Decoding Champagne Problems’ many double meanings and the big question: Is it really about Taylor?

Summary

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Decoding Taylor Swift

Episode: “Decoding ‘Champagne Problems’ Many Double Meanings and the Big Question: Is it Really About Taylor?”

Hosts: Joe Romm & Toni Romm

Date: April 24, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Joe and Toni Romm dissect Taylor Swift's song "champagne problems" from her album evermore, exploring its intricate storytelling, literary techniques, and the ambiguous meanings threaded throughout the lyrics. Together, they unravel the song’s surface narrative about a rejected marriage proposal and venture into deeper questions: Is there a second, more personal meaning? Does the term “champagne problems” trivialize or shine a light on real pain? The Romms highlight how Swift's songwriting teaches powerful lessons for communicators, writers, and anyone intent on crafting captivating narratives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Power of Beginnings: Starting at the End

• Structure: The hosts observe that "champagne problems" begins not in the middle of the action ("in media res") but at its very end — post-breakup, post-proposal ([03:16]).
  • Quote:

    “This song doesn't begin in the middle of the action. This song begins at the very end. And the sad.”
    — Joe ([03:16])

• Literary Parallel: Toni likens the structure to Zora Neale Hurston’s Their Eyes Were Watching God, where the narrative unfolds from the conclusion ([03:27]).
• Effect: This approach heightens the sense of melancholy and reflection, as the listener is thrown into the aftermath of heartbreak.

2. Metaphor, Imagery, and Double Meaning

• Night Train Motif: The opening lyric evokes isolation—leaving "under the cover of night" signals both secrecy and pain ([03:55]).
  • Compare: "Midnight Train to Georgia" as another cultural signifier of sorrowful departure ([04:15]).
  • Quote:

    “It's not just like you're leaving. It's like you're leaving at night. ...Who wants to take that train? People who don't want to be around other people...”
    — Toni ([03:55])

• Vivid Vignettes: Swift uses snapshots—"dropped your hand while dancing," "crestfallen on the landing"—to paint emotional scenes ([06:48]).
  • Metaphorical yet rooted in plausible romance scenarios.
• Champagne Problems as Irony:
  • The title phrase mocks the trivialization of emotional pain as "rich people problems." Joe and Toni discuss whether heartbreak can be both minimized and deeply affecting ([08:31]).
  • Quote:

    “It's an ironic name... these little pieces of pain, they feel small, but you can make them a whole song of how painful it feels.”
    — Toni ([08:31])

3. Line-by-Line Dissection: Notable Lyrics & Interpretations

• "Crestfallen on the landing":
  • Multiple possible meanings: a stair landing, a boat landing (with symbolic resonance to champagne being used to christen ships, per Joe) ([10:19]).
  • Quote:

    “When you launch a ship, you christen it with a bottle of champagne.”
    — Joe ([11:07])

• "Your heart was glass, I dropped it":
  • Universal yet specific; possibly a "champagne glass" for thematic unity ([10:08]).
  • Quote:

    “It's probably not just any glass. A champagne glass.”
    — Joe ([10:06])

4. Narrative Technique & Song Structure

• Chorus-As-Verse:
  • Unlike most pop songs, the choruses here are structurally verses, advancing the narrative with musical continuity ([17:05]).
  • Quote:

    “She only repeats ‘champagne problems.’ And because she has a long story to tell.”
    — Joe ([17:19])

• Repetition of Key Words:
  • “Reason” is deployed multiple times to underscore the clash between rationality and emotion, echoing themes of sanity and madness ([18:11]).
  • Quote:

    “This song is about reason versus madness, if you will.”
    — Joe ([18:18])

5. Literary Devices: Ambiguity & Multiple Voices

• Double Entendre and Ambiguity:
  • Swift’s use of phrases like “sister splashed out on the bottle” can mean buying an expensive bottle or literally champagne splashing, a classic double meaning ([18:45]).
• Narrative Perspective:
  • Dominant use of second person—rare in songwriting—draws listeners into an intimate emotional vantage ([20:23]).
  • Quote:

    “This is like a close second person, you know, no crowd of friends applauded. ...He thought a bunch of friends applauded. He had this whole speech. He was so excited.”
    — Toni ([20:56])

• Hometown Skeptics:
  • Reflects Swift’s broader outlook on facing public doubt and criticism ([21:49]).
  • Quote:

    “Hometown skeptics is...how she views her life, is that there's always this group of skeptics around.”
    — Joe ([22:03])

6. The Bridge: Emotional & Lyrical Peak ([22:27] - [23:24])

Standout Quotes & Analysis:

• "Your Midas touch on the Chevy door / November flush and your flannel cure":
  • "Midas touch" carries both a positive (golden, perfect) and a cursed meaning—turning everything, including relationships, into something unattainable or objectified ([24:53]).
  • Quote:

    “He seems like he's always perfect, but then he just turns her into a commodity, perhaps makes her feel like an object.”
    — Toni ([24:44])

• "This dorm was once a madhouse / I made a joke, well, it's made for me":
  • Could be literal (a dormitory built from an asylum) or metaphorical (her own sense of madness) ([25:56]).
  • Quote:

    “She's self aware that she has mental problems.”
    — Joe ([27:09])

• "Our group of friends don't think we'll say that word again":
  • Debated meaning—what is “that word”? “Evergreen”, “friends”, “our”, or another, with intentional ambiguity ([27:32]).
• "One for the money, two for the show":
  • Classic lyric allusion, used here with irony—it’s a setup for letting go ([28:42]).
  • Quote:

    “Yeah, she's being very self deprecating, self ironic with that line.”
    — Joe ([29:54])

• "She would have made such a lovely bride / What a shame she's fucked in the head, they said":
  • Shock, societal judgment, and self-blame all wrapped in plain language. Toni notes it’s a double standard and a powerful self-own ([30:53]).

7. Final Verses: Letting Go & Moving On ([31:41])

• The narrator imagines a future where her ex is with someone new, who will never drop his hand or leave him crestfallen—an acceptance mingled with lingering pain ([32:34]).
• Quote:
  > “It's a pretty straightforward ending, but it's also like...kind of brutal. Sometimes the simplest endings...Well, life often isn't always so complicated as to end complicatedly. Sometimes it ends simply.”
  — Toni ([32:38])

8. The Big Question: Is This Song Truly About Taylor?

• Swift has spoken publicly about mental health struggles. Joe asks whether the phrase “champagne problems” trivializes real pain or critiques that very trivialization ([35:07]).
  • Quotes:

    “Does she think that these are champagne problems? Or is she trying to show that problems that get dismissed as champagne problems are in fact, really, really serious?”
    — Joe ([35:22]) “The lesson of this song is that there kind of isn't a lesson that some things just, they hurt. And you know, you can trivialize them and you can say they're just champagne problems, but they do hurt.”
    — Toni ([35:53])

• Discussion on fame’s double-edged sword; real heartbreak versus public perception of “first world problems” ([36:32]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the song’s standing ovation at Eras Tour:

  "It's the song in the Eras tour where she gets the very long standing ovation."
  — Joe ([00:42])

• On teaching communication:

  "This podcast will not only transform how you think about Swift's songs, but also give you the life changing tools to lead, connect and change the world."
  — Joe ([00:12])

• Personal Touch: Brief digression about language, growing up and communication between Joe and Toni ([11:19]–[14:00]), revealing authentic father-daughter rapport.

• Advice for Listeners:

  "Note to guys out there, bit of a risky matter if you're gonna do this event in public...Ask. Don't surprise the girl."
  — Joe ([33:46])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:20 — Introduction to "champagne problems"
• 03:16 — Song structure: Beginning at the end
• 04:15 — Night Train symbolic meaning
• 06:48 — Lyric imagery: vignettes, metaphorical montage
• 08:31 — "Champagne problems" as ironic minimization
• 10:08 — “Champagne glass” metaphor
• 17:05 — Chorus as evolving verses
• 18:11 — Repetition of “reason” and themes of rationality vs. madness
• 22:27 — The bridge: lyrical and emotional analysis
• 24:53 — “Midas touch” double-edged curse
• 27:32 — Ambiguity: What is “that word”?
• 28:42 — "One for the money, two for the show" as playful reference
• 30:53 — Societal judgment: “What a shame she’s fucked in the head…”
• 35:07 — The big question: Is this song about Taylor? First-world pain vs. public perception
• 36:32 — Fame, vulnerability, and judgment

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Final Thoughts

Joe and Toni’s analysis turns “champagne problems” into a case study in emotional storytelling—a song that uses ambiguity, metaphor, narrative perspective, and self-referential wit to pose larger questions about love, mental health, and the social framing of pain. With wit, warmth, and deep literary insight, the hosts reveal why Taylor Swift’s songwriting offers universal lessons in persuasion and narrative. Anyone looking to write or connect on a deeper level has much to learn from this masterclass in decoding meaning—both hidden and overt.

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Next Episode Tease:

• The last evermore track—“tolerate it”—before the show dives into Reputation.

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

[Joe Rowe]

Hi, I'm Joe Rowe and I'm his daughter Toni. Welcome to Decoding Taylor Swift where you'll learn the storytelling tools Swift uses that make her a modern day Shakespeare, but

[Toni Rowe]

can make you a better communicator so you can drive your mission and build your tribe.

[Joe Rowe]

This podcast will not only transform how you think about Swift's songs, but also give you the life changing tools to lead, connect and change the world.

[Toni Rowe]

This episode we are doing probably other than Willow, my favorite off of Evermore, we are doing champagne problems. Which champagne problems learned how to play on the piano. Piano. And I was going to do that, but unfortunately no rooms with piano are free at 4:30pm well, it's a great song.

[Joe Rowe]

It's the song in the Arabs tour where she gets the very long standing ovation.

[Toni Rowe]

Ours was like freaking two and a half minutes, bro. I know, it's crazy.

[Joe Rowe]

I mean, people competed to give it longest. It's interesting that they chose this song. Not an upbeat song. Not, you know, it's certainly one of her greatest songs. She has a lot of greatest songs. But this is one of those songs where there's a lot of words with multiple meanings and her usual ambiguity, metaphorical ambiguity and you know, song has a clear meaning on the surface. But the big question for we'll get to at the end, is there a second meaning underneath? As so often happens, sure. In her songs. Okay. My daughter once again will sing.

[Toni Rowe]

I will sing. I know this song very well.

[Joe Rowe]

Excellent. And people have been listening longer.

[Toni Rowe]

Oh, well, thank you guys.

[Joe Rowe]

But yes, we did get last week the highest daily hour consumed total of 922 hours. So let's try to get it up to 1,000. Let's try.

[Toni Rowe]

Oh, let's try. Let's try. Yeah. Tell your friends, tell your ex wives.

[Joe Rowe]

Let's why don't. Let's kick it. Let's do it.

[Toni Rowe]

Yeah. Just getting the notes. Let me lock in. Let me lock in.

[Taylor Swift (singing parts)]

You booked the night train for a reason. So you could sit there. This hurt.

[Toni Rowe]

Bow, bow, bow.

[Taylor Swift (singing parts)]

Bustling crowds or silent sleepers. You're not sure which is worse.

[Toni Rowe]

Nice. Yeah, nice.

[Joe Rowe]

And this song has a lot of long pauses. There's like I think 23 seconds. Just.

[Toni Rowe]

Well, it's a long song. It's about four minutes and four seconds.

[Joe Rowe]

But the lyrics aren't that long.

[Toni Rowe]

No, they are not.

[Joe Rowe]

There's just these long pauses. So this is one of her unusual openings in the middle.

[Toni Rowe]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

Or at the end. Actually, I was going to say maybe this. You know, they use the narrative Technique in media Rays of starting and media res. Yes.

[Toni Rowe]

Although in media. Reyes. I'm just kidding. I love you. No, it's rez and media res.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, it's interesting that the Google didn't think so. This song doesn't begin in the middle of the action. This song begins at the very end. And the sad. And.

[Toni Rowe]

And this is like Zora Neale Hurston's Their Eyes Were Watching God. I was just talking about that. A lot of books and. And literary techniques involve starting at the very end, telling the story.

[Joe Rowe]

Yes, actually. And so does Citizen Kane.

[Toni Rowe]

I've never seen that because I'm not

[Joe Rowe]

laying what is considered to be one of the greatest movies of all time. So you booked the Night Train for a reason. Okay, so this is the hook. Why. Why have you booked a Night Train?

[Toni Rowe]

Oh, oh, so you could sit here. There in this hurt. I think, like, obviously, the Night Train very. I think it's a very visceral image that is immediately painted. I mean, like, the Night Train is. It's not just like you're leaving. It's like you're leaving at night. You're leaving under the COVID of night. Who wants to take that train? People who don't want to be around other people, because not a lot of people are out there taking that train.

[Joe Rowe]

And let's remember one of the most famous songs of all time, Midnight Train to Georgia.

[Toni Rowe]

Yeah, that's true.

[Joe Rowe]

Another. Another very sad song. I'm leaving on that midnight train to Georgia, because the singer had failed in Hollywood, has to return home.

[Toni Rowe]

A long train just taking up, like, an airplane.

[Joe Rowe]

Midnight train.

[Toni Rowe]

Hop on Spirit Airlines. Cheap flights.

[Joe Rowe]

So this guy is hurting.

[Toni Rowe]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

And she goes on. I mean, bustling crowds are silent sleepers. You're not sure which is worse. So she just wants us to feel this hurt for a while. That is such a deep hurt. This guy doesn't know if he'd rather be around a whole crowd who doesn't know what he's going through or just sitting alone by himself, but he does.

[Toni Rowe]

I think why he ultimately chooses being alone by himself is, I was listening to the Smith songs. Heaven knows I'm miserable now. I'm actually doing great. I'm like, fine. I mean, like, you know, living the single life. But yeah, just the lyric. Two lovers entwined Pass me by and heaven knows I'm miserable now. I feel like that's probably a telling reason why he probably chose isolation. Because you go outside and what do you see? All these freaking happy people who don't understand what, like, misery Feels like in that moment. And of course, they do understand. It's just when you're melodramatic, you want to be melodramatic alone sometimes.

[Joe Rowe]

So now let's get to the chorus.

[Toni Rowe]

Sure.

[Taylor Swift (singing parts)]

Because I dropped your hand while dancing? Left you out there standing crestfallen on the landing?

[Toni Rowe]

Champagne problems?

[Taylor Swift (singing parts)]

Your mom's ring in your pocket? My picture in your wallet? Your heart was glass, I dropped it.

[Toni Rowe]

Champagne problems? Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

All right.

[Toni Rowe]

Seeing the very bottom of my vocal range.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah.

[Toni Rowe]

Low volumes. I could do it if I were screaming, but, you know. Champagne problems. There you go.

[Joe Rowe]

Okay, so drop.

[Toni Rowe]

She's like an alto. She's like a mezzo soprano. What is she. Hold on. You keep talking.

[Joe Rowe]

Because I drop your hand while dancing.

[Toni Rowe]

She's like a mezzo soprano. That's what I thought. Her vocal tone is light rather than heavy. I think I'm a mezzo. I don't know. I mean, this is, like, a lot. This just paints a beautiful scene. I love how I told you to continue and then I just started talking. That's what I do a lot.

[Joe Rowe]

Seeing your picturing from these words.

[Toni Rowe]

Right. It's vignettes, but it's like. It's like the way that she paints the scene. It's like when you look in a photo album of, like, play by plays of like, one compact story. Like a vignette or like, even a montage. Montage, Yeah. I dropped your hand while dancing. Right. Left you out there.

[Joe Rowe]

More figurative, do you think?

[Toni Rowe]

I think it can. I mean, obviously it's both. So, like, she's. She's painting a picture with actions, but they represent, like, larger themes in their romance. So, like, I dropped your hand while dancing? Left you out there standing like we were. They were dancing together. They were, like, in a relationship. And then she dropped his hand, and he was just left out there standing crestfallen on the landing. Champagne problems. I think.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah.

[Toni Rowe]

The. The term champagne problems, which I assume is what you were getting out with the.

[Joe Rowe]

Now.

[Toni Rowe]

Now. Yeah. Champagne problems. Why is it called that? Well, it's. It's this type of. Of soap opera way to minimize kind of say, oh, champagne problems. These are rich people problems. These are just. These are kind of like, oh, man. Like, I mean, which is fair. You know, people are out here, like, starving people. There's several wars going on. The US Is currently involved in some, let's just say to keep it light, suspicious actions that perhaps are not the best use of our funding. But, you know, that's neither here nor there. But a lot of people Would say that this is just some trivial everyday stuff. Heartbreak happens every day. You know, there's many people are getting together as breakup every day probably. But, you know, it's champagne problems. These are just. But it's like. Yeah. And it's an ironic. It's an ironic name.

[Joe Rowe]

It's ironic.

[Toni Rowe]

And she's writing about how painful it was. How like these little vignettes of life, these little pieces of pain, they feel small, but you can make them a whole song of how painful it feels, you know?

[Joe Rowe]

Absolutely. Now left you crestfallen on the landing.

[Toni Rowe]

Crestfallen is a good word.

[Joe Rowe]

Crestfallen is a good word.

[Toni Rowe]

Crestfallen. Landing.

[Joe Rowe]

That's antithesis and crestfallen. You know, she kind of ate with that.

[Toni Rowe]

That one.

[Joe Rowe]

The bowed head. But what's the landing?

[Toni Rowe]

I mean, like the balcony of like a dance hall, I'd assume. Interesting, the landing, but also like, just to keep with the dancing metaphor. But if you're not talking. If you're talking about the actual. The metaphor, the figure. The figure that it's representing, the landing would be, you know, moving up a level in a relationship. And the landing would be, you know, engagement, it seems, because he had his mom's ring in his pocket and his. Her picture in his wallet, which is. It's to carry around somebody's picture in your wallet. You're saying they're part of your family, you know.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah. Well, the mom's ring. The mom's ring handed down, that's a very, very big deal. That's the heirloom.

[Toni Rowe]

Your heart was glass. I dropped. It is just. That's. That's. My creative writing teacher just says, like, you know, using visceral imagery that we all know, we all have assumedly presumably dropped glass on accident as a child. I did that very often.

[Joe Rowe]

It's not. It probably not just any glass. A champagne glass.

[Toni Rowe]

Champagne glass, yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

Now the landing. Yeah. So it's interesting people. Many people, if you go online, think the landing is a landing in a fancy stairs.

[Toni Rowe]

Yeah, that too.

[Joe Rowe]

I never. I always thought it was a boat landing.

[Toni Rowe]

Boat landing. Very silly. Billy.

[Joe Rowe]

Oh.

[Toni Rowe]

Cause, yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

The dock left you out there standing.

[Toni Rowe]

Right. That's why I thought it was like a balcony, like outside.

[Joe Rowe]

Right.

[Toni Rowe]

And she went back inside and then she left.

[Joe Rowe]

I. My best friend had a boat, so I always thought in terms of landing. But the other thing that got me thinking that, of course, is that you on landings, aside from the fact that rich people would have a landing, is that when you launch a ship, you christen it with A bottle of champagne.

[Toni Rowe]

Oh, so that's just.

[Joe Rowe]

That's how my mind worked.

[Toni Rowe]

That's beautiful, Father. That's, like, beautiful. Like, that's beautiful.

[Joe Rowe]

That's beautiful. In this case, it was christened, but not really.

[Toni Rowe]

This was really just to diverge a little bit. Like, really interesting. I was just thinking, like, I don't know, like, you become friends with people because you appreciate their minds, and you're like, oh, wow, like, that's really cool. But you kind of really don't have, like, a choice of, like, who your parents are. And I don't know, it's just been weird, like, getting to know you as, like, a person, as, like, not my full dad, but, like, an actual human being who's like, not just father, not human father. Like, you know, I will say I feel like I enjoy your company and presence. Oh, that's apart from you being my father.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, you can imagine my great pleasure in watching you grow up from a baby who could not communicate any other way but crying.

[Toni Rowe]

That is. I did do that.

[Joe Rowe]

And I will say I like to think I jumped.

[Toni Rowe]

I jumped also. I liked jumping. That's what mom has told me. I cried and then I jumped.

[Joe Rowe]

You were also very curious and observant and you were always looking around. But for me, one of the great joy. Fascinating things in life is watching you acquire language and becoming better and better at communicating from the very first use.

[Toni Rowe]

Oh, yes, I used to fan. I remember when you guys tried to teach me ASL and then failed miserably.

[Joe Rowe]

When you were born, there was a little wave of, oh, you can teach kids as sign language before you can teach them words. And you got that one word. We had a fan, indoor fan. And you would do this when I

[Toni Rowe]

wanted the fan turned on.

[Joe Rowe]

We would turn the fan on. And you like to see the fan turned on.

[Toni Rowe]

I loved it. I was like, oh, it's fitting. Oh, my gosh.

[Joe Rowe]

I thought it was a good idea simply because it sent a message to your infant brain that I can get. If I can learn how to communicate, I can get something I like.

[Toni Rowe]

Yeah. So anyway, I think I got that message. I think I got that message. I was just fat fascinated because the fan, like, like, it would. It's just like, in my baby brain. I remember the exact, like, thinking I had of why I was so fascinated with the fan. I was like, because it's like, three. Oh, my God. Peter Thiel is, like, fascinated by, like, infantile psychology. Thank you, Peter. Deal. So anyway, it was like this, like, rotating thing, right? Like, rotating Fan. We've all seen a fan. Presumably it goes like this and it's like a solid three pronged thing. You look up at it and it's just like. It's like this. It's like this. And then all of a sudden it creates like a full circle, like as it starts rotating. I was like, how does that happen? What's going on? Like, I want to figure that out. Like, what's happening?

[Joe Rowe]

Yes.

[Toni Rowe]

And yeah, I was just fascinated by that until. And sometimes it would go so fast that it looked like it was spinning in the other direction. And I was like, yes. How does that happen?

[Joe Rowe]

Well, you know, the learning about object permanence is a very important thing for a kid. You know when you think, oh, they've disappeared, right. You can't.

[Toni Rowe]

And then they like, yeah, right. I like that as a kid.

[Joe Rowe]

Anyway, go on with verse.

[Toni Rowe]

All right. La la la la la la la.

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[Taylor Swift (singing parts)]

Okay, you told your family.

[Toni Rowe]

Whoa. Okay. To any singers out there that are women. I received a tip from my director in this musical that if you want to get breath support for your diaphragm, you should quote, unquote, breathe through your vagina is what it feels like. Just let that air go down because that's how it gets into your diaphragm. Not like in up, but like breathe and like imagine it like. Yeah. Anyway, so let me lock in. Okay?

[Taylor Swift (singing parts)]

You told your family for a reason, you couldn't keep it in.

[Toni Rowe]

Yeah. So no.

[Taylor Swift (singing parts)]

Your sister splashed out on the bottle. Now no one celebrating. Don Perry on, you bought it. No crowd of friends applauded. Your hometown skeptics called it champagne problems. You had a speech. You're speechless Love slipped beyond your reaches and I couldn't give a reason Champagne problems.

[Toni Rowe]

Anyway, yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

So you did the second verse and the chorus.

[Toni Rowe]

Yeah, I had to turn my volume off. Like, I couldn't hear you because I was getting feedback on your end. But did that sound okay? Like, was that, like. That was like, a fine recording. Okay, cool. I was, like, getting into it,

[Joe Rowe]

so now this. One thing that's interesting about this song is that its choruses are all verses.

[Toni Rowe]

They are all verses, but they have the same progressions musically, which is for a reason. Because she wants to show continuity among. Like, they want. She wants to show structure and continuity, but she doesn't want to. Like, actually, she wants to continue with the story.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah. This is a straight narrative. She only repeats champagne problems. And because she has a long story to tell.

[Toni Rowe]

She does.

[Joe Rowe]

And as you say, she does it with pastiches, with the montages. So you told your family for a reason.

[Toni Rowe]

Yes. You're supposed to get that. That is, you told your family that you were going to propose.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. Now, this is the second time she's used the word reason, and she's going to use the word reason a third time in the chorus that you just did.

[Toni Rowe]

Yeah. Oh, my God.

[Taylor Swift (singing parts)]

Wait.

[Toni Rowe]

Oh, my God. There's parallels, right? It says you blanked the blank for a reason versus you told your family for a reason is you blanked the blank for a reason. And that's the same as the very first verse. And this is the second verse, and it starts the exact same way.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. And again, in. In narrative structure in poems, the repeated word is important. This is the poet saying, I'm repeating this word because it's an important word. Now, reason does matter in a song about a crazy person. And that's what this song a crazy, to use the extreme or madhouse. But the point is, this song is about reason versus madness, if you will.

[Toni Rowe]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

And so I like the repetition of the words. I like what she's doing here. Of course, your sister splashed out on the bottle. Now, splashed out is a. Is a. Is a slang term or idiom or whatever, in theory, meaning she spent a lot of money. It could also mean. I mean, because it's a champagne bottle, you could imagine taking the cork out and it's splashing out. So it's certainly not impossible that that's the other meaning.

[Toni Rowe]

Right.

[Joe Rowe]

And no one's celebrating. So. But. But. So, yeah. Now, so the sister splashed out on the bottle. So if. If we're supposed to mean that she bought a bottle, then he bought another bottle. He bought.

[Toni Rowe]

He brought Dan Perrion.

[Taylor Swift (singing parts)]

Yeah.

[Toni Rowe]

And then. But. But obviously, no crowd of friends applauded. We can assume. I mean, we don't know the specifics of how he proposed, but, you know, everybody in the hometown found out that, like, somebody, like, she said no. And. Yeah, you had a speech. You're speechless. Love split beyond your reaches. And I couldn't give a reason. You know, she couldn't give a reason for why she said no. But she's later just gonna say, like, sometimes you only know when you're being asked, just down on one knee, and then in the moment, you're like, no.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. And she likes to do this.

[Toni Rowe]

You had a speech. You're speechless.

[Joe Rowe]

A great. A great line. A Taylorism. No crowd of. So you're right. So no crowd of friends applauded. We don't know if that's literally that. There's a bunch of people. Friends there, too.

[Toni Rowe]

I never took it literally. I just thought, like, this is getting into his. Like, this is like a close third person, and we're like, perspective. I mean, in this case, it's second person, which is very rarely used, but when you're getting close into it, it's like you can hear the thoughts of the character. Like, he thought this. So this is like a close second person, you know, no crowd of friends applauded. That's how I've always interpreted it. Like, he thought, like, a bunch of friends applauded. He had this whole speech. He was so excited. Like, fuck. This is like, oh, why is she saying no to me? This is so sad. I don't know. Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, this is a narratively sophisticated song.

[Toni Rowe]

Yes, it is.

[Joe Rowe]

This is a very well thought out song. I think that anyone who wants to be a writer, songwriter, poet, writer, whatever, can learn a lot from this song. The ambiguity. Your hometown skeptics called it champagne problems. Now, did the hometown skeptics call it champagne problems, or did the hometown. Or is it your hometown skeptics called it. Like, they had predicted that this relationship would crash and burn. Because I'm.

[Taylor Swift (singing parts)]

Yeah, that's.

[Toni Rowe]

I guess that makes more sense. I always assume that they called it champagne problems, but. No, that definitely makes sense.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah, I think so. Because.

[Toni Rowe]

Yeah, like. Yeah, like. Yeah. I think that makes a lot more sense, actually. Like, your hope. Yeah. I don't know why I never thought of that before, but, like.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah, obviously now, you know, hometown skeptics is the. Kind of. Is a very Taylor type phrase, which is sort of how she views her life, is that there's always this group of skeptics around, you know, I think

[Toni Rowe]

that's kind of a healthy way to view it. I mean, not so healthy. It's better than viewing, like. It's better than, like, being like Donald Trump where you have a group of yes men around you who it's like, you know, nobody's doubting me. And then it's not like skeptics. Skeptics is kind of a neutral word to use. So I'll just go through the bridge. How about that?

[Joe Rowe]

Let's do the bridge. One of the longest of her bridges. We had a long bridge the last time too.

[Toni Rowe]

Well, let me do it.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Toni Rowe]

I'll go until shred.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah, just don't do the last chorus. But.

[Toni Rowe]

Okay, let me get that note.

[Taylor Swift (singing parts)]

Your maddest touch on the Chevy door November flush and your flannel cure this storm was once a madhouse I made a joke well, it's made for me how evergreen Our group of friends don't think we'll say that word again and soon they'll have the nerve to deck the halls that we once walked through One for the money, two for the show I never was ready so I l so I watch you go. Sometimes you just don't know the answer. Til someone's on their knees and asks you she would have made such a lovely bride. What a shame she's fucked in the head, they said but you'll find the real thing instead she'll patch up your tapestry that I shredded.

[Toni Rowe]

Wow.

[Joe Rowe]

So that's a wow bridge. Taylor's known for her bridges. This is certainly up there, one of the best uses of the word fucked up, but yes. So let's go through this. Your Midas touch on the Chevy door. So what does that mean? What is she saying?

[Toni Rowe]

Like, everything turns to gold when he touches it. Right.

[Joe Rowe]

So does that. It's a hard door to open, but he's always able to open it. What is. How is he demonstrating his Midas touch on that door? That's just.

[Toni Rowe]

I've always interpreted it like. I don't know, because the next one I thought of it. That it's just like, you know, he's just like, opening it. He's just, like, sparkling. He's like, golden. He's like, always perfect, you know, could

[Joe Rowe]

be he's opening the door for her and that's.

[Toni Rowe]

He's just the perfect guy. Like, he's the perfect guy. And there's no reason why she should say no. But she's fucked him up so she has to say no.

[Joe Rowe]

But to be clear, of course, in the myth, the Midas touch was a curse, right? Because King Midas wanted.

[Toni Rowe]

It's like a double edged sword. Like, he seems like he's always perfect, but then he just turns her into a commodity, perhaps makes her feel like an object.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah, it's a very, you know, remember Midas touch. Because King Midas wanted to be able to. Whatever he touched turned to gold. But then it turned out he turned his daughter to gold. His food, his water turned to gold. And so it's. It was, yes, a double edged sword. And not understanding all the ramifications of his wish. And in some sense, that's what happened to the boy here. He didn't understand all the ramifications of what he was asking for.

[Toni Rowe]

Well, and also they, presumably they met in college. Like, this is like. But Taylor Swift has never. I mean, she did not go to college.

[Joe Rowe]

She did not go to college, but

[Toni Rowe]

she does have an honorary doctorate from nyu, which I think is justified.

[Joe Rowe]

And November Flush. And your flannel cure, presumably she got cold, he gave her flannel sweater or whatever flannel thing. This dorm was once a madhouse, is what he said.

[Toni Rowe]

They're visiting probably, right? I made a joke. Well, it's made for me, right? So I actually that could be very literal. You know, like he's saying to her, oh, did you know that this, this dorm, they remade it from like an asylum? And then she, oh, well, it's made for me,

[Taylor Swift (singing parts)]

you know, because that makes

[Toni Rowe]

more sense that they are meeting in college, they're going into this dorm. He's saying, do you know this dorm was once a madhouse? And she's like, well, it's made for me.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah, I always took it metaphorically that.

[Toni Rowe]

I always took it metaphorically too. But now I'm looking at it and I'm like, but I agree, this storm was once a madhouse. Like, I don't know.

[Joe Rowe]

No, you would say this dorm is a madhouse because it's right. In other words, if you were trying to be metaphorical, you wouldn't be talking about how it was in the past. If you're saying it's a crazy place to be. Yes, yes, I get it. I'm here. I am down.

[Toni Rowe]

You're clocking my tea. You're like on the same wavelength. Yeah, you get it. You get it.

[Joe Rowe]

I am down with that possibility. You, you could be right. And the point is she's self aware. She's self aware that she has mental problems.

[Toni Rowe]

She is right. The evergreen supports that. You know, they're a group of friends. There they were. What's it? Fair weather friends. Evergreen friends. You know,

[Joe Rowe]

evergreen means forever.

[Toni Rowe]

They're always friends, right?

[Joe Rowe]

Yes.

[Toni Rowe]

Yeah. But they turn out to be kind of fair weather friends because they say, don't think we'll say that word again.

[Joe Rowe]

Now the question is puzzle debated on the Internet. What word? What word is it? Is it evergreens? Is it group? Is it friends? Or is it the word?

[Toni Rowe]

Or is it the word how.

[Joe Rowe]

I think it's the word. Our.

[Toni Rowe]

She never says the word how.

[Joe Rowe]

She means he. And the two of them are never going to use the word hour again. That's sort of the most pathos. But the point is, I think.

[Taylor Swift (singing parts)]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

Some intentional ambiguity. If she wanted to be clear, she could have been.

[Toni Rowe]

Well, I think it's friends because. And soon they'll have the nerve. Clearly, she's not very friendly with them anymore. And soon they'll have the nerve to deck the halls that we once walked through.

[Joe Rowe]

It could be. I'm not.

[Toni Rowe]

But it could also be an other. They like. They like the people who live in the dorm. Now they're decking the halls that we once walked through. They're moving on. Life is just moving on from this pain. That could be a possibility, too. One for the money, two for the show. I don't. I mean, that's obviously an Elvis reference and several other artists use it, but

[Joe Rowe]

it was the songwriter Perkins who grabbed this from an idea by Johnny Cash, apparently. But yes, whether it refers to the song. The most famous use of it is in 1 for the money, 2 for the show, 3 to get ready, now go, cat, go. The opening of one of the great songs of all time, Blue Suede Shoes. Whether it is meant to refer to that song, which is a kind of a perverse song in which the shoes are the most important thing to him. And you can do whatever you want him, you can burn down his house, take his money. Right. Just lay off of my blue suede shoes. So I don't know whether, you know,

[Toni Rowe]

I think it's like. I mean, one for the money, two for the. Two for the show, something for the something, and then ready, set, go. I think she ends that phrase with go as well. Yeah, he's saying, like, you know, 1, 2, 3, I'm gonna let you go. It's kind of like a joke.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, one for the money, Two of the show is from a children's rhyme.

[Toni Rowe]

Right. I think that it's kind of like a fun inner songwriter's Joke, illusion. Because a lot of songwriters use it.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah, she is being very self deprecating, self ironic with that line. In other words, she's. And as we've seen, she has often written downbeat songs with upbeat music.

[Toni Rowe]

Right. This is not even that. This is just downbeat song, downbeat music.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. But the one for the money, two for the show is upbeat.

[Toni Rowe]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

It's the beginning.

[Toni Rowe]

One for the money, two for the show. I never was ready so I watched you go. Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

So it's a pretty brutal line. Sometimes you just don't know the answer. Someone's on their knees and asks you. So that's a. That's.

[Toni Rowe]

That's a pretty obvious, like down.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah, that's a very literal line, but it's also a very meaningful line. She hadn't.

[Toni Rowe]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

Which implies in part that she hadn't

[Toni Rowe]

really thought about it.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah. But she hadn't come to a conclusion.

[Toni Rowe]

Yeah. Right.

[Joe Rowe]

And then she would have made such a lovely bride.

[Toni Rowe]

What a shame. She's fucked in the head, they said. And yeah, she's blaming it on herself. She's like, there's no real reason except it must be me why I'm rejecting you. But of course, you know, Midas touch. Maybe he's not himself, you know.

[Joe Rowe]

And let's remember we're talking about what, a 22 year old?

[Toni Rowe]

I mean, seriously, they are young.

[Joe Rowe]

They're young and. And went to. So. Yeah, so they're young. But you'll find the real thing instead. You'll. She'll patch up your tapestry that I shred. Another. Nice.

[Toni Rowe]

Yeah, I can just sing that.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah, let's do it.

[Toni Rowe]

If you want. Shred.

[Taylor Swift (singing parts)]

Hold your hand.

[Toni Rowe]

Okay.

[Taylor Swift (singing parts)]

And hold your hand while dancing Never leave you standing crestfallen on the landing. Shit.

[Toni Rowe]

With champagne problems.

[Taylor Swift (singing parts)]

Your mom's ring in your pocket. Her picture in your wallet. And you won't remember all my sham pain problems do.

[Toni Rowe]

It keeps going.

[Taylor Swift (singing parts)]

Do do. You won't remember all my champagne problems.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah, yeah. It's. It's. So she is imagining this other woman, the woman that he ends up with just holding her, not dropping the hand,

[Toni Rowe]

not dropping the hand.

[Joe Rowe]

Not leaving him alone on the landing.

[Toni Rowe]

It's a pretty straightforward ending, but it's also like. It's kind of brutal. I mean, sometimes the simplest. It's the simplest endings that are just. Well, life often isn't always so complicated as to end complicatedly. Sometimes it ends simply.

[Joe Rowe]

In the prologue, she described the song as. You know, the one where longtime college sweethearts had very different plans for the same night, one to end it and one who brought a ring. Which isn't actually quite true because she didn't have a plan, according to her, she didn't have a plan to end it. She didn't know until that moment. I mean, we don't know for sure that she knew that he was going to propose because she would have said something to him. Like, I'm not certain. I mean, in other words, we're not. Again, she doesn't have to be that specific in the narration, but it's still up to the listener to decide, did she know or was she totally caught off guard and she just. In the moment, that's what I felt. Which, by the way, note to guys out there, bit of a risky matter if you're gonna do this event in public.

[Toni Rowe]

Yeah. Don't tell your family about it beforehand.

[Joe Rowe]

Ask. Don't surprise the girl. I know you guys, like, maybe I don't want to speak for that. But you're just taking a very big risk. Find out in advance. And if she says, I'm not ready, then you won't go through that episode.

[Toni Rowe]

Right.

[Joe Rowe]

And now you know. So the question is, I think the big question about this song, which has a lot of words with double meanings, is to whether the song itself is got an under meaning, a secondary meaning, or a deeper meaning having to do with the fact that Taylor herself has spoken about her mental problems. You know, she said in 2019, I definitely don't feel good all the time, and I don't think anybody does. There have been times when I needed to take years off because I just felt exhausted or I felt like really, really low or bad, which is kind of depression. And she's also said it can feel at times if you let your anxiety get the better of you. Like everybody's waiting for you to really mess up and then you'll be done. So she even views her mental problems as other people rooting for them.

[Toni Rowe]

Yeah, that's a terrible world to live in. I mean, I struggle with anxiety. Like, I have, like, diagnosed like generalized anxiety disorder. It's like, not fun.

[Joe Rowe]

No.

[Toni Rowe]

It can make you feel like anything is just waiting for you to fail and you will fail inevitably.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, you can get into a spiral and this. So the question is, does she think of these when she uses the word champagne problems repeatedly? I think this is a central question to ask about the song. Is she really. Does she think that these are champagne problems? Or is she trying to show that these are really, really serious problems? Problems that get dismissed as champagne Problems are in fact, really, really serious problems for the people involved or could be. And you just don't know.

[Toni Rowe]

I think the lesson of this song is that there kind of isn't a lesson that some things just, they hurt. And you know, you can trivialize them and you can say they're just champagne problems, but they do hurt. But at the same time, like, yeah, these are the, these are the things we call champagne problems. And it to a certain extent, like, yeah, he's gonna find somebody else. She won't like you know, dancing. She. She won't. You won't remember her, but, you know. Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, I think that, you know, Taylor herself has been accused of having third world problem, you know, I mean, first world problem.

[Toni Rowe]

Right. First world problems, which is certainly true, I think. I don't know, this whole game of who has it worse. Which it's very objectively true that like people being bombed right now in Iran have it way worse than I do. Having a few midterms coming up. But it's also true that, you know, if you're, if you're a pop star, you know, and a bunch of people even in your generation, like, hate you, like, they hate you. That sucks. I mean, like, that's gotta feel horrible.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah. And look, fame, we all know, is a double edged sword and there is a price to be paid for it. And that's. You know, she sings about that on Life of a Showgirl, you know, and you'll never, you know, you don't know how a showgirl lives and you're never ever gonna. Right. So, you know, so she is always partly saying, you can dismiss this as the problems of a rich, wealthy singer, as some people do, but it doesn't make them any less real for me and my friends. So I'm just saying that's clearly in this song, that, this song, just by

[Toni Rowe]

virtue of her writing a song called about ironically tidying it. Champlain Pro. Yeah. Also I do have to go because I have a shift in five.

[Joe Rowe]

Oh, five minutes.

[Toni Rowe]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

All right.

[Toni Rowe]

But it's okay. I'm like three minutes away from where I'm doing it.

[Joe Rowe]

All righty. Well, let's just say. Just want to say the. The next week is the last of the evermore. Tolerate it.

[Toni Rowe]

Tolerate it. Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

And then we get into reputation, so. Bye bye, my daughter.

[Toni Rowe]

What about folklore?

[Joe Rowe]

No, no. In the ERAS tour concert set list which I hold up for all to see.

[Toni Rowe]

Oh, it's reputation then it's folklore. That's looking crazy. Oh, it's reputation then it's Speak now. Then it's folklore. That's okay. Crazy.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, she only has one one.

[Toni Rowe]

I love Reputation. I love Reputation. So I'm excited. Are you ready for it? Okay, bye. I love you guys. Bye.

[Joe Rowe]

All right, bye. So long.

[Patrick Picklebottom Narrator]

From the parents behind Law and Order comes a mystery the whole family can enjoy. Patrick Picklebottom Everyday Mysteries Step into the whimsical world of Patrick Picklebottom, a precocious 11 year old with a love for reading and an uncanny ability to solve mysteries. Inspired by the beloved children's book of the same name, this podcast vividly brings Patrick's tales of deduction and everyday adventures to life as he unravels baffling enigmas and solves clever cases. Patrick Picklebottom Everyday Mysteries is perfect for kids and is just as entertaining for grownups who love a good mystery. The whole family can listen now. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Glass Cannon Podcast Narrator]

The war is over and both sides lost. Kingdoms were reduced to cinders, an army scattered like bones in the dust. Now the survivors claw to what's left of a broken world, praying the darkness chooses someone else tonight. But in the shadow dark, the darkness always wins. This is old school adventuring at its most cruel. Your torch ticks down in real time, and when that flame dies, something else rises to finish the job. This is a brutal rules light nightmare with a story that emerges organically based on the decisions that the characters make. This is what it felt like to play RPGs in the 80s. And man, it is so good to be back. Join the Glass Cannon podcast as we plunge into the shadow Dark every Thursday night at 8pm Eastern on YouTube.com theglasscannon with the podcast version dropping the next day. See what everybody's talking about and join us in the Dark.