Swift's storytelling trick in You Need To Calm Down and how to master it

Summary

Decoding Taylor Swift

Episode: The storytelling secret in Swift’s “You Need To Calm Down” you must master

Hosts: Joe Romm and Toni Romm
Date: February 18, 2026

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Main Theme:

Unlocking Anaphora – The Secret to Memorable Communication in “You Need To Calm Down”

This episode breaks down the powerful storytelling tool of anaphora—the repetition of words at the beginning of successive clauses or sentences. Joe and Toni Romm use Taylor Swift’s "You Need To Calm Down" as a masterclass example, explaining how this figure of speech helps people remember, connect to, and repeat what you've said. The hosts show how these classical rhetorical devices (famously used by Shakespeare, Churchill, MLK, and pop hits) can help anyone (not just Taylor) become more persuasive and memorable.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Anaphora—and Why It Matters

• Definition & Context:
  • Anaphora is the repetition of a word or phrase at the start of successive sentences for emphasis and memory.
  • It’s an ancient bardic memory trick, used heavily by Shakespeare, the authors of the King James Bible, and in famous speeches and songs.
  • Memorable passages are often built on such repetition, aiding both the speaker and the audience in recalling the message.

  “One of the most important memory tricks devices so you remember what you're gonna say and people remember what they're gonna hear.” — Joe (00:53)

• Historical Examples:
  • Churchill’s “We shall fight…” speech
  • MLK’s “I have a dream”
  • Dickens’ “It was the best of times…it was the worst of times…”
  • Popular songs (Rick Astley’s “Never Gonna Give You Up”) (04:33)

2. Anaphora in Taylor Swift’s Songwriting

• “You Need To Calm Down” is a standout showcase of anaphora.

• Repetition of “You need to…” and “Say it in…” creates rhythm, turns of phrase, and anchors the song’s message.

  “She’s going to use it with the: ‘You need to calm down. You need to stop.’” — Joe (06:00)

• Other Swift examples:

  • Red: “Loving him was red…Missing him was dark gray all alone. Forgetting him was like trying to love somebody you’ve never met…” (24:40)
  • Cruel Summer: “It’s blue, the feeling I got…It’s new, the shape of your body, it’s blue…”

• Joe’s Insight:

  “If your entire song is built around ‘you,’ then that is anaphora. And this song is a very clever twist on ‘Shake It Off.’” — Joe (25:13)

3. Song Breakdown: "You Need To Calm Down"

First Verse

• Toni reads and analyzes:
  • “You are somebody that I don’t know, but you’re taking shots at me like it’s Patron…” (08:37)
  • Discussion of mini-anaphora (“You are somebody…”) and antithesis (“Say it in the street, that’s a knockout. But you say it in a tweet, that’s a cop out.”)
  • Lyrics examined for wordplay (Patron/pattern), subtle references (7am/seventh studio album).

  “She doesn’t do things arbitrarily, doesn’t do things by accident. If there’s a…whatever she chooses, there’s a reason she chose it.” — Joe (12:06)

The “But” and “And” Ratio—A Songwriting Trick

• Not just anaphora, but mixing conjunctions for narrative tension:

  “Another actionable strategy that Taylor uses is to use a lot of ‘buts’—because ‘buts’ are the things that introduce tension.” — Joe (09:37)

• Swift’s ratio is roughly 30% (buts to ands)—similar to the Beatles’ best songs.

Commentary on Online Hatred (12:58 – 16:42)

• The “street” vs. “tweet”—confronting haters online versus real life.

  “It’s so much easier to cancel people and hate on people from the other side of a screen…” — Toni (12:58)

• Swift’s empathetic rejoinder (“Are you okay?”) discussed as disarming, memorable, and actionable for listeners.

  “One of the best responses to someone dissing you is not to engage with them, but just say, ‘Are you okay?’” — Joe (15:11) “Whenever a man is being terrible to you, ask him if he’s okay…it’s just, like, a strategy that always works.” — Toni (15:46)

Pre-Chorus & Allusion

• “Snakes and stones never broke my bones”—twisting the “sticks and stones” proverb, signaling resilience while referencing the “snake” diss from Kim Kardashian. (17:46–20:04)

  “Another figure of speech…called an allusion; she’s making an allusion to a very famous saying, but she’s tweaking it…” — Joe (18:03) “That’s part of her ‘Taylorism’—she takes common turns of phrases and she twists them a little bit.” — Toni (18:20)

Chorus Analysis (22:08–25:09)

• Heavy anaphora: “You need to calm down. You need to just stop. Can you just not step on my gown?”

  “A lot of songs use this format…but the important thing is…that’s anaphora.” — Toni (24:32)

• Comparison to “Shake It Off”—the earlier “I, I, I” anaphora now flips to “You, you, you.”

Second Verse and LGBTQ Themes (30:49–34:51)

• Explicit support for the LGBTQ community, including the double entendre of “GLAAD” (the activist org and an emotion), her donation, and the song/video’s symbolism.
• Light vs dark imagery: “Sunshine on the street at the parade, but you would rather be in the dark ages…”

  “She and her friends represent lightness, and the other side represents the dark ages.” — Joe (33:47)

• “Shade never made anybody less gay”—brilliant metaphor and rhyme.

  “Shade is the darkness…you throw shade, you’re literally putting someone in a shadow…And these other people would like the gays back in the closet.” — Joe (34:34)

Bridge: From “You vs. Me” to “You vs. We” (36:33–37:07)

• “We see you over there on the internet…But we figured you out, we all know now, we all got crowns. You need to calm down.”
• The communal “we” approach, instead of an individual “I.”
• References to comparisons among female artists and the music video’s reconciliation of Taylor and Katy Perry, shifting away from rivalry.

Feminist and Cultural Critique (27:31–30:43)

• Perceptions of pop—undervaluing music dominated by female fandom.

  “Whenever the dominant group that enjoys something is a group of girls, people always presume the music is somehow, like, less intelligent or worse.” — Toni (27:44)

• Criticism of the idea that taste justifies dismissing Swift’s music and a plea to separate personal taste from deeper cultural biases.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On Anaphora:

  “If you use these tricks, you will have quotable quotes…these are the things that people will pick up…” — Joe (03:07)

• On Online Hatred:

  “It’s so easy to hate when you’re not hating to somebody [in person]…nobody would actually go up to Taylor Swift and say, ‘You’re a terrible person and your music sucks.’” — Toni (13:26)

• On Swift’s Lyric Craft:

  “She doesn’t do things arbitrarily, doesn’t do things by accident. If there’s a…whatever she chooses, there’s a reason she chose it.“ — Joe (12:06)

• On Female Artists Being Compared:

  “Don’t compare women to each other who are talented...They’re both beautiful, powerful, talented women. Apples and oranges, guys.” — Toni (38:42)

• On Being Memorable:

  “The most important thing is to be memorable. Because if people don’t remember what you say, it doesn’t matter what you say.” — Joe (18:28)

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Notable Segment Timestamps

| Segment | Topic | Timestamp | |---------|-------|-----------| | Intro of Anaphora | The episode’s rhetoric focus | 00:36 - 04:05 | | Pop culture examples | Churchill, MLK, Dickens, Astley | 04:05 - 05:57 | | First Verse Breakdown | Swift’s lyric analysis | 08:29 - 13:23 | | Empathy & “Are you okay?” | Handling haters & empathy | 15:01 - 16:42 | | Pre-chorus/Allusion | "Snakes and stones" line | 17:46 - 20:04 | | Chorus & Pop Structure | Songwriting technique | 22:10 - 25:36 | | Taylor vs. Other Pop Stars | Feminism in pop music | 27:31 - 30:43 | | Second Verse & LGBTQ | GLAAD, parade, light/dark metaphor | 30:49 - 34:51 | | Bridge | "We all got crowns"—unity over rivalry | 36:33 - 37:42 | | Video: Katy Perry cameo | Symbolizing reconciliation | 38:03 - 39:25 |

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Style & Tone

The Romms keep the mood energized, playful, and analytical—Toni’s Gen Z humor (and jabs at Joe’s boomer moments) contrast with Joe’s scholarship and classic references. Personal anecdotes, banter, and real-world applications make the episode feel accessible and inviting.

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For Practice: Actionable Takeaways

• Use Anaphora: Start sentences, posts, or speeches with repeated phrases for memorability.
• Balance “Ands” and “Buts”: Insert conjunctions that create narrative tension.
• Twist Common Sayings: Reframe familiar expressions with your message for greater impact.
• Respond with Empathy: Disarm negativity with surprising, empathetic questions like “Are you okay?”
• Embrace Multi-layered Storytelling: Let your content work for both casual listeners and the deep divers.

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Next Up

• “Lover” from Lover (next episode)
• “The Archer” (to close out the Lover section of the Eras Tour analysis)

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For creators, leaders, and fans alike, this episode isn’t just about Taylor Swift. It’s a toolkit for how you can make your own words—spoken or written—stick in hearts and minds, just like the world’s most famous pop star.

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Transcript

[Toni Rome]

Hi, I'm Joe Rome and I'm his daughter Toni.

[Joe Rome]

Welcome to Decoding Taylor Swift, where you'll learn the storytelling tools Swift uses that make her a modern day Shakespeare, but

[Toni Rome]

can make you a better communicator so you can drive your mission and build your tribe.

[Joe Rome]

This podcast will not only transform how you think about Swift's songs, but also give you the life changing tools to lead, connect, and change the world.

[Toni Rome]

Today, we will be talking about Anaphora and you'd need to calm down one of Taylor Swift's songs. That is the. On these. Third or fourth? Fourth on the set list.

[Joe Rome]

Fourth on the set list.

[Toni Rome]

And the song Very, very Close to My Heart. Very fun. And it is a track from Lover. And the thing obviously we're talking about is Anaphora, which is a very interesting literary technique that my father will expand on. Very critical in making people more memorable.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah. This is a figure of repetition and we try to give you actionable advice. This is one of the most important memory tricks devices so you remember what you're gonna say and people remember what they're gonna hear. But first, today we made the top 50.

[Toni Rome]

That's crazy.

[Joe Rome]

The Spotify music podcasts.

[Toni Rome]

And we're just random people.

[Joe Rome]

We're like random people, you guys, we are random people. And this is the top. This means we are the top Taylor Swift podcast because there aren't any other Taylor Swift podcasts on this list. But anyway, thank you so much.

[Toni Rome]

Thank you.

[Joe Rome]

If you like this, please share this with your friends because we are here to reveal some things that Taylor is doing that not everyone realizes. But also, I'm sure Taylor herself would want you to learn some of the secrets that she has learned from for being memorable and persuasive and so. Anaphora. Anaphora.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah, my dad thought it was Anaphora, which was kind of embarrassing because I'm like a 19 year old girl and he's like, done this his whole life. But I was like, no, it's Anaphora because it's Greek and Greeks stress the second syllable like Penelope. And I was like, yeah, like, suck on that, father. And he did. So.

[Joe Rome]

My daughter is such a smarty pants.

[Toni Rome]

Okay.

[Joe Rome]

But I'm so proud of her because she mentioned 19 and this.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

She.

[Joe Rome]

She had her birthday last week.

[Toni Rome]

I did. I didn't forget my age again. Like usually the week after I turn like an age. Ever since, like 16, I'm just like, yeah, I'm like 16. I mean, I guess 17 or whatever. I don't know if that's what it's like to get older. Yeah, any.

[Joe Rome]

Anyway, Anaphora.

[Toni Rome]

Oh, anyway, we're not gonna comment on getting older. Whatever.

[Joe Rome]

Well, no, we did last time, but yes, you're 19. You, you, you had mentioned last time. You Dad, I am 65.

[Toni Rome]

He is 35. Can you guys even believe that? How great he looks.

[Joe Rome]

My daughter's already lost her hearing, so.

[Toni Rome]

Oh my God. Yes, yes, Anaphora.

[Joe Rome]

So Anaphora is one of the memory tricks of the great bards that they used to remember their long heroic epic poems. And this one is repetition of words at the beginning. And I will just. During the Elizabethan time, when the figures of speech and rhetoric were raised to a high art by Shakespeare and the authors of the King James Bible, there were a thousand books written on the subject of rhetoric. The reason why the most quotable quotes are found in the works of Shakespeare and the King James Bible, quotes that we use today, like, you know, blessed are the peacemakers. All that opening of the Sermon on the Mount is because they were written using these memory tricks. And, and if you use them, you will have quotable quotes. So the point of these tricks is you can put them in a, in a tweet, you can put them in a Instagram, you can put them in a blog post, whatever you want. These are the things that people will pick up and Anne. Aura. According to the best selling.

[Toni Rome]

Excuse me.

[Joe Rome]

Yes.

[Toni Rome]

Anafra.

[Joe Rome]

Anaphora. Anaphora. According to the best selling Elizabethan author John Hoskins. This figure beats upon one thing to cause the quicker feeling in the audience. A classic being Churchill's famous 1940 speech. We will fight in France. We shall fight on the seas and the oceans. We shall fight in the air, we shall fight in the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Wow.

[Joe Rome]

This is one of the rousing speeches.

[Toni Rome]

I have an example of similar cultural importance. Please. In 1987, a song was released by Rick Astley called never gonna give you up. He repeats Never, never gonna give you up. Never gonna let you down. Never gonna turn around and desert you. Never gonna make you cry, Never gonna say goodbye. Never gonna tell a lie and hurt you. And I think that's important because it's, it is a song that uses a lot of an afaranda. Most famous parts are its anaphorical parts, you know.

[Joe Rome]

Well, and when we did the very first episode and we talked about getaway car, it was the best of times, it was the worst of crimes is what she said. But one of the most famous instances of Anra Is the opening to Tale of Two Cities.

[Toni Rome]

By was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was

[Joe Rome]

the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epic of belief, it was the epic of incredulity. And here's one more anaphora. Unless you have one more.

[Toni Rome]

I mean, Martin Luther King's I have a dream is the famous one.

[Joe Rome]

You know, I was just about to do that. But yes, I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed. And I have a dream that little children will one day live in a nation where they'll not be judged by the color of their skin, but the

[Toni Rome]

content by the content of their character. Wow. What a beautiful sentiment.

[Joe Rome]

So this is rousing, right? It is used for rousing, and Taylor is going to use it with the. You need to calm down. You need to stop.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah, yeah. You need to just stop. You need to calm down. It's true.

[Joe Rome]

So. And before we dive in to the anaphora of you need to calm down and. And I'm going to save for the end. The song that she is kind of flipping on its head, which also uses an afra. We have a treat for you. Where is the testimonial ad for our sponsor, which who is Liquid iv. And I'm going to play this right now.

[Toni Rome]

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[Joe Rome]

Anyway, the point is, let's dive in to this song. You want to read the first verse, which also starts off.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah, I'll read the first verse. Yeah. You are somebody that I don't know, but you're taking shots at me like it's patron. And I'm just like, damn, it's 7:00am Say it in the street. That's a knockout. But you say it in a tweet. That's a cop out. And I'm just like, hey, are you okay? Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rome]

Killer first verse. It has the mini anaphora. You are somebody, but you're taking shots. But. And then a little another mini one. Say it in the streets.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

Say it in a tweet.

[Toni Rome]

Say it in a tweet. That's definitely. That's a more concrete. Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Rome]

So the song. You are somebody that I don't know. But. And by the way, you know but to.

[Toni Rome]

And what's the butt to and ratio.

[Joe Rome]

Father, I'm. You caught me on this one. I have not really.

[Toni Rome]

There are.

[Joe Rome]

There are two in the opening.

[Toni Rome]

Hold on. I'm counting verse. Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.

[Joe Rome]

As we discussed in the fifth episode, I believe the episode on But Daddy, I love him. Another actionable strategy that Taylor always uses, which is use a lot of buts. Because buts are the things that introduce tension.

[Toni Rome]

There seem to be six. Six buts.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah.

[Toni Rome]

How many ands?

[Joe Rome]

So you are somebody that I don't know, but you're taking shots at me like it's patron. Now that's a pun.

[Toni Rome]

12. 12 ands to six butts. So that's right.

[Joe Rome]

So it's a 50 ratio. Taylor has a ratio around 30.

[Toni Rome]

And that's the one that all the Famous Beatles songs have all the good songs.

[Joe Rome]

The Beatles have about a ratio of 30%. The. The. In this theory of how you tell a memorable story with a lot of twists and turns, a lot of narrative tension, you want to have a ratio of buts to ands of over 20%.

[Toni Rome]

Over 20%. Typically over 30, if you can.

[Joe Rome]

Well, if you can. And certainly some of Taylor's best songs certainly do all too well. Yeah, all too well. And Badetti, I love him so. Great pun here. You're taking shots at me like it's Patron.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah, Patron. And the Patron, they take a lot of shots and like.

[Joe Rome]

Right. So drinking wise, she's switching from. You're taking shots at me like you're like, dissing me.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

Dissing me or shooting me. Right. And then. And by the way, patron, I see is also the word means pattern. Yeah, it means pattern.

[Toni Rome]

Right, yeah.

[Joe Rome]

And so she's talking about a pattern of people dissing her and then patron. And I'm just like, damn, it's 7:00am and of course not. I think, coincidentally, this is her seventh studio album. So that's where the 7am is. She's always doing this. She's not picking. Again, as we've said many times, one of her best songwriting skills is she doesn't do things arbitrarily, doesn't do things by accident. If there's a. Whatever she chooses.

[Toni Rome]

Right.

[Joe Rome]

There's a reason she chose it. It may seem incidental.

[Toni Rome]

Exactly.

[Joe Rome]

Now, another. The next line is a really. One of my favorite lines, really. Say it in the street. That's a knockout. But you say it in the tweet, that's a cop out. So that's got the anaphora, but it's also got antithesis.

[Toni Rome]

Right. Because she's putting two together, two that are completely opposite.

[Joe Rome]

One thing is a knockout versus a cop out.

[Toni Rome]

And a tweet. And in the street, you know.

[Joe Rome]

Right, exactly. Just as she does in the song. That's full of. Of antithesis, which is blank space. You know, darling, I'm a nightmare dressed like a daydream. Right. So that's your classic antithesis. And she. She is this song.

[Toni Rome]

I think what's important about this, though, is that. Is that the meaning that it conveys is just. It's very easy to understand because I think the problem, I mean, like, you know, not to get to Antonia's leftist rants already, but, you know, it is true that it's so much easier to cancel people and hate on people from the other side of a screen where you don't have to go face to face with them and say it to their face.

[Joe Rome]

And you might be anonymous. You might not even reveal your actual identity.

[Toni Rome]

I'm like, so many people at my school are like, oh, God, I don't like Taylor Swift. If Taylor Swift came to this school and she was gonna give a talk like you. You have to understand that every single person at our school would come and see the talk. They'd be like, oh, my God, Taylor Swift is speaking. Like, it's so easy to, like, hate when. It's easy to hate when you're not hating to somebody. Nobody in my school, except for maybe, like, a handful of people, would actually go up to Taylor Swift and say, you're a terrible person and your music sucks. They would say, oh, you know, your music's not for me, but I really respect what you're doing. Or, like, seriously, I mean, it's absolutely ridiculous.

[Joe Rome]

I got tongue tied when I. I met Luke Skywalker.

[Toni Rome]

Well, that's crazy. Meeting Luke Skywalker. Well, didn't you meet Sigourney Weaver? That's crazy.

[Joe Rome]

Now, I was older then. I was much older when I. When I. When I met Sigourney Weaver. That was part of work that I was doing with the director, James Cameron.

[Toni Rome]

Well, you were friends with James Cameron, which is extra crazy.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah.

[Toni Rome]

I mean, yeah. It's not like you're still pals, you

[Joe Rome]

know, but one of the things I like about this line is that in Eldest Daughter, yeah, we were critical of how she talked about the Internet because it was very literal and kind of awkward. But this is a great. This is one of her best lines about the Internet. Right. And in fact, she. This is just a much better line

[Toni Rome]

because it utilizes way more like, figures of speech. It talks about it in a more honest way.

[Joe Rome]

I also like what she says, and this is another actionable thing. And she says. And I'm just like, hey, are you okay?

[Toni Rome]

She's literally just like, hey, are you okay?

[Joe Rome]

Now, this is her empathy. But I think you may remember came across this article a couple years ago which said one of the best responses to someone dissing you is not to engage with them, but just say, are you okay?

[Toni Rome]

I know.

[Joe Rome]

Seriously, like, you're the kind. Why are you the kind of person? Is there something going on that would make you say something, a ridiculous thing, but rather than saying that, you just say, are you okay? So this is one of the best rejoinders I know.

[Toni Rome]

I used it once, and I felt so powerful in that moment. It was against this horrible man who was, like, being really rude to one of my friends. Like, he was just, like, not responding to her when she, like, talked. And I, like, literally, like, paused the conversation. I was like, are you okay? And it felt, like, amazing. Like, you guys, whenever a man is being terrible to you, ask him if he's okay. It's just, like, a strategy that always works.

[Joe Rome]

This is a great line. It's the simplest thing you can say, hey, are you okay? It rhymes short words, but there's no response. Yeah, because what is the person supposed to say? Yes, I am okay. Well, now you're talking about. Yeah, right. Well, then, you know, why are you treating.

[Toni Rome]

Why'd you say that? Yeah, exactly. The man that I talked to didn't even say anything. He was like, what? He just, like, looks so flustered. Then he didn't speak for, like, another, like.

[Joe Rome]

Well, that's the power of the line. Because you. You're not. This is reframing. This is. This is classic refrain.

[Toni Rome]

Now let's do the pre chorus.

[Joe Rome]

I do very much.

[Toni Rome]

My daughter and I ain't trying to mess with your self expression, but I've learned a lesson that's stressing and obsessing about somebody else's no fun. And snakes and stones never broke my bones.

[Joe Rome]

So, yeah, another great series of lines.

[Toni Rome]

Because she got called a snake by Kim Kardashian.

[Joe Rome]

Right? So the mess with your self expression. This is. Hey, I recognize First Amendment rights. Yeah, man, you can say the hate speech, right?

[Toni Rome]

Say whatever you want, man, but just for your own good. Like, you might want to. Like, not straight up. Like, not straight up.

[Joe Rome]

That's the point. The point is, you know, we live in this country. In theory, you can. Hate speech is not illegal.

[Toni Rome]

In theory.

[Joe Rome]

Guess what?

[Toni Rome]

My school loves that.

[Joe Rome]

I've learned a lesson. And by lesson, she means the events leading up to the Reputation album and the Reputation album itself, in some sense that all of this anger and obsession over what other people say. Not really healthy. No.

[Toni Rome]

No, it is not.

[Joe Rome]

And now this. Snakes and stones never broke my bones.

[Toni Rome]

Never broke my bones.

[Joe Rome]

So this is a twist on Sticks and Stones.

[Toni Rome]

It is. And utilizing a common expression and turning it around, that's another figure of speech, right?

[Joe Rome]

Yes. Well, if that's called an allusion, she's making an allusion to a very famous saying, but she's tweaking it. This is one of her favorite things to do as she does in the opening of Get a Getaway Car. It was the best of times, it was the worst of.

[Toni Rome]

Crimes, crimes, crimes.

[Joe Rome]

She switches it from crimes.

[Toni Rome]

That's part of what makes her Taylorisms. That's part of her Taylorism is she just takes common turns of phrases and she twists them a little bit.

[Joe Rome]

And this is something you can do. It's very powerful in speech because if you want to be remembered. Right. You said the point of the figures of speech, the point of what we can learn from Taylor is this idea that the most important thing is to be memorable. Because if people don't remember what you say, it doesn't matter what you say. So one way to be remembered is to take a saying that everybody knows and change the last word.

[Toni Rome]

So true.

[Joe Rome]

Because that's going to be.

[Toni Rome]

Because then you hook them and then the last word catches them.

[Joe Rome]

Catches them. They force them to think, oh, wow. Right? So this is. This is just a. You know, this is like many of Taylor's best songs. This is really a whole textbook of the best writing tricks. Now, as my daughter said, snakes is the reference to. She was called a snake because Kim Kardashian. Right?

[Toni Rome]

Kim Kardashian. I never actually seen the tweet where Kim Kardashian called her a snake, but it was like. It was like she posted on National Snake Day and she was like, wow, it's National Snake Day. I can't believe they're giving anybody, I mean, anything a National Day. It was like shade. It was shade. And somebody wrote it for her.

[Joe Rome]

Right. And this was all about a. Intentionally.

[Toni Rome]

I know. Miscending is ridiculous.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

I mean, it was all an effort. It was just.

[Toni Rome]

I know. And then the actual video came out and was quite clear that Taylor Swift did not give permission for, like, Contact.

[Joe Rome]

That was the point. So.

[Toni Rome]

So.

[Joe Rome]

But, you know, to Taylor's credit, she decided to. I'm gonna own the snake.

[Toni Rome]

Right?

[Joe Rome]

And the whole Reputation album and tour and. And. And in the Errors tour, she ate that up. Right. In the Eras tour, when she does

[Toni Rome]

Reputation, I feel like the hate that she's getting now. There are better ways to, quote, unquote, own that than life of a showgirl. I think there were better ways. Although I have been listening to Opalite on repeat this week. I don't know why it's just stuck in my head. Well, I love the music video.

[Joe Rome]

She put out the music video.

[Toni Rome]

Oh, it's so good, guys. I love Lewis Capaldi Stream. Louis Capaldi and the dude that was in it from Black Mirror. That redhead guy. Love him too. He was my crush when I watched Black Mirror.

[Joe Rome]

You should definitely. The Opalite video is one of her really good, over the top, campy videos.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah. She likes to pose as a brunette in her music videos. I've noticed.

[Joe Rome]

She does. She does. And sometimes she does that when she's playing her sort of dark.

[Toni Rome]

I know. I think that's a very interesting symbolism and very interesting to view as somebody who's also, like, brunette or, like, a dark. Usually people consider my hair black, but it's actually brunette. You know, people think that my eyes change color. Sorry, do you guys ever meet people who say that? I always make fun of them and then I feel bad because they're like, well, they do.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

And I.

[Toni Rome]

And I'm like, oh, my eyes change color. I'm just kidding. Anyway, the point is that Taylor Swift and being blonde is, I think, something that is worth discussing as part of her Persona. But perhaps that's a thesis for another. For another time.

[Joe Rome]

Well, what I just wanted to say, the saying is, six and stones can break my bones.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah. And she goes to never.

[Joe Rome]

I also noticed that she goes to never. So she's saying, look, I'm so strong that not even those things bother me, period. Right. So don't think that your words are gonna bother me.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah, right.

[Joe Rome]

But it's a little ironic because this is this again. Well, we'll get to. I think this whole question of. She's got this whole song about how these words shouldn't bother her, but as we know, words do bother her.

[Toni Rome]

Right, And. Yeah, exactly. Are we moving to the chorus or did we already do that?

[Joe Rome]

Let's do the chorus.

[Toni Rome]

Okay, so. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. You need to calm down. You're being too loud. And I'm just like, oh, oh, oh, oh. You need to just stop. Like, can you just not step on my gown? You need to calm down. You know?

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[Joe Rome]

yeah, I

[Toni Rome]

just say, you know, I say, you

[Joe Rome]

know, it's a great. It's a. It's a great chorus.

[Toni Rome]

And then after we talked about. Yeah, you need to calm down. You need to just stop. And a lot of songs use this format where it's like you. You have your beginning, few words, and then you end off with something, and then you continue with those same beginning, few words and then you end off with something different.

[Joe Rome]

And that's anaphora.

[Toni Rome]

Right, Right.

[Joe Rome]

And. And. And she does that, by the way, in red.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah, the.

[Joe Rome]

In the opening of Red.

[Toni Rome]

Like I never knew Missing him was dark brain all alone Forgetting him Was like trying to love somebody yeah. Was like, was like, was like. And then. And then she also does that in Cruel Summer. It's cruel. The shape of your body it's blue the feeling I got it's like she uses the same structure. Is that Panaphora? If you use the same general structure.

[Joe Rome]

Look, this song, she addresses it to you. You need to. And. And then you are somebody we don't know. And you just need to take several seats. Right.

[Toni Rome]

So this is because it's. It's different. Yeah. Repetition is different than an afraid.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

Right.

[Joe Rome]

But an afraid is repeating the first word or for several words. And if your entire song is built around you, then that is an afro. And let me just make the point that I won't save it for the end. But this song is a very clever twist on Shake it off.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

Because Shake it off is the. Really is. Yes. Is the converse in Shake It Off? It's. I'm gonna shake it off. It's about what I have to do. This song is about. You need to calm down. Right. So the repeated word is in. In shake it off as I, I, I, I, I. In fact, you know, when you get to the chorus. Right. I just need to shake it off. I, I, I remember that part at the end. This song is about you. And the reason that I came to the View, because I listened to this song.

[Toni Rome]

I know you did.

[Joe Rome]

A bunch of times.

[Toni Rome]

Many, many times. I'm sure.

[Joe Rome]

And I realized the O in the chorus.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.

[Joe Rome]

How many of those are there? Five. Player's gonna play, play, play, play, play. So the repetition five times is a signature of hers. I'm just saying this is a little callback in my mind.

[Toni Rome]

Oh my God. Yeah. And that makes sense because usually when there are eight kind of beats that you can hit in a measure, you want to save 3, 3 or something like that for an actual like kind of thing. Right. She can just say, the player's gonna play, play, play, play, play. And the haters gonna hate, hate, hate, hate, hate. Yeah. Anyway, just some music theory for you guys. Except it's not music theory. It's just Antonia Rome being 19 years old and discovering how songs work. So.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah, no, look, I just, she does a lot of things like this. And you know, one of the points we've made and I hope people do go back, a lot of people, people have been going back and listening to the first season where we dive into some of these in, in greater detail. But the point is what I like about Taylor's songs. People always say, well, why are you 65 year old guy like Taylor songs? I like Taylor songs because there's a lot going on in them. And you don't need to see it all to appreciate the song.

[Toni Rome]

No, you don't.

[Joe Rome]

And this is how she's like a modern day Shakespeare. Because Shakespeare operates at two levels also.

[Toni Rome]

He does. You can enjoy the Groundlings and for the Gentry.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah, and, and there's a lot going on in Shakespeare plays.

[Toni Rome]

And what the problem is is that I think what's happened now with Taylor Swift is that people think that she's just making music for like Groundling type people. When in reality, many of the people that she's making songs for are, are, are people who are, you know, very. What, like they like music, you know, like they're appreciators of music and good music. And I think that when, whenever a dominant, the dominant group that enjoys something is a group of girls, they. People always presume that the music is somehow like less intelligent or worse or generally bad. And I genuinely believe that that is what is happening right now. Because the thing that people think about Taylor Swift is like, it's like If Shakespeare, like, they think that it's like, versus, like, Shakespeare just makes plays for Gentry, like, all of his sex jokes. They can't look past them to see the deeper emotional truths. They don't even try. And it's just frustrating. It's so frustrating that I see people, even my close friends, like, fall into that, because it's just like, what are you talking about? It's like, at a certain point, you have to understand that you can critique her for being a billionaire, which is fair, and critique her for using a lot of emissions to use her private jet. But, like, that is not a warranted response to like, you know, like, do you like Taylor Swift's music? You know, people say, no. Her music is like, well, that just tells me that they haven't listened to Taylor Swift.

[Joe Rome]

I mean, seriously, as we said, matters of personal taste are not subject to dispute.

[Toni Rome]

You can say, I think that there's no way to hate Taylor Swift music. That's my genuine and honest opinion. Like, you cannot like her music. It cannot be for you. But to hate, like, a lot of people. I don't. I don't get how people like Taylor Swift. What are you talking about? Like, that, just to be honest, tells me that you're a little bit sexist and you haven't worked through all of that.

[Joe Rome]

Well, like, genuinely, you know, I'm. I'm maybe not quite so judgmental as. But.

[Toni Rome]

But I'm very judgmental because I have to be around these people all the time. And some of them are really, like, close friends of mine. And it's just frustrating because sometimes they, like, poke fun at me for liking Taylor Swift. And it's like. I mean, like, I just. At that. At a certain point, it's just like. I don't even know what to say to that. It's just so insane.

[Joe Rome]

I mean, you know, she's obviously one of the most.

[Toni Rome]

But it's like, well, I mean, look.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah, I think it's always. When I was blogging and I was getting hate, I talked to a friend of mine who was a New York Times columnist, and he. He said, look, a third of people are gonna hate you no matter what. Stick your head out. That's just gonna. That they're contrarian. They. Whatever it is. Right. So, you know, and I think part of this. This song partly is about just. It's not my problem. It's your problem.

[Toni Rome]

Right, Right. Do.

[Joe Rome]

Let's get to the. The important next verse. Yeah, the second verse.

[Toni Rome]

You are somebody that we don't know, but you're chilling. Whoa. You are somebody that we don't know? But you're coming at my friends like a missile? Why are you mad? When you could be glad? You could be glad? Sunshine on the street at the parade? But you would rather be in the dark ages Making that sign Must have taken all night. And like, that verse, like, you know, as somebody who is allegedly bisexual. No, I'm just kidding. I say alleged because, you know, my friends make fun of me. I've never, like, dated a woman, but to be honest, it's like I've dated one.

[Joe Rome]

Your friends make fun of you for this? I didn't know.

[Toni Rome]

Oh, I make fun of myself for I call myself, like, allegedly bisexual. But, like, yeah, I mean, like, glaad, she's not. She has it written glaad. Like G L A A D, which is obviously the extremely famous. The Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation. So it's like an American organization is what genius says. Founded by members of the LGBT community for fights for LGBTQ rights. And on June 1, 2019, Taylor Swift made a huge donation to GLAAD to create campaigns that fight back against the rise of hate and discrimination. Wow. And she created a petition in support of the Equality act, which would help bring more equality for minorities. And take.

[Joe Rome]

And the music video ends that way. Way the music video ends. The music video is very important to really understand what Taylor's doing as. As it sometimes is. Right. This is a great music video. And the music video features some very famous lgbtq.

[Toni Rome]

Yes. Tan. I'm pretty sure from Queer Eye. Jonathan, too, maybe RuPaul. I haven't watched it.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah, it does. And. And. And a whole bunch of impersonators of famous impersonators, famous female singers. And so, yeah, I mean, it's a

[Toni Rome]

very entertaining shout out gay people like, yay. And the other thing is, like, obvious how horrible a person you are protesting people for just being themselves. So a lot of people resort to talking online and being like, ew, dumb f. Slur. Or like, ew, you're stupid. Or like, yada, yada, queer. They call things gay. And it's like, what are you doing? It's like, are you okay? Because the problem, and this is my favorite statistic I'm pretty sure in the entire world, is that people who are homophobic and say they're straight are more likely to actually be gay than people who are allies and are straight. And that is beautiful to me.

[Joe Rome]

Well, what I like Sunshine on the street at the parade. You would rather be in the darkest ages. So, yeah. Making that sign setting up the lightness versus the darkness metaphor. Right. She is about. And that's why the song begins at 7am right? It begins at sunrise. And. And. And there's a lot of. In the music video, there's a lot of people.

[Toni Rome]

Oh, yeah, 7:00am that's so true.

[Joe Rome]

And she's sunning herself. Right. And later in the music video, we'll see all of her friends sunning themselves. Themselves.

[Toni Rome]

That's beautiful.

[Joe Rome]

She and her friends represent lightness, and the other side represents the dark ages. And one of the ways that we know that is the next lines.

[Toni Rome]

Yes. Which is you just need to take several seats and then try to restore the peace and control your urges to scream about all the people you hate. Because shade never made anybody less gay. Which is so true. Which is very easy to understand. And it's a very powdery thing. And I think that, honestly, the more important part of the song is the chorus.

[Joe Rome]

But if I could just say one thing.

[Toni Rome]

Ugh. Are you. Do you want to like men? Like, try to speak. I'm just kidding. I make fun of my dad a lot, but I really love him.

[Joe Rome]

But this shade never made anybody less gay. Shade is the darkness.

[Toni Rome]

That's so true.

[Joe Rome]

Right? So this is why she's. It doesn't. It's not just that shade rhymes with gay, but you throw shade. You're. You're literally putting someone in a shadow.

[Toni Rome]

Right.

[Joe Rome]

That's the point of the metaphor. Right. And so again, we have light versus dark. And you could also make a deeper point, which she might have thought about, which is that these other people would like the gays back in the closet.

[Toni Rome]

That's so true.

[Joe Rome]

In the darkness.

[Toni Rome]

Sad.

[Joe Rome]

Right? That's what they want.

[Toni Rome]

Right.

[Joe Rome]

And she.

[Toni Rome]

I love the fact that you were just like that. Some people would like the gays back in the closet. Well, look, you're so funny, dad.

[Joe Rome]

This is all the metaphor of light versus dark being seen.

[Toni Rome]

Did you know that my dad told me when I came out to him as bisexual that it was more surprising that I didn't like sitcoms with the laugh tracks on them than it was that I was gay? I remember that so vividly. I think about that sometimes.

[Joe Rome]

It sounds. I can vaguely remember it. It certainly sounds like something I would have said. Oh, my God. I think that it was not totally surprising. You came out pretty young.

[Toni Rome]

I was pretty queer child, you could say. Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

Anyway, let's do the. The bridge, because I know you very much want to do the bridge. There's a chorus. We don't need to repeat except one thing about the second chorus. Instead of,

[Toni Rome]

oh, yeah, can you just not step on his gown?

[Joe Rome]

Right. She's gonna do that again in the final chorus. She's gonna tweak. Was my gown, then it was his gown.

[Toni Rome]

His gown.

[Joe Rome]

Right.

[Toni Rome]

And then our gown.

[Joe Rome]

Right. So, but let's. Let's do the the bridge.

[Toni Rome]

And we see you over there on the Internet comparing all the girls who are killing it. But we figured you out, we all know now we all got crowns. You need to calm down. Yeah, I, I. It's nice and short, but snappy and you know, though we all know now we figured you out we all know now we all got crowns. That is an aphra.

[Joe Rome]

It is. And, and this is what she does in the song you could say is switch from the the you versus me to the you versus we.

[Toni Rome]

And oh, my gosh, like in, like in like, like, like, like in, like in Aaron Burr's. Wait for it. Where he's like. Where he's like, love doesn't discriminate. Death doesn't discriminate. Life doesn't discriminate.

[Joe Rome]

Ha.

[Toni Rome]

Chills. Sorry. I love Hamilton.

[Joe Rome]

Just bringing in the music video.

[Toni Rome]

Done with me. Guys, when are we going to talk about Hamilton on this podcast?

[Joe Rome]

We can do an episode on Hamilton in my book, which I was quoting, how to Go Viral and Reach Millions. I talk a lot about Hamilton.

[Toni Rome]

He has it prepped.

[Joe Rome]

I didn't know. I prepped it for Anaphora. Yes, I did prep it.

[Toni Rome]

Plugging his book. Shame.

[Joe Rome]

I will. For those of you who are interested in. In learning all the secrets of storytelling, this has. It's in this book now. This book I wrote in 2018. So it was before it the Taylor Swift era. So there's a. But there's a lot of Lin Manuel, Miranda, and Hamilton in this.

[Toni Rome]

And Lady Gaga.

[Joe Rome]

And Lady Gaga.

[Toni Rome]

I love Gaga. Yes. But period.

[Joe Rome]

So as we're kind of winding down here, you know, comparing all the girls who are killing it in. In the music video is the big reveal. Because Katy Perry.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

Is the hamburger. And she is the friend. And. And she's wearing a hamburger costume. And. And Taylor is wearing the Frank French fries. And I know we haven't been told this is them saying, hey, guess what? We're friends.

[Toni Rome]

We're friends.

[Joe Rome]

Right? We're friends.

[Toni Rome]

Don't compare women to each other who are talented. Like, my biggest pet peeve is when people are like, like, like, oh, my gosh, Beyonce is so much better than Taylor Swift. Apples and oranges, guys. Apples and oranges. And it's also like, they're both beautiful, powerful, talented women. Like, you never like, okay. The only time where it's like okay is like, when you say that Kendrick Lamar is better than Drake. Because that's objectively true because they are just directly connected by their beef. And it's like, if two artists are in relation to each other, then maybe you can say like, I don't know, at the height of their beef, like, I'd still say like, Taylor Swift is better than Katy Perry, but they're both very talented. It's not like, it's not like, okay to just randomly compare them like that. Like, it's like, well, yeah, I think, yeah, her point is to say that.

[Joe Rome]

And women are subjected to more intense scrutiny and comparison. And, you know, let's be clear this. There was a feud between them, right? I mean, there was. I mean, it wasn't, you know, one of those made up things.

[Toni Rome]

But that's also true. I mean, is it even really nice to say, like, I mean, like, listen, I feel like when you have talent in something and you're in this industry that, you know, is competitive by its very nature, you know, you're competing for attention because there's so many hours in a day to listen to songs. Like, you know, comparison really does kill, like, dreams and like money and time. And it's just like, I don't know, sometimes I'm like, is it even worth it to have debates about who's good and who's bad? Or should we just listen to the people we want to listen to?

[Joe Rome]

I mean, yes. To do the extreme version. I mean, Michelangelo versus Da Vinci.

[Toni Rome]

I know.

[Joe Rome]

You know, Monet versus Van Gogh. I mean, what's just, you know, guess what? You can like a lot of people and they can be very different. We saw both Taylor Swift versus Manet. Yes. One of them stole the name intentionally.

[Toni Rome]

Did Manet really steal Monet's name?

[Joe Rome]

But look, we saw, We've seen Taylor Swift do the Eras tour and we've seen Beyonce in the Cowboy Carter tour. And you'd want to see both of them.

[Toni Rome]

We saw both of them. I would like rap, like, the choice of both of them. Like, the choice between either two. Like, I'd say both. Like, literally like both.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

I mean, look, Beyonce is a masterful singer.

[Toni Rome]

She is.

[Joe Rome]

I love, you know, and, and everything about that show is just super awesome. Yeah, the same is also true. She, you know, Taylor is not the vocalist.

[Toni Rome]

Right. Taylor Swift is a singer, songwriter, and Beyonce is. She's a Singer, songwriter and a vocalist. Yeah.

[Joe Rome]

And.

[Toni Rome]

And, you know, but her vocalist abilities are crazy.

[Joe Rome]

There's no. There's. She is one of the top vocalists, and I. And I'm sure if we were. If Taylor Swift. When. When Taylor Swift comes on the podcast, she would.

[Toni Rome]

When Taylor. Yes, guys, can we. Can that be a goal? Like, can we actually get her on this podcast? Like, we actually need her to be on this podcast. Like, I want to speak to her. I want to say hi. I want to say hey.

[Joe Rome]

Like, well, let's. Let's. If any.

[Toni Rome]

I want to help her on her music videos. Like, I would totally, like, help her. Like, they. Like, like. I just read my. I read my admissions file today, actually, and I submitted a video that I think pretty much got me from the deferral pool into the accepted pool, and they commented on it specifically and said that it was creative, and it had a really fun twist at the end. It showed off creativity. Wow. Taylor Swift, I can help you. Taylor Swift, Let me help you. I don't say that to brag. I say that because networking never stops, you guys. Networking never stops. It's always time to plug yourself and network. Taylor Swift, if you're listening, let me help you. Not help, help. I'm not on level, but, like, let me, like, intern for you. Like, let me intern for you. Like, that would look great on a resume.

[Joe Rome]

Well, I would say the following. If there's anyone out there who knows someone who knows someone, I will send you the video.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah, I will send you the video. I made it in literally two days on, like, my friend's, like, camcorder. They graciously helped me film it. I wrote the script for it myself.

[Joe Rome]

It's a great video.

[Toni Rome]

Myself.

[Joe Rome]

It's a great video. So, yeah.

[Toni Rome]

So anyway, after bragging shamelessly about myself. Well, but anyway, look, brag about my great father who gave me the verbal and creative skills to be able to do that. Aw. Love you, dad.

[Joe Rome]

You are a better writer at your age than I was for a very long time. And frankly, my creative writer.

[Toni Rome]

I'm sure you were better than me at physics at your age. Being my age right now, maybe, you know, just based on how I'm doing electromagnetism, but it's okay.

[Joe Rome]

Anyway, look, this is a great song,

[Toni Rome]

and it is a great song.

[Joe Rome]

This is the album, right? That. That where she gets a little more political, right? It has the man. It has Miss Americana, right? And then in the movie, we see that she gets very political on this, on these issues. She drops in 20, 20 but yeah. And just, you know, it ends with the chorus again, but. And then it switches to. Can you just not step on our gowns?

[Toni Rome]

And that's beautiful.

[Joe Rome]

Right?

[Sponsor Voice 2]

And.

[Joe Rome]

And this has a little bit of. Or I should say Chapel Roan song. Pink Pony Club.

[Toni Rome]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah, right.

[Joe Rome]

Is the place where everyone is queens.

[Toni Rome]

Yeah, right.

[Joe Rome]

Everyone can be king and queens. And this song also. They're all wearing crowns. Right?

[Toni Rome]

They're all wearing crowns. So it's this episode on Chapel Roan, I think.

[Joe Rome]

I think we will do an episode on Chapel Roan.

[Toni Rome]

Yes, we have talked about that. Oh, my gosh, I love her.

[Joe Rome]

We will do. Look, I think I definitely would like to talk about one or two of her songs, I think. Yes.

[Toni Rome]

If you're out there, give a girl a ring. A ring.

[Joe Rome]

Oh, well, she's Midwestern. She's Midwestern.

[Toni Rome]

Oh, my gosh. She's in my area.

[Joe Rome]

She's a Midwestern princess. So she's.

[Toni Rome]

We're in the same place right now.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah. Although, look, you know, even though I'm

[Toni Rome]

like, literally east coast. Faux life. Faux life. Like Chapel Round. Hit me. Also, not that I know.

[Joe Rome]

Chicago is also not that far from Nashville.

[Toni Rome]

Oh, that's true.

[Joe Rome]

Taylor still has a home there. Thank you again for listening, for getting us into the top 50.

[Toni Rome]

I know.

[Joe Rome]

Been shooting for that for a long time. It doesn't seem like a big deal, but I guess it's very hard to get into that top 50, as evidenced by the fact that there's no other Taylor Swift podcast in the top 50.

[Toni Rome]

What can we say? What can we say except stream decoding Taylor Swift and tell your friends about it.

[Joe Rome]

Tell your friends. So we can stay here in. In the top 50 forever. Forever.

[Toni Rome]

Preferably in the top 25. And next the top 10. And next the top three. And then the world.

[Joe Rome]

Yeah. Well, that's Joe Budden territory, I'm afraid that's Joe Button.

[Toni Rome]

Oh, my gosh. We can't let Joe. We cannot step on Joe Budden's toes. He'll come for us.

[Joe Rome]

Alrighty. Until next time. Next time we are going to be doing Lover. Lover from the album Lover. Yes. And after that, the Archer.

[Toni Rome]

Archer. I love the Archer. And that's my favorite.

[Joe Rome]

That will close out.

[Toni Rome]

That'll close out the.

[Joe Rome]

The Lover section of the ERAS tour.

[Sponsor Voice 2]

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[Toni Rome]

Close your eyes. Exhale. Feel your body relax. And let go of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them delivered free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh, they're so fast.

[Joe Rome]

And breathe.

[Toni Rome]

Oh, sorry. I almost couldn't breathe when I saw the discount they gave me on my first order. Oh, sorry. Namaste. Visit 1-800-contacts.com today to save on your first order. 1-800-contacts.