B (2:06)

I'll start again. Everybody in music has their own sort of niche specialty thing that they do that, you know, sets them apart from everybody else. My storytelling is what it is for me. So storytelling is what made Taylor Taylor. That's why we know her today. And if you become an expert in storytelling, you will be able to achieve what you want. Now, I wasn't always an expert on storytelling, but when you were three, you started saying blah, blah, blah to me. But I was okay with you repeating things you heard because kids repeat things that they heard, so as long as you use them correctly. So I asked you if you knew what blah, blah, blah meant. You.

A (2:57)

I mean, this is all just allegedly. I don't remember any of this.

B (3:01)

You were three.

A (3:01)

I wasn't there.

B (3:02)

You were there. You were just three. You paused and said, it's when Daddy says something that doesn't matter.

A (3:10)

I don't think I said it like that.

B (3:11)

How would you have said it?

A (3:13)

It's when Daddy says something that doesn't matter.

B (3:15)

Oh, that's much better. Dang. You did know, and that hit me hard.

A (3:22)

I did? I did. Yeah.

B (3:23)

That hit me very hard. You were three and you told me that.

A (3:26)

That's kind of sad that you let a three year old, you know, say something that hurt you. Well, I mean, it's okay. It's okay.

B (3:34)

But I've turned it into a story I tell. It's an empowering story. It changed the course of my life. And it changed the course of your life.

A (3:41)

I can't believe I was so profound at three.

B (3:43)

You were.

A (3:44)

I was thinking about how profound I must be now.

B (3:47)

Indeed. And how skeptical you are of me even now. You were skeptical of me at the age of three. So now you're just.

A (3:53)

Wow.

B (3:54)

Yeah.

A (3:54)

Well, that's six times more skeptical you are, mathematically speaking.

B (3:59)

Yes. And guess what changed our lives. And I don't. I mean, I've told this.

A (4:08)

I mean, I fully don't remember this, so I can't say how much it changed my life, but I. I'm. If it changed your life, well, look happy for you.

B (4:15)

Before you, I didn't know how often I said things that didn't matter. That's the truth. I had a PhD.

A (4:20)

That's men in our society.

B (4:22)

Well, okay. I had a PhD in physics from MIT.

A (4:25)

Geez.

B (4:26)

And a successful blog that landed me in Rolling Stone magazine.

A (4:30)

Ladies, get in line.

B (4:32)

So figuring out that became my holy grail. My mission in life was figuring out what words mattered to you.

A (4:39)

Aw, thank you.

B (4:40)

And I came to realize that when I was telling stories, I had your attention. And when I wasn't, I didn't. So I studied the great storytellers. And they're the ones who told the long heroic stories and the original stories. They were the great bards. But the bards sang their songs. That's why those who don't gain fame are called unsung heroes.

A (5:05)

That's a pretty cool fact.

B (5:07)

Yeah. So I realized a good way to master these secret weapons of storytelling is to study how they're wielded by modern day bards, the singer songwriters. And you introduced me to a whole bunch.

A (5:20)

That's true. Well, before you, you only listened to The. To the Beatles.

B (5:24)

And abba.

A (5:25)

And abba.

B (5:26)

Oh, well, there we go again. I'm not even gonna look at that.

A (5:28)

I don't even think they have ah in Swedish. They probably don't.

B (5:30)

Sorry. Well, okay. The point is that I came to realize Swift was the best storyteller and that's how I got into Swift. And you got me more and more into Swift over the years. But tell me. That's sort of my story. That's the story of how I got here. Tell me what? You and Swift. Why is Swift so important to you?

A (5:50)

So I don't know. Why did I get interested in Taylor Swift? Well, I had anxiety a lot as a child, which, which obviously, you know, obviously many 2am calls that you took after I went to sleepovers and got scared that something was going to happen.

B (6:06)

And they weren't just phone calls, were they?

A (6:08)

No, they.

B (6:09)

They. They resulted in me doing more.

A (6:11)

No. Yeah, he. He drove and he picked me up at 2am by then it was 2:15. But before that. Before that. I don't know if you know this. My friend, My friend Anna, she put. She. She printed out a photo of your face from Wikipedia and put it on one of her body pillows to make me feel better.

B (6:28)

And before you told me that story last night, I had no idea that such a thing happened.

A (6:34)

And it was. It was. She was a great friend. She was a great friend and I should actually reach out to her because I really appreciated when she did that. Obviously, I still went home because I had just watched the Conjuring 2, which I'm pretty sure scared that she was conjuring too.

B (6:46)

I remember the phone call too. It's like so anxious. Why were you so anxious? Probably in the morning, you know, did you do anything that would make you anxious?

A (6:54)

I'm not a coward. Like, I watched the movie. I wasn't scared.

B (6:56)

One of the scariest movies ever made.

A (6:58)

Okay.

B (6:58)

The Conjuring.

A (6:59)

Conjuring Ghost don't exist. Yeah.

B (7:01)

Just so you know, they changed the whole rating system of movies so you could slap a R rating on a movie just because it was so damn scary.

A (7:06)

That was pretty bad. Yeah, it was pretty bad. It was scary. But you know what? At the end of the day, I think as you, as you pick me up, we sat in the car and we listened to some Taylor Swift.

B (7:17)

Sounds like something.

A (7:18)

I don't know. That was the first thing that I. The first moment that I kind of remembered feeling grounded after listening to any song. And after that I just started listening to Taylor Swift whenever I Got anxious, you know, before tests, before I had to speak publicly, before big presentations, I would just listen to blank space, and I don't know why. There are great songs out there. She's not. She's not really even my. My favorite artist. She's definitely up there. She's in the top five. But, But. But, you know, there's so many other artists that I listen to, you know, Sza Hoer, all of them. I. I don't know why Taylor Swift has always just been the one that. That makes me remember that there are things in the world that. That are not ghosts or zombies and they cannot hurt me.

B (8:02)

Well, she's a great storyteller, and storytellers are immersive, and they take you to another world.

A (8:06)

They do, yeah. It's kind of like popping open a. A nice book and leaving life for a while. But, yeah, I. That's why I guess I love Taylor Swift so much, and I think it's worth talking about because if that happened for me, very anxious individual, then it can probably happen for more anxious individuals and they will become normal individuals who are not anxious and who do other things well.

B (8:27)

And you've learned to control your anxiety over the years.

A (8:30)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think Taylor Swift helped me do that. I think. I think realizing that one of the best coping mechanisms there is is just reminding yourself that there's are other things to be scared about. Honestly, people get surprised when I say this, but watching the news kind of calms me down because it remembers. It makes me remember that, you know, there are drone strikes happening and that my calculus exam is not the worst thing going on today. So, you know, it makes me feel a bit better. It gives you perspective. I think listening to songs and stories can give you a lot of good perspective.

B (9:01)

So, yes, she's a great storyteller. I think one of the simple points for Taylor and for us is that one of the essence of storytelling, the hero's journey, is this idea of karma. What goes around comes around. And in a Vogue interview, 2016, she was asked, what do you think is the most important life lesson for someone to learn?

A (9:19)

That karma's real.

B (9:20)

And we see karma in a lot of her songs, including that is true.

A (9:25)

Including the titular song, Karma. That's, you know.

B (9:30)

Absolutely. And also in look what you made me do, where she says, all I.

A (9:35)

Think about, I thought you didn't like reputation.

B (9:37)

You know, we'll get to that later.

A (9:39)

I don't know. It feels like we should get to that now, because I kind of want to talk to you. About that. I've been meaning to talk to you about that. I think Reputation is a great album because it says that, you know. You know, women, they don't have to be like, oh, oh, my gosh. Wow, look at me. I'm writing little pop songs. They can. They can write whatever they want, and they can say whatever they want. And, you know, I mean, it was cute. You know, she was kind of making her little. Her little steppies into a little edgy territory. I thought that was great.

B (10:07)

It's true. It's true. I, I. As you know, I had an issue with the song, look what you made me do, because that's sort of what gaslighters do. They blame other people. They make it. They try to turn other people.

A (10:23)

I think women should gaslight people.

B (10:25)

All right, well, I'm gonna. I'm gonna remember that.

A (10:27)

And I'll get. I'll. Well, yeah, and I'll probably gaslight you on this podcast to demonstrate that women can do that. We can be empowering in the horrible things that we. We do, you know?

B (10:38)

Well, one of her points in the song was, maybe I got mine, but you'll get yours. And that's sort of what that album was about. A lot. Yes. She. She was. She felt betrayed, and this was her response. And I get what you're saying. So this just gets to the whole point of the centrality of what our topic is today.

A (11:03)

Sure. The centrality. Yes.

B (11:05)

Of foreshadow.

A (11:06)

Foreshadow.

B (11:07)

Foreshadow. Like, exactly. The basic idea of the story, particularly Taylor stories. What goes around comes around. So what goes around has to be foreshadowed in the story. What comes around is how it bites you back, and that's the irony.

A (11:25)

Sure.

B (11:26)

So this is all I'm saying. That's one of the core things anybody who wants to tell stories has to understand.

A (11:32)

Right.

B (11:32)

From Shakespeare to the great bards to Taylor Swift. Why is foreshadow so important to anybody? The listener, a writer, someone who's tweeting. Oh, because we don't tweet anymore. But someone who's doing a TikTok video. One of the reasons why we like foreshadow is because we see patterns in our own life. Like, we do seem to date the same type of person over and over and over again. Right. We don't seem to often. We don't learn. Maybe, you know, when you get to be older, hopefully you'll learn. But I can tell you, I am older, and it's not clear to me how many people actually do learn that. And so let's talk about for Taylor. Taylor has a song she wrote a long time ago which has an amazing piece of foreshadow of her own life. Ironic foreshadow, right?

A (12:25)

15. Yes.

B (12:27)

Which she wrote. She sang. He wrote this song 15 about what? It's like, what she didn't know at the age of 15. She wrote it when she was 19. Or she wrote it 18 and then sang it.

A (12:36)

Sure.

B (12:36)

Right. So what is the line in that song that is so amazing? Foreshadow.

A (12:41)

Oh, yeah. Well, in your life, you'll do things greater than dating the boy on the football team. I didn't know it at 15, and she still doesn't know it because she's dating Travis Kelce.

B (12:52)

So, yes, when she was 19, she wrote a song about at 15, she didn't know there were more important, greater things than dating the boy in the football team.

A (12:59)

If I were Travis, man, I'd be pissed. So take that song off Spotify.

B (13:04)

So the point is that, yes, we do say things and go through things, and frankly, that's the point of the blah, blah, blah story. Here we go. That was when you were three. So that was three 15 years ago.

A (13:18)

That was 15 years ago. And wow. Things. I didn't know it at three.

B (13:22)

But you did know them at three.

A (13:24)

I did, actually. Who knew that the most important thing I did in my life would actually be telling my dad to shut up?

B (13:31)

I don't think you told me to shut up.

A (13:33)

I don't think I did, either. I think I told you to speak smarter.

B (13:36)

You told me that. What? I. You said I was saying things that didn't matter.

A (13:39)

Yeah.

B (13:40)

You wanted something more. You didn't want nothing.

A (13:42)

That's true.

B (13:43)

Right?

A (13:43)

That is true.

B (13:44)

You didn't want.

A (13:44)

So wise.

B (13:45)

Yes.

A (13:45)

Well, you learned. You've clearly learned.

B (13:47)

I have learned.

A (13:47)

Congratulations, young padawan.

B (13:49)

Thank you.

A (13:49)

You've become the master.

B (13:51)

Well, I have often told people that I have learned more from you than you ever learned from me.

A (13:59)

I think that's backhanded. I think that implies that I haven't learned very much. I swear I've learned.

B (14:03)

I'll leave that up to other people to decide.

A (14:06)

Oh, my God.

B (14:07)

But the point is, this is the real world. In the real world, there are elements of who we are today in our childhood. And by the way, that's natural. That's an authentic person. Right. People don't just suddenly develop a whole new personality. Talent, skill, passion. At, like, the age of 30, for which there's nothing earlier in his life it just doesn't happen. Right. So foreshadow happens in our life and frankly, when we try to make sense of our own lives.

A (14:36)

Right.

B (14:36)

We do look for those elements and other people do too.

A (14:40)

Right, right, right. Because what, what you love obviously shows up in your childhood.

B (14:44)

No, absolutely.

A (14:45)

Yeah. Foreshadow is just, you know, obviously in, in life when something happens to you, it doesn't happen out of nowhere. Right. You know, what goes around, comes around, but obviously it has to go around first. And foreshadow is just that, you know, it goes around. Whenever you talk to somebody new in your life, whenever you start a new relationship, start a new job, pursue your own interests, there are always patterns that, that you have experienced from before, from earlier in your life that, that contribute to how you respond to certain situations. And if you recognize those patterns, if you recognize the same things that show up in literature, because, you know, Jane Austen didn't just write about, you know, some fake human, know, fake, random alien that doesn't exhibit human traits. No, they mirror real life humans. And you, as a real life human, ostensibly, hopefully can understand that when you are, you know, you know, maybe having an argument with somebody or you are procrastinating, if you're doing a trait that, you know, you have experienced before, if you're falling into your old patterns again, you should be able to recognize them. If you know how to recognize, you know, foreshadow in literature, you can recognize it in your own damn life. And that's what makes it so freaking useful.

B (16:00)

I certainly, you know, my whole career is built around fighting climate change, focusing on the solutions to climate change.

A (16:08)

Mine has been going to school, but soon it will be something that is useful.

B (16:12)

Well, look, I think, and you have actually done a whole lot of stuff which we'll get into. But the point is, yes, people who want to change the world for the better have to become good at storytelling. Why? Because the existing world is built around stories. That's what define them. And the people who like the status quo have a lot of money to tell those stories loudly or, and pay politicians to tell those stories and set up think tanks to tell those stories and to put ads on TV that tell that story.

A (16:45)

Yeah, not a lot of laypeople know this stuff. And that's why it bothers me when people say, like, studying communications is useless. I don't think it's useless, but I do think that studying, you know, getting an English degree is also basically getting a degree in communications because it's those stories that are going to get you to a successful place in life.

B (17:02)

Well, and I just want to say that. Yes, the point is, as we foreshadowed in the beginning, the single most valuable skill that you can have is the ability to tell stories that people remember that go viral.

A (17:17)

Right. Because if people remember your stories, they're gonna remember you.

B (17:20)

Right. And if they don't remember what you say, it doesn't matter what you say.

A (17:25)

Yeah, right.

B (17:27)

And the last piece here is everyone's gonna have to learn how to tell their hero's journey story.

A (17:31)

Yeah, right.

B (17:32)

And we will get to that. And so the point is, you are gonna have to figure out what is the story that you tell the world about yourself. And that story better include some foreshadow. Cause that's what people expect in that story.

A (17:45)

And there are two main types of foreshadowing. There's overt, and then there's covert foreshadowing. And please expand on what those mean for us.

B (17:55)

As I've thought about it. Yeah. Because I did give a TEDx talk in which I go through this. That was a short version. And the more I've thought about it, there's really a spectrum of how obvious. Foreshadow is something that foreshadows that gives you some idea of something that's going to happen later, perhaps. Generally, the ending, generally we're foreshadowing bad stuff.

A (18:22)

Yeah, right, right.

B (18:23)

And sometimes it's going to be very, very overt. Like when the soothsayer in Julius Caesar says to Caesar, beware the Ides of March.

A (18:33)

Sure.

B (18:33)

Right. And sus. And Caesar says he doesn't hear him the first time. Gets him to repeat it. And guys, what does he say? He said, beware of the Ides of March. And then Caesar says, oh, he's a dreamer. Let him pass.

A (18:46)

Sure. Right.

B (18:47)

So we know disaster is coming. And indeed, Caesar gets killed on the Ides of March.

A (18:52)

On the Ides of March.

B (18:53)

Yes.

A (18:53)

Not in the month of March.

B (18:55)

Ides is the middle of March. It's the middle of the month. But in this case, it's March 15th.

A (18:59)

Oh, wow.

B (19:00)

March 15th is the ides of March.

A (19:03)

Wow. It's crazy that they have the documentation of that.

B (19:05)

Yes, well, this is the ancient Romans, so they had different funny words for everything.

A (19:09)

The ides. Yeah, let me start using that now.

B (19:12)

So that's pretty overt.

A (19:15)

Overt.

B (19:16)

Overt.

A (19:16)

Over foreshadowing.

B (19:18)

Overt, as in out in the open.

A (19:20)

Out in the open.

B (19:21)

You're not.

A (19:21)

You say what you mean.

B (19:22)

It's kind of very obvious.

A (19:23)

Right. I Knew you were trouble when you walked in.

B (19:26)

Right.

A (19:26)

Overt. Right, right.

B (19:28)

Other examples which we'll get to, you know, nothing good starts in a getaway car, Right? Okay, that's kind of obvious.

A (19:36)

That's very obvious.

B (19:36)

It starts in a getaway car.

A (19:38)

Starts.

B (19:38)

But nothing.

A (19:39)

But it's nothing good.

B (19:39)

Nothing good.

A (19:40)

It's nothing good.

B (19:41)

Nothing good.

A (19:41)

And they. And she tells you.

B (19:43)

So let's ease into.

A (19:45)

Sure.

B (19:45)

The COVID foreshadow.

A (19:47)

Okay.

B (19:48)

So we have.

A (19:50)

We can approach it more covertly.

B (19:52)

Some may say, no, this is overt.

A (19:53)

I just told them we're doing okay, but we're doing. We're easing into the COVID We're being covert.

B (19:57)

Okay. At the beginning of I knew you were in trouble. The very opening line is once upon a time, a few mistakes ago.

A (20:06)

Sure.

B (20:06)

Now, on one level, that's kind of overt. She says she's made mistakes in the past. So again, we're thinking this is going to be another mistake.

A (20:14)

Right.

B (20:14)

But then there's this phrase, once upon a time, which is quite unusual normally to begin a song with. You would think, because that's the beginning of a fairy tale.

A (20:24)

Sure, sure.

B (20:25)

But what does Once upon a Time. She's used the phrase, this is a song in the year 2012, I knew you were trouble four years earlier.

A (20:32)

Yeah. So she used the. She's used the phrase before, obviously. So in 2008, the very first song that she used it in was forever and Always. She starts Once upon a Time. I believe it was a Tuesday. Well, she uses it is in an ironic sense, a lot. She uses it because, you know, whenever you hear Once upon a Time, you think, fairy tale. Something good's gonna happen. But obviously today, Taylor Swift, as a woman of literature, knows that one of the best ways to get a point across is to subvert the meaning of something, which she does by using Once upon a Time in kind of a sarcastic way like Once upon a Time. Oh, I believe it was a Tuesday. I don't think in Once Upon a Time there are Tuesdays. I think it's not supposed to. You're not supposed to know when this time is. It's just one time. So obviously, Taylor's long and storied history of using Once upon a Time has not. Did not end with that song. And you. You can.

B (21:26)

And. And we will get to later on the third time. She ends. Uses Once upon a Time, which is the song mastermind.

A (21:34)

Right.

B (21:34)

And which has an interesting relationship to I know youw were Trouble.

A (21:38)

Yeah.

B (21:39)

But I wanted to talk about Once upon a Time. For a completely different and even more covert foreshadowing.

A (21:46)

Right.

B (21:46)

Because Once Upon a Time is the first line in one of the most famous and best regarded rock and roll songs of all time. And for those who saw the recent movie about Bob Dylan, you heard this song Once upon a Time. You dressed so fine you threw the bums a dime in your prime, didn't you?

A (22:09)

People, it's like slam poetry.

B (22:11)

What?

A (22:11)

Some slam poetry up here.

B (22:13)

Well, bumps A.B. dylan. Yes. People call, say, beware, doll, you're bound to fall. You thought they were all kidding you. So she is, by opening this song, Once Upon a Time. She is a scholar of great songs.

A (22:31)

Sure.

B (22:32)

And she has mentioned Dylan. She even mentions Dylan in Miss Americana. So she knows when she says Once upon a Time, she is referencing this some considered one of the greatest rock songs of all time. This song, which happens to be also be about a woman who ignores warnings. And because she ignores warnings, she crashes and burns.

A (22:54)

It's true.

B (22:55)

Now, it just so happens that I knew you were troubled.

A (22:58)

It just so happens, like we didn't plan.

B (23:00)

It's also about a woman who ignores warnings, except they're her own internal warnings.

A (23:05)

Internal warnings, yeah.

B (23:06)

And she. She crashes and burns.

A (23:09)

Yeah. Women can ignore red flags, too.

B (23:12)

So this is how she writes songs. And this is one of the points that we're going to be trying to make over and over again. She has a lot going on.

A (23:20)

Well, she writes things very intentionally. I think a lot of people, you know, they hear Taylor Swift and they think, oh, it's just. I can't. I don't know. Taylor Swift is just another pop singer. She just kind of says things. She just writes songs she thinks are going to be popular. That's not necessarily the case, I think. I mean, obviously all of her lyrics are really chosen carefully, and it makes it. It makes it hard to. To understand that as just a regular listener, because she puts. She puts so much out there that it can be a little bit overwhelming. And the stuff you hear on the radio is not all of her. Like, that's not all of what she does. And even the things on the radio, if you just pay attention to the rhythm, which is, you know, designed to be very addictive, you're not really going to get all of what you can get out of Taylor Swift because clearly there's a reason she's so popular. And it's worth noting that part of that is how intentionally she speaks about her stories, that how intentionally she chooses words.

B (24:17)

Well, and it was one of the reasons I came to really get very absorbed by her. Because I have been a student of Shakespeare as, you know, kind of obsessive over time.

A (24:29)

Very obsessive.

B (24:30)

I wrote a journal article in the journal Hamlet Studies.

A (24:33)

Yeah. He has, like, a framed poster of the entire script of Hamlet up on the.

B (24:38)

I do. I wrote a play about Hamlet and his son. Excuse me, Shakespeare and his son, whose name was Hamnet.

A (24:45)

Hamnet.

B (24:46)

In which Shakespeare only speaks from his plays.

A (24:49)

Sure, sure.

B (24:51)

And all these books that I've written, like how to Go Viral, Millions, which talks about all of this, but it also has Shakespeare in the subtitle. But what I also have, I spent a lot of time studying how does Shakespeare come convey meaning? Because I wasn't actually trying to learn storytelling back then. I was trying to figure out what he was saying. And I actually had this set of rules that I came up. And one of the rules was that Shakespeare uses foreshadowing throughout his plays, and he doesn't even just use foreshadowing at the start. And we will get into some of Shakespeare and Hamlet later. But the point is, Taylor's using the techniques of classical poetry, classical literature to convey meaning. And her songs have lots of different meanings in it. But part of the way we understand what she's saying is to understand her as a poet. And of course, her final most recent album, Tortured Poets Department, she clearly thinks of herself as a poet. And in fact, this gets to the title of our podcast.

A (25:50)

Sure. Yes.

B (25:50)

There is a line in Tortured Poets Department where she says to the guy, who's gonna decode you?

A (25:56)

Yeah.

B (25:57)

And who's going to hold you? And then she says, who's going to know you?

A (26:01)

Yeah. Because I mean, she likens decoding to knowing exactly. We are knowing Taylor Swift.

B (26:08)

Well, I think she wants to tell her listeners that to fully know me. Right. You have to decode me. There's more here than the literal surface meaning of the words. Right, right. And that's what poetry is about. That. That is the underlying figurative meaning of the word. And so let me point out one more very subtle use of foreshadow.

A (26:34)

Very covert.

B (26:35)

This is a very covert foreshadow. Although when I point it out to you, you'll say, no, no, that's overt.

A (26:42)

Yeah. And you're going to say that. You can say that aloud, even if you want, in your car, wherever you are.

B (26:48)

And what we're going to talk about is what's the worst thing that happens to Taylor in this song? Okay. It's. And it's often, as is, often the Case, the bridge is a very important point in the song. Right. So what is the bridge to? I knew you were trouble, and the saddest fear comes creeping in that you never loved me or her or anyone or anything.

A (27:20)

Yeah.

B (27:21)

So that's pretty bitter. Yeah, that's pretty bitter. But what did she say in the opening of a song?

A (27:30)

Well, she said, once upon a time, a few mistakes ago.

B (27:32)

But a couple lines later she says, I guess you didn't care.

A (27:37)

And I guess I liked that.

B (27:39)

Right. So she liked the guy who didn't care about her. And now she bitterly complains at the end of the song that he doesn't care and he didn't ever love her. But she knew that from the beginning.

A (27:50)

She knew.

B (27:51)

Right.

A (27:52)

From even, some could say from when he walked in.

B (27:55)

Indeed. So it was pretty overt. But you may not have noticed it at the time. But then when you get to the end, and this is often the case in great stories, you have to go back to the beginning and say, well, did anything in the beginning tell me that this particular ending was coming?

A (28:10)

Well, and that's how great plot twists are structured. You know, it has to be foreshadowed from the beginning, like an inception with his little spinning top. You know, it's the thing that he. That he uses to tell the difference between a dream and a reality. And I mean, obviously, you can't have great twists come out of nowhere. Right. Like, you can't have. I know. You can't have a movie about a dog and a cat and all of a sudden a big anvil falls upon them without first talking about how they're afraid of anvils.

B (28:37)

Well, and in fact, that is precisely what the famous poet Anton, A famous writer and playwright, Anton Chekov, said. That is, he said, if there's a gun on the mantle in the first act, or an anvil, it will be. It needs to be used in the final act.

A (28:54)

Sure.

B (28:55)

And I was looking up. He actually has variations of this. He says, if you're not going to use the gun in the final act, don't put the gun there in the first place.

A (29:04)

Sure.

B (29:05)

Right. We're not trying to mislead the reader. We're trying to create a coherent story. So that's what she's trying to do. This is about coherent storytelling, and this is how she writes songs. So let's just do one more here.

A (29:18)

One more.

B (29:19)

I mean, I wanted to get to all too well.

A (29:22)

Yes.

B (29:22)

Because that's her masterpiece.

A (29:24)

It is.

B (29:25)

And one of the points of the entire podcast.

A (29:28)

Well, you could say we could spend an entire season talking about how important.

B (29:32)

That is and getting into exactly everything that all Too well, her 10 and a half minute masterpiece is about. Is going to take all season. But let's dive into one more song that Taylor clearly considers important, which we mentioned, which is Getaway Car. And we know it's important to her because she put it into Miss Americana.

A (29:55)

She did. That was her documentary about her and.

B (29:57)

Her music in Netflix. And that doesn't. She only has a few songs in there, so it's pretty good evidence. And this comes from reputation.

A (30:04)

From reputation. It does.

B (30:05)

Right. And I think you reminded me that you told me this was an important song.

A (30:09)

I did. I literally did. And when we listened to it, well, we put it on in the car as we were going to this museum a few weeks ago, and he was like, yeah, it's a fine song. And now it's like, literally. He texted me last night. He said, I've listened to this song 11 times. It's all I can listen to.

B (30:23)

No, 100 times.

A (30:24)

Oh, my God.

B (30:24)

Yeah. No, that's how I interpret her songs. Yes, it's true. In preparing for the podcast, I watched Miss Americana again.

A (30:32)

Yeah, sure.

B (30:32)

And so there's Taylor singing Getaway Car. And then I thought, oh, my daughter was right all along.

A (30:41)

Yeah, well, obviously.

B (30:43)

So then I started listening to it.

A (30:44)

I'm on a 2, 2 time streak with the blah, blah, blah. Getaway Car.

B (30:48)

You were.

A (30:48)

That's why they pay me the big bucks. Can't lie.

B (30:50)

That is very true. And someday you'll pay me back the big bucks.

A (30:54)

Yeah. I spent a lot of money on doordash. I ask him for food.

B (30:59)

Yeah. And that let's, you know, forget about, like, tuition and stuff like that, but yes. So I started listening again. And as often happens with Taylor songs, certain lines bother me.

A (31:15)

Sure.

B (31:16)

And I have to listen over and over and over again until they. He just has to stop bothering me.

A (31:22)

You should get tested for that or do a podcast. That's true. And it's certainly cheaper. You'd be surprised.

B (31:30)

It is. So let's look at Getaway Car the same way we looked at I knew you were trouble.

A (31:37)

Sure.

B (31:38)

And the same way we'll eventually look at a lot of songs, including All Too well. All Too well, which has, I would say, more covert foreshadow than any of her other songs. That is what I'm just going to.

A (31:48)

I mean, it has 10. 10, 10 minutes.

B (31:51)

It does.

A (31:51)

Which is, you know, on average, six more minutes than any of her other songs.

B (31:56)

It is a much longer song. And by the way, since we're digressing.

A (32:00)

Here, since we were digressing, it didn't.

B (32:03)

Used to be common that songs were that long.

A (32:05)

No. Yeah.

B (32:07)

People played on the songs on the radio back in the day. They were all like two and a half minutes.

A (32:11)

Well, yeah, another. Now they're coming back down again. Apparently. It's like, it's a trend that people are observing is that songs are getting shorter and shorter and shorter.

B (32:19)

Except Taylor songs.

A (32:20)

These damn phones.

B (32:21)

Except Taylor.

A (32:21)

Except Taylor.

B (32:22)

Right.

A (32:22)

Keeps getting longer and longer. And I think tortured, tortured Poets department, that song is like four and a half minutes long.

B (32:29)

Yeah, well, look, you know, the Daddy.

A (32:30)

I Love him is like six minutes long.

B (32:32)

And it's like podcasts are popular too, because people are, are willing to listen to something longer if it's immersive. And you know, all too well, you know, she used to be the original was like five and a half minutes and then she added five minutes and get into why she might have done that. But one of the first long songs was in fact like a Rolling Stone by Dylan.

A (32:53)

Yeah, right.

B (32:53)

He kind of broke the mold with that song because again, the, the old people who played songs on the radio, they wanted to get ads in, so they didn't like long songs.

A (33:02)

Yeah.

B (33:03)

So the long songs have to be stories. Right? That's the whole point. You can tell long song. It's going to be a story. Sure. And for the people, my generation all too well broke the 50 year record for the longest duration number one song.

A (33:19)

Wow.

B (33:20)

And that song was Bye Bye Miss American Pie.

A (33:28)

Miss American Pie.

B (33:29)

Yes. That was seven and a half minutes. And that's that another storytelling song. There's a lot of COVID stuff in there, right. You know, the jester and the king and Queen for those who follow it. And I urge everyone to listen to that song.

A (33:45)

It's a good song.

B (33:46)

But she smashed that record here.

A (33:48)

The music died.

B (33:49)

But that's a whole digression.

A (33:50)

Sure.

B (33:52)

Which by the way, is a figure of speech. And we'll get into.

A (33:54)

Yes, it means to stray from the crowd, right? Yes, yes, it does. Does. And now we're going to do a regression.

B (33:59)

We're going to regress to getaway car.

A (34:02)

Getaway car.

B (34:02)

Okay.

A (34:03)

Okay. So.

B (34:06)

No, nothing good starts in a getaway car.

A (34:08)

Yeah, that's the very first line.

B (34:09)

And the key word there is the word no.

A (34:13)

No. Yeah, yeah, it is.

B (34:14)

So what is. Why does she do that? Why isn't the beginning. Nothing good starts in the getaway car? Why is the beginning. No.

A (34:20)

Well, it's her. It's her. It's. It's. It kind of. It's her saying that she is talking in the present tense, talking about something that happened. She's the narrator. She already knows that nothing good starts in a getaway car, which is what makes it so powerful. She's being casual, saying, oh, no, nothing good starts in a getaway car.

B (34:39)

Now, the next line. This is the line that really got me thinking a lot. The next line is, it was the best of times, it was the worst of crimes.

A (34:50)

That was the line that bothered you, that you had to keep listening.

B (34:52)

Well, that line is intended by Taylor.

A (34:55)

Sure.

B (34:55)

To bother me. Because it is, of course, to bother you specifically. To bother me specifically. She wrote it specifically for me. For you or anybody who is aware that that's an allusion to one of the most famous. Maybe if you listed the top 10 most famous openings to any classic book.

A (35:11)

Yes. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was.

B (35:15)

The age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness. Right. This is a Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens. Right. Not a casual illusion. Right. She knows everybody. I'm not everybody, but I think she knows most of most people know that she's doing that. But she twists the worst of times into the worst of crimes.

A (35:34)

Yeah.

B (35:35)

All right, so that's pretty significant. She's saying something special about this is the worst of crimes. Worst of crimes. All right, so you tell me what happens in this song. How does it end?

A (35:46)

Well, as we've already established, nothing good starts in a getaway car. And it ends, obviously, with her dumping the dude that, you know, she picked up after dumping another dude and they ran away together. And surprise, she runs away at the end. That is, of course, the worst of crimes.

B (36:08)

Now, here's the interesting thing. It wasn't. She didn't pick him up.

A (36:12)

No.

B (36:12)

In the getaway car.

A (36:13)

He picked her up.

B (36:14)

He picked her up?

A (36:15)

Yeah. You were driving the getaway car.

B (36:17)

We were flying, but we'd never get far. Don't pretend it's such a mystery. Think about the place where you first met me. So she's telling the guy that you shouldn't be surprised that I'm dumping you and leaving in a getaway car because that's where we met. Right. That's the point of this foreshadow. This is a circular story for her. She leaves guy number one because this other guy swoops her away in the getaway car where nothing good starts.

A (36:52)

Nothing good starts.

B (36:53)

And Guess what? That whole relationship she talks about in the song, it's just a whole crash and burn.

A (36:58)

It's. Yeah. Getaway cars upon getaway cars an inception.

B (37:01)

Of getaway cars and the guy shouldn't be surprised. Hey, you stole me from another guy. So the fact that I stole myself away, or maybe there's a third guy we don't know about. Just ambiguous. But if you watch the music video, she's driving the car, so you know, she's in control. But the point is. Yes. Now let's get back to the original foreshadow. Yes, it was the worst of crimes. So what is the worst of crimes?

A (37:33)

Genocide.

B (37:34)

We've been through this in the song. What is the worst of crimes that she commits in the song? Betrayal.

A (37:44)

Oh, yeah, that's pretty bad.

B (37:46)

We were jet set Bonnie and Clyde Until I switched to the other side to the other side. It's no surprise I turned you in because us traitors never win. Right? So she's saying she's a traitor. Traitors don't end well either. But here's the very interesting thing. Here's the very interesting thing. Is being a traitor the worst of crimes?

A (38:13)

I mean, I again think genocide is probably the worst of crimes.

B (38:17)

Right, I understand. You do? But interestingly, in Dante's Inferno.

A (38:23)

Sure, sure.

B (38:25)

The ninth circle of hell.

A (38:27)

Yeah.

B (38:27)

The worst place you can be.

A (38:29)

It was for. Right. Liars and betrayers and traitors and in.

B (38:32)

Fact, the inner circle, the very, very worst place is Judas, Brutus and Cassius. Brutus. Famously. Brutus. Cassius famously killed Caesar. Brutus was Caesar's best friend. That was betrayal. And of course, we all know what Judas did. Right. So in Dante, for those of you.

A (38:49)

Who don't know, of course he was the person who sold out Jesus Christ, just in case you did.

B (38:53)

Judas is scary. Yes.

A (38:54)

Yeah.

B (38:55)

I think they knew. I think they knew.

A (38:57)

Some people don't know. It was a long time ago.

B (39:00)

Do you think any of our listeners don't know who Judas is?

A (39:03)

Some of them. Some of them probably think it's the Lady Gaga. Lady Gaga. Well, possibly Lady Gaga mentioned.

B (39:09)

The point is that this betrayal can send you to hell. And now let's go back and make one little connection. This is one of those connections that I always never am 100% sure Taylor did, but I think she probably did because if you go back to. It was.

A (39:33)

Well, and that's part of what analyzing these songs is. We obviously can't talk to Taylor Swift. Be great if we could hit us up.

B (39:41)

Taylor can call in.

A (39:42)

She can call in anytime, anytime. She can hit our phones, hit our lines, talk to our people, please. But, but that's part of what it is. Since we can't do that, you know, we're. This isn't, you know, just conjecture. This is, this is educated, you know, based on our knowledge of, of the literature of our time. But, but of course, all analysis of all literature is subjective.

B (40:06)

Well. And sometimes people, great writers, put things in. Maybe they weren't even fully conscious of themselves, but they're so great, great that their mind unconscious put it in.

A (40:15)

Right.

B (40:15)

Now, my basic view, covertly we shake. And I, as I said, I've called, you know, Taylor modern day Shakespeare. I think it's a good bet if you see something, if you figure out something clever that's in a Shakespeare play. Yeah, he probably put it in there, right? Yeah, probably.

A (40:30)

I mean, by the, by the time he got to his later plays, especially like the Tempest, you know, stuff like that.

B (40:34)

Well, and your hamlets and that sort of thing.

A (40:36)

Yeah.

B (40:37)

So the question is, if we go back to. It's the best of times, it was worst of times, it was the age of wisdom with the age of foolishness skipping ahead. We were all going direct to heaven. We were all going direct the other way. So Taylor is putting in. She's referring to a famous quote which talks about going to hell.

A (41:04)

Right.

B (41:04)

In the bad scenario.

A (41:06)

Yeah.

B (41:06)

This song is her bad scenario.

A (41:09)

Yes.

B (41:09)

She becomes a traitor. Traitors go to hell.

A (41:12)

Sure.

B (41:13)

And she made a reference. So was this intentional on her part?

A (41:17)

I mean, I think, I think it's easy to kind of write a song that if you want to start out with, you know, talking about betrayals and stuff. It was the best of times, it was the worst of crimes. You know, it's a good lyric to go with, but I. I don't think it's a coincidence that in the book, in Charles Dickens Tale of Two Cities, he talks about betrayal and going to hell. I think those are two natural connections that, you know, one can make, you know, if you're a great writer, you're talking about the best of times, the worst of times. I think going to hell is natural in both scenarios. So I think both writers were doing kind of a similar thing. Honestly. They were. They were leading themselves to the logical conclusion of their points. Right.

B (41:56)

Yeah. And let's leap to Bonnie and Clyde.

A (41:59)

Bonnie and Clyde again, at the bridge of the song. At the bridge of the song, Bonnie and Clyde.

B (42:04)

She is comparing her and the guy to Bonnie and Clyde.

A (42:08)

To Bonnie and Clyde.

B (42:09)

Right now, again probably not a casual reference because she doesn't.

A (42:15)

She does not seem to do that.

B (42:16)

She doesn't seem to.

A (42:17)

It's not very casual with her.

B (42:18)

So Bonnie and Clyde, perhaps the most famous. A rogue outlaw couple, certainly in American mythology.

A (42:29)

Yes.

B (42:29)

And it's not even mythology. It actually happened. And of course, sure, they did dial die. There's a famous movie everyone should see. It was a very influential movie called Bonnie and Clyde. And they all. They die in hail of both bullets, right? It's not. I mean, they each end up with like 50 bullets in their heads. Because Bonnie Tiger Waring. Bonnie Parker was not the violent criminal here.

A (42:54)

Yeah.

B (42:54)

Clyde Barrow, he. Clyde just killed a lot of people. And now, here's an interesting point. Bonnie Parker was a poet.

A (43:06)

That is interesting.

B (43:07)

And she published poetry. And she. In fact, when she was young, as I looked it up in school, Bonnie liked to make up songs and stories. She liked to write poems. She even wrote a poem before her death, an autobiographical poem in which she said, called the End of the Line. They don't think they're too smart or desperate. They know the law always wins. They've been shot at before. They do not ignore the death is the wages of sin. So very simple poetry. But the point is, is it a coincidence that Taylor is referencing Bonnie and Clyde and she's. Bonnie And Bonnie happens to be a published poet. Storyteller.

A (43:50)

I don't think so.

B (43:51)

No, I don't think so either. Now, interestingly, the last point is that Bonnie and Clyde die because they get betrayed, right?

A (43:58)

Not by interesting.

B (44:00)

Not by Bonnie.

A (44:00)

I did not know that.

B (44:01)

But one of the gang.

A (44:03)

Interesting.

B (44:03)

By one of the gang, betrays actually the father of one of the gang. But, you know, for me, what's interesting here is that again, she knows. And the other thing, of course, foreshadowing Bonnie and Clyde is they end very poorly.

A (44:22)

Sure.

B (44:22)

But she is twisting the story, right? Because she's saying, well, I'm not gonna end up like Bonnie and Clyde. Right. Because I'm gonna turn on him first.

A (44:30)

Sure.

B (44:31)

And that's what she does. And she ends poorly for her. I mean, it doesn't end well for her. You know, she ends up being a traitor and she ends up, you know, analogizing death, if nothing else. And that's what she does a lot. That's what she does a lot. She. She will. Will foreshadow her own bad ending. Oftentimes, at the very end of the song, she will reference a metaphorical bad ending. Remember, she says the end. I was riding in a getaway car. I was crying in a getaway car. I was dying in a getaway car. Right. So this is the explicit metaphorical ending of death that happens when you start in the getaway car and you commit the worst of crimes.

A (45:28)

Yes. Yes, it is.

B (45:30)

So this is how she writes songs. That's the point wanted to make. And. And this is how we're going to try to look at the songs.

A (45:38)

We are.

B (45:38)

And I think I'm inclined. And you're inclined to generally give her credit.

A (45:43)

Yeah.

B (45:43)

That these things are not accidental. It's not like, oh, I figured this out, but Taylor didn't know it. That's.

A (45:48)

Well, if they're, you know, accidental.

B (45:50)

Yeah.

A (45:50)

Pretty, you know, damn lucky accident.

B (45:52)

Yeah. And. And I, as I said, oftentimes. Yeah. Said here. Right. It's always possible. Certainly I can write stuff. I'm not Taylor or Shakespeare, but I can write stuff and then go back and say, oh, well, that was better writing than I thought when I wrote it.

A (46:06)

Right.

B (46:07)

But that's.

A (46:07)

That's part of what writing is. It's part of what makes it artist. Part of it is the subconscious you're tapping into your, you know, innate ability to recognize patterns. If you notice a pattern, you know, between Bonnie and Clyde or something, you put it in a song. You know, just so happens that that might be a better pattern than you consciously thought.

B (46:25)

Well, and I would go further since I learned, helping to raise you, that you were. You watch stories. The same. You've heard hundreds, thousands of stories.

A (46:37)

So many stories.

B (46:38)

Right. And these are all the same hero's journey stories. Harry Potter or whatever, you know, and.

A (46:43)

Yes, I love Harry Potter. The point is, don't love J.K. rowling right now. Can't lie.

B (46:48)

Understood. The point is that we from a. Before we could even consciously remember, our entire perspective on the world is drummed into us by these thousands of stories, some of which you would watch the Same Story movie 10, 20 times in a row.

A (47:11)

Yeah, I watched the first Harry Potter movie 15 times. I think at least that's a lot. Yeah.

B (47:16)

And.

A (47:17)

Well, I still did it. I feel like. I think I have most of Community, the TV show that everybody should watch. I think I have most of that memorized. I can't lie.

B (47:26)

Well, and we get to show, like, Community. It's all about irony.

A (47:29)

It's all about irony.

B (47:30)

Sort of all about irony. A lot of modern American shows.

A (47:34)

Yeah.

B (47:34)

Sitcoms, especially your Seinfeld, your Simpsons. Yeah.

A (47:38)

Well, curb your enthusiasm is better.

B (47:42)

But the point is that. Yes. We don't even know how Deeply imbued. This Hero's Journey story is in us. And of course, Joseph Campbell famously, he wrote the Hero with a Thousand Faces. He basically showed that all of the great monomyths, all the great heroic myths in every culture, whether it's Native Americans, whether it's the Nordic, whether it's Middle Eastern, South America, whatever it is Asian, they all have this similar journey.

A (48:13)

They do.

B (48:13)

And we will be getting into that journey over the course of the episode.

A (48:18)

Over the course of the next. Yeah, over the course of.

B (48:20)

Yes, over the course of the next several episodes.

A (48:23)

Well, we're going to devote an entire episode to the Hero's Journey, because that is how important it is.

B (48:27)

Well. And she wrote a whole song called Anti Hero.

A (48:29)

Sure.

B (48:30)

So I will say that her mastery of the Hero's Journey and the Anti Hero's Journey, because a lot of her songs are not Hero's Journey. They're crash and burn stories.

A (48:39)

Yeah.

B (48:39)

She starts out feeling good. She ends up feeling bad rather than, you know.

A (48:44)

And she does it all over again.

B (48:46)

She does it all over again.

A (48:47)

Three. Three new songs, four new albums.

B (48:51)

And so I think this comes to the point where we are this final. Yeah, I think we're done for.

A (49:02)

We're done. Well, this wouldn't be much of a storytelling course. Course. We didn't leave you guys with some homework. So my homework to you guys is whenever you're reading a book, if you still do that anymore. I know I don't. If you're watching a TikTok, you're scrolling on Instagram. Anything you read in the news, anything that you do with another person, look for signs of foreshadowing the next time you're looking at anything remotely related to stories.

B (49:28)

And I'm gonna say, since we're gonna keep coming back to. All too well.

A (49:32)

Right.

B (49:33)

And I think we'll maybe discuss this in the next episode.

A (49:36)

Stay tuned.

B (49:37)

What is the mystery scarf? The one that's so famous Saturday Night Live made a joke about it. The one that she left behind at this guy's boyfriend's sister's house.

A (49:47)

I know.

B (49:48)

And could never get it back.

A (49:49)

Could never get it back. I mean, realistically, you can just ask for it back.

B (49:53)

So look for the foreshadow and we'll talk about it next time.

A (49:57)

We'll talk about it next time. Thank you so much.

B (49:59)

Thank you.

A (49:59)

Have a wonderful dang day or night, depending on when you listen to this.