Taylor’s genius trick in Father Figure will blow your mind and solve a big Swiftian mystery

Summary

Decoding Taylor Swift, Episode Summary

Episode Title: Taylor’s genius trick in Father Figure will blow your mind and solve a big Swiftian mystery
Date: November 4, 2025
Hosts: Joe Romm and Toni (Antonia) Romm

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Overview

This episode of Decoding Taylor Swift dives deep into the lyrics, themes, and storytelling mechanics of Taylor Swift’s song “Father Figure.” Hosts Joe and Antonia Romm dissect the song’s autobiographical undertones, reveal Swift’s layered compositional tricks (especially around perspective shifts and key changes), and connect the track to broader patterns in Swift’s work—especially her repeated examinations of powerful, flawed father figures. The episode is a masterclass in decoding narrative technique, symbolism, and subtext and offers practical storytelling insights listeners can apply elsewhere.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Central Mystery: Taylor’s “Father Figure” Obsession

• Topic: Why does Taylor Swift write so many songs about absent or “bad” father figures?
• The hosts frame “Father Figure” as the clearest and most direct confrontation of this recurring theme, with Joe (the self-styled “father figure obsessive”) promising to show how this song not only addresses a long-standing Swiftian motif but also upends it.
• Quote:
  • "Taylor says... 'The Father figure lyrics are my favorite, and she says it's the stuff that I've always wanted to say,' which is a very curious thing. For a woman who's written, what, over 300 songs?" — Joe (00:51)

2. Lyric Dissection & Symbolism

Opening Verses (02:01–05:03)

• The lyrics’ language of coldness, castles (chateau), and being “wayward” signals mentor/protégé dynamics, class, and transformation.
• Hosts link the “chateau” to “The Fate of Ophelia” and note Swift’s penchant for connecting her stories (“Ophelia is in a tower... trapped by Scott Borchetta or whatever his name is." — Antonia, 03:48).
• The “jag” (Jaguar) is both a literal flashy car and a metaphorical predator; “foreshadowing” is a Swift staple.

Chorus & Mafioso Imagery (05:32–06:20, 09:19–09:46)

• Chorus lyrics invoke mafia movies (“I protect the family”), hinting at power, loyalty, and betrayal, even wordplay (“Family picks up the F from Father Figure”).
• Swift flips gendered power by using male braggadocio:
  • "'My dick's bigger'... More women need to be talking about their penis sizes in songs." — Antonia (05:58)
• Discussion of “brown liquor” connects to Scott Borchetta (label boss) and his bourbon/whiskey distillery.

Allusions to Deals with the Devil (07:29–07:54)

• References to “making deals with the devil” link to classic literature (Dr. Faustus) and symbolize selling out, short-term gain for soul-sapping costs.
• Swift’s mentor, in real life, achieved material success but at the cost of their protegee’s trust.

Power Dynamics and Flipping the Script (08:58–10:46)

• “Father Figure” is a song about power, mentorship, and, crucially, the reversal of roles.
• "The tables did get turned. That's the point of this song." — Joe (08:58)
• Joe and Antonia dwell on Scott Borchetta’s actual quote post-masters-sale—which they read as deeply cynical and self-serving.

The Antihero’s Arc (10:46–14:21)

• The hosts draw parallels between Borchetta and TV antiheroes like Tony Soprano and Walter White.
• The notion: those who begin as visionaries, with high hopes, may be corrupted by ambition.
• Swift frames her antagonist as someone who “wanted to see [her] rise, but didn’t want to see [her] reign.”

3. Perspective Shifts & Key Music Theory Insights

Bridge & “Genius Trick” Revealed (16:32–25:30)

• The bridge is the turning point. The narrator switches from mentor to mentor-turned-antagonist, and Swift takes agency.
• Lyrical wordplay and pronoun shifts mark the change in power and perspective (“I drank” becomes “we drank”; later, “my dick's bigger” is Swift’s own).
• Key Change:
  • Swift uses the musical key change precisely when the tables turn—this is both literal (music theory) and metaphorical (switching narrative POV and control).
  • Aha Moment: The hosts note Swift did the same in “Getaway Car”—“It’s not just a key change. It's an auditory pun on stealing the keys… at the point where she takes the keys to the kingdom from him.” — Joe (24:47)
• Old Fashioned drinks are Swift’s recurring symbol for cursed relationships. Both “Father Figure” and “Getaway Car” use car metaphors, drinks, and table-turning.

4. Re-examining the Ending, Irony, and Theme Closure

• The song closes with the original lines (“You remind me of a younger me. I saw potential”), but their meaning is reversed—the naïve “protégé” is now the outdated, outmaneuvered mentor.
• “A younger me was naive. And guess what? You were naive in thinking that I wasn't going to be able to turn the tables on you.” — Joe (28:24)

5. Storytelling Lessons & the Hero’s Journey

• Swift’s technique is called out as “classic hero’s journey storytelling,” with Joe referencing Joseph Campbell and Star Wars analogies—narrative blueprints for growth and transformation.
• The hosts suggest that learning such storytelling helps anyone become a better writer, communicator, and leader.
• Antonia points out Swift uses shock-value lines and wild imagery (“deals with devils” and dick jokes) to make her points stick.

6. Taylor’s Motivation and Real-Life Parallels

• The hosts connect Swift’s history with Scott Borchetta as backdrop: he was a “father figure” who ultimately betrayed her by selling her masters, leading to a new definition of “betrayal.”
• "I thought I knew what betrayal felt like, but this stuff that happened with him was a redefinition of betrayal for me. Just because it felt like it was family." — Taylor Swift, quoted by Joe (35:58)
• The many “bad dad” or absent father characters in Swift’s catalog reflect her mistrust and critique of powerful male “mentors,” not her own actual father.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Taylor’s lyricism:

  • “This is a song where she has thought through all of the critics who say, oh, these aren't well thought out lyrics. This song is a very well thought out song. And there are layers upon layers of meaning.” — Joe (29:10)

• Turning the tables:

  • “You remind me of a younger me. I saw potential. Now, again, to be clear, the first line is in present tense. You remind me of a younger me right now. Why? Because a younger me was naive. And guess what? You were naive in thinking that I wasn't going to be able to turn the tables on you.” — Joe (27:57)

• On storytelling:

  • “This song is one of her many classic hero's journeys. ... and that anyone can apply to become a better writer and lead, connect and change the world.” — Joe (31:02)

• On the “key” musical trick:

  • “It’s not just a key change. It's an auditory pun on stealing the keys... she takes the keys to the kingdom from him.” — Joe (24:47)

• On using shock lines:

  • “The whole ‘making deals with devils because your dick's bigger’ is just, you know, shock. That's kind of a literary device in and of itself.” — Antonia (38:50)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening & Theme Setup: 00:00–01:40
• Lyric Analysis—First Verse and Symbolism: 02:01–05:03
• Chorus & Gendered Language: 05:32–06:20
• “Deals with the Devil” & Literary Allusions: 07:29–07:54
• Scott Borchetta’s Real-Life Parallels: 08:58–10:46
• Mafia/Antihero Comparisons: 10:46–14:21
• Bridge—Perspective Switch & Key Change Discussion: 16:32–25:30
• The “Getaway Car” Parallel & Auditory Pun: 24:03–25:30
• Song’s Conclusion, Irony, and Hero’s Triumph: 27:57–28:44
• Storytelling Takeaways (Hero’s Journey): 29:09–33:29
• Swift’s Real Betrayal & Final Reflections: 33:44–41:33
• Closing Thoughts: 38:50–41:33

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Tone & Style

Witty, playful, and occasionally irreverent, the hosts blend deep literary analysis with pop culture references and affectionate ribbing. Antonia’s comedic asides (especially about penises and reality TV), Joe’s enthusiastic musicology, and the generational banter create an accessible-yet-smart environment ideal for both hardcore Swifties and casual listeners.

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Practical Takeaways

• “Father Figure” showcases Swift’s mastery of musical and narrative perspective, using both lyrics and musical structure (key changes) to signal power shifts and reversals.
• Understanding these techniques can help anyone tell more compelling, memorable stories—whatever the medium.
• Swift’s songs, especially on “Life of a Showgirl,” reward close, repeated reading: double meanings, callbacks, and narrative reversals abound.

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Next episode: “Eldest Daughter”—where family dynamics get even deeper.

(Don’t forget to DM Joe for his Paramount+ login!)

Transcript

[Antonia]

Hi. This is Decoding Taylor Swift, where we dig into the deeper meaning of the life of a showgirl. One song each week. Today, we will transform how you think about Father figure with the help of my swifty father, a storytelling expert recognized by Rolling Stone magazine.

[Jo Roam]

I'm Jo Roam, and my daughter Antonia is great at three decoding lyrics, writing, and improv comedy. Now, this is a great song, but it also solves one of Taylor's biggest mysteries. Why does she have so many songs with bad or missing father figures, including on this album?

[Antonia]

That's a good question. My father is obsessed with all of the fathers and Taylor's songs, and he will always find a way to make episodes about them. So join us on this journey where my father is going to become obsessive.

[Jo Roam]

Well, that obsession is the origin story for this podcast, but Taylor says something very unusual in the intro to this song on the track by Tracks on Spotify. She says she loves all the songs on the album, but the Father figure lyrics are my favorite, and she says it's the stuff that I've always wanted to say, which is a very curious thing. For a woman who's written, what, over 300 songs?

[Antonia]

300 songs. You'd think that there's really nothing left.

[Jo Roam]

To write, but there's something in this song that we need to figure out what it is that she's always wanted.

[Antonia]

We need to figure it out.

[Jo Roam]

We need to.

[Antonia]

Yes, we need to.

[Jo Roam]

Why we launched this song.

[Antonia]

He really does need to. He really needs to. At this point, it's just him and his computer.

[Jo Roam]

I know. And I had to listen to this song, like, 30 or 40 times to catch the key word that we will do.

[Antonia]

Important to note. He didn't have to do that. He doesn't have to do any of this, but he does it because he loves to do it.

[Jo Roam]

Right. Okay, let's dive into the lyrics. Start with the opening.

[Antonia]

All right, let me pull them up.

[Jo Roam]

Yeah.

[Antonia]

When I found you, you were young, wayward, lost in the cold Pulled up to you in the jag, Turned your rags into gold. The winding road leads to the chateau. You remind me of a younger me.

[Jo Roam]

Those are amazing lyrics.

[Antonia]

Wow.

[Jo Roam]

For an opening.

[Antonia]

Yeah. Yeah. And some people here. Another criticism of the album is that it's not her best songwriting, but I saw a video the other day where it was like. It was like the version of this that is like, just, like, freaking. Like, it was like Atlanta style rapping, and everybody was like, damn, these lyrics go hard. And it's like, they do.

[Jo Roam]

I can't lie these lyrics are. I believe I agree with her. They are the best on the album. And this is one of those songs where you have to look at every single word. When I found you, you were young, wayward, lost in the cold, pulled up to you in the jag. So first question, why a jag?

[Antonia]

Well, funny that you've said that. In one of her other songs, she does mention jaguars in reference to how, you know, all the older, richer people pull up in jaguars.

[Jo Roam]

But here's possible reason for jaguar. A jaguar is a predator.

[Antonia]

That's true.

[Jo Roam]

This is a story.

[Antonia]

A little bit of foreshadowing there.

[Jo Roam]

A little foreshadowing, which we know.

[Antonia]

Foreshadowing there.

[Jo Roam]

Taylor loves to do.

[Antonia]

Loves foreshadowing.

[Jo Roam]

And turn your rags into gold. The winding road leads to the chateau. Okay, now that's a very odd. Well, chateau is a very unusual word.

[Antonia]

I mean, it means castle.

[Jo Roam]

It means castle. Now, isn't that interesting, because in the very first song of this album, the fate of Ophelia. Ophelia's in a tower, in a castle.

[Antonia]

She's in a tower. Oh, my gosh. She's been trapped. That's crazy. Trapped by Scott Borchetta or whatever his name is.

[Jo Roam]

Well, Scott Borchetta, yes. The man who started the label, Scott Brucetta. And by the way, Scott is also a sports car driver.

[Antonia]

Really?

[Jo Roam]

It is worth noting. Yes. He also owns a NASCAR team, all of which bought with the profit from all these songs that Taylor did.

[Antonia]

Yeah. Five people, I don't know, took advantage of a younger friggin.

[Hallie Keefer]

Or.

[Jo Roam]

But Chateau is also interesting because it's French. Just want to pass that by. And we heard some French in Elizabeth Taylor, right?

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Jo Roam]

So chateau is also, you know, when we were talking about the reference to Ophelia, the father, the daughter of the eldest daughter of a nobleman. A chateau is something that a nobleman owns. So just some connections here. And she says, you remind me of a younger me. I saw potential. It's worth remembering. These will be the last lines in the song. So they loop back in a very interesting way.

[Antonia]

They do, as we've discussed, you know, foreshadowing for there to be, you know, after. There must be a four for there.

[Jo Roam]

To be to loop around in the storytelling. In the first season, we really focused on her storytelling strategy of having foreshadow and then foreshadowing. The karma biting you back. You need to foreshadow what's gonna happen, and then the karma bites you back. And guess what? That's what this song does. Let's do the chorus.

[Antonia]

I'll be your father figure. I drink that brown liquor. I can make deals with the devil because. And you guys, this is true for me. Antonius in a CR room too. My dick's bigger. This love is pure profit. Just step into my office. I dry your tears with the sleeve. With my sleeve. Excuse me. Leave it with me. I protect the family. Leave it with me. I protect the family. And then that's the close guys.

[Jo Roam]

Amazing.

[Antonia]

So, so, so true. I feel like more women need to be talking about their penis sizes in songs. I feel like I really appreciate how she does that.

[Jo Roam]

As we've remarked, this is an unusual album because she also talks about her boyfriend's penis size in wood.

[Antonia]

She talks about. Yeah, a lot of penises on her mind. She. She does wrote this while ovulating. Clearly. Good for her.

[Jo Roam]

The point here is, presumably this is the man speaking who has picked her up in the vehicle and is now going to transform her into a star or help her become a star. But I drink that brown liquor.

[Antonia]

Yes. What is that? Oh, an Old Fashioned.

[Jo Roam]

An Old Fashioned is something she drinks. Whiskey.

[Antonia]

Whiskey.

[Jo Roam]

Now it's bourbon. Famously a type of whiskey. Scott Borchetta.

[Antonia]

I did not know that bourbon was a type of whiskey.

[Jo Roam]

It is. I actually had to look that up.

[Antonia]

Sorry, guys. You know, personally speaking, I'm underage. I have never seen a drink in my life, and I don't even know what whiskey is. But thanks for letting me know that bourbon is a type of this crazy drink called whiskey.

[Jo Roam]

And guess what? Scott Borchetta, as he became wealthy in, I think 2015, bought a distillery and turned it into a place that created something called Borchetta Bourbon. So he uses the same type of alliteration that Taylor likes.

[Antonia]

Borchetta Bourbon.

[Jo Roam]

Now this is the key.

[Antonia]

That's something that comes out of his butt.

[Jo Roam]

There you go. This line. I can make deals with the devil.

[Antonia]

Sure.

[Jo Roam]

Okay. Well, guess what?

[Antonia]

That's a reference to a Christopher type play. What's it called? It's.

[Jo Roam]

Well, this is Dr. Faustus. The deal with the devil was the Dr. Fascist. We see this in many movies.

[Antonia]

And Lucifer and what's his face. Yeah.

[Jo Roam]

Now the interesting thing about this line.

[Antonia]

Is just some literary illusion.

[Jo Roam]

It is.

[Antonia]

Yes.

[Jo Roam]

Anyone can make deals with the devil. Anyone can.

[Antonia]

Okay.

[Jo Roam]

And guess what?

[Antonia]

It helps if their penis is big.

[Jo Roam]

Well, it never ends well. You really don't want to make a deal with the devil.

[Antonia]

Yeah. Because five doesn't matter.

[Jo Roam]

You're selling your soul for some short term gain. And Long term, you've given up your soul.

[Antonia]

Well, we can talk about this later in the song, but Scott Borchetta does have this quote where he's talking about how he got with the money to do a lot of things that he wanted to do. And that's great. Yeah. Usually when you take advantage of somebody, the thing that you get out of it is ostensibly something that you needed before to do things. So proud of him. Happy for him that he successfully took advantage of somebody. Yay. Proud, happy. I'm glad that that worked out for him. But, yeah, I can, like, even read the quote.

[Jo Roam]

Well, and to be clear, the point of this song is that the tables did get turned. That's the point of this song, as she says, is that Father Figure is a song about power, a song about a protege and their mentor and about sort of the idea of the tables turning and the flipping of the script.

[Antonia]

That is true.

[Jo Roam]

And she even says 12 songs, but each one really packs a punch, and each one is its own kind of movie. Okay, now this movie seems to be kind of a mafia movie because of the lines, I protect the family. Leave it with me. I protect the family. And we will come back to that. I like the fact, by the way, that Family picks up the F from Father Figure.

[Antonia]

Father figure. Family. Wow. Oh, here, when we can get to the bridge, we can talk about this more. But there is a quote by Borchetta who says, yeah, it's crazy in the big picture. It gave me the opportunity to do a lot of things that I wanted to do in my life, and so I can't look back with regret. It's a decision that I made and I lived with about how he, you know, sold her masters. So glad for him. Like, yay. I. I don't understand. Like, you know, I feel like the point of doing all that is so you can achieve your dreams. So really, it makes, like, no sense. But I guess I really don't like him.

[Jo Roam]

Well, he. Look, this is certainly we're getting at this issue of why Taylor seems to write about father figures so much.

[Antonia]

And you know what? Taylor probably agrees with me, but. But Scott Borchetta doesn't seem like a great guy.

[Jo Roam]

He start. And the key thing to remember is he started Big Machine Records. His first hire in 2005 was a young Taylor Swift, whom he thought might be his main character.

[Antonia]

That was his first hire.

[Jo Roam]

Yes. Wow. Yes. That was the deal. And he thought. I believe he said he thought she might be her Mick Jagger. His Mick Jagger. So he knew she kind of I mean, yeah, well, he look and look. That's to his credit. Let's not. In the beginning, he saw talent. He made a. He placed a bet. He. He broke off. He didn't want to be a traditional label. Created a label. I can do things differently now. As it turns out, he didn't do things differently. But this is also a classic antihero's journey, right? A crash and burn where someone has high hopes and they.

[Antonia]

That is kind of. I mean, that is an antihero's journey. Some people would call that an anti villain's journey. Right. It could be you start off on the good side and you kind of slowly lose yourself. Kind of like a Walter White type person.

[Jo Roam]

Let's get to the next one. The I pay the check.

[Antonia]

Oh, you're not gonna say anything about my funny little TV illusion? You like Breaking Bad? I've never even seen Antiviral.

[Jo Roam]

I do like. Well, this is a Breaking Bad story for him.

[Antonia]

A little scrap Breaking Bad. He is.

[Jo Roam]

He is that.

[Antonia]

I only watch sitcoms.

[Jo Roam]

If you want a Tony Soprano type. Yes, he is a Mad Men. You know, all those classic. That Andy here. A TV series that HBO started with the Sopranos. But let's. Let's get to the part.

[Antonia]

I know that was an HBO show. When did Sopranos come out?

[Jo Roam]

The Sopranos? Oh, now you're gonna test me? It's the late 1990s.

[Antonia]

Really? I always thought the Sopranos were from like the fucking 80s or 70s.

[Jo Roam]

No, that was like an old show, but. So let's get into this part where it starts to sound also mob. Like.

[Antonia]

What? The second verse. Pay the check before it kisses the mahogany grain Said they want to see you rise they don't want to see you reign I showed you all the tricks of the trade All I ask is for your loyalty, my dear protege. Yeah, there you go. And then it's the chorus again. I enjoy the line, they want to see you rise. They do not want to see you reign. Because I think that's true for a lot of musicians and actors. Less so actors. But when somebody gets very famous, when somebody becomes very successful, obviously they become harder to control. You know, when somebody's rising, it's kind of like, wow. Like, wow. We're doing it like we're making them famous. Wow. And then they become famous. And it's like, okay, well, he's saying, you know, that.

[Jo Roam]

That they want you to become successful enough to make the money, but not successful enough that you take their power from them. Right. Which of course is ironic. Foreshadow of the rest of the song.

[Antonia]

Sure.

[Jo Roam]

Right. Nicely done. The rain, of course, bringing back the idea of the king. And as you say, then we get the. Then we get the chorus again that deals with the devil and then he also, you know, this love is pure profit. That's a pretty cynical. It's hard to say exactly what it means, but it sounds cynical. It's like the love between us isn't real love. It's. It's the love of someone who can make money off of you. The only.

[Antonia]

I interpreted it as like, you know, like our partnership will, like, you know, give us, you know, bring profit. Like, you know, it's supposed to be kind of like, uh. I mean, it's. It's just like under no illusion about the nature of the relationship that they have. You know, like, it's not.

[Jo Roam]

It's just about money. It's strictly business. Right. As we come to learn that it is, unfortunately, strictly business. So this is a song about the.

[Antonia]

Tables, and it foreshadows that it does.

[Jo Roam]

And the question with this song is, one of the questions is, when do the tables turn?

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[Jo Roam]

And this the next.

[Antonia]

It's in the bridge.

[Jo Roam]

Yeah, it seems to be the bridge. The next verse, however, is ambiguous, right. Where he says, I saw a change in you, my dear boy.

[Antonia]

No, that's Taylor.

[Jo Roam]

You think that this is now Taylor speaking as Taylor?

[Antonia]

Yes, I do. Because they don't make loyalty like they used to. Your thoughtless ambitions mark the ignition on foolish decisions which led to misguided visions. Because that's clearly talking about how he used. I mean, he, Scott Scooter Braun, the dude who got sold the records to, paid a lot of money, obviously, for them. And Scott Burchetta says that he personally, like, got to do obviously a lot of things with the money. It was his ambition that drove him to sell his records. Sell her records. But yes, and there's also, you know, a slight key change or we get.

[Jo Roam]

To the key change, we're not there yet.

[Antonia]

Well, it's in the bridge. It's not a key change. I mean, I don't know if what it's called, I'm not a music theorist, but there's a change in the music. It's the tone of the music that changes right before the bridge. It goes up a little bit, swells. And so that's why, I mean, I think it's pretty obvious that it's Taylor singing because it says my dear boy. I mean, she's talking to him now.

[Jo Roam]

It could be, yes.

[Antonia]

She's, you know, I protect the family. I saw a change in you, my dear boy. You know, they don't make loyalty like they used to. Obviously, she's talking to him now because if we're assuming the song is about him, which it probably is. It clearly is. In fact, you know, it only makes sense for the bridge to be about, like, her singing to him.

[Jo Roam]

Yeah, I think I'm gonna just say, yeah, I don't know. I agree that this part could be her speaking, but she also says that to fulfill your dreams, you had to get rid of me. And that kind of applauded.

[Antonia]

I mean, it's not necessarily a mafia. It doesn't have to mimic like The Godfather. But, like, yes, She's a protege that started rising. So she. As she was becoming, you know, the master, the Jedi after the Padawan, obviously, he felt threatened, so he had to get rid of her.

[Jo Roam]

Well, and it could be. I think the key transition line is where she whispers, I protect the family.

[Antonia]

Okay.

[Jo Roam]

But she does. Well, how does she say it?

[Antonia]

I protect the family.

[Jo Roam]

Now let's get into the part where she is clearly singing. Yeah, I was your father figure. We drank that brown liquor. You made a deal with the devil. Turns out my dicks bigger.

[Antonia]

Okay, dad, calm down.

[Jo Roam]

But there's a key word that he switched.

[Antonia]

Yeah, my. And it's. You made a deal with this devil before that. This devil. Right.

[Jo Roam]

I was your father figure.

[Antonia]

Oh, we lol.

[Jo Roam]

We drank. The first two was I drank.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Jo Roam]

Now it's we drank. And as you say, she drinks. We believe Old fashions. We know this from a song that we talked about in the first episode, getaway Car.

[Antonia]

That's true.

[Jo Roam]

Getaway Car, when she says, I knew it from the first Old fashioned.

[Antonia]

We were cursed.

[Jo Roam]

And guess what? As we'll see, this song echoes.

[Antonia]

She likes using Old fashions as a symbol for cursed, you know, relationships.

[Jo Roam]

And Old Fashioned is made with bourbon or whiskey. And guess what else about Getaway Car? It's another song that begins with her getting picked up in a car. And it's also another song about her turning the tables on a man. So this is what I realized after listening to this song 30 times. And then I went back and played Getaway Car. And there's even more that we will get to. But this, I think, is an amazing saw in how it parallels Getaway Car a little bit. And the table's turning, so let's continue. You want to fight? You found it. I got the place surrounded. You'll be sleeping with the fishes before you know you're drowning. Whose portraits on the mantel? Who covered up your scandals? Mistake my kindness for weakness and find your card. Canceled.

[Antonia]

Bars, bars, bars, bars.

[Jo Roam]

Brutal. Now I was trying to think. Okay, card cancel. How did she cancel his card? Well, she re recorded the albums. The albums. That is sort of the way you cancel the value of those songs that Scott bought. So really nicely done. And by the way, I was your father figure. You pulled the wrong trigger. This empire belongs to me. Leave it with me. I protect the family. Leave it with me. I protect the family. Leave it with me. Just to be clear, the last time she says, I protect the family is the sixth time she says, I protect the family, which People believe is for the six records that she protected that she wanted back. That's her family.

[Antonia]

Oh, wow.

[Jo Roam]

That's what she wanted back. And here is the other very interesting point. She has here. A key change right in the bridge.

[Antonia]

Yes.

[Jo Roam]

Now, she also has a key change in getaway car. And the key change in getaway car occurs. And what's interesting about the key change is that in the note in the track by track where she's talking about the song, she says that this song Father Figure has one of my favorite key changes that I've ever done in a song. So look for that in the end. And then she repeats I also love the key change chorus lyrics. So why does she repeat twice that there's a key change here? I'm going to.

[Antonia]

Just to make sure that people know that it's a perspective shift in the song. Right.

[Jo Roam]

But here's something I'm going to put out there that I think will blow your mind.

[Antonia]

Yes. You have listened to the song 30, 40 times.

[Jo Roam]

I have.

[Antonia]

Nobody has taken him on his daily walks outside of that house.

[Jo Roam]

I also went back last night and listened to Getaway Car a dozen times. So.

[Antonia]

Are there no good shows on?

[Jo Roam]

I don't understand. I did watch Saturday Night Live last night. Okay.

[Antonia]

Oh, I haven't. I have to watch watch that day. Okay.

[Jo Roam]

See? So there you go.

[Antonia]

Wait, who is the host? Who is the host? Who's the host?

[Jo Roam]

Some obscure guy. People can write in and tell me I should know who this guy is. But he was just obscure and it's.

[Antonia]

Going to be one of the most popular people.

[Jo Roam]

Oh, who is it? Who is this guy? You tell me.

[Antonia]

Miles Teller. Oh, who's Miles Teller? He's not like an obscure guy. He's like. I don't know. He's Whiplash and Top Gun, Maverick.

[Jo Roam]

Fine. But in Getaway car. Let me read the lyrics from the key change in getaway car. We were jet set Bonnie and Clyde oh, oh. Until I switched to the other side.

[Antonia]

To the other side. I, I, I, I'd.

[Jo Roam]

Right. And then comes the key line. Put the money in a bag and I stole the keys.

[Antonia]

That was the last time you had a.

[Jo Roam]

It's not just a key change. It's a auditory pun on stealing the keys.

[Antonia]

Oh, my God.

[Jo Roam]

Keys to the kingdom. She wants us to know that there was a key change in Father Figure at the point where she takes the keys to the kingdom from him.

[Antonia]

Yeah. And then changes the actual key and.

[Jo Roam]

Changes the actual key. Which means that's what she also did in Getaway car. And we didn't notice it at the time, but that was a amazing pun. Play on just. Isn't that not mind blowing? That's pretty cool.

[Antonia]

Mind blowing. That's pretty cool. Yeah, I'd say pretty cool. Like 6, 7 on a scale of 1 to 10.

[Jo Roam]

6 7. There you go.

[Antonia]

How do you know what 67 is?

[Jo Roam]

Oh, because I was watching.

[Antonia]

What the hell?

[Jo Roam]

I watched South Park. They did a whole episode on it where carts. They have a whole episode on. On 6 7. I'm sorry, it's really.

[Antonia]

What the hell? What is south park, bro? It's a fake show. Okay, wait, but where do you watch South Park? I'm trying to stream it.

[Jo Roam]

I don't know where it's on. It's on a peacock. I'm sorry, sorry, sorry. It's paramount.

[Antonia]

I don't have that either. You have to give me your login. Okay, can you, after this episode, send me your login info?

[Jo Roam]

Okay, but we're going to have to delet.

[Antonia]

No, we won't. No, we won't. Guys, DM Joseph Jacob Rome on Instagram. He will give you his Paramount login and you can watch the 67 episode and then give back the subscription. But it's important that you watch this because this is a very important cultural touchstone that has been. That has happened currently because it's Dictionary.com's Word of the year, even though it's not a word. A word. No, they're numbers and they're two of them. And I suppose that six is a word and so is seven. But I guess what I'm confused about. About is that they're numbers and then they're two of them. And I guess, and this is what society has really. Six, seven is dominating, right?

[Jo Roam]

You gotta raise your hands when you do six, seven. Six, seven. Oh, yes, yes, Exactly. The weighing of the scale.

[Antonia]

Can you do. Can you. Can you do it? Can you do the six Seven, Dad.

[Jo Roam]

Six, seven. Oh, my God. There you go. Are you happy? Okay, but let me. Let me just come back to the final.

[Antonia]

My mustache, by the way.

[Jo Roam]

There you go.

[Antonia]

My Halloween costume. It didn't look this Austrian, if you know what I mean before, but okay.

[Jo Roam]

All right, so the final lines of the song are the final ironic tweet twist.

[Hallie Keefer]

Do you guys hear that? Oh, that's our podcast Ruin, brought to you by me, your host, intrepid horror movie freak, Hallie Keefer, and me, your resident scaredy cat, Alison Libby. Join us each week as Halle forces me to listen to the Twisted plot of yet another bone chilling horror movie. From classics like the Exorcist and the Thing to the latest releases to the most disgusting films on streaming. We ruin them all every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts. So come join us. And until then, we beg you, please, keep it spooky.

[Jo Roam]

Where she says, you know, you remind me of a younger me. I saw potential. Now, again, to be clear, the first line is in present tense. You remind me of a younger me right now. Why? Because a younger me was naive. And guess what? You were naive in thinking that I wasn't going to be able to turn the tables on you.

[Antonia]

Amen, sister. Amen.

[Jo Roam]

And when she says, I saw potential, she saw the potential to turn the tables.

[Antonia]

She stole those keys. She turned 19 in Poland and stole those keys. Amen.

[Jo Roam]

And she is the Mastermind.

[Antonia]

He doesn't know what that means. That's too deep for him.

[Jo Roam]

That is. But we did talk about Mastermind in Episode four, and she does everything by design. And so to underestimate Taylor Swift is a mistake that you do not really want to make. Snap. And snap. So, want to talk a little bit now?

[Antonia]

Just a little bit.

[Jo Roam]

Just a little bit. So this is a brilliant song. I think. This is a. A. This is a song where she has thought through all of the critics who say, oh, these aren't well thought out lyrics. This song is a very well thought out song. And there are layers upon layers of meaning. And one of the things she's doing here is running the classic Hero's Journey story. And in fact, in the audio notes. So this is another thing, right? Taylor releases short audio notes for each of these songs and for many of her songs. And in the audio notes, she describes this as Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader. Although this is really more like Anakin Skywalker.

[Antonia]

I was gonna say.

[Jo Roam]

Yeah, this is more Obi Wan Kenobi against Obi Wan Kenobi, because that is one. First, the story.

[Antonia]

We're nerds First. We're nerds first.

[Jo Roam]

Yes, well, Star Wars. She brought up Star wars, by the way, in the audio notes. One of the guys, I'm not certain, it's either Max Martin or Shellbach, says, not Drake.

[Antonia]

Not Shell.

[Jo Roam]

Drake says, this is Darth Vader and the Emperor, which is more true in the end of Return of the Jedi when Darth does turn, won't kill his son and decides he's gonna kill the Emperor. Although, spoiler alert, Somehow Emperor not really dead.

[Antonia]

Emperor's not.

[Jo Roam]

I'm sorry for the spoiler alert, but it's such a.

[Antonia]

Are you kidding me, bro? You cannot be spoiling these movies.

[Jo Roam]

But the point I'm bringing in Star wars is that George Lucas loved the work of Joseph Campbell and Joseph Campbell wrote the Hero with a Thousand Faces and he is the person.

[Antonia]

He was a story circle guy, created.

[Jo Roam]

The idea, popularized the idea of the hero's journey.

[Antonia]

And he was the saving the cat guy, right?

[Jo Roam]

Or no, that's no saving the cat. There were books later written. But the point is this song is one of her many classic hero's journeys. Right. You know, one of the reasons we did this podcast is not only to entertain and not only to decode and understand what she's doing, but also to see the secrets of storytelling that make her a modern day Shakespeare and that anyone can apply to become a better writer and lead, connect and change the world. Right? And in season one, I hope people will go. A lot of people are going back and listening to those. It's really incredible. Thank you very much, fans.

[Antonia]

Thank you fans. Oh my gosh.

[Jo Roam]

We are doing very well on Spotify.

[Antonia]

We're Guys, put in the comments what type of fan you would be if you could be a fan. Would you be one of those woozoo fans? Would you be a ceiling fan? Would you be a paper fan? Let me know in the comments. And thank you to have already commented. Send comments Email J. Roam.

[Jo Roam]

No, no, no.

[Antonia]

DM him.

[Jo Roam]

But let's just briefly talk about do.

[Antonia]

DM him for his Paramount plus subscription. It is important. It is paramount that you get the subscription.

[Jo Roam]

It is paramount.

[Antonia]

It really is.

[Jo Roam]

Where you get the subscription.

[Antonia]

Paramount.

[Jo Roam]

Yes, it is paramount that you get it done.

[Antonia]

Oh my gosh. Wow.

[Jo Roam]

I might just not just a pretty face. You're not.

[Antonia]

Might just keep that in. Yeah, we might just not cut it out. All of my other shitty jokes today, but that one, that one was a keeper, you guys. I finally done it and now I'm gonna leave. Goodbye guys.

[Jo Roam]

It's been nice to meet you. No, no. Let's wrap it up here. I just want to say a couple of things. This is a hero's journey story and as we said in episode three, I.

[Antonia]

Don'T wanna keep track of this shit. I can't.

[Jo Roam]

Anti hero.

[Antonia]

Antihero. That's right. Wow.

[Jo Roam]

So where. And one of the points of antihero is the first line. I have this thing where I get older but just never wiser. Right? The antihero doesn't get wiser. The hero gets. Acquires wisdom. Right. And brings it back to people and relates it to them. And that's what she does in her songs. And this is a classic hero's journey story against a classic villain, basically is what she's describing. And she is the one who turns the table and triumphs.

[Hallie Keefer]

And.

[Jo Roam]

And this gets back to the question of why, in fact, does she have all these songs about bad or missing fathers? Figures, right? And I think when she says why does she.

[Antonia]

Joseph.

[Jo Roam]

Well, look, I think the point is why did she say in the lead up to this song, these lyrics are my favorite. It's the stuff that I've always wanted to say. And I think the answer is what she's describing here. The stuff, the reason she has all these negative portrayals of fathers. Right. Remember in Life of a Showgirl, right, Kitty, as sung by Sabrina Carpenter, the second verse says, my father whored around as men do. Or as all men do, I guess is what she says. So not such a great father, she says in Cardigan, right? Leaving like a father. Right. In mine she says, a careless, careless.

[Antonia]

Yeah. Careful daughter of a careless father. Careless father's. Careful daughter.

[Jo Roam]

A careless father's. She says, you made a rebel of a careless man's careful daughter.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Jo Roam]

Right. And in Love Story she says, you know, she has the father who says, stay away from Juliet. Right? And then of course, she has the f. The patriarchy in the extended version of All Too well. Right? And then she wrote the man. So she's written a lot of songs. And I think the point is not that she doesn't like her father. She just doesn't like these father figure types. Because Scott Borchetta apparently said to her that, you know, you're sort of. I feel you're like my daughter. And he got, she says she, she got so cute.

[Antonia]

Crazy. Imagine you sell all of your daughter's records. Hey, dad, if I ever become like Weird Al Yankovic and I make a bunch of crazy pop like parodies, I feel like that's the only way that I could get into songwriting. Please don't sell them. I know they'll be really successful because I'm like really brilliant and super cool, but please don't sell them.

[Jo Roam]

I wouldn't, I wouldn't. I, I wouldn't have you sign a contract where you didn't own your own stuff. But here is the statement that she made.

[Antonia]

Not to say that the guy has to be white. Could be any guy. Could be. It could be a woman, though. You could sell it to a woman or non binary person. I'd be okay with that.

[Jo Roam]

Well, in 2019, here is what Taylor wrote. I thought I knew what betrayal felt like, but this stuff that happened with him was a redefinition of betrayal for me. Just because it felt like it was family. SW said of a relationship with Scott Borchetta, to go from feeling like you're being looked at as a daughter to this grotesque feeling of, oh, I was actually his prized calf that he was fattening up to sell to the slaughter, to the slaughterhouse that would pay the most. And she also had another quote, which I think is relevant in 2019. Anytime Scott Borchetta had heard the words Scooter brawn escape my lips, it was when I was either crying or trying not to. Which is what makes the line, I dry your tears with my sleeve so poignant. Because that was the move, the selling of the records. Not just to anybody. Not just to anybody.

[Antonia]

To Scooter Braun, to a man whose name is Scooter.

[Jo Roam]

Indeed.

[Antonia]

I mean, like if your name is a freaking mode of transportation, like, I just, I feel like you can't be trusted, personally speaking.

[Jo Roam]

Well, and you know, the hero's journey story is the one that everyone has to learn. And I do hope that one of the things people take away from the podcast is you should learn how to tell your own hero's journey story. One of the points that we were gonna make about Opalite is that there were two Hero's journey stories, right, in which both of them basically went through the pain of losing the person they had been dating for, for several years. And that led to the key line that she says, failure brings you freedom. Right? And that is the key point of crux of the hero's journey that you have to go through and hit the failure point, the lowest point in your life in order to realize that you are, you are now free and you can turn your life around and understand why you failed and rise again. And so there are a lot of heroes journeys on this album. And just to, you know, close it out, you know, I really think that this is a better thought out album than. Than she's often given credit for this. This song itself connects with a whole lot of the songs on this album. And what, what are your final thoughts?

[Antonia]

My final thoughts are I agree with that. I think people will look at certain lines and they'll be judging the whole album. But I think a lot of the purpose of those more out there lines are so that the album can pop. And, you know, I think people have been looking at the album backwards by thinking that the point is those crazy lines but actually, the whole mating deals with devils because your dick's bigger is just like, you know, shock. That's. That's kind of a literary device in and of itself. I think there's a. There's a way to use those to make your point stick. And I think that's what Taylor's trying to do. If you look at those lines alone, you will not get the point of the songs.

[Jo Roam]

Final thoughts and. And. And relatedly, you know, what she did with the bridge and what she did with the key change is. Is showing that she is also combining the music and the lyrics in a very thoughtful and sophisticated fashion. She clearly has thought out this entire song. She clearly has thought about how it connects to an earlier song of hers, which she does quite often, as we've shown, particularly in season one. And we're gonna do this for every song. And I think these are songs that do merit a second look. And yeah, you can have a hot take if you don't like the song, you don't like the song. We're not here to say. Yeah, but to say these songs are not well thought out or somehow, like, she doesn't have the lyricism she had at the level folklore. But these are well thought out songs. And please follow us and give us good ratings and ask us questions.

[Antonia]

Question ratings. And please find somebody to at least take him to a park or something just like once a week. Maybe even just.

[Jo Roam]

It'd be good to. It'd be good to.

[Antonia]

It would be good if he get outside. He considers his daily walk going up to the little grocery store that. That is two blocks away from him.

[Jo Roam]

It's true.

[Antonia]

It's not Put him. It's somewhere that he can run around for a little bit, touch some grass.

[Jo Roam]

You kind of like a dog park. But.

[Antonia]

But, yeah, like. Yeah, there's a lot of similarities. He just needs to be fed. He just needs to be given his little water and some outdoor time so he can.

[Jo Roam]

Exactly. But I promise you I won't be pooping out. I won't be pooping outdoors or peeing outdoors.

[Antonia]

Well, hey, you know, it's been a hard few weeks on all of us. It's been a hard, you know, government's been shut down. D.C. it's hard. So I'm not judging at least. And alrighty.

[Jo Roam]

Well, this episode is produced by Scott Poarch for Big IP and distributed by Realm. We'll see you the next episode for discussion about the next track of the life of a showgirl, which is eldest.

[Antonia]

Eldest daughter.

[Jo Roam]

Daughter.

[Antonia]

Yeah. I have some thoughts about that one.

[Jo Roam]

Antonia is an eldest daughter.

[Antonia]

Wow. Just by virtue of being.

[Jo Roam]

He's also the only daughter. Yes. You are the youngest daughter and the only daughter and the eldest daughter. Thank you so much.

[Hallie Keefer]

This podcast is dedicated to my younger self because she really needed it. She couldn't keep a man or a job. Welcome to Brokotherapy. I'm your host, Stephanie Makin. I'm your co host, Rose Macalise. Every week we dive into dating, sex and relationships. Who doesn't want like best friend kind of deep conversations? It's about creating a safe space and just having a good time while listening and also crying a little bit. I think there's nothing better than listening to a podcast and crying. That's how all podcasts should be, is you crying silently to yourself. And that's all therapy. And I just want to say that we are not professionals, but you bring professionals on the pod to therapize us to give us some advice. Listen to Rokotherapy wherever you love to listen to podcasts. And head to brokotherapy.com for all the info and the links. Therapy is too expensive. But this podcast isn't.