Revealed: Ruin the Friendship’s hidden connections to Folklore and The Fate of Ophelia

Summary

Decoding Taylor Swift — Episode Summary

Podcast: Decoding Taylor Swift
Episode: Revealed: Ruin the Friendship’s hidden connections to Folklore and The Fate of Ophelia
Date: November 25, 2025
Hosts: Joe Romm and Toni (Antonia) Romm
Special Guest: Amy Odell (Culture and Fashion Writer, Host of "Backrow")

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deeply into Taylor Swift's "Ruin the Friendship," revealing its intimate autobiographical inspiration and connecting its themes to Taylor's broader oeuvre, especially the Folklore album and the song "The Fate of Ophelia." Joe and Toni Romm analyze Swift's lyricism, storytelling techniques, and use of metaphor—demonstrating how she channels personal regret and loss into universal emotional experience. Later, cultural critic Amy Odell joins to explore why wildly successful women like Swift face more criticism than their male peers and discuss Taylor's image, media strategies, and role in pop culture.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Opening Banter & Setting the Stage

• Toni and Joe spark with their usual playful dynamic, joking about being “a treasure trove of material” (00:30) and poking fun at each other’s quirks.
• They frame the episode as a mystery: Why does "Ruin the Friendship," rooted in high school memory, feature on an album about the Eras tour and showgirl life?
  • "Why is this song about Taylor Swift’s high school days on an album about the Eras tour and the life of a showgirl? We will solve that mystery.” — Joe (00:34)

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2. Lyric Analysis & Storytelling Devices

Figurative Language, Metaphor, and Specificity

• Toni highlights the song's figurative language reminiscent of Red and Folklore:
  • "This song is kind of a reversion back to a lot of the more figurative style language you would see on earlier albums, like perhaps Red, even Folklore." — Toni (02:09)
  • Examples: “Glistening grass from September rain. Gray overpass full of neon names.”
• Notably, Swift references real places (“85 Gallatin Road, Lakeside Beach”)—reinforcing that this is a deeply personal and non-fictionalized song (02:28).

Driving as Metaphor

• Hosts explore "driving" as a symbol for the excitement and recklessness of young love:
  • "The metaphor of driving is a very interesting one... this friendship that she had was immediately something that was perhaps more romantic... moving very quickly, but she was a little bit scared." — Toni (04:19)

Regret and Love Triangles: Ties to “Folklore”

• Joe draws parallels with Folklore’s infamous love triangle (“Cardigan,” “Betty,” “August”):
  • “This is the love triangle story.” — Joe (06:15)
  • The song’s regret echoes the regrets voiced by “James” in “Betty” and the unfulfilled longing in “August.”
  • "In this version, she's bitterly regretting something. In the Folklore version, this was the worst mistake the boy made..." — Joe (07:11)
• Prom/dance scenes and metaphors recur (“shiny wood floors,” “disco ball”) and connect to “Mirrorball” (08:05–09:06).

Real-life Inspiration: Jeff Lang

• Swift’s long-buried grief over high school friend Jeff Lang anchors the song:
  • When Jeff died of an overdose in 2010, Taylor rushed home to attend his funeral. The song processes her regret at not having taken a romantic chance and the broader “what if” of being unable to save him (14:02, 15:19).
  • "She thinks she could have saved his life." — Joe (15:32)
  • Direct allusion to “Fate of Ophelia”: Swift wonders if she could have “saved [his] heart from the fate of Ophelia”—invoking the Shakespearean tragedy of accidental or intentional loss (15:19).

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3. Memorable Quotes & Emotional Peaks

On Regret and Personal Responsibility:

• "My advice is always: ruin the friendship. Better that than regret it for all time. Should have kissed you anyway." — Joe quoting the closing lyric (19:43)
• "Clearly she's been asking this question all her life. Like, could she have saved this?" — Antonia (19:47)

On Grief and Survivor’s Guilt:

• “A friend commits suicide, you always wonder what more you could have done. But you don't usually wonder, I could have... been their significant other... and they wouldn't have been depressed... but that's not what real depression is.” — Joe (17:30–18:27)

On Songwriting as Emotional Window:

• “What makes Taylor Swift so great is that she often breaks the formula... You don't get a lot of pop songs about how you reacted to your friend’s suicide.” — Toni (23:16)

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4. Guest Segment: Amy Odell on Hatred Towards Powerful Women and Pop Stardom

Timestamps: 26:16–57:29

Why Successful Women Face More Criticism

• Amy explains, with examples of Anna Wintour & Gwyneth Paltrow:
  • Real critiques exist, but “at the peak of their fame and exposure,” backlash/demonizing is ramped up by sexism (28:49–31:46).
  • With Swift, much of the criticism is about “her opacity,” consumer focus, and presumed capitalistic intent—but Amy and Toni argue this often holds women to a higher standard than male stars (29:10–32:57).

Taylor’s Broader Appeal and Controlled Image

• Swift’s team is masterful; her relatability is curated through approachable (even "bland") fashion, avoiding edginess or trend-chasing, and maintaining a sense of accessibility (39:21–42:42).
• Unlike other pop stars, Swift avoids “American oligarchy”—she doesn’t court the Bezos/Trump/Kardashian world (44:23).

Media Handling and PR Savvy

• Swift’s publicist Tree Payne is “best in the business,” ensuring Taylor controls her own story, often bypassing journalists and traditional media (51:15–53:10).

Notable Quotes:

• “She’s not just her own meal ticket. She’s like a lot of people’s meal ticket. Or maybe not even a meal ticket, but a yacht ticket!” — Amy (32:13)
• “I have absolutely no problem with my daughter consuming any of her content… that’s rare.” — Amy (37:10)
• “You can come out with an album and fans will find one line in one song and go nuts over that.” — Joe (37:17)
• “I think her style is bland… and I’m not trying to say this in a judgmental way, I’m trying to say it in an observational way.” — Amy (39:34 and 42:00)
• “Taylor clearly plays into… that you can get hate-watches and the haters can drive your album publicity.” — Joe (47:57)

Advice for Aspiring Writers and Creatives

• Amy advises building one’s audience independently in the shifting AI/media landscape. “You always have to look forward and think about the next thing… and don’t fall behind.” (53:59–56:51)

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Thematic Takeaways

The Song’s Place in the Taylor Swift Universe

• “Ruin the Friendship” isn’t just high-school nostalgia; it’s a through-line joining Taylor’s regret, personal loss, and creative evolution.
• It's deeply interconnected with her other work—especially Folklore—in both lyric and emotional structure.

Storytelling Tools for Listeners

• “Glistening grass” and “driving” metaphors offer ways to convey emotion and specificity in storytelling.
• Writing from real longing or regret can touch universal truths and drive deeper engagement with audiences.

On Legacy and Critique

• Taylor Swift’s career longevity is tied to her total creative control (both as songwriter and as persona).
• The disproportionate criticism successful women face in public life is structurally sexist and affects the entire music and entertainment industry.

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Notable Timestamps

• 02:09: Discussion of figurative language and autobiographical specificity in “Ruin the Friendship.”
• 06:15: Connections with Folklore’s love triangle; deep lyrical motif analysis.
• 14:02: The "bombshell" — direct tie to the death of Jeff Lang.
• 15:19: Analysis of “Fate of Ophelia” and Shakespearean allusion.
• 19:43–20:26: Powerful conversation on the limits of saving others and lessons about regret.
• 23:16: Toni on the rarity of pop stars discussing grief and loss.
• 26:16–57:29: Amy Odell’s guest segment on women in the public eye, pop stardom, fashion, and career advice.

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Conclusion

Final Message:
Joe and Toni underline that Taylor Swift’s emotional transparency and lyricism make her a modern Shakespeare, and her songwriting—especially songs like “Ruin the Friendship”—offer life and communication lessons for everyone. Guest Amy Odell rounds out the discussion by showing how managing one’s public image, building direct relationships with audiences, and channeling one’s story authentically are key to sustained impact, both for pop stars and for aspiring writers.

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For further engagement, the hosts encourage listeners to share the podcast and follow Amy Odell’s "Backrow" for continued culture and fashion insights.

Transcript

[A]

Hi. This is Decoding Taylor Swift, where we dig into the deeper meaning of the life of a showgirl. One song each week. Today, we will transform how you think about ruin the friendship with the help of my swifty father, a storytelling expert recognized by Rolling Stone magazine.

[B]

I'm Jo Roam, and my daughter Antonia is great at decoding lyrics, writing, and making people laugh, mostly at my expense. But, you know, now you're just like.

[A]

A treasure trove of material. He just like. I mean, seriously, he's bald.

[B]

Happy to be your straight man. Now, this is an amazing song, but the big question is, why is this song about Taylor Swift's high school days on an album about the Eras tour and the life of a showgirl? We will solve that mystery. And then we will dive into the question of why Taylor has so many haters with our special guest and Amy Odell.

[A]

She's very cool.

[B]

Yes, she is very cool.

[A]

Yes. And now it's my turn to talk.

[B]

Now it is your turn to talk.

[A]

I guess I'll just say that we're at home now. I'm on break. I can, like, hug him now.

[B]

Yes, we are, too.

[A]

I also poke him now.

[B]

No, no, no, you can't poke him.

[A]

Can I boop you? No, I booped him.

[B]

You can do this. She used to do this a lot, by the way. She used to do that where she put her finger right next to my face, but not actually at my face.

[A]

I was doing a very advanced psychological technique.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it's. It's. I was testing the patience threshold of a man in his mid-50s.

[B]

All righty.

[A]

It was very informative.

[B]

Yes. Let's dive into these song lyrics because this is one of those songs where it kind of looks simple on the outside, but it is anything but simple.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

Why don't you.

[A]

Yeah. He wants me to take the parts that he thinks is less interesting.

[B]

No, no, these are very interesting. Don't get me wrong.

[A]

Okay, well, I think that Taylor kind of.

[B]

No, no. Let's dive into the lyrics.

[A]

Well, I was. I was going to.

[B]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[A]

I was about to.

[B]

Oops, Sorry.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. It's like, let a woman talk. Oh, my Lord. Anyway, so this song, I think, is kind of a reversion back to a lot of the more figurative style language you would see on earlier albums, like perhaps Red, even Folklore, like Glistening Grass from September Rain. Gray overpass full of neon names. Gray overpass full of neon names. I mean, you got, like, juxtapos right there. Gray overpass Neon names. Anyway, I like the figurative language. It contains a lot of allusions to her hometown. I think this song, you know, like, you drive 85 Gallatin Road, Lakeside Beach. She's like referencing an actual road that actually exists in Tennessee. And so I think, like, you know, this is definitely a song that's about her, and it's not one of those songs where she's kind of trying to separate herself into a character. Not more so than she would in any other song.

[B]

No question about that. Let's. Let me just say folklore was what?

[A]

Well, and she evermore specifically had a song about her grandmother and the death of her grandmother, too, which is perhaps reminiscent of this song.

[B]

Well, and one of the great songwriters of all time whom she is working with, when she brought up on the earth, Max Martin, when she told Max Martin that she wanted to do an album, he said, well, you know, he.

[A]

Wanted to do the storytelling of folklore.

[B]

Storytelling of folklore. So that will be quite relevant here, you know, and the U drive 85. Apparently, 85 is like the road, but an average listener is just going to think that he's driving it. Driving 85 miles an hour.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Right. And she notoriously dates bad drivers.

[A]

Bad drivers. This is yet another that's so true style, this song.

[B]

All too well, yeah. All too well, yeah. But Daddy, I love him well.

[A]

And driving is a very popular metaphor. Like, Lizzie McAlpine has a song about it about, like, you know, relationships being kind of moving too fast. It's a very common metaphor used in a lot of, you know, pieces of literature. Post, you know, the invention of, like, the Ford. Whatever.

[B]

Let's go to t. Let's continue with this.

[A]

Okay, But I think that the metaphor of driving is a very interesting one. I think it's very interesting that she opens with it. Can I say that? Can I say that?

[B]

Because I think it is interesting. Well, what do you think it means?

[A]

Well, I think that she wants to open by saying that this friendship that she had was immediately something that was perhaps more romantic bent, maybe a little bit more adventurous. They were moving very quickly, but she was a little bit scared. You know, this is not the Taylor that we are used to. This is. This is a Taylor. And perhaps this is the lesson that taught her. Maybe move a little quickly in your relationships because you never know what's going to happen. But this is like the tailor that is moving quickly, but she doesn't want to, you know.

[B]

Well, she's cautious.

[A]

Well, cautious.

[B]

Kind of like what she said in El. She is a Careless Men's counselor. But also from eldest daughter, where she says she became cautious. Right now, we don't really think of Taylor as cautious because she kind of leaps into a lot of relationships, but this was definitely an unusual case. She did not leap into this relationship.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, she was obviously having ideations about doing it anyway.

[B]

Dive in.

[A]

Dive in. I've. I've dove. No, no more.

[B]

I want to hear more.

[A]

Okay. And it was not an invitation. Should have kissed you anyway. Should have kissed you anyway And. And obviously it will keep going.

[B]

Let's. Let's do the whole chorus.

[A]

Not convenient. No, but your girlfriend was away. Should have kissed you anyway. I think. I think the chorus is. It's not. There's not much to impact content wise, other than the structure of the words. And we can get.

[B]

I'm gonna disagree with you.

[A]

I mean, it was.

[B]

Well, let's. What does she mean literally? Let's always look at what she says literally.

[A]

She means that there was no point where he was like, you should kiss me.

[B]

But she now thinks she should have kissed him anyway. And as we'll learn by the end, she bitterly regrets this.

[A]

Well, sure.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So, yeah, I mean, I think the reason I said there's nothing to it, but I think the lyrics are very literal about. Like, this meaning is a very. It has a very literal meaning. The reason why structurally it works is. I don't know. You can talk about that.

[B]

Well, look, what I think is remarkable since we talked about folklore, is this is the love triangle story.

[A]

Wow. That is actually true. Except that's crazy.

[B]

It is crazy.

[A]

That's lowkey crazy. And she talks about prom too.

[B]

Right. In the second verse is also about a dance. Right. So compared to we. We.

[A]

He's cooking right now. Let him cook.

[B]

We did a whole episode on Cardigan.

[A]

Guys walk in.

[B]

And so, yes, the point is, she is bitterly regretting something that she previously wrote about where it was the guy. Remember what James the boy says this is. Imagine him as James. James. When he so regretted.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Cheating on his girlfriend that he said, this is the worst thing that I've ever done.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So in this song, I would venture.

[A]

To say that a lot of folklore, I mean, whether she realized or not came from this specific, you know, Jeff Lang.

[B]

Well, it could be. I'm just saying in this version, she's bitterly regretting something. In the folklore version, this was the worst mistake the boy made. Right. And she would be. She would wish that she would be August.

[A]

She would be.

[B]

Yeah, she would be August. And remember, the Song August, we learn she never had him. Right. He fooled around with her. And then you go to Cardigan, which we analyze, and the actual girlfriend ends up in this long term relationship with this terrible guy who constantly leaves her and comes back to her. Right. So this is. This is kind of head exploding. And now, as with the song Betty, the second verse is about a dance.

[A]

Yes, it is. Shiny wood floors underneath my feet Disco ball makes everything look cheap.

[C]

Have fun.

[A]

It's prom, guys. And I mean, the rest of the verse. Wilted corsage dangles from my wrist over his shoulder I catch a glimpse and see you looking at me. I mean, she went with other people to the prom, I think.

[B]

Did he go with his girlfriend?

[A]

I mean, I mean, that's the assumption, presumably. Yeah. Well, the other thing is that disco ball makes everything look cheap, I think. I mean, she talks about Mirrorball. Like she has a whole song.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

This is a viewer ring. Folklore a lot. This song kind of has a lot of elements that she talks about on Folklore. Betty August. And now she has Mirabal talking about how she's Mirrorball. Basically. It's a little bit reductive because I love Mirrorball, but it's basically just about how she acts like a mirrorball. She reflects other people. She tries to make the room brighter, but inside she's just spinning.

[B]

She's subsuming her own.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

She's. She's being a reflection to other people.

[A]

And that they'll like them more. She's performing, right? Yeah.

[B]

And the disco ball performance, like the.

[A]

Life of a showgirl.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

And. But it's a sad one because everything looks cheap and the corsage is wilted. So this. This is a sad.

[A]

It is.

[B]

This is a sad.

[A]

This is a 50 Cent song playing. Fun fact is that 50 Cent was part of the reason that she got inspired to buy back her ma master records.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know the entire story, but basically, like 50 Cent and Her have been in cahoots for a while with Midnights. She, like, made, you know, 50 Cent was kind of a covert collaborator on vigilante. Like current 50 Cent, like, kind of are like a thing.

[B]

Well, she likes. And she really likes the song duo.

[A]

Yeah. Like, she's.

[B]

She has said that she really thinks.

[A]

I'm a big 50 Cent fan.

[B]

Yeah, she is a big, big 50 Cent fan.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like, seriously, for me, he's basically a dollar. That's what I'll say.

[B]

So we get back to the chorus and she regrets again, should have kissed you except how would you kiss him at the prom when his.

[A]

I mean, he was right there?

[B]

Yeah, that would have been pretty strange.

[A]

Yeah, well, she said, like, would have been the best mistake. I mean, like.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

She would have retroactively been like, oh, no. Oh, my gosh. Well, I made a mistake.

[B]

Right. But remember, if we leap to the song. Betty.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. Then there's a dance, right? And he. James, sees his girlfriend dancing their song together. Right. Her girl. His girlfriend with another guy. Right. That's what sets off the chain of events where August will eventually pick her up, pick him up in the car. Right. So these songs are definitely. They're connected.

[A]

Yeah. This is a lot of. I think. I think the whole album has kind of allusions to her previous, you know.

[B]

Yes. Right.

[A]

This poem specifically is kind of like folklore's little homage. While also. But I think. I think not all of it's intentional. I think some of it is because of the fact that maybe she got a lot of the artistic ideas from folklore, from the experience that she had with Jeff Lang. You know, I mean, talking about her high school days, she imagines this whole scenario. She says it's fiction, but, like, a lot of fiction you can get from real life. Most writers are not picking up things out of nowhere.

[B]

Well, yeah, and one thing we know about Taylor is she has a long memory for emotional things. Right.

[A]

That's a great point.

[B]

Right. So look, we're talking about 15, 16, 17 years later, right? She sticks a song on the bitter regret she has, and we will get to exactly why it's so bitter.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So now we go to the next.

[A]

I mean, it's all just about, like, you know, high school. Don't make it awkward in second period. Might piss your ex off. Lately we've been good. Saying friends is safe doesn't mean you should, you know, and that's repeats.

[B]

So now, however, she has an opening. Right. Because in the first instance, the boy has a girlfriend, so it's partly ruined the friendship, but.

[A]

But ruin the friendship between her and the girls.

[B]

Well, but the point. You're right. And I mean, it's a much bigger deal, obviously, to kiss the boy when he has a girlfriend, then. When. Now he doesn't have a girlfriend. I mean, I don't know whether you, you know, in this situation, if. If we don't know how close the she was to the girl, to the girlfriend. Right. Obviously, if they were close, it would be a very huge deal. Right. But in any case, even if they.

[A]

Weren'T close, had the opportunity to. She like, didn't take it.

[B]

Right. She didn't take it.

[A]

So I think that part of the problem with. I mean, not to psychoanalyze a woman that I don't know personally, but, you know, I will say that if she's regretted this decision, right. To not, you know, go for this romantic relationship, knowing that maybe it could be bad, perhaps it led her to choose romantic relationships that she knew may be bad, but just because she regretted so much, not.

[B]

Well, there you go. That's a very interesting point, my daughter.

[A]

Is it an interesting point?

[B]

It is. That's a very interesting psychological point.

[A]

Guys, at my college, too many people talk about Freud, and I think they're rubbing off on me. I can't lie.

[B]

Well, they did when I was in college. It was now, of course, let's just.

[A]

Say I'm glad that you're not my mom and I'm not a son, because that'd be pretty bad.

[B]

All I would say is that, yeah, I don't think this is really Freudian to ask the question of whether she was rather Jungian. Right.

[A]

You know, like CBT type. But, I mean, I think it is, you know.

[B]

Well, let's get to the Bombshell.

[A]

Well, let's get to Pullman.

[B]

Let's get to the Bombshell. When I left school, I lost track of you. Abigail, her best friend, real person referenced.

[A]

In, like, you know, seven bunch of.

[B]

Other songs called Me with the Bad News, Goodbye, and Will never Know why.

[A]

Right. So this song is clearly about Jeff Lang, a dude that she knew in high school. They were friends. His mom said she would sing her songs to him before anyone else. They were really close. And then he died of an overdose in 2010, right after the release of her Speak Now. And she flew back to attend his funeral right before the Country Music Awards and sung at his funeral.

[B]

It was not an invitation But I flew home anyway with so much left to say it was not convenient, no. But I whispered at the grave should have kissed you anyway Ooh. And it was not it was not an invitation should have kissed you anyway. So let's talk about this. Cause this is obviously the bombshell. This lyric is what A tells us. She's talking about Jeff Lang. And this lyric connects to another song on the album and is, I believe, the reason why this song is on the album.

[A]

Yeah. And Father Fig.

[B]

No. And if you'd never come for me I might have drowned in the melancholy.

[A]

Oh, the fate of Ophelia.

[B]

Late one night you dug me out of my grave and saved my heart from the fate of Ophelia. What she is saying here is not that this was just some high school romance that she is regretting. She thinks she could have saved his life.

[A]

Yeah, it's true.

[B]

That's why. That's why this song she is so obsessed about and is 15 years later has put it on this album.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think. I think that's a very common, like, I mean, being obsessed with, like. I mean, why would she be obsessed with this boy who she didn't get into a relationship with? You know, I've had plenty of crushes.

[C]

We have.

[B]

We all. We all do. And let me make one point, which is she has announced the engagement to be married. And I will tell you, when you, as an adult, if you do decide to get married, as I did, anyone naturally is gonna think about the what ifs, Right? That is a very natural response. Oh, how might my life have been different that I wouldn't have gotten to this point? Who might I have ended up with? I would say if you talked to married people.

[A]

Well, you think that she's saying that she could have ended up with him.

[B]

Yes. And saved his life. Right. Cause that's because she could have been his Travis Kelce. Right. And saved him from the fate of Ophelia. And the reason I say that is because Ophelia commits suicide. No, we don't know. It is a pivot point of the entire play, Hamlet, that we don't know.

[A]

Whether or not he was.

[B]

Her death was questionable. Right. That was the point.

[A]

Whether or not she had agency in her.

[B]

Right. Whether she. She was so unaware of her surroundings that she died unintentionally, or she, in fact, chose to let herself drown intentionally. Right? So the minute that she says, we'll never know why she is immediately connecting directly to Ophelia. Right. And so, yes, I think that. Interesting that what is going on in this song and the reason why this song is on the album, certainly whenever.

[A]

A friend commits suicide, you always wonder what more you could have done.

[B]

But you don't usually wonder. I could have. I could have been their significant other. Right. And. And the love of their life, and they wouldn't have been depressed. And of course, as I hope we all know, all the listeners and everybody understand that depression of the kind that causes people to kill themselves isn't really curable by falling in love with somebody. I mean, it isn't. I mean, I. I have. You know, I've been through depression. You know that it's just. It is a common myth, and I understand that. A. A high school girl, right. Could easily think, oh, he's just sad. Right. And with me he won't be sad. But that's not what real depression, the kind of depression that. That might cause you. We don't know. To. To wish you were dead so much that you overdose on drugs. Right. That kind of depression, really, especially the nature of drug. Right.

[A]

Like an overdose.

[B]

Right. So she is. He is. He's an addict. Right. And so. Yeah, I mean, I. She has this high school.

[C]

Well.

[A]

And he died well after high school.

[B]

Yeah. But it was not. It was a few. How many years? A few years later.

[A]

Oh, that's true. I guess. 2010. I always. Yes, guys, 2010 was not that.

[B]

No, she was born in 1989.

[A]

Oh, he was 21.

[C]

Right. Wow.

[B]

Right. So she was still very young. And I can totally understand how she might think.

[A]

Yeah, well, it's supposed to be fun turning 21.

[B]

Right.

[A]

This was probably on her mind during that year.

[B]

Well, look, you know, one thing we know about Taylor, she feels very deeply compared to most people. She. When she's in an emotion, she just dials it up to 11. Like that's. And by the way, this is how the song ends, right? I mean, my advice is always ruin the friendship. Better that than regret it for all time. Should have kissed you anyway. And my advice is always answer the question. Better that than to ask it all your life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, Jesus Christ. Should have kissed you anyway.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, clearly she's been asking this question all her life. Like, could she have saved this?

[B]

This is the question she asked. And, and it's, it's, it's. I mean, when you're.

[A]

That's a hard question to ask yourself.

[B]

It is. It's under. And again, it's.

[A]

I mean, and it's also like, it's.

[B]

One thing for an 18 year old or 20 year old to ask it. You know, for once you're. You've been through the world and you realize that again, you aren't curing someone's depression. And in some sense, by the way, that's why Life of Ophelia. But. And I, and I actually thought, well.

[A]

The only way to have prevented his suicide would be to just like spend all the time around him, like take away all of like the material, still.

[B]

Take away his agency.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And.

[A]

And that is.

[B]

No, it's not. It's. Again, I can understand when she was young, she thought this. I did think that one of the reasons she put this on this album, on this album is to say, yeah, Ophelia was a made up situation. Right. Shakespeare made up this character who ended up going crazy, getting.

[A]

Right. But loneliness can kill.

[B]

Right. But just so you know, this, this has actually happened. But look, yes, she should she feel guilty. I mean, obviously you can't tell other people not to feel guilty about things. We all feel guilty about things we shouldn't have.

[A]

That is true. But you know, especially when it comes to things like suicide, it's, it's never, you know, there's no way to, to tell whether or not you could have saved them. And it's likely that you probably couldn't.

[C]

No.

[B]

And, and, and what's more, you then get, I mean, if you're a professional psychologist, right, then maybe you could help someone. But if you're just a regular person, right, you could get into an enabling mode, which is just really crazy. Right.

[A]

I know especially with addiction a lot of times the way to save some. I mean, like, there's a very, very specific way that you have to deal with an addiction to kind of wean somebody off, especially if they're doing it to treat themselves for.

[B]

Well, and that's why people have interventions.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Right. All the friends get together and say, gu, you have a problem, we love.

[A]

You and we're going to sit right now and drive you to rehab.

[B]

Like right now. Exactly.

[A]

Which is what you kind of have to do. You have to be able to, like, if you're going to do it, like.

[B]

You can't and you only have to look at, at, at, you know, John Mulaney. Well, no, I was thinking of Chandler. Oh, yeah, that, that just. And, and that's the whole point. Even if you go through that process and they go through rehab, a lot.

[A]

Of people, Amy Winehouse, that's who I think of every time. I mean, like, seriously, like a few days before she went to the doctors, like this, you know, gonna be really depressing. But she went to, I mean, I think about her all the time. Like she went to her doctor and told her doctor, like, she has an alcohol abuse problem, but she doesn't want to die. She was literally like, I don't want to die. Like, I just, you know, I drink a lot, but I don't want to die. And then like three days later, basically, she was found in her apartment.

[B]

Well, look, there are few things more tragic and, and difficult to deal with than suicide of somebody. You know, it just, it's.

[A]

Well, especially when it's with substances, because substances specifically, like, way, I mean, obviously the way to, you know, this is not a podcast about how to handle addiction.

[B]

No, no. And I. And please, obviously, is also not this way. No, no. I. And I. I think that obviously, if anyone out there has an addiction or is contemplating suicide, please seek professional help. But look, this. This song is just powerful.

[A]

It is. It's a lot of people's favorite. I think there's a. There's a big power in using, like, your own emotional journeys in your songs. You know, I think pop music generally has this, you know, like, little formula. It's a very formulaic, you know, type of music. And I think what makes Taylor Swift so great is that she often will break it. Right. Like, I feel like in pop song, you don't get a lot of songs about how you reacted to your friend's suicide. That's not what you'd write a. You'd write a love song. Maybe you'd write a song about how, like, your lover died and now you're sad. But this specific type of song, you know, talking about how your grandmother died, even talking about how, you know, making up a story of people like, this is not regular pop music.

[B]

You know, look, as we've discussed, she.

[A]

Likes to disguise her content as pop music. But if you sang this exact song with, like, a acoustic guitar in kind of a Noah Khan folky way, like, this would be still the type of stuff that it would make. It would make sense. Make more sense, even. Well, yeah, that's my hot take.

[B]

Look. And I think there is an acoustic version now.

[A]

There is, yes.

[B]

Because. And I mean, for. All too well. Right? There's the sad girl.

[A]

Yeah, Sad girl, Autumn.

[B]

Sad girl version. So that's why the opening to this song is also sort of. It's not upbeat, but it's kind of a little bouncy. So, yeah, this song is, I think, a classic Taylor Swift in that she wanted to write a song that would convey to people the emotion of regret, of extreme regret. Much as in the song.

[A]

Oh, the life of a showgirl. Yeah. Is one of regret, perhaps.

[B]

Well, and it's ironic in that sense, because in the song, as we'll get to the life of a showgirl, she says, and you're never, you know, you don't know the life of a showgirl, and you're never, ever gonna. But what. Even though Taylor says that she still writes a lot of songs in which she tries to show people the emotions that she had in real life. Right. Much as when we discussed the song Red, the song Red is a string of 17 metaphors. This is how this relationship felt, Right.

[A]

Yeah. Kind of a synesthetic, kind of like using round colors.

[B]

And I think this is one of the reasons why Taylor is so popular and why she does so many different types of films.

[A]

That's a very good window into emotion, the emotion of somebody who's a celebrity.

[B]

Yeah. And we all have experienced great regret.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And loss.

[B]

And loss. And that is a defining human emotion, which presumably is there partly. So we remember the people we love.

[A]

But also learn from our mistakes.

[B]

Learn from our mistakes. And those. If a mistake is so tragic, obviously.

[A]

Well, and there is such a thing as misplaced regret. Right. Where your brain is under the impression that what happened could have been fixed like this, then you can regret your decision to not ruin the friendship.

[B]

Coming up next, Amy o', Dell, welcome back.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

We have Amy Odell as our guest, an expert on culture and fashion. And she has written a couple books on Anna Wintour and Gwyneth Paltrow and used to be an editor at Cosmopolitan. And if you want to introduce yourself, tell us about your substack and a new podcast.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to dip my toe into Taylor's world a bit. I write Backrow, which is a fashion and culture newsletter, and I it recently became a podcast and I cover lots of Anna. A little bit of Taylor. Yeah. Anything going on in fashion and culture that is fun to talk about?

[B]

Basically, you a year ago had written a post about the tortured poets department and the negative reaction to that.

[C]

Yes, I almost forgot.

[B]

So let's talk about the intersection of your work and Taylor. You've written about a couple of very famous, successful women who have a lot of critics or haters. And Taylor is in the group of famous, successful women who certainly has haters. And this album has gotten a lot of push back. I'm just wondering your thoughts on this phenomenon of women who are very successful creative, getting very big pushback. And do you think that that's more happened to famous women than famous, successful men?

[C]

Yeah, I think there's a lot of sexism wrapped up in it. You know, with Anna and with Gwyneth, there have been real reasons for them to become controversial. For instance, Anna Wintour, she was the editor in chief of Vogue only until very recently because she stepped back to give the head of editorial content job to someone else to free up her time a bit. I kind asked, but she's associated with promoting a very thin, Eurocentric white ideal of beauty, which is an aspect of her legacy that I think fairly deserves some scrutiny. So she's become controversial for those reasons. Also her treatment of assistance, I think. Yeah. That was kind of celebrated in the 2000s, and then, thanks to the Devil Wears Prada, people were just like, this is so funny. And she's eccentric. And I think her behavior received some renewed scrutiny around 2020. So I think there's real reasons for them to be associated with controversy. And with Gwyneth, she's promoted so much medical misinformation that I think is deeply problematic and tries to sell women things that, you know, won't help them. Won't help them, you know.

[B]

Right, right.

[C]

And promotes things like raw milk, which could really harm you. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And it's just part of, like, also the broader culture shift, like, among, like, RFK and that type of stuff, and.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I think pseudoscience, which is.

[C]

Yes, thank you for saying that. Yeah. I think that Goop laid the groundwork for Maha and for RFK Jr. Unfortunately.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So I think there's real reasons for those women to be controversial, but you're gonna have to tell me, because your. Your tailor knowledge is so much deeper than mine. But is there, like, what has Taylor.

[A]

Done.

[C]

To be controversial?

[A]

I mean, the real question is, what hasn't she done about how to give the public any sense of what she really believes about various type of issues? Even Maha, she gets a lot of criticism. I think ever since the second Trump administration, there seems to be kind of an era of tradwifeism kind of coming back, and we've talked about that a little bit on the pod, but I think there's a question of whether there's a celebrity to use your platform to, you know, speak up about issues that you care about. I think, like, I think a lot of why people are hating on Taylor right now, a little bit of the same problems with Venice. It's just opaque what they believe in, and it seems what they're selling. The only kind of conclusion you can draw is that they just care about money and consumerism. And obviously, that's probably not true, but I think that's where Taylor gets a lot of her criticism from.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Because of.

[C]

I have two thoughts on that. So, one with going back to Gwyneth, I think she's probably a better corollary for Taylor than Anna. But Gwyneth became really hated. I noticed in my research for the book, after she won her Oscar. So she was at the peak of her fame and her media exposure, I would say. And when she won the Oscar, there was an item in the New York Times, a small. Like a very Small one about how the necklace she wore, she had this thin diamond choker that she wore with her pink Ralph Lauren gown. And the article was about how she had sort of said, as an aside, to Harry Winston, which loaned her the necklace, my daddy's buying me the necklace. And her father was sick and dying of cancer. I don't know that anyone was dying, but he was ill. And it was a very emotional night for her. That's part of why she broke down crying. And he looks over at her during the ceremony and thinks, she's so beautiful. I'm so proud of her. I'm gonna buy her the necklace. And he does. And so that's written up. And then there were all these sort of essays about how annoying she is and how much people, like, couldn't stand her. And that article was cited in just about all of them. Like, who is this spoiled. Nobody called them nepo babies back then, but who is this, you know, spoiled rich girl? Maybe the word nepotism was used, if not nepo baby. But it did feel sexist. It did feel like, oh, she's just reached the top, so let's bring her down, let's tear her down, you know, which is. I hate to even put it in those cliche terms, but it's a real thing. We see it happen again and again. And I do think that's a sexist thing, as I said in the book. And then Taylor.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So I've been thinking about. About how people are criticizing her for being money hungry. I don't know that much about her team and her representation.

[A]

Right.

[C]

But she probably has managers and agents who make money off of her. Right? Yeah, yeah, she does. Right. Okay. So when you have that many people making money off of you, I just have to imagine that that's probably where some of that comes from, too. Like, everyone. Yeah.

[A]

She's not just to her.

[C]

She's not her own meal ticket. She's like a lot of people's meal ticket. Or maybe not even a meal ticket, but a yacht ticket. So maybe that's, you know, that's kind of my defense of her in that way.

[A]

Sure, yes.

[C]

I understand what people are saying that it seems gross, but I can only imagine that there's so many people making money off of her that are pushing her in that direction.

[A]

And.

[C]

And, you know, maybe she wants to earn money, too. This is capitalism.

[B]

Well, I think.

[A]

Well, yeah, I mean, that's the thing is a lot of men. I mean, just, you know, if I can. I mean, like the tickets for Astroworld were incredibly expensive. And, I mean, Travis Scott is. I mean, like, arguably worse things have happened to men in the industry. You know, people, like, died at Astroworld. I mean, you don't even hear about that now. People aren't, like, saying, boycott Travis Scott.

[C]

I know. That just went away. It's so crazy, right?

[A]

That was a. Yeah, that, like, struck me. It was kind of like one of the first times I really, like, paused and kind of. I don't know. I was gonna say thunk. Critically, when I kind of think critically about. About. I don't know. I feel like people find it uncomfortable to see that the music industry and creative industry is like, an industry. You know, it's. It's not like. Just like, it's not art for the sake of art, because that's not how our society works. And when they see that, even when. Especially when it's somebody like Taylor, who writes such revealing songs. And I think part of the discomfort is that now she's embracing the fact that maybe it is an industry and she's part of it. She wants to make money. And is that good or bad? I guess it's not always for us to say, but it's certainly true that she's not the only one who's taken advantage of the system. The problems with the music industry are not something that Taylor Swift herself can solve. I mean, blaming any one person, especially when it happens to be, like, the biggest woman in the industry, seems a little dubious.

[C]

Yeah, but she also endorsed Kamala.

[A]

That is true. She did do that. People. I mean, it's not like that would have swayed the election. I mean, Taylor Swift can do a lot, but I don't know if she could have done that. But it's. It's hard for her to win either way. I mean, she definitely does have a base that is a little bit more conservative than I'd say, like, Sabrina Carpenter, Stephanie, or Olivia Rodrigo. I think so. I think that.

[C]

Do you think that's because it's just so much bigger, or.

[A]

I think it's just because it's so much bigger. And we've talked a little bit about that on the pod, too.

[B]

I'm not gonna defend her or attack her on this. You don't see a lot of male singers getting involved in politics.

[A]

And people still listen to Kanye, and he's gotten a little bit way too involved in politics.

[B]

I think people still listen to Michael Jackson. You can come up with a whole lot of canceled or semi canceled people. On the commercialization side, I thought. One thing I remember reading Amy is that you pointed out, you know, with the Errors tour, she got rich by writing songs and giving tours. Right. She didn't put out a perfume line. Right. There's a whole bunch of other things that if you're really in the business of I want to make a lot of money, then, you know, I mean, that's true.

[A]

That's a good point.

[B]

There's a lot of things you can do.

[A]

That's true. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, Rihanna has Fenty and Selena Gomez has, like, rare, obviously, but, yeah, that's very interesting.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you for bringing that up, Jo. Yeah. Like, Beyonce was taking some heat. I think it was a bit more friendly heat for releasing something very recently. Oh, her. It was like Cowboy Carter merch or something like that. People were like, we can't afford this. She's gotten that feedback a little bit recently. I'm a big Beyonce fan. I saw same.

[A]

I had her Cowboy Carter thing in my background.

[C]

Yeah, it was so good. Right?

[B]

We did get to see. We've. We've been.

[A]

It was crazy. But thank you, dad. No, I. It was. Yeah. Seriously. So lucky.

[C]

I didn't see eras, but I saw Cowboy Carter twice. Cowboy Carter was.

[A]

Cowboy Carter was, like, truly amazing.

[C]

So fantastic. She is, like, second to none.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

As a performer. But, yeah, people were like, oh, my God. She's. You know, when. When she dropped her perfume right after the tour now. So people are like, we can't afford to go to your tour and buy your perfume. And that happened again recently. I think she launched some merch, and I was like, oh, I want to buy something. I think it was probably sold out. But, yeah, I guess that's true. And, like, men probably don't get that feedback. Beyonce, too, to her credit, did endorse Kamala.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. I mean, a song for the.

[C]

I think it's really tough when your fans are young women, too. And I think Taylor stepped into. You know, I think that her endorsing Kamala, like, that was the right time to wade into the news and politics in that way. And I don't know that I need someone like her to be doing that all the time. I will say, as a parent, I have a daughter who's 4 years old, and she loves Taylor, and that really made me appreciate Taylor in a new way. I have absolutely no problem with my daughter consuming any of her content. Like, there is very little that I would feel uncomfortable with her being exposed to, and I think that that's probably kind of rare. She also does love Beyonce.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

Which is. But yeah, I think Taylor is like a great artist for young people.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, I think we, we, you know, we talk a lot about the depth of her lyrics and that there's a lot more going on in the songs than just on the surface. And in this day and age, you come out with an album and fans will find one line in one song and go nuts over that, you know, but, you know, Bob Dylan wrote 600 songs. You know, it's not like he is remembered for 550 of those songs. I don't think anybody could name them. So I do think we're now in a different era. And you know, 20, 30 years from now, are people going to be playing a lot of Taylor Swift songs? Yeah, they will be.

[C]

Will they Shake it off will be played at every wedding.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[C]

Yeah, of course. Definitely.

[A]

You belong with me.

[B]

Yeah, I was actually just thinking of you belong with me because I went back and watched the video. This is about the girl who's in love with the football player.

[A]

He comes up, there's like the thingies.

[B]

And there's this bad girl who is his girlfriend who treats him badly. But if you look closely, they're both played by Taylor Swift in the music video. So, you know, she's always playing both sides in some sense. And I agree with you on the song lyrics because there's a lot of songs out there. We know that we would not want a 4 year old or an 11 year old to really be listening to a lot of.

[A]

Yeah, you guys got mad at me when I listened to Take me to Church all the time when I was like, younger. I didn't understand what it meant. I thought that he was really into Catholicism. I was like, I don't know. Good for him.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I was like, that's beautiful, man. Like, good for you.

[B]

Yes. And we talked about Despacito and how not knowing what its translation is is a good thing because. Yes. If it had been in English, it would have been in that list.

[A]

I know when I started, like, seriously learning Spanish, I like, I remember listening to that song again and I was.

[C]

Like, holy, what the fuck?

[A]

Like, that's crazy. But it's not as bad as many Bad Bunny songs that I also love.

[B]

Another question for you because you're a fashion person. I was reading, I think it was your piece. Taylor is not a fashionista in the hardcore sense, but it's not really her brand because she's trying to be more relatable.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I'm just wondering on your, on your Thoughts on that and sort of the women these days in music compared to Taylor.

[C]

Well, I think that's part of her very broad appeal. I think her style is a bit. And I'm not trying to say this in a judgmental way, I'm trying to say it in an observational way. I think it's bland and I think it's, it's fun, it's sparkly. She does the boots. I mean, my daughter is always putting on. I have these. They're kind of like Taylor Swift boots. Actually, I don't really wear them that much anymore because they have stiletto heels and they're suede and they're sort of like a tight fitting mid calf boot. She thinks they're just fabulous. Like that's kind of a Taylor Swift, you know, like the little boots with like your leotard. Anyway, yeah, I think that her style is bland, sparkly, just completely fine. It's not edgy at all. And she's wearing the best stuff that you can wear and she's getting custom clothes. Of course she can wear anything that she wants. But it's very different to say charli xCX.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Or even Sabrina Carpenter, I think. Yeah, I just think it's a. It's a lot more approachable and kind of evergreen. I don't really see her as someone who's particularly interested in trends. It almost feels like to me she got stuck in, in time with her looks and she just hasn't updated, which is unusual, I think, for artists because they're constantly changing their look and their vibe to keep us interested in them. Madonna obviously being the most famous example of that. But with Taylor, I get less of that and I guess that consistency and tell me if you agree, I guess that consistency is appealing. So I think it's. She wears, she puts herself together in such a way that my daughter loves it, you know, can enjoy it and appreciate it. I always want to see what she's wearing because she keeps it just interesting enough that you want to know, like she'll go to the football game with jean shorts and like a white boot or something, you know, that goes up to her knees. But it's not threatening, it's not Runway. And that's another thing. Like she's not going to fashion shows, you know. Right. Other artists are at fashion shows. Other artists are at fashion shows all the time. Yeah. I mean, she does not have time. Like if she's on the Eras tour and she's doing this album. When I, when I found that out, I was like, oh, my God. She's one of these people that can just. That's just prolific. Yeah.

[A]

She.

[C]

It's just not really part of her brand, this, like, edgy stuff. And I think it. I think it's really worked for her because you can try to be edgy. I mean, a lot of people say that her clothes are cringe, but you can try to be edgy, and that can be really cringe.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think, like, a lot of what. The response. I think a lot of, like, her behavior in the past few years have also been, like, a response to, like, when she did do Reputation, people at the time, even though now it's like, people really love that. But, I mean, I like Reputation, but at the time, people were like, oh, why is she trying to be edgy? You know, what is this? This is kind of. Yeah. I mean, maybe she saw that and thought, okay, well, you know, why not? I mean, I think she. I think it feels like this point, she's, like, embracing kind of like. Yeah, exactly. Like, she doesn't have to be the most flashy person in the room. That's for other people to do, which I think is a good observation to make.

[C]

Yeah, she kind of does camp. Right. Like the Fate of Ophelia, which is a song I love.

[A]

I agree.

[C]

So good. That video.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Is, like, kind of amazing. And it's camp. Right, Right. And she took the Showgirl thing, which we're seeing in other parts of culture, and she just did it the best, I think. So. I don't know if you guys watch the Victoria's Secret fashion show, but they tried to do. Well, they tried to do a Showgirl thing, too.

[B]

Oh, interesting.

[C]

But it looked really dated to me, and I was like, well, you have Taylor Swift doing it, and she's doing it in a much more modern 2025 and, like, cooler way. And this, like, that draws you in. Whereas what Victoria's Secret did repelled me.

[A]

Really? The most recent show.

[C]

Yeah. I didn't like it.

[A]

Did you? Yeah. Interesting. I only saw part of it. I thought it was better than past shows, but I. I mean, I always feel a little bit like, sure, that's probably true. That's probably Victoria's Secret shows. But I think that's a good point. I think that Taylor did do it a little bit better, kind of the Showgirl thing. That's a really good point, actually.

[C]

It was just more modern, I thought.

[B]

And she doesn't have to really. She doesn't really have to change her look because she is reinventing herself as a musician, constantly going from country to pop. And then. Great point to the reputation. And then she did folklore, which was a very big break. And then she did the Tortured Poets department and then she did this. And they're all. I don't know that all of them are big breaks, but she is.

[A]

She wants some part of herself to be recognizable also. She wants. Yeah, I think that's also. Yeah, that's a good point too. Yeah.

[C]

And something else you can say about her, she's not really been involved in the. I don't know what to call it, except for American oligarchy. Like Kris Jenner's birthday party where Beyonce is there with her mother and Jeff Bezos is hosting it with Lauren Sanchez and Mark Zuckerberg and Ivan Ivanka Trump. Like, like everyone famous, basically. Like Taylor's not. Am I wrong? Like, she's not mixed up in that. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, we're gonna find out because the wedding. The wedding. She is planning a wedding.

[C]

When is the wedding? Do we know?

[A]

Look that up.

[C]

And I give a date so they can have privacy.

[B]

I don't.

[C]

They're not gonna get the privacy.

[B]

No, I mean, look, she's dropping Spades.

[A]

Are Revealed, but yeah, she's driving if they're not.

[B]

She just put out the trailer for this six part series on the ERAS tour that's gonna be on Netflix.

[A]

Apparently she asked Gigi Hadid and Selena Gomez to be bridesmaids. Well, of course Selena Gomez was bridesmaids.

[B]

She has her.

[C]

What about Blake Lively?

[A]

That's a great question.

[B]

They've been talking about her, like planning.

[C]

It right now, so it's probably for the summer. That's what you do. You take a year, you plan your wed. Because she's normal like the rest of us, right? Sure, sure, sure.

[B]

But I would be surprised if she padded the guest list with people she doesn't really know just because they're Jeff Bezos. It doesn't strike me as. That's who she is. She has a lot of famous friends.

[C]

Sure, sure. But she's not one of these people who are like Sydney Sweeney, who's like trying to be in that particular world and she doesn't need to be. But I also think, like when everybody is doing that and you're not, I think that's cool.

[B]

Well, one of the things that we have talked about is it is very different if you are a singer songwriter because if you write your own songs, you can have as long a career as you want. Whereas if you're Britney Spears, you. You're only as good as. As long as a good songwriter will give you one of their songs rather than giving it to the next ingenue or whoever. Right. So those people or you have an unbelievable voice like Whitney Houston. Right. But other than that, the vast majority musicians either write their own songs or they're gonna be pretty flash in a pan type people.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And maybe you see that a little with a Katy Perry. I hate to say, but, you know, we've talked about that.

[C]

Yeah. She got so dragged. I think going to space was probably not the right move.

[A]

Yeah, probably not. Probably not.

[C]

Or if you're gonna do go to space, just go. Don't. Don't tell anybody. Just go.

[A]

I know. Like, just go. Yeah, I agree. And I think, like, I don't know, I just. And it gets back to this whole, like, idea of. Of just. I don't know whether celebrity has to have, like, a purpose. I don't know whether you have to be, like, making art to, like, I don't know, prove yourself to people that you're worth supporting or having so much money. Like, I don't know. I think, like, I think you don't.

[C]

Look at the Kardashians. Look at All's Fair. I don't know if you guys have. Watch that. I was writing about it, so I was thinking about it today, but that show is terrible.

[B]

Which show?

[C]

All's Fair.

[B]

Yes, I.

[C]

You read the reviews. They're hilarious. Yeah, they're hilarious. I can't stop reading about it. But it's. It's like, doing well enough.

[A]

Right.

[C]

It's hard to know in streaming, like.

[A]

Oh, my God, the 4% on rotten tomatoes.

[C]

4% on rotten tomatoes. But Kim Kardashian. I saw. I did watch three episodes of it and can we. She can't act and she. Her own stylist styled her. So she's just herself.

[A]

Like.

[B]

You do have a thing I was gonna ask you about, which Taylor clearly plays into, which is understanding in this day and age that you can get hate watches and the haters can drive your album publicity. She's already said that. Hey, I don't. The first week. You can say whatever you want about my album.

[C]

I loved that. I loved that she said that. And I also loved what she says about your energy. I think this was in the Time magazine story. Your energy is a luxury. Good. She really is good with words. That is true. There are some things that she said that she is stuck with you. Like, I think about that a lot. Where are you going to give your Energy. Where are you going to give your focus? Like, you need to treat it like a luxury. Good. I was like, wow, she's exactly right.

[A]

No, and she's. I. I tr. I do, like, truly believe that she's, like, a genius. I mean, like, she. She has just a very, very special way with words. And I think, like, I think a lot of the criticisms at the end of the day, I mean, whether you like the new album or not, like, I don't think it's a question whether or not she deserves to be this popular, but I do think there are ways to criticize the fact that maybe her albums more recently haven't been her best, but she certainly is. Is a very talented person.

[C]

But I think that it's a sign that people care. What do you guys think about, like, so something that I think Beyonce does that is smart is she releases her album, she does her tour, and then she kind of disappears. Taylor, I feel like, doesn't really disappear as much. I probably will watch that series about her tour with my kids. But do you feel like she should take longer breaks from the public eye for any reason, either perception or for her own self as an artist?

[B]

I think that she got very frustrated with the critics and decided, I'm just going to put out a lot of content. Because she really ramped up her content level in the last five years since the pandemic.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And she just saw that as. I'm just going to show you, right. You. You can criticize me all you want, but, like, I'm laughing all the way to the bank. I'm laughing all the way to five album of the year awards.

[A]

I know. In a row.

[B]

Three.

[A]

Some of them, yeah.

[B]

Current album and her last two albums had the top 10 songs on the Billboard Hot 100 when they were released. No one's ever done that once. So, you know, I just think it's like, you know, catch me if you can. Really? I don't know what you think, Antonia.

[A]

Yeah, I. I mean, that's a great question, actually. That kind of reminds me. One of my best friends in high school was a huge fan of Taylor Swift and her cultural impact sense, and she would, like, educate me. She's like, oh, my gosh, like the Nicki Minaj Snake tweet and all of this stuff. I always kind of saw Taylor Swift as somebody who was kind of omnipresent in the media, but maybe it would give people more time to kind of cool down between her takes, kind of come back with, like, a fresh palette between her songs. And maybe there is, like, a Swift fatigue in a sense. She puts out so much music at a staggering rate, and she's done it all in a row. And when she came back, you know, Folklore and Evermore were kind of the first tracks. Then she kind of kept going and going, and I think, like, her songwriting quality has decreased. I think what it is, is Taylor Swift fatigue. I think it would be interesting to see if she, once she marries Travis Kelce, if she will take a little break.

[B]

Ask you one question that this strikes me, Amy, because I remember reading your piece. She has one of the great publicists.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Tree Payne, who has gotten profiles, you know, you. You wrote about. So you know that. That probably influences things. Right, Right. As. As we know, you don't get publicity by accident in this world.

[C]

No.

[B]

So can you talk a little bit about her or sort of just that idea of a really good publicist and what they do?

[C]

Yeah. I actually have a friend who would talk to her because he worked at one of the big celebrity magazines. But just through that interaction, actually, I was like, wow, she is on it. Like, she knows who she needs to keep in her back pocket. She gives them concert tickets. She gives them information on background. I mean, a lot of celebrity publicists do this, but she's among the best, if not the best. But I was just so. Just through, you know, my friend, impressed by her professionalism and her ability to know. Like, I need to stay in touch with this person, even if this person doesn't have that job anymore. So, yeah, I think that she's really important. And look at, you know, with the Blake Lively, Justin Baldoni mess.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And we got a window into the way Hollywood publicity may or may not work these days. Tree Pain doesn't seem, like, slimy in any type of way. You know what I mean? And the way Taylor handles her own press has been obviously incredibly savvy. I mean, she almost never does real interviews. Right. Like, with journalists. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, she doesn't even have to, which is crazy.

[C]

She doesn't. A lot of people just don't talk to journalists anymore. Like, they'll go on a talk show, but that's not talking to a journalist. But the. The person she talked to for Time is like a celebrity ghostwriter. So, you know, it's going to be a softball. I mean, whatever.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

Yeah. I think to be someone who doesn't have to face a journalist.

[B]

Right.

[C]

But she just. She can do whatever she wants. Like, she doesn't need. Like, she's like, honestly, too big to be on the COVID of Vogue.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, she was. She'd do Jimmy Fallon, you know.

[C]

You think she still needs to do that style?

[B]

No. Well, she did do this album. She wanted to explain her lyrics more, I think, because she knew they might be a little more controversial. Well, one last question.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Since my daughter's a writer, an aspiring writer, and I know some of our listeners are young women, you know, you've had a career, I guess, you know, BuzzFeed and Cosmopolitan and, you know, a couple of very well received book now substack and now podcast. So what. What is sort of your advice in this AI rapidly changing media landscape for somebody who wants to try to do a similar path?

[C]

Yeah, well, I have to say I graduated college in 2006, so the path that I took, you couldn't even take anymore because everything has changed and everything continues to change, as you both well know. And I think that I have two pieces of advice. One is, and this really comes from Anna. I think about this a lot because Anna always talks about it. You always have to look forward and think about the next thing and keep moving forward and don't fall behind. And for me, this might sound like an old person thing to say, but for me, that was like TikTok and doing, you know, the videos. I had my Anna Winter book, Anna, the biography was coming out and I thought I worked so hard on this book. I don't want to leave a single sale on the table. I'm going to figure out TikTok, even though I don't want to do it. And I did it and I developed a little bit of a following there and it was a good way to market the book. So I think, you know, I just said, like, this week I'm gonna figure this out. I got a ring light, you know, I got video editing apps and I just figured it out. So I think that's the mentality you have to have even if you don't want to do it, even if it seems hard and annoying and time consuming, you just have. You have to do it or you're gonna fall out of the conversation and you're gonna fall behind.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

And then the other thing building on that is that you really need your own audience because media companies are not reliable. So there are some cool publications that you could probably still get writing jobs at. I mean, they are few and far between. I hate to say, but I think that it's important while you're working at a company to be working on your own following too. Because if you get laid off from your job, which happens all the time in media. You can't take the audience with you if it's owned by a company, so you need your own audience. And I had this realization a bit. A bit late in my career because I left my last job and I had, you know, been paid to build an audience there, and I did it. But then when I left, that audience wasn't mine anymore. So I was like, I spent all this time, my whole career building audiences because everywhere I was, I was launching or relaunching something, and I spent my whole career building these audiences. And then I would leave these jobs and I wouldn't have audience. So I realized I have these skills. I know how to build an audience online, so I'm going to use it for myself. And I think that's the best investment that you can make. And I have to say, being a solo operator now, it's as much about marketing and self promotion, which, I know it feels icky to some people, but you have to do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It's almost as much about that as it is about, you know, the actual stuff that I'm writing. So being willing. Being willing to put in that work, I just think it's really important. And then the companies that are hiring writers, they're looking to see, do you have a following? Can you help promote your work? Because it's getting harder and harder for media companies to do it as attention drifts to AI from search and all of that. So I could talk about this stuff all day, but those are some quick thoughts. And I do think being able to do video content is really important. I mean, that's where it's all going. We see publications increasingly have their editors and videos. The New York Times just put a video feed in their app, so. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And LinkedIn has gone that way, so. Yes, absolutely. Well, really appreciate your time and your wisdom.

[C]

Thanks for having me. Seriously, I can't believe I got to be on a Taylor Swift podcast.

[A]

Yes. I can't believe we got to have you on our Taylor Swift podcast.

[C]

Yeah. Maybe you guys can come on around and I don't know when she has a fashion moment. Sure.

[A]

We have to.

[B]

Well, yeah, Especially for the wedding.

[A]

Very interested to see the looks.

[C]

Oh, I can't wait to see her dress. I feel like I know what it's going to look like, but maybe she'll surprise us.

[B]

Well, thank you. And people can go to Substack and to the back row and sign up and follow Amy to stay on top of culture and fashion and thank you.

[C]

Thanks, guys. Have a good weekend.

[B]

All right. You too.

[A]

You, too.

[C]

Bye.

[B]

Bye. Bye to everybody. Yes. Let me. Let's just say. Have we. Let's say.

[C]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Goodbye to our fans. Oh, my gosh.

[C]

Goodbye, fans. You guys are all lovely.

[B]

Yes. Sign up. Tell your friends about the podcast.

[A]

Tell your friends, tell your parents, tell your children, tell your grandchildren, tell your grandparents. Thank you. Bye.

[D]

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[E]

From the darkest corners of our imagination comes a game show that that's more ridiculous than terrifying. Welcome to Tickled to Death, the horror comedy game show where nothing is sacred, everything's a little unhinged, and the only thing more cursed than the questions are the jokes. I'm Roz Hernandez, your fearless host, and each week I'll be leading a brave group of guests through twisted horror trivia, improv games, and enough sarcastic banter to make you question all your life's choices. So come for the screams, stay for the snark. Listen to Tickled to Death wherever you get your podcasts and hit follow, unless you want the show to follow you. In the meantime, don't get Tickled to Death.