me. Yeah. It's powerful.

[Nate Sloan]

It's hard to be that vulnerable.

[Charlie Harding]

And anyone who feels that these. That any song feels too simple is missing the sleight of hand trick that a songwriter is doing. A songwriter is especially in the Taylor Swift way of writing things that are hyper detailed auto fiction.

[Nate Sloan]

These songs are trying to sound spoken. They're trying to sound like something you might say to a friend.

[Charlie Harding]

And at the same time Be unbelievably memorable. We create memorability through rhyme and melody and rhythm. But too much rhyming can create sort.

[Nate Sloan]

Of a break of the fourth wall. It creates a little bump in the.

[Charlie Harding]

Road where you're like, oh, it's just.

[Nate Sloan]

Rhyme, rhyme, rhyme, rhyme, rhyme.

[Joe Rome]

Like Dr. Seuss or something.

[Nate Sloan]

Exactly. It becomes too much like a children's book. And so she is strategic about her use of rhyme and rhythm and meter to make sure it's memorable, but also that it's personal. And to then use these tools and song format, the larger structure of the song, to use these tools and be able to tell a consistent, clear narrative while you're having to be conscious of your rhymes, your rhyme schemes, your internal rhymes, your assonances, to be able to keep track of all of that and.

[Charlie Harding]

Then give you a story that runs all the way through.

[Nate Sloan]

That's what a great songwriter does. So to write a song, like, all.

[Charlie Harding]

Too well, where it's just like, story.

[Nate Sloan]

And then this happens, but therefore this happens, and, oh, my gosh, you won't believe this happens, that is great songwriting.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah. And I think the other, of course, way to be memorable is to make an allusion to something that's already memorable, like Hamlet and Ophelia or Elizabeth Taylor. And I mean, it's obviously, in some sense, ballsy, which I'll use that word because we know from this album that she has.

[Charlie Harding]

She's happy to.

[Joe Rome]

She has a big dick. Right. In Fossil.

[Nate Sloan]

I was not expecting that.

[Charlie Harding]

Lyrics.

[Joe Rome]

I was like. I was saying to people, this has got to be the only album in history where the singer, a female, says, both her boyfriend has a big dick and she has a big dick. It is ballsy to rewrite maybe the most famous play ever written. Right. The two most famous tragedies are Romeo and Juliet.

[Charlie Harding]

Yes.

[Joe Rome]

And him, arguably. Right.

[Charlie Harding]

She's rewritten both of them.

[Joe Rome]

She rewritten both. So that's like, okay, Shakespeare, you like tragedies. I love your stories. I just like happy endings.

[Charlie Harding]

Yeah.

[Nate Sloan]

She prefers the comedy. It takes guts, you know, it is.

[Charlie Harding]

The role of a pop star, I think, to be able to demonstrate an absurd amount of confidence.

[Joe Rome]

Yes.

[Charlie Harding]

Because we're all projecting ourselves into these worlds, and we need people who are even more confident in their vulnerabilities to.

[Nate Sloan]

Say, hey, I'm a little bit of.

[Charlie Harding]

The problem here in the confidences of. I'm happy to take on the most.

[Nate Sloan]

Legendary works of all time and see myself in them. Because we have to see ourselves in our pop stars.

[Charlie Harding]

And so this is not a Taylorism.

[Nate Sloan]

This is 50% of the world of.

[Charlie Harding]

Hip hop is about boasting of how.

[Nate Sloan]

Great you are and we all need.

[Charlie Harding]

A confidence boost at time.

[Nate Sloan]

So I think it's a really fun way of putting yourself in history, putting yourself in music history, claiming space and saying, I can be a part of this too.

[Joe Rome]

Well, and I've said many times I consider her to be a modern day Shakespeare. Shakespeare rewrote every play he wrote. He took from someone else.

[Nate Sloan]

Oh yeah.

[Joe Rome]

And Hamlet, he took apparently from a play that was written and out 10 years earlier.

[Nate Sloan]

No way.

[Charlie Harding]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

If you Google, for those who are the hardcore nerds, Google Hamlet or the Ur Hamlet. Ur Hamlet. It's clear that there was a play called Hamlet about revenge that was popular 10, 12 years earlier. And he just took it and said, I'm rewriting this whole thing.

[Charlie Harding]

It's like rebooting Batman after the last reboot had just come out.

[Joe Rome]

So now that you've had two weeks from your hot take, sort of a hot take.

[Nate Sloan]

I tried to digest slowly as possible.

[Charlie Harding]

And be as thoughtful as possible, but yes, it was a quick take.

[Joe Rome]

I will say now it's got the top 12 spots.

[Charlie Harding]

Yes.

[Joe Rome]

Not surprising and not surprising in Taylor's world. No, in the world of mere mortals.

[Charlie Harding]

She just doesn't exist on our plane.

[Joe Rome]

This album, obviously still, as you said, it was controversial when it came out. It's controversial now. Now I try to tell people half of her albums are controversial. She switched from country to pop.

[Charlie Harding]

Oh yeah.

[Joe Rome]

She dropped reputation, Right. She dropped folklore. These were jaw dropping shocks to a lot of people. So what's your take on this album? The songs? The other point I try to make is people are remembered for their greatest songs. Right? Now we pick out their worst lyric, right. But Dylan had 600 songs and I think that's why he's famous.

[Nate Sloan]

Well, that's what One of the apt.

[Charlie Harding]

Comparisons to someone like Dylan or to I think of like Neil Young are.

[Nate Sloan]

Artists who just continue to put out work.

[Charlie Harding]

Like Neil Young puts out an album.

[Nate Sloan]

Seemingly every eight months. And every handful of albums there's a.

[Charlie Harding]

Record where you're, wow, stunning.

[Nate Sloan]

Taylor has put out a ridiculous amount.

[Charlie Harding]

Of music in the last couple of years.

[Nate Sloan]

She's working at a pace that is uncanny and unlike any of her peers in pop music.

[Charlie Harding]

I don't mean to suggest that that means that they're all not going to be hits, right? But in fact, I think our hit rate is, as we are seeing on Billboard, exceptionally high.

[Nate Sloan]

This record doesn't make the Strong left.

[Charlie Harding]

Turn that reputation makes or that folklore makes. Rather, she is continuing some sounds that.

[Nate Sloan]

We'Ve heard before, continuing collaborations that we've heard before, and injecting just what I.

[Charlie Harding]

Hear, like 20% of this showgirl sound.

[Nate Sloan]

Using sounds of the past, she invokes.

[Charlie Harding]

Sort of the classical jazz era of music, the classical pop era of music.

[Nate Sloan]

You can hear in lots of her bridges.

[Charlie Harding]

I love the, in the song wish.

[Nate Sloan]

List, these unbelievable reharmonizations of the chords.

[Charlie Harding]

That feel very classic. And so there's a little bit of.

[Nate Sloan]

New sound in here. Part of the reason why, I think, is because Taylor, unlike I can't think of anyone, has continued to build a new youth audience with every generation. And so a lot of times as an artist you have the opportunity to be like, this was my first record.

[Charlie Harding]

I was a kid.

[Nate Sloan]

Now I'm revealing more about myself.

[Charlie Harding]

Now I'm becoming an adult.

[Nate Sloan]

This is me becoming a woman album and now here's me like going out.

[Charlie Harding]

On a limb album.

[Nate Sloan]

She's playing to this very large audience, which is both much older and much younger. And one of the things that we.

[Charlie Harding]

Hear on this record that I think gets the most criticism is her worst album is her use of what we.

[Nate Sloan]

Can call cringy lyrics. Trying to use Internet speak, slang that.

[Charlie Harding]

Does not fit in her mouth, that doesn't feel like she would be delivering.

[Nate Sloan]

And many people find it off putting.

[Charlie Harding]

And I find it to be thoughtful and deliberate.

[Nate Sloan]

One of the things that we're learning.

[Charlie Harding]

About the character of Taylor Swift, I.

[Nate Sloan]

Might say the showgirl that I am.

[Charlie Harding]

Learning about in this album is despite.

[Nate Sloan]

All this stuff and perhaps because of.

[Charlie Harding]

All this fame, accolades, et cetera, I'm just kind of basic and I want to do basic things like bake bread, I want to get married, probably want to have some kids. And I know that I'm not cool. In fact, Taylor Swift has never been cool.

[Nate Sloan]

At no point in her career has.

[Charlie Harding]

She ever been cool. She's always been able to pull off being an underdog, even as a billionaire.

[Nate Sloan]

Because she's comfortable showing her vulnerabilities of.

[Charlie Harding]

I'm gonna use words.

[Nate Sloan]

It's like I'm a middle aged dad.

[Charlie Harding]

And professor and if I said, wow, that's so fire, this is so savage, my students would eviscerate me.

[Nate Sloan]

And I think she knows that people.

[Charlie Harding]

Are gonna eviscerate her for using Internet.

[Nate Sloan]

Slang, which we should say, of course, largely coming first through black communities and queer communities and then becomes diffused throughout.

[Charlie Harding]

The Internet and becomes broad youth slang. I think that is how she's invoking it, though other people have made analysis on the sort of important racial history of this language and perhaps there's some insensitivity to using these words. I hear it as trying to put on words that clearly are not fitting. And look how kind of lame I.

[Nate Sloan]

Am, because that's who I am and.

[Charlie Harding]

I'm comfortable being actually who I am. That's what we're hearing, especially in Eldest Daughter.

[Nate Sloan]

Eldest Daughter is this beautiful ballad full of words that do not fit in.

[Charlie Harding]

A beautiful ballad.

[Joe Rome]

Interesting. Well, and much as in Shake it off, where she can't dance, right. She tries all the different types of dancing. She has these people who are world class dancers and she can't do it, but she still just enjoys dancing.

[Nate Sloan]

Most people are not the popular kid. Most people are not the good dancer.

[Charlie Harding]

So she is the person that you can project your feelings into. Like, I feel equally awkward when I try to use those words. I feel equally awkward when I try to do those dance moves.

[Joe Rome]

Well, look, really appreciate your take here and your time here. And I hope everybody, you know, listens to. What is it? Switched On Pop.

[Charlie Harding]

Yeah, Switched On Pop.

[Joe Rome]

Great podcast out of Vulture.

[Charlie Harding]

Yeah, Vulture, New York magazine, which is part of the Vox Media family.

[Nate Sloan]

Lots of. Lots of layers here.

[Charlie Harding]

But yeah, we've been doing this thing for 11 years, me and my co host, Nate Sloan. He's a musicologist, I'm a songwriter. We talk about pop music every single week.

[Nate Sloan]

It's a lot of fun. Thank you for having me.

[Charlie Harding]

It's just always a delight talking, Taylor.

[Joe Rome]

It is always a light. Thank you so much. So that was a really great interview.

[Tony]

I thought, oh, my gosh, that was an amazing interview. Oh, wait. Hey, are you guys here? You state our listeners are very cool. You guys seem like really awesome people. Thank you for leaving comments.

[Joe Rome]

Please leave comments.

[Tony]

I read them when I smile. Ask questions. Yes, we will answer your questions on the podcast.

[Joe Rome]

If you ask questions, we will answer them on the podcast.

[Tony]

We will answer the questions, put them.

[Joe Rome]

In Spotify, put them in the comments.

[Tony]

In the comments, in the comments below. I love answering questions.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah, I think this song is a very ironic song. Yes, I think this song is very.

[Tony]

Just blow our minds, Joe.

[Joe Rome]

Well, the line was when she says, life is a song, it ends when it ends. Right. And as we discuss, as Charlie and I discussed, life, in many respects, life is not at all like a song.

[Tony]

Sure.

[Joe Rome]

And so the question is, what does she mean by that? And then the interesting thing, which I noticed after the interview was what's the lyric? Immediately after she says, life is a song. It ends when it ends, you move on. I was wrong.

[Tony]

Oh, I was wrong.

[Joe Rome]

So that was the question I have for you and for everybody. What does it mean when. When Taylor says in the middle of her song, I was wrong. What was she wrong about?

[Tony]

Her boyfriends. She just dated the wrong people. That's what I assumed.

[Joe Rome]

Well, she says, and all the foes and all the friends have seen it before, they'll see it again. Life is a song. It ends when it ends. I was wrong. I'm just saying that that's a bombshell thing to drop into the middle of your song when it's not exactly clear. Later she says, you move on. But here she says, I was wrong. Right. So is she saying that she's wrong when she said life is a song? Is that entire thing before what she said wrong?

[Tony]

No, I don't think that's what she means. I think it's something along the lines of when people say things like, I don't know, it is what it is. You know, I was wrong. Something like that. Right. I think she's talking about how she, like, dated the wrong people. She was wrong. She thought that they were the ones, and she was wrong. You know, she says in another one of her songs on the album, I thought I had it right once, twice. But it could be.

[Joe Rome]

I'm just saying it's a very odd place to put in. I was wrong. And I'm thinking, all right, well, then.

[Tony]

What do you think, Joseph?

[Joe Rome]

Well, I just think that she doesn't want this song read straight. Everyone is very much reading this song straight. And I'm just saying that this is one of the other instances where she is being. Turning this song on its head and making it very ironic. Let's come to this part. This life will beat you up up, up, up, up this is just a temporary speed bump. But failure brings you freedom and I can bring you love, love, love, love, love, love, love. So failure brings you freedom, I think is the powerful line in this song. We get to Hero's Journey. The lowest point in your life is the thing that sets you free. Right? So in some sense, although she says she was wrong, the point is you have to go through this process to be right. Right? Nobody starts out. You can't get there just by. No one's always right. You gotta make some mistakes to figure stuff out. Right. Her mother's advice, I think, is good advice. Which is, you know, there's lightning strikes all around you. Right? But you're dancing, you know, they're sort of making you dance. And anyway, I just think it's a mistake to think this song is just about her and Travis. Right. That was the point that Charlie made. Right. You can say it sounds like that's what she's talking about and she's taken elements from that. Right. But again, this whole album is part of a show.

[Tony]

Right. And she's talking about the broader sense of her life, too.

[Charlie Harding]

Right, Right.

[Joe Rome]

And that, I think, is the takeaway for everybody here.

[Tony]

So what, she thinks she was, like, wrong about one of her albums or.

[Joe Rome]

Well, I think that is a question for everyone to answer. I don't know that I have the definitive answer. Maybe by the end of the album when we go through all the songs, I just want to put a. A flag on it. This episode is produced by Scott Poarch for Big IP and distributed by Realm. We'll see you the next episode for discussion about the next track on the life of a showgirl father figure.

[Tony]

Oh, my God. We have an outro.

[Joe Rome]

We have an outro.

[Tony]

Guys, we're in the big leagues now.

[Joe Rome]

Ciao.

[Hallie Keeper]

Welcome and enter if you dare. Hi, I'm Hallie Keeper.

[Alison Leiby]

And I'm Alison Leiby. And together we're the hosts of Ghosts of Ruined, a scary movie podcast where Hallie tells me the grisly details of a haunting new horror film each week.

[Hallie Keeper]

Whether you're a terror hound like me or a scaredy cat like Allison, we've got so many thrills, chills, and obviously kills to share with you.

[Alison Leiby]

In every episode, it's the podcast that'll have you saying, that was so funny. I should not have listened to it. At night with all the lights off.

[Hallie Keeper]

From the greats like the Exorcist and Poltergeist to modern classics such as Hereditary and get out to the freakiest new releases like A Quiet Place and Terrifier. We ruin em all and we'll leave you howling, mostly from laughter sometimes because you're turning into a werewolf.

[Tony]

Ooh.

[Alison Leiby]

Listen along as I try and guess the movie's twist, predict who will survive, and answer the hardest question of all, what would you do?

[Hallie Keeper]

So please listen to new episodes of Ruined every Tuesday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Alison Leiby]

And whatever you do, we're begging you, please keep it spooky.