The REAL meaning of You Belong With Me. Why Swift plays both the good AND bad girl in the viral music video

Summary

Decoding Taylor Swift

Episode Summary: The REAL meaning of "You Belong With Me" — Why Swift Plays Both the Good AND Bad Girl in the Viral Music Video

Podcast: Decoding Taylor Swift
Hosts: Joe Romm and Toni Romm
Date: March 19, 2026

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Overview

In this episode, Joe and Toni Romm dive into Taylor Swift’s hit song “You Belong With Me,” dissecting both its chart-topping success and the iconic music video that accompanied it. They explore how Swift’s storytelling, language choices, and visual metaphors helped establish her as a master communicator and viral sensation. Central to the conversation is an analysis of how Swift casts herself as both the “good” and “bad” girl in the music video, exploring the psychological and narrative implications. The hosts also pick apart the rhetorical and memory tricks that Swift employs, showing how these tools can be used by anyone looking to become more persuasive and memorable.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Song and Its Place in Swift’s Career

• Commercial and Cultural Impact

  • "Fearless" was Swift's breakout album: 11 non-consecutive weeks at #1 on the Billboard 200; most awarded country album of its time; made Rolling Stone's top 100 country albums (00:40).
  • The “You Belong With Me” music video is massively popular, with 1.8 billion views.
  • "This is one of those songs you cannot really discuss without the music video." – Joe (02:45).

• Origin and Relatability

  • The song’s inspiration came from Swift overhearing a band member argue with a girlfriend (03:34).
  • Toni notes the authenticity of the song’s high school dynamics, drawing on personal high school memories (06:14).

2. Storytelling Tools and Rhetorical Devices

• Antithesis and Opposition

  • Swift frequently uses antithesis as a memory device: "But she wears short skirts, I wear T-shirts / She's cheer captain, and I'm on the bleachers" (05:10, 05:51).
  • Joe: "She loves antithesis. 'Darling, I’m a nightmare dressed like a daydream.'" (05:56).

• Imagery and Scene-Setting

  • Swift excels at painting vivid scenes—walking on streets, laughing on park benches, and visual cues that place the listener in the story (12:15).
  • Toni observes, “It’s a very easy way for beginner storytellers to set a story in media res.” (12:57).

• Themes of Sight and Perception

  • Vision and understanding are central: "Why can't you see? / You belong with me."
  • Toni draws parallels to Plato’s cave and the metaphor of sight for understanding: "A very potent metaphor is one of visual sight. When somebody can’t understand something, they can’t see it." (09:04).

• Imperfect Rhymes and Ambition

  • Even early in her career, Swift didn’t always craft perfect rhymes, suggesting artistic ambition and focus on storytelling over technical precision (14:44).

3. The "Friend Zone" and Adolescent Fantasy

• The song articulates the pain and longing of being stuck in the friend zone, with Swift’s narrator cast as the overlooked underdog.
• Joe: “She is in the classic friend zone... Too much familiarity is sometimes an impediment to creating the romantic moment.” (19:26).
• Toni: “She’s really just gotten... friend zoned out.” (20:08).

4. Differences Between Song and Music Video

• In the music video, the story resolves into a "happy fantasy ending," unlike the song, which leaves things unresolved.

• Joe notes: “The full psychological implications of the music video with her being both of them are non-trivial.” (32:06).

• Swift Playing Both Roles

  • A major talking point is Swift playing both the "good girl" and the “bad girl” (the cheer captain) in the video (25:01, 25:55).
  • Toni: "She didn’t get another person to play it because, you know, she’s both of them." (25:55).
  • Joe: "This schism we will also see very visually in Anti-Hero... There’s her sort of good Taylor, and then… bad Taylor." (26:03).

• Viewer’s Surprise

  • Many fans, per YouTube comments, are shocked to realize the brunette in the video is also Taylor herself (25:36).

5. Psychological Framing and the Writer Persona

• Swift frames herself as a writer and observer, positioning herself as someone who understands stories and other people (04:38).
• Joe: “She’s writing a story about writing about writing, which, of course, she has done very often.” (34:17).
• Toni and Joe discuss how both characters are writers in the music video (34:06).

6. Reflection on Swift’s Process and Genius

• Swift’s songwriting ability—her skill at “pattern-matching” the tropes of love songs—enables her to write convincingly from imagination as much as personal experience (26:56).
• Joe: "Taylor herself has said it: You have to write a hundred songs before you write your first good one." (30:10).

7. The Underdog Theme vs. Later Taylor

• Joe: "This is the underdog song. This is how she framed herself, and that was a good way to frame her." (31:09).
• Toni notes the contrast between young, underdog Taylor and today’s billionaire pop icon: "Now when she’s 30 and she’s literally a billionaire, she’s like, 'I’m not a bad bitch,' like... You kind of are, I guess." (32:31).

8. Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Antithesis:

  • Joe: "She loves antithesis. This is a memory trick. It’s a way of emphasizing one thing by comparing it to almost the exact opposite." (05:56).

• On Sight as Metaphor:

  • Toni (09:04): “A very potent metaphor is one of visual sight. When somebody can’t understand something, they can’t see it. Because when you see something — seeing is believing.”

• On Playing Both Roles:

  • Joe (25:52): "When your life is a lie because you just realized that Taylor is also the brunette. Literally, me, after 11 years."
  • Toni (25:55): "She didn’t get another person to play it because, you know, she’s both of them."

• On the Underlying Fantasy:

  • Joe (34:17): "As it turns out, in this supreme fantasy, not only does he love her, but he’s also been pining for her. It’s just like… okay, you two get a room, you know… they are writers.”

• On Swift’s Origin as a Storyteller:

  • Joe (04:38): "Taylor thinks of herself as a storyteller, and therefore a person who understands other people's stories."

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• The Song’s Role and Music Video Impact – 00:40–02:45
• Opening Lyrics and Antithesis – 03:46–06:14
• Friend Zone Dynamics – 19:26–20:08
• The Bridge: Dreaming and Pining – 20:25–23:26
• The Double Casting in Video – 25:01–26:03, 32:06–32:31
• Swift as Underdog and Writer – 31:06–34:17

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Final Thoughts & Continuity

The episode underscores Taylor Swift’s instinctual grasp of classic storytelling structures, rhetorical devices, and psychological nuance. By showing how even ostensibly simple pop songs are loaded with memorability mechanisms and narrative complexity, Joe and Toni equip listeners with the tools to become better, more persuasive communicators themselves. The conversation ends with excitement for the next episode, which will analyze “Love Story,” a track Toni describes as “one of the most meta songs [Swift] ever wrote.” (35:30)

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Next Episode Preview

The duo will explore “Love Story,” discussing how Swift rewrites Shakespearean tragedy into pop country fantasy, reinforcing her status as a modern-day Shakespeare. (36:06–36:30)

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[End of Content Summary]

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Joe Rome and I'm his daughter Toni. Welcome to Decoding Taylor Swift, where you'll learn the storytelling tools Swift uses that make her a modern day Shakespeare.

[B]

What can make you a better communicator so you can drive your mission and build your tribe?

[A]

This podcast will not only transform how you think about Swift's songs, but also give you the life changing tools to lead, connect, and change the world.

[B]

Today we will be talking about probably the first ever Taylor Swift song that I heard. You belong with me. And this is probably the one that most people thought of for a long time when they thought of Taylor Swift. It's off the Fearless album and it is certainly the most popular of that album, which was her first very successful album.

[A]

Yeah, it was a blockbuster album. It was the number one album of the year. It was, it was actually like 11 non consecutive weeks at number one on the Billboard 200 albums. It was the most awarded country album of all time at the time. At the time. And it made Rolling Stone's list of the hundred top country albums of all time. So this is a really great song. Also kind of a equally famous music video. In fact, the music video has 1.8 billion views on it. So that is a seriously watched video. And the song doesn't resolve. The music video doesn't resist. Definitely resolves with the happy fantasy ending.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So let's dive into this.

[B]

Yeah,

[A]

you want to.

[B]

I can sing, but I need the note.

[A]

How do you get the note? Uh oh, she has to go get the note. She keeps her notes on the phone.

[B]

Hold on, let me walk in. You're on the phone with your girlfriend. She's upset. She's going off about something that you said. Cuz she doesn't get your humor like I do. And I'm in the room, it's a typical Tuesday night. I'm listening to the kind of music she doesn't like. And she'll never know your story like I do.

[A]

All right, that's great. So you know, she does this, the, the opening. She.

[B]

Yeah, she's like, oh, it's the two girls. Oh man. And in the beginning of the music video, we don't see the other girl she's talking about. She's just talking in a room with like they're living for each other in like two separate houses. And she's like holding up little things like oh my gosh, like, are you okay? And he's like, oh, yeah. I just, I hate drama. And she's like, I'm so sorry. And Then she, like, has a little piece of paper. She, like, he shuts the curtain, but she holds it up and it says, I love you. Ah, it's so cute.

[A]

So, yeah, this is. This is one of those songs you cannot really discuss without the music video.

[B]

Yeah. It's also one of those songs where it's like, clearly it's a fan. You know, I mean, like, you're on the phone with your girlfriend, she's upset. She's going off about something that you said. She doesn't get your humor like I do.

[A]

Right.

[B]

She's like. She's like. They just don't get your humor.

[A]

Yeah. And to make it a music video, there has to be a lot of voyeurism. Right. I mean, it's.

[B]

Right. You have to see the characters.

[A]

You have to see the characters. And in this case, they can see each other. Right. And so that she's girl next door. She is the girl next door. She isn't the sexy, manipulative or whatever you want to call it or not

[B]

that any high schooler is sexy.

[A]

No. There you go.

[B]

We don't endorse that because we are not the current president or former president.

[A]

So, you know, she's very good at scene setting. Apparently, she did overhear one of her band members talking to his girlfriend. That was sort of how this song originated.

[B]

I think the song really shows you the actual figures of speech being used in the second verse. Just this one. The. The second part of the first verse. Because she uses antithesis. You know, I'm using. I'm listening to the music. She doesn't like. She'll never know your story like I do.

[A]

And, you know, she is a typical Tuesday night.

[B]

She's typical. She's normal.

[A]

Right.

[B]

She's a regular girl.

[A]

She's.

[B]

She's a girl's girl. The girlfriend is basic, but she's supposed to be, like, weird and quirky and friend.

[A]

She's got the funny T shirts and all that stuff. And we'll get to that. The. But Tuesday we do remember from Always and Fore. Once upon a time, I think it was a Tuesday. So, you know, that's.

[B]

Tuesdays are regular days for her.

[A]

Yeah. But they're also fantasy days for her, too.

[B]

Yeah. Tuesdays are fantasy days.

[A]

And I like, you know this line, she'll never know your story like I do. So Taylor thinks of herself as a storyteller, and therefore a person who understands other people's stories. Right. And that is how she is framing this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And because a story is an idea that there's a lot going on. I understand your story. And that will be the running theme here. All right, let's get deeper with the second verse and you get your note.

[B]

Okay? But she wears short skirts, I wear T shirts she's sheer captain and I own a bleachers Dreaming about the day when you wake up and find that what you're looking for has been here, here the whole time if you could see that I'm the one who understands you been here all along why can't you see? Here you belong with me Here you belong with me all right. Is that okay?

[A]

That's great. Okay, that's great. And so, yes, the antithesis, short skirts versus T shirts.

[B]

But, yes, she wears short skirts, I wear T shirts. She's cheer captain, and I'm on the bleachers. Right?

[A]

And so again, she loves antithesis. Darling, I'm a nightmare dressed like a daydream. This will become one of her defining memory tricks. This is a. This is a memory trick. It's a way of emphasizing one thing by comparing it to almost the exact opposite. Now, you know I can't lie.

[B]

For many, many years, I thought even in high school, I went to an all girls school. And we didn't really have cheerleading or we didn't really have, like, I guess the dance team. The dance team was. They weren't really popular. They were just. They danced, but, like, we didn't have, like, football or anything. And I learned that that is a real thing that people have at their schools that are typically more popular than the other groups. And I'm like, that seems crazy. Like, the athletic people at our school just were kind of. They kept to themselves because everybody at my school was like, artsy and gay and they were weird and regular.

[A]

You know, the. The interesting question, of course, is that this is a. A story.

[B]

They were usually gay, too.

[A]

So this is a story putting her as the girl next door, right?

[B]

And she's regular. And this is the popular cheer captain. You're right. She's like. She's. She wears short skirts, but I wear T shirts.

[A]

She's cheer captain now, as we know from 15, dating the boy on the football team is definitely something she always thought about.

[B]

And, well, now she's doing it.

[A]

And now she's doing it, so you know it. And again, this song, written when she was 17 or 18, you know, it just shows how powerful those teenage fantasies are that it stayed with her so long.

[B]

She became the. The cheerleader.

[A]

She did.

[B]

She's like a billionaire now.

[A]

No, she did. Although she still doesn't think of herself as cool.

[B]

I think most people don't think of her as cool.

[A]

No. And I'm.

[B]

She's certainly very rich in success.

[A]

Yeah. And look, that's what art allows you to do, right? That. That. That is what you accomplish through your art and your talent. So. Dreaming about the day. So a lot of this song is about dreaming about the day when you wake up, Right? So you're asleep, right?

[B]

I'm not asleep.

[A]

I'm not asleep. I'm realistic, but I'm dreaming while I'm awake.

[B]

Right, right, right.

[A]

So she's doing a lot here, even though she's still, you know, super young when she wrote this song. The lyrics here, as we'll see are this is one of those songs that seems like it's a very simple and straightforward song.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But again, she's putting in running themes, running language in a lot of songs

[B]

that seem simple on the surface, you can always pick them apart and you'll see why they. And there's always, you know, very certain patterns about why they work. Yeah, right.

[A]

So. So she's has to move into the dream world to have this guy. She wants the guy has to wake up. I have to wake up and enter the real world to be with her.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And I'm the one, you know, if you could see. So this is also about why can't you see.

[B]

Right, right. This is like in Plato's Republic when he's like, you have to be able to see the cave. You have to see the cave. You have to see all of these forms. It's a problem of sight, the faculty of sight. And the reason I bring this up isn't to be that one annoying bitch who's, like, in philosophy. But I am bringing this up because a lot of times a very. A very potent metaphor is one of visual sight. When somebody can't understand something, they can't see it. Because when you see something, you know, seeing is believing and something that. That humans will latch onto very quickly as a metaphor of sight because it's very easy to understand you. That's why a lot of, like, popular things like, ugh, like, you just can't see. You just don't you see? No, she can't.

[A]

Yeah, well, she makes this a running theme. And there is a secret message in the Fearless liner notes.

[B]

If you run it back, it says, support fossil fuels.

[A]

No, no, no, no. The liner notes say, is love is blind, so you couldn't see me right now before we get further.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

And now we're back.

[B]

What? We're back.

[A]

Terrific.

[B]

So we can get into the second verse.

[A]

Yes. Let's get into the yes.

[B]

Walking the streets with you and your worn out jeans I can't help thinking this is how it ought to Be laughing on a park bench thinking to myself, hey, isn't this. And you got a smile that can light up this whole town. I haven't seen it in a while. Since she brought you down, you say you're fine. I know you better than that. Hey, what you doing with a girl like that? All right, there we go.

[A]

Knocked it out of the park.

[B]

Yeah, the last part was a little. Okay. But you guys, don't judge me because we are a podcast. Go listen to the actual song if you want. Good stuff.

[A]

Singing.

[B]

Oh, okay. The point is, she's setting the scene. Walk in the streets with you and your worn out jeans. She has set a pattern of doing this. You know, there's something about the way the. The rain looks on the. On the. On the parking lot when it's. Yeah, I mean, it's a very easy way for beginner storytellers to set a story in media rest. You know, they're talking. And in midi, arrest means starting kind of in the action, in the middle of the action. You know, walk in the streets with you and you're worn out jeans. In. In this case, she's not really starting because this is the. Halfway through the song, but she's setting another scene. You know, I can't help thinking this. It ought to be, you know, laughing on a park bench, thinking to myself, hey, isn't this easy?

[A]

So she's repeated thinking twice here. She can't help thinking, this is how it ought to be. Landing on a park ground, thinking to myself.

[B]

So she's in her head right now.

[A]

Is in her head. She's doing a lot of thinking, doing a lot of dreaming.

[B]

Right? And I don't know why you're highlighting this, because just this, because she said, you've got a smile that can light up this whole town. I haven't seen you in a while since she brought you down. And that's a very. That's a very common thing that writers will do, is they'll use terms of phrases that bring that kind of showcase juxtaposition. So up and then down antithesis also

[A]

light up brought down, no call. I was just doing the scene. The point is, this is about being seen, about lighting things up so you can see things. And she also does the I know you better than that. Hey, what you doing with a girl like that? So she's using that. This is the sort of antana classis, the using the same word in different ways. It's also interesting, of course, that it's not a true rhyme. She just repeats the word that. And you know, she's not obsessive.

[B]

Although she's using the different meanings, right?

[A]

No, no, using the different meanings.

[B]

It's true. But she is repeating.

[A]

Right. And it's interesting, even at this early stage, she isn't doing the perfect rhymes. Walking the streets, worn out jeans. Right.

[B]

But even very, very matured artists don't do perfect rhymes.

[A]

No, no, I. I'm saying that. Yeah.

[B]

Especially when you're trying to tell a story.

[A]

No, I think. I think not doing a perfect rhyme is a sign of ambition to me. Yeah. That you're trying, you know, you're trying different things. Sure. And so. Yeah, no, I think this is another. Another great verse. And so we get the chorus again, but the chorus is a bit different at the time.

[B]

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[A]

All right, well, she's. She's. You know this song.

[B]

I do this to keep.

[A]

You are keeping me happy. Oh, that's so sweet of you.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's important to keep your father happy. It's important to keep your daughter happy.

[B]

Yeah, well, that's certainly what the Bible says.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

Even though sinners should have won best picture, but that's neither here nor there.

[A]

I like One battle after another was good.

[B]

One battle after another was. Was great, even. But I thought that Sinners was, like, amazing because, like, you know, as a music podcast, it is. Can't lie the music. Big fan of the blues and especially the Delta blues, which created kind of An. And. And Natalizing the genre. It was like the nebula. Who's part of it?

[A]

It is.

[B]

It is really, really impactful. No. Entire movement and. Yes. Well, the whole.

[A]

The whole movie is about songs, because even the. Yeah, seriously, the vampires are singers, right? They're Irish. Yeah. So,

[B]

yeah, it's a wonderful, wonderful movie and it's very cool. And it has vampires in it.

[A]

It does have.

[B]

And it has Michael B. Jordan in it. Twice.

[A]

Twice.

[B]

I don't know how you could complain about.

[A]

And he did win. He beat out Timothee Chalamet, which was a bit of a surprise.

[B]

Was it?

[A]

Well, no.

[B]

He played two roles that were both main characters.

[A]

Well, apparently, if you read Timothy tried too hard to get the. He really actively campaigned to get the Academy Award.

[B]

He'll get it eventually.

[A]

He will. He's been. He's been. Look, he did, you know, Bob Dylan. He's been crushing it.

[B]

Let's not, you know, he's a good actor. He just has questionable opinions about art and stuff.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

Yeah. So basically, she's high heels. You know, I mean, this girl's high heels. She's sneakers. You know, like us, like.

[A]

Well, right. High heels implies also she's looking down. Right. She's.

[B]

Whoa. That's true. Sneakers is. She's grounded. Right, right, right. And standing by and waiting at your back door all this time. How could you not know? You know, there is one way to interpret this line, and that is, you know, his butt. But, like, no.

[A]

Oh, wow. You're the one going there.

[B]

Well, I don't know. Why were you.

[A]

I didn't do it. You. You said, okay. Waiting at your back door.

[B]

I was just thinking with Sabrina Carpenter, she's like, never entered through the back door, which is so true, girl. And it's like.

[A]

Well, I think. I think also being at the back door of someone's house is a familiarity. Right. You know, if you have to know someone. Well, Right. She's a neighbor.

[B]

She's, like, waiting there. But it's also kind of like, oh, I'm on the back burner.

[A]

Well, yeah. And I think that's. She is in the classic friend zone. Right. Or in this case, oh, you're just part of the family.

[B]

Yeah, Right.

[A]

You're just part of the family. Of course. Yeah. You just show up and you're just always around. You know, too much familiarity is sometimes an impediment to creating the romantic moment.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

And. But yeah, this is friend zone. And, you know, this is where the difference between the song and the music Video really start to diverge.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

Because as. As we'll see, the song is still. It's just in her head.

[B]

It's just in her head.

[A]

It's just in her head. She's really just gotten right.

[B]

She's crazy.

[A]

Totally friend zoned out. And Right.

[B]

And then the next.

[A]

The guy doesn't notice her at all.

[B]

But.

[A]

But.

[B]

And another. Hold on, because I think the next verse is important.

[A]

It is very important. Incredibly important.

[B]

Okay. Are you driving to my house in the middle of the night? I'm the one who makes you laugh when you know you're about to cry and I know your favorite song and you tell me about your dreams Think I know where you belong Think I know it's with me.

[A]

So. Yes. Well, this is the bridge.

[B]

Yeah, that's the bridge.

[A]

This is the bridge. And as very good at bridges. She is even at a young age, really good at bridges. This is very interesting. I remember you driving to my house in the middle of the night. Now, of course, this part is completely at odds with the music video.

[B]

Right.

[A]

As you really wouldn't drive to your next door neighbor's house.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You would just like do, do, do cross the street. Yeah. It'd be kind of weird.

[B]

Needless.

[A]

But. But yeah, I mean, this. We have more antithesis. One who makes you laugh when you know you're about to cry. But you know, know your favorite songs

[B]

and you tell them about your dreams. You. I think I know where you belong. I know it's with me.

[A]

I know. Frowny face. I mean. Yeah, this is.

[B]

It all seems to end up well for her.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, in the music video, it ends up well in the song. This is just the classic friend zone. You're the person that they come running to to. To cry about the person that they're actually dating. Dating. Yeah. And that's just not. It's not really a good place to be.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because you are going to get very frustrated. We've all been there. It's just. It's.

[B]

We have all been there.

[A]

Yeah. And this line. And you tell me about your dreams. So again, now this goes back to. She's the dreamer.

[B]

Right. But it's also like, you know, this dude doesn't really, like, care about her. She's not saying, like, I tell you about my dreams. You know my favorite song. Like, she's always like, oh, she doesn't get your humor. Like, I get your humor. I know about your dreams. I know your favorite songs. It's a little creepy if you think about it. But she is, like, really pining.

[A]

She's pining.

[B]

She doesn't seem to be doing the pining because say with me, folks, men ain't shit.

[A]

He's got his Justin Bieber haircut in the music video. And now, again, this focus on thinking. Think I know where you belong. Now this is the great line. Think I know it's with me. Okay, so you can't think and know, Right? I mean, it's just. It's a very ironic phrasing, right? I mean, if you know it, then you don't have to think it. So she doesn't really know it. She just thinks she knows it. I mean, it's. It's a very amusing. And it's just meant to show an unsettled. I think it's a very, very good way of using very simple words to show something that's a little more complex.

[B]

Yeah. And it's just. Can't you see I'm the one? I mean, that's probably not the note, but it just. It's the same chorus, but it's just. It's like, quieter. Can't you see that I'm the one who understands? You've been here all along why can't you see? Here you belong with me? Standing by waiting at your back door all the time Look, I do not know. Baby, you belong with me, you belong with me, you belong with me. Have you ever thought just maybe if you belong with me? If you belong with me. That's like the song.

[A]

Wow. This is the episode where my daughter knocks it out of the park.

[B]

It was, like, bad at the first.

[A]

So the music video, of course, doesn't end with nothing happening, right? Quite the reverse. She. He wants. He's going to the dance, and she

[B]

takes off her glasses and she's beautiful.

[A]

I know. I know this. Such the classic trope. But it's also. It's also the. The. She's the same person. I mean, it's like, you know, it's like. Like, it's like Superman.

[B]

She's. Wow.

[A]

It's like Clark Kent. I'm Clark Kent, and now I'm Superman, and now I'm back to being Clark Kent again. And so, yeah, it's just crazy.

[B]

And also, in the music video, it's important to note at this point that she is the other girl.

[A]

She is the other girl. I was.

[B]

She's in a brunette wig with straight hair and, like, I just completely like.

[A]

And a lot of people. No, no, no. This is the.

[B]

I watched this video. I immediately recognized her. I'M like. I'm like, how do you not. I'm like, it's.

[A]

It's so funny. I. If you read the comments on the video because. And because it's been seen at 1.8 billion times, there are a lot of comments. Right, so. So one of the most popular ones was when your life is a lie because you just realized that Taylor is also the brunette. Literally, me, after 11 years.

[B]

No, because it's. Well, and it means something too.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But she didn't get another person to play it because, you know, she's both of them. She's a pop. Pop fairy, famous pop singer. And she's also.

[A]

Yes, this, this schism which we will also see very visually in Anti Hero. Right. In fact, there's three of them in Any hero. Right. There's her sort of good Taylor and then there's sort of bad Taylor and then there's sort of. Yeah, Big Taylor, who's the monster who goes from town to town to concert to concert, you know, and, and is just larger than life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. And now she wasn't larger than life, you know, at this point in time, but she did see herself as both back then. And of course, she lived in her imagination as much as anyone on the planet. I mean, obviously she has an amazing imagination.

[B]

Writes about, you know, things that happen in her imagination. Well, no, I mean, think about how she's inspired to write these songs. Because if it's just a dude on a phone getting upset with his girlfriend.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she's inspired to write one of her most popular songs. Like imagine being able to just like imagine that the things that she must have just. She just heard this on the phone. Then she was like, well, let me write this song, you know, And. And she didn't even need like a boyfriend. You don't need like love to like write love songs. You don't need that. Like you can just kind of like. I mean, essentially her pattern matching skills are just phenomenal. You know, like she. We've all heard like love songs. She's just very good at writing them because she knows what they sound like. And she knows like, like, I think it's very conceivable to see as a writer, you know, like how she heard somebody on the phone talking and then she was like, oh, yeah, you're on the phone with your girlfriend. She's upset, she's going off about something that you said and you can hear in the very first verse, when usually it's very easy to kind of tell what the. Why the first Verse is the first verse because it's, it's the. It's the point where the writer starts writing. You know, the. The very beginning of a song, the very beginning of a story. It's, you know, usually the writer finds their footing kind of not at the beginning, but halfway through and, you know, or right after the very beginning. And you can see kind of the moment that she gets where the song is. I'm in the room. It's a typical Tuesday night. I'm listening to the kind of music she doesn't like. She'll never know your story like I do. Right? And she is like, immediately she knew that this song was about this other girl who's listening in, and she knew that her dynamic as the other person listening on the phone is like, what if I'm the girl that's in love with him? And her imagination just works so fast that she was able to do it.

[A]

Now let's though remember as we. We know from the Life of a Showgirl album and the song about the boy that she was in the friend zone with that very, very poignant story. So she definitely knew what it was like to be into a boy. Boy wasn't into her. They were really, really close. Right. She did share all her songs with him. Right. So I don't know that this is.

[B]

It's not unbelievable. Right? But she's, you know.

[A]

No, I'm that.

[B]

Right. Teenage song to write, right?

[A]

It is. And. And this is a. 17. 18. Yeah. I mean, this, this album is, is. These songs are all written when she was 17 or 18.

[B]

I have to get on that and lock it.

[A]

Well, you know, look, I don't write

[B]

songs, but I have to. I have to figure out how to. How to. How to figure that out. Just kidding.

[A]

You are a very good storyteller.

[B]

You'll get like a. Maybe I'll. I'll see if Netflix wants a screenplayer, so.

[A]

Well, you never know.

[B]

I'll write a screenplay about. I'm on the podcast with my dad and he's not upset and he's listening to some random words that I just said. And now he is incredulous at my random bit. Now I'm still doing this, like, bit, and I don't know where it is going.

[A]

Okay, well, that's. That's.

[B]

Wow. Do you see how I just did that?

[A]

I did.

[B]

You could do it too, at home.

[A]

You can. Well, the. The Taylor herself has said it. You have to write a hundred songs before you write your first good one.

[B]

In my case, I can just write Goods as you can. Really.

[A]

That was just so far out of the park. It was just.

[B]

It's gonna go to. It's already gone triple platinum, but it is. You can't hear, but it has in the recording academies.

[A]

So, yeah, I think, look, she had help with this song, but you know,

[B]

I didn't, by the way, for myself.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

So it just goes to show how.

[A]

Well, sometime we'll put you in a room with Taylor.

[B]

I had inspiration for the podcast. Right. You can see.

[A]

Well, at some point, Taylor and Tony is here to write. We're not going to re. Record songs that put your lyrics on Taylor's music, but we probably will come up with our own music if we were going to do that. But this is not antihero, right?

[B]

Is. She's not the antihero. She's the underdog, which is another thing, right?

[A]

She is. This is the underdog song. This is how she framed herself. And that was a good way to frame her. This is how she thought of herself. I mean, you know, I don't think this is disingenuous.

[B]

No, she's a very genuine person.

[A]

And there's a whole video, by the way, you can find on YouTube where she does the director's cut version. And it's quite hilarious to hear her saying, oh, well, he likes that girl because she's got shiny, you know, smooth hair.

[B]

Right. You know, girls with smooth hair, you know, that's what men want, right? I'm blonde, but I'm pretty when I take my glasses off.

[A]

And also,

[B]

she's also Taylor Swift.

[A]

And you're.

[B]

He'll turn around and realize that we're both really Taylor Swift. So it doesn't matter.

[A]

Well, there you go. And I do have to say that the full psychological implications of the music video with her being both of them are non trivial.

[B]

Right?

[A]

It is non. It is. It is really quite.

[B]

It is significant.

[A]

It is very significant.

[B]

It is just both.

[A]

She is both of them. She is the, you know, you know, the bad bitch. Which she did. Which she says she isn't. But in the mu.

[B]

In the music video, not a bad bitch, but she.

[A]

In the music video, she is both. She is both.

[B]

I, I think eldest daughter did not ring as true as this song because at this point in her career, you know, it is conceivable to say, here's this little 17, 18 year old and she's writing these songs. Oh, about a boy she likes. Oh, how cute. And now when she's 30 and she's literally a billionaire, she's like I'm not a bad bitch. Like. Yeah. I mean, like. But you kind of are, I guess. But there's nothing wrong with that. Like.

[A]

Well, right. That's the point. There's nothing wrong with it. And. And. And by the way, I think there were people, when the video came out, it was like, well, why are you making this girl the villain? Well, but guess what? Stories have villains. And there's nothing wrong with. And by the way, because it's her, she can get away with it. Right. If it were actually a different person, it'd be a more legitimate criticism, but it's just her. And writers often suffer from viewing themselves as outsiders who are observing the situations.

[B]

Rather than Nick Hairaway from the Great Gatsby.

[A]

Yes. Rather than being Taylor Swift. Right.

[B]

Like. Like the dude from Dear Evan Hansen. He's on the outside, always looking in.

[A]

Yeah. Or Truman Capote. If you've watched the Truman Capote movie, there's always that.

[B]

That's what it requires to be a writer, is to be an observer. You know, you have to be able to be observant. Yeah. And be able to put observances into words.

[A]

And now we tie back to the end of the music video. They're both writers, the boy and the girl in the song.

[B]

Right. Because at the very end, you know, it turns out that he's written a little thing that says, I love you, and it's in a different color.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it's more crumpled up.

[A]

It is more he.

[B]

She takes out hiding it for longer.

[A]

Right. So as it turns out, in this supreme fantasy, not only does he love her, but he's also been pining for her. It's just like. Yeah. It's like, okay, you two get a room, you know, but get the same room across from each other. But, yes, they are writers. She's writing a story about writing about writing, and. Which, of course, she has done very often. She often does that.

[B]

It's about writing, you know, Mastermind.

[A]

Right. And our song.

[B]

Our song is Flaming Screen Door, Sneaking out, like tapping on your window when you're on the phone and you talk real slow. Cause light and your mama don't know. Yeah. But she's like. And I went to the back, and I picked up a pen, and I wrote down our song.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And she was doing the fake country act accent.

[A]

She.

[B]

Well, I. A lot of country accents are put on.

[A]

Yeah. And, you know, if you live in Nashville for a while, you're gonna. But. But we're. There's one more song. The next song. We're gonna do is one of the most meta songs she ever wrote.

[B]

Enchant?

[A]

No. Love Story. Right. So she is going to take the, maybe the most famous love story of all time, certainly one of them. And she's going to rewrite the ending. Right. So she's a modern day Shakespeare and she will do it again in the Fate of Ophelia where she will give herself a happier ending than Ophelia ends up with. So, you know, this is a song about a writer, by a writer and let's wrap it up.

[B]

Well, thank you guys for listening. We'll be doing a love story next time. It'll be good.

[A]

Yeah. Love Story is also an interesting twist as a country's version of a song.

[B]

Kind of fascinating, you know, because it's like, oh my gosh. Wow. She's doing Shakespeare. She's like, oh my God.

[A]

See you next time.

[B]

See ya. Howdy bye.

[A]

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[B]

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