EXCLUSIVE! An Elizabeth Taylor expert helps us decode the meaning of Swift’s hit song.

Summary

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Decoding Taylor Swift: “Elizabeth Taylor”

Podcast: Decoding Taylor Swift
Hosts: Joe Romm & Antonia "Toni" Romm
Special Guest: Ben Mankiewicz (Turner Classic Movies, The Plot Thickens)
Episode Theme: Decoding the meaning and references in Taylor Swift’s hit song “Elizabeth Taylor” through the lens of Elizabeth Taylor’s life, legacy, and cultural narrative.

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Episode Overview

This engaging episode explores Taylor Swift’s song “Elizabeth Taylor” by investigating its lyrical content, storytelling, and references to the legendary actress Elizabeth Taylor. The hosts, Joe (communication expert and author) and Toni (his daughter, writer and Gen Z pop-culture aficionado), team up with Ben Mankiewicz, preeminent film historian and host of TCM’s The Plot Thickens, to break down the song’s allusions, thematic parallels, and its place in Swift’s catalogue. The episode also offers practical advice on storytelling and communication—hallmarks of both Taylors’ (Swift and Elizabeth) public personas.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why “Elizabeth Taylor”? Parallels Between Two Icons

• Elizabeth Taylor as Archetype: The hosts situate Elizabeth Taylor as the "quintessential showgirl"—a woman immortalized through film, public intrigue, and enduring fame.
  • “Elizabeth Taylor, kind of old timey, very, very famous for her violet eyes. She was an actress in the 50s, 60s, and… probably the most famous woman in film for a long time.” – Toni (04:13)
• Taylor Swift’s Fascination: Swift draws inspiration not only from Elizabeth Taylor’s Hollywood persona but her tumultuous love life, press scrutiny, and ability to reinvent herself.
  • Both Elizabeth and Swift were child stars who successfully transitioned to adult acclaim, and both became lightning rods for media speculation about their relationships.

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2. Decoding the Song’s Structure and Lyrics

a. Centrality of “Forever”

• The word “forever” appears 10 times in the song, signaling obsessions with fame, legacy, and the durability of love and memory.
  • “This song has the word ‘forever’ 10 times.” – Joe (10:01)
• Toni notes Swift’s evolving stance toward “forever,” moving from naive idealism (“forever or it’s gonna go down in flames”) to self-reflection and maturity.
  • "She’s not clinging to the idea that things can be forever. She’s asking, ‘Do you think it's forever?’ It shows growth." – Toni (07:54)

b. Alliteration and Sound Play

• Swift’s recurrent use of “f” (forever, fate, father, fame, etc.), “but,” and “and” adds musicality and depth to the lyrics.
  • “There’s a whole lot of Fs, like Portofino, father figure, fate of Ophelia…” – Joe (11:20)
  • “This song has eight ‘buts’ and twenty ‘ands.’” – Joe (13:00)

c. Metatextual References & Songwriting Devices

• Referencing her own previous works (e.g., “he can be my jailer, Burton to my Taylor” from “…Ready For It?”).
  • “In the song ‘Ready for It’, she had the lyric ‘he can be my jailer, Burton to my Taylor.’” – Joe (13:31)
• Lines like “I’m so very tame now, never be the same now” nod to Elizabeth Taylor’s role in “Taming of the Shrew” and the theme of transformation.
  • “That's a reference to Taming of the Shrew, which is Elizabeth Taylor’s movie with Richard Burton.” – Joe (13:58)

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3. Context: The Elizabeth Taylor & Richard Burton Saga

a. Ben Mankiewicz on Elizabeth’s Hollywood and Love Life [20:21–37:00]

• Elizabeth Taylor became synonymous with extravagant romance, scandal, and resilience—having been married eight times (twice to Burton).
• Mankiewicz contextualizes Taylor’s marriages, public perception (“diva,” “homewrecker”), career accolades, and the infamous “Cleopatra” affair.
  • “She was famous in large part because of the public nature of her life. So I think clearly Taylor Swift is drawn to that.” – Ben (23:01)
• The scandal and resilience cycle: media love/hate, public shaming and redemption, which parallels Taylor Swift’s alternating treatment by the press.

b. Cleopatra: A Symbol of the Showgirl, Reinvention, and Immortality

• Cleopatra as archetype: Swift gravitates to the story of Cleopatra, immortalized in Shakespeare’s plays, echoing her own quest for legacy and transformation.
  • “Cleopatra, which is the movie where Elizabeth Taylor met Richard Burton and they fell in love even though they were both married to others…” – Joe (05:34, 20:22)
• Visual Allusions: The “fate of Ophelia” image in Swift’s video visually references Taylor/Burton.

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4. Fame, Art, & Immortality

• The conversation repeatedly circles back to immortality—not just in love, but in art and reputation.
  • “There’s the other type of forever, which is your work, your art lives on forever.” – Joe (09:03)
  • "The ultimate immortality… is being remembered by other people." – Joe (47:48)
• “All my white diamonds and lovers are forever…”: The luxury, love, scandals, and mass-produced fame blend in both Taylors’ stories and serve as a motif for memory, branding (Elizabeth Taylor’s famed White Diamonds perfume), and legacy.

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5. Celebrity, Gender, & Public Scrutiny

• Both Taylors are subjected to gendered criticism—labelled as “divas” or “scandalous” for their choices in love as well as their unapologetic self-determination.
  • “I think probably Taylor Swift identifies with that. Right. That you can’t just get married because you’re friends with someone… there has to be heat.” – Ben (24:50)
• Ben points out the double standard: male partners like Eddie Fisher faced little scrutiny compared to Elizabeth Taylor—parallels in the way Swift’s relationships are dissected.

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6. Metafiction and Storytelling: Lessons for Listeners

• The hosts and Ben emphasize that the showgirl metaphor extends to both artists’ abilities to seize their narrative and reshape public perception through strategic storytelling.
• The unpredictability of fame—"you're only as hot as your last hit"—is seen as both creative fuel and existential fear.
• Advice to Creatives: Ben closes out the interview with advice for aspiring writers:
  • “If you want to write, just start writing… It might be the first thing you wrote, but it’s more likely to be the 17th thing you wrote.” – Ben (39:57)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Taylor Swift’s Lyrical Obsessions:
  • “Taylor Swift is very obsessed with the idea of forever and or never. Like ‘never ever getting back together.’” – Toni (07:20)
• On the Gendered Experience of Fame:
  • “Eddie Fisher didn’t take any grief for it. As always, the woman… was seen as the real villain.” – Ben (26:12)
• On Legacy:
  • “Do you think it's forever? In the papers, on the screens, on the screen, and in their minds… those are the three things—media, movies, and memories—where you can live forever.” – Joe (51:55)
• On Elizabeth Taylor's Enduring Public Appeal:
  • “I challenge literally any single person who ever worked with Elizabeth Taylor to find anyone who didn’t like her… everyone loved her.” – Ben (30:16)
• On Writing & Nepotism in Hollywood:
  • “It gets handed down. That’s not really surprising… But if you want to write, just start writing.” – Ben (38:29, 39:57)
• On Swift's Relationship with Travis Kelce:
  • “In Travis Kelce, Taylor Swift has found a man who is used to media scrutiny… Maybe not as much as Taylor got, but...” – Joe (53:49)

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Timestamps for Critical Segments

| Timestamp | Segment Topic | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:33–04:13 | Intro: Why Elizabeth Taylor? The modern fairy tale of two Taylors | | 07:02–10:01 | “Forever” as a motif in Swift’s songwriting | | 11:12–13:00 | Lyrical alliteration, “but,” “and,” and sound play | | 13:31–16:30 | Intertextuality: References to “Ready For It?” and “Taming of the Shrew”| | 20:21–37:00 | Exclusive Interview: Ben Mankiewicz on Elizabeth Taylor’s life, fame, love, and scandal | | 51:55–54:11 | All my white diamonds… – Immortality through art, memory & media | | 55:00–57:17 | On decoding Swift’s albums: layers of meaning, criticism, and accessibility | | 57:48–58:10 | Extended metaphors and the meaning of “Tale of Two Taylors” | | 39:57–42:20 | Ben Mankiewicz’s advice for young writers |

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Final Reflections & Takeaways

• “Elizabeth Taylor” by Taylor Swift operates on several layers—personal, intertextual, feminist, and meta-narrative—knitting together Swift’s ongoing reclamation of public narrative and her kinship with past female icons.
• The idea of “forever” is interrogated against the backdrops of fame, creative legacy, love, and gossip, inviting fans and creators alike to think about what it means to be “immortal” in the story-driven age.
• The episode bridges pop music analysis, old Hollywood history, gender politics, and creative process—offering not just a breakdown of a single track, but a window into the machinery of pop mythmaking.

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Closing Moment:
“This album, one of its major themes… is the life of a showgirl, which is the immortality, the being remembered by other people… She’s making an extended metaphor. This is where she’s comparing her life to Elizabeth Taylor’s life. Again, there are two Taylors.” – Joe (47:48, 57:48)

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Listeners are encouraged to reflect on the lessons from both Taylors on how vulnerability and agency can transform a career—and how the stories we tell about women shape their immortality in popular culture.

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Transcript

[Joe Rome]

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[Ben Mankiewicz]

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[Joe Rome]

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[Ben Mankiewicz]

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[Joe Rome]

It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn more at WhatsApp.com welcome to Decoding Taylor Swift. I'm Joe Rome.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Tony.

[Joe Rome]

We have an exclusive for you. We're going to decode Swift's hit song Elizabeth Taylor with the help of one of the world's experts on Elizabeth Taylor.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yes, we are. Ben Mankiewicz. He's so cool.

[Joe Rome]

He is a very cool guy. The primetime host for Turner Classic Movies. And he has a podcast called the Plot Thickens. And this season it's on the making of Cleopatra, which is.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Which is obviously a movie starring Elizabeth Taylor.

[Joe Rome]

It is. And Swift is kind of obsessed with both Elizabeth Taylor and Cleopatra.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

And Cleopatra. Jinx.

[Joe Rome]

And this is a tale of two tailors. That's what this episode is. And let me first say that in the music video, the fate of Ophelia is this image here. And someone posted that this image is very, very similar to the image of Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

I mean, I feel like the bangs and the makeup alone kind of gave it away. Like, when I watched it originally, that's the first thing I thought.

[Joe Rome]

And when you go to Spotify for the song Elizabeth Taylor, you will see this image again.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

He didn't even. He didn't even acknowledge that he's secretly not woke. He secretly thinks that women should be honestly relegated to the house.

[Joe Rome]

Yes. I. I just. Just like my daughter is.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Don't be fooled by his pink, pink, pink little headphones. Don't be fooled. Cancelled.

[Joe Rome]

It's always good when. It's always good when Believes in you so wholeheartedly.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Anyway, love you, dad. Yay.

[Joe Rome]

I love you.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

But I have had to train him. He used to say things like, women need to make sandwiches. Women should be a dishwasher.

[Joe Rome]

By the way, when I was growing up, I was the one who did all the dishes.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Wow.

[Joe Rome]

Oh, yes.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Okay. Snaps, snaps, snaps.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes.

[Joe Rome]

That's why I'm very excited, ladies, at loading dishes.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Get in line.

[Joe Rome]

Well, okay, can we get back to Elizabeth Taylor and Taylor Swift? And let me say that despite the critics who said, oh, this isn't a good album, this album with 12 songs, all 12 of these songs are the top 12 songs on the Billboard Hot 100 and this song is number three in America and globally. So this is a monster album. It had a billion streams the first week.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

One billion. Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

That's doubling. Doubling the previous record. So what? Give me your take on this song. I really like this.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

This is my favorite song on the album, or one of my favorites at least. I really like it. I think it has a lot of good illusions going through the gen. The genius kind of like breakdown of the lyrics. I mean, like she, she has a lot of allusions to her old songs in it. A lot of, you know, obviously parallels and Elizabeth. And honestly, there are a lot of parallels between her and Elizabeth Taylor. Both of them, you know, they, they frequent Portofino. Well, they don't frequent, but Portofino, I believe, was where Taylor has gone with a few of her exes.

[Joe Rome]

And presumably Richard Burton proposed to Elizabeth Taylor at Porto in Portofino.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yes. And Richard Burton is Elizabeth Taylor's notoriously steamy, spicy and a little bit tumultuous love partner that she had and twice husband. Twice husband. She's been married eight times. Elizabeth Taylor twice.

[Joe Rome]

Two of them.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yes. So if you're not. Okay, so if you're not aware who Elizabeth Taylor is, as I really kind of was. I mean, I knew obviously the name, but Elizabeth Taylor, kind of old timey, very, very famous for her, her violet eyes. She was an actress in the 50s, 60s and she was. Well, she was like probably the most famous woman in film for a long time. And she won two Oscars. Right, for best Actress.

[Joe Rome]

For Best Actress. Yes.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yeah, she was, she's like really. She was prolific. She, she was a great. Everybody she worked with loved working with her, but the public had many, many opinions on her because of her dating life.

[Joe Rome]

And she was also, she was also a child star.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

She was also a child star who successfully made the transition to being an adult star.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Similar to Taylor Swift. Similar to Taylor Swift. But the press was on her. They called her a diva. They called her homewrecker. They called her a lot of things. And I assume that is probably what draws a lot of Taylor. Taylor's interest because she was very talented. But obviously she was kind of scorned for a lot of her behavior, even though most of it today. I mean, sure, the press hounds Taylor, so that really hasn't changed. But you know, today that behavior wouldn't be seen as, you know, crazy crazy.

[Joe Rome]

And thematically, now on Spotify, you can get Taylor Swift explaining in an intro to each of the 12 songs, as she did in the movie that she considered Elizabeth Taylor, the quintessential showgirl, simply because of the life she lived. And in some sense, Cleopatra, which is the movie where Elizabeth Taylor met Richard Burton and they fell in love even though they were both married to other. We'll hear that story when Ben man talks about it in the second part. But let's. Let me actually play the chorus of the song.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

Real.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Period. Yeah. So there's a lot there. The very beginning thing, the. Do you think it's forever?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

I was going through genius, and I found a very interesting nod that they put kind of in their synopsis, that she has a lot of songs that talk about forever, right? She does forever or it's going to go down in flames, you know, and my waves meet your shores Ever and evermore. The pain wouldn't be forevermore. The idea of finality, of happily ever after, of a story. Right. There always has to be an ending to a story. Right. Stories can't go on forever. Real life, you know, doesn't work like that always. But Taylor Swift is very obsessed with the idea of forever and or never. Like never ever getting back together.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right.

[Joe Rome]

Which also has the line, I used to think we were forever, ever.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

Right. So then it turns out breaking up is forever.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

And this is kind of a transition. Right. Because she's asking a question. Do you think it's forever? She's. I think it's kind of showed how she's grown as kind of a person through her songwriting. She's not kind of clinging to the idea that things can be forever. She's. You know. I mean, obviously the point of blank space was it's either going to be forever, it's going to go down in flames. That was. Right. Ironic. She was being kind of sarcastic there. Like, there's. There's no room for nuance. And she was joking about how nobody ever considers the nuance, which is that. Do you think it's going to be forever? Is there going to be. How long is this going to last? You know, she's asking a question which shows that she's in a relationship perhaps where she feels a little bit more, you know, mature, perhaps. And the relationship could be. To her in the press, you know, she might not stay in the public eye forever.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Well, let me.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

It's hard.

[Joe Rome]

A couple of points there. This.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

A couple of points.

[Joe Rome]

Because forever. The question seems to be about a relationship, because that's how she talks about it. But remember, in the final song, Life of a Showgirl, she says, I'm immortal.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Exactly.

[Joe Rome]

Right. So there's the other type of forever, which is your work, your art lives on forever.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Which is why I brought it up, because I think that a very important relationship that Taylor Swift should. I mean, that is laced within her songs is the relationship not between, like, her and Travis, but the. What I think is the most important relationship in her life, which is the relationship between her. Her work in the public. There are a lot of similarities between her relationship to the press, the public in her work, and Elizabeth Taylor's. So that's.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah, right. And she also makes the point that you're only as hot as your last hit. So that's the fickleness of fame. Right. So there's the forever of fame, but there's also. You're constantly trying to stay on top.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes.

[Joe Rome]

So, yeah. No, I think this forever point is brilliant. My daughter. Outstanding.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Oh, my gosh.

[Joe Rome]

This song has the word forever 10 times. There you go. Oh, look at you.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Women can make good points. Oh, my God. Wait. This is so feminist.

[Joe Rome]

The people who. For whom this.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

I'm not just comic relief. Okay. I'm not just here to be crazy. Okay. I. I have things to say anyway.

[Joe Rome]

Yes. Well, look, I think the fact that she repeats the word forever 10 times is quite important.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes.

[Joe Rome]

This song is. She's examining the fame. The fame similarity that Elizabeth Taylor had. I want to make another whole point.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yeah, make another point.

[Joe Rome]

Because we get into the whole alliteration thing, right, with the F sound, the life of a showgirl and father figure and the fate of Ophelia. Now, the interesting thing is she talks about forever, which also has the. The soft F and the hard F, which is the V. Right. Forever. Like the of.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

In. Of.

[Joe Rome]

And you'll see in this song a whole lot of Fs, like Portofino. And you'll see a whole lot of these.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

You never leave me high and dry yeah.

[Joe Rome]

If you ever leave me hot Right. So you get the V and the F sound.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right?

[Joe Rome]

You get. She'll cry, her eyes violet.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

Right. So she is really, I think, gone all out.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Tell me for real, do you think it's forever?

[Joe Rome]

I think that if you go sounding.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Less and less crazy, I can't lie.

[Joe Rome]

I'm sometimes less and less crazy.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Part of what writing is is just, you know, what people sound like. You know, what sounds good. You don't always know why you're doing it, but once it's done, then you go back and you can analyze and see why it sounds as good as it does. That's what we're doing. I just want to make that clear because.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes.

[Joe Rome]

And our entire first season, sometimes it.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Sounds a little crazy. Like, he sounds crazy. I know I'm not crazy. Just trust me. If you don't trust him.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

You should.

[Joe Rome]

Always trust my daughter.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Oh, you should. No, I'm just kidding.

[Joe Rome]

Get in line, boys.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Oh, my God.

[Joe Rome]

But yes, in the entire OR Girls.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Hashtag Coming Out Day.

[Joe Rome]

Yes, my daughter.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

It was national Coming out day a few weeks ago. I just want to say for the girls and the boys, hit me up.

[Joe Rome]

In the entire first season of Decoding Taylor Swift, we go through a lot of these techniques like foreshadow and alliteration and metaphor and the hero's journey story. But I like to bring them back. We had another one we talked a lot about, which is the use of the word but, right?

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yes. But that's actually very important.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right.

[Joe Rome]

Well, guess what? This song has eight butts.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Oh, wow.

[Joe Rome]

And 20 ands. So.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

So that is a very good ratio. That's.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It is a.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

It is 47% or 40.

[Joe Rome]

40%. Eight divided by 20.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

You're. You're.

[Joe Rome]

You're getting closer. And. And I know it's overwhelming the. The. The math and calculus that you're taking back to Elizabeth Taylor. So. Yes. And by the way, she puts in other song lyrics in the song Ready for It, she had the lyric, he can be my jailer Burton to my tailor.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Facts, Right. Give me my jailer Burton to my tailor.

[Joe Rome]

Anyway, and then there's a line which. And this is something that Rob Sheffield at the Rolling Stone noticed. He said the next line. He said, I'm so very tame now. Never be the same now.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

And another very famous.

[Joe Rome]

And that's the Taming. Just a second. That's. He points out, that's a reference to Taming of the Shrew.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

That's what I was going to say. That's what I was going to say.

[Joe Rome]

I'm sorry.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Which is Elizabeth Taylor's movie Taming of.

[Joe Rome]

The Shrew with Richard Burton.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yes. And it's going to say it's a Shakespeare play. Yes, it is a Shakespeare play. Okay, you need to understand that sometimes, like, I know that I'm, like, funny. Like, I know that I'm, like, pretty, but I swear there's, like, a brain jiggling around up here. Okay? Like, yes, I'm a woman. Okay? Yes, I know how to make good sandwiches. But that also means that, like, sometimes, like, I can think. Like, I can, like, know things. I can preempt you. Like, I can do that because I can see where your mind is going, because half of your mind is technically my mind. That's how genetics works. The monkeys slice in half your brain. They put half in mine and then take half of moms. They put it in here. That's why you get dumber as you get older.

[Joe Rome]

Boys and ladies get in line. She's got it all. She is a triple threat.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

I'm a triple threat. Wait, what? Those are the three. I only have two brains.

[Joe Rome]

You have the brain.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Oh, the brain.

[Joe Rome]

You're beautiful and you can make sandwiches. You're multi hyphenate. You are a multi hyphen.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Thanks, Dad. I so appreciate that. And you, you can navigate Spotify. Taylor Swift, Spotify section. Like it's nobody's business. Nobody's business. He can sit at his computer for hours. He doesn't even need to get up. And when he does get up, his legs, they work fine.

[Joe Rome]

You want to talk? You know Portofino, we talked about the. I can't even pronounce the Plaza Atene. That is a hotel that Liz and Dick, as they were called, used to hang out. And they actually spent six months there once. So that's the life that you could lead back in those days. Staying at a hotel for six months.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

I wish.

[Joe Rome]

And I know, you know, I think that there's a lot going on in this song. And, you know, for instance, and you look at me like you're hypnotized, and.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

I think you know why.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right?

[Joe Rome]

And that's a reference also to. To Wood, where she says, you know, I'm dignitized. Yes. Well, he's omitized. Yes. Thank you, my daughter, for not bleeping out the. The. The Dick.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

I just, like, think we already said dick. We said Liz and Dick. I just, like, don't know how dick got shortened from Richard. I feel like I think about that a lot. I mean, I'm sure I could look it up. I feel like looking it up would ruin it, though.

[Joe Rome]

You know, I'm. I'm. I'm. I don't know what to call it.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

I wish that I met more dudes in college named Richard, because I would call them dick. I'd just be like, what's up, Dick? I mean, I do that to most men anyway, so.

[Joe Rome]

You call most men dicks? I've. I have noticed that over the years, yes.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

And I'm punching up. I'm punching up.

[Joe Rome]

There you go. Alrighty. Well, right now, I think I just want to introduce the.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

The.

[Joe Rome]

The interview that we did.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yes. On that note, as we discussed this dude, Ben Mankiewicz. Yeah, not a dick. A seriously great guy. He's super smart. He knows so much. He is very good at telling stories.

[Joe Rome]

He is a great storyteller. He comes, by the way, from a family of great storytellers. His grandfather, his grandfather was Herman Mankiewicz, who co authored Citizen Kane with Orson Welles and is unnamed on screenplays, dozens of them, including the wizard of Oz. It was his idea to make the opening in Kansas filmed in black and white, which we talked about being part of the hero's journey, starting in the normal world and coming to special world of the Technicolor Oz. And his great uncle, which is to say Herman Mankiewicz's brother, Joseph Mankiewicz was the man who directed Elizabeth Taylor in Cleopatra.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Look, we're so excited to have him on this.

[Joe Rome]

He. His podcast this year of the Plot Thickens is six episodes on the Making of Cleopatra, which was one of the great troubled movies of all time. But it's also the movie where Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton met and fell in love, even though they were married to two other people. So if you really want to understand old Hollywood and Elizabeth Taylor and, and, and Cleopatra and these things that mean a lot to Taylor Swift, you should listen to that full podcast. But the next best thing is to listen to our interview of him, of Ben, which we're going to insert right now.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes. Okay.

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[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

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[Ben Mankiewicz]

Hello.

[Joe Rome]

We'Re back on Decoding Taylor Swift. Our episode discussing the second track on the album. And we have a real a treat here. An an exclusive interview with one of the great experts, Ben Mankiewicz on Elizabeth Taylor and who is for. For TCM has this amazing podcast called the Plot Thickens. And this season it's about the movie Cleopatra. They really wanted Elizabeth Taylor for this role and she was like the biggest star in the world.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah. So Fox, which was. Well, first of all, the producer Walter Wanger wanted Elizabeth Taylor when he conceived of the movie, when he planned it as the only person, he and Spiroscuros, who was running Fox, and he agreed that the value of Elizabeth Taylor, they considered Joan Collins, Susan Hayward. But, you know, Elizabeth Taylor was the biggest star in the world and that's who they wanted and that's who people, they thought people would envision when they, when they thought of Cleopatra. So they, they talked her into it. And basically, so the story goes and it's so it's such a good story that I always think it can't possibly be true. It just kept getting told this way. And, and to be fair, Elizabeth Taylor did tell the story differently a few times. But she's in the bath and she doesn't want to do Cleopatra. She's with her new husband, Eddie Fisher. They were very happy and she, and she, to sort of get. End the call and to get him off the phone, she says to Eddie, you know, tell him I'll do it for a million dollars. Sometime shortly thereafter, whether it's 10 minutes or 30 minutes or an hour, Wanger calls back and he talked to Fox and they're like, okay, a million dollars. And they're like, she was, you know, she was kidding, but she was like, all right. And then they agreed to it. And then they made the hugely mistaken decision to the, to announce it to the press that they had signed Elizabeth Taylor to do Cleopatra. Of course, that is an announcement you want to make to the press, but you probably want to have the contract signed.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

So in doing it the way they did it, without a contract, they gave Taylor leverage, which she used to, in addition to the million dollars, get a couple of different, you know, houses, wherever they shot and to bring along the makeup and hair people that she wanted.

[Joe Rome]

You know, we're talking about Cleopatra in some sense the, the ultimate showgirl who really dressed opulently and who, who was, you know, a very, you know, theatrical person and made famous or made more famous by Shakespeare's play Antony and Cleopatra. And I'm just wondering if you can describe how Elizabeth Taylor was seen those days. Because Taylor Swift not only became famous, but she also became famous for the men she dated and that kind of crashed and burned and her quote, unquote scandalous behavior.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right. I mean, I don't think that anything Taylor Swift has done comes close to meeting the standard for what the perception was at least about how scandalous Elizabeth Taylor was. Taylor Swift, you know, and I'm coming at this as a guy with a 12 year old daughter who really, I won't say introduced me to Taylor Swift. I'm not so clueless that I wasn't aware of Taylor Swift and some of her music, but you know, over the past five years and gotten to know a lot more about her. And of course I'm a huge, you know, I'm an enormous sports fan and a regular. I mean, my Sundays are spent watching television. So I was, you know, like many others, I was like, hey, look at this, this is fun, this Travis Kelce relationship. So yeah, I mean, she' gone out with guys and they've broken up. That's sort of everyone's story until they get married. Right? Everyone who's certainly out seeking it until they settle down. They don't necessarily have to get married. So her story is really no different than any other woman or man in their 30s who's been dating since they were a late teenager. Right. She's had 15 years of relationships and breakups and breakups are hard. So, you know, on one hand I see Taylor Swift as being exactly like everyone else who's sort of searching to meet the perfect person and has struggled to do so, although it feels all these things for a time feel like they're going to be perfect. Right. You know, so Elizabeth Taylor was the most famous person, most famous woman in the world. And she was famous in large part because of the public nature of her life. So I think clearly Taylor Swift is drawn to that. And the Elizabeth Taylor had already been. She got married very young to Conrad Hilton of the Hilton hotel chain and he was clearly a ill suited husband to anyone and clearly abused Elizabeth Taylor.

[Joe Rome]

She was like 18 or something.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

She was 18. He was young too. I mean, he wasn't that young, but it wasn't, you know, he wasn't a 40 year old guy. He was a party boy and you know, and clearly sort of grew up with wealth, you know, and so she'd gone through as she did then, she married English actor named Michael Wilding and they had some kids. But there was sort of, it was, you know, without the passion that clearly she, and I think that she wanted and she strove for and missed when she didn't have it. And I think probably Taylor Swift identifies with that. Right. That it can't, you can't just get married because you're, you know, friends with someone, that this has, there has to be heat. And so many of us think that again, that doesn't make Taylor Swift strange or different. Right. That makes her, I think, healthy. But Elizabeth Taylor, so she'd gone through these marriages and then finally she had a good one to a producer, theatrical producer named Mike Todd. And Mike Todd, who she was happy with. It was a turbulent marriage, but they, they sort of fought each other and liked it and then made up passionately. And it is said now that he's the love of her life, at least prior to Richard Burton. But we don't know whether that's really true because he was killed in a plane crash when his own private plane crashed in New Mexico in 1958. His best friend was Eddie Fisher, the.

[Joe Rome]

Singer and the father of Carrie Fisherman.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And the father, Eddie Fisher was married and had two young kids. Carrie and Todd was married to Debbie Reynolds who was, you know, star singing in the Rain. And they begin an affair that then becomes public. People are whispering about it, people are telling Debbie Reynolds about it. She makes a phone call to the hotel where they're staying together and doesn't. He's not answering in his room. She calls Elizabeth Taylor's room and he's there. So that becomes a very public story. And she is seen as the other woman who tore apart this perfect young couple. Just preposterous. She was the other woman. But, you know, I sense that marriage was probably doomed to fail anyway. I'm not excusing it, I'm just saying again that, you know, Eddie Fisher didn't take any grief for it. As always, the woman in the relationship, especially that time in America, was seen as the, as the. And then the real villain defends the towel, right? That's right. And, and Elizabeth probably leaned into it a little bit. So she was in a stretch from 1957 to 1960 of making four straight movies that Got her a Best Actress Oscar nomination, but she didn't win until 1960 for a film called Butterfield 8. And that was only after she had had the first significant health scare where she'd had to have a tracheotomy. She was in the hospital and she. Quite. To be fair, if she hadn't had a successful tracheotomy, she would have died. She had a visible scar. Then all of a sudden, despite all this stuff that she'd stolen DEBBIE Reynolds husband, there was a sense of sympathy for Elizabeth Taylor, and she won the Oscar for a performance she didn't even like. So I think there's some. I imagine that all of that is sort of resonates with Taylor Swift. This idea of the media, the press, the populace turning on her, then embracing her. Turning on her, then embracing her. Right. That. That is probably something of a star of Taylor's magnitude, of Taylor Swift's magnitude that she probably identifies with.

[Joe Rome]

Well, and there's a line in the song, what? You're only as. As good as your latest hit.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yeah. You're only as hot as your last hit. Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And also that they liked her for her music, but that, again, when relationships fall apart because these people are famous, then there's this sense of she has an idea of a relationship or she's, you know, she drives these men away or she's too needy. I have no idea what people say, but I'm keenly aware that in this age, they probably say something mean. And even though you'd want. If I were Taylor Swift's friend, I would say to her, stop reading all this stuff, because I guarantee you, for every thousand terrible things that you read that are said about you, there's 5 million adoring things. But I know personally from that experience, and I certainly know friends, and particularly women, the bad stuff sticks. Right? There's something.

[Joe Rome]

And it should be. It should. It should be said that she does write songs about these guys.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah, no, no, I got it. She's.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But I mean, you should be able also to write. So I'm just saying she should. She, like everyone else, is overly concerned with the negative things people say, and I'm including myself in that. And not the fact that, you know, she toured for two years and sold out every show around the world to, you know, tens of thousands of adoring fans. Who cares what people are saying on Twitter? But. But I. But we. Something's broken in the human, in our DNA, that makes us focus on the negative instead of the adulation. So I think this is all, I'm not criticizing her. This is all why I actually like her is that I find her, Taylor Swift, incredibly human. Yeah. So. But you know, you see it in that line, you know, what do you get for the girl? This is line in there, right? What do you get for the girl who has everything? Which is what was constantly sort of sad about Elizabeth Taylor too. Which is why men, even Eddie Fisher, after she started having an affair with Richard Burton, like got her this, you know, incredibly expensive piece of jewelry. Because you. What do you get for how do you impress Elizabeth Taylor? Right.

[Joe Rome]

And that, by the way, was. I didn't realize this until read article in Rolling Stone by Rob Sheffield. The Girl who Had Everything was one of Liz's first early successful movies.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That's right, was an early successful movie. So it seems, it makes a lot of sense to me that, that first of all, I'm an Elizabeth Taylor fan and I don't write pop songs and I'm not a, you know, a woman or a guy in my 30s looking for love. Right. But I mean, I, you know, Elizabeth Taylor is a. This is also be said about Elizabeth Taylor and why there was suddenly the sympathy for her after she nearly died, despite this sort of public sense that she was the shrew who broke up a marriage. I chall challenged literally any single person who ever worked with Elizabeth Taylor to you to find anyone who didn't like her. Like the crew liked her, directors liked her, they got a cr. They were annoyed by her work habits sometimes that she was unavailable at times, and certainly my uncle Joe Mankiewicz did. But nobody didn't like her. Joe loved her, you know, up until the point where she drove him crazy even after. Then again afterwards, he went back to loving her. Everybody loved her. She was a, you know, her friendships with these, you know, with tortured souls like Montgomery Clifton, you know, tells you Elizabeth Taylor was like a really, really decent, kind person. And to her credit, she really didn't seem to care what anybody thought. And that is also admirable. And I see something else in why Taylor Swift would, would seek her out. Elizabeth Taylor didn't care about the bullshit. Right. She just didn't. And she was like, yeah, whatever they say about me, I don't care. I'm. I'm doing what I want. And then there's this general sense of both women, you know, Taylor through marriages and Swift through relationships, that they were both clearly loved. Being in love.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

It's more obvious with Taylor Swift to trace the line of kind of her, I don't know Love life and emotional state through her work because her work is writing about her love life and emotional state. And those are kind of her eras and how she thinks about, you know, where she's at in life. And so my question, can you through Elizabeth Taylor's work, are you able to see these like kind of various eras to her and kind of what are they? And, and can you kind of spot parts of her personal life in her work?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Well, of course it's much harder to in an actor than it is in a songwriter especially, I mean and then in a performer especially a songwriter because there's, I mean Taylor Swift is writing these songs and they're about her. Elizabeth Taylor didn't write any of her movies. That said she was a really talented actress. You don't accident. You don't win two best actress Oscars because you're pretty. Everyone who you know suggests that success in LA only comes to. It's usually a woman who comes to a. A woman is because she's gorgeous. I would just point out they should come out here and see how many people are that gorgeous. They don't all make it. So she won a second Oscar for who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf where she put on all this extra weight and, and played opposite Richard Burton. We haven't even mentioned who she fell in love with obviously while making Cleopatra, the subject of our podcast, the Scandal, the le Scandal as they said they called it. So I don't know that you can. Right from the start though, Hollywood recognized the value of taking advantage of Elizabeth Taylor's personal life and promoting it in the movies, right? So her first big. Well, she was a very successful child actress, right. She was in one of the Lassie movies, Lassie Come Home. She was in National Velvet. She was a child star. She's one of the few child stars to then transition to adult stardom. The percentage of stars who do that is infinitesimally small.

[Joe Rome]

Like Taylor and I think that's another.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Thing they see and that's right, that's right. So she. But her first big hit as an adult, if you can call her adult because I think she was 17 when she made it was father of the bride, Spencer Tracy and Joan Bennett. Joan Bennett played her mother. Spencer Tracy plays her father and it's about a dad who has to give away his 18 year old daughter. She gets married and Elizabeth Taylor played that and she and MGM as a. To sort of help promote it, paid for her wedding dress, I think paid for the whole wedding of her wedding to Conrad Hilton. That first husband because they wanted, like here's father of the bride. And look, she's getting married. You know, did they move that wedding along? Maybe if they'd taken their time, they wouldn't have gotten married. They would have realized how ill suited they were for each other. But that was an early example of it. And then the movie she made after she fell in love with Richard Burton and let no one mistake. What happened is it wasn't, this wasn't an idle affair. They were mad about each other and.

[Joe Rome]

Both married to other people at the time.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

You know, Richard Burton had a real marriage based on something to Sybil Burton. He had obviously, I say obviously because he's a very sexy, very artistic, very talented actor who traveled around doing plays and making movies. So it was not the first time he'd had an affair. And he seemed to have an understanding with Sybil that she was like, look, you can have your affairs when you're making these things. Don't embarrass me. The Elizabeth Taylor situation embarrassed her because everybody found out about it and obviously he chose Elizabeth And. But Elizabeth's marriage to Eddie was based on, was obviously another mistake, almost a well intentioned mistake. Right. Thought she was in love and. But this was based on, I think, this shared grief and there was not a good marriage. And so they, anyway, they, they got together and then when she made movies like who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? That was in a span where she was cast often with Richard Burton and they, and that certainly took advantage of what was happening in her life, that, that no matter what roles they play as a movie called the Sandpiper, where they have a clandestine affair or certainly are drawn to each other and that, you know, that was obviously, you know, they know that as people are watching these two characters and wondering, will they or won't, won't they? Everyone seeing those movies knows five years ago they were in that same situation. Will they or won't they? And they, they will vade, you know, and yeah, they definitely will be. Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

And I saw the New Yorker wrote a review of Cleopatra or a re review in 2013.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah, great. A great, a great piece too.

[Joe Rome]

And said that you could see the passion between Anthony and Cleopatra, Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton in the movie that came through that you could tell that they were, that it was genuine.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

So. Yeah. Let me just say one quick thing about that, if you don't mind.

[Joe Rome]

Please, please.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I'm not, I don't, I don't quibble with that. And I think, I'm sure that you could. But, you know, you could also see it between Humphrey Bogart and Ingrid Bergman and Casablanca, and they had no. They weren't having an affair. And they didn't even really get along. They didn't hate each other. They were just sort of. They never really connected. So good actors. That's what good actors do. And there's been a zillion movies where you think those people must be having an affair, but they hated each other. But they're good at what, their job. They're good at their jobs. And. And Richard Burton, Elizabeth Taylor were great at their jobs. And of all, steal a little credit for my Uncle Joe. He was as talented a filmmaker as there was in his day, and he elicited great performances, even in a movie that was off the rails.

[Joe Rome]

And one thing just to say to the listeners, you know, come from a very distinguished family of screenwriters. Your grandfather famously co authored Citizen Cain with author Orson Welles, and his brother Joseph, who directed this movie, is the only writer, director in history to win an Academy Award for writing and directing a movie two years in a row. Four Academy Awards for. For those two movies. Do you have any? I mean, so this amazing family of yours has produced all these amazing writers. I'm wondering, since we have writers. I'm a writer and my daughter's a writer. And aspiring to be even more of a writer. You know, what advice? How did this happen, that this font of, you know, writing creativity. What would your advice be to young writer?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Well, I mean, I. I see so many similarities in so many of my relatives, so sometimes, you know, it's in the blood. I mean, nobody thinks it's weird that, that, you know, LeBron James's kid can play in the NBA. I mean, he's not going to be as good as his father, but the notion that he doesn't belong in the league is preposterous. I mean, this guy scored 20 points a game in the developmental league, and yeah, he's great. So. And that's not weird. It's LeBron James was kid. You know, it's half of his DNA is LeBron James, you know, but somehow, you know, in Hollywood, it's considered whatever they're. You know, we developed this term nepo baby in 10 years ago or whatever. It's great to talk to you if you ever have a chance to talk to Jamie Lee Curtis, you know, she's like, I'm the ultimate. Nepo baby is the daughter of Tony Curtis and Janet Lee. And she's like, yeah, whatever. What did you people want me to do for a living.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yeah, right.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

You know, with these two parents. So some of it is hereditary. Like, we're. Many of us in the family are very funny. My brother's a correspondent for Dateline NBC. You know, there's nobody quicker than my brother. And like I said, John is funny. Herman and Joe were legendarily funny. My father was really funny, clever, really smart. So Tom Ankowitz, really clever. That's why he was this script doctor. So that's why, you know, it gets handed down. And that's not. That's not really surprising. That's a big part of it. But I do know that if you want to write, just start writing and, you know, write a screenplay, write a novel. Whether it's bad or not, write it for yourself. And then at some point, someone will recognize it's good. Maybe you. Maybe you'll send it to someone, It'll be good enough. And it might be the first thing you wrote, but it's more likely to be the 17th thing you wrote. You know, Sylvester Stallone, he wrote Rocky. It was his idea. He bet on himself for Rocky. You know, he got offered. He had no money, none. He was living in like a one bedroom apartment or a studio apartment with his wife and with his dog and with eventually a kid. They had absolutely no money and they wanted to cast some big star. And he said no. And so he said, I only this. I wrote this for me. I'm going to star in this. So he. Instead of getting $350,000 for it, he got $10,000 for it, you know, and then made a gazillion dollars. So it. So. But he wrote. That's about the. He'd written about 17 screenplays at that point. Like, nobody thinks it's alone like that. So he just kept at it and kept at it and kept at it. And something worked. And he's like, I don't even know what a. How to structure a sentence. Like, he's. Be the first to tell you. Like, I don't know, subject. He goes, verb. That's action words, right? I like those action words. He goes, I don't know. I just know how people talk. Right? So that was. But you can still do it. So you don't have to, you know, you don't have to know exactly where to put the comma. Just tell your story. Write it down.

[Joe Rome]

You have another question, Antonio?

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

I guess my final question is, what drew you to be, you know, so interested in more of the history of all this work and, you know, journalism?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Well, I was A journalist first? Yeah. I went to. I mean, I don't know, I sort of didn't know what else to do. I didn't want to go to law school. I was. I knew I wasn't as smart as the other people in the family. I mean, that was my instinct, that I wasn't as smart as the rest of the family. I might have been maybe clever enough or, you know, I could. I was occasionally funny, but I didn't, I wasn't as well read. And my brother was a journalist. And I thought I was very shy, though, so I had to sort of overcome that to be on tv. And I did, but it was. That part wasn't that easy. And then I was just okay at it, you know, And I sort of. You find you're okay at. You could tell that you're better at it than some people and certainly not as good as others. But the ones where I was not as good at, I was like, they're really good. I can tell they're great. And I want to get to that. So I became a journalist and then I grew very disenchanted with TV news because it's pretty bad and I can talk about the only things I care about, which are like politics and sports.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

And so I tried to branch out. I tried to be a talk show. I wanted to host a late night talk show more than anything, even though I knew that was pretty pie in the sky. But I love game shows. I thought I could do that. And then I got offered this job at tcm and I was the best job I'd auditioned for. I couldn't believe I got it. I hadn't worked in about a year and a half and I, I thought it was just a job. And that was 22 years ago and coming up on 23. And I, you know, I couldn't believe it. And now it defines my career. Everything good that's happened to me has been because of tcm. I was super fortunate to get it. I knew a lot about movies, but I very quickly learned. In the first year, I was like, oh, my goodness, I don't know enough. So you watch and you learn when you pay attention. I paid attention to people who did. Listening. You can't be a good writer without knowing how to listen. And you got to read. Read good stuff and then find your own way. But write. Don't worry if it's bad. Just keep going well.

[Joe Rome]

And your podcast is great, you know, and, and I think I certainly urge listeners, if they're interested in Elizabeth Taylor And. And why the other Taylor might have seen some commonality if they're interested and.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Hollywood in general and in the industry.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It's a great song. It's a really good album. I actually heard one song on the album that I Spotify played for me without me knowing it. I can't even figure out which song it was, but I like it. I keep listening to others now. I'm worried it wasn't off that album. But I also. What do I like? I like. What is it? Opalite. Is that how to pronounce it?

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Y.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

That's.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I love that song. That's already great.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

It's a good song.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

But I mean, she takes these things like. Like Taylor Swift did her Elizabeth Taylor history. I mean, she talks about the Portofino. Like, that's where Elizabeth. I think we think. And Richard Burton got engaged there for the first time. Really like Taylor Swift. I liked her before Travis. I also like Travis. I like Jason Kelsey.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

I seems like a good dude.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

I want them to. And I think it's interesting that she clearly. She's talking about Travis because Richard Burton could handle the spotlight. He even craved it.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Part of the attraction he want. Although he admitted quickly there. And they got together and he had been drawn to her fame because he wanted to be more famous. He was this Welsh, mostly theater actor. Right. And. And then he was like, a little bit into it. He was like. I'm. I'm not sure I understood how much she has to deal with. You know, I'm. But. But Travis appears up to it, at least for now. And it's super hard to make any marriage work and very hard if you're both in the public eye. So, you know, my. But my fingers are crossed for them. I. I like. I really like Taylor Swift.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yeah.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Was super fun. And thanks for helping us out and promoting our podcast. We're really proud of it. This season of the Plots Against Cleopatras, We're. We is really. I think it's our best season. And our podcast director, Angela Caron and Jacob Friedman, these people who put it together, they're amazing. They just. They're really great, great storytellers. And it's a. It was a privilege of mine to be able to work with them.

[Joe Rome]

Well, I think people will be thinking and hearing the name Elizabeth Taylor. I mean, they always have. But with Taylor, you know, making it a monster hit song globally.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Me too.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

When Elizabeth Taylor is in the news, it's good for tcm. It's good for classic movies. It's good for the world.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

That's great. Well, thank you. Thank you very much.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Thank you so much. Yes.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

It was great.

[Joe Rome]

This episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels. Jack Daniels and music are made for each other. They share a rhythm in the craft of making something timeless while being a part of legendary nights. From backyard jams to sold out arenas, there's a song in every toast. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org, jack Daniels, and old number seven are registered trademarks. Tennessee whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Good to meet you.

[Joe Rome]

So welcome back.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Oh, my gosh, guys. Oh, my gosh. It's been so long. Crazy story. We actually recorded the interview before everything. And that whole intro wasn't us just doing it. And then we did the interview and now we're doing this. It's like magical, like.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

It is.

[Joe Rome]

It is. It's amazing. My daughter. The technology. We have to prerecord things.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

And sticks.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

And then sticks.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah, it's amazing.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Isn't that crazy?

[Joe Rome]

Shout out to Riverside, by the way, which is a big platform and it's really, really great for this sort of thing. First of all, Ben is a great storyteller.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

He is. He really is. And I learned so much.

[Joe Rome]

The stories he's telling is amazing. I also like the part at the end where he was talking about his advice to writers.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Because that was very helpful.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah. I think that if you want to be a writer, you should write.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yeah, you should write, even if it's not. And also learn how to make sandwiches because you will need to do that.

[Joe Rome]

Well, I think you could use doordash these days.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

No, no, I. I just mean that while you're, like, writing and failing, you'll probably need another job. So sandwich making is probably what it's going to end up for a long time.

[Joe Rome]

I think it is hard to make a job.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Like, I got a job as a campus barista. Because I'm thinking ahead. I'm thinking ahead.

[Joe Rome]

Let's wrap up this. You know what our thoughts are on this episode. Presumably, part of the point of this is she is talking about her relationship with Travis. She's asking the question, as you say, you know, is this forever? And she, as you say, she's. She's, I think, understands that obviously, you know, nothing. Human beings are not forever.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

But she's wiped up now. Like, she wiped him up. I mean, they're engaged to be wed. And.

[Joe Rome]

Well, and there's a line in this song. All my white diamonds and lovers are forever. Right. So the White diamond, by the way, is what. That's Elizabeth Taylor's perfume.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yeah. And she. Yeah, I mean, obviously.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

Right. Memories and Taylor. That's the other thing about Taylor.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

She is.

[Joe Rome]

Memory is very important to her.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

All too well. She remembers it.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right.

[Joe Rome]

She remembers it all too well. But. And she writes a lot about memory. And.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

So I think many artists do. Many artists do. Conan Gray has a famous song, wish that you would stay in my memory. There's so many songs that talk about memory because they're very important. A lot of human emotion is lived through memory, so.

[Joe Rome]

Well, I think one of this gets to this whole question of the life of a showgirl, which is the immortality, the being remembered by other people.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Right.

[Joe Rome]

That's this.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

That's the ultimate immortality.

[Joe Rome]

Right. And. And that goes back to.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yeah, I was actually. Sorry. I was watching Death becomes her this weekend. So, like. Yeah, obviously, being immortal. Like.

[Joe Rome]

You watched the movie version of that.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yeah, the movie version.

[Joe Rome]

Well, and of course, that movie is also kind of a satire on how women in Hollywood have to stay young. Right.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

And. And so that's like camp.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

The substance. I mean, the substance is kind of camp. But.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah. And.

[Joe Rome]

And I think that, you know, what you see in Taylor in this album, this album, to get to step back again to this. This song is an integral part of the album. It's both a great.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Integral. Please don't say integral. Please do not say integral. Right now I have my master monitor I triggered you on that was actually so triggering. Holy.

[Joe Rome]

But, yeah, she. This. This album, one of its major themes.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Come.

[Joe Rome]

Come back, Antonia, because now I'm actually.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Thinking about all my homework that I have. Okay, okay, sorry. I'm back. I'm back. Elizabeth. Taylor. Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift.

[Joe Rome]

Okay, we're back to A Tale of Two Taylors. And, yeah, look, this question of the showgirl, right. The point of the fate of Ophelia, that whole music video was the progression of. Of Showgirls, but also the fact that. That Taylor Swift portrays some pictures of Ophelia, but Ophelia, who of course, is a creation of Shakespeare, lived forever because, you know, he was. She was invented by Shakespeare and then immortalized in art. Right, right. The art was another way that you could live on forever. And Cleopatra was obviously an actual real person. And she did, in fact, have both Julius Caesar and Mark Antony as lovers.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Crazy. She's such a baddie.

[Joe Rome]

And she was as. As, you know, we talked about a bit in that middle segment, kind of the original Showgirl, because she dressed up in the gold. And, and she was very theatrical. And that's why Shakespeare wrote a play, Antony and Cleopatra, which also helped immortalize Cleopatra to a large number.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

And Mark Antony, because honestly, Julius Caesar was always going to be relevant. So is Cleopatra, but Mark Antony, Anthony, you know.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

And of course, Mark Anthony was also immortalized in Shakespeare's play Julius Caesar because he gives the famous friends, Romans, countryman speech.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Right.

[Joe Rome]

And. And that speech is also immortalized because of.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

He has it on his wall. Well, don't you have the friends, Romans, countryman?

[Joe Rome]

No, no, no.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Oh, you had. Lend me your ears.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah, no, no, no, I have on the wall is the Band of Brothers speech.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Oh, that.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Same freaking thing.

[Joe Rome]

Sorry to nerd out here. And we should cut that out too.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Because, like, I can't be seen lacking on my, on my Shakespeare. That's, like really embarrassing.

[Joe Rome]

That's really embarrassing. It's okay to be for.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

No, it's not, because I'm representing all of women. Like, if I don't know something that means no woman knows it.

[Joe Rome]

Well, I think that you're taking on this burden that I really am.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

This, this, this Tim Burton, this Richard burden.

[Joe Rome]

Richard Burton.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

There you go.

[Joe Rome]

This Richard Burden. Very nice. But look, I think. And look, Taylor Swift herself often seems to think she's taking on the burden of all women. Right. And she's written songs to that effect. She wrote the Man. Right. And, and, and many other songs. Let's get to the, to the end of this song where she's repeating the verse again. All My White diamonds and Lovers are Forever. Elizabeth Taylor. Do you think it's forever in the papers, on the screens, on the screen, and in their minds, okay, so those are the three things you, you can live forever because the media, you know, become a media figure. You get written about Elizabeth Taylor's movies, live forever. Much as Taylor Swift's songs have the potential to live forever. And then in their minds, right. And that is this idea of being in their memories forever. And then she just repeats, all my white diamonds and lovers are forever. Don't you ever end up anything but mine? Yeah, so that's the final line. And that is. It's kind of romantic. There's a little kind of warning.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yeah, it is.

[Joe Rome]

You know, ever end up anything but mine?

[Ben Mankiewicz]

So.

[Joe Rome]

But look, you know, one of the things that, that, that, that Ben Mankiewicz said was that maybe Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton got along so well because they could both deal with fame.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

And, you know, some of, like Joe Alwyn didn't like the whole Fame angle. And so that was never gonna work because Taylor's plans were to get more and more famous.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Is Joe Alwyn like, is. He's like, famous in his own right, though.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

Well, yes, he's playing Laertes. He played Laertes in the Hamlet movie. And he's also in the Hamnet movie.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Oh, wow.

[Joe Rome]

So the movie.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Let me Google what he looks like. Okay, Joe. Ow. No, you keep talking.

[Joe Rome]

Okay. And so this bitch. So the point is that, that.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Oh, he's in the brutalist.

[Joe Rome]

In. In Travis Kelsey, Taylor Swift has found a man who is used to media scrutiny. Maybe not as much as Taylor got, but. But when you're, you know, a major, you know, star football player, every single thing you do is going to be scrutinized and criticized and second guessed.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

And I think anyone who saw the New Heights podcast understands they seem to have a real. A really good relationship. They like each other and make jokes at each. At their own expenses. You know, you like the word esoteric, right? So that's it. So. So sexy, you know, and all that. So. So a lot of this album is about showgirls and this question of fame and forever and. And how you deal with it. But then another part of the album is just, you know, kind of a love letter to Travis and. And clearly you don't have to know all of Taylor's stories and history to love this album. This album is a very popular album. She writes to the general public. I think that, that, that she. I mean, she's writing to mult and I think.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Okay, so the thing. A lot of criticism around this album has been that, you know, you shouldn't have to. You shouldn't have to go to the movie and do all these things to understand it. But I think in a certain sense, honestly, that's always how Taylor Swift has operated. Right. Like, there's the. There's the surface level lyrics that anyone can get. But you've always had to do digging to understand things, right. To understand why she. You could always go to genius. You always had to really, like, look between the lines. And I do think it's is a little bit excessive to do a movie and then, you know, play it and. Well, I just think it should be released to home and be like, free or something. I don't know.

[Joe Rome]

Well, I'm sure it will be.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Or like on YouTube. Yeah. But I do also think that a lot of her criticism is just kind of discounting the fact that, like, literally, that's kind of always how Taylor Swift has Worked. And it's. It's not like you're missing anything by watching movie because I'm sure people. You can find exactly what's, you know, in the movie online. And sure, it. I agree that it kind of stinks, but if you can't go. But at the same time, like, you know, Taylor Swift has always been somebody who was a little bit esoteric. You know, you have to be able to go, you know, really go on deep dives to find out exactly what every line means. So.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah, well, in the movie, she had introductions to each of the 12 songs, and she now has posted those on Spotify. So if you want. And she has.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

You can.

[Joe Rome]

The Jimmy Fallon. She has a long interview with Jimmy Fallon where she talks about multiple songs. I think it's actually interesting that in my mind, compared to previous albums, she has really gone out of her way to talk about what she's trying to do in this album. And, And I think, again, this is all marketing. You know, she. She. You know, one can criticize someone for marketing too much, but this record is record smashing because there's only been three people who've ever had the top 10, you know, songs on the billboard and Hot 100 at the same time. And those are all Taylor Swift. And Midnight was 10 of the 13 songs, and then she had 14 with Tortured Poets Department, but that was out of 31. This is the first song album. Every single one of the songs, 12 for 12. So that's impressive.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

I mean, yeah, she's reached not New Heights, not the New Wear Heights, but the newest heights.

[Joe Rome]

Newest Heights.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

That's what I'd be saying.

[Joe Rome]

Which is our fallback title for this.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

It's true. This is Newest Heights. Patent pending. Patent pending.

[Joe Rome]

So, look, I. I think that, you know, this is a good song, and.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

It'S a good song, and it's a good work of. It's a good piece of literature, or I. I suppose it's a good work of art in a literary sense.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah. She's making an extended metaphor. This is really an extended metaphor. This is where, you know, she's comparing her life to Elizabeth Taylor's life. Again, there are two Taylors, right? That would be another reason. Obviously, from early on, she probably connected with someone who shares her name. And we're gonna have more interviews, by the way.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Just want to tell you guys, look out for that. And by the way, thank you for streaming us and thank you for, like, listening to us. Seriously. We might have said this in the interview, but, like, seriously, like, thank you to all of our listeners, we are very, very, very grateful.

[Joe Rome]

Absolutely. In fact, we need to remember to do that sooner. But, yes, please, if you. If you put comments. Tell your friends. Tell your friends and go to Spotify and you can put in comments. And if you have any questions, if.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

You have something mean to say, just put, you know, like, at the end, like, but. But all. But, you know, like, you're still super cool, Antonia. Like, you're super awesome. It doesn't matter what you say about him, but just, like, just make sure that, like, you say that well.

[Joe Rome]

And by the way, if you have any questions you'd like us to answer, we could answer them on the air.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yes. Yeah, write questions in the comments. We will read them, and we will answer them.

[Joe Rome]

We'll definitely read them, and we'll answer them. And if they're really good, we might even answer them on the air. And next time, we're gonna remember to do this earlier in the episode.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Yes, we will. And so thank you. Thank you for listening. And. Yeah. Is that. That's the episode.

[Ben Mankiewicz]

Yes.

[Joe Rome]

This is the episode. This is a wrap.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

This is the episode. That's a wrap, folks.

[Joe Rome]

Ciao.

[Antonia (Joe's daughter)]

Ciao.

[Narrator for Woodbine podcast promo]

There are vampires out there. They walk among you, shoulder to shoulder in the dark. Heading to work, heading home, going to the bar. It's a life just like anyone else's, and I have grown used to it. To the darkness, to the moon, to the taste of blood on my tongue. But vampires are dying out. We are a fading kind, and I am the first one created in so long. And that is a dangerous thing to be. Those who came before me, elders of all stripes, they do not want to see our kind gone. And they will do anything to keep their power. And for myself and for Grace, who created me, that is a sword that hangs above our heads. And the worst person of all carries our secret. And he will use it however he sees fit. Who do you look to when things are at their darkest? From the creators of Park d' Il Haunt comes Woodbine, a podcast about monsters, dreams and changes, those you want and those you never saw. Coming Season 2 arrives September 24th. Distributed by Realm.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

October is Halloween month, which, yes, is a thing. And on the Vulgar History podcast, it's also Mary Shelley season. Mary Shelley wrote Frankenstein, the book when she was a teen mom on the run with her boyfriend, her sister, and her sister's boyfriend. She got the idea to write Frankenstein when her sister's boyfriend, Lord Byron, dared them all to write a ghost story one night. And now it's one of the most famous books of all time. It turns out that this story of grief and parenthood has deep personal connections for Mary Shelley. She learned how to write as a child by tracing the letters on her dead mother's grave. And her Gothic life only got more scary from there. People around her seemed to keep dying, leaving Mary Shelley ultimately the last girl, the only. Only survivor of that famous overnight party where she had written Frankenstein. We're taking a deep month into Mary Shelley's life and world on Vulgar History this month to figure out was Mary Shelley the ultimate goth icon? Listen to Vulgar History wherever you get podcasts.