Taylor is NOT attacking Blake Lively in CANCELLED! She’s backing her friend.

Summary

Podcast Summary: Decoding Taylor Swift

Episode: Taylor is NOT attacking Blake Lively in CANCELLED! She’s backing her friend.
Hosts: Joe Romm & Toni Romm
Date: December 23, 2025

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Main Theme & Purpose

This episode explores the deeper meaning behind Taylor Swift's song "Cancelled" (spelled the British way), challenging public misinterpretations—especially the rumor that the song is a dig at Blake Lively. The Romms argue emphatically that Swift is, in fact, supporting Lively—her close friend—through the song, not attacking her. They break down how Swift uses layered storytelling, metaphor, and allusion to encode personal and universal lessons about cancel culture, loyalty, and resilience. The episode also highlights Swift's superior storytelling techniques and offers advice for writers and creatives on using similar methods to enrich their own work.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Understanding "Cancelled": Not a Diss Track

• Blake Lively as the Subject

  • The hosts assert from the outset that the song is about Blake Lively, dissecting references throughout:
    • “cloaked in Gucci”—Lively is a face of Gucci
    • “whiskey sour”—Lively owns bourbon and non-alcoholic brands linked to whiskey sours
    • “poison thorny flowers”—Lively’s role as Lily Bloom, a florist, in It Ends With Us
  • The song is misunderstood by media and fans, with speculation it's a diss track. Joe:
    • "Sorry, TMZ... this was somehow a diss track by Taylor against Blake. That is not the case." [08:12]

• Song as Support, Not Critique

  • The key insight is Swift stands by Lively, referencing her own experiences of being canceled.
  • Toni: "It's not critical of Blake Lively; it's trying to express support." [05:10]
  • Joe: "This whole song is about the ropes. One of the ropes that Taylor uses. Right, Taylor—this is a rope.” [19:24]

Deconstructing Lyrics & Metaphors

• Chorus Analysis

  • "I like my friends cancelled / cloaked in Gucci and in scandal"—specific nods to Lively’s public persona and businesses. [01:25-02:16]
  • The chorus is a badge of honor for standing by a friend under attack.

• Allusions and Symbolism

  • "Beware the wrath of masked crusaders"—references to Ryan Reynolds (Deadpool) and other masked superheroes; possibly a warning to those attacking Lively, that her defenders are formidable. [08:27-09:18]
  • Use of second person (“you thought it would be okay at first”) implicates the listener in the experience of being canceled, making it universal. [09:27]
  • Death and rebirth metaphors ("picked out your grave and hearse") tie into Swift’s ongoing motifs (e.g. Reputation era, social death) and larger hero's journey themes. [11:29-12:01]

• Witch Imagery

  • Multiple references (“something wicked this way comes,” repeated witch/societal outcast metaphors) frame cancel culture as a modern witch hunt.
  • Joe: “Taylor being a witch. But guess what? Witches have power.” [17:49]
  • Connection to Wicked: Song draws on themes of female friendship, outcasts-turned-empowered. [18:13]

• Pop Culture & Media Callbacks

  • References to Daily Mail’s British spelling of “cancelled,” tying the song’s title and message to sensationalist media coverage of Lively’s situation. [07:21]

Social Commentary & Gender

• Cancellation as Social Shunning

  • Toni: “The fallout from being canceled... comes from how you are responded to socially. It’s a form of social shunning.” [12:40]
  • Discussion of the disproportionate impact of cancellation on marginalized groups: “People of color or women, gay people, those are the people that are hit by being canceled.” [13:07]

• The Scarlet Letter Motif

  • Joe: “Taylor likes to talk about the Scarlet Letter. That was cancellation.” [13:13]
  • Classic literary allusion for public shaming; links to Taylor’s recurring themes.

Storytelling Techniques for Writers & Creators

• Hidden in Plain Sight

  • Swift writes so that the songs work on two levels: surface enjoyment and deeper meaning for those in-the-know.
  • Toni: “You enjoy it more if you know the stories of her life, the stories behind it.” [06:17]

• Running Themes & Motifs

  • Repetition (death, witches, friendship scars) builds cohesion, and references are never random.
  • Joe: “They are thematically relevant and often are part of a running theme… this is something that if you want to be a great fiction writer, you’re gonna have to do.” [46:30]

• Advice for Creators:

  • Balance between subtlety and clarity is important; make sure key themes are clear enough for the intended audience.
  • Bring specificity, but tie details to broader meaning.
  • Toni: “Have someone who is unfamiliar with your writing read it over. They will be able to assess stuff like this…” [44:25]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Metaphor Density
  • Joe: “This is a bigger deal than she originally thought at first... this is a song about the ropes. One of the ropes Taylor uses.” [10:56 & 19:24]
• On the Song’s Intent
  • Toni: “It's about Blake Lively. And it's not critical of Blake Lively." [05:06]
  • Joe: “In fact, what she’s saying is ... I’m not only standing by you, I’m going to show you the ropes in how you fight back.” [19:13]
• On Allusion
  • Joe: “Taylor loves allusions…and we’ve talked about that in a number of her songs.” [16:42]
• On the Role of Subtlety
  • Joe: “Some of your songs may be too subtle. We… have to point it out to you, it’s not subtle…. She just repeats that this is about Blake Lively, like, over and over.” [37:40]

Practical Storytelling Takeaways (44:25–47:00)

• Use thematic consistency—running images and metaphors give songs and stories richer meaning.
• Show, don’t tell: “Be tactful, showing, not telling.” [42:25]
• Be intentional with detail—use specifics not for random color, but as clues.
• Test clarity with “outsider” readers.

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Timestamps of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |----------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 00:17–01:42 | Introductions, overview of episode, summary of Blake Lively context | | 01:42–02:34 | Dissection of chorus and its references to Blake Lively | | 05:10–06:33 | Summary of why the song is supportive, themes of hidden-in-plain-sight storytelling | | 08:12–10:15 | “Masked crusaders”/superhero metaphor, Ryan Reynolds allusion | | 11:29–12:01 | Social death/cancel culture metaphors (“grave and hearse,” hero’s journey) | | 13:07–14:00 | Societal impact and unequal effects of cancellation | | 16:40–17:20 | Literary and pop culture allusions (Icarus, Macbeth, witches) | | 18:13–19:13 | “Wicked” references and female friendship-outcasts theme | | 22:18–28:08 | Second verse, “popular” as a nod to Wicked; extended superhero/fame dangers metaphor | | 28:08–33:29 | “Art of never getting caught,” mysterious back references to other Taylor eras | | 37:40–40:44 | Subtlety in lyric writing; effectiveness and drawbacks in universal songwriting | | 42:21–46:30 | Writer-to-writer advice; running themes and recurring motifs as a storytelling tool |

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Episode Takeaways

• Swift’s message: The song is an affirmation of friendship and loyalty, using sophisticated metaphor, wit, and callback to both modern pop culture and classical literature.
• For writers: Swift’s techniques—layered allusions, repetition of motifs, clear thematic throughlines—offer a blueprint for richer storytelling.
• For listeners: “Cancelled” is not a diss track but a nuanced work of defense and solidarity, asking us to look beneath headlines for the real story.

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Memorable Closing Thoughts

• On Art and Subtlety:

  • Toni: “This is art. There’s nothing completely objective... it’s art.” [39:40]
  • Joe: “Some people write very obviously, some write very subtly… that works for different people.” [45:22]

• On Teacherly Advice:

  • Joe: “Most people’s writing would be better if it was more conversational and most people’s conversational language would be better if it was a little more formal.” [49:58]

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Decoding Taylor Swift’s analysis of “Cancelled” is both an ode to the power of friendship and a masterclass in using story and song to subvert public narratives, teach writing craft, and connect across experience.

Transcript

[A]

Hi, this is Decoding Taylor Swift, where we dig into the deeper meaning of the life of a showgirl. One song each week. Today we will transform how you think about Cancelled spelled the British way with the help of my swifty father, a storytelling expert recognized by Rolling Stone magazine.

[B]

Hi, I'm Joe Rome.

[A]

That is him.

[B]

And my daughter Antonia is great at decoding lyrics, writing, and making people laugh.

[A]

You're too kind.

[B]

And Taylor Swift and is modern day Shakespeare. But this song is widely misunderstood. Taylor is expressing support for Blake Lively. Not attacking her, as we will explain. But be sure to stay to the end since we'll discuss a key storytelling trick Taylor uses that you can too.

[A]

Yes. Especially to make your content more like she does in this song.

[B]

Punchy, punchy and memorable. So we also did a podcast.

[A]

Yes, we did.

[B]

With Tess Barker, who does the great podcast Pop Mystery Pro. So she knew a lot about the whole Blake Lively scandal thing.

[A]

Just so much. Please go listen to our friend Tess. She's great.

[B]

We will definitely touch on it because it's really important to understand this song. This very misunderstood song.

[A]

Very misunderstood. That is true.

[B]

I think we should settle that. This is about Blake Lively first.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then we'll talk about it.

[A]

This is definitely about Blake Lively. Let's go through the chorus where it just basically just says, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam.

[B]

So good thing I like my friends cancelled.

[A]

Oh, sing it, Joe.

[B]

I like them cloaked in Gucci and in scandal. Let my whiskey sour and poison thorny flowers. So she likes her friends canceled.

[A]

It was a good, good attempt.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Yeah, it's okay.

[B]

Do you want to do it?

[A]

No. Anyway, so I am.

[B]

I like them cloaked in Gucci and in scandal. Okay. So step one, Blake Lively, face of Gucci.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. Not step two, like my whiskey sour. And just to be clear. Yes.

[A]

Blake Lively owns a bourbon company very famous for selling whiskey sours.

[B]

Right. She owns the non liquor brand is Betty Buzz. I believe. And the liquor brand, I mean, one of her kids is named Betty is Betty Booze. But she has a sparkling bourbon.

[A]

Yes, she does.

[B]

With apple, ginger, sour cherry and bourbon. For those who don't. You don't know and didn't listen to our episode.

[A]

Amazing, wonderful episode. Oh, father figure.

[B]

Right, Right. Which calls back to getaway car.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But as we said there, bourbon's a type of whiskey. So this.

[A]

Maybe I wasn't listening when you said that. Damn. Is that true?

[C]

Yes. You.

[B]

You were surprised when I said it in that episode.

[A]

Was I?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Should I get tested for something?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Holy moly.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Well, that's okay, guys. It's been a good run for me.

[B]

Bourbon is a type of.

[A]

Was I actually surprised?

[B]

Yes, you were. When. When Taylor is saying whiskey sour. She is. She's also doing a callback to Father figure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. Because he likes to drink the brown liquor. Right. And.

[A]

And bourbon. Very famously brown.

[B]

Right. And Scott Brachetti, who the father figure was, he also, like Blake, coincidentally.

[A]

Coincidentally, owns a.

[B]

A whiskey slash bourbon company.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So, you know, small world.

[A]

Small. World famous. Very small. Well, amongst the rich.

[B]

Amongst the rich, yes.

[A]

Extremely small.

[B]

And we continue.

[A]

Well, like. And poison thorny flowers. If you didn't know. The character that Blake Lively plays in It Ends with us is a florist named. Named Lily Bloom.

[B]

Named Lily Bloom.

[A]

Yes. Colleen Hoover. If there's one thing she's good at, it's subtlety.

[B]

Right. So we can. That's subtle. You know, maybe something isn't like the world's greatest movie. Your characters. Taft names to tell you what their jobs are.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

She's like J.K. rowling in that episode.

[B]

But J.K. rowling was writing kids books. Right. Let's at least draw that distinction.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

It's very, very common, kids books for characters names to be that obvious. It's in mature adult books with very serious storylines. Right. Which this one has.

[A]

I know. Lily Bloom getting domestically abused.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's just terrible. A little bit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, well.

[B]

And anyway, enough said.

[A]

Enough, Enough said.

[B]

The point is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That Taylor is being very obvious.

[A]

Very, very, very.

[B]

That this is about. And we'll see. Other. Other parts of this are also very obvious.

[A]

Yes, they are quite obvious.

[B]

We'll come to. So the point is, whatever misconstrued people have about this.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Now.

[A]

Now I want to make misconceptions.

[B]

Misconceptions. Is the word misconceptions.

[A]

Yeah. You kind of didn't eat that up.

[B]

Well, you can misconstrue something if people misconstrue.

[A]

You can't have a misconstrue.

[B]

No, you can't have a misconstrued.

[A]

Yeah, I clocked him. You should just give me my degree in English already.

[B]

Or at least give you a clock. You have this thing with. So just to be clear, this song, it's a pop song. It's written for a general audience. Right. But to the extent that this is one of Taylor's many, many songs that is also about her life.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's about Blake Lively.

[A]

It's about Blake Lively.

[B]

And it's not critical Blake Lively.

[A]

No, it is trying to express support.

[B]

Sorry, tmz. I read your story that this was somehow a diss track by Taylor against Blake.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That said, before we dive through the lyrics.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Of the song, knowing what you now know, because we learned a lot from Tess Barker.

[A]

Well, what I now know, I'd say the most interesting part of the song is how much can be connected back to Blake Lively. I mean, you really don't see it until you see it. I think that's what Taylor Swift does in a lot of her songs. I think that's what all the best writers do.

[C]

Right.

[A]

In every story, there should be so much that you don't see. You don't see, you don't see, and then you see it, and then there's a moment where you have to learn more. You know, it's hard in songs, in books, you learn more from the story. In fiction, at least, the story is the whole world. You shouldn't. I mean, you may maybe understand allusions and stuff, but in songs, the world is the world. And the song, I mean, if it's from a singer like Taylor Swift, the world around you, you know, it requires knowledge, you know, for the fans. Right. She does this thing where she'll write a good song, but you enjoy it more. You get more out of it. If you know the stories of her life, the stories behind it, and.

[B]

Or the running and symbols and metaphors.

[A]

And if you pay attention. Right.

[B]

And. And we will see that. That this song. And we'll come back to it at the end to explain how everyone can use it. But this song has a lot of parallel running themes and symbols.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. So, look, I think of the song better now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Than before I knew this.

[A]

You know, like, I originally didn't like.

[B]

This, and originally I was. It seemed like it was just another one of those.

[A]

Well, this is a very special Taylor Swift song because usually the degree to which she has, like, you know, hidden stuff is like, you know, it's not that much. It's. You don't have to know anything. That's like her life. You just, you know, look a little deeper and then you'll figure it out. It's like a novel. But this one, I think, specifically she was trying to address the haters, the hashtag cancellers, the Daily Mail, specifically, which, in fun fact, is what we have just probably discovered that a lot of the name might come from. There was an article in 2024 that says, is Blake Lively about to be canceled? Question mark, all caps, spelled the British way. Cause the Daily Mail is British and. Yeah.

[B]

So absolutely. No, I agree. You know, we were trying to figure out exactly why.

[A]

Because it was confusing. Right. Because a lot of people speculated it was about Matty Healy.

[B]

So we don't normally do this, but I do think for this particular song, it's much easier to understand, knowing that it's about Blake Lively, because then you'll see a. All of the other Blake Lively things, and then you'll realize, oh, she's being very supportive of Blake Lively.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And you'll get the meaning of her words more in the intentionality.

[B]

And so if you thought, oh, this is just another Taylor song, kind of being angry about her Taylor Swift being canceled or some. No, it's not. It's not that. I mean, she's. She is sympathetic to Blake, and in fact, you know, she says in the opening track notes.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That. That she is more sympathetic to people being canceled because she has gone through.

[A]

Right. With Kanye and Kim.

[B]

Right. So let's go through this. You thought it would be okay at first, the situation could be saved, of course, but they'd already picked out your grave and hearse. Beware the wrath of masked crusaders.

[A]

Now, Tess made an interesting point when we were on the pod with her. Obviously, the entire kind of phrase says, like, it's kind of the. The start of the descent. She's talking in second person to kind of draw you, the reader slash listener in, to, like, you're trying to imagine what you, you know, are as a canceled person. But beware the wrath of mass crusaders. Tess said, which is very interesting. Blake Lively's husband, very famous for playing Deadpool. He's Ryan Reynolds. And the Green Lantern.

[B]

And the Green Lantern, both of which.

[A]

Are masked heroes, very famously. So it's possible that what this means is the rest of it is like, okay, Blake Lively, you know, you've been cancelled. You thought it could be saved. But a warning to Justin Baldoni, Beware the wrath of masked crusaders. You know, Ryan Reynolds and his ilk and, you know, people that are from friends with her. It's a warning to him, you know, beware the wrath. I thought that was very interesting.

[B]

Yeah. It is unusual for Taylor to speak.

[A]

In the second person.

[B]

In the second person.

[A]

It's unusual for anybody to speak in.

[B]

The second person in a saw. Yeah, it's not common. It doesn't.

[A]

It's not common in literature for people to speak in the second person.

[B]

So she. You know, the question to start with is, who is she talking to?

[A]

Who.

[B]

It's, you know, clearly oh, my God.

[A]

They gave us a thumbs up. Did you see that?

[B]

I didn't see the thumbs up.

[A]

The NSA is back at it again. We have an NSA agent that we think listens to our pod while we're recording. And when we make points that he or she or they like, they just. They just give us a thumbs up. So thank you.

[B]

Yes, thank you.

[A]

Peter Thiel is at it again.

[B]

We. And we did pop mystery pod.

[A]

Hey, Peter.

[B]

It happened. So. Yeah. So you thought that it would be okay at first, right? She. And in other words to Blake. Or this could be anyone who's cancer.

[A]

Right. Yeah. I think these first lyrics are pretty easy to.

[B]

Right. You don't. You don't.

[A]

You know, it's some figurative language. They picked out your grave and hearse. They've already decided that they're gonna cancel you. They're not changing their mind. And I think the.

[B]

But, but let me make a point here about the Blake Lively affair.

[A]

He always likes to make points. Yes, continue with your point.

[B]

Blake Lively did. It ends with us.

[A]

Yes, she did.

[B]

She had issues with her co star.

[A]

Yes, she did. And. And director Justin Baldoni is the director.

[B]

Oh, well, it could be if it was. But the key point is that she also accused him of using social media to smear her.

[A]

Oh, yeah. To cede attacks against her.

[B]

So that's the point is she didn't realize how serious the situation was going to get. Right. And then, you know. But they'd already picked out your grave and her. So the point is this is a bigger deal than she originally thought at first.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Give me one moment. Aha. I'm right.

[B]

Oh, he's the director and the star. Okay.

[C]

You got it.

[A]

Yeah. See, women can know things. Do you get that, Joe? Thank you.

[B]

That's. I didn't know that. Which is why I launched a podcast called Decoding Taylor Swift. Because I didn't.

[A]

Well, because you think you have to be the one to explain it to people. Right.

[B]

Explain that other. That a woman like Taylor is a modern day Shakespeare and can be decoded. Yes, that. That one of the points of the podcast.

[A]

Sorry about that.

[B]

I clocked you on that one, I think. Okay, so. But I make another point. They picked out your graven hearse. Right. So there's going to be a running theme throughout this song about cancellation equals death.

[A]

Yes. Well, it's like social death.

[B]

Right? It's social death, but it's also. This is the hero's journey idea that you have to die and go through a rebirth. Right. Which we know From Taylor's Reputation album. Right. The old Taylor can't come to the phone right now.

[A]

Why? Because she's dead.

[B]

She's dead.

[A]

Well, and I just want to say something else. This is the thing that I realized about the song. I think it's very interesting case study into the effects that cancellation has on the celebrity and various facets of their outward life. And when it comes to cancellation, when I heard the line, I like them cloaked in Gucci and in scandal, I realized that, you know, a lot of stars after they're, you know, quote unquote, canceled, they don't take that much of an economic hit. You know, they're kind of resting on their laurels at that point. And it seems like, although some do. Some do.

[B]

Some. It's serious.

[A]

Well, the people that get hit are the people who socially, you know, because cancellation is a very social phenomenon. Everything that you can see about the fallout from cancelled from being canceled is just it. It comes from how you are responded to socially. Right. It's a form of social shunning. And the people who are already put at social disadvantages, you know, people of color or women, gay people, those are the people that are hit by being canceled.

[B]

You know, Taylor likes to talk about the scarlet letter.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. So that was cancellation.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

The scarlet letter is. Is exactly. You got a big A on you. You're an adulteress. Everyone's gonna see it. Right. What could be a more overt. I mean, it's just. It's full cancellation.

[A]

Yeah, right. Exactly.

[B]

Right. Even people who don't know you now, they. Now they know one thing about you.

[A]

Yeah. Seriously.

[B]

So. Yeah, no, I think this has been a running theme for Taylor. And in fact, this connects to. We'll get to her recurring theme of referring to witches.

[A]

Yes, Right.

[B]

Because witches got canceled in the serious way. Right.

[A]

Well. And they have their pickaxes or their. What do they call their pitchforks.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They have pitchforks. That's a very colonial kind of, you know, hunting witches kind of feel. Right. They picked out your grave and hearse.

[B]

Right. And so let's do the second the. I guess this is the pre chorus. Did you. Girl boss. Too close to the sun.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, what's interesting about this phrase is, is this is the same phrase that Candace Owen used to describe what happened to Blake Lively.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Right.

[C]

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[B]

This song is about plague life.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

But it's also too close to the sun, of course, is a reference to Icarus. Right?

[C]

Who?

[B]

Daedalus, the great inventor invented these wings that you could put on with wax and got his son to Icarus and they went flying. And Daedalus said one thing though. Don't fly too close to the sun because it'll melt. The wax wings will fall off and you'll fall to your death. Right. So of course, this, this is, this is a classic hero, a classical illusion. A classic illusion to the reverse hero's journey. Right. The hubris that leads to death. Right.

[A]

And so, well, they're called, when you reference, you know, kind of the Greek myths or religion, it's called a classical illusion. Just a fun.

[B]

Right? No, absolutely.

[C]

And.

[B]

And, and Taylor loves illusions.

[A]

She does.

[B]

And we've talked about that in a number of her songs. And so yeah. Did they catch you having far too much fun?

[C]

Right.

[B]

And you know, this is. Taylor has written songs and I mean, you know, girls just want to have fun. Right. I mean that's, that's a trope that Taylor has also used. Come now this next line Is really important. Come with me. When they see us, they'll run. Something wicked this way comes, right?

[A]

Macbeth illusion.

[B]

Macbeth.

[A]

Illusion of the witches.

[B]

Right? This is what the Weird Sisters, the three witches around the cauldron. Around the cauldron. Eye of new toe of frog.

[A]

Double, double, toil and trouble.

[B]

Cauldron burn and fire bubble. Right, that famous scene. So she is saying when they see us, they'll run, right?

[A]

She will guide.

[B]

In other words, she's saying, again, this is a reference to. As with the song who's Afraid of Little Old Me?

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

Taylor being a witch. But guess what? Witches have power. And so, you know, you should be afraid. What's the line from? From?

[A]

Well, you should be.

[B]

Well, you should be. Right? So, you know, you should be. So this is. And. And of course, wicked is also a reference to another story of witches.

[A]

Two witches that are friends.

[B]

Two witches that are friends.

[A]

Well, one is not really a witch.

[B]

Is now. We now just got the second movie.

[A]

The second movie, it's called. What is it called? Wicked. Wow.

[B]

And of course, this is the great Broadway show. This is one of the great, greatest Broadway shows of all time. And so the. The. This is the witch theme, right? Which is. You want to cancel a witch? Guess what?

[A]

What?

[B]

Witches have some power.

[A]

Not so true.

[B]

Right. So. And then we get straight into the chorus. Good thing I Like My Friends cancelled.

[A]

Good thing I Like My Friends cancelled. That's how I listened to it originally. I was like, oh, she really. You know, when you don't understand it, you really just think like, she's just kind of like, I don't know, it's a little cringe if you don't understand the full story.

[B]

It is a little. I agree with that. This song.

[A]

Good Thing I Like My Friends Cancelled.

[C]

Right. And.

[B]

But in fact, what she's saying is that. Guess what, Blake Lively is my friend.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

She's not saying, I'm dissing you, Blake Lively. She's saying, as we'll see, I'm not only standing by you, I'm kind of gonna show you the ropes in how you fight back.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

And guess what? This whole song is about the ropes. One of the ropes that she. That Taylor uses. Right, Taylor, this is a rope. This is a rope.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is one of the ropes. And of course. So I like them clothed in Gucci and in scandal like my whiskey sour and poison thorny flowers. Welcome to my underworld where it gets quite dark. Okay, so this is the underworld is where the dead go. Right? This is back in the ancient Myths. Right. We're going. If we're talking about Greek myth references. Right. This is what we're talking about.

[A]

Yes, we are. Well, I just saw Hadestown, even so, you know.

[B]

Yes. You went to New York City.

[A]

New York City, visited friends, saw Hadestown.

[B]

And she performed in Hadestown.

[A]

I did. I did. My high school did a production of it, and I was very happy. I built the. I got to be the master carpenter on the set.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Very happy about that. And I was also in the ensemble. I was one of the workers. Yeah, it was. I mean, the ensemble is so small. It is a very interesting musical because the worker corps, it's. There's. There's no ensemble. The worker corps is just, like. It's the dancers and chorus that tell the story. This is very interesting.

[B]

And the story is about the journey of a person into hell.

[A]

Right.

[B]

To rescue them.

[A]

Just that. Not. So people get the wrong idea and think that I'm just like, you know, like, obviously, I'm just like, me. I'm just, like, meant for the stage. And, like, obviously, you know, like, not. Not every time I'm on the ensemble. Like, usually I'm, like, one of the leads. But I just want to make sure people.

[B]

All right, Leah. Michelle.

[A]

Yeah. I just want to. People used to say that I looked like her.

[B]

Oh, you're going all Glee.

[A]

But I just wanted to say, like, just so people know that, like, I'm not always in the ensemble. Like, sometimes. Like, sometimes I am a Lee. And that's just something important that I just, like, want you guys to know. Like, I am talented. Like, I do. I. I just want to say it was competitive that year. It was competitive. I just want to say that.

[B]

And. And I just want to say all.

[A]

Of my rejections have been redirections. There you go.

[B]

Right? It's all a. Amen. Step is two steps up, one step.

[A]

Back, one step down.

[B]

Right. But.

[A]

And. Yeah.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, back to the song.

[A]

Back to the song.

[B]

At least you know exactly who your friends are.

[A]

They're the one with matching scars.

[B]

Right. So. Matching scars. So again, this is. Guess what, Blake. I. I have scars. Yeah, you got scars.

[A]

I've got scars. Another thumbs up. The NSA agent really agrees with me. The NSA agent thinks I'm talented.

[B]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

I'm telling you, it's Peter Thiel on the other side of the screen giving us thumbs up. This is so bizarre.

[B]

It is bizarre.

[A]

And please tell me you guys are seeing these, please.

[B]

Anyway, let's get back the one matching scarf. So now we Go to the second verse or. Yeah. It's easy to love when you're popular.

[A]

It's easy to love you when you're popular. Excuse you.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

Yeah, sorry. We still believe in pronouns in this house. Please. It's easy to love you when you're popular. The optics click everyone pro spurs one single drop, you're off the raw stir Tone deaf and hot. Let's fucking off her now.

[B]

This is again, this is a great lyric. First of all, as I noted on.

[A]

As you noted, pop mystery pro. Go check it out.

[B]

Popular.

[A]

Popular is a song in wiki gonna be popular.

[B]

So again, not the kind of thing that Taylor does by accident.

[A]

No, she's not.

[B]

And one of the points.

[A]

Well, okay. And I'm just realizing this now. The way that the line is structured. Popular. She doesn't just say popular. She says popular like the way that Galinda says it in wicked popular.

[B]

Well, and this is one of the points that Tess made that we kind of ended up having a discussion on is that possibly Taylor feels some guilt here because the reason this. One of the reasons the Blake Lively thing blew up so big is because she was friends with Taylor, right. And the parties involved. Justin.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Actually wanted her deposed, right. Asked for a deposition of Taylor because he also wanted to make this a bigger deal. Right? And so this gets to the whole point of the Masked Crusaders because the superheroes, when you. One of the main tropes in superhero stories is that the people around the superheroes are at risk, are at risk.

[A]

Because of how popular they are.

[B]

Because. And it's also the soup. Like Superman's invulnerable, right? So he can be reached, however, through Lois Lane.

[A]

Yeah, you just threaten Lois Lane. And Superman's like, oh, no, don't do that.

[B]

Right? Because you can't like point a gun and say at Timberman and say, you have to do this.

[A]

Right? He's just going to be like, lol.

[B]

Yeah, do it. But you can point Lois Lane. Yes. This, this is again, a, a running extended metaphor that she is doing here. In fact, she's got multiple ones. So the, the. The optics click. Everyone prospers. But one single drop, you're off the roster, right? So everyone loves you when you're popular, then you can make movies and right. Everyone gets rich off you. Right? And everyone gets rich as a tailor. But a single drop, you're off the roster. Now, you know, in. This is basically kind of a football metaphor, one would assume, right? If you drop one single dropped ball and you are thrown off the football roster. Right. So in other words, one mistake, even though, you know, everybody drops the ball, you know, at some point, and then. Tone deaf and hot. Let's fucking offer is a quote. She is saying this is how the person, the woman gets described. Right. And of course, Blake was criticized for being a bit tone deaf in how she went about promoting this very serious movie. Right, Right. But Taylor herself has often get accused of being tone deaf. In fact, people have accused this album of having tone deaf parts. And so she's just, you know, and you know, I'm not saying you. Everyone has a right to, you know, criticize Taylor if you think she said something tone deaf. Right. I mean, obviously if you're a celebrity and you become a billionaire and, you know, sooner or later you're gonna say tone deaf things and. Yeah, but again, you know, as off hurt. This is the. Again, cancellation leads to death or the cancellation is death metaphor.

[A]

Well, in the word drop can mean multiple things, right? You drop a movie, you can drop a song, or you can just drop something, you know, or you. You can just, you know, make a mistake.

[B]

You know, you could also say a drop of poison.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

Right. Because we've heard about the poison thorny flowers.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

So it's very common in fairy tales for a drop of poison to poison the entire thing. Right. And now, did you make a joke Only a man could.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, pretty standard Taylor Swift reference.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know the man. Right.

[A]

Were you just too smug for your own good?

[C]

Same thing.

[B]

Right. Or bring a tiny violin.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To a knife fight.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Okay, well that's certainly a mistake that's going to end in your. If you bring a metaphor. And again, what's a tiny violin? It is.

[A]

It's you singing your own pity.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, dur.

[B]

Just a little. Little pity fest.

[A]

It's true.

[B]

And her. His point. Her point is, you know, Blake or whoever. Yes. You got canceled. You feel pity for yourself. You know, get over that because this is a knife fight and that little tiny violin is not going to defend you. And again, this is another metaphor of the violence and potential death associated with cancellation. That is true now, baby, that all ends tonight. Right, so again, this gets back to Antonia's point that the fourth line. The fourth line is a switch. Right? Just like the fourth line, beware the wrath of mass crusaders in the first verse was a switch to. I'm telling you, beware the ma. Right in the fourth line here, baby, that all ends tonight.

[A]

Oh, that's so true.

[B]

I'm telling you, I'm telling Blake the lines tonight because I'm going to show you how you fight back.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. That's where the song switches over to a personal. To. To.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And we'll get to that. And so then.

[A]

Or to Justin Baldoni.

[B]

Right. And then we get. Right. Yeah. It could be. If it's a threat to, you know, you should be. Right. Same threat that is in who's afraid of little old Me?

[A]

Yeah. Lock, lock.

[B]

So we now get the repeat of the chorus. Right. So not, you know, the Gucci and the underworld and all that.

[A]

Although she does slip a honey in there. Honey, welcome to my underworld, honey. It's the next song on the album.

[B]

Right. So now we go to the bridge. They stood by me before my exoneration.

[C]

Right.

[B]

When finally everything was right, they believed I was innocent. So, you know, this is presumably Taylor saying, this happened to me. Right. This was the Kim Kardashian release, the edited video that made it look like Taylor was. Was lying about agreeing to the lyrics in the song. Sorry to have the big digression here, but I know there's a lot, you know, that most of the people who follow Taylor Swift know this reference. Right. And many people believed this. But her friends, as they sometimes say, right. It's only in storms, the darkest times, that you find out who your friends are. Right. And some of her friends stood by her then. And then, of course, she was exonerated when the truth came out that the full video showed that Taylor had not, you know, given permission to use this particular lyric.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so I'm not here for judgment.

[A]

No.

[B]

Right. So again, she's not. Because Taylor has gone through this.

[A]

She's not here for judgment.

[B]

She's not here.

[A]

It's hard to cancel.

[B]

Right. She's not here. Judge Blake. She is here. But if you. And then we go again to the fourth line. But if you can't be good, then just be better at it. Right. So now she's just making the strong statement, guess what, you know is gonna happen to everybody? And then the next line. Everybody's. Everyone's got bodies in the attic. Yeah, right again. Dead bodies. But the point is, this is the.

[A]

Bodies they're hiding or bodies they've put away.

[B]

Right. Skeletons in the closet, things that they did wrong in their lives.

[A]

But the attic is very interesting because the attic is where you put old things, you know?

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's not that you're necessarily hiding them. It's just that you have gotten past them. Right. Taylor Swift isn't hiding her fact that she the fact that she's gotten canceled, she doesn't try to hide it. She's writing about it here in a very popular song. She is, you know, putting it in the attic. She's just laying it to rest.

[B]

This is I Got Scarlet Letters. Trust me, mine's better.

[C]

Right.

[A]

The point is, I think the line, or took somebody's man is very interesting.

[B]

Right. So that's. That's.

[A]

Deal with that.

[B]

Or took somebody's man.

[A]

Like, why include that specifically?

[B]

It's a very interesting question. You know, Taylor had made a point in the teenage love triangle in Folklore. Right. That she wanted to be empathetic to August. Right. That August. In other words, what she's saying is that just.

[A]

Well, I mean, she's been in the situation. Getaway car.

[B]

Not all the people who are accused of taking someone's man.

[A]

Yeah. Like, Sabrina Carpenter actually took them. Right, right. And the man never gets blamed. It's always the woman's fault. Like, maybe, like, I don't know. Keep it in your freaking pants and put a little lock on it.

[B]

Well, and this goes back to the second song on the album.

[C]

Ah.

[A]

Elizabeth Taylor.

[B]

Elizabeth Taylor, because.

[A]

Very famously promiscuous.

[B]

Accused of taking the husband of Debbie Reynolds away from the father of Carrie Fisher. Eddie Fisher.

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[B]

Right. So. But as we heard in our episode discussing that, where we happen to have. The great.

[A]

The great.

[B]

Ben Mankiewicz explained to us.

[A]

Very wonderful.

[B]

That marriage was on its last legs. It was a marriage that came about because they both lost someone very, very close to him.

[A]

Yeah, Right.

[B]

And because Eddie Fisher was friends with Elizabeth Taylor's husband who died in the plane crash. Right. So that's. That's how they bonded. So. And again, I. Other thing I like about this song again, honey, refers to the next song. We had back references.

[A]

Well, yes. The entire album. I mean, they said. I mean, we've mentioned this so many times on this podcast by now. But. But explicitly. Shellbach and. And Mark. Oh, my Lord, what's his face? The Swedish dudes.

[B]

Max.

[A]

Max Martin. Jesus. The Swedish dudes that are, you know, very talented. You know, they're not just white guys with long hair.

[B]

Two of the most successful songwriters in. In history.

[A]

Yeah, that. Anyway. But yeah, they. They said explicitly that they love the storytelling on Folklore.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So, you know, they want songs to talk to each other.

[B]

Right, they do. And. And. And, you know, as we've seen on this album, Taylor has a song like Father Figure, which talks to a completely different album. A song on a completely different album. You know, getaway Car.

[A]

And, yeah, talking to all of her eras. They're referencing all of the eras that she's gone through.

[B]

We'll take you by the hand and soon you'll learn the art of never getting caught.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So again, this is. I'm going to show you the. You know, how you deal with cancellation and how you become a person who's impervious to. To cancellation. And now we get the repeat of the chorus again, which is pretty much what we've already heard, right? Except, let's see. I like my friends canceled and then canceled. I salute you.

[A]

Right.

[B]

If you're too. If you're much too much to handle.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like my whiskey sour. I like it. And poison thorny flowers. I love it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, let's go. Now, here's interesting. We're at the very end of the song.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she's introduced, and sometimes she just wraps things up with the chorus or repetition or whatever it is, but she goes, now can you see my infamy loves company?

[A]

That is true.

[B]

Right? So now this is interesting. The phrase is misery loves company.

[A]

Do you have, like, a saw? Piece of sandpaper? Yeah, sandpaper.

[B]

You're losing the thread here. You're losing the plot.

[A]

Fine. How do you know that phrase? You're crazy. Anyway. Love you, dad. Can't you see my infamy love story?

[B]

I know it comes to shock to you, but before there were Gen Z kids, people had phrases that they used.

[A]

No, they didn't.

[B]

It's amazing.

[A]

No, they did not.

[B]

I give you guys credit for.

[A]

You guys had like, that's pretty peachy. That's swell. I know. I was watching. I was watching. Welcome to Derry. The. The Stephen King kind of like the spin off of it. It's really freaking good. It's so amazing. If you're a horror lover, watch it yesterday. I love it anyway. But they say, like, oh, that's so peachy. Oh, that's swell. What the hell are you talking about, bro? That's just like, one I. My favorite thing ever is, like, in. In the Regency area, like, for little women, they would say like, oh, that's capital. And that would be like. That's like. That's like. And they were discouraged from saying that because that was like, oh, it's slang. Oh, that's capital. That's capital. What are you.

[C]

That's.

[B]

That's like. Yes. Well, you're talking leaping back to the Victorian age.

[A]

It's so interesting that they had these little cute words that they thought were so bad in.

[B]

In Shakespeare's day. They like to use the word Zounds.

[A]

I know.

[C]

They did.

[B]

Yes, they did.

[A]

Sounds. I saw that. Which is bizarre as well.

[B]

A short form of.

[A]

Of God's wounds. Yeah, God's wounds.

[B]

Right. And of course, presumably, I mean, Jesus on the cross. Right. So. So, yes, but it was.

[A]

We should bring that back. Yeah, let's bring back. Zounds. Zounds. Can't you see My infinity loves coven. Zounds. Oh, my gosh.

[B]

And so. But Taylor has switched here. This is from misery loves company to infamy loves company. So what Taylor is saying is I'm not miserable about this. I'm wearing this as the badge of honor again. It's the. It's a scarlet letter. A. And mine's. Look, Mine's better. Right?

[A]

Yeah. From New Romantics. They're talking to each other, right?

[B]

Exactly. She's. She's saying, I'm wearing this. Right.

[A]

Proudly.

[B]

I'm. It's. I'm glad to be infamous. She's glad right now they.

[A]

She wishes everybody was infamous.

[B]

Right. And then she expands on this idea. Now they've broken you like they've broken me.

[A]

The lock in. But a shattered glass is a lot more sharp.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So just like this pen, you.

[B]

You break me. Turns out again. And this gets back to the whole idea of you come. I'm a witch, you come for me. Guess what? You're gonna regret it. You sh. You know who's afraid a little on me? You.

[A]

And you should be.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Lock in.

[B]

Right, so.

[A]

And sharp witted too, you know, more to write about.

[B]

I understand. My impression of this song when I first heard it was not positive.

[A]

No, negative.

[B]

Because it just seemed again, like another diatribe. Like the diatribe.

[A]

What a good. What a good word should bring back. Diatribe. You never hear that anymore. There's that Hozier song, which is a great song, but.

[B]

Yeah, again. So I think. And by the way, Taylor, if you are listening, if you are listening, I think some of your songs may be too subtle. Just a little, you know, we, We. We have.

[A]

There's a time and a place for some.

[B]

We have.

[A]

And that time was before Scary Movie, as Donald Glover says.

[B]

And, and. And a lot of this. We've gone through some of the songs here.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And some of them are not going to be obvious.

[A]

No, they're not going to be obvious.

[B]

They're not going to be obvious. And look, I appreciate this is. If you didn't know this was about Taylor Swift at all. In other words, if you just heard this song. Didn't know Taylor wrote it. Didn't know that Taylor was singing.

[A]

It would still be like you could tell what it was about. It's about something that is relatable, and you're trying to walk the total line.

[B]

This is an entertaining song. Right.

[A]

I'm trying to walk that line.

[B]

This is a banger, right? I mean, she has a really nice chorus. She used a lot of vocal inflection to really drive home.

[A]

But it seems that it's only a banger in the technical sense. Right. Because for a lot of people, some of these songs are not hitting. Right.

[B]

Right. And I'm just. Yes. And I'm saying this song may be. I realized that once we point it out to you, it's not subtle.

[A]

It's not.

[B]

She just repeats that. This is about Blake Lively, like, over and over, seven or eight different ways.

[A]

She's like, this is about Blake Lively, Blake Lively. It's okay that you were cancelled. And that's the song right now.

[B]

Anyway. That was just. That was just an aside.

[A]

So we love her and we appreciate her. However.

[B]

No, no, look, I. I think that.

[A]

But there's a difference, you know, truly, between, you know, and look, I think.

[B]

Yeah. That is the question. Does a song stand alone if you don't understand all the subtext? And the answer is, well, for someone who doesn't know anything about Taylor at all. Yes.

[A]

Sometimes you have to pick a side. Right. Do you want a pop song that can appeal as an area to the masses? Right. You can listen to it and there's some, you know, little stuff. But. But it's, you know, like songs like Shake It Off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, do you want a song like that, or do you want a very specific song, like, you know, all too.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You can't just choose the middle.

[B]

Well, and by the way, I do appreciate that Taylor tries a lot of different things.

[A]

She does. That is also true. She tries a lot of different things.

[B]

I don't want to hold the truth.

[A]

No, no. This is art. We have to all remember that. This is not. This is. This is art. Right. There's nothing completely objective. There's nothing bad. Good. It's art. Right. We can think it's bad, Somebody else can think it's bad, and we think it's good, or somebody else can think it's good, but at the end of the day, it's art. Right. It's not like a moral proclamat.

[B]

And Taylor herself said, I think the first week this album dropped. She's not the art police.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We're Not. We're not the art police.

[A]

Well, as long as it exonerates Blake. In my mind, that would be the. That would be the use of this song.

[B]

Yeah. And I think that in this case, since one of the goals was exonerated, was pro Blake.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And clearly a lot of people didn't get.

[A]

Yes, exactly.

[B]

A lot of people didn't get that. We can appreciate that there's this whole subtext. It's very coherent. The running thing of death, the running thing of witches. All the things that she's doing is all good stuff. But if the goal is to be supportive of Blake Lively, perhaps she's failed at that, then maybe it could have been a little more obvious.

[A]

When the holidays start to feel a bit repetitive, reach for a Sprite Winter.

[B]

Spiced cranberry and put your twist on tradition.

[A]

A bold cranberry and winter spice flavor fusion Sprite Winter spice Cranberry is a refreshing way to shake the things up this sipping season. And only for a limited time. Sprite, obey your thirst.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah, Right.

[B]

And now, look, I get it. She's also trying to write a universal song.

[A]

I just want to say, though, that, you know, infamy company, Lively, they all rhyme. So she could have done that a little bit. They wouldn't have been a perfect rhyme, but, you know.

[B]

Well, in fact, she could have used the word lively. That wouldn't have been hard, right?

[A]

It wouldn't have been hard.

[B]

It's look and look. Taylor, sometimes you're very obvious sometimes, Right? You had, you know, the key to open my thighs. Right? We're not.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Can you please stop doing that?

[A]

I'm so sorry.

[B]

I have no idea how annoying you are. It's like the most annoying.

[A]

Oh, my God. I'm sorry.

[B]

Because she's taking this pen and she keeps banging it. I just want people to see if you can't.

[A]

It's a little bit emaciated. But it was emaciated before. It had jacket. It had a jacket top. It was broken, it was cracked.

[B]

So I think this song is actually a very good lesson in all the different ways you can put running themes in and underlying messages in. And I think everyone does have to ask themselves, is this too subtle?

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

And look, I've written a lot. You've written a lot.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

You know, we. You don't want to be too obvious, Right. The point of.

[A]

You want to be tasteful.

[B]

Right? Well, and it's always, remember, tactful showing, not telling.

[A]

Show, not tell.

[B]

Show, not tell.

[A]

But don't but make sure that it's not, you know, hiding something. Make sure that it's not. What's that quote that you use? Right. If I put something in, it's only because it's. So now you're fidgeting with the top, you're breaking a bunch of plastic. You see, he just completely freaking. Just absolutely emaciates me in front of our entire audience, and he's absolutely, he's just tearing this plastic apart apart. Oh my God. And then the freaking psychiatrist was like, oh, I wonder where your ADHD comes from. That's so funny. Hahaha. And then they, they wrote on my evaluation, father displays inattentive little symptoms. That's what they did. Well, it's okay. I want to, I want to just say if anybody ever is like, there's more autism now. There's more ADHD now. No, there's not.

[B]

Have you ever.

[A]

It's just because now people, people don't know what Einstein was like to talk to.

[B]

I would have been diagnosed as it.

[A]

Have you ever had a conversation with your father and he just turns out like he, like. I don't know if he's allowing this to share, but just as an interesting fact, I was at the John Mulaney Stand up the other night. One of my friends took me and he has a whole bit where he's like, my father is probably autistic, and that's why he's so cold and mean. During my childhood, when he asked me, what are your toys doing all strewn out? He was probably just genuinely curious because he's autistic. He was probably so specific in what he would talk to me about and only, you know, engaged with me when it was on a shared subject of interest. Because he's autistic.

[B]

The point here is, what is the point that, you know, it's okay to.

[A]

Get canceled at the end?

[B]

Well, no, the point was, unless for something crazy, you have to when you're writing. And this is true for fiction and nonfiction, but it's more true for fiction. How obvious are you going to be? Am I going to tell you the theme of this?

[A]

And normally have somebody who has no idea what the hell you're talking about, read it over. Right. They can assess subtlety. I think that she has a circle of people who are familiar with how she writes. Have somebody who's unfamiliar. That's what our writing teachers at my school tell us. Have somebody that's, that's. Or, you know, authors will tell you. Have somebody that's unfamiliar with your writing, read it over. Have somebody that you don't know that well, but you're. You know, they'll read your stuff, but it's like they're an acquaintance or like a not close friend. Have them read it over. They will be able to assess stuff.

[B]

Like this, give actionable advice here. And I think that you try different things. That's the other thing. And I think that obviously, you know, as Taylor herself said, you have to write 100 songs before you write the first good one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And of course, everyone has to find their own style. Some people write very obviously.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And some people write very subtly. Right. And that works for different people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. And I think that I tend to.

[A]

Be on the obvious side. I mean, there's some subtlety usually, but it's like. I just don't think that there's. I think subtlety is great, but I think at the end of the day, I think being obvious will get what you want. I mean, being obvious in your language and your themes are two different things. Right. I don't use obvious language, but I use obvious themes. Like, it's pretty clear what I'm talking.

[B]

I also.

[A]

He. I get that from him, I'm sure.

[B]

Yeah. And. And I think here's a new, you know, famous writer. I think that if you go to the fourth episode.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That we did. Which is on the song Mastermind. Right. I'm only cryptic and Machiavellian because I care. Right.

[A]

She puts a lot of care into her lyrics. This is her job.

[B]

And. And the stuff that looks cryptic. Right. So the point is that when she puts specificity in one of her songs. Right. Whether it's something wicked, this way comes a specific reference or, you know, cloaked in Gucci. Right. The point is they're not randomly chosen specific details or specific quotes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They are thematically relevant and often are part of a running theme, running symbol, running metaphor. And this is something that if you want to be a great fiction writer, you're gonna have to do.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

And in that episode, I go through the to be or not. The first five lines of the to be or not to be speech and show. This is exactly what. What Shakespeare did. Right. What looks to be, on the surface, a meditation on suicide. To be or not to be.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Is in fact a. A foreshadow of the ending of the play and in fact, a discussion of the choices that Hamlet faces in terms of whether he gets revenge or not. Right, Right. So it operates at two different levels, and that's fine. His audience was very I mean, some of his audience were very sophisticated, right, because they went to grammar school and all they did was learn the figures of speech and storytelling and classical poetry, right? So. That's. That's all we got to say. Yeah, that's all we got to say.

[A]

Classic poetry, figures of speech, yada, yada, yada, yada.

[B]

Yeah, And. And the hero's journey.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

The, the, the. The symbolic.

[A]

The idea that you go into the other world, right, and then you come out and you help people with the elixir as, as. Oh, my gosh, what's his face puts it. Dan Harmon, Joseph Campbell. Oh, that guy Dan Harmon. Dan Harmon has his own little story circle the elixir, right?

[B]

But Joseph Campbell's point here with Thousand Faces is that the full hero's journey, you know, you start in the normal world, you go to special world, right?

[A]

And Taylor is talking to somebody after having gone through her own Heroes journey. Somebody who's in the middle of her hero's journey. Two Heroes Journeys Interlinked. Interlinked. Interlinked. Another good movie of Two Heroes Journeys, you know, 19. What is it? 2048. Yeah. Blade Runner, 2048. Two Heroes Journeys InterLinked.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Anyway, you guys should watch that movie. Well, that's all we have for today. That's all the time we have for you folks. So I'll see you on the flippity flip. What about you, Joe?

[B]

Well, listen to Tess Barker's mystery pod.

[A]

We love her.

[B]

You'll learn a lot more.

[A]

Her last name is Barker.

[B]

Tess Barker. I wrote it down. She's an investigative journalist who loves podcasts.

[A]

Is that okay?

[B]

I think so.

[A]

You do got to work on your handwriting. I'm just kidding. My handwriting is also bad. Did you know that three days ago somebody was like, oh, my God, Antonia, is that your handwriting?

[B]

Well, we both have dysgraphia. I wasn't diagnosed with it, but I suffer from it, too.

[A]

Yeah, he suffers. He really does. That's why he. Hey, he won awards for voice typing. I mean, like, he got a whole iPad out of this frickin competition. The iPad. I used to play Minecraft and watch and listen to Taylor Swift songs while I did, which sparked my love for it. So in the end, it was really his dysgraphia that got us both into Taylor Swift.

[B]

There you go. Well, indeed. That is a hero's journey story. Wow. Where what seems.

[A]

And in a way, it was also Tim Cook who. Who ran the iPads. Perhaps not at that time.

[B]

I did injure my hand. He did and that forced me to use voice dictation software early on. And when I did my blog, it made my blog more conversational because I was talking.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so I. We always say.

[A]

I know all my teachers say that my writing feels very conversational.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They give me good grades, though.

[B]

Well, no, no, no. I think most people's writing. We'll make this the start feels tip. Most people's writing would be better if it was more conversational and most people's conversational language would be better if it was a little more formal.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A little more intentional with the word choice.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So I think that it is again, what seems to be a low point in one's life can turn out to be the moment that changed everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To help you find the path you're supposed to be on.

[A]

Right, Right. Right.

[B]

Good night.

[A]

Goodbye.

[B]

And Doug, here we have the limu emu in its natural habitat helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds of with liberty mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug. Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us. Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you [e-mail] Liberty Liberty Liberty Liberty savings Very unwritten by Liberty mutual insurance company and affiliates excludes Massachusetts the holidays mean more travel, more shopping, more time online and more personal info and more places that could explain expose you more to identity theft. But lifelock monitors millions of data points per second. If your identity is stolen, our u. S based restoration specialists will fix it guaranteed or your money back. Don't face drained accounts, fraudulent loans or financial losses alone. Get more holiday fun and less holiday worry with lifelock save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com podcast terms apply.