Taylor’s Top Storytelling Secret plus What But Daddy I Love You REALLY Means | #5

Summary

Decoding Taylor Swift: A Storytelling Revolution

Episode 5: Taylor’s Top Storytelling Secret plus What But Daddy I Love You REALLY Means
Hosts: Joe Romm & Toni Romm
Date: July 29, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this lively and insightful episode, Joe and Toni Romm reveal Taylor Swift's number-one storytelling secret—the power of the word "but." They explore how this deceptively simple word creates memorable, viral, and emotionally resonant stories—and how listeners can leverage this technique themselves. Through Swift’s lyrics and examples from Shakespeare, Lincoln, and pop culture, the hosts break down the mechanics of narrative tension. The second half unpacks Taylor’s latest song “But Daddy I Love Him,” analyzing its meaning, structure, and autobiographical layers, with particular emphasis on how Taylor weaponizes “but” for maximum emotional effect.

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The Power of "But": Taylor’s Top Storytelling Secret

The Technique Explained

• Conflict Creation: The word "but" injects conflict into a narrative, creating tension and intrigue—a key driver for memorability and virality.
• Joe: “You take advantage of a natural disposition in the human mind for conflict, for attention grabbing. And that is what makes the but so beautiful.” (01:56)
• The "But, And, Therefore" (ABT) structure is a secret long used by master storytellers, from Shakespeare to South Park’s creators.

Trey Parker and Matt Stone’s Rule

• Joe explains South Park creators’ simple writing rule: replace as many "ands" as possible with "buts" or "therefores" to improve narrative punch (09:07).
• Analogy: In the Gettysburg Address, Lincoln uses “but” for a lasting impact: “The world will little note nor long remember what we say here, but they will never forget what they did here.” (06:10)

The Narrative Index: Quantifying Storytelling

• Scientist Randy Olson defined the "narrative index": (number of buts / number of ands) × 100. A score above 20 means strong storytelling (10:27).
• Greats:
  • The Sermon on the Mount: 98 ands, 29 buts → index ~30.
  • Shakespeare: ~27-28.
  • The Beatles: ~27-28.
  • Taylor Swift: ~27-28.
  • “But Daddy I Love Him”: 12 buts, 18 ands → index 66, a new record for Swift! (17:04)

Toni’s take: “Stories are memorable because our brains latch onto conflict. People love the juicy goss. Just like they love juicy buts.” (15:49)

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Literary and Pop Examples

Shakespeare’s Volta & Swift’s Lyrics

• Shakespeare used a “volta”—a turn in the sonnet marked often by “but”—to introduce a pivotal twist. Taylor applies similar pivots in her lyrical storytelling (05:29).
• Carly Rae Jepsen’s “Call Me Maybe”: “Hey, I just met you, and this is crazy, but here’s my number, so call me maybe.” (08:41)

Swift’s Usage: Deep Dive into “All Too Well”

• Toni breaks down the lyric: “Now you mail back my things and I walk home alone. But you keep my old scarf from that very first week.” (13:36)
  • Here, “but” introduces a volta: shifting from sadness to a sense of ambiguity or retained connection.
• Another famous “but” line: “You kept me like a secret but I kept you like an oath.” (15:56)
  • Toni: “It’s brilliant in its simplicity. The hinge, the turning point of this line, it all hinges on ‘but.’ That’s what makes it so powerful.” (16:20)

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The Anatomy of “But Daddy I Love Him”

[Discussion begins: 17:04]

Chasing Conflict: Why “But” Dominates

• Setting a record narrative index of 66, this song is propelled by oppositional energy.
• Joe notes: “It’s a strictly oppositional song… There are no SOs or therefore, no resolutions, except (possibly) at the very end.” (24:16)

Notable Lyrics & Choruses

• Chorus: “Now I’m running with my dress unbuttoned, buttoned, screaming, but Daddy, I love him. I’m having his baby. No, I’m not. But you should see your faces.” (19:22)
  • Heavy use of “but” not just for shock or humor but for emotional volatility and tension.
• Multiple “secret buts” are layered in (e.g. “unbuttoned, buttoned” is a hidden play on words).

The Role of Juvenility & Irony

• Toni: “The whole thing is a little juvenile, right? She’s calling her dad Daddy…that’s the point.” (21:27)
• Joe: “She is simultaneously saying things and being ironic at the same time.” (25:19)

The West as Metaphor

• Bizarre opening: “I forget how the West was won.” (32:15)
  • Recognized as a deviation from Swift’s usual foreshadowing openings. Joe proposes it’s a metaphor for whitewashing her own romantic history, paralleling the romanticization of American history (36:40).
  • Toni jokes: “Like, omg. Did she just take a US History course?” (32:24)

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Is “But Daddy I Love Him” About Matt Healy or Travis Kelce?

[Interpretation Debate: 48:02+]

• Joe’s Theory: The song is about Matt Healy. Swift uses “but” to whitewash a failed love, rewriting an unhappy ending into a fictional happy one (53:13).
  • Joe: “She’s taken something that has an unhappy ending and…given it a happy ending.” (56:12)
  • Connects to “Love Story”—Swift’s own 2008 statement about the tantrum that inspired it (30:12).
• Toni’s Take: The song is intentionally vague and about feelings, not a single person. The “we came back when the heat died down” break (53:50) signifies a shift from Healy to Kelce, paralleling Swift’s life transitions.
  • Toni: “I think assigning one person to this song would be a mistake because that would bulldoze over...what she's capable of when it comes to being vague and metaphor.” (50:36)
• Consensus/Compromise: Swift deliberately crafts songs that sustain multiple meanings and interpretations. The strength is in her ambiguity, not specificity.
  • Toni: “I think the real answer is that it probably can be both.” (58:06)
  • Joe: “She puts a lot of different meanings in her songs.” (58:59)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Joe, on storytelling:
  “If what you say is not memorable, it doesn’t matter what you say.” (01:22)
• Toni, on conflict:
  “Humans latch onto conflict. That’s why gossip is such a big thing in high schools, why gossip is a big thing everywhere.” (15:49)
• Joe, on narrative structure:
  “A boring exposition uses the word and too much.” (07:48)
• Toni, on Swift’s technique:
  “She likes butts. What can I say?” (16:55)
• Joe, channeling Taylor's meta-irony:
  “She is presenting a whitewashed version of what actually happened to her.” (36:40)
• Toni, debating Who is “Him”:
  “She never talks about Matty Healy or Travis Kelce in a specific way in this song…It’s a song about a temper tantrum. I think she’s being more metaphorical here.” (50:36)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• Taylor’s storytelling secret revealed: 00:48–04:17
• Origins of the “but” rule (South Park): 03:19–04:29, 09:07–10:27
• The narrative index explained: 10:27–12:03, 17:04
• Shakespearean parallels: 05:29–06:10
• Carly Rae Jepsen slam poetry: 08:41
• Examples from “All Too Well”: 13:36–16:20
• First breakdown of “But Daddy I Love Him”: 17:04–24:28
• Analysis of biblical references (“Sarah and Hannah”): 37:19–38:39
• The Great Debate: Is it about Healy or Kelce?: 48:02–58:59
• Wrap-up & advice for listeners: 60:05–61:26

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Practical Takeaways

• Storyteller’s Assignment:
  “Go take something you are writing and circle the ands and figure out which ones you can turn into buts.” (60:15)
• The “But” Rule: More buts equals more conflict, which equals more powerful, memorable, and viral stories.
• Swift’s Mastery: Taylor Swift’s success as a songwriter and cultural force is deeply tied to her mastery of this technique—and anyone can harness it, from speeches to social posts.

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Conclusion

This episode powerfully demonstrates Taylor Swift’s top storytelling technique: maximizing narrative tension through strategic use of “but.” Joe and Toni unpack not just how Swift does it, but how anyone can use the same formula for unforgettable communication. Through playful banter, literary analysis, and vivid lyrical breakdowns, the Romms reveal that the true art of storytelling lies in embracing conflict—and, of course, the beauty of a well-placed “but.”

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Joe Rome and I'm his daughter, Toni.

[B]

Welcome to Decoding Taylor Swift, where you'll learn the storytelling tools Swift uses that make her a modern day Shakespeare, but.

[A]

Can make you a better communicator so you can drive your mission and build your tribe.

[B]

Rolling Stone magazine put both me and Swift on its list of 100 people changing America. So I know that the most successful social change makers are the best storytellers.

[A]

This podcast will transform how you think about Swift's songs and give you the life changing tools to lead, connect and change the world.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

Hi. Welcome. Yet another round.

[B]

Welcome to episode five, maybe the most important one so far.

[A]

Yes, this is a very important episode because in this episode we're going to teach you the most important simple tool that you will learn about how to, how to tell stories. And not just tell stories. You'll be more convincing. You'll be, you'll be honestly a better friend, frankly, if you're using this, if you're trying to talk down your friend for making a bad choice, if you're trying to describe your hero's journey story to a crowd of people, you're trying to build your resume. You know, this job interview, this is.

[B]

Going to make you more memorable. It's going to make your content more viral.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And as we said about being memorable, if what you say is not memorable, it doesn't matter what you say, it doesn't matter.

[A]

And honestly, there's no such thing as mad Press, so it's better to be remembered for something than to say something good and be remembered for nothing. And this secret, this secret is all about those voluptuous, juicy, juicy buts.

[B]

This secret is about the use of the word but. Yes. And when you master this one word, this'll be the single biggest thing to improve your storytelling because you take advantage.

[A]

Of, of a natural disposition in the human mind for conflict, for attention grabbing. And that is what makes the butt so beautiful.

[B]

And so in the first half of this podcast, we are gonna talk about this and some of the.

[A]

We're talking about. Yeah, butts. We're talking about butts. Beautiful butts.

[B]

Beautiful butts.

[A]

Especially Taylor Swift. We're going to talk about some other great examples of.

[B]

Just talk about the Lincoln. We'll talk about Carly Rae Jepsen, we'll talk about the Sermon on the Mount, all the great speeches. They all use this trick.

[A]

They do.

[B]

And then the second half, we will talk about a certain song of Taylor's. In fact, we'll talk about two songs. We'll talk that use a lot of buts in them.

[A]

Beautiful, beautiful butts.

[B]

All too well. And then, of course, there's no way for us to avoid focusing on this song, which will be, I think, very illuminating.

[A]

So that was But Daddy, I Love him, which in the title uses a juicy, juicy but to convey all of that juicy, juicy information that, that she talks about in the song.

[B]

So why is the word but so important? That's the thing. It can be hard to believe that this simple idea and this actually the basis of what we're saying is actually a rule that Trey Parker and Matt Stone came up with. People who did South Park. Ooh, south park, for which they've won over 10 primetime Emmys. And the monster Broadway smash, the Book of Mormon, the best musical of 2011, for which they won a combined Tony's and two Grammys.

[A]

You don't have to say that. The Book of Mormon is a great musical. You guys should all watch it and listen to it. It's really funny. Andrew Reynolds, My King, plays the main dude. He is a gay icon. We love him.

[B]

And so Trey Parker came up with a very simple rule, and I'm going to simplify this rule even more, which is you look at whatever you've written, and it doesn't matter if it is an essay, if it is certainly a work of fiction, but it could be a blog post. It could be.

[A]

Well, honestly, it could just be a conversation that you're having with somebody. Right. You're trying to convince them of something honest. I mean, it can be in a job interview, it can be. Anytime you're telling somebody about yourself, you always have to make sure to use this.

[B]

Right. So, and, and, and, and what's the background on this? You know, as we've been saying in, in the first four episodes, stories are the most memorable thing that we have.

[A]

Yes, Right.

[B]

And you know how powerful stories are, because if I say to you just two words, Sherlock Holmes, you conjure a whole thing in your head just from two words, right? That is the power of stories. The. We're. We're. We're. We're. And so then the question is, what is the basic structure of stories or narratives that go viral? And we know from the hero's journey that the structure of the basic narrative that goes viral is one where there is some conflict.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That leads to change.

[A]

That leads to change.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because that's what the hero does. They start out one way. They are met with some opposition or a struggle or a challenge, and they go work through that. And Then they become a different thing. Often that combines who they were with the struggle that they overcame.

[A]

Right. And of course, even way back in, you know, 1600 old times, Shakespeare used this technique in his sonnets. You know, you may not know his specific sonnets, but there's always a point in the sonnet that's called a volta, which we also see in some of Taylor's songs we're going to talk about later. And, and this is the most basic trick that he uses where, where there's a point in the sonnet where the tone changes. The think. I mean, the whole story changes. And that's what made him famous for his sonnets was really, you know, even back in the 1500s when he took inspiration from Italians. I mean, this is like one of the most basic, oldest time slash old as, you know, the. At least, you know, the English empire. To talk about stories.

[B]

It's, it's, it's used. I mean, you know, to give a simple example, you know, famously Lincoln says in the Gettysburg Address, the world will little note nor long remember what we say here, but they will never forget what they did here. Right.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Well, I just want to say that Lincoln was being characteristically modest because of course, we do remember that because he's such a great.

[A]

Well, he remembers that. My dad remembers that.

[B]

I do remember that.

[A]

I've never heard that in my life before. But I'm glad that you find that important.

[B]

You're still young.

[A]

Well, now I've heard it.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

You've heard it and now you have.

[B]

Let me make one more one of these wonky points and then we'll dive in a little more. But over 200 years ago, the, the German philosophers, Germans developed the notion of thesis, antithesis and synthesis.

[A]

And you'll say German. You mean Karl Marx. Yes.

[B]

Those people. Yes.

[A]

When people hear.

[B]

Hegel is often associated with this true. And basically the idea is that an idea is posed, it's met with a reaction or a conflicting idea antithesis. And the resolution, the outcome is some synthesis of the two ideas. And that's basically what we're talking about in the Hero's Journey. And we're also talking about. And the simplest way of imagining the conflict or the tension that you get is the word but introduces that conflict or tension. Right. A boring exposure exposition. Uses the word and too much.

[A]

Well, yeah, like I walked the dog to the store and then I got him a little bone and then we saw a bird and then I walked home. But that's so much more interesting if he's saying I was walking to the store to get my dog a bone, but then a bird pooped on my head and just crapped all over me, so I had to walk home with birds all over my head. See, that's a crazy story that is worthy of telling your friends.

[B]

Well, and I would also point out that. That in many cases, you want a resolution of the conflict.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. And that's where the therefore or the so comes in.

[A]

That's the story.

[B]

So a student once asked me in a class for a popular example of this and but so scheme. And I said, well, you remember the song by Carly Rae Jepsen?

[A]

Yeah. And I love this story.

[B]

Do you want to sing it? No, I will just.

[A]

But you can speak it. You can speak it like you're doing slam poetry if you want.

[B]

Hey, I just met you, and this is crazy, but here's my number, so call me maybe.

[A]

That was gorgeous. You should win, like, the National Youth Poet Laureate for that. That was beautiful.

[B]

And what Trey Parker said they figured out is this simple trick, which he called the rule of replacing.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And if you embrace this rule and nothing else we teach you, you will be a better writer than like and speaker than 99% of the people out there.

[A]

It's true.

[B]

At least until more than 1% of the population of the planet listens to this podcast anyway.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

So what he said was he calls it the rule of replacing ands with either buts or therefores.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And it's like this. You look at. He would look at the script for south park, and they would go through and they would circle all of the ends and then say, can we change one of these and to a but to put in a twist or some conflict?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And could we also put in take one of the ands and turn it into a so or therefore?

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so this is sort of sometimes called the and but therefore or abt but I kind of don't. No one uses therefore.

[A]

We just call it the cool rule.

[B]

It is the cool rule. And how this. This rule is so deeply ingrained in writing that a friend of mine, whose name is Randy Olsen, he is a scientist, he was actually a scientist who decided he wanted to become a storyteller. So he went to Hollywood and he studied storytelling. And he is the one who first taught me this whole and but therefore, scheme.

[A]

Shout out, Randy.

[B]

He came out. He came up with something. And we're going to have some math.

[A]

Here, but we're going to have some.

[B]

Math here, but there's going to be Some math. I'm giving you a little warning here.

[A]

So you can cover your ears.

[B]

He came up with this idea of a narrative index where you take the total number of buts in the speech or the song or the book, divide it by the total number of ands, and then multiply that by 100.

[A]

Cool.

[B]

And as it turns out, but as.

[A]

It turns out, but as it turns out.

[B]

Songs, narratives that have a narrative index of more than 20.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know you have 20 butts and 100 ands, right? That's 20. If you. That is something. That is a good, compelling narrative.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And if you're way below that, it's not a good name.

[A]

But if you're way below that.

[B]

If you're way below that. And so, interestingly, for instance, one of the great. Someone would say one of the most well known speeches of all time is the Sermon on the Mount from the Bible. The Bible is one of the. Probably the most published book. Billions and billions of copies. You've heard people hear it over and over again. It has 98 ands and 29 buts. So it has a narrative index of about 30. Wow. Now you can go through the works of Shakespeare are online. So you can look up the buts and usually I also look up the yets and I add them together and I divide them by the ends. And Shakespeare's narrative index is about a 27. 28.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can do it for the Beatles. It's a 27 or 28.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can do it for Taylor Swift.

[A]

Yeah. What's Taylor Swift? People are here for.

[B]

It's about 27 or 28.

[A]

Nice. She's. Hey, she's good at what she does.

[B]

Slays and.

[A]

Okay. He wrote that in his book, by the way. He wrote the word slays in his book. I just want to point that out.

[B]

I've learned so many words.

[A]

Buy his daughter and see. See an old white man put the word slay in a book. Hey, top 10 reasons to buy books.

[B]

I'm a fast learner.

[A]

Please don't let print culture die. We learned about it in US History. And I don't want it to be something that I don't talk to my kids about and bore them with.

[B]

Well, now, here's the interesting thing. Two of Taylor's songs have a very high ratio of buts to ands.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And they happen to be two of my favorites. And the but but. And one of them is considered her greatest song of all time. And which is to say. All too well now. All too well. The 10 and a half minute version.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It has 11 whoa buts and 30 ands. So it's a narrative index that is like in the mid-30s.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So that is big. And let's. Antonia, Tony.

[A]

Oh, hi.

[B]

Oh no, I called her Antonia. A slip of the tongue from calling her her given name for all these years. But, but she goes by Tony.

[A]

But I also sometimes go by Antonia sometimes.

[B]

Anyway, here are some of the the famous butts from all too well, this.

[A]

I think is probably the most helpful, but to demonstrate why it's so important in stories. So this comes at closer to the end of the song when she's kind of lamenting on all of her woes about this kind of a butt cheek. Buttman Jake Gyllenhaal. Now you mail back my things and I walk home alone. But you keep my old scar from that very first week. So right here is an example of what I was talking about earlier. Not to boring you with the, you know, with a technical writing language, but this is a volta. This is a good example of volta. So she's talking in the first part about. Now you mail back my things, yada yada yada. She's talking about how sad she is. Oh no, she's walking home alone. But, but you know what's funny? You know what's so funny? He keeps the scarf. Wow. And so there's a glimmer of maybe, maybe I'm not simply the loser in this situation. Maybe there's more to the story. Maybe I've learned something. Maybe I've learned that this trash butt cheek man, you know, there's, there's, there's a trash portion of him that makes some of this not completely my fault.

[B]

You know, read some of the others. Read, read this famous line.

[A]

Yes, well, this is another famous line. Well, the reason I liked the line before is because it's an example of but being used just by itself to create some sort of effect on the story. It's a volta. But when you talk to people, when you talk to your friends, you know, humans latch onto conflict. They like hearing stories. It's why gossip is such a big thing in high schools, why gossip is a big thing everywhere. People like conflict. They like hearing about the juicy goss, just like they like hearing about juicy butts. And that's why this line is, is so important because even though the only really technique that she's employing here is, is but it just works wonders. So the other one that my father wanted to me to read is you kept me like a secret But I kept you like an oath. Now, this is antithesis, and it's also parallel because she. She uses, you know, you kept me like a secret. And, you know, obviously keeping somebody like a secret is like, that's kind of a dick thing to do. Like, oh, my gosh. Like, what? Unless it's, you know, hot.

[B]

Which is why they go upstate all the time saying she doesn't. She always. He always dates her in the. In the. In the.

[A]

I know. Wtf. What's up, State? There's, like, freaking gas stations with her in Manhattan. Disgusting. Yeah. Nobody likes upstate New York. Sorry, dad. Even though that's where he's from anyway. But I kept you like an oath. Keeping somebody like an oath, that's like, oh, I love you so much. You're like an oath. Wow. So, you know, it's an easy line to understand, but. But it's. In its simplicity. It's brilliant. And the. The hinge, the turning point of this line, it all hinges on. On but. The but is what makes it so powerful because that keeps the beautiful parallel of the sentence, makes it memorable because people latch on to the part of it that's clearly a conflict. You know, they're two conflicting ideas that she's using. But ties them together, makes it easy to understand.

[B]

Yeah. And. And she uses a lot of. And is there any more here?

[A]

She likes butts. What can I say?

[B]

Or should we just dive into?

[A]

Well, the people came here for butt. Daddy, I Love him, so let's give them what they want.

[B]

So. But Daddy, I Love him holds the world record for Taylor for the narrative index because it has 12 buts, not counting the title, but only 18 ands. So its narrative index is like 66.

[A]

66.

[B]

It's 66. Got a lot of butts. You threw in the title. Which you should.

[A]

Which you should. I mean, staring at the word right when you're watching. When you're listening on Spotify, if you just stare at the title for like, four minutes, and boom.

[B]

And what's more, as we are about to see, she has two secret but.

[A]

Secret.

[B]

Which shows that she really understands how important the word but is. Because she put in two.

[A]

Or does she keep the butts like an oath?

[B]

Possibly.

[A]

That was a call, Mac.

[B]

Anyway, certainly not a secret. Except. Well, these are secrets. These are secret butts.

[A]

These are little secret butts. It's so pretty cool.

[B]

My daughter is going to force me.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

To read this because she thinks it's funny.

[A]

I think it's funny that I read this because it's an old man. Haha. Talking about pregnancy and how he's pregnant. So you should read it.

[B]

Spoil the joke up front.

[A]

No, but I'm going to now. You should read it. Maybe we can cut that part out so they don't know. How funny.

[B]

Oh, Wheels, just talk about. The listeners have no idea how much stuff has been cut out of this. I mean, we've. We've actually been in this room for like two hours now, and you've gotten, I don't know, 10 minutes of good stuff.

[A]

I know. We've actually been here for two full days. They're keeping us here. They're putting us on IVs, and we've cut all that out.

[B]

We. We sweat it out for you. It's like one of those.

[A]

Oh, my God. We give everything for the fans. Please give us money and listen to us.

[B]

Our engineer here is. Is like some.

[A]

Our poor engineer.

[B]

And he just says, no, that doesn't work. You have to do a reason work.

[A]

He cuts it out and then he threatens our cats. He's gonna go to our house. Please listen to our podcast.

[B]

You're not being funny enough. I'm not gonna give you a bottle of water.

[A]

Yeah, he'll. He's threatening us anyway. But. But moving on, because now he's glaring at us. Because now the jig is up.

[B]

You do not want to be glared at by your engineer.

[A]

No, you do not.

[B]

He could be muting you and you don't even know it.

[A]

No, he put chips in our brain.

[B]

So here is the chorus of But Daddy, I love you, which is very impressive because it has three butts in it.

[A]

Whoa.

[B]

There are not many choruses in any song in the world, and it has a secret one.

[A]

So anyway, Secret butt.

[B]

Now I'm running with my dress unbuttoned, buttoned, screaming, but Daddy, I love him. I'm having his baby. No, I'm not.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

But you should see your faces.

[A]

You read that like an anime girl.

[B]

I'm telling him, no, I'm not To floor it through the fences. No, I'm not coming to my senses. I know he's crazy, but he's the one I want.

[A]

You should become an actor. That was beautiful. You poured your heart and soul into that.

[B]

It was like the. To be or not to be speechless.

[A]

Something overtook you. It's the fear that our engineer won't give us water.

[B]

I really got into that, I must say. So this is very unique. I mean, there's so much going on in this chorus. Yes, this is certainly just to be Clear.

[A]

But it all works.

[B]

This is a bonkers song. I mean, bonkers. He just. She's, she's. And by the way, personally, this is an important song to me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just like. Because it's addressed to me. But daddy, I love him. Right. And not only that, she is screaming at. So she is. This is a song about Taylor screaming to her father. Yeah, but daddy, I love him.

[A]

Right. And the way the. The reason that she's not just saying, daddy, I love him, or. Or, you know, I. I love him is because. But is she's communicating a conflict that we can't see clearly. Daddy or dad is not okay with this love.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

That's what makes it so memorable.

[B]

Title. Right. It's the title of the song where daddy, I love him. That's just right. Okay. I'm telling you a fact. Daddy, I love him. When you throw in the butt and it becomes, but, Daddy, I love him. Now someone is intrigued. Well, okay. Why doesn't her daddy like him right now? So that's sort of one interesting point. Then she goes totally bonkers and says, I'm having his baby.

[A]

Yeah, man, you're worse.

[B]

No, I'm not. But you should see your faces. Okay, so a little bit juvenile. She is.

[A]

Well, of course, the whole thing is a little juvenile. Right. She's calling her dad daddy.

[B]

Right. And we will come back to this because the fact that she's being juvenile in this song is kind of one of the points of it. It's true, but. So she's actually now running through town. She's not just saying this to her father. She's just saying this to get a reaction to people.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And because we see your faces.

[A]

Well, exactly. She's getting a reaction from people.

[B]

People.

[A]

That's what she wants. That's why she puts so many butts in the song, because butts get reactions from people. And the whole point of the song is getting reactions. You know, she wants good reactions, but getting bad reactions is a central part of the song.

[B]

Right. And. And to be clear, this guy is one of his. Her typical bad boys.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Right. I don't think she makes any secret of it. Right. She says, yeah, I'm telling him to floor it. Through the fences. And just to be clear, she has this thing about guys who drive fast and perhaps don't even look at the lights when she goes through them.

[A]

As in all too well and in style.

[B]

Oh, my God, in style.

[A]

Yeah, she just like. I feel like I just want to, like, shout out to Taylor Swift right now because, like, Wherever you are, bae, you deserve men that, like, follow traffic safety regulations.

[B]

Well, don't even get us started on a getaway car.

[A]

Well, I just, like. I just, like, don't know. Like, wherever. Like Tom Holland. Or not Tom Holland. Never him. Tom Hiddleston, wherever he is. And same with Jake Gyllenhaal. I hope you guys get, you know, renew your driver's license and retake all those tests, because it's. It's seriously concerning how much you're being outed as shitty drivers.

[B]

And so she's. She tells the guy to floor to the fences, and this time, of course, it's not entirely his fault because she says, fell out to the fences.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So she's goading him on, and then. No, I'm not coming to my senses. No, I know he's crazy, but he's the one I want.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. So this. We're now getting a picture for why her father may not be so thrilled with this guy.

[A]

Right. Because, I mean, hey, dude's running red lights, you know, he's crazy.

[B]

He's crazy.

[A]

That's a crazy thing to do. I bet he doesn't even use his turn signals now. That's a crazy thing to do.

[B]

So the key question here. One of the things that she has done by saying, I'm having his baby. No, I'm not. Is she's kind of saying. I'm saying stuff that isn't true just to get a reaction.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So this is gonna raise. This makes her an unreliable narrator and raises the question of. Are there other parts of this song that may not be quite so reliable?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Clearly, she. She's writing to get reactions from people. That's how, you know. Right. And so that's why she's putting so many butts in here too. I just want to emphasize how beautiful butts are.

[B]

Right. She is. This is a strictly oppositional song.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That's why there are no. I mean, I didn't look really closely, but there's no SOS or therefore, there's no resolutions here, except at the very end.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And we will get to whether that is, in fact, a resolution.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So let's start at the beginning here. I forgot.

[A]

Well, hold on, hold on, hold on. What are we doing now?

[B]

We're gonna go and analyze the whole song.

[A]

The whole song. We should make that clear that this is the part of the podcast where we're gonna do that.

[B]

We can do that. We could even be doing that right now. Whoa.

[A]

Oh, my God. This is so meta. I just figured we would cut that out. Oh, my gosh, you guys. This is a behind the scenes look at how we make our decisions. This is so crazy that you guys are even hearing this and our engineer isn't looking. So don't worry, you're safe. But yeah, right now, this is the point in the podcast where we're, I don't know, going to switch over to analyzing the actual song. We're going to give you some fun tidbits for all you swifties as. As people like to say anyway.

[B]

And this song is, for me, one of the hardest to figure out everything she's doing because she is simultaneously saying things and being ironic at the same time. And so there's interpretations online are kind of all over the map. On one level, we are told this song is about Matt Healy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

A boy.

[A]

Which in the first part, I think it certainly is.

[B]

Right. So there's a consensus that at least the first two thirds of the song is about Matt Healey, which. And who was Matt Healey? Maybe three fifths tell us who Matt Healy was.

[A]

Well, until his tragic death. No, I'm just kidding. You just said was. That was a little weird. Matt Healy's very much still alive.

[B]

Matt Healy, he's just not associated with Taylor Swift.

[A]

He's a questionable character. No offense to Matt Healy. He's. He's a singer in the 1975, which is a pop rock band. And they dated for a bit. They dated for a few months, a year, something like that. And he's a little cuckoo banana cray cray. You know, he does weed, he smokes, he does all the things he's known for being a little bit of a spectacle when he's on stage. He's made some comments and some choices that have been a little acist Ray or racist people who can't speak pig Latin. But, you know, basically who he is, he's kind of a controversial guy.

[B]

And no offense to Matt, her fan base was particularly critical of him. And when she started dating him.

[A]

We just want what's best. I'm just kidding.

[B]

They kind of leaped on her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And more than they normally do, I think, because he said some things, tweets and other things.

[A]

He's done a little bit of a. Yeah.

[B]

So we don't have to go into the details of it.

[A]

It's not great. No, not great. I read an article before we did this. It's not great. And, yeah, apologies to Ice Spice.

[B]

So. So it's understandable why if to the extent that, again, is the person in the Song. Taylor Swift. Or is it. There's a person in the song.

[A]

Well, of course, when you write poetry, you're. You know, we don't live in a magical world where words rhyme and sentences. Sentences have structure. So inherently, poems are different. Right. From the actual person.

[B]

We shouldn't go around saying that the person in the song.

[A]

But it. But it is clearly Taylor writing in a biographical sense, and she likes to write in biographical.

[B]

And I think partly it's something she likes to do, but I think also rather shrewdly.

[A]

Right. We.

[B]

We are moved by stories.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Right. Simply because of the. Listening to a story. We listen to a story and we can cry over people breaking up who don't exist.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or someone dying. Hamlet dies, we might cry. But Hamlet never existed. We know he never existed.

[A]

We know he never existed.

[B]

That's the power of stories.

[A]

Yeah. Because who would name their kid Hamlet? It's a weird name.

[B]

It's clearly. We're gonna go have more emotional connection if we think the person in the song is real.

[A]

Sure. Or if they have characteristics that make them seem real. Like how when we look at, like, a light socket, we're like, omg, it's a face. And then, you know.

[B]

So one of the things that Taylor's doing in her songs is connecting herself as the protagonist of the song.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And that gets us even more emotionally committed.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

All right, so let's see what happens in the course of this song.

[A]

Let's see. Well, we know she's not pregnant.

[B]

And first of all, the title. But Daddy, I love him.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Now, on the one hand, that is famously from a fairy tale that she is known to very much love.

[A]

Which fairy tale?

[B]

The Little Mermaid.

[A]

Oh, well, yeah. Right, right, right, right, right. Oh, my gosh, I remember that. I haven't seen that movie in so long. Yes. The Little Mermaid. Land of mermaids.

[B]

Mermaids. Ariel says this to her father because he, like the father here, is not happy that Ariel is in love with. She's a mermaid.

[A]

A landman.

[B]

He's a landman from the land. Yeah. He's Billy Bob Thornton for those who are watching the TV series. But, no, this is a real landman. This is a prince who happens to live on land.

[A]

And it's important to know that she's kind of. By saying that. Implying that her boyfriend is, like, a prince and, like, he's not actually crazy. He's like, fine, but yeah. So that's why he's. She's making all these illusions. And we can talk about illusions in another episode, but I do want illusions.

[B]

I do illusions. I do want to put out here now.

[A]

Put it out. Spit it.

[B]

That. When this song came out, People uncovered a 2008 interview Taylor gave gasp. About the song Love Story.

[A]

Gasp.

[B]

And it went a little bit like this.

[A]

Don't sue us. Just really like to write songs about boys. And this is a song that I wrote about a boy who I liked, but my parents didn't. I remember screaming something like, but, Daddy, I love him, and running out and storming into my room and slamming the door. And then I sat down on the floor and wrote this song. So thank you for rewarding that behavior. Yay. So the. So the bottom line is we should enable Taylor Swift more. Anyway.

[B]

So the bottom line is that, yes, this is a reference to her. One of her favorite stories, but at the same time, it's also a reference to. To Love Story, which we will come back to.

[A]

Anyway.

[B]

Now, as you know, I tend to obsess over songs.

[A]

Yeah, it's like. It's like a problem. If you listen to this podcast and give us money, I will personally pay for him to have a vacation where he doesn't just sit around and listen to songs. Please, you are paying for him to get out of the house. He's like a productive. Well, I hate to say it, but he does sit around and do things on his computer all day. So please give us money so I can take him outside of the house. Go. Go with a walk. Go on a walk with him. You know, we'll give him some sunlight, give him some good grass.

[B]

A fundraising telethon, I think it is.

[A]

And because if you give us money, I will take him outside so he can become a person.

[B]

Vacation. Would it be if I couldn't get to listen to a Taylor Swift song? Get him a girlfriend 40, 50 times. So the first line of this song. You don't have to listen to this song very long before it gets very bizarre.

[A]

It does get very bizarre.

[B]

This song has the most unusual opening line, I would argue, of any song.

[A]

It's really weird. Yeah, it's.

[B]

The opening line of this song is, I forget how the west was won. I forget if this was ever fun.

[A]

What the. Like, like, omg. Did she just take a US History course?

[B]

I forget how the west was won.

[A]

Like, yeah, why are you forgetting, girl? Like, don't you have an AP exam to study for? Omg.

[B]

Now, let's be clear here. She never comes back to this at all. Yeah, she never says anything.

[A]

She's just dropping Mexican American warlord and leaving. I Guess like, that's like, why would she.

[B]

So on the one hand, we have this out of the blue opening sentence.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I've looked online. People don't spend a lot of time trying to explain why she did this because it's.

[A]

Well, maybe she just wanted to tell people that she just forgot how the west was won. Maybe she just wanted to, like, let people know so somebody would, like, message her and like, tell her about the Mexican American.

[B]

The only flaw in that hit me up.

[A]

Taylor.

[B]

In the very first episode, we had a long discussion of the how much she loved foreshadow.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And how the opening lines of her.

[A]

Songs and plot twist. At the end of this, it turns out her boyfriend was the Mexican American war the whole time.

[B]

No.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The. The point is, in all of our other songs, like let's say any hero. The subject of the third episode.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Where she says, I have this thing where I get older but just never wiser. Right. Okay. Well, that makes a lot of sense. And in I knew you were trouble. It's once upon a time, a few mistakes ago. Okay. Well, that's just foreshadowed. This is another mistake of her. She's going out with a guy she knew was trouble. And, you know, we've been through that.

[A]

So she caused the Mexican American war. Exactly, is what she's saying.

[B]

And as we saw with the very last episode where we did Mastermind, she's the mastermind. She begins that song I knew you were.

[A]

She actually discovered gold in California. What's a real historical fact?

[B]

How does that opening A Mastermind is.

[A]

Once upon a time upon a time, the planets and the fates and all the stars aligned.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Beautiful.

[B]

As we explained, Mastermind is the same as same basic beginning storyline.

[A]

Yes. Well, what this is all trying to say is that her beginnings always are foreshadowed. They always mean that it's going to come up at the end. It's going to be related to something.

[B]

So we're going to have to figure out what. I forget how the west was one meant. Or else we really can't claim to understand what this song means.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

You're going to have somebody. Whatever you believe the song means.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You should explain. Why would she drop this into the beginning of her song Now? I think I have an explanation. You might have to sit through 15 minutes of going through this song to get there.

[A]

Oh, my God. Because it's tell the people.

[B]

It's too hard to believe.

[A]

What I already said that she started the Mexican American war. I feel like that's hard to believe. I think that's the explanation. Right. It's all a metaphor. She speaks a metaphor.

[B]

Want me to tell them what I think it means right up front?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And not hold it to the back?

[A]

Yes. Tell them now.

[B]

What is it?

[A]

People want to know. Vote in the comments.

[B]

What does it mean to say I forget how the west was wondering.

[A]

Okay, well, you haven't studied for your AP exam.

[B]

The west was one exists on two levels.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

There is the myth that is commonly talked about and often featured in many movies.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Which is kind of whitewashed.

[A]

Yeah. Famous painting of a big old white lady flying over all the white men.

[B]

Then there's the actual way the west was won.

[A]

Sure. Which involved and killing poor Mexicans.

[B]

Fomenting a war with Mexico. Killing people and get their land.

[A]

Yeah, man. Hey, man.

[B]

You could argue there's.

[A]

Was that James Polk.

[B]

I. Well, you studied it. You just studied it.

[A]

But the point is, even though it.

[B]

Was a year, there's two versions of how the west was won. And when someone says I forget how the west was won, you might take that to mean they're forgetting the truth and they're trying to just remember the whitewashed version. Whoa. So it is my belief and I argue, your honor and ladies and gentlemen.

[A]

Of the jury in this essay I will.

[B]

That she is going to present a whitewashed version of what actually happened to her.

[A]

Omg.

[B]

And when I'm done, you're gonna say, wow, he was right.

[A]

Omg.

[B]

Omg. Okay, so the song continues. I forget if this was ever fun. I just learned these people only raise you to cave.

[A]

Yeah. This is an angsty song. Basically.

[B]

In their Sunday best clutching their pearls, sighing. What a mess.

[A]

Who the hell are Sarah and Anna?

[B]

I just learned these people try and save you cuz they hate you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Whoa. So now Gez, she has leaped over into some religious thing. Cuz Sarah's and Hannah's in their Sunday best.

[A]

Well, yeah. I mean, she was ra. She was born and raised in Pennsylvania. Famous land of Amish and Puritan peoples.

[B]

We could have a long discussion what Sarah's and Hannah's are. Let's take it for now that they're biblical names.

[A]

They are biblical names.

[B]

Some point to really understand them. Maybe when we get to the well.

[A]

No, no, no, no. Tell. Tell them what Sarah's and Hannah's are. Why that's so important Because Sarah and Hannah. They're not biblical names chosen.

[B]

No.

[A]

They're not accident.

[B]

They're not. Both of them were famously did not have. Could not have children.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

At least until they were very old.

[A]

Very, very old.

[B]

And therefore, Sarah, the someone else, a surrogate, had to have the kids with the man in question. In this. In the case of Sarah, she was the wife of Abraham. She had been promised that she would create a great civilization. And at the age of 90, if one is to believe the Bible, she finally did have kids. She did have Isaac, who led to.

[A]

Isaac the children of Israel.

[B]

At some level, she is mentioning this because the implication being she doesn't have a child.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. And so she has faced some criticism for not having a child. And she's bringing that up.

[A]

Yeah. Which is like, leave her alone. Lol. Do you want her to make music or not?

[B]

Right. And of course, that's part of the reason why. Why, presumably she goes up to these people and says, I'm having his baby.

[A]

And then they're like, no, I'm not.

[B]

Just kidding.

[A]

And the other thing is that whenever she talks, it's. She's also highlighting how antithetical and stupid her whole debate around her having kids is, is because, I mean, think about, oh, how you, the listener at home, would feel if you found out that she was having Maddie Healy's kid. Would you like that? Would you like that? I don't think you would, and I don't think many people would. And I think that's the whole point, is that if she's in this position where people want her to settle down, have a kid, they're like, oh, when's she gonna do it? What's her kid gonna look like? Is her kid gonna be talented? And stuff? And. And then at the end of the day, it's like, well, imagine, like, any of the dudes she's dating. Do you want, like. I like. Well, hey, I. You know, Tom Hiddleston is a tall glass of water slash milk/oj. So I wouldn't mind that.

[B]

Anyway, let me zoom forward.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With the song.

[A]

So then she sings glossing over feminism. I guess he just hates women. Look at him. He just does.

[B]

We got a long song to go through here.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah, I know. That's why I dragged you here. My daughter is because. Because I. I don't want to hear my Gen Z daughter.

[A]

He doesn't like feminism.

[B]

I do. It's all, you know, whatever.

[A]

But go Beyonce, because she had a kid and she's still working and putting out songs, so, period.

[B]

We can have a digression.

[A]

And not to flex on you. Not to flex on you at home, but we actually saw the Beyonce concert. So this.

[B]

We're recording this after seeing her just a couple days ago.

[A]

It was pretty dope, I can't lie. Yeah, and.

[B]

And yeah, I mean, go see the Cowboy Carter tour if they come. Just that.

[A]

I mean, it's just like an amazing concert, man.

[B]

It is amazing.

[A]

Taylor Swift and Beyonce, probably the two greatest female singers. Probably.

[B]

And I don't think there's any question about that.

[A]

And.

[B]

And they are like, imagine.

[A]

Imagine your name is Beyonce. Like, how crazy is that? Like, you're literally Beyonce. Anyway, whatever. I love Beyonce.

[B]

So let's go on with too high a horse for a simple girl to rise above it they slam the door on my whole world the one thing I want she just wanted the whole world Again, this is a very over the top line.

[A]

Yeah, she just wants her boyfriend, basically, you know, And. And so first of all, they forbade her from dating.

[B]

So this too high a horse for a simple girl. Well, okay, Taylor is not a simple girl. Whatever you want to call Taylor Swift, she is not a simple girl. So she's being a little ironic here.

[A]

Yeah, she's just being open.

[B]

But then she's like the one thing on my whole world, the one thing I wanted. So we're to believe that this man is her whole life is the one thing she wanted in the whole world. I'm a little skeptical. Okay, now she has the course.

[A]

We're just ragging on Matty Healy sounds like he's probably like, probably like.

[B]

And now we do the whole course. And I forgot. Did I explain what the secret butt was?

[A]

Yes, I think you did the button running with my dress unbutton button.

[B]

Right. So that was the secret. But in the chorus.

[A]

Everybody loves a good secret, but they do. Yeah.

[B]

Get through the chorus and go to.

[A]

Oh, my God. Wait. And if she's running with her dress unbuttoned, that means perhaps her real butt is visible. So she's actually layering it.

[B]

Well, I heard some people, young women on a podcast, discuss exactly what it meant to run with your dress unbuttoned. It's obviously ambiguous as to exactly how much is unbuttoned. You could have a couple of buttons. That would be no big deal. You could have a whole lot of buttons. In which case, if you are in fact running through town with your dress unbuttoned screaming, I, daddy, I love him and hate, but I'm having his baby.

[A]

Maybe you're having, like an episode or something.

[B]

I don't know about that. Now, she does say, by the way, in the video, that. Which we didn't play the part where she. She called this her one epic teenage tantrum that she ever threw in her whole life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So whether you accept that or not.

[A]

But that's what she said in Everybody Deserves that.

[B]

Okay. Dutiful daughter. All my plans were laid Tendrils tucked into a woven braid.

[A]

Yes. She's great with. With visual language, like tendrils tucked into a woman braid because she's, you know, she's like. I don't know the word for that, but whatever the sound like, that's her as a kid, you know, growing up precocious.

[B]

Skipping over that sometimes means not growing up at all.

[A]

I really like that line.

[B]

Yeah, It's a very important line in the song.

[A]

In another song, she. She talks about how she was so ahead of the curve that the curve became a story sphere, and she fell behind her classmates. It's kind of a little bit like that. She's. When you grow up precocious, it means you grow up kind of being more mature than everybody. You grow up being inquisitive. Naturally you're smarter. Sometimes that leads you to believe that you can stay like that. And then once everybody kind of ends. Ends that phase, they're kind of blah. Adult you.

[B]

Well, she never leave. Right. Look, she's saying if we were to take her literally.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

She didn't grow up.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

And again, that's one of the points of this song. She's acting a bit childishly here.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And this whole. She writes a lot of songs about not growing up.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And after all, anti hero. Right. I have this thing where I get older but just never wiser.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's the whole point of any hero.

[A]

Well, it's hard to keep writing songs with the same amount of heart and soul that you once had as a teenager when she started, when you're, like, in your 30s. So clearly she is, you know, on the younger side, you know, vivacious mentally, you know.

[B]

And this is Tortured Poets Department.

[A]

Yeah, this is.

[B]

So let's see this also. This also has the song Peter.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Now, that song is about Peter Pan, or at least it has a running theme of Peter Pan, because she's constantly complaining that you said you were gonna grow up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But you never did.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. So. And of course, she famously has the song where she's stuck in the cafe and everyone else moves on, but she doesn't.

[A]

Oh, what, the black dog?

[B]

No, no, no, no, no. Much earlier in her career, she has the song I'm still sitting here in the caf In. In this you moved on. Everyone else moved on.

[A]

I think he knows more songs than me, which is a little weirder. I can't lie, because he's, like, in his, like, 60s.

[B]

I am. The point is, she writes a lot about not growing up now. Now she switches over to him. He was chaos. He was revelry.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Bedroom eyes like a remedy, period. Not turned on. Soon enough, the elders had convened down at the city hall. Stay away from her. The saboteurs protested too much. Lord knows the words we never heard. Just screeching tires and true love. So with the screeching tires again, because.

[A]

You know, you know, gotta have some, some auditory imagery, you know, and have.

[B]

To be putting the pedal to the metal.

[A]

Pedal to the metal.

[B]

So some people have interpreted this song as being critical of her fans.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And saying that, claiming that what she's saying is, mind your own business right now. I don't think that's what she means because she's always shared a lot with her fans.

[A]

Well, and then later, later in this song, she says, God save the most judgmental creeps who say they want what's best for me. So I personally don't consider myself a creep, but that's just because I don't listen to Radiohead that often. But, you know, I'm sure she probably means the media and. Right. People who will overtly judge her. People who will loudly judge her.

[B]

I just don't think she's criticizing her fans because A, she doesn't criticize her fans, and B, why would you criticize your fans for being unhappy with you going out with a bad guy when you've sung dozens of songs about you went out with a bad guy and you crashed and burned? Right, Dear John? Right. You sang all too well. All these songs.

[A]

Don't say it. Don't spray it, dude.

[B]

Or okay, so we have the chorus again, and we finished the chorus, and then she says, I'll, I'll tell you something right now. I'd rather burn my whole life down than listen to one more second of all this bitching and moaning. Well, that's kind of, that's silly. I mean, I, I, I understand she's using hyperbole, but obviously nobody would burn their whole life down just to avoid listening to one second of all this bitching and moaning.

[A]

Well, this is a teenage temper tantrum.

[B]

It is a teenage temper tantrum. Exactly.

[A]

Well, let's get to the part I of the song that I think is most interesting. That we came back.

[B]

That's right. So let's jump to the Part at the end. So there's a lot of people in the town that I bestow upon my fakest smiles Real. Right. So this again is all them unreliable narrators. Right. She can pretend to be something she's not.

[A]

Yeah. Which is telling us here that she's doing that.

[B]

Right. Scandal does funny things to pride but brings lovers closer. Right. We still don't know what. There's no scandal stated other than people.

[A]

Got mad that she was with Matt Ealy. Right.

[B]

It's not really a scandal, but she's calling it a scandal. So now here's where the. The rubber meets the road on what this song actually means.

[A]

What does that mean?

[B]

We came back when the heat died down Went to my parents and they came around all the wine moms are still holding out but fuck them, it's over we're gonna get fine Now I'm dancing in my dress in the sun and even my daddy just loves him yeah.

[A]

Anyway, so. So you think that this song is just about Matty healing?

[B]

I do.

[A]

And I disagree with you.

[B]

Right. Why do you disagree with me?

[A]

No, you get to go first.

[B]

I will go first. Um. It's the same guy. We came back when the heat died down Went to my parents, and they came around. It sounds like we're talking about the same guy because you come around to liking someone you didn't like before. You don't come around to liking somebody new. You give the new person a new chance. And we came back. So that is piece one, then.

[A]

Can I refute piece one?

[B]

You could.

[A]

Okay. I think that. That. I don't think that is a interpretation that I agree with, because I think in songs like, so High School, it's quite clear who she's talking about, which is Travis Kelsey. Like, you know how to ball. She never talks about Matty Healy or Travis Kelsey in a specific way in this song. She says him, but, Daddy, I love him. It's. It's a song about a temper tantrum. It's a song about feelings, and I think. I think assigning one person to it, especially since she's said, you know, many of her songs are vague. They're not about one person. I think that would be a mistake. I think she's being more metaphorical here. She's focusing more on feeling. So it says, we came back when the heat died down Yada yada Went to my parents and they came around. I think, as you've said before, she has questionable taste in men. Right. Like, how much would you trust a girl? Girl who is consistently Broken up with dudes because they're kind of dicks to her. Right. How much would you trust her? Right? It takes probably a lot of convincing to be like, no, this is the boyfriend that I promise you is a real stand up guy. This is the one man. And okay, coming around to the fact that she's having a boyfriend, that there is a hymn to love, I think also makes sense in the context of the song. And I think, I think assigning one person to, to this song specifically would be a mistake because that would kind of bulldoze over all of what she's capable of when it comes to being vague and metaphor. I think the point of the song is that it is vague, but the feeling, the emotion is not vague. Right. The angst.

[B]

And I'm not done with my case.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. Speak your mind, King.

[B]

I guess so she's now she's dancing in my dress in the sun Daddy. And even my daddy just loves him I'm his lady and oh my God, you should see your friends faces time, doesn't it give some perspective? And no, you can't come to the wedding. I know he's crazy, but he's the one I want. I'll tell you something right now. You ain't got to pray for me. Me and my wild boy and all this wild joy. He was chaos. He was revelry. If all you want is gray for me, then it's just white noise and it's my choice. Okay?

[A]

So yes, go off King. Please convince us it's the same guy.

[B]

He's still crazy, he's still chaos and he's still revelry. And that does not describe Travis Kelsey.

[A]

Yes, it does. And let me tell you why he screamed in the face of his little, of his little coach. He was cray cray. And you know what, with the amount of brain damage that football players have right now, I like can't believe that they're not all a little bit insane in the head. Like to go out and play on a field where basically you're literally just getting brain damage and then you get paid a million dollars for your skull to get bashed in. And then you just stop at like a young age and you're just set for life. But then you get. What is it? Cbt. Definitely not cbt. That whole horrible brain disease where you're anyway, not to scare Travis Kelce if he's listening to this, which he definitely should but won't be. But you know, I mean, I just.

[B]

Think give, give, give us a Chance. Give Travis a chance.

[A]

I mean, I'm sure that that's what it is, but that's what she's talking about right here. Here, let me look at this. Let me look at this lyric. Okay, so it's. He says, she says, time doesn't give some perspective. Right. She wasn't with Maddie Healy for that long and there weren't points that were like, you know, you know, super duper secretive that like, you know, I'm sure they got to know each other, but. But I think the point is, is that there was a break between Matty Healey and Travis Kelce. And I think she realized that it doesn't matter how crazy the guy she's with is. It matters that she doesn't feed into other people's, you know, other people's fears. She doesn't let them affect what she wants. So when she's saying time, doesn't he. Doesn't it give some perspective? I know he's crazy, but he's the one I want. It's just her accepting the fact that she has friggin crazy taste in men. And hopefully Travis Kelce is going to be, you know, chaos and revelry, but that's okay. You know, he's a good kind of chaos and revelry.

[B]

And all this would make good sense because it does.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Except for you. Two things.

[A]

Okay. Yes. Spill, dish.

[B]

I forget how the west was won.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

She'S whitewashing the actual story. You're saying that it's Travis because it has a happy ending. And I'm saying that she's making up this happy ending.

[A]

Well, I'm saying there's a volta right here. It says we came back when the heat died down. And that it's a very. It's a very odd part of the song and it's very noticeable because the song seems like it's going to end. The first time I listened to it, I was like, oh, wow. So you know, it's a three minute song. The song is like four and a half, five minutes, if I'm remembering correctly.

[B]

Four and a half.

[A]

We came back when the heat died down. The drums start in again and the whole song kind of keeps going. That break represents, in my opinion, the breakup with Matty Healy and the transition to Travis Kelce. She's glossing over so many things. She's whitewashing the portion of that that was the transition period. Because it's hard to get broken up with somebody. That's what I can do with a broken heart is about this song is the whitewashed version. It's an easy to take. You know, she dated a bad dude, but now she's with a good crazy dude. And both dudes were crazy, but she's with a better dude now. And she doesn't listen to what people think of her. I think that's the whitewashed part. But go off whatever you believe.

[B]

There's one more.

[A]

Oh, my God. Yes. Hit me.

[B]

So this song we know is connected to Love Story because she said in 2008, that's when she first said, screaming, but, Daddy, I love him.

[A]

But she could have just remembered that she said that. And she was like, hey, that's a catchy.

[B]

She could. Except Love Story is parallel with this song. Right. Because.

[A]

Expound, King, expound.

[B]

Well, this is about Romeo and Juliet and the forbidden love.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And my daddy said, stay away from Juliet.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Right. So that's the same thing. And in fact, she said, we keep quiet because we're dead if they knew. Right. She is retelling the Roman Juliet story and it's that these are two feuding families. And the father is never going to tolerate him. The boy going out with her. And in fact, she says, romeo saved me. They're trying to tell me how to feel again. Just like this song. Then she goes, is this in my head? I don't know what to think. He knelt to the ground and pulled out a ring and said, marry me, Juliet. You'll never have to be alone. I love you. And that's all I really know. I talked to your dad. Go pick out a white dress, period. Right. This is the Romeo and Julie's story.

[A]

Right. And you're.

[B]

She whitewashed. She has taken the actual ending of this play where they both die and spoiler alert. Sorry.

[A]

Jesus Christ.

[B]

You don't know the. I ruined another one. Another one of Shakespeare's tragedies. I've ruined by surprising you that both characters.

[A]

There are high schools listening to this. Maybe.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Yes, jk, you should know.

[B]

She is comparing this song.

[A]

So does Hamlet. Hamlet dies too. Sorry.

[B]

She's taken something that has an unhappy ending and she's given it a happy ending. And what I am saying that this song really means is she is singing about Matt Hill, Matt Healy. And she is dissing all these people who said, oh, you didn't like Matt Healy. And she rewrites the ending because guess what? They were right about Matt Healy. She wrote a whole song called the Smallest man who Ever Lived about Matt Healy.

[A]

I know.

[B]

So critics of Matt Healy were right.

[A]

But she doesn't want them to be right.

[B]

She doesn't want them to write. But she also knows she can't actually criticize her fans for not wanting to go out with a guy that she eventually called the smallest man who ever lived.

[A]

Yikes.

[B]

Which, by the way, if you're a man, that's kind of mean in many ways. Just saying. Not gonna go any further there. But it's not what you say to God.

[A]

Okay. Don't worry, dad. So size only matters when you're talking about the size of your bank account. Amen, brothers.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Hell, yeah.

[B]

So I'm saying that she says, I forget how the west was won. And she compares this to Romeo and Juliet story, which she rewrote to have a happy ending that she is. In fact, she hasn't switched to Travis Kelce with the happy ending. She switched to giving Matt Healy the happy ending and therefore lording it over all these critics. But the message to her fans is really, okay, I can write a song, and I can give something a happy ending and prove you're wrong. But guess what? You were right all along.

[A]

I don't know. You should have just led with that. That was kind of convincing, though. But it was an interesting theory, except for one small problem. I think I'm right, and I think you're wrong.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

I'm just kidding. But I think. I think the real answer is that it probably can be both.

[B]

I'm not gonna dispute that.

[A]

I think, because. Because she. She has proven that in songs, she can be both vague and she can be very specific. Right? You know how to ball. I know. Aristotle. Like, I don't know if Matt Healy know. Knows how to ball. I can't lie. But, you know, clearly Travis Kelsey does. She can be as specific as she wants. Right. But she can also be very vague. And I think the fact that she's being vague here is. Is something that she's doing on purpose because she's a skilled writer. So I think. Honestly, I don't know. I hate to say it, but white man's right. I kind of like your theory, but I also do think that there is something to the Travis Kelce, because I think. I think she's trying to make it sound like a happy ending, because at the end of the day, Travis Kelce, as of right now, seems like maybe it is her happy ending. You know, she's really settling down with him. She's, you know, sorry that the Chiefs lost the Super Bowl. But, like, you know, it seems like, it's a lot happier for her right now.

[B]

And look, as I've said before in this podcast, she puts a lot of different meanings in her songs.

[A]

Truth.

[B]

And.

[A]

And that's the power of Taylor Swift.

[B]

We're not here. Look, I would never want to say. There's only one interpretation. I do want to say. If you come up with an interpretation, you do have to explain all the things that are. She puts in the song.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And if you can't explain the opening line of the song, you probably don't have the full meaning of the song.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Anyway, I. Yeah. Let's just return to. This is a beautiful use of the word but. So many times.

[A]

So many times. So many beautiful, juicy, volumptuous, sumptuous and.

[B]

And using thick books, using the word unbuttoned.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

To give an extra rhyme. Or it's actually alliteration and cons. It's actually consonants and assets.

[A]

Nerd alert.

[B]

Which we'll get to later. But those are repeating the interior consonant.

[A]

Wait, wait, wait. Sorry. Assonance. Ass. But it's all connected.

[B]

It is assonance. And. But we gotta leave it there. That's a mic drop. Because then we'd have to pay a lot of money.

[A]

But thank you for listening. And my one homework for people who, you know, are literary, who trying to convince people use buts this week.

[B]

Yes. Go take something that you were writing and circle the ands and figure out which ones you can turn into buts.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And that is the rule of replacing. And that rule will make you a much better writer and speaker and your content will go more viral.

[A]

Many people have told me that I.

[B]

Have taught this to who have used it. A governor I taught it to used it still uses it. And in subsequent episodes when you talked.

[A]

What you taught adjunct at Columbia, they. You also did. That was the Carly Rae jeption. Right.

[B]

That's when you know that that was during upenny.

[A]

Ah. Sorry. I just want to slip in the year. You know, an Ivy League teacher just like not to brag or anything. And you should listen to him. He's pretty.

[B]

What we're going to do in subsequent episodes is pick a technique, a tool that Taylor uses to make her storytelling better and show why you should be using more of it if you want to be more persuasive, if you want to be more memorable and if you want your content to go viral because.

[A]

Storytelling is at the heart of all.

[B]

Of humanity and all the great communications.

[A]

Yeah. Thank you.

[B]

Thank you.