Decoding Willow: Solving the mystery of Swift’s most ambiguous #1 song and its countless Cardigan callbacks

Summary

Decoding Taylor Swift – Episode Summary

Episode Title:

Decoding Willow: Solving the mystery of Swift’s most ambiguous #1 song and its countless Cardigan callbacks

Hosts: Joe Romm & Toni Romm
Date: April 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into Taylor Swift's enigmatic song "Willow" from her Evermore album, exploring its ambiguous lyrics, mysterious themes, and manifold connections—especially to her earlier track "Cardigan." Joe and Toni, true to the show's ethos, use "Willow" as a lens to teach storytelling tricks that Swift employs to turn her songs into persuasive, memorable, and viral art. The episode includes live singing, witty commentary, and both serious and playful analysis, making it both an artistic and technical breakdown of Swift’s craft.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Cultural and Historical Context of "Willow"

• COVID Era Creation (03:00):
  Swift wrote Folklore and Evermore during pandemic-induced isolation, tapping into mystery and introspection.

  “We have to, in our minds, go back, you know, six years. Traumatizing, but crucial, I think, to understanding songs from folklore and Evermore, particularly Evermore, which is a bit more kind of mysterious.” (01:43 – Joe)

• Chart-Topping Achievement (01:12):
  Swift had both the number one song and album simultaneously for the second time in history, first with “Cardigan,” now “Willow.”

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2. Decoding the Title and Imagery of "Willow"

• Literal and Figurative Willows:
  • “Weeping willow trees, perhaps among the most famous.” (02:08 – Joe)
  • Lyrics create tree-themed metaphors of bending and flexibility under external forces (“life was a willow and it bent right to your wind”).
• Will-o'-the-Wisp Motif (02:24):
  • Toni explains: “They're like little blue thingies or yellow thingies... lots of light in the Highlands that lead travelers away from where they were supposed to be.” (02:37)
  • Joe notes the ambiguity (methane, phosphorescence, metaphor for being led astray).
• Visual Storytelling
  • Strongly recommend watching the “Willow” music video:
    “The final shot in the music video for Cardigan is the same as the first shot in the music video for Willow.” (04:19 – Joe)

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3. Lyric Analysis: Layered Meanings, Puns, and Ambiguity

Opening Verse and Cardigan Callbacks (05:16)

• Metaphors of water, wine, and current—multiple puns and double meanings:
  • “You can make wine from currants, C-U-R-R-A-N-T.” (08:37 – Joe)
  • “Lost in your current like a priceless wine” is both emotional and literal, echoing Cardigan’s aquatic visuals.

Emotional Tone and Relationship Dynamics

• Repeated Themes of Confusion and Yearning:
  • “This is a pretty standard thing in her songs that she can't read guys that well.” (08:09 – Joe)
  • Toni: “She clearly likes him more than he likes her.” (13:35)
• Ambivalent Language Choices:
  • “When you combine stray, begging, and wreck, you know, these are not positive words.” (13:38 – Joe)
  • Words such as “begging,” “wreck,” “stray” emphasize a sense of desperation and lack of control.

Desperation & Witchy Undertones

• Swift as Mastermind, Witch, and Manipulator:
  • “Willow was about intrigue, desire, and the complexity... I think it sounds like casting a spell to make someone fall in love with you.” (17:11 – Joe, quoting Swift)

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4. Connections to Cardigan and Broader Swiftverse

• Musical and Lyrical Continuities:
  • Opening visuals, ships lost at sea, references to trains ("my train can take you home"), “scars,” and thematic through-lines all connect Willow to Cardigan.
  • “This is all back a reference to cardigan, which is one of the reasons why I have trouble seeing this as such a positive relationship.” (27:47 – Joe)
• Swift’s Signature Songcraft
  • “As a writing technique, it's a very powerful one to create ambiguity this way.” (30:56 – Joe)
  • Toni and Joe dissect how Swift’s ambiguity is not just lyrical, but structural—playing with song structure, refrains, and bridges unconventionally. (10:48)

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5. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Literary and Analytical Gems:

• “The more that you say, the less I know... that’s what they say to their math teacher.” (11:40 – Joe)
• “I think, if you search for too much meaning in these types of songs, it's gonna take away from the artistry of the vagueness.” (35:38 – Toni)
• “A bait and switch is not a work of art. It’s a sneaky thing to do in a relationship.” (29:14 – Joe)

Wit and Playfulness:

• Running gag about Lake Titicaca and making puns:
  • “Because it says kaka in it. That's why it's funny.” (03:32 – Joe)
  • “Me and Lake Titty Kaka are very serious people.” (06:03 – Toni)
• Toni’s live Joe impression:
  • “I can do a really good Joe impression. Can I try?” (25:38 – Toni)

Pop Culture & Swift Deep Cuts:

• Discussion of “Willow” as a possible reference to Willow from Buffy the Vampire Slayer (17:35).
• 90s trends—cardigans and Clueless—called out for meta-resonance (24:19).

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:24–02:08: Song introduction, COVID context, and title ambiguity
• 04:19–05:47: Music video visual connections to Cardigan
• 05:16–09:06: First verse lyric breakdown and double meanings
• 11:19–13:38: Chorus dissection; desperation and relational imbalance
• 14:16–16:09: Second verse; mythic and “witchy” elements
• 17:11–17:42: Taylor Swift’s own reflections & witch metaphor
• 21:22–24:49: Bridge analysis & “come back stronger than a 90s trend”
• 25:05–29:04: Final lyrical twists; “open shut case,” “bait and switch”
• 33:20–34:06: Song finale and repetition’s emotional power
• 35:06–36:32: Hosts reflect on meaning, storytelling, and ambiguity

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Final Reflections & Takeaways

• Artistry in Ambiguity:
  Both hosts agree: Willow is structured to resist easy interpretation, reveling in poetic ambiguity and open-ended emotion.
• Communication Tools:
  Listeners are encouraged to borrow Swift’s playbook—layered metaphors, resonant callbacks, and ambiguity—as tools for more memorable storytelling and audience connection.
• Emotional Resonance:
  The song’s huge popularity is attributed not to a clear love plot, but to the ability to capture a specific emotional “vibe” of yearning and confusion—especially poignant during the isolation of the pandemic.

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For New Listeners

If you haven’t heard the episode, expect:

• Lively, multi-generational analysis with humor and depth
• Frequent callbacks to Swift’s larger body of work
• Close reading of lyrics peppered with pop culture, personal anecdotes, and plenty of singing
• Analytical tools you can apply in your own creative or professional communication

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “We have to, in our minds, go back, you know, six years. Traumatizing, but crucial, I think, to understanding songs from folklore and Evermore.” (01:43 – Joe)
• “In the lyrics, she says ‘life was a willow and bent right to your wind’—so obviously... she’s talking about a willow, that’s branches bend to the wind.” (02:12 – Toni)
• “Open shut case—case of wine.” (08:32 – Joe)
• “I think that if you search for too much meaning in these types of songs, it’s going to take away from the artistry of the vagueness.” (35:38 – Toni)
• “As a writing technique, it’s a very powerful one to create ambiguity this way.” (30:56 – Joe)

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Suggested Listening (for Deeper Experience)

• Watch the "Cardigan" and "Willow" music videos back-to-back
• Listen closely to the repeated words in Willow (“begging,” “wreck,” “stray”) and ponder their emotional shading
• Compare the themes to "Cruel Summer," "Mastermind," and “Cardigan” for Swift’s evolving narrative styles

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This summary is designed for both Swifties and passionate communicators looking to level up their craft, just as Taylor does—one ambiguous, achingly lovely lyric at a time.

Transcript

[Toni]

Hi, I'm Joe Rome and I'm his daughter, Toni.

[Joe Rome]

Welcome to Decoding Taylor Swift, where you'll learn the storytelling tools Swift uses that make her a modern day Shakespeare.

[Toni]

What can make you a better communicator so you can drive your mission and build your tribe.

[Joe Rome]

This podcast will not only transform how you think about Swift's songs, but also give you the life changing tools to lead, connect, and change the world.

[Toni]

This episode we're talking about one of my actually all time favorite songs by her and I think one of the world's all time favorite songs, which is Willow. And it's at least, at the very least, one of the all time favorites to come out of the COVID era and the twin albums which were Folklore and Evermore. This is a track on Evermore and this is just a fantastic and amazing song. And I mean, the lyrics, they're very hard to decipher, but it's very clear that there was thought put into them.

[Joe Rome]

This is definitely one of the most ambiguous, mysterious songs, were a lot of puns in this song, a lot of phrases whose meaning isn't clear. But yes, this is a powerhouse song. This song was the number one song.

[Guest Singer]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

On a number one album. And that was the second time in history an artist had the same. The number one song and the number one album the first week.

[Guest Singer]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

And the.

[Toni]

What was the first time?

[Joe Rome]

Folklore Cardigan.

[Additional Commentator]

And

[Joe Rome]

so, yeah, she was crushing it now, you know, this was the pandemic. We have to go back, unfortunately. We have to, in our minds, go back, you know, six years.

[Toni]

Traumatizing.

[Joe Rome]

Traumatizing, but crucial, I think, to understanding songs from folklore and Evermore, particularly Evermore, which is a bit more kind of mysterious, I think. So.

[Additional Commentator]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

And the title of the song, Willow can mean a lot of things.

[Additional Commentator]

Yes.

[Joe Rome]

Willow. Weeping willow trees, perhaps among the most famous.

[Toni]

Yeah. And I mean, in the lyrics, she says life was a will and bend right to your wind. So obviously they're shut right there. She's talking about a willow. That's branches bend to the wind.

[Joe Rome]

Yes. Now, another possible meaning that, that the English teacher from Swiftly Sung Stories points out, big fan. Is willow the wisp.

[Toni]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

And this is what a willow the wisp is.

[Toni]

Yeah, it's those things from Brave, like the Merida things. They're like little blue thingies or yellow thingies. They're like lots of light in, you know, the Highlands that lead travelers away from where they were supposed to be.

[Joe Rome]

Right. And again, probably based on butter or

[Toni]

fireflies, stuff like that.

[Joe Rome]

Well, there's Some people.

[Toni]

Physics fireflies aren't really indigenous to that area.

[Joe Rome]

No, there's. It could be phosphorescence. Some people say that it could be the methane from the bogs. Many I did look that up because there's a whole science debate.

[Toni]

Methane from the Boggs is really interesting. I'm a big fan of, like, if you guys go on TikTok and you, like, search Spooky Lake Month, I'm a big fan of that girl. Like, I love learning about, like, Lake Baikal. Like, she's a big fan of, like, Titicaca. That's my favorite Titty Kaka. And why is that funny, dad? What's so funny about that silicon?

[Joe Rome]

Because it says kaka in it. That's why it's funny. Not what you thought I was going to say, is it my daughter?

[Toni]

It was. It was. But it's a very respectable lake. Lake Titicaca. It's home to the Lake Titicaca frog.

[Joe Rome]

This song is also one of those songs that you do have to watch the music video.

[Toni]

Yeah. I didn't get a chance to do that, but I'm sure it includes Will o' the Wisp because that's what my dad was texting me about all week.

[Joe Rome]

Well, it has the green. A lot of this green glowing stuff throughout the video.

[Toni]

Oh, I think that I've seen it. I saw it a few years ago.

[Joe Rome]

Yes. The other Keith reason that you have to watch the music video.

[Toni]

Yeah. Is because my dad wants you to.

[Joe Rome]

Is because the final shot in the music video for Cardigan.

[Toni]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

Is the same as the first shot in the music video for Willow.

[Toni]

That's crazy.

[Joe Rome]

She is. She, Taylor is sitting there on the piano bench facing you. There are two candles. She's wearing the cardigan.

[Toni]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

And this time she's going to go back into the piano just like she went into the piano for the Cardigan video. So a lot of connections to Cardigan, as we will see in this song. And so let's dive in.

[Toni]

Let's dive in.

[Joe Rome]

Antonia is going to sing.

[Toni]

I am going to sing.

[Guest Singer]

I'm like the water when your ship rolled in that night Rough on the surface but you're cut through like a knife and if it was an open shut case I never would have known from the look on your face Lost in your current like a priceless wine.

[Toni]

How's that?

[Joe Rome]

That was great. A lot of what does it mean going on here.

[Toni]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

I'm like the water where. When your ship rolled in that night. Okay. Rough.

[Toni]

It's like.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah.

[Toni]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

Rough on the surface, but you cut through like a knife.

[Toni]

Right. Like you cut through the water so you reveal the calm and the beauty on the underside.

[Joe Rome]

Yes.

[Toni]

Also, it's rough on the surface. Like you're navigating the rough scenes. You're able to navigate it.

[Joe Rome]

Basically, yes. Also, perhaps a sexual undertone.

[Toni]

Okay, okay, Joe.

[Joe Rome]

Surprised you didn't bring that up.

[Toni]

Why would I do that? I'm like a respectable person.

[Joe Rome]

Like, I'm like, you're a respectful 19

[Toni]

year old in college. Me and Lake Titty Kaka are very serious people.

[Joe Rome]

And of course, cut through like a knife. This also echoes Cruel Summer.

[Additional Commentator]

The more that you say. I'm begging for you to take my hand Wreck my plans. That's my man.

[Joe Rome]

Summer's a knife.

[Toni]

Yeah. Oh, my God. Yes, it does. That's what I was thinking of.

[Guest Singer]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

You cut me to the bone.

[Toni]

Yeah. And if it was an open shut case, and everyone I know from looking

[Joe Rome]

in your face, like, okay, so what does that mean? Do you think?

[Toni]

I always thought that she was just being crazy there, that she needed to go somewhere.

[Joe Rome]

This is one of the hard lyrics in the song, if it was an open shut case. So an open shut case, of course, means a.

[Toni]

It's easy to tell what the case is. You just open it and you're like, okay, boom. That's who did it.

[Joe Rome]

The evidence is overwhelming. And apparently, according to genius, Taylor loves true crime.

[Toni]

I think that it's probably her saying, like, I didn't know whether you liked me that way or not. It was kind of like you were just mesmerizing.

[Joe Rome]

Right? So let's.

[Toni]

I don't know how you feel about

[Joe Rome]

me, so let's say that it means if you just fell for me, let's say as hard as I apparently fell for you.

[Toni]

Right.

[Joe Rome]

I never would have known from that look on your face. So his look was mysterious or poker face. Whatever it is, he's not revealing his face.

[Additional Commentator]

Right?

[Toni]

And the fact that she uses wine as the next thing, like, nobody, okay? Like, sommeliers will tell you that there's like a thing that means dry and round, but I've gone to a wine tasting in it and let me fucking tell you, no difference. None. It doesn't mean anything. They lie to you and they're like, oh, can you taste the, like, apple? And I'm like, it tastes like wine. And you know what? Maybe that makes me unrefined. And maybe our more refined listeners will say, hey, I'm wrong. Because you know what? You know what? You are pretentious. You are pretentious. And so is Taylor Swift. I'm just kidding.

[Joe Rome]

Well, look, he's a mysterious guy. By the way, this is a pretty standard thing in her songs that she can't read. Guys, Guys. That well.

[Toni]

Right, right.

[Joe Rome]

We see that. We saw it in.

[Toni]

Which is fair.

[Joe Rome]

I feel like they don't make any other songs. It's. It's. I. I would also say open shut case. Case of wine.

[Toni]

Oh, that's true. You know, like Joni Mitchell's I Drink a case of you. But she also uses case to mean

[Joe Rome]

other things because it's clear she's putting this other pun lost in your current. Like priceless wine. You can make. You can make wine from currants. C U R R A N T. Oh, my God. People have pointed that out.

[Toni]

So that's smart. No, she definitely did that on purpose. That's smart.

[Joe Rome]

And. And, you know, there's also this thing where people search for ancient wine bottles in shipwrecks.

[Toni]

Right.

[Joe Rome]

Because they can be very old and.

[Toni]

And intact and valuable still.

[Joe Rome]

And priceless. Yes. But you might not know how they taste until you open them up. Right. Because you don't know what's been going on. They're preserved.

[Toni]

Has he been eating his pineapples?

[Joe Rome]

Let's just say so.

[Guest Singer]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

This is an opening of mystery.

[Toni]

Right. Of mystique.

[Guest Singer]

It's true.

[Joe Rome]

And she's lost.

[Toni]

She's lost right now.

[Joe Rome]

She has lost in your current. He is the one that is making the waves, and she is. Maybe there's a whirlpool or the rough seas, but whatever it is, she's lost at sea. Which I would note is also really a reference to the Cardigan video.

[Toni]

Right.

[Joe Rome]

Because the second half of the Cardigan video, she's just lost the sea with the piano.

[Toni]

Right. Or the Cardigan video is a reference to both of these songs because she wanted to say.

[Joe Rome]

Right. These are all bubbling up in her head. And, you know, there wasn't a lot to do in the pandemic.

[Toni]

Right. As we all know.

[Joe Rome]

And. Unless, of course, you're Taylor Swift and then you're just.

[Toni]

And then you're writing songs and you're

[Joe Rome]

writing two classic albums that hit songs.

[Toni]

Right.

[Joe Rome]

Okay, so now we get to the. Whatever it is. Pre. Chorus.

[Toni]

Yeah. I always thought this was the chorus, but I guess so.

[Joe Rome]

Does Genus think this is the chorus? Yes. So the second life was a willow is the bridge.

[Toni]

I think

[Joe Rome]

was a willow is verse two.

[Toni]

I think it's a refrain. I think it's a refrain. And I don't exactly know what a refrain is, but it's something that's repeated.

[Joe Rome]

Let's just say this is not the usual way. She usually. She usually has much more standard. But again, she is experimenting here. This is.

[Toni]

She is.

[Joe Rome]

This is probably her most experimental album in some sense.

[Toni]

These sets. Yeah, these sets of albums. These two.

[Additional Commentator]

The more that you say the more that you say the less I know Wherever you stray oh, I'm begging for you to take my hand Wreck my plans that's my man.

[Toni]

Or whichever sounds better.

[Joe Rome]

It's okay. Hey, you know you can make this song your own. I. I've been listening all these auditions on America's Got Talent and the Voice and all that, and people sometimes tweak the songs. Yeah. But. Okay, the more that you say the less I know so she's.

[Toni]

Well, because he is serious, right?

[Joe Rome]

And I saw people. People commenting on the video that they say. Well, that's what they say to their math teacher.

[Toni]

That's so true.

[Joe Rome]

The more that you say the less I know Wait, math is actually the

[Toni]

least confusing subject this quarter. I can't lie. Okay, well, that's why it's Spanish. But then it's math. Math makes sense.

[Joe Rome]

Yay. Wherever you stray, I follow. Okay, so this is the first worrisome word I would say this because stray is not a good word to use for a guy or gal, but in this case, for a guy. And this, again, also connects to lovers. Where you go, I'll follow But stray is much stronger. And then another equally worrisome word. I'm begging for you to take my hand. Yeah, that's desperation.

[Toni]

Yeah, but it's like she just wants this dude to say, yes, I'm into you.

[Joe Rome]

Right. And this is a standard for her. Right. As she did in Cruel Summer. Right. I love you. That's the worst thing I ever heard. So, yes, she falls fast. This is pretty standard in a lot of her songs. And now we get to wreck my plans. That's my man. Now, I'll just say if you read what other people say about this song. Most people put a positive spin on this song, as if this is a good relationship, but there's a fraction. There's a. Let's say a minority.

[Toni]

No, I mean, she clearly likes him more than he likes her.

[Joe Rome]

Right. You know, the question of how toxic we're supposed to believe this relationship is remains unclear throughout the song. And you can pick whichever one you want because she is using some words here. I mean, when you combine stray, begging, and wreck, you know, these are not positive words. So she is singing, even though she is very into him, she is choosing words that are. Have a negative connotation. So let's now get into the second verse, not the chorus, but.

[Toni]

So second verse.

[Joe Rome]

Yep.

[Guest Singer]

Life was a willow and it bent right to. We all win. Head on the pillow. I can feel you sneaking in as if you were a mythical thing. Like you were a trophy or a champion ring. But there was one prize achieved to win.

[Joe Rome]

All right.

[Toni]

Yeah. I mean, I can keep going through, but.

[Joe Rome]

So life was a willow. We have the title of the song

[Toni]

and it went right to your wind.

[Joe Rome]

Right. So we seem to be talking about a willow tree. And he is much like he was the ship that rolled through the water. He is now making her life bend to his force.

[Guest Singer]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

Head on the pillow, I could feel you sneaking in. So she's thinking of him at night, maybe that she's in her bed at night, you know, obsessing about him as we do about a new love. As if you were a mythical thing.

[Toni]

Right.

[Joe Rome]

So. And if you've been watching the music video we're getting, when she goes into the piano, she ends up in a kind of a mythical woodland place where there are other. There's a lot of these green lights that could be Will o' the wisps or the screen is green.

[Toni]

You just call them Will O Wisps.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah, Will O Wisps, most people call them. And. Well, of course, Will O Wisps. And so as if you were a mythical thing. That's. That's. And then like you were a trophy or a champion ring.

[Guest Singer]

Yeah.

[Toni]

And then she said she'd cheat to win it.

[Joe Rome]

Right. Again, that's another kind of worrisome thing. And this is. This is a theme that this. That she's going to come back to. And I want to say. Let me read something that she said in one of the interviews about this song. So this is the pandemic. Aaron Destner sends her the melody on the instruments. And she said the melody felt strangely witchy. It felt like somebody standing over a potion, making a love potion, dreaming up the person they. That they want and the person they desire and trying to figure out how to get that person on their life. And all the kind of misdirection, bait and switch and complexity that goes into seeing someone feeling a connection, wanting them and trying to make them a part of your life.

[Guest Singer]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

So. And then he's another place. She said Will was about intrigue, desire, and the complexity goes of wanting someone. I think it sounds like casting a spell to make someone fall in love with you.

[Guest Singer]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

So, yes, there's some trickery going on here. Some. Some manipulation. Witchcraft. And it was one of the. The fact of all of this mythical and witchiness, of course, made me realize that another possible reference of the title.

[Toni]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

Is Willow. From Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

[Guest Singer]

Maybe.

[Toni]

I've never seen it.

[Joe Rome]

Willow was the witch character.

[Toni]

Right.

[Joe Rome]

And she ultimately becomes very powerful and actually becomes dark Willow, as it turns out. Sarah Michelle Geller, big fan of Taylor's.

[Toni]

Right.

[Joe Rome]

And at the same time, apparently, Taylor said that the Great War was modeled on the relationship between Buffy Summers and the vampire Spike.

[Toni]

That's funny.

[Joe Rome]

I just saw. Right.

[Toni]

Spoilers. Spoilers.

[Joe Rome]

So I haven't seen the show, and 20 years looks almost like a coven of witches in the video in a bit. But. So, yeah, this prize I cheat to win. So she is now really getting into the desperate. This fits with the begging. She wants this guy and will do whatever it takes to get him.

[Toni]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

And then we go back to the chorus with some addition to it.

[Toni]

Yeah. Okay.

[Additional Commentator]

The more that you say the less I know Wherever you stray or follow I'm begging for you to take my hand Wreck my plans that's my man, you know that my train can take you home Anywhere else is hollow I'm begging for you to take my hand Wreck my plans that's my man.

[Joe Rome]

Nice.

[Toni]

I can sing it again if you want.

[Joe Rome]

Oh, I. I like that.

[Toni]

That was good.

[Joe Rome]

I thought so.

[Toni]

Oh, thank you. Yeah. It's like I can't tell sometimes when I hear myself, but okay. Period. Thank you.

[Joe Rome]

To judge. But I. I thought you got the. You got the hollow. The hollow is the hard word to do, the way she sings it.

[Guest Singer]

Yeah.

[Toni]

You just. You need, like, breath, support.

[Joe Rome]

But, yeah. So again, she's now added. She's still got the. The begging, still got the. Wreck my plan, you know, that my train could take you home. So that could mean a literal train. I was occurring to me as. I was listening to this just right before we went on. Because she's got so many puns in here, I thought, oh, well, maybe this is the wedding dress train.

[Guest Singer]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

And so my train getting married to you is what's going to take you home. So, you know, this is a kind of a fantasy, you know, if we were married, then, you know, and it's great. This. This. That's my man. She keeps saying, you know, Wreck my plans. That's my man, you know. Well, he isn't quite her man yet. This is Kind of her statement of possession.

[Guest Singer]

Right, right.

[Joe Rome]

She's declaring like, that's my man, but.

[Toni]

Right.

[Joe Rome]

It's a little from insecurity, not from confidence that he really is. And then she goes back to tweaking the previous verse.

[Toni]

So I can do that.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah.

[Additional Commentator]

Life was a willow and I bent right to.

[Toni]

Wait, hold on.

[Joe Rome]

Oh, no. This is the bridge. I'm sorry. He's calling this. Yeah, he calls this. Right.

[Toni]

This is like. Well, we'll see.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah.

[Guest Singer]

Life was a willow and it bent right to your wind. They count me out time and time again. Life was a willow and it bent right to your wind. But I come back stronger than a 90s trend.

[Toni]

I love that line. But I come back stronger than a 90s trend. Well, they say right to your wind. They count me out time and time again. What does that mean? I think that means that. That she. You know, people think of her as not really in competition or just. They think that she's.

[Additional Commentator]

I don't know.

[Toni]

Sometimes, like. Like, you know, in Hazel Sister, when it's like, oh, my God. Like. Like. Oh, wait, let me look this up. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Wait, wait.

[Additional Commentator]

No, no, don't say anything.

[Toni]

Let me find this so I can make this point. Okay, okay. Oh, my God. Okay, okay. Oh, yeah. When he sings, like, the way you

[Additional Commentator]

can't cut a rug Watching you is the only drug I need. I'm so gangsta, I'm so thug. You're the only one I'm dreaming of.

[Toni]

You see? Like, like. Like. He's just like. The way you can cut a rug Watching you is the only drug I need. And then he just says, so gangsta, I'm so thug. You're the only one I'm dreaming of. Like. Like. Like. Why is. Like. What? Like, she just included that. Like, she's like. They count me out time and time again. Just like. To reference the critics. That could be one interpretation.

[Joe Rome]

Well, yeah, I mean, I think that. That.

[Toni]

Sorry. I just think it's crazy how he just, like, in the middle of Hazel Sister, he's just like, I'm so gangster. I'm so thug. You're the only one I'm dreaming of.

[Joe Rome]

Right. No, she. She has gone. She has taken this deeply intimate, personal story and stuck in this line, which is something out of reputation and.

[Toni]

Or midnights.

[Joe Rome]

And then she goes. And I think partly she does this. And by the way, as you know, as I know, she writes songs. She has a notebook of lines that she comes up with. And she waiting for a song or a melody to come along while she

[Toni]

can use it like cards against humanity.

[Joe Rome]

Right. Yes. And which she talks about a lot. For blank space, she had, you know, she had the line, darling, I'm a nightmare just like a daydream in her notebook. And she was just. When she had gotten enough of those songs, she was like, oh, I could write this whole, you know, song. So, yes, I think she really wanted to put in the line, but I come back stronger than a 90s trend. And now, interestingly, since I was researching this, not that I am a big person on 90s trends, although. So what is a specific 90s trend that was coming back then?

[Toni]

Scrunchies and like, long T shirts.

[Joe Rome]

Cardigans.

[Toni]

Oh my God.

[Joe Rome]

Wow. Elle magazine pointed this out. Cardigans were a 90s trend because of the movie Clueless and. And because of the nanny. And of course, in part thanks to Taylor and the pandemic, cardigan came back in. In 2020. And so just a very meta line.

[Guest Singer]

It is very meta.

[Joe Rome]

And okay, now I can do this part. Yeah.

[Toni]

And I'll. I'll pause after this and then after that we can go through. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[Additional Commentator]

Okay.

[Toni]

Yeah. Okay, hold on. Let me grab that lyric.

[Guest Singer]

Wait for the signal and I'll meet you after dark show me the places where the others gave you scars. Now this is an open shut case. I guess I should have known from the look on your face. Every bit. And switch was a work of art.

[Toni]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

Nice. And okay, wait. Okay. Wait for the signal and I'll meet you after dark.

[Toni]

I can do a really good Joe impression. I can do a really good one. Can I try?

[Joe Rome]

Sure.

[Toni]

Okay. Wait for the signal and I'll meet you after dark. Now Taylor, she tries to be cryptic. We know she does. Yes. You know, as. As genius points out, perhaps this could mean Doo doo butt cheeks. Right. And. And. And tittykaka.

[Guest Singer]

Okay.

[Toni]

Okay.

[Joe Rome]

We don't have to come back to Lake Titicaca, but I'm not ongenius what

[Toni]

I think this means, though. Excuse me. Not to interrupt you, but women speak first. So is. Is I think that. Wait for the signal and I'll meet you after dark and show me the place. I mean, obviously this is. Is kind of getting into the weeds of their love and they're like, actually, like, together. Now she's. This entire verse is basically saying, oh, like, I thought this wasn't an open shut case. But like, this is like an open shut case. Like, you liked me. And like every Bait and switch. Like he was trying to act like he didn't like her to. Like, it's like a bait and switch. Like he took. Like. Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

She is only cryptic and Machiavellian because she cares.

[Toni]

She cares.

[Joe Rome]

We very much know that. We know that from Mastermind. Wait for the signal. I'll meet you after dark. So she does a lot of meeting after dark. She does it in Cruel Summer. She does it in the Signal, most famously from a love story.

[Toni]

Right.

[Joe Rome]

Throwing the pebbles at the window, the balcony scene. So she does a lot of sneaking around. Show me the places where the others gave you scars.

[Toni]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

Boom. Okay.

[Toni]

You drew stars around my scars and now I'm bleeding. Yeah. And every scar that I got from plucking my guitar string.

[Guest Singer]

Like.

[Toni]

Yes.

[Joe Rome]

But also, you drew stars around my scars. But now I'm bleeding because I knew you.

[Additional Commentator]

Because I knew you stepped in on the last train.

[Toni]

Yeah. Oh, my God. My train can take you home. That's crazy.

[Joe Rome]

She's picked up train and scar. This is all back a reference to cardigan, which is one of the reasons why I have trouble seeing this as such a positive relationship.

[Toni]

Oh, my God. And also leaving like a father. Running like water. But she's in water when she sings that. Like. Like the. The cardigan in this is in water. Yeah. Anyway.

[Joe Rome]

Yes. So this is why I do have trouble seeing this as. As a great. As a good love story. She's into this guy once again, who's not so into her. Which of course also goes back to. I knew you were trouble when you walked in. Right. I guess you didn't care, and I guess I liked that. Right.

[Guest Singer]

When I fell hard, you took a step back.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah. He has this thing of falling hard for guys.

[Additional Commentator]

She has this thing.

[Toni]

No, I'm just kidding. I'm so sorry.

[Joe Rome]

So now this isn't now. So now she's switching this from. And if it was an open shut case, I never would have known from that look on your face.

[Toni]

It's an open shut case.

[Joe Rome]

Now this is an open shut case. I guess I should have known from look on your face.

[Guest Singer]

So now every bait and switch was a work of art, Right?

[Joe Rome]

Now that is another worrisome line.

[Toni]

I made a bow, but yeah. Continue.

[Joe Rome]

The bait and switch is in the land. Is living in the same land as Gaslighting, Right? The bait. What does it. What is a bait and a switch? Bait and switch is when I advertise you one thing, but I sell you another thing, right? There's a bait, and I'm going To switch. Infamously, as my mother would relate these stories from the 50s, 60s and 70s, there would be an advertisement for this amazing dishwasher at an amazing price. Yeah, there's only five of those in the store. They're sold out immediately. By the time you get to the store for the deal, there's don't have any. So now you're going to. Now they try to sell you this cheaper. This, you know, not as good model, but it's a little cheaper. So yeah, I mean a bait and switch is not a work of art. It's a sneaky thing to do in a relationship. Right. Because in Mastermind, everything she does is for the purpose of getting this guy to fall in love with her. That's the point of that song. So this song is, you know, foreshadowing a mastermind. Again, I, if, if someone wants to take this as a positive, a happy relationship, you know, go right ahead. I think that she is ambivalent in this song. And that is part of the point of the ambiguity, the constant use of puns and double meanings. And I think that as a writing technique, it's a very powerful one to create ambiguity this way. And lines like the more that you say, the less I know, which is antithesis.

[Guest Singer]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

So you know, now we're at the final repetition.

[Toni]

I can just sing through the rest of it if you want.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah.

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[Joe Rome]

Yeah. You don't have to.

[Toni]

No. Yeah, Let me do it. No, I can do the whole thing.

[Joe Rome]

You go.

[Additional Commentator]

That you say the less I know Wherever you stray, I follow I'm begging for you to take my hand Wreck my plans that's my man. You know that my train can take you home Anywhere else is hollow I'm begging for you to take my hand write my plans that's my man. The more that you say the less I know Wherever you stray I'll follow Begging for you to take my hand

[Guest Singer]

Wreck my plans that's my man. You know that my train can take you home Anywhere else is hollow I'm begging for you to take my hand Wreck my plans that's my man.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah.

[Guest Singer]

Hey. That's my man. That's my man. Yeah, that's my man. Every bait and switch was a work of art that's my man. Hey, that's my man.

[Additional Commentator]

I'm begging for you to take my hand Wreck my plans. That's fine.

[Guest Singer]

Anyway, that's the song.

[Joe Rome]

Snap, snap.

[Toni]

Everybody can tell that I'm a mezzo soprano. I'm a soprano on my good days.

[Joe Rome]

You're in the show. I know you're.

[Toni]

I am in the musical.

[Guest Singer]

That is true.

[Toni]

I'm doing musical.

[Joe Rome]

You're in this original musical. And.

[Toni]

Yeah. Very crazy. Somebody from our school wrote it. Very talented. Insane to think about it.

[Joe Rome]

Looking forward to hearing that next month. You know, this final ending, the just repetition over and over again. I'm begging for you to take my hands Wreck my plans that's my man. What is your view of how she wants us to think about this relationship and what she's doing? Are they together? Has she gotten this man or why is she still begging? What is she trying to communicate here? My daughter.

[Toni]

Give me 30 seconds to think.

[Joe Rome]

Okay? Sure.

[Toni]

Usually I just listen to the song for the vibes. I don't really listen because it means anything. And I think that's the point of the song. I think it's more of an ode to poetry than it is anything, you know? Like, you know that my train can take you home Anywhere else is hollow I'm begging for you to take my hand Wreck my plans that's my man. Like, I think it's just, like. I don't know. She's just.

[Additional Commentator]

She's just.

[Toni]

She's just saying to say. I mean, like.

[Additional Commentator]

Well, hold on.

[Toni]

Hold on he's gonna disagree with me.

[Joe Rome]

No, no, I'm not.

[Toni]

I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. But, like, my actual answer is probably that, like, it's just a recap of the whole of the relationship. You know, he doesn't want to commit, they're dating. But it's kind of like. I think if you search for too much meaning in these types of songs, it's gonna take away from the artistry of the vagueness.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah, I don't. I don't think that. I know some people said, oh, well, this song is obviously about, you know, Alwyn, but I don't think this is. Most of these songs are meant to be her life, and nothing much happens in this song. This is one of those songs in terms of a plot. Right. If I were to say, well, what happened in this song? The answer is there's nothing that really happened in the song. This is one of those songs where she is trying to make you feel an emotion. And she's throwing a lot of metaphors and similes, you know, as if you were mythical thing, like you were a trophy or a champion ring. So, yeah, she is just experimenting. I mean, this is obviously a brilliant song, a very, very popular song, very successful song. People really got into this song. So she's catching a vibe in December of 2020. So people have been living with the pandemic almost a year. They're not really going out and dating as much, you know. And so, yeah, I think people are imagining stuff in their heads. And she is trying to capture this feeling that. That of what it's like to imagine this perfect person and that you're in love with him, but you don't really know where you are with him and. And wreck my plans. Ironically enough, of course, people don't have many plans in the pandemic, right? That's. That's the goal, right? Can I find someone who's going to wreck my plans of just sitting home all day long and watching, you know, music videos or. Or whatever. Ooh. What. What is that noise? Is that a. Is that an alarm? If you have to go. All righty. Well, farewell. Thank you. Same time next week.

[Toni]

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[Toni]

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