Decoding Actually Romantic and the Taylor Swift-Charlie XCX feud: Are they BOTH to blame?

Summary

Podcast Summary: Decoding Taylor Swift

Episode: Decoding Actually Romantic and the Taylor Swift–Charli XCX Feud: Are They BOTH to Blame?
Date: December 2, 2025
Hosts: Joe Romm and Toni Romm

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Decoding Taylor Swift, father-daughter duo Joe and Toni Romm dissect Taylor Swift's song "actually romantic," its role as a "diss track" directed at Charli XCX, and the public feud between the two artists. They explore whether both Taylor and Charli bear responsibility for escalating tensions, analyze the lyrics and storytelling techniques in both "actually romantic" and Charli XCX’s "Sympathy is a Knife," and discuss the emotional complexity behind both tracks. The hosts draw upon their expertise in songwriting, storytelling, and generational perspectives to bring out nuances, humor, and cultural context.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Framing the Songs and the Feud

• Diss Track Dynamics:

  • Taylor's "actually romantic" is described as both "funny and clever" but ultimately a pointed diss at Charli XCX, a response to "Sympathy is a Knife" from Charli’s Brat album.
  • Charli’s song, while ostensibly not a diss, addresses deep insecurity stemming from her relationship with Taylor and the industry at large.

• Notable Relationships:

  • The hosts highlight that Taylor and Charli are close in age and share a long professional history (Charli opened for Taylor on the Reputation tour), with lingering personal and professional complexities.

• Feud Triggers:

  • Charli’s ambiguous lyrics and a pointed tweet ("sympathy is a Knife" on album release day) likely contributed to Swift’s sense of betrayal.
  • Taylor’s response, including the timing of her UK album edition to potentially overshadow Charli’s chart success, is seen as intentional (17:14).

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2. Lyric Dissection: "actually romantic"

• Verse Analysis and Subtext

  • Boring Barbie Reference (05:00–06:15):
    • Toni: “If I spent my whole life as an artist, then somebody just calls me boring, boring Barbie, that would get to me.”
    • Joe: Explains "Barbie" as historic shorthand for "vapid" or "shallow," which would stoke Taylor’s ire as a self-styled "classical poet."
  • Sexual Overtones & Humor:
    • The song’s playful yet biting tone is linked to Taylor's increased openness about her personal life and relationships (“lots of sex with Travis [Kelce],” 01:21).

• Songwriting Technique:

  • Use of hyperbole, irony, simile (toy chihuahua line), and unreliable narration ("I haven't thought of you in a long time...").
  • Joe: “She’s also telling her fans... If someone disses you, flip it. Just don’t take it personally” (10:30).
  • Toni: “What is to be understood can be understood pretty clearly by reading through. There’s not many esoteric meaning that can’t be derived from... the beef.” (10:15)

• Relating Personal Pain to Humor:

  • Taylor's approach is both a shield and a dig, as seen in “No man has ever loved me like you do,” humorously recasting Charli’s supposed obsession as affection (11:05).
  • The chorus is used as satire, flipping negative attention into something “romantic.”

• Notable Quote:

  • Toni (13:10): "Like a toy chihuahua barking at me from a tiny purse. That's how much it hurts."

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3. Lyric Dissection: "Sympathy is a Knife" (Charli XCX)

• Emotional Vulnerability:

  • Charli’s song, according to Toni, is “a remarkable opening for a song,” immediately immersing listeners in her insecurity, competition, and yearning for authenticity.
  • Toni (23:16): “Yeah. This is a space for women. I don't want to share this space I don't want to force a smile this one girl tapped my insecurities...”

• Songwriting Honesty:

  • Charli openly expresses pain and discomfort, bordering on hyperbole for effect. “Why I wanna shoot myself... I’d say there was a God if they could stop this wild voice tearing me apart...” (32:52)
  • Joe: Expresses that some lines (“fingers crossed behind my back I hope they break up quick”) make the song “harsh,” but acknowledge Charli’s honesty (33:11).

• Perception and Intent:

  • The hosts discuss how Charli’s ongoing insecurity and self-doubt made her suspicious of Taylor’s encouragement, interpreting sympathy as a knife rather than genuine support.
  • Joe (28:54): “It’s possible that what Taylor views as her being supportive, Charli takes as condescending... This is actually the classic thing... unfortunately, the chip that Taylor has on her shoulder is she doesn’t like her sincerity questioned."

• Art as Therapy—and Weapon:

  • Both hosts agree that heightened sensitivity, anxiety, and creativity feed both women’s artistry, but also their competitiveness and tendency toward misunderstanding.

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4. Broader Themes Explored

• Feminism and Space:

  • Toni asserts the necessity for women to speak for themselves on issues of female rivalry and creative competition (04:45).
  • The hosts reflect on how the music industry’s structure pits women against each other.

• Intent Versus Impact:

  • Toni (26:11): “Intent versus impact is a real thing... You did hurt the other person, right?”
  • Joe and Toni highlight the difference between what the artists meant and what was felt—and how that gap led to escalated hostilities.

• Cultural & Industry Pressures:

  • Using historical & pop culture parallels (Barbie, Shakespeare/Marlowe, Hamilton/Burr), the hosts discuss how proximity to genius can spark both inspiration and jealousy.
  • Joe (39:14): “If your personality type is one where you can’t help comparing yourself to the best in the world, then you’re going to have... [issues]. But isn’t that the nature of show business?”

• Self-esteem and Artistic Output:

  • Both Taylor and Charli’s vulnerability is noted as vital to their success but also the root of their personal conflicts.
  • Joe (42:58): “Both of these are women who feel things very, very deeply. It’s part of the reason why you become an artist."

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Taylor’s Diss Strategy:
  • Joe (11:26): “We’re a big fan of hyperbole. It is one of her big rhetorical tricks…pushing things to the next level.”
• On Toy Chihuahua Simile:
  • Toni (13:10): “Like a toy chihuahua barking at me from a tiny purse. That's how much it hurts.”
• On Intent vs. Impact:
  • Toni (26:11): “Intent versus impact is a real thing... you did hurt the other person, right?”
• On Insecurity in Art:
  • Joe (40:08): “If you happen to be unfortunate enough to become friends with one of the most phenomenally successful people in music history, you know…”
• Meta-Humor and Gender:
  • Toni (04:45): “This is just, like, not a space for men. I feel.”

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:28] Introduction of the feud and song context
• [01:13–02:57] Discussion of sexual and diss track undertones/seeds of rivalry
• [05:00–06:15] "Boring Barbie" as an insult—cultural implications
• [09:22–10:56] Taylor’s lyric strategy—flipping hate into “romance”
• [13:10–14:38] Simile analysis: “toy chihuahua barking from a tiny purse”
• [16:59–18:47] Dissection of “Gods my witness”—layered references to "Sympathy is a Knife"
• [22:30–23:40] Brat as Charli’s breakthrough, cultural/political resonance
• [23:16–28:13] In-depth breakdown of “Sympathy is a Knife” lyrics and emotional themes
• [29:27–29:54] Sympathy as support versus condescension, miscommunication
• [32:52–34:03] Charli’s raw emotional climax: “Why I wanna shoot myself…”
• [39:14–41:44] Show business, rivalry, and the Shakespeare/Marlowe/Hamilton analogy
• [42:58–43:49] Artistic sensitivity as both gift and curse
• [43:49–44:41] Offer to mediate the feud live on podcast—meta and humorous close

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Tone and Style

The conversation is witty, candid, and equal parts analytical and playful. Joe brings in historical and rhetorical context, while Toni speaks with generational insight and humor, often referencing meme culture, feminism, and her “conflict mediator” credentials in jest. Their banter is affectionate, sometimes intentionally self-deprecating, and peppered with clever asides and pop culture references.

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Conclusion

This episode offers a nuanced, entertaining, and empathetic decoding of both "actually romantic" and the surrounding feud, weaving together musical analysis, emotional insight, and cultural commentary. The hosts ultimately conclude that both Taylor and Charli reacted from places of insecurity and misunderstanding—making them both, in some sense, “to blame” for the blown-up feud. Despite the rivalry, both songs stand out as sophisticated, emotionally charged works that reflect the artists’ vulnerabilities and the cutthroat landscape of modern pop music.

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For Further Listening

Tune in next week as Joe and Toni dissect "wish lists (with dollar signs)" and continue exploring Taylor Swift’s storytelling genius.

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This summary covers all key analytical and memorable moments of the episode for those who haven't listened, with original speaker tone and segment timestamps for easy reference.

Transcript

[A]

Hi. This is Decoding Taylor Swift, where we dig into the deeper meaning of the life of a showgirl. One song each week. Today, we will transform how you think about actually romantic with the help of my swifty father, a storytelling expert recognized by Rolling Stone magazine.

[B]

Hi, I'm Jo Rome, and my daughter Antonia is great at decoding lyrics, writing, and making people laugh.

[A]

You're too kind.

[B]

Now, this is a funny and clever song, but it's also a diss track aimed at Charli xcx, who herself put a song out about Taylor on her 2024 Brat album. Sympathy is a Knife that Charlie says was not a diss track, but Taylor clearly felt dissed. We'll decode both of these songs to explain why, starting with actually romantic. So what's your take on actually Romantic?

[A]

Um, I think it's a fun song. I think, honestly, the beat, super catchy. I liked listening to it when the album first came out. I think it's funky. I think it's kind of silly. More akin to something Sabrina Carpenter would consult on. There's a sexual undertone of.

[B]

There is indeed. As many of these songs on this album have more than other albums.

[A]

I waited 10 years to do it.

[B]

Lot of sexual undertone. And apparently she's having a lot of sex with Travis. Seems kind of what's going on. And sexual overtones, by the way, started kind of little hidden in the Fate of Ophelia, where she says.

[A]

It'S about to be the sleepless nights you've been dreaming of.

[B]

Right, the sleepless night you've been dreaming of, which could be interpreted more than one way, but it's basically euphemism for, yes, lots of sex. And so this song is funny and clever, and it's one of her best diss tracks. I'll say I wish she hadn't made it so personal. But then, of course, I wish maybe Charli XCX hadn't made her song so personal. But let's.

[A]

Here's my opinion, is that Charli xcx, I mean, she wrote a whole lot of stuff. She wrote a song that I think was far more dsy to Lorde, and Lorde actually took that as an opportunity to hop on the track and kind of like them. They become friends again. Like, they kind of reconnected. And that song, which is Girl so confusing, was, I think, a lot ruder because it says stuff like you always say, let's go out, but then you cancel last minute.

[B]

Ouch.

[A]

I know. It's like she's literally like, bitch, what's wrong with you? Like, that's, like, the vibe of the song. It's not like, I hate you, but it's like, bitch, what's wrong with you? Like, what are you doing? Like, I know that it's hard to be a girl, but it's like, what are you doing? And this one, Sympathy is a Knife, is more like, ugh. Ugh, my fat Chungus life. Oh, I'm so insecure. Oh, no, there's a girl who makes me insecure, and then the girl who makes her insecure kind of goes out and kind of makes it worse.

[B]

And by the way, it is worth pointing out that they're both about it the same age. Yes. Surprising, isn't it? Yes, I. She does. And I think a lot of people may think she's in her 20s. I saw this and had to check it and mention it. Yes. But I also think that perhaps because Charli XCX is 33, that is part of the reason why she has the jealousy that she put in. Because, yeah, if she.

[A]

That makes a lot more sense because they're not even in the same space musically.

[B]

No, they're not. And we're gonna start going through the lyrics of actually romantic, and then we will, I think, quickly go through the lyrics of Sympathy is a Knife. Yes. Because I understand why Charlie may have thought it wasn't a diss track, and I do kind of understand why Taylor might have taken it differently.

[A]

But start in Taylor's defense, like, Charli XCX has said some other things.

[B]

She has said some other things. And also, when Tortured Poets Department was released, which was April 19, 2024, Charlie released a tweet, an X at 11:21am that just said sympathy is a Knife, which, of course, she didn't come out with the Brat album until two months later. Clearly, there was some issues between these two women, and it is worth pointing out that they've known each other a long time and that, in fact, she opened for Taylor on the Reputation tour.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So. Which she's intimated was not the best experience. But I don't. You know. Anyway, let's dive into this. We could just alternate paragraphs. I. I will. I heard you call me.

[A]

Excuse me.

[B]

What?

[A]

Can I do it?

[B]

Oh, yes, yes, yes, of course.

[A]

Thank you. I just, like, think that, like, I feel like women, like, are speaking for women in this moment.

[B]

You're gonna do want to do both these songs.

[A]

This is just, like, not a space for men. I feel. Okay, okay. Let me do.

[B]

Okay. All right.

[A]

I heard you call Me boring Barbie. When the cokes got you brave cocaine reference. Wow, High five. My ex. And then you said you're glad he ghosted me. Wrote me a song saying it makes you sick to see my face. Some people might be offended, but it's actually sweet. All the time you spent on me. It's honestly wild. All the effort you put in. It's actually romantic. Really? Gotta hand it to you. No man has ever loved me. Thank you. That's beautiful.

[B]

So this is cute. This is. This is clever. This is, I think, a good way to diss somebody. Yeah, right. By making it humorous. And clearly this is over the top and boring Barbie. So we're to think she's heard from a friend that Charlie has been, you.

[A]

Know, badmouthing her, calling somebody a boring Barbie's preview.

[B]

Well, if it's true, if this is. What?

[A]

If it's true what they say? Well, I think it is.

[B]

If she said boring Barbie, she didn't.

[A]

Well, I think it bothered Taylor partially because she doesn't want to be seen as kind of this, like, basic force. She wants to kind of be something. And so it would kind of get to me if I spent my whole as like an artist in my own right. And then somebody just calls me boring, boring, boring Barbie.

[B]

Yeah. Well, it's clearly meant as an insult. And I think the part that would bother Taylor is in my day and age, Barbie meant a shallow neolithic era. Right. In the neolithic era, in the original Barbies, they were known for. Well, they're not actual shapes of real women. Right. And maybe they're kind of vapid. Right. That was basically. And so Barbie was used to be vapid.

[A]

Vapid, yes. In caves, played with the little stone dolls. It was considered an insult in his culture.

[B]

In my culture.

[A]

In his culture.

[B]

Well, by the way, I should say I have not told this story before. This is an actual true story. Cause we did see Barbenheimer together. So we saw Oppenheimer and Barbie together and it all brought back memories. Cause my mother had only one rule when I was growing up. She very supportive of any woman I brought home. She was so.

[A]

Wow. She was so happy that he brought home anyone.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I think even in the. She would have been okay if you were gay, to be honest.

[B]

Right. But. But she did say. She used to say, you can bring home any woman, just don't bring home a Barbie. Like I said in those days, it was a clear insult. And so, yes, Taylor would clearly take it personally. Cause she views herself as a classical poet. Right. That's the Whole point of.

[A]

She's a tortured poet.

[B]

She is a tortured poet.

[A]

Savage.

[B]

Right. And our entire first season, we've gone into deep dives showing how she uses foreshadow and IR and metaphor. So, yes, she wrote me a song saying, it makes you sick to see my face. Some people might be offended. Right. Well, clearly she was. Oh, and I skipped the high five. My ex. Right. And then you said you're glad he ghosted me. Well, this is not subtle. All the people out there saying is, well, the fans. Some fans think this is about Charlie xcx.

[A]

Clear.

[B]

Yeah. Because, you know, Charlie XCX is. Was engaged to George, the band.

[A]

And then in 1970.

[B]

Right. And there was a three month period.

[A]

Where Taylor was dating Maddie.

[B]

Maddie Healey. And in the song the Smallest man who Ever Lived, which is a serious distract.

[A]

Ghosted. Yeah.

[B]

Right. She says, you know, you've ghosted me. So. Yeah, now you know also.

[A]

Right, Right. So know what it feels like. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So. So there's no question, right, that this is. Not yet. This is the reference.

[A]

And then ghosting somebody that you dated for three months is kind of crazy.

[B]

Yes, I would agree.

[A]

That would be crazy.

[B]

And it would be doubly crazy to do it to Taylor Swift.

[A]

No. Like, it's gone on like one or two Tinder dates. It's like. Okay, right.

[B]

Or you've listened to any of her songs. You understand that if you're gonna ghost her, you're gonn. Maybe he wanted to hear about his song. Maybe he wanted songs written about him. I don't know. Right. But it's not a big shock. But this time around, Taylor came up with a clever idea for a diss track, which was to say.

[A]

What thing popped up?

[B]

Oh, I don't know what the thumbs up are.

[A]

Wait, do a thumbs up.

[B]

I do a thumbs up.

[A]

It only does it when white man does it.

[B]

No, I don't know why it popped up.

[A]

I'm white man to the hand.

[B]

I don't know if you're saying there's some AI in here. We're using Riverside, which we recommend. And for some reason, they put a thumbs up out there, which was Sting.

[A]

It really liked what we're doing. It's listening to us. The FBI agent in charge of stalking us really likes the things we're doing here.

[B]

But, you know.

[A]

Oh, wait. What is it? Yeah, Peter Thiel. Peter Thiel is sitting on the other side of this computer and he's just kicking his feet, he's twirling his hair, he's doing A little bit of this. He loves what we're doing here.

[B]

Now you're jumping to south park references again.

[A]

Peter Thiel loves us.

[B]

So she decided to make this song over the top and. But, you know, it's actually sweet, you know, you're so obsessed with me that these are.

[A]

These are lyrics that, like, they work in the sense of rhyme scheme, but what is to be understood can be understood pretty clearly by reading through. There's not many esoteric meaning that can't be derived from, like, just knowing about the beef.

[B]

No, no. You know, exactly. And by the way, I think, personally, if there hadn't been the beef here, this would be a really great song because she's also telling her fans, Right. If someone disses you, flip it. Just don't take it personally. Negatively. Say, you know, they're. You're.

[A]

You're living rent giving you attention. She said, what is it? The. The most expensive thing in your world. In the world is your energy.

[B]

Yes, she said that on. On the. The. The podcast with. With the. The Kelsey Brothers, the football podcast.

[A]

If somebody's giving you energy, then, you know.

[B]

So this is a deeply humorous and ironic song. No Man Has Ever Loved Me like youe Do. Well, she's put this on the album where she's finally met the man who loves her the way she wants to. Right.

[A]

So I know I was thinking of that as I was walking. I was like, no, man. Like, not even, like, Travis Kelsey.

[B]

Yeah, I don't think she's dissing Travis here. I think she's just.

[A]

She's just. It's hyperbole.

[B]

Yeah, she's hyperbole. And we're a big fan of hyperbole. It is one of her big rhetorical. Rhetorical tricks pushing things to the next level. You know, Darling, I'm a nightmare, Dressed like a daydream, that sort of thing.

[A]

Although that also includes, you know, antithesis and metaphor.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That's why it's my favorite song, Blank Space.

[B]

And by the way, just gonna mention as we're recording this, the Fate of Ophelia. Seventh week as number one on the Billboard Hot 100. Now, that ties Blank Space, but she has one song, which is Anti Hero, which has eight weeks. If she stays one more week, it will tie for her longest run as a number one. And if she does it for two more weeks, it will be her longest run as number one.

[A]

It's a good song.

[B]

So I wish that.

[A]

I wish that August got that attention.

[B]

I did well, you know, back then. I think she's Much more sophisticated now at marketing. So. Okay, let's go to the second verse.

[A]

Silence your notification. Your hoes are calling.

[B]

That's Ira.

[A]

Oh, he.

[B]

He has helped me with the media over the years. Ira is not a woman's name.

[A]

Really.

[B]

So let's keep going here. You want to keep going because this is a woman's space.

[A]

It is a woman's space. Thank you for acknowledging that, Joseph.

[B]

Can you get it closer to singing?

[A]

Like. No.

[B]

Can you do some talk singing?

[A]

No. I'm going to do Sam poetry. I haven't thought of you in a long time. But you keep sending me funny valentines. And I know you think it comes off vicious, but it's precious, adorable. Like a toy chihuahua barking at me from a tiny purse. That's how much it hurts. How many times has your boyfriend said, why are we always talking about her? Did you like my slam poetry?

[B]

I did. And as we'll see when we get to Sympathy is a knife, that there is a line from her then boyfriend George. George talking to George about this woman who we know is Taylor. So now, of course, this is very much over the top. And Taylor as a unreliable narrator, right? Hadn't thought of you in a long time.

[A]

Well, you keep sending me funny valentines, but in fact, she thinks of her right now.

[B]

It may be true that when you first heard the song in 2024, you hadn't thought of her in a long time. But now it's a year later and you've written this entire song. So clearly you've been thinking about her a lot, right? And so. But she's still being huge. She's got the toy chihuahua. So she's got a very nice simile here. Like a toy chihuahua barking at me. And by the way, this is also another burn because she's saying here, I'm the big dog. You're the very little dog. You're very little dog.

[A]

I'm the big dog. She said, I got that dog in me.

[B]

Yeah, that's true.

[A]

That's beautiful.

[B]

And you know, that's how much it hurts. Now again, I. It's a good attitude to be like, this is a shake it off attitude. Right? But as we know, Taylor doesn't really shake. Doesn't really shake things off. But these are all good. How many times your boyfriend said, why are we talking about her? All right, so. And then there's a repeat of the chorus. And then we get to the bridge. Cause it's not a long song.

[A]

You think I'm tacky, baby? Stop talking dirty to Me, it sounded nasty, but it feels like you're flirting with me. I mind my business. God's my witness that I don't provoke it. And then she's like, oh, kind of makes me wet. Which means that she goes, and this is a true story. She goes into a sink and she washes her hands because that's how dirty she feels because of Charli XCX's mean comments to her. She has to wash them off.

[B]

That's exactly what it means, my 18 year old gen Z daughter. That's exactly what it means. And by the way, you know how we know that? Because in the clean version of this.

[A]

Song, in the clean version, she's like.

[B]

She switches the word wet with sweat. It kind of making me sweat. Is the clean version of this.

[A]

That's how we know.

[B]

Yes, exactly. And by the way, this is a great bridge and musically it's an amazing bridge, right? She kind of goes over top here. Musically, I like the bridge. Talking dirty to me, right?

[A]

And she does a little swing with her voice. Feels like you're flirting with me. She does that. She's like, right, yeah.

[B]

And she does. When she, when she says it's kind of making me, you know, wet, she's washing her. She immediately.

[A]

We're hesitating this.

[B]

I don't know, I don't know why.

[A]

It's just like she just turns on a sink van. And it's not like she advocated for that all 20, 20.

[B]

It's not like she's so embarrassed by the word that she immediately does the chorus straight over the word now. But this line, I mind my business. God's my witness that I don't provoke it. Well, I don't know about that, Taylor. I mean, and I think that when we get talking about sympathy as a knife and the ramifications of that, I don't think it's true.

[A]

Especially because she released Tortured Poets on the day that, like, you know, Charlie, like was going to be number one on the.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

She kind of like a Hamilton Aaron Burr situation, perhaps.

[B]

Right? So she clearly repeats itself, right, so.

[A]

Do not ever actually. We don't repeat, but we recite.

[B]

Right, so. So Charli XCX had had one number one album in Britain and this song and Tortured Poets was fluctuating on the UK chart. Sometimes number one, sometimes not. And just as Charlie XCX's album was rising up, Taylor puts out a bunch of special tracks for just the UK audience. Yes, just the UK audience. And I have actually met Charli XCX fans Who felt that was very intentional.

[A]

I mean, like, what the hell? Like, how could it not have been? That sounds like either that's just a crazy PR mistake or it's, like, intentional.

[B]

No, and I. And I think it was intentional. And we'll get to why. Again, Taylor might have been annoyed enough to do that. But let's just say that I mind my business. You know, it's not really the thing that Taylor Swift is. Yes.

[A]

I wouldn't say that she minds him.

[B]

No. And the interesting gods. My witness in sympathy is knife. Charlie also invokes God.

[A]

What does she say?

[B]

The line is.

[A]

Oh, I'd say that there was a God if they could.

[B]

Stop all these voices in her head, basically is what she's saying. So I think that's why Taylor invokes it. And this is a short song. So now we're just left with the final chorus.

[A]

That actually sucks. Like that she. If she's invoking God, that. That basically implies that she's saying that the voices in Charlie's head aren't a big deal and that she's just being dramatic. Right. She's saying that there is a God. Right. She's saying that there is a God. Making Charlie's kind of like saying, like, there's no God because God can't stop these voices in my head. Kind of ridiculous.

[B]

It could be. It's the kind of deep. It does. I think that's a very good point. I hadn't thought of that. That would be quite a snarky thing to do. And by the way, it's one of the reasons why I don't think she should have made this so anti Charlie.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Because Charlie's song. And we'll get into Charlie's song. Cause I think it's important to understand. I think Charlie misunderstood how Taylor would interpret it. I really do. Because that. For reasons that will become clear. But the point is, that song is a very emotionally open. And she's revealing things about herself that are incredibly personal. And so even if it does bother Taylor, it's also, you know, I don't think you had to go after Charlie.

[A]

I agree.

[B]

I don't think she had to go after Charlie. So we get to the chorus and you wanna do it again or.

[A]

I mean, yeah. Cause it's actually sweet. All the time you've spent on me it's honestly lovely. All the effort you've put in. It's actually romantic. I really gotta hand it to you no man has ever loved me like you do it's actually romantic You've just given me so much attention. La la la la. Romantic. It's actually romantic. It's so shoe bop bop romantic. Did you like my like little.

[B]

I did, yeah. I liked it. In the song she's running shoe bop bop in the background for the second half of this part, Shubbop, which is just being flippant I think is what she's doing here. And look, I think that as a song, independent of any personal meaning, this is a good song. It's entertaining, it's funny and it's catchy and it's good advice to her fans. Like people attack you. Look, obviously there's a lot of people.

[A]

Are gonna attack you.

[B]

People are gonna attack you.

[A]

Just laugh about it.

[B]

Just laugh about it and say, right. And by the way, that was, that was advice I was given when I was blogging, very similar thing. But the advice I was given was like don't respond. That was. See that was the next step. Taylor, if you really do not take it personally and you can be laugh about it, let it go. Right. Shake it off, right.

[A]

I mean, I feel like there has to be some other reason why Taylor doesn't like Charlie ftx. It seems kind of like.

[B]

Well, in the film version and in the track by track she says actually Romantics is a song about realizing that someone else has kind of had a one sided adversarial relationship with you that you didn't know about. And all of a sudden they start like doing too much and start letting you know that actually you've been living in their head rent free and you had no idea. And it's presenting its as them sort of resenting you or having a problem with you. But I'm taking that and you just accepting it as love and accepting his attention and affection. So she, I think she was surprised by the song that Charlie put out. She thought that they had an okay relationship is my impression. And so let's, you know, it's a little unusual. We have talked about other songs from time to time here, but let's talk about this song. It's a good song. Obviously on a, on a great album. This was. I don't, I know.

[A]

I love Brat.

[B]

I don't want to say it's her breakthrough album because she's been singing a long time, but it elevated her to the next level. Where you had the Brat summer, right. So your album becomes the whole theme of the summer. And then it became political. Right. And it was, was, was linked to Kamala. And so this really took Charlie's career To the next level. Right, right. Which is why this song is unintentionally ironic. Right. Because this song is about how she felt jealous.

[A]

Say it, don't spray it.

[B]

I want to spray it. I don't want to say it. I want to.

[A]

Don't say that you want to spray it.

[B]

I do want to spray it.

[A]

You should cut that out.

[B]

Mention so. Well, that's what we men, you know, we were cavemen. I'm not going to deny it. So do you also feel that this is.

[A]

Yeah. This is a space for women. I don't want to share this space I don't want to force a smile this one girl tapped my insecurities don't know if it's real or if I'm spiraling One voice tells me that they laugh George says I'm just paranoid says he just don't see it he's so naive I'm embarrassed to have it but need the sympathy so this is a.

[B]

Remarkable openings for a song.

[A]

Right.

[B]

For a song from a well.

[A]

Jumps right in. Right.

[B]

Jumps right in. She's again, she's the same age as Taylor, and so she says, I don't want to share the space.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Okay. And we get. She comes. She provides more detail about what she means, but she doesn't want to really be in the same space as Taylor. She doesn't want to force a smile. Right. So, okay, well, that's harsh, really, when you think about it. She may not have seen it that way, but it's like, what? So now you're saying, when you're with me, Taylor Swift, you're forcing a smile. This one girl taps my insecurities don't know if it's real or if I'm just parodying if I'm spiraling One voice tells me now this is interesting. So now she's switching. One voice tells me that they laugh so some voice in her head tells me that they. So who are they? Is that the audience? Is that the. The literati? The people who pay attention to this sort of thing? We don't really know, but she really. There's a voice in her head that says people are laughing at her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right now George says I'm just paranoid Says he just don't see it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he doesn't see the things that make her insecure.

[A]

Right. He's so naive.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I would tend to agree. I feel like maybe a little bit of paranoia on charlief's part. But honestly, like, this is just like. The music industry is so vicious towards women. It's so competitive. Like, I feel like you'd be crazy not to feel a little bit threatened by another female musician. Same age, same kind of place in her life, but doing like so much more. So I'd say Charli XCX is doing quite well for herself right now.

[B]

Well, that's the irony. This album with this song on it is the thing that elevated her to this whole other level. You know, the SNL level, right? Everything. And now she says this line, I'm embarrassed to have it, but need the sympathy. So she needs sympathy, but she's embarrassed. And as we'll see from the title of the song and then from later on, she actually doesn't believe it's genuine. Right? That's the point of the song. So we'll have to understand that. So let's do the next.

[A]

Right? Is people say all this shit, but they don't really understand what it's like to feel this insecure. And I get that. It's my opinion that you can't be genuine and still be neutral.

[B]

And that's a very interesting point. Look, I think that this is something that takes a long time to learn. Everybody has chips on their shoulders, the sore spots, right? And it happens oftentimes in a relationship that you say something that you think of, just a casual aside, but the other person, you've hit a real sore point and they. They get very angry at you and they want you to apolog. And you're like, but I didn't really say anything wrong, right? Cause I didn't mean it to mean anything. But the person interpreted that way. And then if you've been in a.

[A]

Relationship, that's why you just have to stay unserious. You just have to stay unserious.

[B]

Well, but you. And you also have to learn in this world, sometimes you're going to apologize for things that you don't fully.

[A]

Right. Understand why you're apologizing, right? Or you're apologizing for the hurt you caused, not for the act that you.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And because intent versus impact is a real thing. And to be frank, like, great, like you didn't intend to do anything wrong and that's important and that can be acknowledged. But you did hurt the other person, right?

[B]

And the person is also making a statement. You have to be sensitive in the future, right? I understand that this isn't a big deal to you, right? You are 10 minutes late, right? Right. Now, you know how much I hate it when you're late type of thing, right? This is gonna happen again in everybody's life. Let's go to second verse.

[A]

I couldn't even be her if I tried I'm opposite I'm other side I feel all those feelings I can't control oh, no don't know why all this sympathy Is just a nice. Why I can't even grit my teeth and lie I feel all these feelings I can't control oh, no don't know.

[B]

So this is my British accent. I do I kill her. I couldn't even be her if I tried I'm opposite Yeah. Right. Yes. There's no question. You're not Taylor Swift.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You don't. You don't aspire to be Taylor Swift. Your main character. Your first verse doesn't rhyme. Right. You're not.

[A]

Is that how serious?

[B]

Right, Right. You have some Right.

[A]

Juxtaposition.

[B]

Right. So the point is. Yeah, you're not. Now, I. But, yes, you did choose to open for her. I think Taylor probably thought she was helping you. Right. So. But you, obviously, it's tough every night you go out and see, whenever you're.

[A]

In a position, you know, higher socially than another person, and you think you're helping by bringing them up, sometimes it can come off as a little bit, you know, condescending. Are you doing it that way? And it's like, you know.

[B]

Well, it could be. And it's possible to view actually romantic as condescending. Right. You're just a little. You're just a little toy.

[A]

Well, of course. Well, you're not even taking her pain seriously.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You're just laughing at it.

[B]

Right. And that's what's wrong about the song. I feel all these feelings I can't control. So this is a cry for help. Okay. I mean, all this sympathy now, all this sympathy is just a knife. It is the open question who is giving her this sympathy? Right. See, I think this is the issue that maybe Charlie didn't grasp is that maybe Taylor viewed all this Sympathy is just a knife as all the encouragement that Taylor gave her at that time.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Cause obviously, her insecurities were there at the time, and we don't know what went on between them. But I imagine, you know, we know Taylor and she seems this. In the Esquire thing. I think your lyrics are great. You know, very imaginative, all this stuff. So all this encouragement that Taylor gave her, she is sort of implying that this is the. I don't want to force a smile. Right. I don't. I don't. This sympathy is a knife.

[A]

She does say this sympathy is a knife. So it kind of implies that it's like, it's continuous. It keeps happening, you know?

[B]

Right. And it's. And. And it's possible that what. In their interactions, what Taylor views as her being supportive, Charlie takes as condescending, or so I think that's my view. Right. I think this is actually the classic thing that we just talked about. Right. Which is. And unfortunately for Charlie, the chip that Taylor has on her shoulder. Right. Is she doesn't like her sincerity questioned. Right. Cause you've just written a song that that could be interpreted as saying you're not an authentic person. Right. And we know that caused. Right. She wrote Mastermind. Right. She got accused of being calculating. She does not like being accused of being calculating. Now, whether you, the audience or whoever thinks Taylor's calculating, that's a separate issue. This clearly is a sore spot for Taylor. So we ended up colliding the sore spot for Charlie with the sore spot for Taylor. And I think that's sort of why this thing blew up. And I understand that just like Taylor may not have ever thought that her encouragement could be taken as disingenuous, you know, Charlie did not think that this open, honest expression here would be somehow taken personally by Taylor. So let's get into the next verse, which is quite a bombshell.

[C]

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[A]

Why I wanna. I wanna shoot myself Volatile at war with my dialogue I'd say there was a God if they could stop this wild voice tearing me apart I'm so apprehensive now don't wanna see her backstage at my boyfriend's show Fingers crossed behind my back I hope they break up quick that. That sucks.

[B]

Yeah. That was the two lines I would have told her not to put in.

[A]

I mean, she's being honest, though.

[B]

She is being.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, fingers crossed behind my back. So now she's saying that she did the things she said she didn't want to do. I don't want to force a smile. The fact is she is.

[A]

And she was like, oh, I'm so happy for you.

[B]

Right. But then she had the fingers crossed behind her back. Right. Which is a harsh thing to say. And to wish that they break up.

[A]

Seems kind of weird, though. Like, I feel like Taylor would have noticed or just like somebody would have noticed that you'd have been crossing her toes. That's what I do.

[B]

Except you're not really. You're just metaphorically crossing your toes.

[A]

My toes are currently crossed. Right.

[B]

Wow. That is. That is a amazing capability. That. I did not.

[A]

That's kind of a humongous.

[B]

I did not know.

[A]

So you just put it a little bit over your second toe. Okay.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Well, did you know that when I got yanked out of mom, like, the doctors, like, showed me to her, and she was like, wow, that's. That's. That's my toe. She's one of mine. I mean, other than the fact that.

[B]

I was there, I can tell you that that is not exactly how it went down.

[A]

That's what mom tells me.

[B]

Is that what she tells me?

[A]

She tells me that I have the cropy toe.

[B]

Listen. I see. Interesting fact. Of course, I was the first one to hold you.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yes. They handed to me first.

[A]

That's horrible. That seems like.

[B]

Well, they're still kind of dealing with the.

[A]

Handed me to Kamala Harris first.

[B]

Well, there you go. I think. I think fine. So anyway, why I want to buy a gun? Why I want to shoot myself. Okay, that's. That's a strong reaction. Okay.

[A]

I mean, it's hard. I think she's just trying to illustrate with her words how volatile is a good word. Volatile. Her emotions are. Well, it's right. You have to say things that are. The purpose of hyperbole is that you convey emotion in the equivalent words. You know, it's kind of the vibe. Right. Whenever you speak words, people always interpret it as a little bit less. They can't feel what you feel. No, I understand.

[B]

And this is what Taylor looks.

[A]

The more they can feel.

[B]

Taylor has a great many songs in which she contemplates suicide. Right. Or a character in the song that.

[A]

Thumping off a very tall something. Just to see you come running say the one thing I've been wanting.

[B]

Right. And what's this? And the song where she's driving and she thinks about going over the cliff. But yeah, so that's harsh. I'd say there was a God if they could stop this wild voice tearing me apart. So love they.

[A]

Them. God, that's beautiful.

[B]

But also very strong. It's like, well, there's clearly no God, because if there were, he wouldn't have done this to me. Right. That's kind of what she's saying.

[A]

Which is why I think that God's my witnesses. If it's not. I mean, Taylor's very intentional.

[B]

She is a very intentional person. So, you know, I think that that was an unnecessary line by Taylor. And I think, like I said, I understand why this may have. If Taylor was shocked by this song because she thought they had a good relationship and she's sort of been a little mentor and she had been encouraging her and I helped got you to be, you know, intro for me. Right. And now, you know. Cause one of the most stinging things is ingratitude. So if she felt that rather than.

[A]

Until the whole of the Godfather happens.

[B]

Well, if I did all of this for you.

[A]

Yeah, bitch.

[B]

And I think you're talented. I'm not. I'm not being. I'm not making up my. This isn't sympathy. I'm telling you you're talented and I believe in you. And that' I had you intro for me and now you like.

[A]

I lowkey understand Charlie xcx because like, when you're. When you have anxiety and I don't know whether Charlie XCX has like.

[B]

Well, he has severe anxiety.

[A]

I have like, as somebody who also has severe anxiety, like, it can feel like you do not know who is being genuine. What. And even when you know that somebody's being genuine, you can't help but feel that it's. It's only because they don't know that.

[B]

Is her low self esteem. Right. You're talking about someone. This is a song about a person whose self esteem because she is very talented. Right? She is very talented. Taylor Swift is not being disingenuous by saying that she is a talented singer, a talented songwriter. The fact is, it's just that she. Charlie can't hear that. Right. Because she has to low self esteem. But this. Don't wanna see her backstage at my boyfriend's show. Fingers crossed behind my back I hope they break up quick. She could have cut that. I mean, she didn't need to say that to make this song.

[A]

I don't know. I think if you're being honest, you gotta be honest. But I think that that means Taylor Swift can't write kind of a. I mean, if Taylor were to write like an honest response to this, that would have been one thing. But I think that the way they handle like this type of thing is what she did on Girls so confusing. And Lorde did not take that in any sort of malicious way.

[B]

Well, some people, as we say, are able to.

[A]

We talk about making music, but I don't know if it's honest. Yeah. I can't tell if you want to see me falling over and failing. You can't tell what I'm feeling. I think I know how you feel. Like she's. I mean, she's saying some pretty crazy things about Lorde.

[B]

Right. And maybe Lore is more understanding and Taylor. Right. They have a different relationship.

[A]

They do. And Lorde is also kind of more success wise. Comparable to like.

[B]

Yes. Right.

[A]

Though both of them are incredibly successful, even at another level.

[B]

Well, right. I mean, again, if you want to go around your life.

[A]

Right. Compared to dick sizes and one is 7 inches and one is 8 inches, it's like both of you are fine. But it's true that eight inches, you know.

[B]

Well, but then if you look, to.

[A]

Continue with the metaphor, you know, it's hard because like 8 inches is like that's not what it's supposed to be. Okay, I need a reduction at that point. And that's some of the critique on Taylor Swift.

[B]

Look, if you choose, if your personality type is one where you can't help comparing yourself to the best in the world, then you're going to have, you know.

[A]

But isn't that the nature of show business? Doesn't show business kind of engineer you to have that mindset?

[B]

But the point is. Yes. Well, you mentioned Hamilton and Aaron Burr. Right. Hamilton. Aaron Burr was intensely insecure.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Right. So he couldn't stand and Obviously, you know, Hamilton was an unbelievably productive person. Right. He did most insanely productive. Insanely productive.

[A]

Crazy levels of productivity.

[B]

He did most of the Federalist Papers.

[A]

Right. Yeah.

[B]

That was the he.

[A]

Hamilton wrote the other 59.

[B]

Right. So again, if you happen to be unfortunate enough in your life to become friends with one of the most phenomenally successful people in music history.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know that you're gonna have to.

[A]

Well, my point is that you're remembered for everything you put out these days.

[B]

Yes. We don't know. All I'm saying is that if. If you. If. Let's say you happen to be best friend with William Shakespeare.

[A]

I know, that's crazy. Yeah. Let's say you're Kit Marlow.

[B]

Right. And there were. Right. There were many competitors there.

[A]

And many plays have been written about. You're Kip Marlowe.

[B]

Right. And right.

[A]

Christopher.

[B]

What's his name? Look, we all have people we compare ourselves to. If you happen to be.

[A]

Who are. Was Kit Marlowe a real guy?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Interesting facts. Yes, he was. That's correct. Because of the one play that is famous.

[B]

Thank you for agreeing with my accurate statement. Thank you for. For that. I feel. I feel like I'm. Now I'm GPT5 and have to acknowledge that anything I say could be inaccurate. But my daughter acknowledged.

[A]

Yeah, you're welcome. Well, I was just gonna say I feel like, like Forbes fact checking. It should all be just fact checked by some woman somewhere. It'll probably, like, figure them out. Yeah.

[B]

So, you know, I think it's the.

[A]

Play that I'm thinking. What's the play?

[B]

Which play? What?

[A]

Christopher Marlow's kind of famous play.

[B]

Oh, oh, Dr. Faustus.

[A]

Yeah, that Faustus.

[B]

Faustus, Right. Faustus. Right. Which is the. Selling your soul. And so it just goes to show, no matter how successful you are, there's someone more successful. And unless you happen to be the most successful person in the world. But even Taylor Swift. The point is, here's Taylor Swift.

[A]

That you have to be on a podcast with somebody who is far more successful at doing this podcast, specifically this podcast, than you are. I'm so sorry about that.

[B]

It cuts me like a knife.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

But the funny thing is that Taylor Swift, who is the object of the envy, is a very insecure person. Right. She has a lot of insecurities. That's the whole course of her life. She fell. She couldn't just write this song. As this is a great diss track. I've got to really go after this person. And, you know, we would call it Punching down, but she felt that she was punched first. But the point is, she didn't have to.

[A]

No, she didn't have to write in that way.

[B]

No, she didn't have to write in this way. And like I said, I think both of these songs are great songs. If either of them had ever been like, oh, I know Joe Row, I'm gonna see what she thinks. I'd be like, this is a great song.

[A]

You could tweet if they wanted to talk to old guy.

[B]

Yes, well, you could. You can tweak some.

[A]

I would have gone to Hillel first.

[B]

Well, I would just say. I would just say yes. But look, I get both of these are women who feel things very, very deeply. It's part of the reason why you become a artist, right? People, if you're. If you don't feel things strongly, you probably aren't going to become an artist. You'll find some other occupation. So. So I hope that they can podcaster. And by the way, if in an effort to reconcile you two, you'd like.

[A]

To both come on the live freaking.

[B]

Come on the podcast, I think we would welcome you on the pod.

[A]

Come on, Charlie. XCX Taylor Swift meet up on Decoding Taylor Swift when.

[B]

Yeah, and we can go through these lyrics.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And we can analytically, we're gonna distance ourselves from the emotions of these and we'll just go through word by word with you and understand what, why you put these things in. Because all we can do is make our best informed opinion.

[A]

And I just want you guys to know that I am a trained conflict mediator.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

I went to a few training sessions back at my high school. I will help you work through. We will have a talking piece. This can be our talking piece. And we will have something to center us. Ooh, this is too bright colored. Maybe we're gonna have a CO2 monitor because we all, at the end of the day will die from climate change. So we'll have this to center us. We'll discuss and we'll think to ourselves, let's talk it out, let's talk it through. Because Taylor Swift is a girl. And as we've established, it's confusing to be a girl. Girl. So confusing. Established that. And you know, I feel like if we all as women lend ourselves grace and non binary people too, I don't think men need grace, but men and women and non binary people need grace. I think we all, I think women and non binary people need grace and I think we should extend that to them. Well, and with that.

[B]

We appreciate as always this the POD is doing really well.

[A]

We hit if you're a man who listens to the pod like you're great, like you don't you also deserve we.

[B]

Have a lot of men who listen to the pod. We hit number 72 on trending podcast on Spotify. So we're very grateful. We love your comments. Please leave comments. Please review us and tell your friends and we will see you next week when we discuss wish lists. Interesting with the dollar signs. Ciao.

[A]

Adios.

[D]

Hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. You know one of the perks about having four kids that you know about is actually getting a direct line to the big man up north. And this year he wants you to know the best gift that you can give someone is the gift of Mint Mobile's Unlimited Wireless for $15 a month. Now you don't even need to wrap it. Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[A]

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[E]

See mintmobile.com oh, the Regency Era. You might know it as the time when Bridgerton takes place or the time when Jane Austen wrote her book books. But the Regency Era was also an explosive time of social change, sex scandals, and maybe the worst king in British history. And on the Vulgar History podcast, we're going to be looking at the balls, the gowns and all the scandal of the Regency era. Vulgar History is a women's history podcast, and our Regency Era series will be focusing on the most rebellious women of this time. That includes Jane Austen herself, who is maybe more radical than you might have thought. We'll also be talking about queer icons like Anne Lister, scientists like Mary Anning and Ada Lovelace, as well as other scandalous actresses, royal mistresses, rebellious princesses, and other lesser known figures who made history happen in England in the Regency era. Listen to Vulgar History wherever you get podcasts.