Life of a Showgirl: We rank every song BUT also reveal all of Swift’s storytelling secrets

Summary

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Decoding Taylor Swift

Episode: “Life of a Showgirl: We Rank Every Song BUT Also Reveal All of Swift’s Storytelling Secrets”

Date: January 14, 2026
Hosts: Joe Romm and Toni Romm

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Main Theme & Purpose

In this season finale, Joe and Toni Romm deliver a passionate, in-depth ranking of every track on Taylor Swift’s “Life of a Showgirl” album. Along the way, they reveal Swift’s signature storytelling techniques, explore the emotional resonance and narrative layers in her songwriting, and debate which songs truly stand out—or fall flat. The episode promises “life-changing tools to lead, connect, and change the world” by examining Taylor’s approach to storytelling, with detailed commentary and playful, sometimes fiery exchanges between father and daughter.

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Episode Breakdown

1. Album Overview & Grading Swift (00:23–05:36)

• Cohesion vs. Rawness
  • Antonia praises the album's “focus” but feels it lacks the raw emotional struggle of earlier works.
    • “She’s not fighting to be recognized… the rawness is kind of lost.” — Antonia (01:05)
  • Gives it 3–3.5 “bass clefs” out of 5.
• Grading on a Curve
  • Both agree Swift must be measured against her own discography, not other artists.
    • “That’s the only artistically honest thing to do.” — Antonia (02:53)
• Album Reputation
  • Joe notes that digging deep reveals more in the lyrics than is apparent at first listen.
  • They both dispute the album’s “12 bangers” hype and agree on its overall quality, but see it as less “groundbreaking.”
    • “This is not a 12 banger album.” — Joe (05:00)

2. Top Tracks: Personal Rankings & Rationale

Best Song Picks (05:36–13:16)

• Antonia’s Favorite: "The Life of a Showgirl"
  • “It promises what it is in the title and then it delivers… This song could be in 1989, or Lover, any of her more poppy albums.” — Antonia (06:19)
  • Highlights: the bridge, the strong ending, and its broad appeal.
• Joe’s Favorite: "Fate of Ophelia"
  • Drawn to its lyricism and depth, particularly as a Shakespeare enthusiast
    • “It’s the second time she rewrote one of Shakespeare’s great tragedies.” — Joe (08:26)
  • Influenced by the song’s historic and commercial success: “Her longest duration number one song.” (08:47)
  • Music video praised for literary and visual references.

Second & Third Choices (13:16–22:33)

• Second Place (Antonia): "Fate of Ophelia"
  • Praises lyrics and cultural impact, viral remixes.
  • “It does. I think that lyrically it’s my favorite. Like, objectively, it's very, very good.” — Antonia (07:43)
• Second Place (Joe): "Father Figure"
  • Loves lyricism, narrative parallels to “getaway car,” and the theme of turning the tables.
  • “I liked the two stories that intersect… parallels with getaway car.” — Joe (17:11)
  • Connects Swift’s depiction of father figures to her lived experience in the industry.
• Third Place (Both): “Opalite”
  • Catchy, strong lyrics, metaphor-rich, and “banger” status.
  • “It’s a bop, it’s a banger, whatever you want to call it.” — Joe (23:53)

Honorable Mentions & Noteworthy Songs (21:47–36:41)

• Antonia (#4): “Elizabeth Taylor”
  • Loves rich historical references and allusions.
  • “I love songs with ripe with history.” — Antonia (27:36)
• Joe (#4): “Honey”
  • Appreciates non-literal, layered songwriting (“Words have more than one meaning…”).
  • “You can call me honey if you want, because I’m the one you want.” — Taylor Swift, quoted by Joe (34:47)
• Both discuss “Wood” as a fun, overtly playful song about sexuality, with Toni highlighting Swift’s growth in this realm.

Lower-ranked, Controversial, & Weakest Tracks (46:59–54:01)

• Both agree on their lowest-ranked songs:
  • #11: “Canceled”
  • #12: “Eldest Daughter”
• Criticisms:
  • “Canceled” fails to make a strong point about cancel culture; “Eldest Daughter,” though sonically pleasant, is confusing and tries to cover too much.
  • “There are way better ways to talk about cancel culture.” — Antonia (49:30)

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3. Notable Quotes & Fun Exchanges

• On Grading Swift:
  • “I’m grading her on a curve against herself.” — Antonia (02:50)
• On Songwriting Secrets:
  • “A good songwriter is going to use a lot of buts because buts introduce the tension.” — Joe (24:31)
• On Alliteration:
  • “Father Figure. Failure brings you freedom. The Fs. Fate of Ophelia. Life of a Showgirl. Yes.” — Joe (27:01)
• On Humor and Irony:
  • “She is heavily using irony throughout… Even Shake It Off. Fundamentally, she doesn't shake things off.” — Joe (34:25)
• Playful Banter:
  • “He’s like a conspiracy theorist. He has this on, like, a board in his room… connecting the dots.” — Unspecified Younger Person (12:24)

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4. Storytelling Secrets Revealed (24:31–27:11, 33:22–36:24)

• “Buts” vs. “Ands” Ratio:
  • Tension in songwriting: Taylor uses a high ratio of “buts” to “ands” in lyrics (38% on this album).
• Long-form Metaphor and Allusion:
  • Swift frequently draws on Shakespeare, history (“Elizabeth Taylor”), and intricate wordplay.
• Multipurpose Meanings:
  • Songs double as self-contained stories and as commentaries on her career and relationships.
• Unreliable Narrator & Irony:
  • Taylor sometimes intentionally writes from misleading, complex perspectives, adding narrative richness.
• Alliteration:
  • Recurring technique for lyric stickiness: “Father Figure,” “Fate of Ophelia,” “Failure brings you freedom.”
• Personal Narrative & the Hero’s Journey:
  • “Failure brings you freedom”—using setbacks as pivotal story points, mirroring the classic hero arc.

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5. Timestamped Notable Moments

• 00:50 — Antonia’s initial hot take on album cohesion and tone.
• 03:20 — Discussion of grading Swift “on a curve.”
• 05:35 — Diving into their favorite songs and subjective criteria.
• 07:33 — Antonia on the importance of strong endings in song ranking.
• 08:47 — Joe on “Fate of Ophelia”’s chart performance and music video.
• 12:08 — Joe unpacks the “Triska Decafilia” numerology reference.
• 13:16 — Antonia shares favorite lyrics from “Life of a Showgirl.”
• 17:38 — Joe parallels “Father Figure” to “getaway car” and film tropes.
• 21:54 — Both rank “Opalite” as third for its lyricism and catchiness.
• 24:31 — Songwriting lesson: importance of “buts” for dramatic tension.
• 27:01 — Alliteration and conspiracy-board humor.
• 33:22 — Double meaning, irony, and why “Honey” deserves more attention.
• 40:45 — Joe’s case for “Ruin the Friendship” as a universal regret song.
• 46:59 — Both agree on weakest tracks: “Canceled” and “Eldest Daughter.”
• 49:30 — Antonia’s nuanced critique of cancel culture treatment.

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6. Conclusion & Looking Forward (59:04–end)

• Reflections on Fan and Critical Reception
  • Album was divisive among fans and “over-hated”; many critics appreciate its subtlety.
• Contextualizing Disappointment
  • Lower rankings are, in truth, a comparison to Swift's high standards.
• Next Season Announcement
  • Season three will focus on the ERAS Tour setlist—much anticipation among listeners.

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Episode Guide: Track Rankings Summary

| Antonia’s Top 5 | Joe’s Top 5 | |---------------------|----------------------| | 1. Life of a Showgirl | 1. Fate of Ophelia | | 2. Fate of Ophelia | 2. Father Figure | | 3. Opalite | 3. Opalite | | 4. Elizabeth Taylor | 4. Honey | | 5. Honey | 5. Ruin the Friendship|

Lowest Songs for Both: 11. Canceled, 12. Eldest Daughter

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Final Takeaways:

Taylor Swift’s narrative power isn’t just in the songs—but the way she structures them, layers meaning, and manipulates classic storytelling tools. Even when an album is ‘middling’ by her standards, her craft shines through in metaphor, allusion, and emotional honesty, giving both fans and aspiring storytellers much to decode—and emulate.

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For Listeners:

• If you’re interested in music storytelling, take note of the “but/and” ratio, the use of long-form metaphors, and the power of allusion and narrative tension.
• For Swifties and skeptics alike, this episode will give new appreciation for Swift’s commitment to lyric and form—even where the hosts argue she falls short.

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Stay tuned for Season 3, where the ERAS Tour—and Taylor’s setlist mastery—come under the Romms’ signature magnifying glass.

Transcript

[Antonia]

Well, hello. This is Decoding Taylor Swift, where we dig into the deeper meaning of Taylor Swift's songs. Today, the last episode of season two, we will rank every song on the life of a showgirl with the help of my swifty father, a storytelling expert recognized by Rolling Stone magazine.

[Jo Rome]

Hi, I'm Jo Rome and my daughter Antonia is great at decoding lyrics, writing, and making people laugh.

[Antonia]

Why, thank you.

[Jo Rome]

Taylor Swift is a modern day Shakespeare. When we started the season with a hot take on the album, then we spent 12 episodes decoding each song. And now we're going to give you our final take on the meaning of the album and each song. But stay through the end because along the way we're going to reveal in one place all of Taylor's storytelling secrets. So why don't you start with your now considered take on the album? What do you think about it, the.

[Antonia]

Album as a whole? I think it is definitely a cohesive album. Like it's a. It's. I wouldn't call it a concept album. I would say that that was folklore. But I will say that this album is definitely. It has a focus. It has like a lens through which it chooses to speak, you know, even though you don't speak through lenses. You know what I mean? But perhaps I have more to learn from Taylor's metaphors than I thought anyway. But I think that where it fails is that the lens comes from Taylor, who is at a point in her life where perhaps she's not fighting anymore. I've thought, you know, like, she's not fighting to be recognized. Fighting for, you know, I don't know, notoriety or money or even just to get her voice heard and to be, you know, honest and authentic. I think that part of her songs, like the rawness, is kind of lost. But I think that opens the door to a lot of other good things that are in this album. Like, I don't know, I like that it's kind of more jolly. I like the jolliness. And I think overall this album gets like, for me, it's like three out of five stars. You know, three bass clefs out of five.

[Jo Rome]

I think that's better than maybe you would have graded it initially.

[Antonia]

Yeah, I think so. Well, I think, I think 3.5 bass clefs. You know, three bass clefs, four treble clefs, let's say bass cliff. Just being kind of its impact, its bass line, and then treblecliff being perhaps the melodies, the sounds, the lyrics.

[Jo Rome]

Well, I think, look, there's many ways to grade Things. Right. And over the course of this, I'm sure we'll talk about sort of what we emphasize. But partly the. The mega question is how much you grade Taylor on a curve against herself.

[Antonia]

Yeah, I'm grading her on a curve against herself.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Antonia]

I think that's the only fair thing to do, because that's the only artistically honest thing to do. You know, like, I'm not going to.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Compare her to, like, young gravy.

[Antonia]

Like, even somebody who's, like, I don't know, more of a. A budding singer, songwriter or like, Dove.

[Jo Rome]

Cameron or like, something like generally comparing her to the.

[Antonia]

Comparing her to the rest of the world. I would say this is, like, four out of. I mean, this is a good album. You know, you see albums where there's, like. It's, like a shitty album.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

It's, like, bad.

[Antonia]

This isn't that. This is a good, fine album. But it's like, it feels disappointing because people expect a lot from Taylor Swift, and that is hard. But I think it's good that Taylor's at a point in her life where she clearly does not feel as much pressure and she's doing it out of an enjoyment. But I will say that I think pressure and fear are great motivators for art.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

I don't know.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah, well, yeah.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

And I think not to be crazy.

[Jo Rome]

You know, my perspective is. And I don't know that I would disagree as much with that. This is the first album that I've probably listened to that when I got it, I listened to every song in a row for a very long time. Normally, I just listened to the best songs or the greatest hits. Right. You know, even. You have to go back a long time for me to actually listen through a whole album and subject myself to every song. And then we dug into every song, and I think it was very revealing. I thought the quality of the lyrics, which is the big thing for me, was better than I thought. Once we dug into them and saw, oh, each one of these songs has got a lot more going on in it. Even if they didn't all succeed, they were all trying something. And as with all of Taylor's good songs, there's a surface meaning and then there's a meaning underneath. And really, that's sort of what our podcast is about, is diving into that. I would also say that I also think this was oversold a little by her fiance.

[Antonia]

Sure, sure. I agree.

[Jo Rome]

This is not the 12 bangers. I appreciate how much she loves her and, you know, all that stuff, but this is not a 12 banger album. You know, she has better albums. I don't think either of us would disagree. And certainly more groundbreaking.

[Antonia]

Sure.

[Jo Rome]

For her, you know, Game Changer.

[Antonia]

I mean, Folklore was like a game changing album. I think, like, Folklore was groundbreaking, and.

[Jo Rome]

That was in her transition albums to rock. But. But I do think that songs are. She's still maintaining a high level of quality of the songs.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Jo Rome]

From a lyrical point of view. All right, so let's start with what we thought was the best song in the album. Well, why don't you. Why don't we start with you, my.

[Antonia]

Favorite song from the album. Well, we had a little discussion beforehand, but I think I'm gonna stick with saying the Life of a Showgirl, although the Fate of Ophelia is my second choice. And that's because I think that honestly, I chose based off of what I would listen to. Like, which would I actually listen to? That's how I did it. And I think there are a lot of ways that you can assess it, like, I don't know, lyrically, musically, the impactness, like, how culturally in touch it is, and, you know, not to hold myself in such a high regard. But I guess I do think that the ranking of how would I actually listen to this song takes into account all of those things. Because I listen to songs that I think are worth it for the lyrics and. And sound good. But mostly, you know, I think there is a je ne sais quoi that gets people to listen to songs, even if it's. If it sounds good is part of it. And I think the life of a showgirl at the end of the day, I mean, I love Sabrina Carpenter, but I also like that it's written. I mean, it's like the life of a showgirl, I guess. Like, it's. It promises what it is in the title and then it delivers, and it's like a good song. Like, this song could BE Conceivably in 1989, I think, or, you know, in, like any other of her more poppy albums. Could be in Lover. You know, it's a good song. And I really. I like. I would like. I listened to this song just going through the day and.

[Jo Rome]

Interesting.

[Antonia]

I like this song.

[Jo Rome]

That. And I do want to talk about.

[Antonia]

I think the ending is really nice. I'm a sucker for a good ending. Like, if a book or a TV show or anything has a good ending, like a very good ending. Like, I think that that puts it above some TV shows that are good throughout but have a shitty ending, you.

[Jo Rome]

Know, look, and, and I do want to dive into the song a bit more. You know, for me, I picked Fate of Ophelia. Now, as you know, I, I do have a certain bias here.

[Antonia]

Yes. He's a big Hamlet fan. That's my second choice. I like the fate. The fate of Ophelia is, you know, not to move on too quickly, but I, I think that it does. I think that lyrically it's my favorite. Like, objectively, it's very, very good. And it's like the fact that people hate Taylor Swift so much and that it's still trending on like Tick Tock and social media and all the remixes.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Like Afro Beats, the Fate of Ophelia or like rap. The Fatal Ophelia.

[Antonia]

Rap, Rap. Father Figure is good, but it's like, it's like all of these songs, like, they're good lyrics and the fact that the fata Ophelia connects with people, like, it's good and it's catchy and it's like a. It's like this is a banger. I think the fata Ophelia.

[Jo Rome]

I wouldn't call it a banger. I would call. Besides the fact that this is rewriting.

[Antonia]

Shakespeare and she sucker for a long form metaphor.

[Jo Rome]

Right. And this is the second time she rewrote one of Shakespeare's great tragedies. She rewrote in Love Story.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Romeo and Juliet.

[Jo Rome]

Romeo and Juliet. I would say that. And I am, I am. I was influenced.

[Antonia]

I am. Big pantameter. Oh my gosh.

[Jo Rome]

Mentioned. I was influenced by the fact that this song is her longest duration number one song. And in fact it came back last week as number one. And I just checked it today because we're taping this a little late. But don't sue, don't sue because we're taping this on a Tuesday. Get to see the Billboard 100 and it's still number one again. So this is a blowout in terms of lasting as number one. And I did. That did influence me. And the other thing I was influenced by was the music video.

[Antonia]

Yeah, the fact that she chose this song as a music video and that it was very good.

[Jo Rome]

And then.

[Antonia]

Yeah, that's the reason I like the Life of a Showgirl too is because I think if you the Life of a Showgirl, it kind of includes like it's like the whole album. Like it's great. It's like, you know, I would say.

[Jo Rome]

This, this, this song foreshadows.

[Antonia]

That's true.

[Jo Rome]

Everything and the life of a showgirl kind of ties it up.

[Antonia]

Yeah, it ties it up.

[Jo Rome]

That's what I mean by that. And clearly, in the music video, we see her march through different eras of showgirls. I mean, but significantly, she starts with Ophelia. And really, Ophelia is a showgirl. That's in fact, because she's beholden to.

[Antonia]

All of these outside influences, Right. And she's expected to uphold certain standards, but she's a lady of the castle.

[Jo Rome]

Her father also told her. Told her to stop seeing Hamlet and to pretend that you didn't care about him. And then later, in the crucial scene, Act 3, Scene 1, after to be or not to be speech, she has to pretend to be angry at him and return the gifts so that her father and the king can watch them. So there's a completeness here in what Taylor's doing. I liked and I did want to talk while we were discussing these, and I want to come back to life with Showgirl is our favorite lyrics and sort of how the song conveys meaning. Because clearly she is setting things up in this song, as we come to learn when she says, and if you'd never come for me, I might have drowned in melancholy. Right. So this is setting up. Don't ruin the friendship.

[Antonia]

Right.

[Jo Rome]

This is, as we discussed there. She says, you know, you dug me out of my grave and saved my heart from the fate of Ophelia. The other key line, the eldest daughter of a nobleman, Ophelia, lived in fantasy.

[Antonia]

Yes, yes. Eldest daughter. Yes, yes, yes.

[Jo Rome]

Right. So eldest daughter. But also a lot of this album is her fantasy.

[Progressive Insurance Advertiser]

Right.

[Jo Rome]

And in particular, Wish List is, as we discussed. You know, it's a fantasy that is. Seems to be misunderstood by a lot of people. So I just, you know, I really like that. I'll give one other favorite lyric, which is the keep it 100. On the land, the sea, the air. Because again, this is her reference to the number 13.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Jo Rome]

Because Travis is number 87. And 87. And her favorite number is 13 on her birthday. And so 87 plus 13 is 100. And this gets back, of course, to the Trisca Decafilia.

[Antonia]

My gosh. Yes. Triska Decafilia.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

He's like a conspiracy theorist. He has this on, like, a board in his room. He's like, triskadeko. Ophelia. The life, the fate of Ophelia. Triska Dec. Ophelia.

[Antonia]

And then he, like, connects the dot. He, like, stares at it for like.

[Jo Rome]

She introduced the word Triskadek. Ophelia on the podcast. Podcast, where she introduced the album. Right. And if you're going to tell me that she accidentally talked about Triska Decafilia? You were the one who pointed out the graduation speech where she foreshadowed all the lyrics. That's true in her songs, right? That was NYU or something. So, yes. It doesn't drop these sorts of things. So, yes. Ophelia and Trisca Decafilia. So, yeah, I like what she's doing here. I'd be interested in, you know, is there some lyric here or something about this song?

[Antonia]

Well, in the life of a showgirl, I have a lyric that I heard.

[Jo Rome]

Let's talk a little about life.

[Antonia]

Yeah, well, I like the bridge. The whole bridge is quite good. You know, I took her pearls of wisdom Hung them from my neck Paid my dues with false lashes I know what to expect, you know, I like the line and all the headshots on the walls and the dance halls are of the bitches who wish I'd hurry up and die But I'm immortal now Babydolls I couldn't even if I tr. Um, yeah, I like that. And I also like the line that Sabrina Carpenter says, which I give it all to have a life that's all mine. Or something like that. Right. I'd sell my soul to have a taste of a magnificent life that's all mine. And I think that, you know, that's the idea behind A life of a. I mean, I think that this really does capture what it's like, you know, from growing up feeling like, you know, the glamour and stuff. I. I wish this is a very specific lens of viewing what a showgirl is. You know, you want glamour, you get, you know, reality. I would be interested in a song about the psychology behind why you'd want to be seen and heard like that. Why do you want the glamour? Why do you want. You know, it seems like this song takes that as a given, but, you know, it's a good song. That's what I like about it. This show is sponsored by Liquid IV. Liquid IV has been with me for years. When I was 14, I diagnosed with POTS.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Basically, I stand up and I see a lot of black dots. I have to sit down because I'm dizzy.

[Antonia]

And POTS is quite common, yet quite under diagnosed in young women. There's no cure. There is no pill that you take to make it go away. But there is a way to treat it. Hydration. And my doctor verbatim told me, take salt pills and drink water with Liquid iv. And after that, whenever I saw one of my friends dehydrated, I would Just give them one of the little packets I had carried around because one stick and 16 ounces of water hydrates better than water alone. And I always gave them kiwi strawberry because it's the best flavor, of course. And they would come back to me raving and so. Okay, Antonia, but what's in it? Well, fair listener simply electrolytes, essential vitamins and clinically tested nutrients that turn ordinary water into hydration. Brag alert. But it has three times the electrolytes of the leading sports drink. And guys, they have a new product out. Liquid IV's energy multiplier. Sugar Free Hydrating Energy. Its natural caffeine and electrolytes promote hydrating energy focus, mood and social stamina. Since it's sugar free, there are no energy drink jitters or crashes. You can take the packets with you anywhere, especially during the dry winter and. Or during a rough night. Show up with better hydration and energy from Liquid IV. Zero sugar and zero crash. Tear poor, live more. Go to Liquid IV.com and get 20% off your first order with code decoding at checkout. That's 20% off your first order with Code [e-mail].

[Jo Rome]

Yeah, and of course, we. We know from Taylor's life that at a very early age she really did want to be a showgirl. I mean, her goal was to be famous and she aggressively. I want to move to Nashville. Right. Sort of thing, you know. And so, yeah, I mean, I. And of course her grandmother. Right. That gets back to the other key point about I'm immortal now. Right. Is the immortality she gave her grandmother with the song Marjorie and the immortality that this showgirl gets. And yeah, I liked the Life of. And maybe I should have ranked it higher. I ended up ranking it pretty low, I have to admit. Not just. Cause I liked so many of the songs here.

[Antonia]

Well, let's talk about some of the other songs.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Antonia]

So my third. The one that I liked the third best is.

[Jo Rome]

No, no, no, no, no. So you're saying what your second best was?

[Antonia]

My second best was the Fate of Ophelia.

[Jo Rome]

Right, so we talked about that. Yeah, but I gotta talk about my second best.

[Antonia]

Well, what's your second best?

[Jo Rome]

My second best was Father Figure.

[Antonia]

Oh, that's beautiful. Is that for any particular reason, Joseph?

[Jo Rome]

Well, it's her. She said it was her favorite lyrics.

[Antonia]

On the other hand, other than. Other than being my dad, you know.

[Jo Rome]

As you remember, when we.

[Antonia]

He's a little biased.

[Jo Rome]

And by the way, I hope people, you know, a lot of people as we Learned from Spotify wrapped, you know, where we're in the, you know, top 3% of podcasts where people listen to more than one. That is true song is people go back and listen to our discussions.

[Antonia]

Father figure is. It made me like the song a lot more to talk about it. Like, a lot more. Like that's like one of the only times where that's ever happened. Like, it's crazy. Like, it's. Yeah, yeah.

[Jo Rome]

I mean, what I liked, well, was first of all, you know, the lyricism. I liked the. The two stories that intersect. And by the way, this is actually. I was thinking, actually now that's sort of the. The Star is born story where. Where, you know, the. The el. The older guy discovers the younger woman and then his career starts to go down when hers goes up. That's not exactly what happens here, but I liked the. The fact that this parallels a little bit with getaway car, right?

[Antonia]

Yeah, it does.

[Jo Rome]

When I found you, you were young, wayward, lost in the cold, pulled up to you in the Jag.

[Antonia]

Right?

[Jo Rome]

So a guy pulls up to her and.

[Antonia]

Right. Yeah.

[Jo Rome]

She ends up turning the tables on him. Right. That's what happens in both those songs. And both those songs have a key change at this point.

[Antonia]

Oh, my God. Where it says key.

[Jo Rome]

Where the keys physically changed. You know, where she takes his keys in getaway car. Right.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

I love when they do that.

[Antonia]

I love.

[Jo Rome]

Right. And here she changes the keys of the kingdom. Right? That's. That's the turning of the tables. So I liked all that. And I. I suppose that, you know, the other key point that we got to is answering the question for me, why does she have so many songs where fathers and father figures are or portrayed poorly? Right. Leaving like a father. Right?

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Jo Rome]

You know, fuck the patriarchy. Right. All of those songs, why so many. And even Life of Showgirl, right. She heard around like. Like all men do, Right. Why does she always dissing fathers? Because she gets along with her father. But it's. It's the fact, I think, again, that Scott Borchetta said that he considered her sort of like a daughter, and he then decided, I'm gonna screw you over, apparently. Hopefully not like you should treat your daughter, to say the least. And obviously that was a seminal moment in her life when he not only wouldn't make a deal with her to sell her, but I'm gonna keep them and I'm gonna sell them to the person you. You dislike the most in the world.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Who actually makes you crazy. It's truly cry. It's Truly crazy.

[Antonia]

No, seriously.

[Jo Rome]

So, you know, I think that is why she's always kind of.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

I would be like, low can you so upset if that happened to me.

[Jo Rome]

Well, I'm your father, so I can assure you I can be fairly confident in assuring you that no, nothing like that is ever going to happen.

[Antonia]

Thanks, Jerome. Thanks, Jerome.

[Jo Rome]

To you. And I, you know, in terms of lyrics, I do like, I can make deals with the devil because my dick's bigger.

[Antonia]

Thanks, dad.

[Jo Rome]

And you know, the foreshadowing of, okay, you made a deal with the devil. Never really a good idea. Never really gonna work out for people to make a deal with the devil. You don't see a lot of movies, books, TV shows where making a deal with the devil works out. I liked you remind me of a younger me. I saw potential, which is how she opens the song. But then it's the final line also because she's turning the tables on him.

[Antonia]

Well, it's true.

[Jo Rome]

So, you know, I'm probably always gonna wait lyrics more than perhaps you might, just because I'm just like a.

[Antonia]

You know, I mean, I wait lyrics very, like, a lot. But I do also pay attention to the tune. You know, it's a catchy tune.

[Jo Rome]

I understand.

[Antonia]

And I like music theory.

[Jo Rome]

And, yeah, a lot of people know a lot more about that than I do.

[Antonia]

And that's why. That's why Opalite was kind of like the third for me.

[Jo Rome]

Oh, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. It's also the third for.

[Antonia]

Really?

[Jo Rome]

Yeah.

[Antonia]

That's beautiful.

[Jo Rome]

So we both picked Opalite for number three. Happens to be the third song on the album. What were you saying?

[Antonia]

Isn't that funny? Oh, I just said great minds.

[Jo Rome]

So tell me, why is it your number three song?

[Antonia]

It's my number three. Because the lyrics are cool. The tune is cool, and I think it does what it like. It's like, catchy. It's nice. It's not. It's lyrically strong. Very, very strong. You know, I thought my house was haunted. I used to live with ghosts. And all the perfect couples said when, you know, you know, when you don't, you don't. And, you know, I like the brother used to call it eating out of the trash. That's fun. Like silly and. Yeah. Period. And I think Opalite is a great. It's a reference to her own life, you know, like onyx. I. You know, I just love the gem. I think that when you get the image in your head of a gemstone, you know, it's like Cute. And it's fun to listen to. And I think it's a banger in a way that a lot of other songs aren't.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah. And I agree. It is a song I would listen to, I do listen to. And I still. I was also influenced by the fact it's still on. I see all your faces there.

[Antonia]

Sorry, I just.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

I have so much fun making silly faces now that we're on video. It's not like I'm making silly faces. I don't know where, you know, I just naturally a very reactive person, I'm told, well, I'd just be doing this in real life.

[Jo Rome]

Now that the Christmas songs are gone, it's back in the top 10.

[Antonia]

What I'm saying on the Billboard.

[Jo Rome]

It's the only other song that's on the top 10 of the Billboard Hot 100 of her songs. Most of her other songs are. Are much further down. Although to her credit.

[Antonia]

Further down. Sorry, that was. That was Hamilton.

[Jo Rome]

That sounded like Hamilton. So. Yeah, I mean, clearly. And by the way, if it's not.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Clear, I apologize to everybody who's listening to this podcast. I'm on a lot of caffeine right now because at my school, we have a lot of work that we do and we're very caffeinated. So if I, if I'm moving very quickly, if my thoughts seem like they're going at it, that's just because I'm very drugged up.

[Antonia]

So.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Continue.

[Jo Rome]

Well, caffeine is not. I don't consider caffeine.

[Antonia]

Well, I mean, scientifically, it is a drug.

[Jo Rome]

You're stimulated. You, you, you. You're on a stimulant.

[Antonia]

I am on a stimulant.

[Jo Rome]

But yeah, I would say. And remember, Fate of Ophelia was the music video and she pushed it really hard. So Opalite has sustained at this level simply because people like to listen to the song clearly. Right. That's. That's the point of this song. It is a bop, it's a banger, whatever you want to call it. Oh, here's another thing, since I did want, while we're doing this, to cover the biggest things about her song, I went through the whole album. So as we said, a good songwriter is going to use a lot of buts because buts introduce the tension. And they're going to use fewer ands, because ands are just the exposition.

[Antonia]

The boys ancillary ands, as he says.

[Jo Rome]

So you want a high rate ratio of butts to ands. That's. That is the. If there's one Thing you learn from this podcast when you're writing is to have a ratio of butts to ands that is over 20% is over. And so I did the math, actually. I looked at the number of butts on the album. There's 48 butts on the album and 127ands. So that ratio is 38%, which is.

[Antonia]

Consistent with a lot of the better.

[Jo Rome]

Right. This, this is high for her album. I mean, she is, you know, that's. That's.

[Antonia]

Did you do comparison to the other albums?

[Jo Rome]

I haven't looked at all the other ones. I. I know that the overall number is more like 30, but look, she's become a better lyrics writer, I think.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Jo Rome]

But interestingly, the Blow Away song.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Jo Rome]

For buts to ands is opalite. Opalite has nine butts, but only 11 ands.

[Antonia]

This is an 80 if I'm doing my math correct. Yeah, that's about 80.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah. She's like, you know, but my mama told me, but now the sky is Opalite. And remember, one of the reasons it does this is because she's intersecting two stories here.

[Antonia]

Right, Right.

[Jo Rome]

These are two hero's journey stories. These are both. Taylor and Travis had long term relationships.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Jo Rome]

Before this. That didn't work out. And that's why, you know, I really like the line, failure brings you freedom.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Jo Rome]

Because that. That really encapsulates the hero's journey story. Right. And that's. Everyone has to tell, as we've said in season one. And the. When you're telling your own personal narrative, people have an expectation that you hit a low point. And that low point is what leads to your ultimately finding.

[Antonia]

Leaping up. Yes.

[Moms and Mysteries Hosts]

Yeah.

[Jo Rome]

You know, finding what your superpower is. Finding what your purpose in life is. Right. So that's encapsulated in this line. But failure brings you freedom. And. And of course, this also comes back to the other, another storytelling secret, which is the use of alliteration. Right. Father figure. Failure brings you freedom. Right. The Fs. Fate of Ophelia. I hate to say it. Life of a showgirl. Yes.

[Antonia]

Okay. Oh, my gosh.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

This is also on his little conspiracy board that he has in his freaking room. He's like, fate of Ophelia. Life of a showgirl.

[Jo Rome]

Yes.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Friska Decafilia. Ophelia. And then he's like, it all connects. And then sits there for like three hours staring at it.

[Jo Rome]

It's like a murder board. Yes.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

In like the dark. He does this. He sits. It's like 5am and he's thinking about.

[Jo Rome]

This, so I'm glad. Opalite is both of ours. Number three.

[Antonia]

Yeah, man. And my number four is Elizabeth Taylor.

[Jo Rome]

Interesting. So tell me about.

[Antonia]

I loved talking to Ben Bengowicz.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Ben Mankiewicz.

[Antonia]

That was so interesting. I loved it. And I love learning about the history behind it. And I think that I love songs with ripe with history. Like this, the Great War, like, ooh, give me more. And like, also, like, the last great American Dynasty. Like, that was. I love those songs. Like, I love them. They're so fun.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

And like, omg. Like, there's so much to learn, so much to unpack. Like, I love a song filled with illusions.

[Antonia]

Like, if you guys get the chance to listen to a song that you will find funny and cute and awesome.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

You should listen to Moo by Doja Cat, because that's the other.

[Antonia]

That's like the same type of song where she just fills the. She packs it. She's like, you be words are my calves.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Like, she just like, keeps, like, referencing cows. And she gets really specific with it to the point where I'm like, how much research on cows did she do for this song? And I love songs like that. Like, I just love them.

[Antonia]

They're so fun.

[Jo Rome]

Well, and we know Taylor Swift likes Elizabeth Taylor, probably in part because they're both Taylor. Right. I'm sure you know that that's part of the reason. Part of it is that Elizabeth Taylor was a. She called her. You know, Taylor Swift called her a showgirl. You know, she played Cleopatra. Right. In the movie. Which. And Cleopatra, you could argue, also a showgirl. One of the greatest.

[Moms and Mysteries Hosts]

True.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah. And. And, and featured, you know, and made famous or made more famous by. By Shakespeare's play Anthony and Cleopatra.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Yeah.

[Jo Rome]

And so, But. But famous for dressing opulently. And of course, in the music video for Fate of Ophelia, Taylor dresses up in that outfit and assumes the same pose that Elizabeth Taylor did in the movie Cleopatra. And so, yes, look, I. I like the song. I ranked it 9th only. Yes. Because it's not a song I would listen to.

[Antonia]

Okay.

[Jo Rome]

That was.

[Antonia]

I think it's catchy. I think it's catchy.

[Jo Rome]

I think. Yeah. And. And, and, and also sequence are forever and.

[Antonia]

Or. But it's also like. It's also like. It's also like. Do you think it's forever? What is it? The number one. But I'll never have two and I can't have fun if I can't have you. It's just like, so silly. Like, it's like, ooh, mystique. Like, oh, my gosh. Yeah, but just. Can I just read, like, a little.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Bit from Moo just to tell you.

[Antonia]

Like, songs that have research in it are good songs.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Like, let me just read you these three lyrics. It involves cursing, so cover your children's ears. So got steak, hoe, got cheese, grade A hoe, not lean because she's thick. Got me A one sauce, please. Like A one.

[Antonia]

Like, yeah.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Anyway, these heifers got nothing on me. Steaks high. Need a side of collard greens. Like steak like cow steak like steak, but also steaks high. Like, log in. It's so fun. Then she says below, she's like, got the methane. I'm a farter. Like, I love that. I love that so much. But I love this song so much, you guys. It's so fun. Anyway, well, and.

[Jo Rome]

And. And this is some nice foreshadow, because in season three, we did talk about discussing other songs than Taylor, as long as they're somehow connected to Taylor.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Can we talk about Moo by Tosha Cat? Well, maybe I'm a cow. I'm a cow. I'm not a cat. I don't say meow.

[Jo Rome]

Well, I think it's just. What we're gonna do in season three, as we discussed, is we're gonna go through the set list on the ERAS tour.

[Antonia]

Yes.

[Jo Rome]

And that will probably take a year.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

But that's a long time, you guys.

[Jo Rome]

But we really wanted to, because we know people are interested in the ERAS tour.

[Antonia]

Yes, we do. And I think we should honestly do like a rolling stone by Bob Dylan. I think that'd be a great song to do.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah. And. And so there is.

[Antonia]

So fun. Anyway.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah. No, no. I think, as we discussed in episode one, the very first episode of this podcast in I knew you were trouble.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Jo Rome]

Which begins once upon a time.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Yeah.

[Jo Rome]

About a girl. About a.

[Antonia]

Well, she says once upon a time a lot. Like, once upon a time, the planets in the face.

[Jo Rome]

Right. But.

[Antonia]

And then she. Yeah, right. Once upon a time.

[Jo Rome]

In Once upon a Time, in Mastermind, she's referencing back to I knew you were trouble because the songs are paralleled. Right. As we discussed. As we discussed in I knew you were trouble, she's referencing Bob Dylan because both of the songs are about women who crash and burn.

[Antonia]

Who crash and burn and. Hold on. Well, okay, so what's your fourth favorite? Just getting back on track.

[Jo Rome]

My fourth favorite is Honey.

[Antonia]

That's my fifth favorite.

[Jo Rome]

Interesting. I.

[Antonia]

I like Honey. Talking about Honey also made me like it more. It's catchy. And it's cute. I hated it when I first listened to it because I was like, oh, this is like, what is this like? It's not like the lyrics, they just didn't connect with me. And then I listened to it more and I'm like, I like the jazzy kind of vibe, and I like that it's like, softer, nicer. My favorite of the softer songs that she's released is Sweet Nothings. Like, you should all go listen to that song. It's on. It's on the 3:00am version, I think, of Midnight. And it's really cute, and I like it a lot. And I think that Honey also is a good. It's just like a good song to talk about double meanings. You know, she includes a lot of literary, you know, themes and figures.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah, yeah, look, I think again, one of the main points of the podcast of decoding Taylor Swift is that you don't just take all of her words at face value and assume that everything is literal. Right. And in this song, this song is the one that spells that out most clearly. She's just telling you, guess what. Words have more than one meaning, depending on the situation, depending on who says them. Says them. And guess what? That's what this album is all about. And that's what many of her best songs. All of her best songs are about. This. And, you know, I like All Too well. Well, All Too well. But even, you know, as we discuss, you know.

[Antonia]

Well, one of the key lines in All Too well, Fuck the patriarchy. Kitchen on the ground. You know, it says a lot.

[Jo Rome]

We have discussed that. Even a song like what seems like a simple banger, which is Shake It Off.

[Antonia]

Right.

[Jo Rome]

Fundamentally, she doesn't shake things off.

[Antonia]

No, completely. A very ironic way. Same with blank space. But that's more obviously, you know.

[Jo Rome]

Right. So she is heavily using irony throughout. And. Yeah. And I liked the opening line. You can call me honey if you want because I'm the one you want.

[Antonia]

I know. It's interesting that she starts off with the chorus in that one. I appreciate trying new things. So she gets points for that.

[Jo Rome]

The double reference to the song Call it what yout Want, and to the song, I'm the one that you want, you're the one that I want from Greece, which she did play in school. But also, you're the one that I want. Do, do do boo boo boo honey. The one that I want. Right.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Jo Rome]

So. But the point is, there's a lot going on in her songs that. That is one of our main Points. And, you know, you can criticize her. If you don't like her songs because you don't like them or you don't like her, that's totally fine. But. But don't go around.

[Antonia]

It makes sense. I mean, it makes sense to me why people don't like some of her themes and songs. Like, I think a lot of my friends don't like her. They tend to like music that's more like the most popular bands being like, Big Thief or maybe Fiona Apple. And they're about kind of these more. They're more singular in what they focus on. I mean, you know, most of the people who don't like Taylor Swift, at the end of the day, whether or not you think it's a bad thing, they do it because they feel a disconnection with the mainstream, quote, unquote, and they believe that she's very mainstream. And perhaps they like other quote unquote, mainstream artists. But. But at the end of the day, Taylor Swift is the most mainstream that there is.

[Jo Rome]

So she just so happens to be also a brilliant lyricist who's doing.

[Antonia]

And there's a reason why she is the most mainstream, as opposed to other bands that. Whose lyrics are not up to snuff, perhaps, but they are mainstream, you know. But I would say that, you know, a lot of other mainstream artists, like Ed Sheeran, who's a very good lyricist, like y'.

[Progressive Insurance Advertiser]

All.

[Antonia]

Keep up with Ed.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Keep up with Ed.

[Antonia]

Let me tell y' all something about.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

The A Team by Ed Sheeran.

[Antonia]

I don't know what he's up to these days, but some of those old albums, like, I will listen to them.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

I'll be like, damn, that's crazy. Like, Ed, what are we doing here?

[Antonia]

Anyway, just to be clear, so what.

[Jo Rome]

What was your.

[Antonia]

So fifth was wood or honey? My fifth was honey. So, 1, 2, 3, 4. Yeah, my fifth was honey.

[Jo Rome]

But what was your fourth?

[Antonia]

My fourth was Elizabeth Taylor. Okay, we talked about that. And my sixth was Wood. I think. I think it's fun.

[Jo Rome]

My sixth. Your six is Wood. Losing track. Your six was Wood?

[Antonia]

Yes.

[Jo Rome]

Okay. Wood's a bit further down for me. Tell me about Wood. What do you like about Wood?

[Antonia]

Well, I think that it's obviously so fun, and I like fun songs. And as I told you guys, I.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Like Move by Doja Cat, which is like, by definition, a fun, silly song.

[Antonia]

And I think Wood has the same kind of energy. It reminds me of, like. Like, I feel like, I don't know, Taylor Swift doesn't really do much of the sexual Stuff.

[Jo Rome]

True.

[Antonia]

And I think overtly. Like, her foray into more overt sexual.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Stuff is kind of beautiful. Like, good for her that she's getting pipe at night. Like, we love that for her, and.

[Antonia]

We appreciate that for her.

[Jo Rome]

I love how one week you're very naive and innocent.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

And I'm on caffeine, bro. And pipe, by the way, I hope you all know does mean, like, plumbing.

[Antonia]

Like, obviously pipes break and you need to get them replaced. And so when you get pipes, you're just putting a new pipe.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Like, it's great that she's taking care of the house.

[Jo Rome]

You're not getting. Digging yourself out of this particular hole. Okay. And one of the things about Wood is, you know, in the intro when she's describing Wood, she says, oh, this is about superstitions. And so this is. This is one of the. Taylor as an unreliable narrator. And one of the themes of this album is that Taylor is not exactly the most reliable narrator, and I think that's important. And she cosplays, and she's singing songs that sound like they're sort of about her, but they're not exactly about her. And that's another reason why I think some people don't like her is because of that. It happens to be a reason that I like her and she. Oh, the reason. One of the other reasons. I ranked it a little lower.

[Antonia]

Where did you rank it? 7, 8.

[Jo Rome]

I ranked it 7. Yes.

[Antonia]

Okay, wait. So I ranked it 6. I ranked it 6th, and you ranked it 7. You could say like, 6, 7, 6, 7.

[Jo Rome]

No.

[Antonia]

Like, you could say no.

[Jo Rome]

No, because we skipped over my five and I. We skipped over me.

[Antonia]

Well, yeah. What was your five and six?

[Jo Rome]

My. My five and six. So my five was. Ruin the. Ruin the friendship, Right? Yeah. Ruin the friendship.

[Antonia]

Which we talked about a little bit. Sure. And for the sake of time, I think that it is worth going and watching our episode on it. Not to plug the pod while we're on the pod, but I think really. I think people don't really get why it's on the album, but I think it does belong on the album after talking about it.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah. And I want to say yes. I think that this is a deeply felt song.

[Antonia]

And sorry for skipping you, but I feel like that's, like, now, you know, like, what it's like to be a woman. You know, it's.

[Jo Rome]

It's. It's. Thank you for the. The opportunity.

[Antonia]

Like, you're welcome. Yes. Like, that's what it is. Is honestly an opportunity that I've given you to, like, empathize with, like, a lot of our listeners.

[Jo Rome]

And me, I, I, I, I am very, very grateful. But, yeah, I, I, the thing about Taylor is she feels deeply, and I think that's true of a lot of great musicians. Right? I mean, obviously Charli XCX feels deeply.

[Antonia]

As we heard in Wood, she feels deeply.

[Jo Rome]

Yes. Thank you, my daughter, for being so hyped up that you're now.

[Antonia]

It's just because, like, there's just. They're all laid out in front of.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Me is so many good jokes.

[Jo Rome]

But, yeah, I mean, I love two things about it. The line goodbye and we'll never know why.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Right.

[Jo Rome]

This is the callback to Ophelia, Right. Who also dies ambiguously in the play. Is it suicide? Is it simply she's sort of out of it and unable to save herself? And the point, the deep, deep point here, you know, my advice is always ruin the friendship. Better that than regret it for all time. And my advice is always answer the question. Better that than to ask it all your life. So she has been asking the question all her life.

[Antonia]

If she had dated him, could that have saved him?

[Jo Rome]

Could that have saved him from the fate of Ophelia, from Melancholia or whatever death? She died. And so, yeah, it's a universal song. It's a song about regret. And I like when she writes a song about a particular emotion and tries to capture it in lyrics.

[Antonia]

Right, that's cool. And what was your sixth?

[Jo Rome]

Now we're hearing you better again.

[Antonia]

Thank you. Well, what was your sixth?

[Jo Rome]

That was a volume change on your end.

[Antonia]

That was a volume change I heard on your end, too.

[Jo Rome]

Oh, all right. Was Wish List Interesting.

[Antonia]

That was my ninth.

[Jo Rome]

You know, I liked what are there.

[Antonia]

How are there 12 songs on this?

[Jo Rome]

There are 12 songs on this.

[Antonia]

So then it would have been my eighth. Yeah, yeah. No, I, like, Ruin the Friendship was my. No, yeah, that's my ninth. And then Ruin the Friendship was my tenth.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah. And. And I Wish List was my. Whatever this is. Which is number seven?

[Antonia]

Yeah, like six or seven.

[Jo Rome]

Six or seven.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

No, I guess he does that to me. Like, I accidentally, like, for real said six or seven while we were on this phone call.

[Antonia]

And he went, six, seven.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

I was literally sitting next to all.

[Antonia]

Of my friends, but I was next to one of my friends who's obsessed with 6, 7.

[Jo Rome]

And I liked Wishlist in part because it annoyed the haters, because they didn't understand it. And I just felt that, again, this was this whole nonsense of everything that Taylor writes is exactly what she believes. And in this case, she was actually describing her plan. Her plan was to have a couple of kids get the whole block looking like you, and we just tell the world to leave us fuck alone. And they do. They do.

[Antonia]

Right.

[Jo Rome]

And the point is. No, this is a fantasy, you know, and this is, again, goes back to the fate of Ophelia, you know, the eldest daughter of a nobleman. Ophelia lived in fantasy.

[Antonia]

Right.

[Jo Rome]

This is the fantasy. This is not her plan.

[Antonia]

Right. Well, I didn't. Yeah, it's a good song, and I didn't connect with it as well, which is why I ranked it lower.

[Jo Rome]

Okay. But I just want to say that, like, the fact that the line, have a couple kids got the whole block looking like you seems to mean one thing, but in fact, it seems to me like, oh, she's on a big block with a whole bunch of people.

[Antonia]

Right. But in fact, it's just her whole. She's the only.

[Jo Rome]

She's got the whole block because she's rich and there's nobody. It's a gated community.

[Antonia]

Right, Exactly. Yes, yes.

[Jo Rome]

So, yeah, again, it's just very, very clever. So, yeah, and then. And then I had Wood.

[Antonia]

Yeah, sure. And then I. Yeah, then I had Showgirl.

[Jo Rome]

Then I had Elizabeth Taylor. Elizabeth Taylor.

[Antonia]

How are you ranking these solo? I had after Wood, which is my sixth. I had actually Romantic.

[Jo Rome]

Right Now I'm at. Actually, now we're at actually Romantic, which was.

[Antonia]

Which was actually Romantic is my seventh, I think. It didn't do what it, like, low key needed to do. It was an counterproductive song to make.

[Jo Rome]

Make.

[Antonia]

Why would you do that? And also. But it was catchy, but, like, I like it, and it's catchy, and it's, like. It's, like, well written. Unfortunately. Unfortunately, the line, like, what is it? Oh, my gosh. I mind my business. God's my witness that I don't provoke it. Charlie xcx, in the song that she wrote about Swift, says, like, if God exists, then. Or like, if, like, this won't happen, this isn't happening because God doesn't exist, basically. And she's like, God's my witness. So it's kind of crazy if she meant it like that.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah. She said, why I want to shoot myself volatile at war with my dialogue. I'd say there was a God if they could stop this. Her pain. Yes, right.

[Antonia]

That's why I think that, honestly, like, it's just. She has so much more power than Charli xcx. She's, like, richer. She's Taylor Swift. And it's like punching down. It almost feels like.

[Jo Rome]

I'm surprised you ranked it so high. This is my number 10 song.

[Antonia]

Really? Okay. But the thing is, I liked it. Like, I did.

[Jo Rome]

I do, too. I was very torn whether to rank a song because as we discussed this, her song, Charlie's song would be a little better if it maybe weren't so quite pointed at Taylor.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Jo Rome]

And Taylor's song would probably be better if it weren't quite so pointed at Charlie. And they both kind of misunderstood each other and. And hit each other's sore points. And I think if people listen to that episode, they'll see that exactly why Charlie and Taylor ended up sort of feuding about this.

[Moms and Mysteries Hosts]

And.

[Jo Rome]

And as we said, we once again issue the invite to both Charlie and. My God, if they'd like to come.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Onto the podcasting style, like, let's do it. Like, yay.

[Jo Rome]

We'll go through the lyrics. Yes. I like that she made this humorous. That this was a humorous diss track. I did like that.

[Antonia]

Although I will say that Charlie's diss.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Track was, like, very vulnerable.

[Antonia]

And to make something that's, like, low Ken younly, like, humorous is like, damn. Like, that's kind of mean. But yeah. So after actually Romantic, my eighth is Father Figure. Ninth is Wish List. Tenth is Ruin the Friendship. My eleventh, and it seems we probably agree on this is canceled. And my 12th year's eldest daughter.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah, we agree on 11 and 12. So let's talk a little about that. And I agree with you that the middling songs are a bit kind of middling. I was probably too harsh on Life of a Showgirl. I think you're a little harsh on Father Figure putting it all the way down there.

[Antonia]

Yeah, perhaps I was. Perhaps I was.

[Jo Rome]

But these are hard to. It is hard to rank. It's harder than it looks.

[Antonia]

Well, until canceled, I think the reasons for cancelled and Eldest Daughter cancel did not make it clear at all that she was supporting, like, you know, well. And also it was like, good thing I like my friends cancelled.

[Moms and Mysteries Hosts]

Ah.

[Antonia]

Like, you're not like. I mean, like, yeah, there are better ways to write about cancel culture.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Like, guys, like, can we keep it real?

[Jo Rome]

Can we keep it above her reputation song? Same with Eldest Daughter album. As we discussed, the biggest problem with this song is its lack of clarity that she is, in fact, defending Blake Lively.

[Antonia]

Right.

[Jo Rome]

And some people got that. A lot of people got the exact opposite of that.

[Antonia]

Yeah, Right.

[Jo Rome]

That's the problem. Other people got the exact opposite of that.

[Antonia]

Yeah. Like that's seen in Stranger Things where Jonathan, like, fake proposes to Nancy. Like, it was supposed to be a breakup, but nobody understood that. And scenes like that, like, like songs like, you should always make it very clear that it's not the opposite of what you're trying to accomplish, I think.

[Jo Rome]

Because otherwise, if you didn't know anything about Taylor or Blake Lively and this song could be almost called a banger. But, yeah, no, I agree that for Taylor Swift, who is the queen of meaning in a story based form, and as we've shown in Time After Time, she knows how to send a message when she wants to.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Jo Rome]

And yes, she likes an undertone of a meeting too. But in this case, it was really important to know what this song was about. And so, you know, I would say that was a missed opportunity and an almost. But again, you know, some songs have to be on the bottom and. And yeah. So let's.

[Antonia]

And then some songs are just bad, which is like Eldest daughter.

[Jo Rome]

Let's talk about eldest daughter. Yeah, that was. What did you. What didn't we. We. You know, it's been a while since we talked about this song.

[Antonia]

Let's talk about eldest daughter.

[Jo Rome]

Let's talk about eldest daughter. Why it's both of our least favorite.

[Antonia]

If you want more of a. Yeah, if you want more of a tirade about eldest daughter, you can listen to our episode. But to extract. Expound a little bit on that, I think that, like, I'm not a bad bitch and this isn't savage, like pointing towards cancel culture. Like, it's hard, but I think that there are way better ways to talk about cancel culture. I think the worst part of cancel culture is not. Isn't that isn't what she's suggesting with this song, that it's just pointless meanness. It's just because you're scared. I think the worst part of cancel culture is that it's counterproductive. And, you know, it's counterproductive at its worst. At its best, it's just not productive. And, you know, a few cases it's productive. Like, very few. But then the blowback is so harsh because it's, you know, I think the problem with moral, like, being this kind of purism is, you know, like, I hate to say it, but the world that we live in now is not a world where you can just say, do the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing. Like, don't be racist for the sake of not being racist. Because people will not understand you. They will get mad because they don't understand what you're telling them. They're just thinking you're just being mad. You're just mad. You're like a woke liberal. You don't care about the actual. Like, you don't. You're not listening to what the conservatives are saying. And because, because, to be honest, like, Cancel Culture comes from the left usually. And it seems as though, you know, it comes from a place of. Of wanting, you know, your public figures to fit into this kind of perfect box that you can give them of. Of. Of, you know, being perfect morally. But the problem with that is that. That you're demonizing the people who are still the best representations of the general populace. Right. If you don't, if you make a mistake around your friends, like, you say something that you didn't mean to be classist but ends up being classist and your friends correct you. Right? Those are what good friends do. And the way we treat celebrities and famous people is not always like that. For politicians, it's better to hold them accountable. For celebrities, it's really hard because they are kind of detached. And I don't think that she spent a lot of time talking about that aspect of Cancel Culture. She just talked about it like, I don't know. And maybe that, that takes. Not my complete take on Cancel Culture, but she talked about it as, like, you know, oh, nobody cares how I feel like, oh, my God, this song.

[Jo Rome]

Morphs out of that.

[Antonia]

Yeah, it does. It talks about her and Travis. It tries to cover. Right. It tries to cover a lot. And it's, in doing so doesn't cover all of that. It covers, in fact, none of it in a meaningful way.

[Jo Rome]

So in that sense, yeah, I agree that this song is trying to do a bit too much with. And Cancel Culture is a complicated thing, right?

[Antonia]

Very, very complicated.

[Jo Rome]

There are some black and white cases. One of the problems with Cancel Culture is everyone can kind of identify some of the extreme cases, and we all agree with that. But then you get the down to these shades of gray, and then it really depends on the specific circumstances. And you can never know the specific circumstances. But yeah, so I. And I was moved by your view that even if she's intentionally trying to sound awkward here, which she clearly is, I think that.

[Antonia]

Right, right. Obviously, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Jo Rome]

She's intentionally trying to sound awkward here, but that's very hard to pull off. And in this particular case, this, you know, but I'm not a bad bitch, and this isn't savage, as you said at the time, as I recall. That that's a choice for some people to be a bad bitch and to be savage and it's not to be dissed. And what's more, the other thing that's weird about it is on this very album, she does Savage Charlie xcx. I mean, that's a savage. I mean, what do you want to call that song, Right? What do you want to call that song? Actually romantic. I mean, it's hilarious, but it's brutal. And then, you know, the other piece of this that was just weird was this point was she says, you know, when you found me, I said I was busy. That was a lie. When I said I don't believe in marriage, that was a lie. And then this whole thing about her pretending to be the first lamb to this, that she sort of got devastated as a child and therefore kind of pretended to be something she wasn't. So she's saying her whole life is a lie. But now she's saying to this guy, but from now on, from now on, I'm never gonna let you down and I'm never gonna leave you out. And as we just said, you can't make that promise. You cannot make a promise to your forever, even your forever person, and I would say particularly your forever person, that you're never gonna let them down. Right? It's just, it's so. Yeah, I think, I mean, and what's sad about it for this is this is one of her better bridges.

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[Moms and Mysteries Hosts]

Yep.

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[Antonia]

What?

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[Jo Rome]

Yeah, this is. This is. You know that it's a really. And it's a nice tune.

[Antonia]

It is a nice tune. It's such a great tune. Which is why I feel so sad that it was low key wasted.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah. And I think that if you're out there, Taylor, you know, as we've said, nobody should be judged by everyone's least favorite song on an album. Right. You know, the good songs are really good. They are gonna endure. How many of them? I don't know. As we said, Bob Dylan wrote 600.

[Antonia]

I think the fate of Ophelia is gonna endure.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah. And I think that Opalite is clearly a song people like to play.

[Antonia]

Yes.

[Jo Rome]

And sometimes you don't know. Right. I mean, remember a Cruel Summer. Right. Came.

[Antonia]

Right. We did not think.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah, seriously came back as number one when she announced the set list, so. And by the way, one thing we don't know, because there's a lot of rumor out there that she has done another music video for this album, which is Opalite, I think. Right. But she could drop if she wanted to. First of all, Life of a Showgirl itself would be a great out.

[Antonia]

Right. A great video. I know she could have Sabrina Carpenter. It could be cute.

[Jo Rome]

But, yeah, I think that.

[Antonia]

Especially because Sabrina Carpenter's music videos are so fun. Like, that would be a very fun collab. Like, Taste is such a great video. So it's like. Yeah.

[Jo Rome]

And so is mi espresso.

[Antonia]

Yeah, you mean espresso.

[Jo Rome]

I think that. That I'm a silly guy, you know? Look, this was the number one album last week. It just got beaten by what's His Face.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

What album?

[Jo Rome]

Oh, he. She just got beaten by Alex. No, what's. Yeah, I'm sorry, let's.

[Antonia]

What's.

[Jo Rome]

Let me go back. The. The 200. Morgan Wallen.

[Antonia]

Morgan Wallen. Oh, interesting, huh?

[Jo Rome]

Morgan Wallen has the number one album and the number eight album on the Billboard 200.

[Antonia]

What's interesting is Morgan Wallen, I think he's, you know, good music. I also know some Morgan Wallen.

[Jo Rome]

You know, Taylor is rocking the top 100 albums. He just got like seven or eight of them.

[Antonia]

Like six or seven.

[Jo Rome]

Like six or seven of them. Yeah. And as you say, popular. But I think the bottom line is the critics like this album. General, there was a lot of hate for this album, even by longtime fans. I think that was a hot take that maybe wasn't quite so deserved. If you don't like Taylor I get it. If you're going to say, like, Taylor Swift forgot how to write, I feel.

[Antonia]

A lot of fans, like, compare her to herself. So when they say that it's like a 5 out of 10 album, they're not. I mean, some of them perhaps do mean that compared to other music, it's 5 out of 10. But I think the most important thing is that, you know, compared to her, it's really just. It's sad. It is sad a little bit. You know, it is a step down. It feels like ultimately, in many ways, some of these songs are definitely up to snuff, but it's not every single.

[Jo Rome]

And again, this. This is the question that was raised at the very beginning, which is if she's not writing songs about bad guys and bad breakups, you know, is that. Is that harder to write a really winning song for her?

[Antonia]

And I think the answer is yes. I think we have figured it out maybe.

[Jo Rome]

And that's.

[Antonia]

It'll be interesting to see, at least for now. For now. Because it's always just another thing to learn, right?

[Jo Rome]

Yeah. And she has written songs about other people, you know, Cardigan. Right. I think this is the end of this.

[Antonia]

Leave your favorites in the comments, you.

[Jo Rome]

Know, yeah, this is.

[Antonia]

Leave your least favorites in the comments. Give your opinions on our takes. If you hate them, if you love them.

[Jo Rome]

Absolutely. And you know, this is the end of season two. We are very grateful to, seriously, to the fans who really made this a very successful season for us.

[Antonia]

Seriously. And we have a sponsor, you know.

[Jo Rome]

We have a sponsor and you may hear is Liquid iv and you're gonna hear some ads. We'll talk about that more when we launch season three. I think we'll probably talk a little bit more about the sponsor you may start hearing, but hopefully you will tell your friends, tell your friends, tell your.

[Antonia]

Friends, tell your kids, tell your parents, in fact, uncles, aunts, nephews, nieces, if.

[Jo Rome]

Your friends are like, I don't want to listen to a podcast about life of a Showgirl album. Guess what? For the year 2026, we're going to be talking about the set list from the ERAs tour. The ERAs Tour, yeah. So please, you know, I think that we'll be able to focus on much of the higher end of Taylor's songs, and we're also going to talk about some other songs. So thank you.

[Antonia]

Thank you. Seriously.

[Jo Rome]

And as at the end of life is Showgirl. Thank you, Antonia.

[Unspecified Younger Person (possibly a friend or sibling)]

Oh, I love you, father.

[Jo Rome]

And we'll see you next season, which.

[Antonia]

Is see you next season.

[Jo Rome]

Coming up soon.

[Antonia]

Ciao.

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[Moms and Mysteries Hosts]

For eight years, we've been asking the same question over and over again. How did this happen? My name's Mandy. And I'm Melissa. And we're the hosts of Moms and Mysteries, the true crime podcast. With over 55 million downloads, we're two Florida moms who are obsessed with mysteries. Each week we do deep dives into fascinating true crime stories. We cover everything from infamous cases like Casey Anthony to the bizarre and complex crimes right here in our home state, like the shocking murder of FSU professor Dan Markell. We bring you the facts, but with warmth and width you'd only get from two friends who have been hooked on mysteries since childhood. Join us for new episodes of Moms and Mysteries every Tuesday and Thursday. Listen to Moms and Mysteries on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast.