How Decoding The Fate of Ophelia’s REAL Meaning Unlocks the Whole Album’s Meaning

Summary

---

Decoding Taylor Swift – "How Decoding The Fate of Ophelia’s REAL Meaning Unlocks the Whole Album’s Meaning"

Podcast: Decoding Taylor Swift
Hosts: Joe Romm and Toni (Antonia) Romm
Episode Date: October 14, 2025

---

Overview

In this episode, Joe and Toni Romm dive deep into Taylor Swift’s song “The Fate of Ophelia,” exploring its literary and personal inspirations—including Hamlet, the recurring motif of the patriarchy, and Swift’s real-life relationships—and explain how decoding this single track reveals the thematic architecture of the entire album, culminating in a connection to its final song, “The Life of a Showgirl.” The hosts weave detailed Shakespearean analysis with Swiftian storytelling, interrogate issues of agency and gender, and connect Taylor’s lyrical choices to broader commentary on creativity, performance, and the persistent presence of patriarchal control.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Taylor Swift and Shakespeare: The Ophelia Connection

• The hosts open by highlighting Taylor's ongoing engagement with Shakespearean themes, especially tragedy and women's lack of agency (00:56).
• Joe contextualizes the analysis with his own “Hamlet nerd” bona fides, including a framed copy of the full play script (01:21).
• Discussion of Taylor’s ex, Joe Alwyn, being cast as Laertes in a modern Hamlet production, positing that Taylor may have been further inspired by Hamlet scenes through this personal connection (02:01, 02:50).

“Did Taylor hear them or saw copies of Hamlet lying around or maybe even rehearsed with him some of Ophelia’s lines? It would be very interesting if we could ask Taylor that question.” — Joe (03:01)

2. Direct Literary Parallels

• "Locked inside my memory, and you alone possess the key" — the Swift lyric paraphrases Ophelia’s actual words in Hamlet: “’Tis in my memory locked, and you yourself shall keep the key of it” (03:49–04:08).
• Taylor is thus not only referencing Ophelia but directly quoting and repurposing Shakespeare, underscoring her nuanced awareness of the source material.

3. Agency & The Patriarchy in Shakespeare and Swift

• Toni discusses Ophelia’s lack of agency and how Taylor’s choice to “save” the Ophelia-like figure via a man is a deliberate subversion: “The whole arc of her character is that she lacks agency. That’s kind of the whole point of her story.” (05:40).
• This is mirrored in Swift’s tendency to rewrite tragic endings for her heroines, as with “Love Story,” which recasts Romeo and Juliet with a happy ending (14:44).
• Discussion of fire vs. water imagery: Swift’s repeated references to fire in the lyrics contrast with Ophelia’s watery fate, highlighting the song’s reclamation of agency and passion from depressive inertia (06:52, 07:24).

“Describing her in the song as being saved by a man is… an interesting choice… The whole point of the fate of Ophelia is that men drove her to… kill herself, basically. However, I think it’s very interesting that she subverted the story itself of her committing suicide.”
— Toni (06:05)

4. Use of Visuals: The Music Video

• The hosts analyze the irreverent, history-spanning music video, which casts Taylor as a variety of showgirls from different eras (08:25–09:05).
• The imagery suggests Ophelia as a “showgirl” — a woman always performing, at the mercy of men’s attention, paralleling both her historical and modern lack of agency (08:37, 09:06).

5. Album Structure as a Puzzle

• Joe points out the intentional structural parallels: the opening (“The Fate of Ophelia”) and closing (“The Life of a Showgirl”) tracks both spotlight fictional and real personas, include troubled father figures, and use mirrored narrative construction (12:26–13:32).
• The repeated “F” sounds and mirrored titles suggest purposeful album-wide motifs (13:05).

“Taylor promised us that this would be a perfect puzzle… the first song and the last song have a parallel structure for a reason… they both have in them a bad father.”
— Joe (13:32, 13:46)

6. Rewriting Tragedy: Taylor vs. Shakespeare

• Taylor is criticized for “rewriting Hamlet,” but the hosts point out that Shakespeare himself rewrote existing works and flagrantly ignored linear timelines and other conventions (14:43–15:11).

7. Timestamps & Thematic Song Dissections

• Lyric references unpacked:
  • "I heard you on the megaphone" — alludes to Travis Kelce’s public courtship and his podcast shoutout (17:39–17:56).
  • The motif of show, performance, and breaking the fourth wall, reflected both in the music video and album finale (19:30–19:56).
  • Discussion on “you dug me out of my grave and saved my heart from the fate of Ophelia” — direct allusion to Ophelia’s grave scene and the song’s central metaphor (28:57–29:05).

8. Literary Deep Dive: Hamlet Breakdown

• Joe and Toni reenact the intricacies of Hamlet and Ophelia’s interactions, including parental interference, forced separation, and the infamous "get thee to a nunnery" scene (41:18–49:04).
• These historical sexist dynamics are linked to modern patriarchal pressures in both Ophelia and Swift’s narratives.

“This is the key point from… Act 1, Scene 3… Laertes [says]… you can’t trust Hamlet… their father comes in… and says, I want you to stop talking to him… that kind of bothers Hamlet.”
— Joe (41:18–42:40)

9. Easter Eggs, Numerology, and Meta Commentary

• Taylor’s use of “triskaidekaphilia” (love of 13) as both a Swift trademark and a linguistic wink at “Ophelia” (29:54–30:28).
• Room 87 in the music video, football references: persistent engagement with Swift’s and Kelce’s identities (32:10–32:36).
• Swift’s meticulous detail—hidden text, visual cues, and narrative structure—encourage repeated, deeper engagement (32:53–33:13).

10. Agency Debated: Metanarrative vs. Lyrical Subtext

• The hosts ultimately reconcile the apparent loss of agency within the song’s story with Swift’s demonstrable real-world agency as creator and storyteller (40:00–41:17).
• Ophelia as both a victim and a warning; Taylor-as-performer both subject and director (40:42).

“She is also the director, the writer, and the singer… So at the same time, in the song… she’s handing over this agency to Travis. But in the larger scheme, she decided to write this song… She has a lot of agency and she entertains.”
— Joe (40:42)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Criticisms of Taylor’s Literacy
  “Taylor has been accused by the critics of somehow not knowing what Hamlet is about… I think it’s safe to say she probably knows what happened in that scene.”
  — Joe (01:46, 04:12)

• On The Album’s Ambition
  “Taylor promised us that this would be a perfect puzzle…”
  — Joe (13:32)

• On Agency and the Patriarchy
  “It is because of the patriarchy. Which this song is partly about. And as is the entire album. Taylor loves to write about the patriarchy.”
  — Joe (00:56)

• On Artistic Reinterpretation
  “Shakespeare stole all his plays and rewrote them… it’s okay to rewrite plays.”
  — Joe (14:44)

• On The Album Being a Show
  “This is also a entire show… she’s constructed it… as a perfect puzzle.”
  — Joe (19:56–20:04)

• Father Figures and Rebellion
  “She explicitly says in the beginning, my father opposes this and we can’t be seen together or we’re dead. But she rewrites the ending so that the guy goes to her father and he approves. That’s what she did to Romeo and Juliet.”
  — Joe (14:44–15:03)

---

Key Timestamps

• 00:56 — Taylor, Shakespeare, and the patriarchy
• 02:01–03:20 — Joe Alwyn as Laertes; Taylor’s exposure to Hamlet through personal life
• 05:40–07:24 — Ophelia’s arc, women’s agency, and Taylor’s subversion through fire/water symbolism
• 08:25–09:06 — Music video analysis, showgirl parallels, performativity
• 12:26–13:46 — Album structural parallels and thematic links
• 14:44–15:03 — Taylor’s narrative rewrites (Romeo and Juliet)
• 17:39–17:56 — “Megaphone” lyric/Taylor and Travis Kelce context
• 28:57–29:19 — "You dug me out of my grave" lyric analysis
• 32:10–32:36 — Numerology and football Easter eggs in the video
• 41:18–44:02 — Act 1, Scene 3: Ophelia, Polonius, and agency in Hamlet
• 44:46–49:04 — Breakdown of the "get thee to a nunnery" scene and its impact

---

Summary Flow & Takeaways

This episode is an example of how close literary analysis, personal context, and playful banter can make for a rich, engaging discussion of pop music that both entertains and educates. Joe and Toni approach Taylor Swift’s album—especially its opening and closing tracks—as an intentional narrative arc paralleling the journey from victimhood (Ophelia) to self-authorship (Showgirl), with themes of agency, gender, and reclaiming narrative power woven throughout. The layered, referential songwriting, reinforced by symbolism in lyrics and visuals, rewards deep-dive analysis but also functions at a surface pop level—illustrating why Swift’s work is so hotly debated and so enduringly popular.

For new listeners and Swifties alike, this episode offers tools for decoding Taylor’s art and making connections to their own narratives, reinforcing Swift as not just a pop star, but a modern storyteller in the tradition of Shakespeare.

---

For Further Listening

The next episode will focus on another pivotal song from the album—stay tuned for more literary connections and Swiftian secrets.

---

“We can all be tortured poets together.”
— Toni (31:05)

---

Transcript

[A]

Jack Daniels is proudly served in fine establishments, questionable joints and everywhere in between. So no matter where you go in every bar, you'll always know someone by name.

[B]

Jack Jack and Coke.

[A]

Shot of Jack.

[B]

Jack Daniels, please.

[A]

Right away. That's what makes Jack Jack. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org Jack Daniels and old number seven are registered trademarks. Tennessee whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee hello. Welcome to Decoding Taylor Swift. This episode will blow your mind, take on the critics, and change how you think about the fate of Ophelia and the entire album, especially the final song, the Life of a Showgirl. I'm co host Joe Rome.

[B]

I'm Antonia. I'm his daughter. Also Rome.

[A]

Also Rome. Yes.

[B]

It is because of the patriarchy.

[A]

The patriarchy, which this song is partly about. And as is the entire album. Taylor loves to write about the patriarchy. And this, of course, has to be my favorite song.

[B]

This is one of my faves off the album.

[A]

And of course, I'm kind of a Hamlet nerd.

[B]

Yeah, he's biased. He has like the entire script. He has a framed picture of the entire script in his apartment. The entire script.

[A]

I do one. One singular poster that has all of the words of Hamlet. They're too small to read. It's really not.

[B]

You can read it if you really try.

[A]

I did, however, bring one of my trusty beaten up copies, which is all marked up with the key lyrics because.

[B]

Nerd alert.

[A]

Nerd alert. Because, you know, Taylor has been accused by the critics of somehow not knowing what Hamlet is about. Is like, this isn't how Hamlet goes.

[B]

I feel like if you're a writer, like, you probably know about Hamlet, it's like one of those things.

[A]

Yeah. And I think it's important for people to know in sort of one of the great coincidences that. So a movie came out this year, Hamlet, an updated modernization of the movie. But back in May 2022, it was announced that the person playing Laertes who, who is Ophelia's brother is none other than Joe Alwyn.

[B]

Yes. One of Taylor Swift's evil exes.

[A]

Yes. One who she's written many songs about and she was dating at the time. In fact, she dated until like March 23rd. And we don't even know how far in advance of that May 22nd date.

[C]

She.

[A]

There were discussions with. With Alwyn and the producers of the movie. But the point is, guess what? He was probably rehearsing lines for Laertes and it wouldn't be a very big stretch if Taylor heard them or saw copies of Hamlet lying around or maybe even rehearsed with him some of Ophelia's lines. It would be very interesting if we could ask Taylor a question. I think that would be a very interesting question if that's sort of where this got John Ed up in her head again.

[B]

I agree. I agree. That's a good point. Fact, fact, fact.

[A]

And, and, and, and it is very much worth noting. And we'll get to just so happens that one of the lines in the song quotes the scene, the first scene between Ophelia and her brother. In fact, it's a line from Ophelia to her brother.

[B]

That's pretty much a direct quote. There's like a few things change, but.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's just locked inside my memory. And you alone possess the key. Right. So it's not like a long stretch to say, did Taylor hear that in the course of, you know, Joe Alwyn, her boyfriend.

[B]

Tis in my memory locked and you yourself shall keep. The key of it is the direct quote.

[A]

Right. Which sounds a lot like the quote that she used.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I think.

[B]

Which is on purpose.

[A]

On purpose, I think. And I think it's safe to say she probably knows what happened in that scene. And we will get to that scene because I think that scene, why Ophelia dies, is important. It's important to this song. And that scene sets the stage for how Ophelia goes down the wrong path. But let's start. Let's start actually by playing the chorus there. It's a banger. I think it's. I think if you listen to it enough, it sort of becomes a banger.

[B]

It's a good song. I think the lyrics are really good.

[A]

Tell me about how you feel about this song. Just your impression of the song.

[B]

Well, here's my impression. In AP lit, we read Hamlet, obviously, because, like, you have to. It's my favorite Shakespeare play, that Twelfth Night and Much Ado About Nothing. I enjoy Shakespeare. He's the real nerd, though, so there's no beating that. So I won't even try. But I really like Hamlet. I think my overall opinion of this song, I think it's interesting that she chose for Ophelia to kind of, you know, like the whole. The whole arc of her character is that she lacks agency. That's kind of the whole point of her story. Shakespeare. Shakespeare was very well known for giving women very well rounded parts, kind of making them real. And he really took pains to make sure that people understood that. She is like, she's A person. She's trying to live how she wants to live, but she can't. Right. Like, the whole point of her story is that she is at the mercy of all the men in her life. And describing her in the song as being saved by a man is, I think, an interesting choice. I don't know if it's the moment, if you really know Shakespeare, to kind of do a. Like, a man saved me from the fate of Ophelia, when the whole point of the fate of Ophelia is that men drove her to. To commit suicide and kill herself, basically. However, I think it's very interesting that she subverted the story itself of her committing suicide by saying she uses the word fire a lot. You pulled me from the fire and set my heart on fire. You light the match, you watch it to blow. You're quite the pyro. She dies in water. She drowns herself. Well, kind of. She trips and falls or whatever. She just ends up in a hole.

[A]

The branch in the tree that she's in breaks, and we'll get into it. I believe the way Shakespeare constructs it and the language he uses is meant to imply not that she intentionally killed herself, but that she was sort of so off her rocker. Right. I mean, she's been driven so mad by these men and that she's incapable of understanding where she is and what she's doing. Right. So it's just. It's not intentional. In fact, the line in the play in Hamlet is incapable of her own distress. Right. She just doesn't understand what's going on. One thing I want to say, and I think we will get into this a bit more, is it's important to remember the music video. Sure. Because the music video isn't a retelling of Ophelia, to say the least. It's not a test. Yeah.

[B]

It kind of treats it as, like. It's kind of irreverent, you know, like, she's like, oh, like, I'm not really Ophelia. Like, she kind of is, like, just posing for these photos, and then she'll kind of go outside the picture. Yeah. You describe it.

[A]

Right. Well, we. We see.

[B]

That's how I took it.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it's part of. It is the history of showgirls. Right. We see showgirls in different eras, like, I think the flapper era. And we see a Marilyn Monroe version. And then we see, you know, a Busby Berkeley, you know, big extravaganza with the lifesavers, you know, and then we also see sort of A modern version.

[D]

And.

[B]

Which implies that, like, kind of like Ophelia is like a showgirl. Like, she was a showgirl. The life of a showgirl is one of kind of madness. That's what I also.

[A]

Yeah. And I think this song. I think this is really important point, which I. I've listened to this song a lot. As I do.

[B]

As he does. Yeah. Please, please. If you are a woman in his age range, like 45, let's say to like 70, reach out to him because he needs to leave the house. He needs to leave his house. Please, I'm begging you. This is not a joke. He needs to have somebody that will take him away from his computer and Spotify. Please, please. Well, I'd like to my digression over. Please, please. I like to feel I'm scared for him so much. So much of the time. I'm so scared for him. Okay. Anyway, you're. You're great, dad, but thank you.

[A]

By the way, this is your advice to me and them is similar to Laertes advice in that scene, because Laertes tells Ophelia that he can't. That she can't trust a single word that Hamlet says. And you should fear him, Ophelia. Fear him. So, yeah, look, I will say I do listen to these songs a lot. That's how we got this podcast in the first place. But I. I also listen.

[B]

Instead of getting tested for several mental, you know, problems, let's say we start the podcast. Yay.

[A]

I think hopefully the podcast is some form of therapy.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Although maybe it just is.

[B]

Sure, sure.

[A]

But that's what we say. Great art.

[B]

Instead of getting diagnosed with adhd, he does this podcast. Yay. So, Dad, I love you.

[A]

Let me tell you something I realized, okay, as you say this question, particularly through the music video, is how much are we to think of Ophelia as some version of a show girl?

[B]

Right. That's what I'm saying.

[A]

Right. And we will see. Ophelia in the play is asked by her father, in fact, ordered by her father to put on a show, because, yes, the play.

[B]

Oh, my gosh, the play scene. It's crazy.

[A]

And Ophelia, Hamlet clearly loved Ophelia. I don't think there's any question about it. And Hamlet's mother in the graveyard scene says that he. She thought they were going to get married. Right. So. And Ophelia herself, in the Act 1, Scene 3 that we've been talking about, tells Polonius that. And we'll get to some of the specifics, but tells her Father.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Polonius.

[A]

He wooed me, honestly, and said he was in love with me. Right. And so. But her father asks her to pretend that she doesn't like him, to stop talking to him, to turn him away, and that her acting is kind of what sets partly their relationship falling apart. But let me get back to this idea that there's some connection between the first song, which is the Fate of.

[B]

Ophelia, and the last song, which is.

[A]

The Life of a Showgirl. The Fate of Ophelia, the Life of a Showgirl. The Fate of Ophelia, the Life of a Showgirl. Sounds. They repeat the same F sounds that we also saw in Father Figure. Right. There's the Fate of Ophelia, three Fs. There's Father Figure, two Fs, and Life of a Showgirl, two Fs. The structure of the titles is the same. Right. The songs also have a similar structure in that they do the. The Fate of Ophelia is about an imaginary person, Ophelia and a real person. Supposedly. Some version of. We've had this discussion. Some version of Taylor Swift. Sure. The Life of a Showgirl is about an imaginary person. This Kitty and Taylor Swift. And the second verse in both of them is where we get the backstory of each character.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I'm just saying that Taylor promised us that this would be a perfect puzzle, that these songs here would be that we picked these songs and they're there for hundreds of reasons. We.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And you couldn't have had one more or one last. And I'm just saying that the first song and the last song have a parallel structure for a reason. They both have in them a bad father.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. Not a. I don't think any of this is an accident. Right. When we were in season one, we go through a lot of songs where internal to one song. There's a lot of structure that Max Martin, co author, had said, I like folklore.

[B]

And Shellbach.

[A]

And Shellbach. Yes.

[B]

Not Shell, Drake.

[A]

And I think everyone knows Max Martin. He is almost tied with Paul McCartney for the. They're basically the top two songwriters of all time. And. And she. And he may pass McCartney soon, maybe even with this album. If this song, you know, if the Fate of Ophelia starts at number one. Let me make one more piece of background because people.

[B]

Let him make one more.

[A]

Yeah, One more. People accuse Taylor of, like, rewriting Hamlet. Now, we discussed last season, Taylor rewriting Romeo and Juliet. Right. She loves Shakespeare, doesn't like certain characters having tragic endings. You know, it's quite interesting that that story is also about a relationship that was destroyed by parents by the father's feud. And in fact, that song, she explicitly says in the beginning, my father opposes this and we can't be seen together or we're dead. But she rewrites the ending so that the guy goes to her father and he approves. Right? So that's what she did to Romeo and Juliet. And all I'll say is that Shakespeare stole all of his plays and rewrote them. Hamlet is a story that apparently someone had put out a version of Hamlet 10 years earlier and Shakespeare just grabbed it and rewrote it entirely and turned it into one of the greatest plays of all time. But it's okay to rewrite plays. And even that modern version of Hamlet, Joe Alowin is. It's a modern version set in present day. Right. So it's okay to reinvent stuff. Fact. Yeah, let's get into the song. Yeah. So the first line of the song.

[C]

Is if you've shopped online, it's extremely likely that you've bought from a business powered by Shopify. You know that purple shop pay button.

[B]

You see at checkout?

[C]

The one that makes the process from I think I'm ready to buy to I can't wait till it gets here. So incredibly easy.

[B]

That's Shopify.

[C]

And there's a reason so many businesses sell with it because Shopify makes it easy to start and run your business. Shopify is the commerce platform behind 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. It gives you a leg up from the very beginning with hundreds of beautiful, ready to go templates to express your brand style so you don't have to spend time coding a website. Shopify allows you to tackle all the important tasks and in one place, from inventory to payments to analytics and more. Plus they have built in marketing and email tools to help find and keep new customers so you can easily spread your brand's word. And did I mention that iconic purple shop pay button that's used by millions of businesses around the world? It's the reason why Shopify has the best converting checkout on the planet. Your customers already know it, love it, and actually use it. If you want to see less carts being abandoned and it's time for you to head over to Shopify, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com realm go to shopify.com realm shopify.com realm.

[A]

I heard you on the megaphone.

[B]

Sure. Referencing obviously the fact that Travis Kelce tried to meet her at one of her concerts and, you know, use the Internet as a megaphone to try and connect with her.

[A]

Right. And the podcast, he couldn't meet her. He tried to meet her, didn't do a great job of. As he discussed on the podcast with her. And so he had to go back on his New Heights podcast and say. And say, I want to meet you, Taylor Swift. And so that's sort of a megaphone. He was using a regular microphone. His podcast was popular. But megaphone appears. There's a megaphone in the video. Right. The megaphone in the video was kind of a director's sort of a megaphone, sort of an old fashioned one. Taylor put out a video, a kind of self mocking video where she uses an actual megaphone to direct herself in Life of a Showgirl. And that's also played at the beginning of the movie version. So there's all this stuff about megaphones and microphones and communications and directing. And I think this is also connected to the life of a Showgirl because at the very end of the Life of a Showgirl, Taylor breaks the fourth wall and basically speaks into a microphone to say thank you to the crowd and thank you to the players and all that. So, you know, I think that this line does foreshadow the very end and the whole notion that this is a show.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

The reason she breaks the fourth wall in the final song, and we'll get to that in our last episode when we do like the Showgirl, but is she's putting on a show. Right. So she's cosplaying, as she sometimes says she is. Right. So she's. And this is. Means you have to think about this album a little differently.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right. On the one level, yes, you can look at the songs as individual songs, but this is also a entire show.

[B]

Yes, it is a show.

[A]

Right. And she's constructed it, she says, as a perfect puzzle. And so that's why I think there's more here. You know, there's a lot of hot takes on this.

[B]

Yeah. I think, I think people. I think there are two sides to this. One is that there's a lot of nuance missing from a lot of the discussions about this album. Because a lot of people, I don't think, are giving it the proper context that it like deserves. Right. As like a show and not just like an album at the same time. There is an argument to be made about how pop albums like albums these days. They should be accessible to everyone. They shouldn't really need that much nuance to like. Like the song or get it. You know, you should be able to like the song if you want to learn about more, you know, like. Like 1989 or even folklore. You know, you could get folklore if you just listen to folklore, but now there's, like, a movie. There's, like, all these tracks. There's, like, all this, all of that, and people don't like that, which I think. I think is fair. I think that's fair. But I also think at the same time, there is. There is something to be said about, like, she's an artist. She's, like, releasing this and doing what she wants with it, you know, as she wants, because she's. It's her artistic vision, you know.

[A]

Yeah. And look, this is a popular album, right? It's not like. I mean, her job, as she said. I think she said on Jimmy Fallon, you know, that I'm an entertainer, so, you know, like, job number one is to entertain. And this. This album has already broken Adele's record from a decade ago for the most sales of an album in the first week. The song the Fate of Ophelia has the most streams of any song broke that record. And we will find out. I think this week, this. This podcast should drop on a Tuesday. I think that's when Billboard will. Will announce she might have the top 10 songs, or most of them, which, again, you know, she's done it twice before, but no one else has ever done it once. So, you know, I do think, you know, there's sort of. I think we talked about this three ways of looking at a song. How do you personally. You personally like it or not like it, right? That's kind of beyond dispute. If you don't like it, you know, as Taylor says, she's not the art police, Right. Maybe you hate chicken.

[B]

You don't like it.

[A]

Right. Whatever.

[B]

Sure. Maybe you hate Taylor Swift. And that's also funny.

[A]

Maybe you hate Taylor Swift. A lot of people who do. Then there's, how does the public like it? That's sort of her main job, right? And then there are these bigger ambitions of what does it mean? What is quality? Right? And we have different views of what quality. Some people, I heard you say, well, they don't think Taylor has a great voice, right? She's not Adele, Right. No one's gonna say she's Adele, but.

[B]

She has a good voice, I think.

[A]

Yeah, she has a good voice.

[B]

She's. But she's not a vocalist. She's a singer songwriter, so that's an important distinction to make.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Like Ariana Grande, Adele, Mariah Carey, and even Beyonce. Like, they're all vocalists. They have, like, amazing voices, but Taylor Swift is not one of those. She's like, you know, I mean, Lady Gaga is another vocalist. She's. She's more in the magnitude of, like. Like, I don't know. She's like. Like. I'm trying to think of people like Harry Styles. I mean, like, his voice is good. He's not like a trained vocalist, you know, like, yeah, he's gonna say Billie Eilish. Billie Eilish is like, cusp for me because she has a really, really great voice, but I don't know if she's, like, classically trained like that. But, yeah, the point is, like, yes, there's room for people to have, like, not so great voices, you know, and.

[A]

And.

[B]

And then there's production, which is the other way that people look at it. And people have been commenting on the production of this album as kind of, I don't know, not bland, but just not as, you know, out there as, like, 1989. And I think that that's fair. But I do think that. I think this is a chiller album than 1989 because I think it's. It's trying to do something different, you know?

[A]

Yeah, she tries different things. And, you know, I think she. She. You know, I will say that I think the album got a little overhyped on the New Heights podcast when I got a little misled. I'll just say, not on Taylor and. And her. But her enthusiastic, now fiance, you know, said, these are 12 bangers. They're all bangers. They're not all bangers. You know, I think some of them are bangers. And I don't think anyone should really expect someone to put out 12 bangers. But let's. Let's continue on. And I do want to say the one other arc that Taylor has put in between the first song and the last song is the fate of Ophelia is death.

[B]

Yeah. And it's the life of a showgirl.

[A]

Right. It's the life of a showgirl. So there's this arc she has created. Fact, facts. So I heard you calling on the megaphone. You want to see me all alone? As legend has it, you are quite the pyro. You light the match to watch it blow.

[B]

And so, right, they call themselves tnt.

[A]

Taylor and Travis, so their nickname is TNT Dynamite. And they are explosive together. And he's fiery. She's called him fiery.

[B]

Yeah. And also the fate of Ophelia. Drowning, water, fire, opposite of water. And she got saved from that. So just. Yeah. Thank God my phone fell.

[A]

She goes on to saying, and if you'd never come for me, I might have drowned in the melancholy.

[B]

And.

[A]

Again, is she talking about herself? Yes, but it's metaphorical. She's not saying she would have died. She's just saying she's been going out with guys like Joe Alwyn and Matty Healy and, you know, Rake Jake.

[B]

Rake Snake. Fake Jake.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

So two thumbs down for him. You know, ass.

[A]

And a melancholy is something that runs through Hamlet. Hamlet clearly has some sort of melancholia. He says, I, you know, I have of late, and I know not whereof lost all my mirth. Right. So he's had.

[B]

He just knows, like, all of these freaking quotes, bro.

[A]

Well, these are famous quotes. I.

[B]

Can you do Act 2, Scene 3, not something from Act 2, Scene 3?

[A]

I. I have the play here. But.

[B]

But can you do something from Frian? Act three, scene two. That's very easy.

[A]

Act three, act three, scene be or not to be? Yes, that is the question.

[B]

And isn't that act one scene? Act three, scene two? Maybe it's not.

[A]

It is.

[B]

Maybe act three, scene two is. Is get thee to a nunnery.

[A]

Those are the same scene.

[B]

Yeah, I know this, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It happens right after Act 3 scene.

[A]

Act 3, Scene 1 is the to be or not to be speech.

[B]

Really? I thought it was when Polonius, like, pulls up and he's like.

[A]

Well, it's a very long scene.

[B]

It's a very long scene. That's right.

[A]

In Act 3 scene. But it is the central scene, and we will get to it, because it is this. It is the get thee to the nunnery speech.

[B]

Yes. This nerd conversation is a very important conversation. Just note that we aren't being nerds. We're actually doing a podcast and we're connecting it. Connecting the dots. Yes. The get thee to a nunnery speech is what precipitates the fate of Ophelia, shall we say? Is that the right word to use? I felt like using the word precipitates, but.

[A]

Well, precipitation leads to rain and rain leads to drowning, so there you go.

[B]

Facts. Oh, my gosh. So you're getting your money's worth with this school.

[A]

We will. We. I will come back to that. I wanna. I wanna. I swore my loyalty to me, myself and I. Right before you lit my sky up. Oh, we got a nice musical background there.

[B]

Oh, my God. Yes. Listen to these piano players in the other room. Somebody was playing, trying to attempt to play Small Worlds by Mac Miller, and it was not doing a good job. I'm glad you guys couldn't hear it.

[A]

Anyway, so let's dive into the chorus. All that time I sat alone in my tower?

[B]

You were just honing, Honing your powers. Wait, no, let's do it together. Now I can see, Now I can.

[A]

See it all this is going poorly.

[B]

Late one night night you took.

[A]

You dug me out of my grave.

[B]

And saved my heart from the fate of Ophelia.

[A]

Right. And to be clear, you have to sing it. You dug me out of my grave and.

[B]

Yeah, you dug me out of my grave and stole my heart from the fate of Ophelia Grave and.

[A]

And fate of sort of are the rhymes.

[B]

Yeah, they're kind of fake rhymes.

[A]

Right. And the fate of Ophelia.

[B]

Well, you know Triska Decke.

[A]

Ophelia.

[B]

Ophelia. That's like his whole thing. He's like.

[A]

That is my thing. I was on a podcast so Bad It's Good with Ryan Bailey, and he has a great podcast in which he talks about pop culture. And he's also a Shakespeare guy, as it turns out, and he, as most.

[B]

Old white men are, they're nerds. Yeah, sorry. Not old.

[A]

Not old.

[B]

You're young at heart.

[A]

All right. Young at heart. But he was persuaded that the fact that Taylor used the word tristica decephylia on the. To describe people who Love the number 13, which she obviously does. Love the number 13.

[B]

She does.

[A]

And so does Travis and Jason.

[B]

Jason loves number 13.

[A]

Yes. And it just so happens.

[B]

It just so happens.

[A]

Triska. Decafilia may be the only word in the English language that has the word Ophelia in it.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So, you know, maybe not.

[B]

That's actually facts. Is it the only word?

[A]

If someone else is out there, you can comment.

[B]

Comment down below. How stupid and dumb we are forgetting.

[A]

Please put comments. By the way, I want to thank all the listeners.

[B]

Thank you, listeners. No, thank you. Seriously. Oh, my gosh. The equivalent of, like, this, like, couldn't happen without you. And he would just be saying this all to me, and I would have nobody to complain about him to, because I would just be hearing all of this, and I'd be like, oh, man. I'd be tortured for probably, like, hours upon hours. But now you can all be tortured with me.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We can all be tortured poets together.

[A]

Wanda. Thank you. We. We have been doing very well in.

[B]

I love you, Dad.

[A]

I love you too. I love you too, Antonia.

[B]

Aww. I love you, too.

[A]

And Tony is the star of the show.

[B]

Top 10, dad. No, you are the star. I am but a white dwarf. That's what my friends call me because I'm short.

[A]

That's, I think, kind of mean.

[B]

I'm just kidding. That's what they called me middle school. No, I'm just kidding. Nobody calls me that. Let's get started.

[A]

You are the precursor to a white dwarf. You are a supernova.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Very nerdy to get astrophysics. Nerdy with everybody.

[B]

Oh, man. That's my major period.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Physical philosophy.

[A]

So, yeah. All right. Okay. Let's, I think, get back to the song.

[B]

Oh, yeah. We're talking about adult, right?

[A]

We are talking about the love of the number 13. Taylor's love of the number 13, which appears in this song. When she says, keep it 100.

[B]

Keep it 100. Cause it's 87 and 13. 87. 13. Cause Travis Kelce's number 87, she 13.

[A]

And in the music video, when, at the very end, when someone tosses her the football, when she's talking about the team, she goes into room 87. She goes into room 87. Yes.

[B]

Period.

[A]

It's there. So, yes.

[B]

He sent me a whole article that I should have read but did not about, like, all the Easter eggs. I just watched the video. I caught most of them. I caught most of them.

[A]

There are a lot of Easter eggs. Well, apparently there's a lot. Apparently there's like, the rug at the beginning says Ophelia on it and. No, it's just. Yeah, there's just kind of crazy stuff here.

[B]

I appreciate. I think attention to detail is honestly such a green flag. So, you know, like. Like, I. I feel like people who hate Taylor Swift just don't understand that she's just, like, a few steps ahead. Like, I respect that in women. Like, that's why you could really never get me to hate her. Because, like, I have to respect. I have to respect the grind, you know? I really do.

[A]

Well, let me. Let me make one point.

[B]

But I love her. I think she's cool.

[A]

This gets to this question of agency, right? On the one hand, this is a song where she says this. This in the chorus, she. She says, late one night, you dug me out of my grave and saved my heart from the fate of Ophelia. Right. That's sort of the central point in the play Hamlet. She ends up in a grave. In fact, there's a big debate as to whether she should get the full burial or did she commit suicide, and therefore she's a sin. Right. Now, again, pretty clear in the play that she doesn't really commit suicide. She dies insensible, and it's not her fault, but is.

[B]

And honestly, I'm pretty sure that if you're, like, insane and you commit suicide, it didn't really count as a sin or something like that.

[A]

Yeah, well. And. Right. I mean, she. Clearly, in the play, it is.

[B]

In fact, it's not that I count it as a sin, you know.

[A]

Well, the queen sings the story of how she dies, and she goes up this willow tree and she starts picking out vines and leaves and creating a crown, right? And she's singing this whole time. And then the branch breaks and she falls into the weeping brook and her clothes spread wide and mermaid, like, they keep her afloat for a while. She starts singing again as one incapable of her own distress, which is to say insensible to. She's unaware of what's happening to her. And that's pretty clear in the final songs that she sings to the king and queen. Right.

[B]

They're kind of off during that scene, too. She's supposedly, like, handing them. Like in the script, it says she's handing them flowers. Like, you know, I don't know. Remembrance. Yeah, like lavender. But what. How people choose to stage it. Because usually Shakespeare doesn't give many staging directions. People choose to stage it. Like, she. Like, if it's a modern retelling, she's, like, freaking handing out, like, screws and bolts.

[A]

Right?

[B]

It's an older retelling. It's like a piece of grass. Like. Like, oh, here's. Here's Violet. Violet's for membranes. And it's literally like, I don't know, a stick that she found on the ground. Because she's on, like. Yeah, like, she's, like, genuinely unwell and.

[A]

She'S out of touch with reality. Right. She's lost touch.

[B]

And by the way, also, are those my old headphones?

[A]

They are your old headphones because they fit well. And there's a nice jack into the back of this nice new shure.

[B]

I used to wear that to listen to Taylor Swift while I played Minecraft.

[A]

There you go. Everything. So many memories of doing that foreshadowing here.

[B]

There's some foreshadowing.

[A]

So I just want to quickly say about this agency, what she's saying here is that Travis goes into the grave and carries her out of the grave.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Right. And Sarah somehow reincarnates her. Right. In the play. It's a very big scene in the play when she's put into the.

[C]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans.

[A]

Send event invites and pin messages so.

[C]

No one forgets mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone.

[B]

All protected with end to end encryption.

[A]

It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn [e-mail] Grave Hamlet's mother says, I hoped that thou shouldst have been my Hamlet's wife. So his mother thought that they might get married, right? That it was a real thing. But Laertes hears this. He gets really pissed and says, I really am the one who loved Ophelia. And he jumps into the grave and says, you can throw all the dust on me so that both she and I get buried, right? So he's kind of bonkers at this point. And Hamlet has been listening in on all this. And he jumps in and says, who is, you know, what is he whose grief bears such an emphasis, right? And he says he loved her the most I, Hamlet the Dane. And he jumps in after Laertes and they start struggling. I mean, it's a bonkers play. Just to be clear, this is a one, you know, maybe the greatest play of all time.

[B]

And she's like 16, by the way. She's like a kid, right?

[A]

So into this imagination and Hamlet's 19.

[B]

Which is like kind of okay, but it's like, I mean, for olden times, it's like fine, but just like, just like keep in your mind that this is like a 19 and a 20 year old fighting over a 16 year old. So just like keep that in mind.

[A]

Facts, sort of. Yeah, because in the beginning of the play, we know Hamlet is a student at a college Wittenberg. By the end of the play, we get a story that Hamlet was born 30 years earlier when his father killed King Fortinbras in a duel. So Shakespeare plays very loosely with the reality going from, oh, he's just a 19 year old to in fact, he's a 30 year old because he wants people to see Hamlet as sort of gaining being callow youth in the beginning and sort of being a bit older at the end. But the point is, yes, Shakespeare has blown up the timeline of Hamlet, just to be clear, right? He doesn't care that his play doesn't follow a, you know, a linear reality, right? And of course, those plays were just. This is 1600, right? So we, when you talk about 1600s.

[B]

You could be 19 one day, 30 the next day, and then obviously, you'd be dead the day after.

[A]

Well, and to be clear, nobody was talking much about whether a woman had agency in the year 1600.

[B]

16 is basically like three children already out the oven.

[A]

Juliet was having her, what, 14th birthday?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. So, yeah, guess what? People didn't live that long. And, yes, people got married early because people died in childbirth. Right. So.

[B]

Well, that's another thing for using Ophelia. Taylor Swift is kind of saying that she feels like she's maintaining this youthful energy, too. Like, she's kind of saying, like, you know, I mean. Yeah, Like, I think she's talking about how she. She implicit. She implies that she thinks she's in the prime of her career, you know?

[A]

Well, and I'll also say that.

[B]

And she was. She was a star from a young age, too. I don't know if that's what you were gonna say, but I think that is important to note, you know?

[A]

Yeah. Well, I was actually also gonna say this question of agency, Right. That somehow Taylor is abandoning her agency.

[B]

But, well, she's in the whims of the recording academy, the entertainment industry, all the fans, everybody, you know?

[A]

But she's also the director, the writer, and the singer. Right, Right. She has put on this show. Right. So at the same time, in. In the song, individual narrative, yes. She's handing over this. This agency to Travis. But in the larger scheme of things, she decided to write this song.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

She wrote it, she directed it. You know, she put together the music video. And she has a lot of agency and she entertains. Right. So you can choose to take it either way. If you want to say Taylor has ripped away Ophelia's agency. Well, okay, but to be clear, Ophelia gave up her own agency. This is the key point from. And I just want to briefly read this. In Act 1, Scene 3, this is. We meet the family of Ophelia, Laertes, and Polonius.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It begins with Laertes saying to Ophelia, you can't trust Hamlet. I know you've started. You know, we heard that you're starting to see him maybe in private chambers. You can't trust him because you can't trust guys, literally.

[B]

I know that's right. I know that's right.

[A]

And. And she says to Laertes, I shall the effects of this lesson keep. But good, my brother. Do not, as some ungracious pastors do, show me the steep and thorny way to heaven while you go down the primrose path of dalliance, which is saying.

[B]

Don'T be a hypocrite bitch, right?

[A]

Don't you go around. Don't tell me to not trust Hamlet. But then you go messing around, doing what you're saying Hamlet's gonna do. But then her father comes in and her father says, polonius, what were you talking? Polonius comes in and says, what were you talking to Laertes about? And he says, I was talking to him about Hamlet. Oh. And he said, well, that's a good subject because you've been kind of free with your audience, with him. You've been hanging around with him, playing.

[B]

Friggin fast and loose with him.

[A]

And he said, what is between you? Give me up the truth, right? She says, he hath, my lord, of late made me many tenders of his affection to me.

[B]

Aw, right.

[A]

And Polonius, he's a dad. Affection pooh. You speak like a green girl.

[B]

What the fuck?

[A]

Unsifted in such perilous circumstances.

[B]

What the hell would you ever say that to me?

[A]

That's crazy.

[B]

But you know, I'm not affection poo. That does sound like you.

[A]

Do you believe now, by the way, I want to say something classic Shakespeare. Polonius says, you speak like a green girl. That foreshadows her ending. She ends up surrounded by green in that drowning, you know, lake with all the flowers and leaves and stuff. So Polonius says, do you believe his tenders, as you call them? And she says, I do not know, my lord, what I should think. And then Polonius, and this is the decisive line in the play, says, mary, I will teach you. Think yourself a baby. So he is saying he is taking away her agency.

[B]

He's saying, yeah, I want you, right?

[A]

You're gonna do what I say. And then she repeats, he hath importuned me with love in honorable fashion. And then she also repeats, he's given me almost all the holy vows of heaven. So it seems like he was actually serious. But he says to her, I want you to stop giving him any audience. And I want you to stop talking to him. Right? And so needless to say, that kind of bothers Hamlet. And we learn later that it does bother Hamlet. But this is the key point that happens in the nunnery scene. Just to get very nerdy here. But I think we're.

[B]

And if people don't know what the nunnery scene is, it's where Hamlet is like, get thee to a nunnery to. To Ophelia.

[A]

So this is the key scene that changes everything. Hamill gives it to Be or not to be speech. What he doesn't know is that the king and Polonius have discussed a plot with Ophelia.

[B]

Yes. Who is Hamlet's uncle, by the way. Just think of the Lion King. You know, it's like Scar, right?

[A]

The king is Hamlet's uncle. Who murdered Hamlet's father and married his mother, just like happened.

[B]

Scar murdered Mufasa. Of course. Obviously.

[A]

So there's this scene going on where Polonius has this idea. I'm gonna send Ophelia in front of Hamlet and stage a little scene and see how he reacts. And then the two of us, King and Polonius, are gonna watch. And we're gonna figure out why he's gone mad. Cause Hamlet's been acting very strange. And I, Polonius, think it's because of my daughter. Yeah, right. So the king goes along with that. So what happens is that Ophelia.

[B]

But it's actually that Ophelia's been acting mad because of Hamlet.

[A]

Ophelia shows up, and not only does she accidentally run into him, but she's got her gifts that he's given her with him and says, I have remembrances of yours, but that I've longed long to redeliver. I pray you now receive them. And Hamlet is a little put off by this because she's the one who's rejected him, not vice versa. And he says, no, not. I never gave you aught. But then she has this couplet she wants to give him back. Rich gifts wax poor when givers prove unkind. And she hands in the gifts, right? She is saying to him, well, if the giver.

[B]

Like. If the giver ain't shit. Like the gifts ain't shit. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

But Hamlet immediately says, ha, ha. Are you honest?

[B]

Oh, my gosh. He says, bitch, are you serious?

[A]

Right? This is. But honest is the key word here because it has two different meanings. Are you telling the truth? And also, are you. Are you being real?

[B]

Are you being real?

[A]

And also with a sexual implication. Right? But the point is that the reason Hamlet gets angry at her is because he's a smart. He's one of the most brilliant characters in literature, supposedly. I mean, in terms of his speeches and all that. He figures out in that moment that this was a setup. That Ophelia has shown up with her gifts and this little speech to stage something. He immediately suspects that her father is there. Because he then says after. Are you honest? He says, where's your father? Where's your father? That comes a few lines later, and he Repeats it. And he says, go to a nunnery. Where's your father, right? So even though Hamlet is mean to her there, he's being mean.

[B]

And by nunnery, like, just tell them, tell them.

[A]

Well, nunnery. It is much debated. Nunnery could mean a nunnery. Because he just says, I don't want. You shouldn't have kids, right? So get thee to a nunnery. And it can mean also a whorehouse, right? It can mean both things. Either way, it's mean, right? Whatever it is, either you're going to have no sex, right, and never have a child, or. Or you're gonna go to this whorehouse. But the point is, you're not fit to be among regular women, basically, and have a normal life. But he's only saying that not because he's lost love for her, but because he's figured out that she is being deceitful to him in this staged scene. Right. Anyway, that is my.

[B]

And that connects to the life of Ophelia because Taylor Swift's father staged their marriage between Travis Kelce. And obviously Travis Kelce's dad was killed and he's trying to take revenge on Taylor Swift song.

[A]

Well, it matters because there are a lot of bad father figures in Taylor Swift songs, right? Even if we do as we did.

[B]

And the patriarchy is like paternal population.

[A]

That's what the patriarchy means, is the father, right? So she. In all too well extended version, she adds five minutes, right? She adds, fuck the patriarchy in cardigan. She says, leaves like a father, right? Right. So she in. In the reason she wrote Love Story, as she explains, but Daddy, I love him, right? Is because her father. She's going out with this boy. Her father disapproves. She screams at her father, but daddy, I love him in the real world. And runs to a room, cries, and writes this song about rewriting the story of Romeo and Juliet where fathers also screw up the kids love. So the point is very much a recurring theme of fathers screwing up things or trying to control their daughters. I think that's pretty much. And that's also a theme of father figure. Metaphorically. The metaphorical father figure tries to control his metaphorical daughter, the protege.

[B]

Okay, time, by the way.

[A]

You know, these are. This song has a lot more going on, I think, than people realize. And I think it. It fits into an album that has more going on than people realize. And doesn't mean you have to like the album or the song. But I think if you're going to do your hot take, you should realize that maybe 12 songs written by three of the finest songwriters of all time. Probably has some stuff going on in it. And, you know, and again, you may choose to think at the end still, I don't like it. But I, I think there's a difference in my mind between saying, I personally don't like it and it's a bad song. Right. It's a bad song. And, you know, so as a Shakespeare nerd, we examine lyrics. We try to understand what Taylor is doing. I do think it will take us going. We'll have to go through all these other songs. Right. Because she refers to eldest daughter here. She does, Right.

[B]

She refers to Julia was the eldest daughter of a nobleman. Yeah.

[A]

Right. So she is referring to a bunch of songs here. This song sets up the album and connects to the final song. And we hope that you will stay with us.

[B]

We hope that you'll stay with us. Please stay. Please stay and tell your friends.

[A]

Listen to us.

[B]

If you tell your friends, tell your enemies.

[A]

Exactly. If you're a Taylor lover and, you know, a Taylor hater, tell them, well, maybe there's more to this than meets the eye. And share with them this. I hope that you will give us some likes and ratings and all that sort of thing. What's our next song?

[B]

Oh, our next song is. Drumroll, please. Do a drum roll. Drum roll. Drumroll. Do a drum roll.

[A]

Do a drum roll. Elizabeth.

[B]

I was going to say. Say it, bro. I was pulling it up on Spotify, bro. I lost track. You're basically like freaking Polonius. You're like Claudius. You're even worse, man.

[A]

Claudius murdered his brother.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, that's.

[A]

That's very harsh, but.

[B]

No, I'm just kidding. I love you. Sorry.

[A]

And we may have a special guest for that podcast. Yeah.

[B]

You are not like Claudius. You are like. Oh, man. What's the name of Hamlet's best friend? He's a cool guy.

[A]

Horatio.

[B]

I love Horatio.

[A]

Big hio.

[B]

You're like Horatio.

[A]

Thank you. I accept your appellation.

[B]

Thank you. Oh, my gosh. Hashtag appellation. Yes. I love that word. We learned that in English class in, like, freshman year. Yes. Hashtag appellation. Yeah. Anyway, okay, well, time to end the episode, I suppose.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Peace out, homies.

[A]

See you next week.

[B]

See you in the next episode. Bye.

[D]

Bye.

[A]

Hey, Michael. Hey, Tom. Okay, so you want to tell him, or you want me to tell him?

[B]

No, no, no.

[A]

I, I, I got this. I want people out there. Yeah. People lean in. Get close, get close. Listen, here's the deal. We have big news we got monumental news. We got snaptacular news. Yeah. After a brief hiatus, my good friend Michael Ian Black and I are coming, coming back. My good friend Tom Kavanaugh and I are coming back to do what we do best, what we were put on this earth to do. To pick a snack, to eat a snack, and to rate a snack scientifically, emotionally, spiritually. Mates is back. Mike and Tommy Snacks is back. A podcast for anyone with a mouth with a mouth. Available wherever you get your podcasts.

[D]

There are vampires out there. They walk among you, shoulder to shoulder in the dark. Heading to work, heading home, going to the bar. It's a life just like anyone else's, and I have grown used to it. To the darkness, to the moon, to the taste of blood on my tongue. But vampires are dying out. We are a fading kind, and I am the first one created in so long. And that is a dangerous thing to be. Those who came before me, elders of all stripes, they do not want to see our kind gone. And they will do anything to keep their power. And for myself and for Grace, who created me, that is a sword that hangs above our heads. And the worst person of all carries our secret. And he will use it however he sees fit. Who do you look to when things are at their darkest? From the creators of Park Dylan Haunt comes Woodbine, a podcast about monsters, dreams and changes, those you want and those you never saw. Coming Season 2 arrives September 24th. Distributed by Realm.