← Decoding Taylor Swift
Decoding Taylor Swift
Taylor-Travis lovefest & how Tortured Poets Department led to Life of a Showgirl & our podcast | #10
01:03:26
In this episode of Decoding Taylor Swift, Joe and Toni dive deep into the title track of The Tortured Poets Department, unpacking Swift’s rich use of allusion, irony, and hyperbole. From Dylan Thomas to Patti Smith to the Chelsea Hotel, Taylor...
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- [00:01]
A
Hi, I'm Joe Rome and I'm his daughter Toni.
- [00:05]
B
Welcome to Decoding Taylor Swift where you'll learn the storytelling tools Swift uses that make her a modern day Shakespeare, but.
- [00:15]
A
Can make you a better communicator so you can drive your mission and build your tribe.
- [00:19]
B
Rolling Stone magazine put both me and Swift on its list of 100 people changing America. So I know that the most successful social change makers are the best storytellers.
- [00:31]
A
This podcast will transform how you think about Swift's songs and give you the life changing tools to lead, connect and change the world.
- [00:42]
B
Alrighty, so this is episode 10 and.
- [00:48]
A
Return of the Dead Eye.
- [00:52]
B
That would be number six if we were doing Star Wars.
- [00:55]
A
That's why I said dead, cause it's number 10.
- [00:57]
B
Ah. So we just heard the she and I just. Tony and I just watched the amazing two hour interview of Taylor Swift on New Heights by Travis and Jason Kelsey. And we're going to put that discussion at the end of this because we want to talk about the Tortured Poets Department song. The title song of the album, Tortured Poets of Art, which actually fits very nicely with the transition into the next album, which is now we know the life of a showgirl.
- [01:38]
A
Can you say like without further ado or something?
- [01:40]
B
Without further ado. The one and only Tony Rome.
- [01:50]
A
Oh, hello there. Why, I didn't see you. Welcome to the Tortured Poets Department. And today we're proud to discuss with you the inspiration for this podcast, the magnum opus of Taylor Swift's collection, the longest catalog of songs, 14 of which made the top Billboard 100. Today for you, we're going to be analyzing that. And that's beautiful because all of us, everyone in this room, everyone in the world, we're all a little bit tortured inside. And some of us are poets. And if you're like me, you go to a college where there are departments. And if you're all three of those, well, welcome to the Tortured Poets Department. That was the. That was a bit.
- [02:41]
B
So we're going to talk today about the song Tortured Poets Department. It's tough being a poet.
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A
It's tough.
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B
It's tough being a poet.
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A
You're really tortured when you're a poet.
- [02:51]
B
And Tortured Poets Department is the song that was the inspiration for the title of this because Taylor talks about. And we'll get to talks about who is going to decode you.
- [03:04]
A
Yeah.
- [03:05]
B
And we're going to talk about why Taylor might be feeling tortured.
- [03:11]
A
Yeah, there's a lot to be tortured about in this day and age. You know, sometimes when you Hop on your private jet. It's just like you just remember the crushing endlessness of it all.
- [03:20]
B
And this song comes as this. This album was released in the middle of the Eras tour.
- [03:29]
A
In the middle of the Eras tour. Yeah.
- [03:32]
B
At the very height, you might say, of her success and fame. The most successful tour of all time. And yet she is feeling tortured and.
- [03:43]
A
Right, guys, the crime in D.C. you know what the real crime in D.C. is? Is that the other day when I was at Jenny's ice cream, I paid $7 for a small ice cream and $7 for my friend. And in total, there were taxes enough to make it almost $20.
- [04:03]
B
That is.
- [04:05]
A
That is pretty genuinely fucking disgusting.
- [04:07]
B
It's definitely tortured you. I can see how much it tortured you.
- [04:10]
A
I'm really upset. And then when I went on the date last night, the ice cream was $23. It was literally despicable. They charged me. They charged me $1.35 extra for a goddamn waffle cone, which is the bare minimum of how you're supposed to do ice cream. Like, do they expect me to, like, eat it off of a pile of shit? Like, what do they want me to do?
- [04:29]
B
I cannot believe charging for the extra cone.
- [04:31]
A
I was actually appalled at that. I mean, like, because the ice cream itself was $7.45. And then they charged an extra for small. By the way, this is the smallest size they had. And then for the extra $1.35 for the waffle cone was actually ridiculous. Like, I can't. Like, I actually. Did you know that there's a department of dressing and sauces in the United States government?
- [04:54]
B
I did not know that.
- [04:54]
A
I think maybe it's not the United States government, but they were talking about it on John Oliver the other week probably a few months ago, and. And I think that they're the closest department that can do something about that.
- [05:04]
B
As you know, speaking of government agencies, there are two different Tortured Poet departments.
- [05:11]
A
There are. In Taylor's mind, I just freaking annoyed at this freaking ice cream. Well, look, the ice cream was good, though. You should go to Jenny's. Jenny's. Sponsored us. Sponsor us. Jenny's. Sorry, what?
- [05:21]
B
This entire album, yes. Is somewhat different for her. And in fact, she said, if I can quote. And by the way, we did one song already in the. In the course of our previous night episode. We did. But D. I love Him. And she said about the song Fortnite, which was one of the number one songs that came out of Tortured Poet's.
- [05:48]
A
Department.
- [05:50]
B
Is a song that exhibits a lot of the common themes that run through this album, one of which is fatalism, longing, pining away, lost dreams. It's a very fatalistic album in that there are lots of very dramatic lines about life or death. I love you, it's ruining my life. There are very hyperbolic, dramatic things to say. It's that kind of album. I don't even remember if she used the word hyperbolic before. But the point is, as we discussed.
- [06:18]
A
I mean, it's no mistake that she's using it.
- [06:20]
B
She likes to use hyperbole. And she says there's a lot about this particular concept on Tortured Poets Department, what we do to our writers and our artists and our creatives. We put them through hell. We watch them, what they create, then we judge it. We love to watch artists in pain, often to the point where I think sometimes as a society, we provoke that pain and just watch what happens. All right, so that's sort of the mentality of the Tortured Poets Department album. And, you know, the actionable item of what she does in this particular song, and I think we've seen throughout her career, is she makes a lot of illusions.
- [07:02]
A
She does.
- [07:03]
B
She uses. Which are different than metaphors.
- [07:06]
A
They are. Illusion is when you refer to something outside your body of work, typically a very famous body of work or something in pop culture. But an illusion, like how.
- [07:17]
B
Well, Dylan Thomas, Patti Smith, the Chelsea.
- [07:20]
A
Hotel, or how I'm sitting in front of this Machiavelli book. 1 Niccolo Machiavelli, who she includes in a lot of her songs. And she included in Mastermind when she said she was Machiavellian.
- [07:32]
B
Right. I'm only cryptic in Machiavellian because I care. And there's no question that she likes to be cryptic.
- [07:40]
A
Yes.
- [07:41]
B
And something we've talked about before, we'll keep talking about. Cryptic things make you think more and more. Anytime you're forced to do more mental processing, the stuff sticks in your memory. And we're coming back again and again to the point of all of these lessons. The actionable item is you want to be as memorable as possible, because if people don't remember what you say, it doesn't matter what you say. Right. So there's many, many different of these memory tricks that were created by the great bards who sang their old, you know, heroic poems, you know, over the millennia. And so one of the memory tricks is to simply refer to something that's fairly well known. Sometimes it's not so well known, and it sends, you know, all of us to. To the. To the Google to find out who exactly is Dylan Thomas or why is the Chelsea Hotel so important?
- [08:37]
A
I know when I don't. When I don't think of Dylan Thomas immediately, it sends me into a rage, you know what I mean? That was an illusion. That was a joke because of Dylan Thomas famous poem. Just to explain that one.
- [08:50]
B
So. And it is worth noting that in the song, which we have not talked about, which is Fortnite, the video is a very bonkers video. Yeah, like, you know, probably half her videos are just over the top bonkers. But as she explains, she is imagining a government agency that actually tortures poets. Right. That's what that video is. And the doctors who are doing the torturing are played by Ethan Hawke, Dan Charles. But the point is that video was about a different tortured poets department than this song, which. And where she is chairman of the tortured poets department at a university where there are apparently tortured poets who are doing the teaching.
- [09:50]
A
Right, right.
- [09:51]
B
Which is why there's no apostrophe. She criticized, by the way, as happens since she wrote a whole album.
- [09:57]
A
I feel like at that point, I feel like that's like criticizing like friggin. I don't know Shakespeare about like using the wrong tense. Like I think he knows what he's talking about.
- [10:11]
B
Well, you have to understand the. The people who view themselves like stupid. The professional poets don't necessarily view pop songwriters as professional poets. But I think one of the points.
- [10:23]
A
Of this album, well, important to note that everybody that criticized her did not have a single Grammy. So there you go.
- [10:31]
B
I think the point of the podcast is she's a modern day Shakespeare. That she is in fact every bit a poet. And in fact, the great poetic bards.
- [10:42]
A
Famously sung their songs.
- [10:43]
B
They sang their songs, which is unre. Because the people who didn't get remembered were unsigned.
- [10:48]
A
Also, half of like Shakespeare's plays includes like a weird silly song that makes no sense, but it just is like. Yeah, I mean like even, even the Scottish play, even Macbeth has a silly song.
- [11:00]
B
Right. And the idea. And by the way, you know, lyrical poetry. Right. The word lyric, by the way, comes from the word lyre. L Y R E. These were poems that were played to a liar.
- [11:15]
A
Orpheus mentioned.
- [11:16]
B
All right, so let's just dive into this song because I, you know, let's. We, you know, as usual, this is. Her songs are very over the top. And this one begins, you left your typewriter at my apartment. Straight from the tortured poet's department.
- [11:35]
A
Sure. Yes. This is a song that's just like this. I mean, literally, if this Was if we talked about any figure of speech, this one would just be illusion because she's throwing like illusion, illusion. Illusion. Yeah. I mean, seriously.
- [11:47]
B
And I think some things I never say, like who uses typewriters anyway?
- [11:51]
A
Yeah. So true. And I also, I think this song just another thing about the tortured post department. I think what makes this song so interesting is that. Is that not only is she using illusion in this song, but she's creating a place, a thing, a concept that relates to her album, the tortured post department. She's alluding to that in this song. It's not a song about a place called the tortured post department. She's using the tortured post department as an illusion in the song because she's just. She likes to play around with figures of speech. And I just think that's a very creative thing to do. The.
- [12:28]
B
The album itself is accompanied by a poem, right. Which she signs at the end of the poem. The chairman of the tortured poetry.
- [12:37]
A
Right. All's fair in love and poetry.
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B
Right. So she is the chairman of the department of tortured poets.
- [12:43]
A
Right?
- [12:45]
B
So this is going to. This, this song, I think, gets to the issue of why she is tortured. Or so the next lines. But you're in self sabotage mode. Throwing spikes down on the road. But I've seen this episode and still loved the show. Who else decodes you? Right? So this is another bad boy she's going out with. I mean, she's going out with a boy she knows self sabotages, Right, Right. Throw spikes on the road and you know, one in a long line of apparently terrible drivers.
- [13:23]
A
Yeah.
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B
I mean, if you throw spikes on the road, right. This is like one of those.
- [13:27]
A
You pop your tires.
- [13:28]
B
Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is usually in a thriller, right? Someone's got spikes on the road and it rips the tires up. But then she says, and by the way, since we're don't want to ever forget the importance of the word but, right?
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A
We love a good butt.
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B
We love a good butt.
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A
Let's juicy.
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B
This opening of the song has two butts, but you're in self sabotage mode. Throwing spikes down on the but.
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A
I've seen this episode and still love the show.
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B
Right, so. Which, by the way, shows that you can throw two butts in a row.
- [13:56]
A
If you can even believe that there can be two butts in a row.
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B
And by the way, this is a song with five buts and 14 ands.
- [14:03]
A
That's beautiful.
- [14:04]
B
So it's ratio of buts to ands, which we talked about.
- [14:07]
A
What is it? 14 and what was the other number.
- [14:09]
B
Five divided by 14?
- [14:10]
A
Divided by 14. Stop. I can do that. That's about 30, 35%.
- [14:15]
B
There you go. Good. Good one. Yes, thank you.
- [14:17]
A
That was a guess. That was a guess.
- [14:19]
B
The point is that as I said.
- [14:21]
A
But I knew it had to be greater than a 30.
- [14:23]
B
No, I always want to repeat this most simple idea, that you need to use more buts and fewer ands in your writing. We talked about that when we were talking about but daddy, I love him. And the great singer songwriters, the great. The Beatles have an average ratio of butts to ands.
- [14:43]
A
27%.
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B
Yeah, the 27 or so. The Shakespeare had it again in the upper 20s. And Taylor's number, I guess has risen over the top.
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A
But soft anyway. I'm so sorry.
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B
Keep but soft through what light threw on yonder window break. Yes.
- [14:58]
A
Yeah. I can't believe I remembered that. Did I just like straight up quote Shakespeare? Did I put like a random esoteric Shakespeare quote out of my butt? Wait, high five.
- [15:07]
B
Very nice.
- [15:08]
A
Although what play is that from?
- [15:11]
B
That's Romeo and Juliet.
- [15:12]
A
Oh, right. Duh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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B
It's a balcony scene.
- [15:14]
A
Yes, it is. It is. I knew that. That's why I said it.
- [15:18]
B
But then she says so but I've seen this episode and still love the show. So she's describing another self sabotage. This mode he goes into as an episode in a show. Right. So she's turning her relationship into, let's say, a narrative poem.
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A
Right, right.
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B
And she did this by the also in blank space where she talked about these relationships as if this guy was nothing more than a blank space that she would fill in his name. So she is storifying this relationship, but she's also showing this is again her masochistic side, which is, okay, you're self sabotage mode. Again, seen this episode before. But I love the show which say I love you. I hate this idiotic self sabotage behavior. And then she says, who else decodes you?
- [16:19]
A
Yeah, I mean like who else? Yeah. Which is honestly a little bit of a manipulative thing to do. I mean like I'm sure she knows that. But it's like if you know somebody's faults and then you go up to them and say, like, you know what? Who else is going to accept these faults of yours? Like nobody.
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B
Right?
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A
No fucking buddy, as she says.
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B
Right. And who's gonna hold you like me? And who's gonna know you if not me? And so the point is, and that's where some we got the title.
- [16:46]
A
That's why I Think Canceled is gonna be about Matty Healy. Because, honestly, there's just, like, so much in this song. It's kind of her centric. I think Cancelled is gonna be him centric.
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B
And it's gonna be leaped ahead.
- [16:58]
A
Whatever.
- [16:59]
B
Well, look, we.
- [17:00]
A
As I said, we recorded this after we recorded the episod.
- [17:06]
B
We got very, very excited.
- [17:07]
A
We did. I did an improv thing. You guys are gonna love it. I actually predicted what the songs are gonna be, and then I sung some of them.
- [17:15]
B
That is. That is.
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A
I'm featured on the track as a creator.
- [17:18]
B
This is. This is episode 10.
- [17:21]
A
This is episode 10.
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B
But we're foreshadowing episode 11 in which my daughter has written.
- [17:27]
A
I actually did them on the spot.
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B
She's created, basically.
- [17:30]
A
You can even believe that I'm basically a professional songwriter and our audio engineer who works on songs. That said, some of my beats and melodies were good. So I've actually basically signed a deal.
- [17:42]
B
Absolutely. And the fact that we pay him has nothing to do with the fact.
- [17:46]
A
That he said maybe. And I think that's actually a compliment.
- [17:49]
B
Yeah. No. Episode 11 is basically a sizzle reel. It is of what the full album by Taylor could be, if only instead of Shellbach and Shell Drake, it was.
- [18:01]
A
Shell Tony and Shell Joe.
- [18:03]
B
Exactly. If only we had. If we had collaborated with Taylor, that's what the album would be like.
- [18:09]
A
I feel like I'm being, like, prejudiced against Swedes. Like, I don't know why they're naming their kids Shell so much. Oh, my God.
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B
Well, look, I just want to, you know, always want to heap immense praise on the fact that the two of the greatest songwriters in the English language alive today are actually Swedish. Swedish people.
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A
Fuck. We need to get on.
- [18:28]
B
That is just like, you know, wow.
- [18:30]
A
Well, it's probably because they have greater access to equity and education and. And health care.
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B
Well, I also think being outsiders, it's easier to look inside at someone else's culture and say, this is what you guys love. Maybe when you're in the culture, you might not be able to recognize.
- [18:47]
A
Although don't tell the United States that about the Middle east or they're going to do something again.
- [18:53]
B
So the point. But the other point is, because this is a song about tortured poets, is that she is saying, if you want to know me. Right, and who else decodes you? And who's going to hold you like me? And who's going to know you? So to know me, to know Taylor, you have to decode her. And that's why we titled podcast that's.
- [19:17]
A
Why we titled the podcast Decoding Taylor Swift. Because we know her well, we're trying.
- [19:21]
B
To know her close personal friend. And as we said, there's a lot of different meanings going on and there's a lot of ways of interpreting her songs. Keep calling them plays. But if you want to fully understand and know her, you have to understand how she uses the techniques of classical poetry.
- [19:38]
A
Right, Right.
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B
And that's one of the ones that we're talking about here. And speaking of which. So anyway, she uses a lot of illusions. Plus where she refers to.
- [19:47]
A
Oh my God, this is really meta what's happening.
- [19:51]
B
Very meta.
- [19:51]
A
This is like meta as hell.
- [19:53]
B
So let's get to the string of illusions that she has created for Boom, boom, Boom.
- [20:01]
A
Illusion, illusion, illusion.
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B
She stacks some illusions here.
- [20:04]
A
She stacks the. Can I do them? You please do Dylan Thomas. Rage, rage against the dying of the night.
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B
You have to sing. You're not. I laugh in your. You have to sing this part. I laughed in your face. I mean, it's toxic. She talks.
- [20:16]
A
But can you. But can you do it? Because I feel like you have more gravitas.
- [20:19]
B
Well, you sang the entire episode. 11.
- [20:21]
A
Oh my God. Seriously? And I made up the song by myself, right? Seriously. Come on.
- [20:26]
B
You made up the song by yourself?
- [20:27]
A
What am I? Frickin chop liver. What am I? Dylan Thomas.
- [20:30]
B
All right, I'm just kidding. So you're Dylan Thomas and I'm Patti Smith. In this case, I laughed in your face and said, you're not Dylan Thomas. I'm not Patti Smith. This ain't the Chelsea Hotel. We're modern idiots. And who's gonna hold you like me? Nobody. No fuckin buddy. Nobody. Banger.
- [20:52]
A
I believe that you wrote that and you meant every damn word.
- [20:56]
B
So what. What is she saying here when she's saying, you're not Dylan Thomas? I'm not Patti Smith. So. And this ain't the Chelsea Hotel, right? So now everyone's gotta. I mean, she knows most of her listeners. These are. You know, Dylan Thomas is from 56.
- [21:12]
A
Oh my God. Well, he's like ultimate tortured poet, which.
- [21:14]
B
Is why he is the ultimate tortured poet.
- [21:16]
A
He included it, right? His dad was dying. He wrote a whole poem about how he had to like, just like, do.
- [21:21]
B
Not go gentle into that good night. Old age should burn and rage the close of day. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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A
I didn't even look at the computer. I just know it because I'm just so tortured.
- [21:36]
B
This is the most famous poem that Dylan Thomas did.
- [21:39]
A
I think one of My favorites.
- [21:40]
B
Heard it and it's not very long, by the way. It surprised me. I looked it up. I was, oh, this is not long.
- [21:45]
A
No, I mean you can sort everything into like every, every Hogwarts Houses.
- [21:50]
B
He is, he is saying this poetry to his father saying, you know, don't go quietly down.
- [21:56]
A
Good men don't look at their deeds. And like a green light, something like that.
- [22:00]
B
So she's referencing Dylan Thomas, renowned Welsh poet, also renowned self destructive alcoholic. The classic alcoholic self destructive poet who famously went into a coma. He used to stay in the Chelsea Hotel.
- [22:17]
A
Right.
- [22:17]
B
As did a lot of people. That's Bob Dylan stayed there. There's a lot of famous people.
- [22:21]
A
So the meaning of what she's saying is basically clear. She's just being like, all right dude, like chill the fuck out. You're not Dylan Thomas.
- [22:27]
B
You're not Dylan Thomas.
- [22:28]
A
Yeah. You're friggin Matty Healy. And your band is named out of a decade you weren't even born in. So like let's chill out, guys.
- [22:36]
B
Exactly. And so now she. But she also says I'm not Patti Smith. So why would she say that?
- [22:41]
A
She would say that because. Well, Patti Smith is a. She's friggin baddie. She is a singer, songwriter. She's a poet.
- [22:55]
B
Published poet.
- [22:55]
A
A public. Yeah, Published poet from the 70s. In the 19. In 1975.
- [23:01]
B
Still alive today though.
- [23:02]
A
She's still alive. She's really cool. She's famous for being very into her craft.
- [23:07]
B
She's kind of punky.
- [23:08]
A
Punky. She's like punk. She's like, yeah, punk. She's, she's. She's like. She was one of the earlier people to kind of. Especially earlier female person to like kind of shed gender, be like. I don't know, I don't really like she moved away from wanting to be called like a female artist and just artist.
- [23:25]
B
Well, and she's also clearly a singer who saw her work as poetry.
- [23:30]
A
She did, right? She was huge. And obviously I'm sure Taylor is under no illusion that she's like, you know, underground and like special and you know, she's like a truly tortured poet. So she's saying kind of here, like, I know that I'm not really a tortured poet. Like I have a private jet and I'm like a billionaire, but like I still do poetry. It's like, you know, and I think.
- [23:54]
B
The mystery, you know, we will get more into this. Why is she a tortured poet?
- [23:58]
A
Right.
- [23:59]
B
She titled the whole album Tortured Poet. And yet she.
- [24:02]
A
I mean every person is Tortured. So it's not like.
- [24:05]
B
And I think that you can be rich and tortured.
- [24:09]
A
Elon Musk is clearly tortured. A tortured man. He has things going on up there.
- [24:14]
B
Well, I think that.
- [24:17]
A
Yeah, same with Jeff Bezos.
- [24:18]
B
Nobody goes through life unscathed. I think that's safe to say. But let's. We will. I want to save. Exactly why. But let's be clear here. She is inflicting this on herself.
- [24:35]
A
Right, Right. Maybe that's the torture.
- [24:37]
B
Well, that's the point. I think, you know, I think that.
- [24:40]
A
I thought I did something there, but that's just clearly the point.
- [24:43]
B
It is clearly the point. Yes.
- [24:44]
A
Okay.
- [24:44]
B
Thank you.
- [24:45]
A
Thank you, Joe.
- [24:46]
B
And so she.
- [24:47]
A
She.
- [24:48]
B
Then she goes to another verse, you know, we see.
- [24:52]
A
Well, then she. Okay, but she alludes to. Yeah, I mean, she alludes to, like, an actual singer. That's, like, in this day and age. And for people who. For people who are on TikTok, you will know that Charlie Puth does, like.
- [25:08]
B
We'll read later.
- [25:09]
A
Okay.
- [25:09]
B
You know, you smoked.
- [25:13]
A
We're over here. I'm just thinking of, like, how I want to do this, you know, like. Okay, you want to sing it? No. You smoked then ate seven bars of chocolate. We declared Charlie Puth should be a bigger artist. I scratch your head, you fall asleep like a tattooed golden retriever but you awaken with dread pounding nails in your head But I've read this one where you come undone and I choose this. I chose this cyclone with you and who's gonna hold you like me, Right?
- [25:45]
B
So this verse, again, that wasn't very.
- [25:48]
A
Good, but that was the best I can do. I'm not you, Jo. I'm not you. You.
- [25:56]
B
You're the.
- [25:57]
A
You're just genuinely, like, such a believable actor. Like, I. I can feel. I can feel that you under.
- [26:05]
B
Under your. Like, the lyrics, under your direction.
- [26:08]
A
Yeah, that's true.
- [26:09]
B
I feel like.
- [26:10]
A
Thank you. Thank you.
- [26:11]
B
That. This nature.
- [26:12]
A
And I'm comfortable being the director. I'm comfortable.
- [26:14]
B
Ability. I think you are the singer.
- [26:17]
A
Call me Scorsese, the way I take this score and make the audience say C. Wow, that was really good.
- [26:25]
B
That is. That is.
- [26:26]
A
That was solid.
- [26:27]
B
That is a solid pun. It's beyond a pun.
- [26:31]
A
Thank you. Thank you. I'm getting snaps. I'm getting snaps.
- [26:34]
B
But let's be clear what she's saying here. So you smoked. Smoked marijuana, right. Then eight, seven bars of chocolate. So what you do this is. I would just say, you know, Dylan Thomas is like, a hardcore alcoholic, right? So this is kind of the soft core version of being.
- [26:53]
A
Well, people do say that. I mean, there's been a decline in drinking in the past 20 years. It is like a noticeable decline and an uptick in marijuana usage.
- [27:02]
B
And like a tattoo. I'm sorry, Like a tattooed golden tube.
- [27:05]
A
Just for a second. That was an illusion.
- [27:06]
B
That is a simile, right? That's another metaphor.
- [27:09]
A
That's true.
- [27:11]
B
The pounding nails in your head. That's a cliche.
- [27:13]
A
It is.
- [27:15]
B
But I've read this one where you come undone.
- [27:17]
A
Wait, I want to talk about Charlie Puth.
- [27:19]
B
Oh, please. Sorry.
- [27:20]
A
Well, Charlie Puth is a big artist because he, like, he just. He. First of all, he has perfect pitch. Like, he actually has perfect pitch. And he's. He's able to make songs out of almost anything. Like the song, like, Light Switch or like, what is it? Yeah, he, like, straight up, like, was like flicking his light switch and was like, wow, that's a cool sound. And then he just made a track and then he posted on TikTok people, like, this should be a song. So that's how he just, like, makes songs. He just does that stuff. Like, he's incredibly talented. And I think this was recorded at a time where he was like, peak. I agree. I think Charlie Puth is great, man.
- [27:54]
B
Should he be a bigger artist? Well, I guess.
- [27:57]
A
I think the verdict is in. I think he should be a bigger artist, too. He's, like, really good.
- [28:00]
B
I think it's safe to say that if Taylor Swift drops a song in.
- [28:03]
A
Which he says he's like, I'm serious. Like, he can do what? What? Shell, whoever. Any shell. He can do all of the shell. I'm so serious together.
- [28:14]
B
The key line, though, I think in the song. But I've read this one where you come undone. So again, she's referring this now as a book. Right. I chose this cyclone with you. Right. So she is saying, this is a choice. I'm choosing to be with this. And obviously a cyclone as we've been. You know, this is a hurricane. Right. This is a monster storm. She knows this relationship is a storm.
- [28:43]
A
Yeah.
- [28:44]
B
But she chooses it.
- [28:45]
A
She does.
- [28:46]
B
Right. So this is arguably self sabotage of herself. Right. I mean, she's accused him of self sabotage, but. Right. She says, I'm choosing this. And, you know, we all know how Matty Healy ends up. Right?
- [29:03]
A
Right.
- [29:03]
B
He ends up.
- [29:04]
A
They break up.
- [29:05]
B
The subject of the song. The smallest man who ever lived. Right. So clearly not the best choice as a man. I previously mentioned that.
- [29:15]
A
I just, like, don't know how many times people have to say this, but British, just British. British people are just not the type of people who are meant to be dated.
- [29:21]
B
Even like. Like, like the various James Bonds.
- [29:26]
A
I just feel like Idris Elba. Idris Elba is different. We're not going to talk about Idris Elba, but. And any. Any dude who played Doctor who. Honestly, we're not talking about them.
- [29:35]
B
I wonder if you're going to screw this up with me. But you told Lucy, allusion to a.
- [29:41]
A
Real person that's not famous.
- [29:42]
B
You'd kill yourself if I ever leave. And I had said that to Jack about you, so I felt seen. Everyone we know understands why it's meant to be. Because we're crazy.
- [30:00]
A
Right?
- [30:00]
B
Well, that's just a kind of a head exploding lyric. I mean, what is this? You'd kill yourself if I ever leave. And I would.
- [30:11]
A
That's very manipulative. And then she's like, oh, I'll do the same thing.
- [30:15]
B
And I had said that to. And not only do the nobody should.
- [30:18]
A
Be killing anybody over British people, but.
- [30:20]
B
Also, this is not something you go around telling people.
- [30:26]
A
Well, also, putting it in a song is like. Yeah, yeah.
- [30:29]
B
But now we're going to get to the most head exploding thing.
- [30:33]
A
Yeah.
- [30:35]
B
So. Because we're crazy. So tell me, who else is going to know me at dinner?
- [30:41]
A
Yeah.
- [30:41]
B
You take the. My ring off my middle finger and put it on the one people put wedding rings on. And that's the closest I've ever. I've come to my heart exploding. Now I can just tell you that there's no man on the planet who would ever do. That's just an insane thing to do. Unless, of course, you're just actually proposing in that moment. I mean, if. If Matt Healey actually did that kind of crazy. Apparently this was supposed to be a joke by him, but I can assure you there's no.
- [31:11]
A
I wouldn't. I would not be laughing.
- [31:14]
B
I don't think so.
- [31:15]
A
That would be weird.
- [31:16]
B
Even guys who are not as emotionally aware are gonna know you do not do such a thing.
- [31:23]
A
Right.
- [31:23]
B
Unless you're like, real off the table.
- [31:25]
A
Unless you're trying to wipe them up. It's weird. Yeah. I'm not a Matty Healy fan, man. Rake Matt. What's his name? Well, it's just Flat Matt. This is Bat Matt.
- [31:35]
B
Like I said.
- [31:35]
A
Shat Matt.
- [31:36]
B
If we're to believe that he actually did this, then he's in the Rake Jake category.
- [31:40]
A
I mean, it's just. I'm saying I've chosen one. Matt Shat. Okay, yeah.
- [31:46]
B
Matt the rat.
- [31:48]
A
Oh, that's good. Because we have Snake, Jake and Rat.
- [31:50]
B
Matt Ratmat. Hashtag.
- [31:52]
A
That's good. Hashtag ratmat.
- [31:54]
B
We didn't by the way, start. We have to use some.
- [31:56]
A
I'll use them in the next.
- [31:57]
B
You have to use the hashtag.
- [31:58]
A
Yeah, the next post that I make, I'll use.
- [32:00]
B
Actually have to see. I didn't actually look to see. I don't think there is a rake, Jake. Hashtag.
- [32:04]
A
I don't think anybody uses that word. Widely used. A widely used word. Rake.
- [32:09]
B
And by the way, just to be clear, as I said at the time, but we, we're coming back to it, a rake is the, let's say Victorian word for boy. Right? That's just, just the same thing.
- [32:20]
A
It's a widely used word. You know, we've heard of it. We've heard of it.
- [32:24]
B
So she does the chorus again. We're getting to the end of the song. Does the chorus again. And then she goes on, who's gonna, you know, who's Dylan? Tons. Patty Smith, Chelsea Hotel. Who's gonna hold you? Who's gonna hold you? Who's gonna hold you? Gonna know you. Gonna troll you. Yeah, so she switches that out from knowing the guy to trolling the guy. And obviously that's what you do. Okay, well she does. She's trolled the guy here.
- [32:52]
A
She probably agrees with me about British people.
- [32:54]
B
And then you left your. She repeats the opening line again. You left your typewriter at my apartment. Straight from the tortured poets department. And then the final four words. Who else decodes you? Yeah, right.
- [33:07]
A
That's the mic drop moment to that point.
- [33:10]
B
But if we were to decode her in this song, she's the self sabotage.
- [33:15]
A
She is 100%.
- [33:20]
B
I mean this is one of her songs which I don't think maybe people have fully appreciated. This is very much in my mind like any hero or even mastermind where she is being incredibly self critical. Here she is, right, the answer to the question of why she's a tortured poet.
- [33:39]
A
Well, she wonders if that, you know, he's like, oh, I wonder if you're gonna screw this up with me. Like I mean even stuff like that, you know, and saying that you're gonna kill yourself if your partner leaves. Like obviously that's kind of not what you do, guys.
- [33:52]
B
No.
- [33:53]
A
And I'm just giving out relationships.
- [33:54]
B
Well, she's describing two self destructive people again. Want to step back and always say, have to distinguish the singer from the song.
- [34:04]
A
That's true.
- [34:05]
B
The woman in the song is some version Of Taylor. We know because she's dropped hints like Tattoo and Jack. Right. I mean, yeah. So she's not. And even.
- [34:17]
A
But this is a pretty honest song.
- [34:19]
B
Yeah, no, no, this is.
- [34:21]
A
But it's still important to admit the.
- [34:22]
B
Thing is that the people who were critical of this song failed to appreciate.
- [34:27]
A
Right.
- [34:27]
B
They took it literally.
- [34:29]
A
Right, right. And never take anything she says again.
- [34:32]
B
This is just head exploding to me. The very people in, like, the poet community. And I'm not saying that poets, professional poets, have to view this as great poetry. That's up to them. I'm just saying that as with a Shakespeare line, you can't take it literally and then say, oh, Shakespeare believes that.
- [34:51]
A
Right, right, right.
- [34:52]
B
It's this line, as many of her sons. This entire song is. Is. Is a ironic criticism of herself for putting herself in tortured situations.
- [35:03]
A
Right.
- [35:03]
B
I knew you were trouble when you walked in.
- [35:05]
A
Right. And, well, it's called. I mean, she's the department chair of the tortured post department.
- [35:09]
B
She is.
- [35:09]
A
If she is to be believed, that means she's the main tortured poet.
- [35:12]
B
She is the pro.
- [35:14]
A
The head of tortured poetry at torturing. She got a five on AP Tortured poetry herself. Yeah.
- [35:19]
B
Right now. And. And, you know, in some sense, you could even view this as a confession. The answer to the question in antihero, the first line, I have this thing where I get older but just never wiser. Right. It's me. I'm the problem. It's me. I'll stare directly at the sun, but never in the mirror. So the question is, why doesn't she get wiser? And the answer she's offering here is, well, guess what? The torturing that I'm putting myself through.
- [35:52]
A
It'S all me, man.
- [35:53]
B
But it also results in these great songs.
- [35:56]
A
Oh, that's true.
- [35:57]
B
See, the point is the reason why there's this myth of the tortured poet. I feel like I should believe that the torture.
- [36:03]
A
I'm not intelligent.
- [36:04]
B
Like, that is what makes you a great poet. Right. So she's inflicting all of this drama and pain on herself so she can write great songs.
- [36:15]
A
I feel like there's no reason for me to even do this podcast. That was a really great point that you just made that I hadn't even. I hadn't even thought. I mean, I. Obviously, you know, that the torture helps poetry, but. Yeah, I mean, you got that from this.
- [36:26]
B
Well, look, and I'll be honest with you, half the time that I figure this end stuff out, it's just in talking about this with you, because I didn't fully, even until we were discussing it, didn't really make the full connection. That, yes, she's torturing herself so she can be a poet.
- [36:45]
A
And that's a mic drop.
- [36:46]
B
All right.
- [36:47]
A
Our homework for you is to, I don't know, put yourself through some emotional turmoil. Say no to that guy you really like.
- [36:56]
B
Say yes to the guy you don't.
- [36:58]
A
Who? Say yes to the guy you don't.
- [36:59]
B
There we go.
- [37:00]
A
Tell your friend the truth. Her haircut. Her haircut is really ugly. You know, Lie to somebody for fun.
- [37:07]
B
No, but this gets back to this thing we argued about as to whether her songs are cautionary tales.
- [37:14]
A
Right, right.
- [37:15]
B
And so the answer is, well, they're half cautionary tales and they're half. Well, you want to be a great singer, songwriter, maybe you have to put yourself through all this action.
- [37:23]
A
I don't know.
- [37:24]
B
But this is a very ironic song, and it has to be understood as a very ironic song.
- [37:29]
A
Right. Like blank space.
- [37:30]
B
And she calls herself. She says, we're modern idiots. Right. So. But, you know. So this is a really good song.
- [37:38]
A
It's a good song and it's catchy. I like it.
- [37:41]
B
Catchy song. But this is an exciting episode.
- [37:43]
A
Why is it exciting, Joseph?
- [37:45]
B
Because we are going to talk about. This is a bonus. This is kind of a different thing for us. We're gonna talk about this epic breaking of the Internet.
- [37:53]
A
Oh, my God. You guys, guys, new news. New news. Taylor has a new album coming out.
- [38:02]
B
She does the life of a showgirl, and it's gonna be all bangers. This is gonna be different than she's done for a while.
- [38:13]
A
12 tracks. No.
- [38:14]
B
12 tracks by three of the greatest living songwriters.
- [38:20]
A
Not Shell Drake. Don't get it twisted.
- [38:22]
B
It is Max Taylor, Max Martin and Shellbach.
- [38:26]
A
Not Shell Drake.
- [38:27]
B
Three of the finest songwriters today. I think you all know Max Martin. He is actually number two between Paul McCartney and John Lennon. But this is all. This is kind of.
- [38:40]
A
I think he's better than John Lennon.
- [38:43]
B
Well, John Lennon's life got cut short, I think it's safe to say.
- [38:45]
A
I know that doesn't seem fair.
- [38:47]
B
If John Lennon had lived, he would be writing a lot more songs like Imagine. And we. I can't even think of all the music that we have lost. That was a great tragedy.
- [38:55]
A
That's true.
- [38:56]
B
But this is gonna be. She kind of got some criticism for the tortured Poets Department. She put out a lot of tracks.
- [39:04]
A
She did. She put, like, I don't know, 30.
- [39:07]
B
30. Yeah. People were saying it was uneven, and that's not Us saying that is not.
- [39:11]
A
Us saying that's not us.
- [39:13]
B
But even she says on this podcast. And one other thing we're going to talk about today is the podcast podcast that broke the Internet. This is the episode of New Heights, the smash podcast by Jason and Travis Kelce.
- [39:31]
A
Beautiful.
- [39:32]
B
Sometimes known Travis, of course, currently dating Taylor. And Taylor's never been on a podcast before. Never been on a podcast before. And she did two hours with the brothers.
- [39:45]
A
She wanted to be on our podcast, but we said, like, I don't know, we just didn't have time to fit her in. And so she was like, all right, I'll go to the second choice, you.
- [39:53]
B
Know, is what happened basically, Taylor, we could reschedule next time.
- [39:57]
A
Yeah, it's fine. Like, she can have our people contact her people if she wants.
- [40:01]
B
I think we have a guest space in a month or two that we could get her into.
- [40:06]
A
Yeah, we'll talk to Shell Front and Shell Kendrick about it.
- [40:11]
B
But this, this. First of all, I think everyone should listen to this podcast because, first of all, you learn a lot. We're in this podcast. One of the important points of this podcast is we're trying to give people actionable advice. Right. On how to become better storyteller and more successful in life in general.
- [40:30]
A
Yeah.
- [40:31]
B
And one of the things that you see when you hear Taylor speak for two hours with a couple of friends of hers.
- [40:40]
A
Right. She speaks with words that are very specific, and she also likes to use metaphors, turns of phrases.
- [40:48]
B
She does. She. As we said. And this happened to me when I figured a lot of this stuff out, when I figured out these memory tricks, these. The figure of speech. How do you tell a story with things like metaphor and irony and foreshadow and all that I hadn't incorporated into my speech. And someone who read my first book, Language Intelligence, said, you know, this is a good book. It's got good stuff in it, but you don't talk like that. And then I realized I was going to have to make a very conscious effort because there was a big difference between writing and speaking.
- [41:20]
A
That's true. That is true.
- [41:22]
B
And we are entering a world where writing is going to be devalued a bit because of ChatGPT. People are going to be suspicious when they read something that you didn't write it.
- [41:34]
A
Yeah, Right.
- [41:35]
B
And therefore, your ability to speak is going to become increasingly important compared to your ability to write.
- [41:43]
A
Yeah. Personally. Personally, I feel like, you know, good luck to you all. But I. I'm fine. My English teachers always tell me that I write like how I speak and then they give me an A plus. So I don't know.
- [41:53]
B
She's a baller, you guys. What can you say?
- [41:56]
A
You just gotta figure out. You have to lock in.
- [41:58]
B
He's a baller. But, but the ball is a ballpoint pen. That's the ball.
- [42:02]
A
Whoa.
- [42:03]
B
That's, that's kind of a, that's kind of a metaphor.
- [42:06]
A
Something that you could.
- [42:08]
B
I just did that right on the spot. See, I'm getting better at it. Taylor. We could tell if you listen to Taylor speak. And by the way, you can get A video was posted online by Good Morning America a week or two ago of a 20 minute interview she did when she was 14.
- [42:25]
A
Yeah.
- [42:27]
B
And she just speaks like a intelligent 14 year old girl, but she doesn't speak using any of the things that she eventually that she put into her songs. She hadn't gotten to that point yet. But when you listen to her talk, like about Travis, she describes, and he says, Travis, he's just a vibe booster in everyone's life. He's like a human exclamation point. Well, that's just a great way to describe your boyfriend. And you know, we were saying, you know, this is stuff you can use in your everyday life, everyday life to be remembered. He says, he's like when you take a picture on your phone and you put, and you push the enhanced color button. So he's, you know, this is her way of describing her boyfriend in memorable terms. And what you see already is that she has, she just goes around perceiving the world through stories and quickly converting them into story language.
- [43:23]
A
Right. Well, I think that's, I think that's the thing that makes sense. Speaking the way that you write so important because it's, it's, it's not like speaking the way that you write will, you know, change your brain. I mean, it may, you know, you can fake it till you make it, but it's also the fact that when you speak the way you write, it's an indicator that your brain has already just begun to think in stories. Which is the best thing that you can do for your writing. Yeah, I found.
- [43:46]
B
And, and as someone who does a lot of communicating and trying to explain things, that's what I do for a living, is explain these solutions to climate change and why climate change is a problem. And I had a blog for 12 years and all that is metaphors and analogies are one of the best ways to communicate knowledge. Right. Because we're going to say something you aren't Aware of is like, something that you are aware of. And although Taylor has very interesting uses of references and allusions, he. He was. One of the things she was talking about is how much fun the ERAS tour was because her fans had all these traditions.
- [44:30]
A
Yeah. Yeah. One of her favorite traditions was when people would just blow up balloons. They'd put their flashlights behind it, wave it around, like, during Willow. It's a good song.
- [44:38]
B
Yeah. And we attended.
- [44:41]
A
We went to Toronto.
- [44:42]
B
Yeah.
- [44:42]
A
They're not very creative in Toronto. They didn't do the lights thing. It was. I. I was kind of sad about that.
- [44:47]
B
But they did, like, one of the traditions they had was when she sings Champagne problems.
- [44:54]
A
Yeah.
- [44:55]
B
Is that's, like, the big moment? And she gets a very big, like, standing ovation.
- [44:59]
A
Yeah.
- [45:00]
B
And people compete to see. Anyway, what she said was. She described the ERAs tour. She said it was like Rocky Horror Picture Show.
- [45:08]
A
It was. Yeah.
- [45:09]
B
And for those of you who, you.
- [45:12]
A
Know, are mentally stable, Rocky Horror Picture.
- [45:14]
B
Show, when it was in its heyday, and I guess even still today, people go up on stage on a movie and perform it at.
- [45:22]
A
Sure. And they also have their own little things that they'll call out, like, oh, my gosh, meatloaf again.
- [45:27]
B
Yes, exactly. So the point is, she is storifying everything when she speaks, and I think all of us can learn from that. The other thing is, she was talking about how she's using so many Easter eggs.
- [45:43]
A
Yeah. She uses a lot of Easter eggs.
- [45:45]
B
She used a lot of Easter eggs, which are these hidden references to things. And she compared it to. She says she's. The Easter thing. Easter egg thing is becoming a little zodiac killer.
- [45:59]
A
Yeah.
- [46:00]
B
Which is her way of saying, you know, she's using.
- [46:03]
A
Yes. We're very all. All very glad that she's a singer and not a serial killer.
- [46:07]
B
Indeed. And so tell me something you took away from the. The podcast, Taylor.
- [46:15]
A
Wow. I mean, I'm glad that we are also taking this opportunity to address criticism, because it's true that, in fact, in previous podcasts, we've heard from people that I don't speak enough. They like my voice. They think it's beautiful. And I wholeheartedly agree. I think I have a great voice. I think I have a lot to say.
- [46:34]
B
Does that mean you're gonna do some more singing?
- [46:36]
A
No.
- [46:37]
B
Look, one of the other things that you really learn watching that podcast is if you want to be the best in something, then you are going to be dedicated to every single element of it. Right. Did you spill some water here?
- [46:53]
A
I'm Just trying to get myself into the mood for this podcast.
- [46:58]
B
She talks about the dedication required to be the best. Really. And one that she said, a line which I think is something we could all live by, because she ignores the Internet. She ignores the Internet. And she's been trying to get her boyfriend Travis to ignore the Internet, which is hard to do because everyone writes about the two of them. But she said you should think of your attention as a luxury. Good. Not everyone can afford it.
- [47:32]
A
Yeah.
- [47:33]
B
And that's a very good Taylorism. That's another metaphor. Or actually it's a simile, because she used the word as. But her point is, you don't just give all your attention to anybody just because. Let's say someone says something mean about you on the Internet. Right? You have better things to do with your time.
- [47:57]
A
Yeah.
- [47:57]
B
Have I got my daughter totally speechless here?
- [48:00]
A
It's the plants. The plants, they're, like, really cool. And I feel like if I do bad on this podcast today, I'll be disappointing. Like, the people who, like. I mean, like, our production team, like, framed these in the shot. Like, these plants are, like, serious shit. Like, we're in, like, the major leagues now. But we have plants in our shop. We have a fucking logo. Oh, my God.
- [48:22]
B
But these are real plants. Just.
- [48:24]
A
That's even worse because these are going to be here when we're all dead and probably a sea turtle is going to eat it and then die and even more. Until the end of freaking time. These plants are going to be here, and they're going to witness this, and what are they going to tell the children of Earth? Well, and that's what's going through my mind right now.
- [48:42]
B
They're plastic plants. But I appreciate your care for these turtles. And we will have to make sure that our audio engineer and our visual engineer.
- [48:57]
A
There's so many engineers in this room right now.
- [48:59]
B
There are. We have people. Keyboard. It's just. It's just amazing.
- [49:03]
A
It's like a clown car.
- [49:05]
B
It will be up to all of them to make sure that these plants get recycled and do not get eaten by any turtles.
- [49:10]
A
Okay, let me lock in. Let me just. I'm locked in.
- [49:13]
B
Are you locked in?
- [49:14]
A
I'm locked in. Let's talk about freaking Taylor Swift now. Let me see this freaking computer. He doesn't show me this stuff beforehand. Then he blindsides me like an insane person.
- [49:23]
B
Well, one of the things she said. Do you want to just dive into the. The new album?
- [49:27]
A
Yes, I do. I do.
- [49:29]
B
She wants to dive into the.
- [49:31]
A
Oh, my God. That's what he does. And you know what another criticism of you is? And it's not coming from me. I'm quoting what other people say when I say this. But he lectures a lot and he, like, talks a lot. And, you know, other people say that you do this. I wouldn't say that you did this. I'm just quoting what other people are saying. And I think it would be beneficial to our podcast to jump right in to really to. To beat that instinct of yours like Taylor's done.
- [49:57]
B
Can I just say that, you know what people say about you? They say she has such a great voice, if only she would sing more. So we'll get her.
- [50:07]
A
It's a trap. That's what they say. And then. And then I sing, and they're like, oh, my God. All right.
- [50:11]
B
But you see, if we start going through the song. So, yes, Taylor has announced the new album, which is coming out October 3rd.
- [50:21]
A
Third. Which is, of course, 13, 10, 3. That was beautiful.
- [50:27]
B
Yes. And 10, 3. By the way, as it turns out that Travis is also into the number 13.
- [50:38]
A
He is. Well, Travis's brother is into the number 13. Favorite number, right?
- [50:43]
B
And. Yes. What was it? It was Jason. Right? Jason Kelsey. He's very into the number 13.
- [50:50]
A
Is.
- [50:51]
B
And one of the things that Taylor said was because Jason said, well, what does it mean that we all like the number 13? And she said, it means we're all family. Which is sweet.
- [51:02]
A
That's sweet.
- [51:03]
B
Right. But that was the other point I wanted to make before we jumped.
- [51:07]
A
What's your favorite number?
- [51:09]
B
What's my favorite number? Yeah, I cut them into three because I was born on the 20th, June 27th, which is two times three, and then three cubed, three to the third power. So I have always thought of three as my number.
- [51:22]
A
Oh, mine's 225. So that's. We're not family then. But you can.
- [51:26]
B
Your number is 225.
- [51:27]
A
Yeah.
- [51:28]
B
Tell them why 225 is such an exciting number.
- [51:30]
A
Well, it's 15 squared.
- [51:31]
B
It is 15 squared.
- [51:32]
A
And when I was in middle school and actually in second grade, that was the number that me and my best friend shared because she was 255, and I was 225, and it was like inverse, and I was like, that's sick as hell. So it's just been my favorite number, man.
- [51:49]
B
Numerology.
- [51:50]
A
Numerology. That's what Taylor was talking about. And Jason didn't know.
- [51:54]
B
Jason did not even know what numerology was.
- [51:57]
A
I'm just kidding. I love You, Jason. Kelsey, you seem very cool.
- [51:59]
B
Yeah. Jason plays the.
- [52:01]
A
The dumber one, which is kind of beautiful, I think. I think it's really nice when men admit that they're a little bit stupid. I think that that's beautiful. I think that that really shows how far we've come in society, present company excluded. They're not smiling at this, but I really appreciate them sitting in on this podcast about Taylor Swift. I'm the only woman in this room, and I feel that it is my duty to represent the minds of women at this table right now. Well, look, he's nodding. Thank you. You know, the people in this room are true allies, and I just, like, would like to thank you for that.
- [52:36]
B
Well, Taylor, her boyfriend Joe do that. Her boyfriend called her the smartest woman in the world.
- [52:43]
A
That was really sweet. Any boyfriend that I have, if they don't call me the smartest woman in the world, we're breaking up. I'm not the smartest woman in the world, but I just.
- [52:51]
B
You are the smartest woman in this room.
- [52:53]
A
That's beautiful. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Damn right I am.
- [52:58]
B
You got to start somewhere. You gotta start somewhere. But what I wanted to say was that Taylor. In that podcast, Taylor and Travis tell the stories of how they met.
- [53:13]
A
They do.
- [53:14]
B
And how their families have merged. And this is really, really important.
- [53:21]
A
Like anti Romeo and Juliet.
- [53:22]
B
Yes, exactly. It's the exact opposite of this. Real life.
- [53:26]
A
Yeah, that's what made me think of. I mean, no, and literally, because they're. They also describe how their jobs are quite similar. Right. I mean, they say field, stage, rehearsal, practice, it's all the same.
- [53:39]
B
And it is really, really important.
- [53:44]
A
It's probably like ice or something.
- [53:46]
B
It is really important to have a shared story in a successful relationship. And I'm happy to pass this wisdom on to my daughter because she had her first official date last night.
- [54:01]
A
Can we not right now? I don't think. You know what?
- [54:06]
B
I just. So it's just a high five for my.
- [54:08]
A
I was going to be really nice and make a joke about how you're divorced, but I mean, not make a joke about how you're divorced. That's how. I was going to be nice to you today, and then you brought that up, so. You know what? I don't know if you're qualified to give relationship advice. Mike Drop Roasted.
- [54:26]
B
Taken down my. By my own daughter. Oh. From the divorce with her mother. Man, that is just. That is just harsh.
- [54:34]
A
You should have added a clause about me not being able to make jokes about it in your settlement. You really should have.
- [54:38]
B
Damn. Well, we didn't think about it. You know, it's just like Taylor didn't think to keep the masters. Right. Wow.
- [54:46]
A
And we brought it back.
- [54:47]
B
Segue.
- [54:48]
A
That's actually true. That's actually true.
- [54:50]
B
Long talk. She talked about how amazing it was to get her masters back. And in fact, she was very smart about herself. She said, and I had this quote written down, that she is in the business of human emotion.
- [55:04]
A
Yeah.
- [55:05]
B
And she didn't think she should be the one to negotiate to get her masters back because she was too emotional about it. So she sent her mother and her.
- [55:13]
A
Brother instead of just like a fleet of lawyers because this is like, you know, obviously a multi million dollar contract.
- [55:18]
B
Yeah. So she sent them to. And, and they negotiated for her and then they came out of negotiation and they didn't have a final deal. But you know, they said, well, we'll find out soon. And then like, I don't know, a week or two later, boom, they get the phone call, you got your masters back, and she falls down on the floor crying. But it's just an amazing story. And, and how much those were the fact that she could get back the things that she had written and, and all the content and the music and the artwork and everything.
- [55:48]
A
Yeah.
- [55:51]
B
So the one point I wanted to make, this is the lesson that I'm passing on. And by the way, I will tell the story. Yes, I did get divorced from your mother. And so after that divorce, I spent a lot of time actually trying to learn how to have relationships.
- [56:05]
A
This is what men do. Men, men do this.
- [56:07]
B
When I know you get welcome to.
- [56:09]
A
A woman's life and then they mess it up and then they're like, oh shit, let me, let me start improving myself after. It's freaking exhausting, guys. Just freaking exhausting.
- [56:19]
B
Well, I will just say that there are two married couples who know a great deal about relationships. There is Harvl Prince Harry Harvl Hendrix, Meghan Markle and his wife.
- [56:33]
A
Okay.
- [56:34]
B
And they wrote, they wrote Getting the love. You want this book that I gave you, if you recall. And then there is John Gottman and his wife famously taped the conversations of couples over a 30 year period and see which ones got divorced. And he developed over about. After about 10 or 20 years, he could predict on the basis of listening to five minutes of an argument, they would videotape themselves in their home and he would have them. And in five minutes he could tell if they were gonna. With a 94% accuracy.
- [57:17]
A
That's really funny. I can just imagine him, like, receiving a videotape, and then he puts a little sticker on it, says, a divorce staying together.
- [57:24]
B
He learned a lot.
- [57:25]
A
That's really funny.
- [57:26]
B
He learned that, like, the single most important thing.
- [57:29]
A
Divorced.
- [57:31]
B
Do people argue? Right. Or do they argue destructively?
- [57:35]
A
Right, Right.
- [57:35]
B
And so he developed a whole theory of that, but one. And then he expanded that theory to what are the things that couples do who succeed? And one of the things they do is they create a shared meaning in a relationship, which means a shared narrative. Right. And as long as the couple has the shared narrative, are telling the same story about the relationship, then they have a very cohesive relationship. But if that story starts to fragment.
- [58:03]
A
Sure.
- [58:04]
B
Then the relationship. And so then if you could ask. He could interview the couple and ask one of them, how did this relationship. What's. What's the story of this relationship? And then you could ask the other, what's the story of this relationship? And if they're not the same story.
- [58:17]
A
Right.
- [58:18]
B
That's a relationship that's in trouble. Anyway, I'm just saying that what Taylor is doing is creating a story of their relationship.
- [58:26]
A
Yeah.
- [58:26]
B
And it's really quite powerful. And so he. She said that them liking the number 13 says, we're family. So. All right, we're done with this podcast.
- [58:37]
A
We're done with this podcast, and we'll see you in the next. Which will be us from before we recorded this. So actually we. Our versions of ourselves won't see you until episode, what, 12? Whatever that ends up being.
- [58:52]
B
But.
- [58:53]
A
But you'll see us, but you'll see the past versions of us. So that's actually pretty cool.
- [58:57]
B
Now we have to do the intro.
- [58:59]
A
Oh, my God. To the. To the next episode that we already recorded.
- [59:05]
B
Oh, man. This is. This is the time travel stuff. We used to watch a lot of time travel stuff.
- [59:10]
A
This is like that Rick and Morty episode we did.
- [59:12]
B
We watched the Flash a lot.
- [59:13]
A
We loved the Flash. It was great until season five. And then it just went off the rails after that dude who was in the wheelchair. That. Whatever. The macaroni and cheese recipe thing.
- [59:24]
B
Since Taylor has bared her soul, I just want to share with the listeners, do it.
- [59:29]
A
Be brave, Joe.
- [59:31]
B
That you always bring up the divorce.
- [59:36]
A
Oh, my God.
- [59:37]
B
One of the reasons I like to watch the time travel shows is because the time traveling always ends up poorly. Right. People say, oh, we're going to go back in time and solve the problem, but it always ends up worse. It's pretty much almost universal. In time travel, you. You can't go back and make things better. You go back and you set up some unknown chain of events that makes things horribly worse.
- [59:56]
A
I feel like, why would I. I feel like if I were a time traveler, I don't know why I would go back in time and fix your marriage as opposed to, like, going back in time and, like, I don't know.
- [60:05]
B
Well, no, you wouldn't be here. That's the point.
- [60:07]
A
That's true.
- [60:07]
B
The reason why.
- [60:08]
A
Wait, no, I literally would. You would? What are you talking about? I got divorced after I was born. I would.
- [60:13]
B
But you can't go back and fix it at that point.
- [60:16]
A
Yeah, I can. I'd just be like, different.
- [60:18]
B
I'm saying. Let me just finish what I was.
- [60:21]
A
Gonna say, but I was gonna share a theory of how I actually believe time travel would work if you did it right now. My theory of how time travel would work if you did it right now. And this is based on viewing multiple. And I'm talking about multiple time travel movies, all of the loop time branching times. Also knowing a bit of physics. I'm a physics major. I haven't started the major, but like, I'm a nerd, so it counts. And I think that if time travel were to exist right now, what would happen is a few things. Let's say you wanted to do, like, something, I don't know, very simple. You wanted to go back in time and. Or let's say you wanted to go back in time and shoot baby Hitler. What I think would happen is once you go back in time and shoot baby Hitler, things would start to kind of correct themselves, like, naturally. Like, if it wasn't Hitler, I think it would be somebody else named maybe Schitler Hit Fotler or some. Some German name. I don't know, maybe it would be Eichmann. Maybe there's. Oh, by the way, like, I think that. I think that all of the major events in history were a result of. Of more than just one thing.
- [61:33]
B
Well, by the way, I will just.
- [61:35]
A
Say that's what I think. I genuinely believe that the Holocaust couldn't have been stopped by killing Hitler. So.
- [61:40]
B
Well, yeah, I think there's no way of knowing. And.
- [61:42]
A
Or even if you go back and wear like. Like, let's say you realize your crush's favorite color is red and you wore a blue shirt to school that day, and you're in middle school and you go back in time and you put on a blue shirt that you know your ex will love. Like, even if you. If you had a bad interaction later that day. Like that interaction might still happen.
- [62:01]
B
Well, that's one of the points of the movie Groundhog's Day.
- [62:03]
A
Yeah.
- [62:04]
B
Is he keeps trying to get it right, but he can't do it.
- [62:06]
A
But let me.
- [62:06]
B
Let me make this point, the whole point. Right. I brought it up before my daughter, who is a woman and apparently can rudely interrupt me, but I can't interrupt her.
- [62:14]
A
Yeah.
- [62:15]
B
Because that's the double standard that we live in today. Thank you very much.
- [62:17]
A
We're reversing it.
- [62:20]
B
Is that I wouldn't go back in time and not marry your mother because then there wouldn't be you.
- [62:26]
A
So was that your. I feel like that's obvious. Right.
- [62:28]
B
I'm just saying that you can't go back and fix one thing without changing everything thing. That's what I'm saying. You can't pick.
- [62:35]
A
I'm just kidding. That was very sweet.
- [62:37]
B
The thing that you fix.
- [62:38]
A
That was really sweet. I appreciate that.
- [62:40]
B
Okay.
- [62:40]
A
Yeah.
- [62:41]
B
So I think we're ending this episode here.
- [62:42]
A
Now we can end it here. Your homework is to do some light emotional torture. Nothing physical, though. We can't be lying.
- [62:48]
B
No, no, no, no, no. What you want to do is drop some illusions.
- [62:53]
A
Yeah.
- [62:54]
B
In your.
- [62:55]
A
Or watch some Community. Watch some community. Learn about the story circle, which is in the episode that we just recorded.
- [63:02]
B
They don't know what the story's about.
- [63:03]
A
They have no idea what I'm talking about.
- [63:05]
B
This is so cool.
- [63:05]
A
Wait, wait, wait, wait. We're doing, like actual time travel here. When I talk about the story circle in the next episode, look it up. And also watch Community because they do do good pop culture illusions.
- [63:17]
B
All right, so I'm going to say.
- [63:18]
A
The TV show by Dan Hart.
- [63:19]
B
Let's. Let's end. Let's. Let's try to end the answer.
- [63:21]
A
I'm confusing myself, but that was really cool.
- [63:23]
B
I'm going to end the episode here.