The meaning of Swift’s Life of a Showgirl, how it connects to Britney Spears & Marjorie plus Toni’s hilarious musical impressions

Summary

Decoding Taylor Swift: “The Meaning of Swift’s Life of a Showgirl”—Allegory, Metanarrative, and Legacy

Podcast: Decoding Taylor Swift

Hosts: Joe Romm and Toni Romm
Original Air Date: January 6, 2026
Episode Theme: A deep dive into Taylor Swift’s “The Life of a Showgirl”—exploring its lyrics, connections to Britney Spears, Marjorie Finlay, and further insights into fame, storytelling, and the price of stardom. Featuring Toni’s musical impressions and trademark banter.

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Overview

In this episode, Joe and Toni Romm embark on a detailed analysis of Taylor Swift’s “The Life of a Showgirl,” the final, title track of her landmark album. They dissect lyrical references, narrative techniques, and the song’s metacommentary on fame, artistry, and generational legacy. Drawing vibrant connections between Taylor’s life, her influences (notably Britney Spears and her grandmother Marjorie Finlay), and broader themes in show business, the hosts bring humor, sharp insight, and even a few musical impressions to illuminate how Swift’s songwriting tools can empower storytelling far beyond music.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Song as a Meta-Narrative and Album Closer

• The track is described by Joe as “Taylor’s most meta song and the key to unlocking the meaning of the whole album.” (00:17)
• The duo highlights its self-referential nature, noting Swift “breaks the fourth wall at the end.”
  • “This is the full circularity of the album. And we will see, this song is incredibly circular to Taylor’s own life.” – Joe (01:24)
• The song’s narrative structure is heavily recursive, referencing both the album’s opening (“Fate of Ophelia”) and Swift’s own journey.

2. Character Analysis: 'Kitty' as an Avatar

• The protagonist ‘Kitty Finley’ is constructed from both Taylor’s mom’s Great Dane (‘Kitty’) and the last name of her grandmother, Marjorie—a celebrated showgirl herself.
  • “Kitty is kind of an infantilizing name. It’s kind of cutesy…You don’t expect it to be, I don’t know, the darker underside of being a showgirl.” – Toni (03:29)
• Swift’s explanation of the name may be a partial truth, per Joe, tying into the motif of the unreliable narrator.

3. Parallels to Britney Spears & Media Scrutiny

• Explicit and implicit links between ‘Kitty’ and Britney Spears are discussed:
  • The Vegas “keys to the city” motif for both (04:29), the media machinery that builds and tears down female celebrities, infantilization, and empowerment.
  • “There are a lot of parallels in the song between Britney Spears and Kitty.” – Toni (03:44)
• Toni delivers a humorous and spot-on Britney Spears impression:
  • “Like, oops, I did it again. That was really good.” – Toni (23:05)
  • “Toxic, I’m slipping under, taste of a poison paradise, I’m addicted to you…” – Toni (23:19)
    (Britney impression segment: 22:41–23:33)

4. The Price of Fame: Legacy, Sacrifice, and Double Standards

• The song, and the episode, meditate on fame’s costs:
  • Loss of privacy, relationships, and increased scrutiny (“the more you play, the more that you pay”) (30:00–31:30)
  • The “Nepo baby” and “didn’t do it legitly” critique, connecting to modern and historical skepticism around female success (05:52–07:16).
  • “There’s a cost to celebrity...your friends become in danger… you’ve elevated them, too. Maybe they didn’t ask for it.” – Joe (09:20)

5. Show Business as Generational Legacy

• Drawing connections to Swift’s song “Marjorie,” the hosts discuss how “Life of a Showgirl” is also about generational memory—immortalizing those who came before.
  • “Her grandmother was a showgirl, a great singer... through her own immortality, [Taylor] is able to help make others become immortal— including the original Kitty.” – Joe (58:32)

6. Language, Metaphors, and Songwriting Tactics

• The song is packed with layered wordplay—Kitty/kitten/kismet/cat/karma (32:06–32:59). References to Shakespeare (Ophelia) and to icons like Elizabeth Taylor and Marilyn Monroe tie showbiz across eras.
  • “Karma is a cat, purring in my lap because it loves me… Karma and kismet are very similar.” – Joe & Toni (32:39–32:51)
• Metaphors likening fame to a burning cigarette (ephemerality and destructiveness), and to glamor with an edge of decay.
  • “Then glowing like the end of a cigarette. Wow, she came out…” – Joe (18:09)
  • “Celebrities… feel like they’re glowing… The fact that it’s compared to the end of a cigarette—cigarettes, they burn out famously.” – Toni (18:14)
• Examination of showbiz as both facade and violence—false lashes, bruises, headshots (49:55–51:47).

7. Breaking the Fourth Wall & Audience Address

• The song famously concludes with Swift thanking the band, the dancers, and the audience—literally breaking the fourth wall (68:10–68:36).
  • “Thank you for the unforgettable night. We’ll see you next time. Give it up for the band, the dancers, and of course, Sabrina. I love you, Taylor. That’s our show. We love you so much. Good night.” – Toni quoting Taylor (68:25)
• The hosts reflect on the meta quality: the album as a show, the listeners as participants.

8. Feminist Context: Artistry, Double Standards, and Evolution

• Extended discourse on the unfair scrutiny and double standards faced by female artists, contrasting Swift’s evolution with the likes of Bob Dylan (16:17–17:02, 15:05–15:07).
  • “What they don't realize is that they kind of are feeding into this cycle of this patriarchal double standard.” – Toni (15:05)

9. Personal Anecdotes, Impressions & Humor

• Toni peppers the episode with musical impressions—Britney Spears, Ariana Grande, Bob Dylan, Nirvana—showcasing humor and versatility (see 23:05, 23:19, 25:43, 27:09).
• Tangents include meta-jokes about podcasting, age, cultural knowledge gaps, and family banter, e.g.:
  • “Not everybody can have a cool father like I do. He’s a really nice, fun fellow. If you’re in DC, Ladies, hit this guy up!” – Toni (35:33)
  • “Life of a show guy is to become a meme where your own daughter is making fun of you.” – Joe (37:51)

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “Taylor Swift is a modern day Shakespeare. But The Life of a Showgirl isn’t just a great duet...it’s Taylor’s most meta song.” – Joe (00:16)
• “Kitty is kind of an infantilizing name…You don’t really expect it to be…the darker underside of being a showgirl.” – Toni (03:29)
• “This album is clearly about fame, the price of fame, the choices that women make, and the difference between your public life and your private life.” – Joe (08:25)
• "Then glowing like the end of a cigarette. Wow, she came out…” – Joe (18:09)
• _"You're softer than a kitten. Right? Which means you bruise easily, presumably." – Joe (31:14)
• _"Karma is a cat. Purring in my lap because it loves me right now. Karma and kismet are very similar." – Joe & Toni (32:39)
• “So they leave us for dead. Now this has a lot of potential meanings… Taylor’s spoken often about when you get to your 30s, women singers have a time limit.” – Joe (43:20)
• “But I’m immortal now, baby dolls. I couldn’t if I tried.” – (47:48)
• “Thank you for the unforgettable night. We’ll see you next time. Give it up for…the band, the dancers, and of course, Sabrina. I love you, Taylor.” – Toni as Taylor (68:25)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Time | Segment | |--------------|----------------------------------------------------------| | 00:00–04:45 | Introduction & Album/Thematic Setup | | 04:45–07:58 | “Keys to the City”, ‘Kitty’ as a Character, Fame Motifs | | 08:15–11:15 | The Price of Fame: Scrutiny, Cancel Culture, Legacy | | 13:16–15:07 | Feminist Critique: Double Standards, Celebrity Evolution | | 18:07–19:39 | Cigarette Imagery: The Ephemerality of Stardom | | 22:41–23:33 | Britney Spears Impersonation Segment | | 27:09–27:21 | Impressions: Ariana Grande, Chapel Roan, Bob Dylan | | 32:39–32:59 | Cats, Kitty, Karma, and Kismet: Interlocking Motifs | | 38:23–40:26 | Generational Cycles: Showbiz, Ophelia, and Marjorie | | 43:20–45:01 | Changing Eras & Metaphorical Death in Pop | | 47:47–52:49 | Violent Metaphors, Headshots, and Legacy | | 58:32–59:06 | Immortality, Marjorie, and the Nature of Artistic Fame | | 64:55–66:00 | Taylor’s Tour Docuseries: The Real “Showgirl” Life | | 68:10–69:44 | Breaking the Fourth Wall: Finale/Listener Address |

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Memorable Moments

• Musical Impressions: Toni’s spot-on Britney Spears, Bob Dylan, Ariana Grande.
• Playful Generational Banter: Toni roasting Joe’s “meme dad” status, references to cultural out-of-touchness (37:49, 38:01).
• Cultural References: From Shakespeare to Stephen King to Marilyn Monroe, the episode weaves pop culture through the discussion.
• Meta-commentary: Consistent reflection on the podcasting process, audience dynamics, and their own cross-generational dynamic.

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Final Takeaways

• “The Life of a Showgirl” is both personal and universal—a lens on female celebrity, artistic legacy, and the costs and rewards of creative ambition.
• Swift’s songwriting operates on multiple levels: self-reference, intertextuality, and social commentary, offering “tools” for anyone seeking to tell compelling stories, not just fans.
• The power of storytelling—and reframing fame as both sacrifice and immortality—runs through the episode, culminating in the metatheatrical closing of the song and podcast alike.

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For Future Episodes

Watch for upcoming episodes ranking all 12 albums, including more special guests, musical impressions, and deeper dives into both Swiftian and adjacent pop culture storytelling!

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“Thank you for the unforgettable night. We’ll see you next time.”
— Joe & Toni (68:25)

Transcript

[Antonia]

Happy New Year. This is Decoding Taylor Swift, where we dig into the deeper meaning of Taylor's songs. Today, we will transform how you think about the title track and final song of her album, the Life of a Showgirl, with the help of my swifty father, a storytelling expert recognized by Rolling Stone magazine.

[Joe Rowe]

Hi, I'm Joe Rowe, and my daughter Antonia is great at decoding lyrics, writing, and making people laugh. And Taylor Swift is a modern day Shakespeare. But the Life of a Showgirl isn't just a great duet with Sabrina Carpenter. It's Taylor's most meta song and the key to unlocking the meaning of the whole album.

[Antonia]

Interesting. More meta than mastermind.

[Joe Rowe]

When we finish it, we can discuss whether it's more meta. Why don't we dive in?

[Antonia]

Sure.

[Joe Rowe]

And as we discussed, the Fate of Ophelia was. Was the foreshadow. And this song is the kind of ironic twist.

[Antonia]

Yes.

[Joe Rowe]

In one sense, the particularly meta part, she breaks the fourth wall at the end. Right. And the very first line, if this is completing the whole album, the very first line of the album in the Fate of Ophelia was, I heard you calling on the megaphone. Right. The megaphone was the microphone that Travis used on his podcast. At the end of this song, she's gonna grab the microphone and basically thank everybody for the whole, you know, thank the band, thank Sabrina, all that.

[Antonia]

Sure.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. So this. This is the full circularity of the album. And we will see. This song is incredibly circular to Taylor's own life. Okay. Her name was Kitty. Made her money being pretty and witty. They gave her the keys to this city. They said she didn't do it legitly. Okay. So the name Kitty.

[Antonia]

Right.

[Joe Rowe]

This is sort of central to the whole song. We know from watching the Fate of Ophelia video that this is Kitty Finley.

[Antonia]

Yes.

[Joe Rowe]

And right before the scene in which Taylor is about to be photographed in the same mode of Cleopatra.

[Antonia]

Right. In the Fate of Ophelia.

[Joe Rowe]

In the Fate of Ophelia, the music video. In the music video of Fatal Ophelia, there is a scene display.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

What do they call that? Is there a word for that?

[Antonia]

It's like a slate, A little like.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah, the slate. Right. The slate says Kitty Finley. It also says sequins are forever.

[Antonia]

Right. And so the name Kitty Finley comes from Kitty being the name of her mom's Great Dane. Very important to her. Her mom. And her mom is, you know, obviously a very important person in Taylor's life. And then Finley comes from the last name of her grandmother, Marjorie.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. And Marjorie, a showgirl.

[Antonia]

Yes.

[Joe Rowe]

Very successful, huge influence. And obviously Taylor wrote a whole song, one of her greatest. I think we would agree, Marjorie, a very moving song and very relevant to this. In fact, everything's gonna be relevant to this. So anyway, that's what Taylor said. The name Kitty was chosen for that reason. She said that on the Jimmy Fallon show. But we know she's a little bit of an unreliable narrator because her explanation for wood, that it, you know, that it was just about superstitions, was not complete. And I think we will see there's a lot more going on with the name Kitty here. Made her money being pretty and witty.

[Antonia]

Well, Kitty is kind of an infantilizing name. It's kind of cutesy. It's kind of. You don't really expect it to be, I don't know, the darker underside of being a showgirl. Somebody named Kitty.

[Joe Rowe]

Sure. True. And look, I think there's a lot of reasons for this.

[Antonia]

Yeah. Well, it's rhymes with a very interesting influence for Taylor Swift, which is Britney Spears. Britney Kitty. It's not a perfect rhyme, but. And there are a lot of parallels in the song between Britney Spears and Kitty.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, let's get into that, too. And I'm just. Do a little foreshadow. You're softer than a kitten.

[Antonia]

Right, right.

[Joe Rowe]

Not an accident. Kitty and kitten. Right. And this is part of the meta and circular nature of this song.

[Ad Read Voice]

Sure.

[Joe Rowe]

This song is almost. Almost like a Twilight Zone episode in. In how it plays with things. So, yes. They gave her the keys to the city. Right. And of course, we know again, Britney.

[Antonia]

Spears got the keys to Las Vegas.

[Joe Rowe]

Nice.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

Someone's been doing their research.

[Antonia]

I have been doing my research. It's almost like my job is to do a podcast. Yes. Where we analyze the deeper meaning between Taylor Swift songs. And of course, my job is to do research. It's almost. It's not quite like that. No, but it's like. Almost like that. It's like very close.

[Joe Rowe]

Very close to that. And also the keys, of course, we remember the key change in a father figure.

[Antonia]

Well, we can also say that in. Oh, man. What's the song and reputation. The keys that used to be mine. Oh, yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

I mean the. The getaway car.

[Antonia]

Yeah. But there's another one because getaway car.

[Joe Rowe]

Had also had a key change. Right. Where she takes the keys to steal the key. His key.

[Antonia]

Hold on. Ah, man. What's the song?

[Joe Rowe]

Getaway car. Look what you made me do.

[Antonia]

Yeah. So they're in. Look what you made me do is. I Don't like your kingdom keys. They once belonged to me. So very, very famous kind of little metaphors, keys to the city.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, she obviously uses the word key, does key changes sometimes to emphasize the changing of the keys. And then they gave her the keys to this city, then they said she didn't do it legitly. All right, so this is a cancellation of some sort, right? A reference to.

[Antonia]

I mean, not even that, because this goes beyond cancel. I mean, people, since, like the, I mean, since before you could get quote, unquote canceled, I've always been saying, like, I don't know, the legitness of people's rises to success. You know, Nepo baby has been a term for a while. And, you know, I mean, whether or not you believe that some success is deserved versus some success which is undeserved, I think the fact of the matter is if you use your talent on a daily basis, if you are clearly good at what you do, then at least most of the success that you have is pretty deserved.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, and let's remember, at least that's my opinion, the history. Being a performer used to be viewed as a degraded occupation.

[Antonia]

Right, right. And there was no celebrity, really. I mean, and if you, if you were a celebrity, maybe that was the exception. But yeah, no people, Performers like people in Chicago. I mean, like, that was not.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, and, and if we go all the way back to Shakespeare's day.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

Ophelia would have been played by a boy.

[Antonia]

Right. So true. Would have been played by some random.

[Joe Rowe]

Twink, would have been a showboy. But the point is, yes, she didn't do it legitly. This also is a question. Right. So you could imagine people of any day saying, well, does some showgirl deserve the keys to the city? Normally that's given to like.

[Antonia]

Right, Like a senator.

[Joe Rowe]

Right? Someone.

[Antonia]

Yes, right, yeah, somebody like an important, like an activist.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. And not just for pure celebrity.

[Antonia]

Well, although something interesting, I think, just as I'm thinking about it, a lot of careers like, you know, that can become public facing at some point, if you do them on a small scale, are not always very respected. You know, fame is very interesting because it's a big affirmer of your talent. But it can also be, well, once you end up famous, it's kind of like you're in the ball game where now people question whether or not you're even talented. Right.

[Joe Rowe]

They build you up to. I mean, that's the motif is the media builds you up and then so they can tear you down as being.

[Antonia]

Like a Small time activist.

[Ad Read Voice]

Right.

[Antonia]

Being a small time performer, people are like, oh, okay. Small time activist, people are like, oh, okay. Being a small time politician, people are like, oh, okay. You know, stuff like that. It's very hard once you get famous, you're affirmed, but you're also kind of scrutinized. Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

I mean, you're. And in this day and age. But famous people were always scrutinized. And of course, she referred to what, Clara Bow.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Ad Read Voice]

Well, you.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

So she. I mean, she has all. And. And of course, Elizabeth Taylor. Right, right. So she is. You know, this. This album is clearly about fame, the price of fame, the choices that women make.

[Antonia]

Sure.

[Joe Rowe]

And the difference between your public life and your private life.

[Antonia]

Yeah. And. And in a sense, when you become famous, you're trading away the ability to make mistakes and fix them quietly and easily and just learn for, you know, the money. Money.

[Joe Rowe]

And. Yeah.

[Antonia]

I mean, you're. You're selling. You're. You're selling your. Your person.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah. Well, you're selling your soul as we will get to. Right. I mean, it's very explicit in this song that, that.

[Antonia]

That you're also selling your relationships with everybody that you know. You know, you can't. Right. I mean, very few people I'm sure you can trust, but it's very hard.

[Joe Rowe]

And there's a cost to celebrity that she referred to in Cancel that we talked about for cancellation. Right. Which is that your friends. Right. Suddenly your friends become in danger.

[Antonia]

Right.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. You've elevated them, too. And maybe they didn't ask for it. Right. And we also know, of course, in theory, that's part of the reason why she and Joe Alwyn broke up. Right. Which was. Right. He didn't like that. You know, and clearly it's gonna make your personal life more challenging. So she's. I bought a ticket.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

So I. She's dancing in her garters and fishnets. 50 in the cast, zero missteps.

[Antonia]

Yeah. Kind of like the ERAS tour. You know, there's a lot in the cast. No missteps. Yes. A lot of practice.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. Looking back and. Right. So the zero missteps is a statement of a lot of work.

[Antonia]

A recognition like a misstep can be metaphorical, but also, like, physically, you're not stepping the wrong way.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. The dancers are making no mistakes. And that kind of pressure, you know, and requires a lot of practice. Looking back, I guess it was kismet.

[Antonia]

Sure.

[Joe Rowe]

Okay. Only time I checked, she's ever used the word kismet in a song.

[Antonia]

Sure. I Mean. It's a very rare word. You don't often hear it.

[Joe Rowe]

Right.

[Antonia]

It's a loan word from. What is it, Arabic?

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah. It means fate.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

And the question of. And looking back now. So she's jumped ahead here now, Right. She's in the middle of this verse where she's singing about a present time or some, you know, time period. She now leaps way ahead in time to look back on this to say, hey, guess what? This was a very fateful moment.

[Antonia]

Yes.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. I waited by the stage door, packed in with the autograph hounds barking her name. And that's just a very interesting extended metaphor.

[Antonia]

Sure. It's a very common kind of, I don't know, thing to compare paparazzi to, you know, like barking hounds or animals. And they're, you know, I don't know, roaring or, you know, very loud things are often compared to animals also because, you know, it's very easy to feel like you're being hounded by the press.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. So one of the other things you lose with fame. Right. Your privacy. Right. You get hounded. Right. Attention seekers. And also not accidentally, one would say, this is hounds and barking. This is a dog metaphor. Dog versus a kitty.

[Antonia]

Wow, that's so true. True. That's a good point.

[Joe Rowe]

She is, as always, the word choice is as. We'll see this song, like Cancelled, and like many of the songs we've discussed on this album, that. This album, who, as you remember when it was dropped, people. There's literally, literally headline like, has Taylor Swift lost the ability to write lyrics?

[Antonia]

You know, I don't think it's that. I. I do think, though, that. Yeah, no, no, I think that the. I think what it is is that the world has changed a lot since she started releasing music.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah.

[Antonia]

And she is. She is very great at capturing the zeitgeist. But you have to ask, like, was her music capturing the zeitgeist or was the zeitgeist just aligned with her music in that moment, and now perhaps it's diverging and. I don't know. I think about that sometimes.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, I think there's also the other question, which is she doesn't write the same songs for the fans who have grown up with her. Right, Right. So she has a lot of fans and. But she doesn't, like, stop trying something new.

[Antonia]

Right.

[Joe Rowe]

And her life is evolving. And obviously she did get.

[Ad Read Voice]

Well.

[Antonia]

Obviously. Also, I think something important is that she didn't release music in the beginning of her career when the. I don't know, the media was. So I Don't know. It had a hegemony over every single type of, like, I don't know, social media, like, has every type of media and a chokehold. And perhaps there was more of a coherent zeitgeist to kind of capture. Now there's, like, I don't know, factions and splinters. And the zeitgeist is perhaps that there. There really isn't one clear zeitgeist. That there are types. And of course, and I think now it's hard to do that in a song because you're still writing for kind of. I mean, all of your songs, they can't be about multiple things. Right. That's messy there.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, her songs are.

[Antonia]

No, I mean, they can't be catering to.

[Joe Rowe]

No, no. Right.

[Antonia]

Opposite audiences.

[Joe Rowe]

And. And she continues to try to attract a new audience, I think.

[Antonia]

Yeah. And she is very good at catering to multiple audiences. But when you're catering to audiences, like groups that are like, never Taylor Swift, like, you know, the most basic opinion ever of any freaking. I don't know, most. I. What upsets me about my generation sometimes is that, like, you know, very, very basic opinions is that, like, oh, I hate Taylor Swift. And they haven't listened to, I don't know, anything since, like. Yeah, I don't know, they've listened to, like, they've heard one song on the radio by her. They've heard, like, you know, a bunch of very unnuanced takes on some of her lyrics. Yeah, I hate Taylor Swift just because it's like, what? It's like hip to hate Taylor Swift. Okay. You know, and then some of them try to justify by saying she's the trad wife, which is, you know, kind of ridiculous. It's a little bit ridiculous. And even if you're upset about all the stuff that she's. I mean, her private jet, I'm upset about.

[Joe Rowe]

I'm like, girl, I think that's legit.

[Antonia]

I think that's a. But the thing is, is that every other musician uses exorbitant amounts of fossil fuels every time they travel. You know, they have weird, weird skeletons in their closet. You know, I mean, you don't hear people saying, oh, I hate Bill Clinton just because he's now. I mean, he's involved with Jeffrey Epstein. Like, oh, I hate Bill Clinton. I hate all of people, you know, that have been released in the files. You don't hear people saying that, you know. You know, like, it. It took. I mean, it took years for the royal family to excommunicate Prince Andrew, even though We've known since, like, the early 2010s that he was involved with Jeffrey Epstein. And it's just an insane double standard that I think people think that they're too cool to fall prey of. You know, they say, I'm not sexist, but I. But I don't like Taylor Swift. But what they don't realize is that they kind of are feeding into this cycle of. Of this patriarchal double standard.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. Well, when I talked to people, Tosef, I said, if all you know about her is her early music, right, Then the pandemic was kind of a very big dividing line where she just doubled the output.

[Antonia]

She did. She was so productive. Yeah, yeah. Her Noah Khan, you know, cranking out music during COVID I think. I think, honestly, also, it's like people who are fans of Bob Dylan, you never hear them say, oh, man, you know, like, his newer albums were just certainly not what they used to be. I mean, he started moving into these experimental things, like, that's not even what his movie's about. And people aren't saying, like, ugh, Bob Dylan sucks. Like, I hate him. No, people are fans of Bob Dylan for the best work that he puts out, which is phenomenal work. And if you're going to be a fan of a musical artist, you can't just be like, ugh, their very first old stuff was, like, country, and now she's putting out an album. That's shit. I hate her. Like, absolutely. You can't do that. That's not what art is.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, and. And, you know, this gets to the point that, yes, she has evolved and the world's rapidly changing, and to get to what you were talking about just a second ago. Yeah. We live in a world where. Where, you know, rage bait, Right. Is. Is one of the top phrases of the year. Right. So we live in a world where you can get attention, Right. For picking out a couple of lines and just trashing it horribly. Right. That's sort of the world that. That we operate. That's certainly the political world, but it's also become the celebrity world. And so, yeah, if. If you ask yourself, do you want to be judged by the dumbest things that you've said? No, no, I don't think any of us would like that. So, you know, let's. Let's carry on here. Then glowing like the end. So we're back.

[Antonia]

This is my favorite lyric in the whole.

[Joe Rowe]

Then glowing like the end of a cigarette. Wow, she came out.

[Antonia]

Yeah. I think that is a very important lyric number one. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. 2014, Britney got held back for smoking. She got a warning for smoking a cigarette in an airplane. She's very famous for, you know, smoking. But I think that the idea of using like, obviously celebrities, you know, they feel like they're glowing, like they're so shiny. But the fact that it's compared to the end of a cigarette, right. You know, cigarettes, they burn out famously.

[Joe Rowe]

You know, they also kill you.

[Antonia]

They do kill you slowly. You have to have a lot of it and. And they will kill you. They lead to cancers. I think, I just love this line. I think this is just such a brilliant line. I think honestly, this is just, ah. I just love this line. This was the first part of this song. The first time I listened to this song. It's just this line, like, stuck out to me. I was like, damn, like, that's low key. Like, yes. Like, like, like, wow, celebrities do glow. Like the end of cigarettes. Wow, that's so accurate. Taylor Swift, good job. Yes. She really captured that, like. Yeah, I loved it.

[Joe Rowe]

I said, you're living my dream.

[Antonia]

Pretty straightforward, right? Then she said to me, hey, thank you for the lovely bouquet. You're sweeter than a peach? But you don't know the life of a showgirl babe? And you're never ever gonna wait. The more you play the more that you pay? You're softer than a kitten? So you don't know the life of the show of a showgirl babe and you're never gonna wanna.

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[Joe Rowe]

Right.

[Antonia]

I like the never gonna wanna. Never gonna wanna. You know, it's a lot of ends and annas.

[Joe Rowe]

Yes.

[Antonia]

As he would say.

[Joe Rowe]

Absolutely. So this, There's a lot going on here. You don't know the life of a showgirl babe. She is saying. Obviously Kitty is saying this.

[Antonia]

This is an accurate statement for most listeners of this song.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. So she's saying it to the audience. To the, to the audience. And through the songs that we've already discussed. It's already clear.

[Antonia]

It's pretty clear.

[Joe Rowe]

Right.

[Antonia]

And you know, hey, I don't know. Life of a showgirl. I wouldn't mind it, you know, I mean, I feel like. I feel like. I feel like I try to say things that are totally, you know, somebody could cancel me for them, but I stand by them, you know, like not comments that are bigoted, but sometimes I say things that are a little hot. Little hot takes about things. You.

[Joe Rowe]

You.

[Antonia]

I know, I know. This is kind of a surprising admission you have. I just feel like. I feel like I've already said this, but I can't be blackmailed. I don't think it's possible for me to be blackmailed because every bad decision I make, I'm very upfront about it. Like, I feel like, yeah, like, I stand by it.

[Joe Rowe]

That's. Now Taylor's trick, I think is simple.

[Antonia]

I think you have to, man.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, that's true. We live in the age of over sharing. I think that's pretty much been established. The now. Lovely. Of course, we talked about this. This is the first of many uses of lovely. Sure, we talked about it.

[Antonia]

Oh, my gosh.

[Ad Read Voice]

Yes.

[Antonia]

And it's another passive aggressive use. Thank you for the lovely bouquet. You're sweeter than a beach but you don't know the life of a showgirl babe and you're never ever going to.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. So this is definitely like.

[Narrator for Patrick Picklebottom]

Oh, my God.

[Joe Rowe]

Exactly what she was talking about.

[Antonia]

Like, girl, calm down. I mean, Taylor Swift in Honey. Taylor Swift met Britney Spears actually when she was 13 years old. She like went backstage on one of the tours and she blew Britney Spears away. And then they took a photo together and it's really cute. So I don't think that Britney Spears was like, that's so cute. You're never gonna know the life of a showgirl babe. Do you like my Britney Spears impression?

[Joe Rowe]

I do, I do.

[Antonia]

Like, oops, I did it again. That was really good.

[Joe Rowe]

It was. Wow. This is like An Ariana Grande dude.

[Antonia]

Like decoding Brit Spears. But I just sing Britney Spears songs in my Britney Spears voice.

[Joe Rowe]

We can.

[Antonia]

Toxic I'm slipping under taste of a poison paradise I'm addicted to you don't you know that you're toxic?

[Joe Rowe]

Wow.

[Antonia]

I know. Wasn't that literally Britney? She like possessed me.

[Joe Rowe]

Wow, that's amazing. So, yes, I think, by the way.

[Antonia]

Yeah, that's my Ariana.

[Joe Rowe]

As an aside, I think that we can do songs other than Taylor if they're relevant to Taylor.

[Antonia]

Wow.

[Joe Rowe]

Because I was thinking, I was, I was in fact talking to my chiropractor.

[Antonia]

Oh my God.

[Joe Rowe]

And he was in fact making the.

[Antonia]

Same point me when I was talking to my chiropractor. What was he saying?

[Joe Rowe]

You know, my chiropractor. You've actually.

[Antonia]

I love your chiropractor. He's such a silly man. Yes, I'm a big fan of him.

[Joe Rowe]

He's actually fan of heavy metal, which is really funny.

[Antonia]

No, I love him. If you ever meet him, like, you wouldn't like. He like.

[Joe Rowe]

He's great. I reluctant to mention his name, but he is great. And if you need a chiropractor and you're in the DC area, please reach out to me.

[Antonia]

Oh my God.

[Joe Rowe]

And I, I.

[Antonia]

He will refer you to his chiropractor.

[Joe Rowe]

But look, we showed in the first episode, right. That the song I knew you were trouble when you walked in. Right. The first line is once upon a.

[Antonia]

Time, few mistakes ago.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. And the once upon a time is kind of a reference to one of the most famous songs of all time that begins with once upon a time.

[Antonia]

Which is once upon a time.

[Joe Rowe]

You dress so vine.

[Antonia]

You threw the buns in your prime, didn't you? Didn't you?

[Joe Rowe]

Right.

[Antonia]

That's my. That's my Bob Dylan.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. And as we discussed, both those songs are about a woman who starts off on top of and crashes and burns. Right. And in the case of the woman in Dylan's song, she's warned people said, beware doll, you're bound to fall. You thought they were all kidding you. And in the case of you, you sue. Right. In the case of I knew you were in trouble. It's the internal warning that Taylor ignores. So yes, we could do an episode on.

[Antonia]

Sure.

[Joe Rowe]

Like a Rolling Stone.

[Antonia]

Oh, that'd be so cute. Special episodes, decoding Bob Dylan.

[Joe Rowe]

And we could do an epis.

[Antonia]

I would sing it if you like, did that because I have a Bob Dylan. Once upon a time. Dress so fine through the bums of dime in your Prime. Then you.

[Joe Rowe]

Oh, wow. Well, we're definitely gonna be doing that. So that is something to look forward to next year. Or. Which is for all of you in 2026 as we discussed.

[Antonia]

Oh my God. Yeah, you guys are hearing this in 2026, but we're actually recording this in 2025. So what is actually happening is time travel. Do you understand that?

[Joe Rowe]

You guys, this is like time capsule to the future.

[Antonia]

Wow, this is beautiful. My God. You guys are hearing us in 2025 and you guys are gonna be in 2026.

[Narrator for Patrick Picklebottom]

Wow.

[Antonia]

That's crazy. We'll be traveling through the fourth dimension.

[Joe Rowe]

Space time together in 2026. We are going to do the eras tour songs. Yeah, right. And that means that we can do. I knew you were trouble.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

Which means that we can maybe do an episode of Bob Dylan.

[Antonia]

We do a special episode.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. And since we're also going to be doing all too well, which we discussed in the second episode, we do point out that.

[Antonia]

That.

[Joe Rowe]

That she does refer to smells like Teen Spirit. Teen Spirit.

[Antonia]

I also have a Nirvana.

[Joe Rowe]

You do?

[Antonia]

Yeah, it's. Oh, man. Oh, wait, no dow. This is dangerous.

[Joe Rowe]

That is dangerous.

[Antonia]

My AC DC is better than that.

[Joe Rowe]

All right, well, if I'd have known that this was what was needed to get you to sing, then we will.

[Antonia]

Definitely just cuz Taylor sounds so normal. If we did Ariana Grande, I could also do that. She's like, thank you. Next. Next. Thank you.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, no, I was thinking of. Of Chapel Roan.

[Antonia]

Oh, yeah, I can do that too. She's like. She's like. Oh, man. What is it? I'm Chapel Ron. I'm your favorite artist. Favorite artist.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, you know, I definitely.

[Antonia]

Yeah, let's.

[Joe Rowe]

Let's get back to the song. But this is just teasing. Teasing. 2026 is going to be 2026.

[Antonia]

I'm gonna break out every single one of my imp. Yeah, don't get offended, liberals. They're all going to be white people. So it's fine.

[Joe Rowe]

You heard it here first.

[Antonia]

And I just want to say, as an Italian. Italians are white people. You can totally do the accent anyway, just in case you were wondering.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, you did the Italian accent, as you may remember.

[Antonia]

No, no, we talked decoding when the moon hits your eye.

[Joe Rowe]

Like we will if we do songs that are relevant to Taylor somehow.

[Antonia]

I think Taylor Swift eats pizza, right? She likes them. She has eyes. Well, she likes them and she's seen the moon. So when the moon hits her eye, if the pizza. Sometimes it'll look like a big pizza pie. If she's hungry enough.

[Joe Rowe]

If the pizza pie were made out of sourdough bread, then it would be totally relevant to Taylor.

[Antonia]

So true.

[Joe Rowe]

Okay, let's get back to the song.

[Antonia]

Get back to the song.

[Joe Rowe]

So you don't know the life showgirl. And you're never ever gonna. So this is a statement. You're never gonna be a showgirl.

[Antonia]

Sure.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. And one of the reasons why. And then she says, but wait, the.

[Antonia]

More you play, the more that you pay. An interesting addition is the weight. Wait, like she's leaving. Like, she's like, okay, well, I'm never gonna. So I'm fucking leaving this conversation. She's like, wait, the more you play, the more that you pay. You're softer than a kitten. So you don't know the life of a show, girlbite. But you're never gonna wanna.

[Joe Rowe]

Right?

[Antonia]

And you're never gonna wanna. So how many butts to answer in this song? Did you even count?

[Joe Rowe]

I didn't even count.

[Antonia]

That's like, a lack of foresight on you, your part.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, we did butts last time.

[Antonia]

Well, we should do them every time. Okay, we should do a big butt counter.

[Joe Rowe]

We will do a big butt counter on every one.

[Antonia]

Two right here.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah.

[Antonia]

I'm just kidding. I mean, just me. So mostly one. It's the Italian side. See? See? Wait, it's doing it.

[Ad Read Voice]

I did it.

[Joe Rowe]

Oh, I did it. I made a thumbs up and it showed. The thumbs up.

[Antonia]

Yeah. Because the NSA agent is like, yes, you do have a big butt, Antonia. And that's beautiful.

[Joe Rowe]

I see. The problem, I think, is, is it can't be too big. And apparently it has to be a white male's thumb. So.

[Antonia]

Sorry, how is it, like, sexist? Like, I've heard of it being racist.

[Joe Rowe]

Cause this is Peter Thiel doing this. Oh, my God. What do you think he's gonna do this for you?

[Antonia]

Oh, my God.

[Joe Rowe]

I'm sorry.

[Antonia]

So true. Peter Thiel would never let a woman do a thumbs up. Wait, do it again. Do it again.

[Joe Rowe]

Can I do it again? I don't know what we did.

[Antonia]

No, Peter Thiel's mad that we've called him out.

[Joe Rowe]

I'm sorry.

[Antonia]

Yeah. He forgot that you were Jewish for a second.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, he forgot that I'm not really a fan. I'm sorry, Peter, but, you know. Okay, Peter, not really a fan of Pandora or whatever your name of your company is.

[Antonia]

Lord, nobody knows. What is it? Nexplanon. Oh, no, that's the birth control. It's. What is it? Palantir.

[Joe Rowe]

Palantir.

[Antonia]

Something stupid like that. Sounds like a birth control itself.

[Joe Rowe]

All right, so anyway, but it is significant here that she's saying you're never ever gonna. Right. And we'll come back to this. I think the more that you play, the more that you pay. So she's saying there's a more and more of a cost. The longer you're a showgirl, the more you're going to pay. That could be any type of cost. Could be. There's just a lot of ways that people pay.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

You're softer than a kitten. Okay, so this is a big deal. Right. Because this is the reference back to kitty we're also talking about.

[Antonia]

I just want to say that kittens grow into, you know, big, kind of very. Cats that are very slick.

[Joe Rowe]

Right? No, no. And kitty is a shortened form of kitten. Right. And. But again, we're also gonna see that kitty is about to be sung by Sabrina Carpenter, well known sex kitten. Pretty much. If you Google Sabrina Carpenter and sex kitten, you'll see. No, no, she is playing.

[Antonia]

She embraces female sexuality.

[Joe Rowe]

She does. And that's. And as do many ex Disney young stars. Because they want to show, hey, we're not pure Disney, you know, non sexual beings. You know, who. When we were teenagers. Right. So she has very good company with, of course, Britney.

[Antonia]

Yes. And Olivia Rodrigo.

[Joe Rowe]

And of course Hannah Montana.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

Miley Cyrus and Demi Lovato.

[Antonia]

That is true. Dove Cameron.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah. So it's pretty standard to. To. But here it's. You're softer than a kitten. Right. Which. Which. Which means you bruise easily, presumably. Right. And. But I will say kitten and kitty are connected to kismet.

[Antonia]

Sure.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. Because they all. The ki.

[Antonia]

Ki.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. And the t. Sure. Right. Kitty and kismet. And I don't think it's an accident then that she used kismet. I would just say, as I was thinking about this, she doesn't use the word kitty or kitten in other songs. She does write a lot about cats.

[Antonia]

Yes, she does. She loves cats. I guess I'll just stumble on home to my cats alone. Unless you're gonna come along.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, but here's an important lyric that she has.

[Antonia]

What?

[Joe Rowe]

Karma is a cat.

[Antonia]

Oh, that's so true. Purring in my lap because it loves me right now.

[Joe Rowe]

Karma and kismet are very similar.

[Antonia]

Sure. Because.

[Joe Rowe]

Very similar.

[Antonia]

Sometimes you're. Sometimes kismet. You know, fate gives you karma.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. And karma is basically poetic justice. It's the fate that you deserve.

[Antonia]

Yes. Loan words from different regions of the world.

[Joe Rowe]

So anyway, this is again how Taylor thinks. This is a song. That is again, because as we'll see, it brings up selling your soul. Right. When you sell your soul, you are definitely going to get a certain kismet or a certain karma. Right. No one sells their soul in a song or a book or a movie without some really big payment. So. Okay, let's jump ahead to the verse that Sabrina sings by herself.

[Antonia]

Say it, don't spray it.

[Joe Rowe]

Oh, can you do Sabrina? Sabrina? Does she have a voice that.

[Antonia]

Not really. She just sings in a certain way. She was a menace the baby of her family in Lenox her father whored around like all men did her mother took pills and played tennis so she waited by the stage door as the club promoter arrived she said, I'd sell my soul to have a taste of a magnificent life.

[Joe Rowe]

All right. This is done by both of them.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

All right.

[Antonia]

That's what they do.

[Joe Rowe]

So she was a menace.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

Right.

[Antonia]

You didn't like my singing.

[Joe Rowe]

I did like your Sabrina.

[Antonia]

I didn't like my Sabrina because Sabrina, she sounds like normal.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, the point. Yeah.

[Antonia]

She doesn't have a fun voice like Britney Spears has a fun voice.

[Joe Rowe]

And to be honest, those of us who aren't maybe so good at distinguishing these things when you listen.

[Antonia]

Oh, so you think that all women sound the same?

[Joe Rowe]

No, no. I'm just saying one of the things that people complained about this song a little bit is that Sabrina and Taylor don't have dramatically different voices.

[Antonia]

They have pretty different voices.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, baby, it's just.

[Antonia]

She was a menace the baby of the family in Lenox. So Lenox is a very rich place, affluent place in Massachusetts, famous for having clubs that would often promote singer songwriters and.

[Joe Rowe]

Tanglewood.

[Antonia]

Tanglewood, yes.

[Joe Rowe]

So a little higher brow, sort of a music than what this showgirl is doing.

[Antonia]

Sure. And her father hoard around like all men did. Sabrina Carpenter's father, actually, she has a song written about him called Emails that I Wish I could send or something like that. Oh, my God. What's the album called? I love that album, too. Emails. Yeah. I don't know.

[Joe Rowe]

Yes, right.

[Antonia]

Anyway, basically the whole song is about how her father was unfaithful, which is like low key. Hate men. So that's real.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, and we've talked many times that Taylor has a lot of negative characterizations of fathers. Right. Leaving like a father.

[Antonia]

Not everybody. Not everybody can have a cool father like I do. He's a pretty chill guy. He's a really nice, fun fellow. If you're in dc, Ladies, hit this Guy up.

[Joe Rowe]

Oh, no. So, yeah, and by the way, when we talked about the fate of Ophelia, the second verse of the Fate of Ophelia is also a similar flashback of Ophelia's story. And guess what? She's the eldest daughter of a nobleman. Right. And, of course, when we discuss that song, her father is one of the major reasons that she dies, because her father in the play orders her to stop seeing Hamlet and then to kind of pretend to be mean to him. And it's. So the point is a lot of parallel here. And of course, as we said, the fate of Ophelia and the life of a showgirl.

[Antonia]

Oh, my God. This is like our. This is like our. Mm. What's it. Oh, my God. Madame Marvel. Mm. Flick it around. Wicked Witch. That's like, what you do. You're like the life of a showgirl. The fuck. Fate of Ophelia. The life of a showgirl.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, that's because there's a. Not only is the structure the same, but it's the repeated f or V sound. Right?

[Antonia]

And Fate of Ophelia. Ff. Flip it around. Life of a showgirl. That's you. That's what you do.

[Ad Read Voice]

I do.

[Antonia]

I don't know, basically. Have you not seen that clip?

[Joe Rowe]

No.

[Antonia]

He's not up to date on the culture. But you saw it. Did you see the second Wicked?

[Joe Rowe]

I haven't seen it yet, no.

[Antonia]

Okay, well, you've seen the musical and, like, Madame Morrible, not to spoil. She's like the. Obviously, she's a villain. She. We've known this. And so the person who plays her. Oh, my gosh, I'm blanking on her name, but I love her. And she goes around to every interview she's at. She's like. Well, I think about it like this, you know, Madame Morrible. Mm. Flip it around. Wicked Witch. Talking about how she's like the actual.

[Joe Rowe]

Wicked witch of the show, and she.

[Antonia]

Does that every interview she. Where she's at. And it's very funny. So that's what you do with. I think in every episode. You're like the life of a showgirl. The fate of Ophelia. Like, you're like one of those memes where they're connecting the dots. No, you're. You're. No, but you're so smart. It's okay.

[Joe Rowe]

I feel like.

[Antonia]

But you are a meme.

[Joe Rowe]

The life of a show guy is to become a meme where your own daughter is making fun of you.

[Antonia]

Well, that's because there's so much to make Fun of.

[Joe Rowe]

Thank you so much.

[Antonia]

You're welcome. It's okay. Love you.

[Joe Rowe]

This is the fate of a podcast.

[Antonia]

Five year old dad, host of a.

[Joe Rowe]

Podcast on, that's talking about a showgirl and the fate of a feeling.

[Antonia]

I think the older your parents are, the more you can make fun of their lack of cultural understanding.

[Joe Rowe]

I'm sorry, what I want to say here.

[Antonia]

What did you want to say, Joe?

[Joe Rowe]

Is that you don't know the life of a showgirl and you're never gonna. The question here is we're getting to a circularity here because again, Kitty was chosen. I mean, the last name of Kitty Finley was chosen because of her grandmother. Her grandmother was a showgirl, a great singer, toured a lot. Right. A great inspiration to her. So this is getting to be a very meta song about Taylor because she is, as she says in the intro part of this, she is playing the character of this protege, or not really protege, but of the younger woman. But she's also clearly also the older woman.

[Antonia]

Right.

[Joe Rowe]

I mean, she's also Kitty. Right. And she's also her grandmother is Kitty. Right. Or her mother is Kitty. Right. Her mother's dog is Kitty. Right. So we're running a trope here which is about to expand into a whole even more meta thing. Oh, by the way, she was a menace. The baby of the family. So she's the baby of the family. Well, what do we know about the baby of the family? Right. From Taylor's. Right. So every youngest child felt they were raised up in the wild, Right? So that's from Elda's daughter.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. So she was a menace. Right. So in any way, in Taylor's mind, this character is kind of raised up in the wild because her father is this absent cheating father. Her mother is this spaced out on pills, whatever, and she realizes her only future is something entirely different and again, different type of music than, you know, your Lennox. Right. So she is going to wait by the stage door as the club promoter arrives and said, I'd sell my soul to have a taste of a magnificent life that's all mine.

[Antonia]

Yes. I interpreted that to be like she wanted her successes to be all hers.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. Which is something that Taylor has often said. And that of course is part of the theme of Opalite, right. Is that you make your own. Right. So again, this song is wrapping up pretty much all the songs in this album. But speaking of connecting to other songs, she said she'd sell her soul. Well, who do you sell your soul to?

[Antonia]

The music industry?

[Joe Rowe]

The devil.

[Antonia]

Oh, yeah. Well, sure.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. And that's what father figure. I drink the brown liquor. My dick's bigger. I can make a deal with the devil.

[Antonia]

Well, I think also brown liquor. I mean, like, you know, maybe it's a little bit of a stretch, but blood is like brownish. I mean, it's red but you know, not period blood.

[Joe Rowe]

The point is, we already know.

[Antonia]

Just skipped over that.

[Joe Rowe]

I did.

[Antonia]

It's okay.

[Joe Rowe]

We already know.

[Antonia]

He doesn't know the life of a showgirl.

[Joe Rowe]

And I never ever gonna. I barely know the life of a shogai or a shogun.

[Antonia]

What?

[Joe Rowe]

I don't know. Sorry. But the point is we know from.

[Antonia]

Oh, shogun.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah, shogun. Right. We know. We know from father figure.

[Antonia]

Such an odd guy.

[Joe Rowe]

Thank you.

[Ad Read Voice]

Yeah. Okay.

[Joe Rowe]

I'm doing a podcast on. I'm a 64 year old guy doing his podcast on Taylor Swift. I think that establishes me as a 65. I am 65.

[Antonia]

You said 64. I did, yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

Oh, man.

[Antonia]

Well, embarrassing. No, I remember because you're eligible for senior citizen discounts.

[Joe Rowe]

I remember. No, it's because I've been listening to Beatles Anthology and. And he sings, you know, when you're 64. Paul McCartney sings. Will you still feed me? Will you still feed me when I'm 64? But now that I'm 65, no one has to feed me at all. I guess it's just. Sorry.

[Antonia]

All he has in his fridge are like these weird corn tortillas and like guacamole dip. He doesn't have chips and he has goat yogurt. That's his fridge right now. No, it's okay. It's just really funny. I do you go off to college and then you realize that your parents are just. Don't eat without you. Like, they won't eat food. I'll come back. And my mom's fridge is equally empty. It's very odd. It's like. It's like oat milk and that's it. It's really alarming.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, another way of looking at it is that we kind of eat healthy when you're not here and then we have to eat.

[Antonia]

Oh my God. You mean you guys eat bad untasty food without me? And then with. With me, I actually help you to get good food.

[Joe Rowe]

Incredibly tasty. That's all I can tell you.

[Antonia]

He like.

[Joe Rowe]

Okay, okay. Let's try to get back to the song here. So selling your soul is not usually going to have a good outcome here. It's kind of interesting, the outcome. It has to have a taste of a Magnificent life. That's all mine. But that's not what showgirls get.

[Antonia]

They leave us for death. Right.

[Joe Rowe]

So they leave us for dead. Now this has a lot of potential meanings, right? One thing, of course, is just the actual death. Right. And.

[Antonia]

But did you like my Taylor Swift, Sabrina Carpenter together voice?

[Joe Rowe]

You. You can do both parts at the same time.

[Antonia]

Leave us for te.

[Joe Rowe]

Wow.

[Antonia]

I know. It's both of them together.

[Joe Rowe]

If you're doing a show out there in Chicago, let me know. Let her know she can play multiple parts. Saves you a lot of money. You don't have to pay two different actresses.

[Antonia]

You don't want to pay two. Two ugly bums. You just pay one ugly bum. I can do everything, right?

[Joe Rowe]

Well, or you don't. I mean, if you could have Antonia instead of two, you know, adults that have to be like paid.

[Antonia]

I know, I'm in college. I don't know what normal wages are. You can like give me a dollar a minute.

[Joe Rowe]

There you go. Well, dollar a minute is actually pretty good, huh? Yes, that's the disadvantage. She also doesn't know what. Yes. That a dollar minute is actually for a 18 year old.

[Antonia]

Well, that's 60 an hour. So it's a lot of money.

[Joe Rowe]

Not a bad age.

[Antonia]

It's almost like I asked that on purpose.

[Joe Rowe]

Almost.

[Antonia]

That's what you should pay me. You should pay me a dollar a minute.

[Joe Rowe]

So they leave us for dead. This is also metaphorical death, which is. She's spoken often about when you get to your 30s. You know, women singers kind of have a time limit. She's talked about 32 on when she did. She appeared on Jimmy Fallon for the Midnights album and she says she's 32 and that's sort of the age at which you're aged out of being, you know.

[Antonia]

So she's just happy to be here now, right?

[Joe Rowe]

Happy to be here. And of course, she's also in Cancelled, she refers to being canceled as a form of death. Uses a lot of different metaphors for that.

[Antonia]

Or like the old Taylor can't come to the phone right now.

[Ad Read Voice]

Why?

[Antonia]

Because she's dead.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. So.

[Antonia]

So.

[Joe Rowe]

And in fact. Yes. Right. This, this is.

[Antonia]

I think some of her eras, when she transitions into them, have like less. They're not as contiguous. And that's why she needs to use death and rebirth. Because reputation was very. But the difference between Lover, Folklore Evermore and even Midnights was like, you know, a natural evolution. It seemed.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, but not. But folklore was a big shock for a lot of people.

[Antonia]

Folklore was a Big shock. But she didn't need, you know, die and get reborn and look.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah. I don't know that.

[Antonia]

I had to be in a cabin alone for a while. You know, just like Stephen King or something. Stephen King. I always find a way to talk about him. What a silly guy. He thinks the Epstein files aren't real, which is crazy. He's just a crazy guy.

[Joe Rowe]

And we got. I got his book. Oh, yeah.

[Antonia]

For Christmas. I got On Writing by Stephen King. I'm a big Stephen King, so I haven't even. The problem is that I haven't really even read many of his books. Like, I've read it. That's. Well, that's it. I just am a big fan of him, conceptually.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, the Stand is the first one I read because people said this is, like, his best written book.

[Antonia]

Is it?

[Joe Rowe]

It's a great book.

[Antonia]

Okay, I should read that. I'll check that out from the library.

[Joe Rowe]

It's very thick, though.

[Antonia]

That's fine. I've seen it on shelves. I have Misery right now. I'm trying to read it.

[Joe Rowe]

What I liked about that is his ability to write characters. There's a character of a sociologist in the Stand, which is just, I thought, like, incredible.

[Ad Read Voice]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

And interestingly, by the way, for those people who are watching Pluribus.

[Antonia]

Yes.

[Joe Rowe]

The Stand and Pluribus have a very similar beginning. It's not. It's a lot more tragic in the Stand, but. So we're at the chorus again.

[Antonia]

Yeah. And this time it's kind of. It's the same lines, but it's perhaps a little bit more arguable. Who's singing it?

[Joe Rowe]

Right.

[Antonia]

Let's say.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. And she's. Right, she's. Are they both. They're both singing?

[Narrator for Patrick Picklebottom]

It's.

[Joe Rowe]

I mean, in the song.

[Antonia]

No. I mean, we don't know which perspective it's coming from.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. And I think that is important here because, again, this gets to the merging of stories, the crossing over of stories. And then we get the bridge.

[Antonia]

I took her pearls of wisdom hung them from my neck. Something else that kind of is reminiscent of perhaps a noose, you know. Anyway, I paid my dues with every bruise. You know, this is a very violent imagery. I knew what to expect. Do you want to take a skate on the ice? Inside my veins they rip me off like scooter brawn and, you know.

[Ad Read Voice]

Right.

[Joe Rowe]

Those two types of. Rip me off.

[Antonia]

Scott Borchetta, like false lashes. And then threw me away. And all the headshots on the wall of the dance hall are of the Bitches who wish I'd hurry up and die But I'm immortal now, baby dolls I couldn't if I try.

[Joe Rowe]

All right, so there is a lot going on.

[Antonia]

You like my singing?

[Joe Rowe]

Yes, I do like your scene. Anyway, so as you say, I took your pearls of wisdom, hung them from my neck. So this is actually a mixed metaphor.

[Antonia]

Sure.

[Joe Rowe]

Right.

[Antonia]

She's taking the pearls of wisdom, and then she's kind of flipping it, saying, oh, I hang them from my neck like a necklace or like a noose.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, and pearls of wisdom are metaphorical, right?

[Antonia]

Yes, they are pearls of wisdom.

[Joe Rowe]

They're not actually solid.

[Antonia]

You don't know. You don't know. Might be Elon Musk's next project.

[Joe Rowe]

Could be. Take a little pearl, Hung them from my neck. But, yes, you know, I. Yes, there is the. Because of hung and hanging. Yes, there is a little bit of a reference here to hanging and the noose.

[Antonia]

Yes.

[Joe Rowe]

So I paid my dues with every bruise. And we have seen pictures of Taylor bruised on the ERAS tour. I knew what to expect. Do you want to take a skate on the ice inside my van? Another mixed metaphor. Intentional mixed metaphor. Obviously, one doesn't have ice in one's veins.

[Antonia]

Wow. Really?

[Joe Rowe]

You're right. So.

[Antonia]

But another project.

[Joe Rowe]

It is a. A very brutal image to imagine skating on someone's veins.

[Antonia]

Yeah. Wow.

[Joe Rowe]

That would be. Ouch.

[Antonia]

That would be. Ouch.

[Joe Rowe]

That would be a lot.

[Antonia]

That's so true, Joe.

[Joe Rowe]

That would be a lot of.

[Antonia]

Yeah, I guess that pretty much hurt, right?

[Joe Rowe]

That would hurt. And of course, skating. Also a reference to the fact that there are a great many showgirls on skates.

[Antonia]

Right, right.

[Joe Rowe]

Ice skates.

[Antonia]

Yeah. And then the other thing that is interesting is they ripped me off like false lashes, so.

[Ad Read Voice]

Sure, of course.

[Antonia]

Rip me off like Scooter Braun and Scott Borchetta did for Taylor Swift on her albums. But false lashes is a very. It's like a cigarette imagery, because, of course, you wear out false lashes for a night to look cool, then you rip them off at the end of the night, you know, move on to the next pair of false lashes. Not all of them are reusable, so. Yeah, well.

[Joe Rowe]

And also, they're false.

[Antonia]

Yeah, they're false.

[Joe Rowe]

So this is the facade again of the showgirl. You don't know the life of the showgirl. Right. There's the false face. Right. And interestingly, also, it's not false eyelashes, it's false lashes. Right.

[Antonia]

Oh, my God. Like you lash.

[Joe Rowe]

Right.

[Antonia]

Wow.

[Joe Rowe]

Again, this is. This is violent imagery.

[Ad Read Voice]

Right.

[Joe Rowe]

This is There's a lot of violent double imagery going on here. If you think about the words literally, like.

[Antonia]

And headshots. Like shooting somebody in the head and.

[Joe Rowe]

Then threw me away. Right.

[Antonia]

Headshots on the wall and all the.

[Joe Rowe]

Headshots of the walls. Right. So again, a double meaning. Yes, we get it. My daughter. We thank you for. Yeah, let's not really do that. Of the dance hall. So all the headshots on the walls of the dance hall are of the bitches. A word she's used a lot in this album.

[Antonia]

Who'd wish I. Who wish I'd hurry up and die.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. So now we're back to, like, the.

[Antonia]

Dance hall that she's practicing in. She has them up as, you know, motivation.

[Joe Rowe]

Hurry up and die. So. So that they could presumably step in. And again, perhaps there's some reference to her in the music business, because after all, Taylor's had five album of the year awards. So if you're in the Taylor Swift era, it's a lot harder to get album of the year.

[Antonia]

Right, Right.

[Joe Rowe]

Just like if you were in the Michael Jordan era of basketball. Hard to win championships. Right. So that's. That's what happens.

[Antonia]

Yeah, But I'm immortal now. Babydolls. I couldn't if I tried.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. Now, this is one of the key lines. Well, first of all, baby.

[Antonia]

Baby dolls is a very famous kind of like a cuddly term in, like, a lot of communities. Like, I most hear it when people are gay and they're talking about, like, oh, hi, baby dolls. Like on drag shows. Like, I don't know, people say baby doll.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, no, and it's very similar to the whole song. It's like honey.

[Antonia]

Yeah, well.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. It's just like honey.

[Antonia]

Right, right.

[Joe Rowe]

All the words that on the surface mean something nice, but you can use them in a negative.

[Antonia]

Right.

[Joe Rowe]

Way.

[Antonia]

Well, and then the other thing that I'm just realizing is that the idea of doing. I mean, Sabrina Carpenter. So this is like, she's the mother of pop, speaking to her babies. Perhaps. But I'm mortal now. Baby dolls. I couldn't if I tried. So she's very dramatic.

[Joe Rowe]

And let's not forget the word doll.

[Antonia]

Yeah, Right.

[Joe Rowe]

The word doll is also a. Something that's controlled by someone else.

[Antonia]

Sure.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. Say figurine. But the key word here is I'm immortal now.

[Antonia]

Yes.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. So this is the arc of this album is we start with the fate of Ophelia, which is death.

[Antonia]

Right.

[Joe Rowe]

We have a dead Ophelia, whom Travis.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

Pulls out of the grave Right.

[Antonia]

So this is like a vampire, perhaps, but also somebody who's immortal.

[Joe Rowe]

Like a reincarnation. Yes, like even.

[Antonia]

Like being undead when you're undead.

[Joe Rowe]

But also. Right. And also the Jesus story. Right. Because. And then you go to immortality. By the way, it's the same story that happens in the Gettysburg Address. Really, as I have spoken. And maybe, maybe we'll decode the Gettysburg. My lord.

[Antonia]

Decoding the Gettysburg Address.

[Joe Rowe]

Just to be clear, four score and seven years ago, our forefathers brought forth upon this land. So that's about birth. In the end, it's a country that shall not perish. So it's immortality. So what the Gettysburg Address is. Is a brilliant extended metaphor by Lincoln in which the deaths at Gettysburg are metaphorically similar to the crucifixion. And the question that he's posing is, are these deaths going to lead to something good? Which is that this nation.

[Antonia]

Hey, man, Lincoln was a great orator.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah. No, he was a brilliant rhetorician.

[Antonia]

And yes, now you know how nerdy my dad I am. It's not just Shakespeare, it's everyone. Well, he used to just sit down with me and do this and he would hold me at gunpoint until he'd finish explaining the Gettysburg Address or something. She.

[Joe Rowe]

She was a kid.

[Antonia]

She, she, she.

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[Joe Rowe]

Didn't really need a gun. You just needed, you know, some snacks or something like that or a story that you would tell. You know, once upon a time, there was a young girl, and her name was Antonia. You know, that's.

[Antonia]

And then she said something crazy. She said, four score and seven years ago. Now, the interesting thing, a core memory of mine is explaining what the year score meant in my second grade classroom, because all of them were like, oh, like, my teacher was. We were, like, learning about, like, the Gettysburg Address. Like, somebody had quoted it in class. And I was like, do you know what four score means? And they were like, oh, like, you know, like a goal or something. And I was like, score actually is 20 years. And did you know that Fortnite is two weeks?

[Joe Rowe]

You were such a little nerd, too. I wish I could have seen you then.

[Antonia]

It was so embarrassing. I think people laughed at me when I did that. Some of them thought it interesting. I don't remember much about the reaction, but I know one of my friends came up to me and was like, that was very interesting and cool. I'm gonna say that now.

[Joe Rowe]

Knowledge is sometimes of interest to people.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

That is sort of the premise, by the way. Part of the premise of this whole podcast.

[Antonia]

Yeah. And Fortnite, I don't think had come out yet, so.

[Joe Rowe]

So.

[Antonia]

But I do remember that when it come out, I was that kid who was like, fortnite is two weeks.

[Joe Rowe]

But let's get back.

[Antonia]

Let's get back to the song.

[Joe Rowe]

Let's get back to the word immortal.

[Antonia]

Immortal.

[Joe Rowe]

Right.

[Antonia]

So.

[Joe Rowe]

Because, of course, this song is partly about Marjorie right? Now, the song Marjorie famously says, what died, didn't stay dead.

[Antonia]

Yeah. What died, didn't stay dead.

[Joe Rowe]

Repeated 12 times.

[Antonia]

Alive. You're alive. In my head.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. So the song Marjorie is Taylor's way of making her grandmother immortal.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. Because now she. Most of us didn't know. I think it's safe to say before, you know, Taylor, you know, became famous and talked about her grandmother wrote this song. I don't think most people of even my generation knew who Marjorie Finley was. Right. But in her time, she was very, very famous. And so, again, this is part of the meta nature of this song, which is Taylor becomes Immortal. Through her own immortality, she is able to help make others become immortal and including the original Kitty.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. So she is sort of retroactively, some might even say. When you sell your soul to the devil, right. That is a certain type of immortality. But normally you're damned to hell, right? Normally you've sold your soul. So at the end of your life, there comes a collection. Right. And the collection of not having a soul is that you're damned to live with all those people who have lost their souls. Right. So. But here she is making it a little transformative in that she is achieving a certain type of immortality.

[Antonia]

Sure.

[Joe Rowe]

She can't die.

[Antonia]

I mean. Yes, Right. The famous saying, you die twice, once when you physically die, and then when Europe's the last person talks about you. What was that, Mark Twain or something?

[Joe Rowe]

It could be. There's.

[Antonia]

There's Robber Frost. I don't know. It's some guy with an old name, and he's probably white. And he said it, and he was like, oh, yeah, wow, you died twice.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, there's a. I believe there's a line in Hamlet in. In. In the gravedigger scene which talks about how long someone gets.

[Antonia]

Oh, my God. The gravedigger scene. Sometimes Shakespeare just low key, puts in freaking scenes that are just two idiots talking because he feels bad that he's killed off his entire cast.

[Ad Read Voice]

So.

[Joe Rowe]

Well. And because the idiots always have something profound to say. They're never idiots. Right.

[Antonia]

I know. We have to bring back that trope.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. It's the same like in King Lear, the fool says the wisest thing.

[Antonia]

That's true.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. That's one of Takes years points. Yes. Is that. Guess what? Kings and generals are often say and do stupid things. Right. They end up dead. Right. And then it's the people who. Anyway, back to the song. So this Omar time.

[Antonia]

Now who's a nerd? Freaking nerd anyway?

[Joe Rowe]

I never. I've celebrated being a nerd.

[Antonia]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

I was a nerd before. It was cool before.

[Antonia]

Yeah, he was. He was a nerd.

[Joe Rowe]

Let's continue.

[Antonia]

So I say, and now it's very clear that they are the ones singing thank you for the lovely bouquet. And then they change the lyrics, you know, instead of like, you're not gonna know. I'm married to the Hustle. Amen, sister. So am I. And now I know the life of a showgirl babe and I'll never know another which is so true.

[Joe Rowe]

Road not taken this is the road that was taken.

[Antonia]

Yep. Pain hidden by the lipstick and lace Lipstick and Lace. Sequins are forever. Very interesting line two. Probably my third favorite. And now I know the life of a showgirl Babe. Wouldn't have it any other way. Thank you for the lovely bouquet. Wouldn't have any other way. Hello Kitty. Now I make my money being pretty and witty Anyway.

[Joe Rowe]

Okay, so this is not all throwaway stuff at all. Right. So they are now the ones thanking for the lovely bouquet.

[Antonia]

Yes, they are thanking others.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. And they do know the life of a showgirl. They're not gonna know another. This is the path taken and they're happy with it. There is pain that's hidden.

[Antonia]

So sound outside.

[Joe Rowe]

I think that's probably my instacart. Oh, Wouldn't have it any other way. This line. Sequins are forever.

[Antonia]

I know they usually say diamonds are forever, right? But in fact, sequins are more temporary. They're a facade.

[Joe Rowe]

Exactly. They're not forever at all. They're just a glitzy little pseudo flash in the pan.

[Antonia]

But what they represent can be forever.

[Joe Rowe]

Right? But also, this is the line that on the. You know.

[Antonia]

Yeah. Sequins are forever.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. That's the line in the video for the Fate of Ophelia.

[Antonia]

You can always dress yourself up as the boy. You can always do something bigger, be more. You know.

[Joe Rowe]

But there's also a harkening back to all my white diamonds and Lovers Are Forever from Elizabeth Taylor, the song. Right. Diamonds Are Forever is the famous line that was of course, a James Bond movie that the sort of. It was. It was De Beers that famously came. Invented the line diamonds are forever as part of their marketing campaign.

[Antonia]

Who? What? De Beers?

[Joe Rowe]

Yes, the. The people who have.

[Antonia]

You talking about the Bears. No, saying in a horrible Chicago accent.

[Joe Rowe]

No. De Beers. Oh, the diamond company.

[Antonia]

Oh.

[Joe Rowe]

They had the monopoly on diamonds, so they're the ones who sold diamonds, who made everyone think you needed to have an engagement ring. And the diamond. Diamonds were forever. It's all marketing. But the point is that.

[Antonia]

And of course I know that's. Well, that's what happened with, like, gem. Like your monthly gemstone. Like your.

[Narrator for Patrick Picklebottom]

What's.

[Antonia]

What's your birthstone. That's all from the gem companies. Big gem company doesn't want you to know that they're all pointless.

[Joe Rowe]

Diamonds Are Forever is a song they gave all.

[Antonia]

That's why they gave all the freaking shitty diamonds and the shitty gems to the people who were born in like the least months, you know? Or like the. The months with the least amount of people born in them.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, you know, I would also say.

[Antonia]

You have agate, you know, Sorry.

[Joe Rowe]

And Marilyn Monroe, another showgirl, famously sings a song, diamonds are a girl's best friend.

[Antonia]

Sure.

[Joe Rowe]

A song that Madonna would then go and copy. So you know this notion. And of course, Sabrina Famous album, man's best friend.

[Antonia]

Right, sure.

[Joe Rowe]

So you know this theme of diamonds and showgirls and women and forever, and of course, again, forever is immortality.

[Antonia]

Sure.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. And the song is forever. At least a good one is. And so this song has gotten very meta. And the. The one other point wanted to make right now.

[Antonia]

Yes.

[Joe Rowe]

Make your point, King, is that I made my little notes here, is that if you watched the first episode of the docu series that Taylor did of the eras show, really, it culminates in the final concert that she did in Vancouver. Right. And before every show, we learned somebody does a rousing speech. Right. She did this one for the final show. Now, she says, every single one of us has picked professions that categorically people, for the majority of the time, they tell you you shouldn't. Shouldn't do it. They tell you you should not try to do this. You have to love the thing so much that you override 85 to 90%, 95% of the advice you are given along the way by oftentimes people you respect, people you trust, people in the field. Everyone in dance, everyone in music will tell everyone younger, if there's anything else you can do, do that.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. So Taylor is explicitly rejecting the theme of this song.

[Antonia]

Sure.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. She's saying, yes, people are gonna tell you.

[Antonia]

And that's why she changed the lyrics. She doesn't want to be singing like, you're, You're. You don't want to know the life of a showgirl. You know, you're never gonna know the life of a showgirl. She's like saying, no, this is about me. And she doesn't want to leave people outside of this profession because being a showgirl is, I'm sure, very rewarding. You know, the performing arts, dance music, they're all wonderful.

[Joe Rowe]

Well, I think that part of the reason she did the docuseries, aside from making money and all the other things, is that you actually do get a little idea of what the life of a showgirl is over the course of it.

[Antonia]

Yeah. She wants to demystify it.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah. I mean, she shows you in later episodes her whole training regime, which we know is brutal. Right.

[Antonia]

Truly crazy.

[Joe Rowe]

She shows also that not every story is happy. Right. One of the dancers, turns out, gets breast cancer. And that's a very emotional story. And you get to see, you know, meet. You know, the. When they sing Florida. Yeah.

[Antonia]

You have to meet Florence in the Machine.

[Joe Rowe]

Right.

[Antonia]

Florence Welch.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. And Florence, of course, is not. I'm not a dance. I don't rehearse dance things, you know, And I don't, you know, all this stuff, you know, that you do. So the point is, there's a whole lot of different sorts of people, and they have all sorts of different careers, and they all have different talents, and they all do sorts of work. But, yes, you have to ignore the people who tell you you're never ever gonna. Which does raise the question, of course, is to whether we're sometimes, as, you know, teachers tell someone you're never gonna make anything of you specifically to motivate you. You may not realize they're doing that. You may be like, I'm gonna show that teacher.

[Antonia]

Right.

[Joe Rowe]

Lots of people say this.

[Antonia]

I assure you, I never find stuff like that motivating. I was just like, oh, okay, well, then I won't. Sorry.

[Joe Rowe]

I don't think that's true.

[Antonia]

I really.

[Joe Rowe]

I think. I don't think it's. I think that you. In my experience, when someone says, you can't do something now, this just means.

[Antonia]

Oh, well, if it's like. If it's something that is very easy to do, that they're like, you can't do this. I'm like, like. Like, if they're like. Like, oh, like, you can't. You can't use your iPad in bed. This was during COVID I want to play Minecraft. My mom was like, you can't use your iPad. I would find horrible ways to sneak it up and play on my iPad. But if somebody says, like, I don't know, like, I'm not capable of doing something, I'm like, oh, okay, maybe I'm not.

[Joe Rowe]

I don't know. I think you've tried a whole lot of different things.

[Ad Read Voice]

Yeah.

[Antonia]

And I'm usually not capable of.

[Joe Rowe]

I don't think that's true at all. Someday you will get to hear her sing in her own voice.

[Antonia]

Ew.

[Joe Rowe]

And you'll be blown away.

[Antonia]

No, I don't think so. But I'm. I'm a pretty regular gal, you know, I'm a small town, you know, blue collar worker.

[Joe Rowe]

Let's get.

[Antonia]

I don't do much singing.

[Joe Rowe]

We can't break the fourth wall here because you guys are just the other side. We know you're there, and, you know we're there, and that's. But thank you for the unforgettable Night.

[Antonia]

Oh, yes.

[Joe Rowe]

Right. So the final lines in this.

[Antonia]

Break the fourth wall.

[Joe Rowe]

They break the fourth wall. And in fact, she has said that the audience sound is specifically from the last show she did and that it always.

[Antonia]

Thank you for an unforgettable night. We'll see you next time. Give it up for the band, the dancers, and of course, Sabrina. I love you, Taylor. That's our show. We love you so much. Good night. Yeah, Right.

[Joe Rowe]

So the whole album has been a show, a performance for you, us, the audience. And if you've taken every line literally.

[Antonia]

You'Ve done it wrong.

[Joe Rowe]

Done it wrong. And, you know, this just. This is my. You talked about your. The things that really bother you. It just bothers me when people take a line from one of Taylor's songs and say, this is literally what Taylor Swift believes. I mean, it's very strange because she's written, you know, what, 400, 360 songs. Whatever it is, it's a lot of songs. There's pretty much lines that say all sorts of crazy shit. Right? So, yeah, she is cosplaying. Sometimes she cosplays a version of herself. Sometimes she plays a character. Sometimes she plays multiple characters.

[Antonia]

Sometimes she's making her herself. Just you know, sometimes she's being honest. But most of the time, I mean, just by virtue of singing in the medium of, like, song, you know, no lyrics are going to be what she's actually saying to people. So that's not how she would express her actual self.

[Joe Rowe]

Yeah. And she is also trying a lot of different songs about a lot of different people because she knows different people are going to say, that song really touched me. Right. If she only write one kind of song, you're only going to touch one kind of person. Right. And she has written amazing song from perspectives that are completely different of hers. This is me trying. Right. And so I think I love this. I do love this song. And I think it's a very good end to the album. I. Next week we. When we originally talked about the album.

[Antonia]

Maybe not next week. Maybe in a.

[Joe Rowe]

Maybe in a week or two or forthcoming, we will. We're gonna go through and rank each.

[Antonia]

Of the stars, give our rankings. Perspective. Rankings different. Yes.

[Joe Rowe]

At the same time, gonna actually do this the way I saw them do this. The New York Times do this on popcast when. When the two journalists, music journalists and critics reviewed Taylor's previous 11 albums.

[Antonia]

Yeah.

[Joe Rowe]

We'll start with number 12 and go through the list. If there's anyone out there who wants to share what your top 12 is. Hey, just. You can drop that in the Spotify comments.

[Antonia]

Drop it in the spotty.

[Joe Rowe]

We will see it. And we thank you. Thank you for an amazing year. You saw our Spotify wrapped.

[Antonia]

Thank you. Seriously, thank you for an unforgettable year. And we'll see you next year.

[Joe Rowe]

We will see you next year.

[Antonia]

Or rather, you will see us next year, right?

[Joe Rowe]

It already is next year for you.

[Antonia]

Yeah, I'm more meant that we can't physically see you just like through the screen. But you can see us.

[Joe Rowe]

No. All right.

[Antonia]

Truly sad.

[Joe Rowe]

Ciao.

[Antonia]

Bye.

[Narrator for Patrick Picklebottom]

From the parents behind Law and Order comes a mystery the whole family can enjoy. Patrick Picklebottom Everyday Mysteries. Step into the whimsical world of Patrick Picklebottom, a precocious 11 year old with a love for reading and an uncanny ability to solve mysteries. Inspired by the beloved children's book of the same name, this podcast vividly brings Patrick's tales of deduction and everyday adventures to life as he unravels baffling enigmas and solves clever cases. Patrick Picklebottom Everyday Mysteries is perfect for kids and is just as entertaining for grown ups who love a good mystery. The whole family can listen now. Wherever you get your podcasts.

[Roz Hernandez]

From the darkest corners of our imagination comes a game show that's more ridiculous than terrifying. Welcome to Tickled to Death, the horror comedy game show where nothing is sacred, everything's a little unhinged, and the only thing more cursed worse than the questions are the jokes. I'm Roz Hernandez, your fearless host, and each week I'll be leading a brave group of guests through twisted horror, trivia, improv games, and enough sarcastic banter to make you question all your life's choices. So come for the screams, stay for the snark. Listen to Tickled to Death wherever you get your podcasts and hit follow, unless you want the show to follow you. In the meantime, don't get Tickled to Death.