The genius lyrics of Swift’s The Archer use storytelling secrets you can master. But is the ending happy or sad?

Summary

Decoding Taylor Swift

Episode Title: The genius lyrics of Swift’s The Archer use storytelling secrets you can master. But is the ending happy or sad?
Hosts: Joe Romm and Toni Romm
Date: March 4, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Joe and Toni Romm dive deeply into Taylor Swift’s “The Archer” from her Lover album, dissecting the song’s lyrics, emotional core, and sophisticated storytelling techniques. The hosts explore the metaphoric and autobiographical layers of the song, explain how Swift’s lyricism can make anyone a better communicator, and debate whether the song’s ending is triumphantly hopeful or unresolved.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Why “The Archer” Stands Out

• [00:26] Toni dubs “The Archer” her favorite from Lover, calling it “top 10…very masterfully put together with an arc that you can’t see.”
• [01:21] Joe highlights Swift’s use of the extended metaphor—comparing the motif to Mirrorball and The Great War—and introduces the podcast’s actionable advice: how listeners can adopt these storytelling secrets.

2. Motifs, Metaphors, and Allusions

• [02:27] The song references Cupid, love as combat, and Swift’s astrological sign—Sagittarius, the Archer.

  “It is both an allusion to Cupid…and…you have the power to make yourself successful in a relationship. But also, you’re like the hunter, like hunting its prey.”
  — Toni, [02:27]

• [03:21] The hosts list mythological and pop-culture female archers: Artemis, Athena, Katniss Everdeen, Kate Bishop, and the Amazons.

  “It is a warrior female archetype—a very common and important backdrop for the song.”
  — Joe, [03:41]

3. Narrative Structure & Circularity

• [04:06] The song begins and ends with the same lyric, yielding a circular narrative structure reminiscent of the hero’s journey.

  “The song ‘Archer’ is her having an internal battle with herself…She comes out with the same conclusion but it’s much more sure and certain.”
  — Toni, [04:37]

4. Dissecting the Lyrics, Section by Section

First Verse

• [07:34] Live singing interlude by Toni: “Combat. I’m ready for combat…”
• Discussion of “combat” as a metaphor for emotional defense and relationship struggles.

  “At least what I’ve always understood it to be is…struggling with your partner—not fighting for love but fighting against it…You put all these walls up...”
  — Toni, [08:22]

Pre-Chorus & Chorus

• [11:38] Toni sings “Easy they come, easy they go…”
• Discussion on antithesis (“I never grew up, it’s getting so old”), self-sabotage, avoidance patterns, and vulnerability.

  “When you grow up, you realize, oh, guess what? Relationships are like work.”
  — Joe, [12:53]

• Swift’s concise, emotionally potent chorus held as masterful:

  “My favorite thing, mark of a good writer, is brevity, and saying everything you can possibly say with such emotional depth in such a short time.”
  — Toni, [16:57]

Second Verse

• [20:17] Toni sings “Dark side, I search for your dark side…”
• Discussion: Projecting flaws onto partners, self-sabotage (“cut off my nose to spite my face”), and residual pain from past breakups.

  “I’m looking for the flaw in you that gives me the excuse to leave.”
  — Joe, [21:04]

Second Pre-Chorus & Chorus

• Ghostly metaphors (“I wake in the night, I pace like a ghost…”), invisibility, and internalized shame are analyzed.

  “She’s on fire, but no one can see it because the smoke is invisible.”
  — Joe, [25:05]

• Reference to Taylor’s ongoing theme of not being seen/being too much: Mirrorball/Archer TikTok debates.

Bridge

• [30:38] Toni sings the repetitive and anxious “They see right through me…”
• Interpretation: Rumination, anxiety, vulnerability.

  “She is…ruminating. Everybody does it when they’re down. There’s a voice in our head.”
  — Joe, [32:07]

• Discussion of the Humpty Dumpty reference: “All the king’s horses and all the king’s men…”

  “That’s the classic crash and burn. Once you have fallen and you were fragile—right, that’s the point of Humpty Dumpty, he was an egg…”
  — Joe, [33:39]

5. The Ending: Hopeful or Not?

• [34:08] – [36:32] Toni sings the final chorus/bridge: “Who could ever leave me, darling? But who could stay?...You could stay…”
• Debate:

  “She’s ready to fight to make the love happen. She’s not ready to fight her love; she’s ready to fight for her love.”
  — Toni, [36:18] “You could stay…It’s as hypothetical as it could be. I think she has left this open-ended.”
  — Joe, [40:21]

Finale: Circular Return

• The song ends where it began (“Combat, I’m ready for combat”), encapsulating the struggle between self-doubt, growth, and hope.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Swift’s Lyric Craftsmanship:

  “She likes to employ antithesis—using the extreme opposite to make, underscore the point…Everyone should do [this]. You want to make a memorable point? Compare one extreme to the other.” — Joe, [14:53]

• Personal Emotional Resonance:

  “There’s something so true about this song that I can’t describe.” — Toni, [17:28]

• On Persona and Intimacy:

  “In the attempt to make yourself seen, you kind of risk losing some of the more vulnerable parts of yourself.” — Toni, [19:20]

• On Misheard Lyrics:

  “Look, all of us have misheard lyrics over the years. But mine was poetic.” — Toni, [39:31]

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Important Timestamps

• [00:26] "The Archer" as a storytelling masterclass
• [02:27] Song title's symbolism: Cupid, hunter, mythic archers
• [04:06] The importance of the song's circular structure
• [07:34] Live singing: First verse
• [11:38] Live singing: Pre-chorus/chorus; antithesis and vulnerability
• [16:57] Toni’s deep praise for lyrical brevity
• [20:17] Live singing, second verse; discussion of self-sabotage
• [25:22] Invisibility, being seen through, and “Chungus” (pop-culture lexicon)
• [30:38] Bridge, repetition, and Humpty Dumpty reference
• [34:08] Final chorus & outro (“You could stay”)
• [36:13] Metaphorical “arrow release” as song ends
• [40:21] Open-endedness of the ending & debate

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Analysis Tools & Storytelling Secrets Shared

• Extended metaphor as a device for narrative depth
• Circular structure to reinforce internal conflict and reflection (Hero’s Journey)
• Antithesis to create memorable lyricism (e.g., “I never grew up—it’s getting so old”)
• Allusions to myth, fiction, nursery rhymes (Artemis, Katniss, Humpty Dumpty)
• Self-aware vulnerability as a persuasion device

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Episode Takeaways

• Joe and Toni present “The Archer” as more than a breakup or love song; it’s a lesson in narrative craft—demonstrating how personal struggle and universal metaphors can powerfully connect with audiences.
• Swift’s composition is dissected not only in poetic terms but also as a template for achieving viral, memorable communication.
• The ending remains intentionally ambiguous, mirroring life’s uncertainty—the debate itself serves as a lesson in embracing complexity.

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For aspiring songwriters, communicators, and Swifties alike, this episode offers both lyrical insight and life advice, all wrapped in an engaging, often humorous, father-daughter dynamic.

(Sponsored ad breaks and outros omitted in this summary.)

Transcript

[Toni Rome]

Hi, I'm Joe Rome and I'm his daughter Toni.

[Joe Rome]

Welcome to Decoding Taylor Swift, where you'll learn the storytelling tools Swift uses that make her a modern day Shakespeare, but

[Toni Rome]

can make you a better communicator so you can drive your mission and build your tribe.

[Joe Rome]

This podcast will not only transform how you think about Swift's songs, but also give you the life changing tools to lead, connect, and change the world.

[Toni Rome]

Today on the podcast, we're talking about my favorite song off of the Lover album and the final song from her lover era set, the Archer. It's one of the songs that I refer people to when they say that they don't like Taylor Swift.

[Joe Rome]

Why do you refer them to this song?

[Toni Rome]

Oh, I genuinely believe this is probably on her list of like top 15 best songs of all time.

[Joe Rome]

15, sure. Yeah, I understand.

[Toni Rome]

To be honest, it's in my personal ranking, this is top 10. But it's just, it is very masterfully put together with an arc that you can't see that very well until the end perhaps. And it's arranged very nicely, it builds and builds. And it also contains multiple allusions to its subject, which is an archer. But it's also a very honest song that has allusions very masterfully woven in, kind of storybook esque. But that's the point.

[Joe Rome]

Yes. And I think that this is a very good song. You know, we try to provide actionable advice for people so that not only do they learn new things about Taylor and what her songs mean, but also some of the storytelling secrets she has mastered that you, the listener, can master too. And as you say, this is a very, very shrewd narrative arc. It also is an extension, extended metaphor on the archer. And extended metaphors, where you take one metaphor and constantly come back to it and build on it, is a very, very important tool which she uses a lot in songs like Mirror Ball and the Great War. And it also has a lot of illusions. This episode is very special because for the first time, Antonia is going to sing.

[Toni Rome]

Uh huh.

[Joe Rome]

Okay, let me ask you a, uh, why is it called the Archer?

[Toni Rome]

Well, you know, it is both an allusion to Cupid and the fact that that's how love happens is you get shot with an arrow. But it's also kind of saying that you have the power to make yourself successful in a relationship.

[Joe Rome]

But, and let's not forget, and also

[Toni Rome]

you're like the hunter, like hunting its

[Joe Rome]

prey and love is a battlefield. I mean, it's a very common metaphor in songs.

[Toni Rome]

Right? It's combat she says, combat. I'm ready for combat. That's the very first lyric.

[Joe Rome]

Exactly. She will use the war metaphor in the Great War, so. Absolutely. And let's not forget that she's a Sagittarius.

[Toni Rome]

Right, that too.

[Joe Rome]

Which is commonly known as the archer. And mythically and in fiction, there are many famous women archers, right?

[Toni Rome]

Yes. Artemis.

[Joe Rome]

Artemis. Artemis being the goddess of the hunt.

[Toni Rome]

And then there's Athena, who's also an archer.

[Joe Rome]

Athena also is also famously Katniss Everdeen.

[Toni Rome]

Yes. And then there is Kate Bishop, who's in Marvel.

[Joe Rome]

And of course, the Amazons.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah, right, right.

[Joe Rome]

Were. Were famous for their archery. So it is. It is a warrior female archetype that is very common and important backdrop for the song. And combat. I'm ready for combat. So very important. This is one of those songs that has the same first line as last line.

[Toni Rome]

As the last line.

[Joe Rome]

Right. She doesn't do this a lot, but she does do it. Sometimes she tweaks it, as she does in red, where the tweak is important. And sometimes she leaves it the same. But it's definitely a circular song. As you were saying, it has a narrative arc. It's not an accident. When she has the same first and last line. That's. I mean, the hero's journey is a circular arc story.

[Toni Rome]

Right, Right.

[Joe Rome]

There's no getting around that.

[Toni Rome]

The song Archer is her having an internal battle with herself.

[Guest Singer]

Right.

[Toni Rome]

Where she comes out with the same conclusion that she had going in, but it's much more sure and certain. But it's a different type of combat that she's ready to enter into.

[Joe Rome]

Yes. So we're.

[Toni Rome]

I can read the lines.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah. But before we dive in, all right, we are going to.

[Toni Rome]

Oh, we're sponsored? Is that what you're about to say?

[Joe Rome]

We are sponsored.

[Toni Rome]

Isn't that amazing? You guys? You guys, Liquid IV sponsored us. Like, they're very great. I love them. Big fan. I've been using them since, like, 2020. Ever since I got diagnosed with, like, pots and stuff. They're great. And we get a discount. Oh, my God. Because we're so.

[Joe Rome]

You'll be hearing. If you listen through the whole thing,

[Toni Rome]

we get paid more. And currently we don't get paid.

[Joe Rome]

So, yeah, we don't get paid. So here is the ad.

[Toni Rome]

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[Joe Rome]

Alright, so let's dive into the song. Let's dive in and let's start with the first verse.

[Toni Rome]

Um, I mean like in honor of it being like one of my favorite songs of all time. Like I can do a little singing. I can do a little singing.

[Joe Rome]

Oh wow. Wow.

[Toni Rome]

I know it's a big day and I'm feeling very shy. Okay you guys, time to hear my real singing voice.

[Joe Rome]

I'm just very excited that you are going to sing on this episode.

[Toni Rome]

I figured why not?

[Joe Rome]

For the first time, Antoni is going to sing. Let's do it.

[Guest Singer]

Combat. I'm ready for combat. I say I don't want that but what if I do? Cause cruelty wins in the movies. I've got a hundred thrown out speeches. I almost said to you, can I redo that?

[Toni Rome]

Can I retake that?

[Joe Rome]

That was beautiful. Oh, that was very beautiful, sweetie pie.

[Toni Rome]

I don't know about. Well, you legally have to say that first cuz it's International Women's Month. And second Because I'm your daughter.

[Joe Rome]

So she repeats the word combat in. In a matter of five words. Right. And she'll repeat at the end. So combat is clearly important here.

[Toni Rome]

And here she means. At least what I've always understood it to be is the type of combat where it's like, it's. It's, you know, getting into tiffs, you know, struggling with your partner and understanding. Like, not fighting for love, but fighting against it. Like, you put all these walls up and you're ready for combat. Because she says, I say, I don't want that, but what if I do? You know, with all that Kanye drama and, you know, people were like, oh, she just loves the drama. And it's like, well, she's being honest. Like. Yeah. I mean, she doesn't think. She does. Probably does.

[Joe Rome]

Let's also remember that in a song she. That comes before this on the album, she says that. What is she. She swears to be overdramatic and true to my lover. Right. So it's not a big shock that she. She views relationships as combat. And. And look, when you've written many famous songs critical of the man that you've been with because he treated you poorly, then that is a kind of a battle of war.

[Toni Rome]

It is kind of a battle.

[Joe Rome]

You shoot the final shot.

[Toni Rome]

And she says, like, I have a hundred thrown out speeches. I almost said to you. That's something that you do when you are kind of in a state of anguish and you're like, you know, logically, you know, you probably shouldn't say any of them, but you make them up anyway, and that's all your mind can focus on because you're so. You have all of these defenses up. And that's what she's talking about here.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah. And in the. Let's see, in the. In the prologue to Speak now, she says that she thinks it's important for you to get this out of you. Get this story out of you even, and tell the truth, even if you don't share it with anyone else. Right. And, you know, the metaphor of her throwing out speeches is also a metaphor she has used in all too well. Right. I'm a crumpled up piece of paper lying there. Right. So this is, you know, as a writer, which is what she is. The idea of writing drafts and then throwing them out.

[Toni Rome]

Don't I know it.

[Joe Rome]

Yes.

[Toni Rome]

Doing that right now for my class. I hate all of my drafts.

[Joe Rome]

The point is, cruelty wins in the movies. This isn't a movie, but that's true.

[Toni Rome]

There are a lot of analogues There's a reason it's compelling in the movies.

[Joe Rome]

And this is a song and narrative. And whether cruelty's gonna win is what she's putting on the table here. Is cruelty. Is my cruelty.

[Toni Rome]

Is she ready for combat? I mean, she's ready for combat, but

[Joe Rome]

like, is she gonna do it and is her cruel? It's not just the man's cruelty. She has definitely gone out with men who are casually cruel in the name of being honest. Right. But she's also saying, I've been the archer, I've been the prey. Right. So we'll get there. But the point is I can be cruel and I have been cruel and men have been cruel to me. And that in some sense is the war, the combat.

[Toni Rome]

Right, Right.

[Joe Rome]

Is this so we can go on? Let's go into the pre chorus.

[Toni Rome]

Let me get that note again. Okay, okay.

[Guest Singer]

Easy, easy they come Easy they go I jump from the train, I ride off alone I never grew up it's getting so old Help me hold on to you Cuz I've in the archer I've been the prey who could ever leave me darling but who could say.

[Toni Rome]

There you go.

[Joe Rome]

That was great. That was great. So pre chorus and chorus, I think they go together.

[Toni Rome]

They do.

[Joe Rome]

Easy they come, Easy they go.

[Toni Rome]

Right. You know, like love. Like she's thinking, well, okay, like. Like I lose this guy, and then what? You know, that's just what life. That's all what happens. God, I'm such a fucking Chungus failure. That's probably what she's thinking.

[Joe Rome]

Well, and. And also, she is beating herself over the head because she is saying that maybe she didn't try hard enough probably. Right? She just like, oh, man, this is a great relationship. Now it's over. Right?

[Toni Rome]

Right.

[Joe Rome]

And this is. This gets to the. I never grew up. Right.

[Toni Rome]

The point is getting sold.

[Joe Rome]

When you grow up, you realize, oh, guess what? Relationships are like work. And you just can't like, oh, I'm enjoying myself, you know? And now we have. I jump from the train, I ride off alone.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah, she's a little bit of a. She's a little bit of a cowboy. On a steel horse. She rides, you know, she's wanted dead or alive. You could say, well, this is.

[Joe Rome]

This is her. Her. She jumps ship doing her own stunts. And this is a lot of metaphors. There's movie metaphors. Yes. And. And also riding off alone. This is a callback, an illusion to get away car.

[Toni Rome]

Yes, it is.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah.

[Toni Rome]

Yes, it is.

[Joe Rome]

Where she famously. And that's even better. Than jumping off the train. I'm just taking the freaking car. I'm taking your keys, taking the car, and I'm riding off there. I don't need no train or whatever.

[Toni Rome]

It does mean a different thing when you take their car. It's kind of like you take their power and you ride off with it. But jumping the train is like. It's just. You kind of slowly peel away.

[Joe Rome]

It's like abandoning ship. And also, it's assuming the train's moving. It's risky.

[Toni Rome]

It's, like, not right. And saying that I never grew up is just saying, like, she's not, you know, saying that she's, like, completely immature, but she's saying that a lot of the patterns from her childhood, a lot of the scariness of being with people when you're young, you know, like, rejection, all of that, it stayed with her. And she's always a little bit afraid and a little bit more like, I don't know, maybe I should jump ship before it gets worse. Because, you know, I've experienced it getting worse.

[Joe Rome]

Well, and this is the. You can't break up with me.

[Toni Rome]

Right. I'm gonna break up with you.

[Joe Rome]

Right.

[Toni Rome]

She does that a lot, right? I mean, she's like. It's getting old. You know, my patterns. So she's saying, help me hold on to you because she doesn't want to keep doing that. So she's talking to her lover.

[Joe Rome]

She's like, so, you know, this is antithesis. I never grew up. It's getting so old.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah. She likes to employ antithesis, which is

[Joe Rome]

using the extreme opposite to make. Underscore the point. And this is one of her favorite things to do. Dolling. I'm a nightmare dressed like a daydream. And this is something everyone should do. You want to make a point. You want to make a memorable point. You want to compare one extreme to the other extreme, you know, and help me hold on to you. So this is a call for help. This is in a vulnerable. Sort of.

[Toni Rome]

Just recognize the problem.

[Joe Rome]

She talks about not growing up a

[Toni Rome]

lot in songs of hers, especially in the one about Peter Pan, where she talks about him a lot.

[Joe Rome]

Yes, Peter. Yeah.

[Toni Rome]

There's also that song, I hate it

[Joe Rome]

here where she's stuck in the restaurant and.

[Toni Rome]

Oh, yeah, Right where you left me.

[Joe Rome]

Yes, Right where you left me. That is a song about remaining static in time while the rest of the world moves on. And of course, she says in the song that we discussed, growing up precocious sometimes means not growing up at all.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah. The tortured Post department has a lot of reasons to. I guess when you get older, you start thinking about your younger years more.

[Joe Rome]

Right. And that's the Peter meeting. Oh, and let's not forget Peter leaving, Wendy. Right. That's the other Peter Pan allusion in Cardigan, right. Where, as we discussed, Peter leaving.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah, right, right.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah.

[Toni Rome]

That's a good illusion. I can't believe I didn't think of that. Well, yeah. And then. I've been the archer I've been the prey she's saying, you know, I've. I have been hurt I have hurt others I've. I've. I've started Loves, I've ended Loves, I've run away I've. I've. I've tried to stay. It's just, you know, who could ever leave? But, you know, I mean, like. Like, look at me. I'm like, so dazzling. I'm Taylor Swift. But at the end of the day, who could stand, like, so much Taylor Swift, Right? Exactly.

[Joe Rome]

Like. And like. Yeah.

[Toni Rome]

I just love this chorus. It's just such. It's just. My favorite thing mark of a good writer is brevity and saying everything that you can possibly say with such emotional depth in such a short time. And George Orwell agrees with this. And in creative writing, we're talking about this and like, like the lines. I've been the archripe and the prey who could ever leave me, darling? But who could say like, fuck, fuck, it's so hard.

[Joe Rome]

Oh, it is. It is one of her briefest choruses, but it is, it is.

[Toni Rome]

It just does. It's so. It's just better than some of her other choruses. Like, I mean, you know, comparing Taylor Swift to Taylor Swift is like comparing, like, no, no. A delicious apple pie to another delicious apple pie. Like, but it's just so. There's something so true about this song that I can't describe.

[Joe Rome]

To be clear, one of the reasons this chorus is so awesome is antithesis. I've been the archer I've been the

[Toni Rome]

prey the prey who could leave me,

[Joe Rome]

leave me but who could stay? Right, so this is what she's like.

[Toni Rome]

Darling. As a little flourish. Wait. And then I have another thing to say, though, please, because there is. There is often, or at least in the 2021 type of TikTok y, there was a debate between which one was better or which one you identified more with, which was Mirrorball or the Archer. And something about the Archer always identified with me more because. I don't know, I think it's never been a struggle for me to be noticed, I guess. But it's always been a struggle for me to not do too much or. I don't know. I used to get told that I. I was too much. You know, I mean, better than to be too much than like not enough. I guess has been my fault Personality. But yeah. Well, my Spanish teacher in sixth grade certainly thought me and a few and others had quote unquote big personalities and we had a group.

[Joe Rome]

But you.

[Toni Rome]

Oh man, sixth grade Spanish was a wild time, you guys.

[Joe Rome]

Well, but yeah, you were. You played major roles in. In musicals on, you know, in your high school and elsewhere. And you're a performer. That's what it takes is a big personality, I think. But. But you said you're not mirrorball because you didn't not have trouble being seen. But part of this song is also about not being seen as we will get to.

[Toni Rome]

But it's. It's right in the attempt to make yourself seen, you kind of risk losing some of the more vulnerable parts parts of yourself, you know.

[Joe Rome]

Well. And there's always the question, this gets back to the life of a showgirl.

[Toni Rome]

Which part is real?

[Joe Rome]

Right. This is a show, right? The Errors tour is a show. She's a performer, right? I can do this with a broken heart, right? We don't know. All right, let's do.

[Toni Rome]

Although the one part that makes me feel a little bit differently to Taylor Swift and the performance bit is that I really can't do it with the A broken heart man. If I'm feeling sad and I try to open up my math homework, I'll just start crying and play Tetris instead.

[Joe Rome]

Like it'll just math homework if you become a performer.

[Toni Rome]

Now if I become a performer, I'll just start crying during the performance, but I guess it'll like happen.

[Joe Rome]

The show must go on.

[Toni Rome]

The show must go on.

[Joe Rome]

All right, so let's do the. The second verse, right?

[Toni Rome]

Give me a sec. Yeah, I'm getting the note. Okay.

[Guest Singer]

Dark side I search for your dark side. But what if I'm alright right, right, right here and I cut off my nose Just despite my face Then I hate my reflection for years and years.

[Toni Rome]

Anyway, there you go.

[Joe Rome]

That's great. That's great.

[Toni Rome]

Okay, okay.

[Joe Rome]

Dark side I search for your dark side.

[Toni Rome]

She's saying, damn shoddy. I got more problems than you do. And in fact the fact that you like me, that's a red flag. I'm crazy.

[Joe Rome]

Well, you know and is what she's saying, right. And this is. Gets to the jumping from the train. Right. I'm looking for the flaw in you that gives me the excuse to leave.

[Toni Rome]

Right. Fuck.

[Joe Rome]

And at the same time, what if

[Toni Rome]

the flaw is me looking for something that's an excuse to leave right now?

[Joe Rome]

Genius. We always read the genius. I'm On It Right now lyrics has this great point that in 2012's sad, beautiful, tragic, she says, you've got your demons and darling, they all look like me. Right. So the question. She's also raising the question, maybe I'm your dark side. That's why. Right? What? You like me, right? Because I'm the dark one here. And so. And what if I'm all right, Right? Right. Right here. And so she doesn't know if she's just looking for this imaginary dark side or whether it's real or not. And the next line.

[Toni Rome]

The next line. Yes. Cut off my nose just to spite my face.

[Joe Rome]

Right?

[Toni Rome]

Right. She. If she hated her own face, she would cut off her nose. And. And. And she is. She is spiteful and kind of petty. And. And she would hurt herself if it meant hurting somebody else, you know?

[Joe Rome]

Right. And.

[Toni Rome]

Or she would hurt somebody else even if it hurt herself too.

[Joe Rome]

Right.

[Toni Rome]

I mean, not as a bad person. The sense that it's just like running away would hurt her too, but she's

[Joe Rome]

so scared that it is self sabotage. It is the. It is the illusion. It's the, you know, truism. This is the. Yes, I will hurt myself if it will hurt you. Or a lover's quarrel. Sometimes they get carried away, you know?

[Toni Rome]

Right.

[Joe Rome]

They blow up because people. People want to win so much an argument, they forget that there. Shouldn't I, like, have a relationship with this person? Right. Then I hate my reflection for years and years.

[Toni Rome]

I know she hates what she sees in the mirror in a metaphorical and phys. Like, well, in here in physical sense. But she's using that to refer to this. She's like, what's wrong with me? I'm so crazy.

[Joe Rome]

And. And we see in the video later

[Toni Rome]

on for BoJack Horseman, you know, she's very self aware, but she can't really fix her problems very easily.

[Joe Rome]

And that becomes clear in Antihero, right? Where she's looking, standing on the scale and her other self is shaking her head and. Okay, yeah, next, another pre chorus. Yes.

[Toni Rome]

Okay, I have a note.

[Guest Singer]

Oh, wait.

[Toni Rome]

Whoa. That's not.

[Joe Rome]

No.

[Toni Rome]

Oh, can you tell? This is like right on. Like the point between where my chest voice and my head voice switch. Oh, this is like an uncomfortable way to be. I Didn't warm up. I just kind of made this choice.

[Guest Singer]

Hold on Awake in the night A pace like a ghost the room is on fire Invisible smoke and all of my heroes Die all alone Help me hold on to you I've been the archer I've been the prey

[Toni Rome]

Screaming who

[Guest Singer]

could ever leave me, darling but who could stay?

[Joe Rome]

That was very good. Now we're getting very deep. I wake in the night I pace like a ghost the room is on

[Toni Rome]

fire Invisible smoke I was listening to this song, right, while I was reading Jane Eyre, and I was like. Like, that's kind of like how Jane Eyre happens. They think that the attic of their house is haunted, but there's just a woman inside of it. Her. His ex wife that she. That he's hid and claimed is crazy. And then she sets fire to his house. And. Yeah, well.

[Joe Rome]

And, yeah, that's all supposed to represent

[Toni Rome]

how crazy men are.

[Joe Rome]

Well, and she's being a little bit crazy here herself. Waking in the night pacing like a ghost. The room is on fire. But no one can see she's on fire, right? She's on fire, but no one can see it because the smoke is invisible, right?

[Toni Rome]

Where the smoke is from, she's on period. Period, Right?

[Joe Rome]

And in this sense, this gets to her being invisible, right? Because that's what a ghost is. That's what I see right through me. You see right through me. Everyone sees right through me, right? Invisible. I'm a ghost, you know, metaphorically.

[Toni Rome]

And she's scared that all the worst parts of her are the parts of her that are actually true and not just defense mechanisms. That's why she's scared when people see right through her. Because she's like, fuck, there's some terrible shit in there. Gosh. Oh, my gosh. Like, I'm such a Chungus. That's what she's afraid of. Do you know what the word Chungus means, dad?

[Joe Rome]

Please tell me, daughter.

[Toni Rome]

It started with this meme called Big Chungus, which is like a weird, weird version of Bugs Bunny. And everybody was like, yeah, that's so big Chungus is coming. But then it resurfaced recently, and Chungus. It's now this thing like, ugh, I'm such a Chungus. Like, I'm such a fool. Or I'm like. I'm like, ugh. Like, fuck, my fat Chungus. Life is like a very common phrase that you'll hear youngins say. Because it's like, oh, my life is so Chungus. It's just bad. It's just like, not Good. It's like, terrible.

[Joe Rome]

All right, well, this is life. Now we're placing.

[Toni Rome]

He's like, gosh, I'm such a chungus. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Anyway, I think now that we've used it on a Taylor Swift podcast, though, the meme has officially died.

[Joe Rome]

Kind of like the way we killed six, six, seven.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah, the way you killed six, seven.

[Joe Rome]

I killed six, seven.

[Toni Rome]

That's true.

[Joe Rome]

If only I could kill. If I could kill memes, man, I would be so happy.

[Toni Rome]

Oh, my God.

[Joe Rome]

Doing it all day long.

[Toni Rome]

What a but.

[Joe Rome]

And all of my heroes die all alone. Wow.

[Toni Rome]

So only the good die young, they say.

[Joe Rome]

Well, and they're not really much in the way of heroes. I mean, it's hard to say.

[Toni Rome]

All the best writers commit suicide, so that's kind of its own little thing.

[Joe Rome]

Well, look, I'll be.

[Toni Rome]

Or they die like hermits.

[Joe Rome]

The questions. Well, look, if the heroes are some. There are a lot of famous singers who drink themselves to death. She'll write a song about a famous poet who drinks himself to death. Right, that's. That's. And so, you know, it's not clear exactly what this means, except, I mean,

[Toni Rome]

she's a famous singer songwriter. Like, the outlook for her is like, not great. So she's like, please, like, I want to be better than that.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah.

[Toni Rome]

And it's easy to develop hard coping mechanisms. I mean, bad ones.

[Joe Rome]

Right. And so the point is, do I want to end up with another in a relationship, a long term relationship, or am I gonna, you know, just be this person who dies all alone? So then again, the cry for help, help me hold on to you. And again, I've been the archer, I've been the prey. Except this time she's screaming, right? So that's important. She's. She's getting a little more desperate and from the earlier song, Cruel Summer. And I scream, for whatever it's worth, I love you. The worst thing you ever heard. So the screaming is in that song. It's desperate. I love you. I know you don't love me. And I know we're playing your game, but, you know, now she's screaming again, Who could ever leave me, darling? Who could stay? And in some sense, the chorus, which you love and I think, which is one of her great chords choruses, is the pithiest statement of the Persona that she is projecting throughout her career. It's not every song, but if you were to sum up Taylor Swift in a fewest possible words, who could ever leave me, darling? But who could Stay. That's what you would say. And obviously, she was too much for Joe Alwyn.

[Toni Rome]

He couldn't handle all that.

[Joe Rome]

He couldn't handle all that. And. And we did discuss, when we were talking about the. When we were talking. You're making faces again. When. When we were. This is your Melania Trump.

[Toni Rome]

My normal face.

[Joe Rome]

Oh, I thought that's your Melania Trump face. To show you.

[Toni Rome]

I always look like this.

[Joe Rome]

Yes, you always look like that. But in the life of a showgirl, right, she is representing her fiance as the man who would stay. He's the one who would stay. Right. And that's what.

[Toni Rome]

Well, in this song. Well, we'll see. Yeah, we'll see. Because. Do you want me to go on?

[Joe Rome]

Yes, please.

[Toni Rome]

Okay. Let me just get the note.

[Joe Rome]

And this is one of the strangest bridges. This is. This is a. As bridges go, this is unusual.

[Toni Rome]

That's fine. Okay. I have it.

[Guest Singer]

Cause they see right through me they see right through me they see right through. Can you see right through me? They see right through me through me they see right through me I see right through me I see right through me. All the king's horses and all the king's men? Couldn't put me together again. Cause all of my memories started out friends.

[Toni Rome]

Wait, I made a mistake.

[Joe Rome]

You did. Just go back to that.

[Toni Rome]

That's how I used to hear it.

[Guest Singer]

All the king's horses and all the king's men? Couldn't put me together again. Cause all of my enemies started out friends. Help me hold on to you.

[Toni Rome]

Is that okay?

[Joe Rome]

Yeah, I think that's great. As I was saying, it's a strange bridge. I mean, she. She occasionally does this thing where she repeats the same thing just over and over again a whole bunch of times. Why? It's delicate, right?

[Guest Singer]

I don't know.

[Toni Rome]

I like it because it's like. It's like her mind is racing. She's like. They see right through me. They see right through me. They see right through me. They know what's gonna happen. Like, fuck. I'm such a fucking Chungus. Like, that's what she's thinking right now.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah, she. She is. This is. What's the word?

[Toni Rome]

Like, after her breakups, she's finally. Oh, what's the word you were looking for? Sorry?

[Joe Rome]

There's a word for where you just get stuck on a thing. This is the ruminant.

[Toni Rome]

Oh, yeah. She's ruminating. She's ruminating me when I ruin. Ruminate. Yeah, exactly.

[Joe Rome]

And we all do. Some of us more than others. And Particularly when we're down.

[Toni Rome]

That was targeted.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah. It's a OCD thing, but everybody does it when they.

[Toni Rome]

It's mostly anxiety, but rumination can also definitely be ocd.

[Joe Rome]

We're beating ourselves up. There's a voice in our head. It happens when we trigger something very deep and comes from our childhood. This. So the bridge isn't much of a bridge.

[Toni Rome]

Well, but all the kings were. She's finally getting to the root of it. That's how I always see it. Like, the root of her pain is just from all these fucking breakups that she. That just hurt her so much. And, like, all these people rejecting her. And. And. And. And she's barely been put together. I mean, like, all of her enemies, they. They were friends at one point, and then every. Like, how can you say that relationship is gonna end well when all the relationships that started. Like, to have a relationship that goes poorly, it has to at first have at least started out a little bit. Well, you know.

[Joe Rome]

And look, we're talking Humpty Dumpty here. Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall. Humpty Dumpty. Humpty Dumpty had a great.

[Toni Rome]

Humpy Dumpy.

[Joe Rome]

Humpty Dumpty had a great fall. Right? This is in the heroes interpolating it.

[Toni Rome]

That's what it's called.

[Joe Rome]

Right? This is the, you know, this is the classic crash and burn.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

Right. This is the great fall. And once you have fallen and you were fragile. Right. That's the point of Humpty Dumpty. He was an egg.

[Toni Rome]

Or pick yourself back up again.

[Joe Rome]

Right? But in this case, you can't. Not even all the king's horses and all the king's men could put her together again again.

[Toni Rome]

Otherwise, all of her enemies, they started out her friends. She needs help. She needs her partner to be like, help. Like. Like, help me. Like, Like, I promise, like, I'm not like that. Or Chungus. I just need help. Yeah. Do you want me to go on?

[Joe Rome]

So. Yeah, please go on.

[Toni Rome]

Okay. We find the note

[Guest Singer]

up in the archer. Up in the prey. Who could ever leave me? Darling? But who could stay? See right through me. I see. Right. Who could stay? Who could stay? Who could stay? You could stay. You could stay.

[Toni Rome]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Shifting a little money here, a little there, and hoping it all works out? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can be a better budgeter and potentially lower your insurance bill, too. You tell Progressive what you want to pay for car Insurance and they'll help you find options within your budget. Try it [e-mail] progressive casualties insurance company and affiliates price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states. And then I'm sure I missed one because then it's. After a few beats it goes, combat,

[Guest Singer]

I'm ready for combat.

[Joe Rome]

And the song ends abruptly. Yeah, the song ends abruptly, which is.

[Toni Rome]

Do you want me to re record any of that?

[Joe Rome]

Nope. That's great. Love it.

[Toni Rome]

And combat. Ready for combat. That's how Kermit the Frog would do it. Sorry, there's something wrong with me. I've been taking my Adderall today.

[Joe Rome]

So let me. Let me read something that so swift. Like a post on Tumblr in which a fan stated the archer doesn't follow the standard songwriting structure building up until the pre chorus and dropping in chorus. Instead it keeps building up throughout the song like an archer pulling the bowstring and finally shooting the arrow in the end. Right?

[Toni Rome]

That's why it abruptly stops.

[Joe Rome]

That's why it abruptly stops. So.

[Toni Rome]

And the combat that she's ready for. And by the way, it goes to who could stay? And it's like you could stay. And then combat, I'm ready for combat. Just she's ready to fight to make the love happen. She's not ready to fight her love. She's ready to fight for her love.

[Joe Rome]

Well, that's one interpretation.

[Toni Rome]

Well, it's my interpretation. So you're wrong. If it's not your interpretation, you're wrong. I'm just kidding. You guys are not wrong.

[Joe Rome]

It's not clear.

[Toni Rome]

Right. My old interpretation used to just be like, she's just like, well, I guess I have all these walls built up. What does it mean?

[Joe Rome]

All I want to say here and we've talked about this.

[Toni Rome]

Yes. What more do you need to say, man?

[Joe Rome]

When we talked about Lover, which we just did, right. Lover was the song before this that we talked about. The opening line is we could leave the Christmas lights up until January and then she'll say again, we could let our friends crash in the living room. And the point of that song is it was hypothetical, right? Hadn't done it yet. And apparently they make the rules. Right? But she doesn't make the rules. So this is hypothetical, right? You could stay, you could stay, you could stay. And so I think it's open ended. I don't disagree that there clearly are people, when you read other people talking about this song who think exactly what you said. I'm ready to fight for this. But although it's also possible to just read this as she's back where she began.

[Guest Singer]

That's what I was.

[Toni Rome]

I mean, like, for a long time, that was my interpretation, to be honest. Like, just reading genius of the past few days. I feel like my interpretation has changed. I feel like that's like. But. But I think for a long time, there is a reason that for a long time, I thought that it was just. She goes back to where she started.

[Guest Singer]

She's like, combat. I'm ready for combat.

[Toni Rome]

And she's like, talking about, you know, the walls that she's built up, but she does it with a tenderness. I always thought. She's just like, where am I? Like, what do I do? She's kind of. Yeah. It's ready to deal with it.

[Joe Rome]

And the only reason that I don't lean that way is all the king's horses, all the king's men couldn't put me together again. Right? This is. I will wait for you to come back. It's not memories. You keep saying that.

[Toni Rome]

It should be.

[Joe Rome]

All of your memories started out friends, right?

[Toni Rome]

I mean, they wouldn't be memories if you were still with them. That's what I used to think it was. I used to think it's all my

[Guest Singer]

memories started out friends because I thought

[Toni Rome]

that, like, you know, she was talking about, like, I don't know. I mean, it's the same essential thing, right? Everything.

[Guest Singer]

Yes, it is.

[Toni Rome]

Anyway, it's the same thing.

[Joe Rome]

Look, all of us have misheard lyrics over the years, and I.

[Toni Rome]

Okay, but mine was poetic.

[Joe Rome]

It was, yes, because it was not. It didn't make any sense. Literally.

[Toni Rome]

What the freak is wrong with you?

[Joe Rome]

She saves her harshest verse for right here. All the kings couldn't put me back together again, right? Humpty Dumpty had a great, great fall. So, yes, you can. You can decide that this is a hero's journey with a happy ending or

[Toni Rome]

a uncertain ending, Right?

[Joe Rome]

Or you could decide she's just using the same words she's always used. She's hoping someone else is gonna save her. Right? Right. So this is, you know, again, this gets to this issue, right, of saving yourself, right? That's what Opalite, which became number one or 14th.

[Toni Rome]

I really like it. I love the music video. Music video.

[Joe Rome]

But. So, yeah, I mean, the point of Opalite is you make your own luck and you have to be proactive. And so, yes, he could stay, Right? But you didn't say you did stay. It's as hypothetical as it could be. I think she has Left this open ended. And I think if you want to, you know, if you want to come away and say she's just back where she started, that's, I think, legitimate. The only other thing that argues against your interpretation, of course, is that in real life, she didn't.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

She's still.

[Toni Rome]

What. But there's still a chance, right?

[Guest Singer]

Yeah.

[Toni Rome]

But Travis Kelsey stayed.

[Joe Rome]

Right.

[Toni Rome]

You know.

[Joe Rome]

Right. But this song was right. She imagines.

[Toni Rome]

But it's asking in a general sense too. You know, she's asking this dude. But it's. But it's always. It's always. This is a battle with herself. This song is more than anything a battle with herself. And it seems like she's won the battle at least with Travis Kelce. Yeah. Not to be one of those people obsessed with Taylor and Travis. They are quite cute.

[Joe Rome]

But, you know, only time will tell.

[Toni Rome]

Only time will tell.

[Joe Rome]

It's only been, what, two years?

[Toni Rome]

Yeah, it's true. She was Joel. I mean, but they're getting married, you know. Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

Marriage is a big deal. And. And. And he's all in on fame. That's. Sure. He's not. Not a shrinking violet like. Like Joe Alwyn. Okay, well, this is great. Thank you so much for singing. I think that was terrific.

[Guest Singer]

Of course.

[Toni Rome]

All right. Anyway.

[Joe Rome]

And so we have finished the part of the ERAS tour.

[Toni Rome]

The very first part.

[Joe Rome]

And she's now gonna go back to Fearless. Although this is nothing. The heirs to a set list is not chronological or anything like that. It's just sort of.

[Toni Rome]

She does start from Lover and then go back to Fearless and.

[Joe Rome]

But then she jumps to Evermore. But yeah, Fearless. And I think.

[Toni Rome]

What are the tracks of Fearless?

[Joe Rome]

Fearless, you Belong With Me and Love Story and very different songs than the complicated songs of Lover. I think Fearless is a great song.

[Toni Rome]

Me too. She wrote them when she was very young. She wrote them when she was like my age. Right. Like 19, 20.

[Joe Rome]

It's a great pop song. And we will see you, you will

[Toni Rome]

see next week in the next video.

[Joe Rome]

Please do.

[Toni Rome]

Please, like, subscribe. Ring the bell and comment. Send us money and support your local businesses. Donate to Doctors Without Borders.

[Joe Rome]

Well, and Liquid I. Liquid iv. Use the code. Decoding.

[Toni Rome]

Decoding. Fight against capitalism. I don't know. Be a good person. Have a great day.

[Joe Rome]

I think they don't need that kind of advice from us. But see you next week.

[Toni Rome]

Bye bye.

[Joe Rome]

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[Toni Rome]

Close your eyes. Exhale. Feel your body relax.

[Guest Singer]

And let go of whatever you're carrying today.

[Toni Rome]

Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe. Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts.