What the Stunning Meaning of ‘Cardigan’ and ‘Folklore’ Foreshadows for Her New Album | #13

Summary

---

Podcast Episode Summary

Decoding Taylor Swift: A Storytelling Revolution

Episode #13: What the Stunning Meaning of ‘Cardigan’ and ‘Folklore’ Foreshadows for Her New Album
Hosts: Joe Romm & Toni Romm
Date: September 23, 2025

---

Overview

In this episode, Joe and Toni Romm delve deep into Taylor Swift’s song “Cardigan” and its pivotal role in the interconnected storytelling of the Folklore album. They analyze the lyrics, uncovering personal and universal psychological themes, while also foreshadowing what these narrative strategies might tell us about Taylor's upcoming album, Life of a Showgirl. The episode also touches on Taylor's recent engagement to Travis Kelce and how her personal evolution might inform her art.

The duo uses a mix of humor, vulnerability, and analytical rigor, aiming to empower listeners to become more effective storytellers by decoding Swift’s masterful songwriting techniques.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Taylor Swift’s Engagement as Context

• The episode begins with reflections on Taylor's engagement to Travis Kelce, noting how their relationship has developed and what it signifies personally and narratively for Taylor.

  “...once she went on this podcast. Yeah, that was an inner tool.” – Joe (01:14)

2. The Folklore Era & Storytelling Evolution

• Discussion about Swift’s collaboration with Max Martin and Shellback, and Max’s appreciation of the storytelling on Folklore.
• Unique feature: The songs talk to each other, some directly, forming a love-triangle narrative Swift has confirmed.

  “Now, the unique thing about Folklore compared to previous albums is that the songs talk to each other.” – Joe (03:33)
  “...there's a teenage love triangle...” – Joe (03:53)

3. “Cardigan”: Line-by-Line Exploration

• Song Structure and Imagery

  • Dissects the narrative voice—Betty, 20–30 years after a foundational romantic betrayal.
  • Lyrics juxtapose youthful innocence and adult experience:

    "Vintage tee, brand new phone, high heels on cobblestones. When you are young they assume you know nothing..." – Taylor’s lyrics (10:06 ff)

  • The hosts unpack the psychological tension created by this contrast.

    “She’s creating some tension. There’s the vintage tee which is old. Then there’s the brand new phone, but then there’s the high heels on cobblestones now.” – Joe (12:34)

• Power and Objectification

  • Analysis of the sexual and emotional dynamics:

    “...he looks at her like an object that he—a discarded object.” – Joe (20:46)

  • Explores the motif that Betty is treated as a favorite, not an only; how this foreshadows repeated cycles in unhealthy relationships.

    “You want to be their only. You don’t want to be your favorite girl.” – Joe (21:41)

• Aristotle Reference and Friendship

  • Swift’s use of “A friend to all is a friend to none” frames the exclusivity (or lack thereof) in both friendship and love.

    “Pointing out that friendship only means something if there’s some discrimination. If you’re friends to every single person… your friendship is meaningless.” – Joe (22:42)

• The Love Triangle and Cheating

  • Lyrics reveal the betrayal at the core of the story:

    “Chase two girls, lose the one…” – Taylor’s lyrics (24:01)

  • The hosts connect this to themes of forgiveness, trauma, and the impact of parental divorce on relationship choices.

    “...people with parental issues surrounding stuff like that are more likely to go for bad men. Not to be Freud.” – Toni (06:40)

4. Layers of Meaning & Literary Devices

• Irony & Foreshadowing

  • The hosts discuss that Swift layers multiple narrative tools—a song isn’t just foreshadowing or symbolic, it’s “all of these strategies” in combination (09:32).

• Metaphors and Symbolism

  • The “cardigan” serves as a rich metaphor—comfort and discarding; being taken for granted and then reclaimed.

    “When I felt like an old cardigan under someone's bed, you put me on and said I was your favorite…” – Taylor’s lyrics
    “...to be discarded or to be put on, you have to be discarded a. And to be put on… it implies that you're being shown around.” – Toni (21:24)

• Repetition and Change in Phrasing

  • Toni points out the importance in the way Swift repeats (or subtly shifts) central lines, signaling character growth or narrative irony.

• Fairy Tale Allusions

  • “Tried to change the ending, Peter losing Wendy...” sparks a debate on the narrative frame and perspective, critiqued for its subtle justification of the boy’s actions.

    “She's being sympathetic to him... That's the nature of this relationship.” – Joe (32:13)

5. Psychological Depth & Universal Resonance

• The trauma of being left—by lovers and by parents—frames many women’s relationship expectations.
• Exploration of why people stay in unhealthy cycles, why “coming back” can be mistaken for love.

  “You don’t really wear a cardigan in the summer, do you? Whoa. It’s a horrible thing.” – Joe (37:32)

6. Anticipating the New Album: Lessons from Folklore

• Cardigan and its parent album prefigure Taylor’s next project—expectations for sophisticated narrative interplay and emotional depth in Life of a Showgirl.
• Speculation on singles, potential collaborations (e.g., with Sabrina Carpenter), and business strategy.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On narrative sophistication:

  "You don’t just use foreshadow. There’d be no point in foreshadow if you don’t have sort of an ironic twist of some sort.” – Joe (09:32)

• On heartbreak and self-worth:

  “You want to be their only. You don’t want to be your favorite girl.” – Joe (21:41)

• On symbolic language:

  “When you run like water, the water really never disappears… so you’re never gone, right?” – Toni (07:53)

• On Taylor’s empathy in writing:

  “It kind of explores Taylor’s genius that she’s able to delve into these Psychological Personas that she doesn’t even… really know.” – Toni (40:36)

• On the artist's intent vs. listeners' interpretation:

  “Does the author’s opinion matter?... If they created the media, I feel like the artists… their opinions seep through into their work.” – Toni (39:36–39:40)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:02–01:26: Taylor and Travis's engagement discussed
• 03:33–04:09: Storytelling on Folklore and the love triangle
• 10:06–10:54: Breaking down the opening lyrics of “Cardigan”
• 12:34–13:30: Tension in imagery—innocence vs. adult world
• 21:41–22:13: The significance of being someone's “favorite”
• 22:40–24:01: Aristotle’s quote and its implications in relationships
• 31:10–32:13: The “Peter losing Wendy” metaphor unpacked
• 37:32–38:06: Analysis of the “cardigan” as seasonal metaphor and its double meaning ("putting me on")

---

Closing Thoughts

The Romms make a compelling case for why Taylor Swift's storytelling—especially in songs like "Cardigan"—should matter to anyone interested in the art of communication and meaningful narrative. By mapping out the layers of meaning and examining personal and literary allusions, they reveal how Swift turns heartbreak and regret into universal lessons. They close with speculation and excitement for Life of a Showgirl, suggesting that Swift’s tradition of interwoven stories and emotional intelligence will continue to evolve.

---

Final Takeaway:
To become a great storyteller, absorb how Taylor Swift combines detail, metaphor, self-awareness, and irony. Use these same techniques in your own work—whether for personal growth, mission-driven communication, or just creating something that truly resonates.

---

Memorable sign-off:

“…If a man tries to come back and he’s cheated on you, say no.” – Toni (46:01)
“Just say no.” – Joe (46:02)

Ciao!

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Joe Rome.

[B]

And I'm his daughter Toni.

[A]

Welcome to Decoding Taylor Swift, where you'll learn the storytelling tools Swift uses that make her a modern day Shakespeare, but.

[B]

Can make you a better communicator so you can drive your mission and build your tribe. Buongiorno. Eh, bienvenuto.

[A]

Welcome. Welcome to episode 1313. Main thing we are going to talk today about is Cardigan and anticip life of a showgirl anticipating.

[B]

Yes, we are. Because Max Martin and Shel Bach said he liked the storytelling folklore.

[A]

And this is our first podcast since Taylor got engaged.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

We're a little lagging here, but episodes previously. You've heard us talk about the podcast with Taylor and Travis Kelce.

[B]

Yes, it's true. With the podcast now she's.

[A]

Now they've officially announced their engagement. I would say anyone who listened to the podcast probably knew.

[B]

Well, yeah, I mean, I feel you said on the walkover there was like, all right, they're pretty much already committed once she went on this podcast.

[A]

Yeah, that was an inner tool.

[B]

You never know. I feel like there are like levels to relationships in the level, like maybe right before engagement, like maybe not necessarily engagement is going on your partner's podcast.

[A]

Well, I think they had gotten engaged before though, probably so. I mean, they've clearly talked about it. And one thing I want to say.

[B]

I wonder what level of friendship you have to have with somebody to go on their podcast. Because I know there's like picking somebody up from the airport. That's the famous one. And then maybe feeding their cats. Maybe podcast is right after that. You go on their podcast.

[A]

You pawed the cats.

[B]

It's worse than podcast.

[A]

Podcasts. Podcast.

[B]

I'm doing a claw motion with his hand. I'm going to choose to ignore the fact that my dad is becoming a furry and just say I feel like for men I'd have to be like really good friends with them to go on their podcast. But for a woman, I would do it before I fed their pets while they were away. If they live far away.

[A]

Well, this is all very actionable things for our listeners. And one thing I want to say here is today we are going to mostly talk about Cardigan.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And folklore, because we are. This is the lead up.

[B]

Oh, yeah. But you could also say that a friend to all is a friend to none. So I feel like, you know, all these levels of friendship really makes me call forward.

[A]

That's a call forward to Cardigan.

[B]

Hell yeah, man.

[A]

But yes.

[B]

Can I have a high five? Let's get it right near the mic. Right near the mic. Are you getting this? He got it.

[A]

There we go. All five. That's a five banger there.

[B]

Really? We should do 13, but I think that would start to sound a little odd.

[A]

Yes. So October 3rd, she is dropping Yas Queen the 10.

[B]

3. Important to note, right?

[A]

She is dropping 12 bangers that are gonna be done with Max Martin and Shellbach. Right.

[B]

Not to be confused with Drake. She.

[A]

We learned on the podcast with her now fiance.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

That she had gone to Max Martin and told Max Martin she wanted this album to be the equivalent of the Eras tour.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And he said, well. Oh, no pressure, but that he likes.

[B]

Actually, he said no pressure because he's Swedish.

[A]

Ah, very good.

[B]

Yeah, you're welcome.

[A]

And he said that he. But he liked the storytelling on folklore.

[B]

Yes, he did.

[A]

Now, the unique thing about Folklore compared to previous albums is that the songs talk to each other.

[B]

Right. And many, many songs at once. And it's a kind of hard to tell which ones are exactly part of the story sometimes.

[A]

Right. And you know, online there are people who.

[B]

There's at least four, in my opinion.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it's very clear that there's a. There's a. There's a love. Teenage love triangle. Which she even said when she dropped the album, there's a teenage love triangle.

[B]

So in the end, it really was all about teenage sex.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

I'm bringing it back all the way to the second episode. Guys, give it a listen. If you want to hear me being traumatized on live podcast Vision.

[A]

Well, that's. That's. This is. Look, Taylor writes about her trauma, and someday when you write a song, you can write about the trauma.

[B]

This podcast, that's actually a good idea. Yeah, this is a pretty traumatizing experience for me.

[A]

And the beauty is you have all these things you can sample. I feel like you've never truly extract samples from this.

[B]

Well, you've never really left childhood until you hear your father talking about teenage sex in the middle of a podcast.

[A]

Well, you're.

[B]

I really felt like a part of me died that day.

[A]

Well, you've been reborn. This is hero's journey.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

You have to die in order to be reborn.

[B]

I think that part of me is just gone.

[A]

Well, now you're an adult. You're 18.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Maybe this is a rite of passage.

[B]

I can't even drink, but I can fight and die for this country.

[A]

I can't even, you know, drink.

[B]

Drink away whatever the hell you were thinking.

[A]

You can't drink. I'm sorry. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're. You're 18.

[B]

Can't even do water at this point.

[A]

Let's. Do you want to play a little bit of cardigan?

[B]

Yeah, let's play a little bit.

[A]

Let's play a little bit of cardigan. And here we go. Let's do it.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Important note. My dad has unfortunately not left me, so I cannot relate to that lyric.

[A]

Well, that lyric has a whole. This is. This song is loaded.

[B]

Well, interestingly enough, Taylor Swift and I have one. One amazing thing in common, which is that our parents are both divorced and.

[A]

Well, that's so unique. I think you are the only two.

[B]

I think so.

[A]

Are the only two. And I hope you have been able to bond with her.

[B]

We really have. Yeah. I reach out to her on her DMs. She never responds. But I. It's mostly just said she has a.

[A]

Hundred million DMs that she's never responded.

[B]

Yeah, but she doesn't have any. About how sad people are about their parents divorce, I'm sure. No, no, never that. But it's interesting because her father didn't really leave her. I mean, well, no, no, no.

[A]

Again, this song. Well, look, this is a fictional trilogy.

[B]

Of love triangle and it's important psychological building for the character Betty, which is like, why are you going back to this dude who cheated on you and kind of really never even told you that he loved you? Even in the song where he was like, I miss you, come back to me. He never says, like, I love you once. But it's important to note maybe her father did leave her in a of. People with parental issues surrounding stuff like that are more likely to go for bad men. Not to be Freud. Not to be Freud. I know he's a little bit of a pseudoscientist.

[A]

The fact that, look, we're gonna start over at the beginning shortly. But the point is, when she says leaving like a father, running like water, I mean, clearly she's setting up the psychological profile of Betty.

[B]

Right, that's what I'm saying. So you're just repeating exactly what I'm saying just because I'm a woman. It needs repeating just in case people didn't get it the first time. Just in case my voice is grating and too high pitched sometimes. I'm done with you. Whatever. Anyway, running like water could mean a few things. It could mean diarrhea or it could mean that the father is running away. Which do we think?

[A]

Well, also running like water, running like Water in a river or running like water in a faucet where you turn it off and it stops running, but then you turn it on and it starts running water.

[B]

I think the most important thing is that when you run like water, the water really never disappears. It's just more water that keeps coming. So you're never gone. Right. When you run like water.

[A]

So let's, let's, let's. What we're gonna focus on here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think we'll come back to the engagement at the end.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So definitely want to stick around for the ending.

[B]

Stick around for the ending. Don't skip. Because everything. We're only gonna talk in terms of callbacks. So you won't be able to make sense of the engagement talk if you don't listen to whole. The whole episode.

[A]

Well, and one thing we wanted to say is we're kind of going to change up the format now.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Kind of last episode, we started that with a little bit because we kind of started and just did shake it off.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that seemed to go well. And I think that you could say.

[B]

We shook off our old formula.

[A]

We. You could say that.

[B]

You could say that. Yeah.

[A]

First of all, everyone out there, you know, we are trying to use Taylor Swift's lyrics to help people become better storytellers.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And I would say the first, you know, 10 or 11 episodes that set up a lot of key things. Like episode one is about foreshadow. Right. And we have an episode about the hero's journey. We have an episode about irony. So you should go back and listen to those. If you. All of those guys just showed up now.

[B]

Yeah, man.

[A]

But we're not gonna repeat that. Right. So if you want to get into.

[B]

You don't have to. A simple 5 star rating would do.

[A]

There you go.

[B]

Or tell your friends.

[A]

Tell your friends.

[B]

For every episode that you don't watch, you tell a friend. How about that? I feel like that's fair.

[A]

So what we're gonna mainly do.

[B]

Or give us money. Yeah.

[A]

Is pick a song that we think is relevant. In this case, we want to pick song that is very relevant.

[B]

Cardigan. For the upcoming album.

[A]

From the upcoming album. And then we're gonna go through it and we're gonna show how she combines all of these strategies. Right. Cause you don't just use one of these. Right. You don't just use foreshadow. There'd be no point in foreshadow if you don't have sort of an ironic twist of some sort.

[B]

Kind of a cool Irony twist.

[A]

So let's dive into this. Let's dive into the song. And it starts out, vintage tea, brand new phone, high heels on cobblestones.

[B]

You have to really say that like you hear the click clacking.

[A]

You can. Do you want to do a click clack clink?

[B]

No, no, no, no.

[A]

High heels.

[B]

Well, what do you think of when you think of a vintage tee, Joe?

[A]

A vintage T shirt.

[B]

Yeah. What do you think of?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I think summers with your family in the Berkshires. Well, you never went to the Berkshires. What are the things you had?

[A]

The Catskills might be like the Beatles T shirt.

[B]

Like your Beatles. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Which I don't have.

[B]

Okay, well, utilize the love that you would have if you had a vintage Beatles T shirt. And then take the line again.

[A]

Vintage tee, brand new phone, High heels on cobblestones. When you are young they assume you know nothing. Sequined smile, black lipstick, Sensual politics. When you are young they assume you know nothing.

[B]

That was beautiful.

[A]

Okay, so that sets up a very. So I really felt that I would say this song. Her use of words in this song are as fine. The lyrics in this song are as well thought out as any song she's written. And to be clear, this is Folklore.

[B]

Right.

[A]

This is the second song on Folklore.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Now, after the one.

[A]

After the one.

[B]

Which is the first song.

[A]

Which is the first song.

[B]

Be kind of weird if that was.

[A]

The second is the one. The second song is Cardigan, which is the. We learn. We don't know when we're first listening to it unless we remember. Taylor said that when the album dropped. Number two is the love. The teenage love triangle told from the perspective of Betty.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

20 to 30 years later.

[B]

Yeah. She said it was 20 to 30 years later after the incident where her shithead boyfriend cheated on her.

[A]

Right. And so there's a. There's a Disney film called what? The Long Pond Sessions.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

In which she sings the songs, but also talks about them with what? Destner and Max.

[B]

What's his face? No, no, no. Another face. Jack.

[A]

Jack Antonoff. And Right. And one of the things she says is this song, which I think is kind of obvious when you go through it, is from someone much older.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. And the fact that she says when you are young, they assume you know nothing. It sounds like she's talking about. She's later talking about when she was young. Right, right. The key point here is in these opening lyrics, there's some. She's creating some tension. There's the vintage tee which is old. Then there's the brand new phone, but then there's the high heels on cobblestones now.

[B]

Well, I think what it's doing, in my mind, it's always been comparing things that, you know, some sometimes are seen as more adult to things that are seen as more childish, showing that. That children can make sense of the adult world by using the things that they already know to relate to them. Right. Like sensual politics. Right. Like there are politics of friendship. That's how you get accustomed to thinking about politics, usually. Right. Like whenever you're talking about, I don't know, a politician being, I don't know, lying or cheating. Right. Like, a lot of those are kind of reflective of sometimes friendships that you'll have. And then, you know, something like high heels. Right. Very adult, very mature and. But cobblestones usually seen as maybe in a park, Something you're playing in right now.

[A]

We know.

[B]

Anyway, that's my theory. Thank you, guys. Drop a. Like, if you liked it.

[A]

I like the theory. I would just make one point. Walking on cobblestones with high heels is a very delicate thing.

[B]

Right? That's true.

[A]

Yes. And you have to be, you know, I have been with, you know, in New York City and other places, they have cobblestones now.

[B]

He's a New Yorker.

[A]

Yeah. And women generally don't want to walk on cobblestones with high heels unless you're a baddie.

[B]

I would do it.

[A]

I'm just saying this is a little foreshadowing that this relationship is going to.

[B]

Happen in New York.

[A]

It happened in New York, and it's.

[B]

Gonna be a big did, actually. Is that what you think?

[A]

You know?

[B]

Yes, a lot of them do. A lot of her sexuals do take place later.

[A]

He says she talks about your heartbeat on the high line.

[B]

Oh, my God. I never even noticed that.

[A]

So that's capital H, capital L, high line in the lyrics.

[B]

Wow. Right.

[A]

So, yes, this is. The implication is. Yes, this is New York City.

[B]

I always figured this took place in, like a small town in the middle of a forest.

[A]

No, no, no. Not. You know, I think there's.

[B]

I have to add this to my New York playlist.

[A]

If you watch the music video, it takes place. Most of it takes place. She steps in through.

[B]

Could be Central Park.

[A]

She steps into the piano and appears in a woodland.

[B]

Yeah, right.

[A]

And then she steps into the bench.

[B]

Could be the Rambles in Central Park. You never know.

[A]

But I think the key point is that she is saying this is going to. This relationship is gonna be like high heels on cobblestones. But the key line, when you are young, they assume you know nothing. So it's like she's being treated like she's immature.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

And you get the impression, however, that this.

[B]

While also perhaps being gaslit. Right. By this guy, to say that it's not really a big deal or by people around her. And ostensibly is what Taylor says, that they. They chose to stay together. Right. That. I mean, she explicitly says, in my mind, they stay together. And whether.

[A]

Well, she says they get together. I don't know.

[B]

She says they stay together. They've been together for, like, 30 years.

[A]

Oh, I don't think so.

[B]

Yes, I think so. I think so.

[A]

We'll have to go.

[B]

We have a connection because our parents are both divorced. So I think I know her better anyway, the point is, is that they stayed together.

[A]

My parents were both divorced.

[B]

Okay. But they got divorced, like, way later.

[A]

That's true.

[B]

So you're like. You're like. You basically don't count as a divorced child. Like a child of divorce. You're like a young adult of divorce.

[A]

I feel I'm being silenced.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I feel my experience.

[B]

Well, that's because you don't have enough trauma.

[A]

This is traumatic to me now. Can I write a song about it?

[B]

Okay, well, whatever. This is why people call men sensitive. I just like to say that.

[A]

Well, we're gonna come back to this line because she is gonna do a twist on the line. And as she often does, these opening words are one that are gonna carry a lot of meaning.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

The sensual politics is very important, though, because that's a very unusual. It's quite different from the other words here. Right. Black lipstick is concrete. Sequined smile, high heels, cobblestones phone, vintage tea. But sensual politics is an abstract concept.

[B]

I think I already said my opinions on it and it's like your thing, if you don't wanna listen to that. But.

[A]

No, no, I'm just saying central politics to me is not the same as friend politics. It's the sexual.

[B]

Well, I was saying friend because you know what? I appreciate being PG&G and even a little bit PG13, but if you want to run around talking about strippers and prostitutes and vagina sex, that can be your thing. I, for the children, am trying to be family friendly. So when I say friendships, just assume that I mean violent sex, I guess.

[A]

Okay. You just have dropped so many F bombs on this podcast. I never really have viewed that, but.

[B]

I was trying my best. You brought it there. I just want to say that you brought it there.

[A]

I did because of the next lyrics. But I knew you. This is. The first lines are kind of. She's done doing kind of sing talking. And then she gets into the nice melody, which I wish my daughter would sing for you because I heard her sing.

[B]

Oh, that's beautiful.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm just saying. I don't know.

[A]

But I knew you Dancing in your Levi's, drunk under a street light.

[B]

Take that line again.

[A]

But I knew you dancing in your Levi's, drunk under a street light. I. I knew you. Hand under my sweatshirt. Baby, kiss it better.

[B]

I'm dead already. I'm dead. Another part of me just died.

[A]

And when I felt like an old cardigan under someone's bed, you put me on and said I was your favorite.

[B]

That's beautiful.

[A]

Okay, so this is the sexual politics, the sensual politics. Okay.

[B]

The friendship.

[A]

So first of all, we start out, he's dancing in the Levi's. Dancing in your Levi's. Drunk under a streetlight. Okay, so not grade A.

[B]

Well, the reason I said that before is because a lot of the power dynamics in a sexual relationship are the same as power dynamics that you'll often see in politics. Right.

[A]

Well, look, let's get to the next line. I knew you Hand under my sweatshirt. Okay. I think, you know, she's. That's pretty overt for Taylor.

[B]

He was just turning the tag inside out. Cause the tag was sticking out. He was just kind of going like, ah. He was being nice.

[A]

I see now. Baby, kiss it better.

[B]

Because he was like, once he turned the tag inside out, he was like, oh, no, the tag's like now on the one sense. So he kissed it a little bit.

[A]

Kiss it better is often an expression used of like, oh, you know, you got a boo boo when you're young and you get your mommy to kiss it better for you. Right. That's the child's version. The adult version, I would say is of course you can cover your ears in a scene. You who were the lyrics you were rapping right before we started, seem to me were pretty out there.

[B]

No, they weren't.

[A]

Few F bombs in that.

[B]

That's cause Nikki is the queen. She can say whatever she wants. It doesn't matter.

[A]

Well, speaking of Nicky, Kiss it better, of course is a song by Rihanna.

[B]

Why is it. Speaking of Nicki? They're completely different people.

[A]

They are. But the point is, you know that there are other singers who I suppose.

[B]

They'Re both from the Caribbean and they're.

[A]

Both musicians who write dirty stuff. Wow.

[B]

Okay, so now whenever a Woman talks about their sex life, then all of their songs are dirty.

[A]

She just said sensual.

[B]

Taylor Swift talks about dirty stuff.

[A]

She talked about black lipstick and sensual politics.

[B]

And now, I mean, Taylor Swift does talk about dirty stuff.

[A]

Quoting whatever. She has the hand under the sweatshirt, baby, which I think you know what it means. And then kiss it better.

[B]

I have no idea what he's talking about.

[A]

Seems to be a reference to Rihanna because that is a song about her sensual obsession with this guy and how he kisses her in a certain way that she really likes. And I'm gonna leave it at that. And when I felt like I was an old cardigan under someone's bed, you put me on. And I was your favorite. Wow. So this is how the boy looks at her.

[B]

Like an object.

[A]

Like an object that he. A discarded object.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's how she thinks of herself. She thinks of herself.

[B]

Well, of course she thinks.

[A]

When I felt like she's a simile. When I felt like an old cardigan under someone's bed. You put me on and said I was your favorite. Right. This is the key line of the song. Right. This is the title of the song. This is the key line. And she is saying, I felt kind of discarded. People didn't notice me. Right.

[B]

Poor Betty.

[A]

But he noticed her. You put me on and said I was your favorite. It's beautiful, right? It's kind of beautiful, but we'll see that it's not so beautiful.

[B]

Well, I think it's pretty kind of shitty if we're really getting into it, like. Yeah. I mean, it's obviously to be discarded or to be put on. You have to be discarded a. And to be put on. Expl. It implies that you're being shown around. Right.

[A]

Well, and I would say another thing. And said I was your favorite, but you don't want to be someone's favorite. You want to be their only. You don't want to be your favorite girl.

[B]

She did. Wait. Speak on it. Speak on it. King.

[A]

She says. She says I was your favorite. What kind of a thing is that? You would never say that to your girlfriend. Oh, you're my favorite. I don't think that you would not have a girlfriend for very long if you talk to her that way. She is taking this thing is a compliment. It's not a compliment.

[B]

Damn. That's kind of facts, though. Joe Rome is such an. You know what? I take back everything I said. He's an ally to women.

[A]

There you go. Well, look, I just. I listened to this song as I often do, two or Three dozen times. And it's like he's woke.

[B]

He likes women.

[A]

Why is she taking this as a compliment? And then, of course. And the fact that she really does understand this comes from the immediate next line. The minute she says, I was your favorite and said I was your favorite, she says, a friend to all is a friend to none. Aristotle.

[B]

Aristotle.

[A]

Pointing out that friendship only means something if there's some discrimination. If you're friends to every single person.

[B]

Whoa. Yeah.

[A]

Like, then your friendship is meaningless. Oh, this person, my friend. This person, my friend. This person. Well, you're my friend, too. Okay.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

Doesn't really count so much.

[B]

Well, right. I think that is pretty obvious.

[A]

Right. And then she immediately gets into it.

[B]

Well, and Aristotle, famous for his discussions on politics yet again, also talking and relating back to something that children and young people experience. So that's why I think a lot of this language is also chosen to represent the bridge between worlds in the sense that, you know, like young adults and children. Teenagers understand a lot more of, you know, the world than I think a lot of adults would give them credit for, is what she's trying to say.

[A]

Well, high five on that.

[B]

What do you mean, high five on that?

[A]

Well, that's it. Yes. This is a. This is a song.

[B]

That's what I said before. You didn't give me a high five before. Well, maybe I didn't say it clear enough.

[A]

There you go. But I also think this is the moment. This is the moment where. Because the audience doesn't know that this is. That he cheats on her.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Until. Until she says, chase two girls. She says, a friend to all is a friend to none. Chase two girls, lose the one.

[B]

Which is the song. The first song.

[A]

Right. And the first song is titled the what?

[B]

Yeah. And it's probably from the perspective of the girl who is used as the person who he. He cheats with. Yeah.

[A]

And possessive, repeat. So the point is, she's just said, you put me on and said I was your favorite.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Then she says. Then he says, a friend to all is a friend to none. Which is really saying what the point.

[B]

Well, yeah. What you were saying before, like, you can't date two girls and then chase.

[A]

Two girls, lose to one. And then she repeats, when you are young, they assume you know nothing. So she's like you. She is, by the way, the weird thing here.

[B]

Yeah, what's the weird thing, Joe?

[A]

The weird thing is she's talking like the guy himself isn't young. I mean, we learn later the guy's just 17. But when she said, when you were young, they assumed you were. No, nothing. It's kind of weird because first of.

[B]

All, I think another way to interpret that is by saying that this Dude, A lot of men use the excuse that they're young to act like pieces of shit. I'm looking at you guys, all of you. No, no, look, you guys are all on the hook for this.

[A]

Well, that's what I mean.

[B]

But I think what she's saying is that. Is that people assumed that this cheating thing, like all of her friends forgave him, probably. And, you know, the adults around them ostensibly, like, you know, they were like supportive of this relationship because they assume that he's just young and he uses that excuse. I'm only 17. I don't know anything, but I know I miss you. But she clearly knew a lot, right? And that, I think is. I think a big point to make is that clearly he's kind of a shithead guy.

[A]

Yeah, he's not a great guy. But to me, when she says, when you are young, they assume you know, nothing. She's also speaking 20, 30 years later from experience that a lot of people have treated her this way.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

It's not just one guy.

[B]

Not just one guy.

[A]

Not just one guy. So now she goes, not all men.

[B]

But somehow all women.

[A]

And now she's gonna describe how he isn't such a great guy. Cause he says, but I knew you played in hide and seek and giving me your weekends. Oh, so that's a sad face. So he played hide and seek, but not the kids game of hide and seek.

[B]

Well, exactly. But it's another example of contrasting language. Right.

[A]

It's the adult version of hide and seek, where I'm just gonna see you on the weekends.

[B]

I should write an AP lit essay about this. Not even in that classroom.

[A]

Again, not. So the point is just I knew you. Your heartbeat on the high line. This is high line, presumably capital H, capital L. Now there could be a kind of a pun with a high line, which is a tight tightrope, tightrope act, tight wire act. Where you're. In other words, this is like being in high heels on a cobblestone. Being on a high wire. This is kind of a dangerous situation. Once in 20 lifetimes. So she's thinking this is. She considers him the special guy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Obviously he doesn't. He's just her favorite. His favorite. But she, for him, he's once in 20 lifetimes guy, which is a bit different. That's kind of what we're looking for in a relationship.

[B]

Yikes.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Another important thing to note about this engagement is that Taylor Swift said, like, I realized that I was experiencing what I've been writing about for, like, 20 years.

[A]

True.

[B]

I hope that she feels like Travis is the once in 20 lifetime.

[A]

Well, I think so. I hope so. And I think that. Remember when she was 15, right? The song. In the song 15, she doesn't want.

[B]

To date the dude on the football. She's like, there's more important things than dating that you don't have to think.

[A]

It was about dating the guy in the football field.

[B]

I don't know what she says about that now.

[A]

Yeah. Let's finish up the song, go through the song, because we got a long way to go. And then she. She goes. And when I felt like I was an old cardigan under someone's bed, you put me on and said I was your favorite. So now this is getting a bit more meaning to it because the question of we always had to ask, who is someone's bed? She's not usually this vague. Right. She said the life is always under someone's bed. But if you go to, let's say, all too well. Right. Well, I left my scarf there at your sister's house, and you still got it in your drawer even now. But now it's an old cardigan under someone's bed. But I don't think it's under someone's bed. I think it's under his bed. That's where he picks it up from.

[B]

I think that it's also meant to demonstrate, like, the passage of time in this song, right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's on someone's bed. Anyway. Whatever. God forbid a woman becomes intellectual. He says, all right, she's just changing the subject. Whatever. Anyway. Just kissing cars, downtown bars. Take the line.

[A]

How about you take some light?

[B]

Because I think you're a natural actor. I think something in you screams, Screams to be heard, and it's nothing that words can convey. I think it's something that you can only find through acting. Through portraying somebody else is when you can find yourself. And that's beautiful. So why don't you take the line, Joe?

[A]

To kiss in cars and downtown bars was all we needed. You drew stars around my scars, but now I'm bleeding. Just want to make a comment there that apparently this drawing of the stars around her scars wasn't a curative. It was actually reopening.

[B]

It's creating more scars.

[A]

Reopening the old wounds or creating new scars? Yes, Because I knew you stepping on the last Train marked me like a blood stain. So, man, we're getting into the blood here. Very reminiscent of Cruel Summer.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Cut me. If I bleed, you'll be the last to know. She is. She gets cut by her guys.

[B]

And death by a thousand cuts, obviously. Most famous. I don't know why you didn't just go there first. That was kind of a, you know, lack of foresight on your part, or.

[A]

I left it to you.

[B]

I don't think you did that. Keep reading.

[A]

And then we. Then. Now we get to the part we played. I knew you tried to change the ending. Peter losing Wendy. I knew you.

[B]

No, no, no.

[A]

What?

[B]

Peter losing Wendy.

[A]

I. Peter losing Wendy, comma I. Yeah, a lot of these lines end in.

[B]

I, which is important and literary, so you have to do.

[A]

No, I knew you tried to change the ending. Peter losing Wendy. I. Pause. I knew you leaving like a father running like water I. And when you are young they assume you know nothing. Okay, so this is a very big deal, first of all, Peter losing Wendy. Well, it's kind of sort of not quite.

[B]

That's not how. I mean, when he showed that lyric to me, I was like, that's a little suspicious because that's not really how it went. It was kind of Wendy who lost Peter. And as a school. Who actually did Lost Girls as a school play. You guys should look it up. It's just from Wendy's perspective, like 10, like, or two years later or something like that. Anyway, definitely Wendy lost Peter. Peter, like, abandoned her.

[A]

Peter abandoned her.

[B]

I think she's using it. This as a way to kind of justify his behavior kind of psychologically. She's. This is just evidence of how her mind is kind of twisted a lot of their relationships.

[A]

But he. Peter refused to grow up, right? That was the whole point. She wanted to grow up, right?

[B]

So she's speaking from his perspective, saying, well, imagine how he felt. You know, he didn't want to grow up and she did, and so he kind of lost her.

[A]

He wanted her to stay and take care of the Lost Boys, but she didn't want. He was a child. He wanted a mother figure, right? Cause she's like cleaning up, doing the spring cleaning, right? That's what. She ended up coming. That's what is like, oh, come, I'll come back for the spring cleaning. Right? So this whole thing is a very weird analogy or illusion.

[B]

It's especially weird that it's Peter losing Wendy, not Wendy losing Peter, if she's gonna use it at all, right?

[A]

So she's being sympathetic to him to repeat what my daughter said. Yes, Peter, Losing Wendy is a very weird framing.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But a lot of this song is a weird framing where she is being sympathetic to him, even though he's not treating her well. But that's the nature of this relationship. And then leaving like a father. So this is the reveal that her father left her.

[B]

Sad.

[A]

And therefore, she is kind of set up to be expecting guys to leave her.

[B]

Right, Right.

[A]

Which is to say she's.

[B]

What I said at the beginning. I just want to point that out.

[A]

So now she's more appreciative if a guy comes back.

[B]

Yeah. Even though she shouldn't be. It's kind of a little Stockholm.

[A]

Well, particularly because this guy was leaving her during the week.

[B]

I know.

[A]

He kept leaving her during the week, seeing her on the weekend, leaving her during the week, seeing her on the weekend. Right. That's this dynamic of the whole relationship. But because she thinks of herself as an old cardigan, this is a big deal for her.

[B]

And there is a long and storied musical tradition of women talking about being left on the weekends. Notably, the Weeknd by SZA is about this exact same thing. And it just made me think of it because, you know, in the Weeknd by sza, she talks about how she just wants to be with him. She doesn't need much. She just needs the weekends because that's how desperate she is. And I think that the moral of the story here, ladies, is that if a man doesn't want to see you all the time, break up with him and then set fire to his house is what the.

[A]

Well, I think some of that's good advice. I can't really advocate committing a felony where people might get hurt, but. But it's interesting you say set fire to the house because we're gonna get to the next lyrics. But I knew you'd linger like a tattoo kiss I knew you haunt me, Haunt all of my what ifs.

[B]

Can you take the line again?

[A]

I knew you'd linger like a tattoo kiss I knew you'd haul all haunt.

[B]

Can you take that line again?

[A]

No. Haunt all of my what ifs the smell of smoke would hang around this long. Cause I knew everything when I was young Damn. I knew everything when I was young. So she wasn't.

[B]

I really felt that one.

[A]

She was not the naif here. Naif N a I f. She is not the naive one.

[B]

She's talking about some old English. You're a crazy girl.

[A]

But the point is, this is the bombshell. This is the bombshell line. She is building up to one of them. I knew everything when I was young. I knew everything about you. But the point is, not in a good way. In a way of like, I'm putting up with you.

[B]

Aw, right.

[A]

I knew I'd curse you for the longest time. Chasing shadows in the grocery line I knew you'd miss me Once the thrill expired.

[B]

That was the line when I originally listened to it, that I knew that it was probably about August and this song were probably connected because the thrill, Right. This. And obviously Betty is connected to this. But. Yeah, I mean, the thrill of cheating.

[A]

She knew he was cheating, and she knew he was gonna come back when she got bored with this little.

[B]

Which is such a crazy thing to be like, oh, man. And I'm putting up with this guy. I knew he'd come crawling back to me. Usually when that happens, you know, girls are like, yeah, whatever. Like. But it's sad. It's a sad truth.

[A]

And to go into the actual song, Betty. And you'd be standing in my front porch light. And I knew you'd come back to me. You'd come back to me.

[B]

Straight as a banger, guys.

[A]

And you'd come back to me. And you'd come back. Now, I don't know how you read through this, but I don't think this happened.

[B]

Just not as well as you. Not as well as you, man. That was phenomenal.

[A]

It doesn't sound like this happened.

[B]

It was a phenomenal performance. Yeah.

[A]

I knew you'd come back to me.

[B]

It seems like he's keep. He kept. He keeps coming back.

[A]

Right. Which is to say he keeps leaving. That's the point of. I felt like an old cardigan under someone's bed.

[B]

Right. Which is the point of Peter losing Wendy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You'd come back to me because Peter doesn't come back. No, he forgets. He comes back. He's supposed to come back every year.

[B]

Well. And it's the framing, right? She's choosing. It's what she's choosing not to say, which is. And you'd keep leaving. And you'd keep leaving. And you'd keep leaving. She's saying. And you'd come back and you'd come back. She's skipping over the part where he leaves, just like he's skipping over most of the story. And Peter losing Wendy, she's framing it from his perspective to be more sympathetic to him.

[A]

Right. And when we hear the actual song, Betty. It's played as he's the hero.

[B]

Yeah. Right.

[A]

And there's big Cheers from the crowd. Ugh. But in the context of this song, there's not a lot to be cheering about here.

[B]

No, I wouldn't cheer.

[A]

Now we get to the last line, and when I felt like I was an old cardigan under someone's bed, you put me on and said I was your favorite. So we're still in the same place. She still feels like an old cardigan. Why? Cause that's how he treats her. And I will make two points on this.

[B]

Yeah. Make two points, King.

[A]

So it was a summer fling that she ran. That he ran away to.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Okay. Well, the point of the cardigan is. You don't really wear a cardigan in the summer, do you? Whoa. It's a horrible thing.

[B]

That was really crazy.

[A]

And here's the other thing. You put me on and said I was your favorite. Well, to put someone on has two meanings. I mean, has another meaning. If I say, you're putting me on.

[B]

I wouldn't know what that means, because I'm not a boomer.

[A]

You're putting me on means you're lying to me. Oh, this whole thing is a put on.

[B]

It's like saying, you're being saucy with me, aren't you? Right.

[A]

So when she says, see, the audio.

[B]

Engineers don't even know what you're talking about.

[A]

They know what I'm talking about.

[B]

They don't know what you're talking about.

[A]

Yes. If you say you're putting me on, you're not being honest with me. So she knows and said I was your favorite. Sometimes I'm your favorite. Sometimes I'm your favorite. But the whole point is, the favorite implies there's a whole bunch of others. Because you're not my once in 20 lifetimes.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

Which is sad.

[B]

That is sad.

[A]

That's what you want. You want the once in 20 lifetimes. You do not want. Oh, I'm your favorite. You'll come back to me when you're bored of this other. When the thrill is gone with someone else, you'll keep coming back. So.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

It's a very bittersweet song, to say the least. It's a lyrical.

[B]

Notice that girl.

[A]

What? Yeah, it's.

[B]

Damn. Damn, damn, damn. I mean, I knew I wasn't really happy, because feeling. I mean, I knew. Cause you know, when you put on a cardigan, it's like you're wearing somebody and you're not really, you know, loving them. Right. They're not your equal. They're like an object. But damn. I never realized that.

[A]

So if they're still together.

[B]

It's really wise.

[A]

The dynamic hasn't changed. I don't know that they're still together 20, 30 years ago.

[B]

Taylor Swift does. And whenever the artists believe something, usually it seeps into their work. So maybe she's right, maybe I'm right.

[A]

But the artist can also imagine what they think in their head.

[B]

Yeah, but if they created the media, I feel like the artists. This is an interesting philosophical question.

[A]

It is an interesting philosophical question. Does the author's opinion matter?

[B]

I think. Well, it doesn't. I'm not exactly sure about opinion, but their interpretation of their own work, I think that it is worth paying attention to because whenever they're writing, they're the creator, usually a lot of the work. Their opinions seep through into their work, which is why, you know, some parts of Harry Potter a little bit crazy, because J.K. rowling's beliefs are.

[A]

Well, but let me insane get here. Just.

[B]

But there is. There is room for interpreting an artist's, you know, like, interpretations of stuff, but.

[A]

There'S also room for saying, okay, if they're still together, he's still treating her the same exact way.

[B]

Well, of course.

[A]

Yeah. You know, if that's. That's a legitimate interpretation. She's just. 20 years of this crap she puts up with.

[B]

Thank you for censoring yourself. I really felt that.

[A]

There you go. And after we can all agree that when all is said and done, she still thinks of herself as an old cardigan under someone's bed.

[B]

Well.

[A]

And that's not what you want.

[B]

Well, it's fascinating also, and it kind of explores Taylor's geniuses that she's able to delve into these psychologic Personas that Psychological Personas that she doesn't even. She doesn't really know. I mean, I'm assuming that her relationship with Jake Gyllenhaal informed some of this.

[A]

Well, with, you know, John, maybe John Mayer and a whole bunch of other, you know. Well, look, but this gets to.

[B]

He's the mayor of crazy town. I bet.

[A]

Well, and this gets to the question that's raised by the engagement.

[B]

Okay, nobody laughed.

[A]

In my head, she's living happily ever after with him, with Travis. Can she still write songs about the pain happening to her? Well, the answer is she can clearly write the songs about pain happening to other people that are quite popular because this was a number one song. This is, in fact, as in looking this up, this song and album set a record. This is the first time that an album hit number one on its first week of release. And the song in the album hit number one in its first week of release.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

So.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

Props to Taylor.

[B]

Props to Taylor.

[A]

It's interesting that this song. Cause there's a lot of great songs on that album. But, you know, this is a. It's a great song, I think. And, you know, I do think, you know, it will be interesting to see how as she hopefully lives happily ever after.

[B]

Well, of course, as many people have established, happily ever after is only happily because the story stops. Which is interesting because you usually never get to see past the fairy tale. So, I mean, married life is never really easy. I'm sure. As was the case with you. Yeah, he struggled a bit. He got a divorce, but.

[A]

Well, look, there's no good divorce, no matter what anybody says.

[B]

Yeah, you did struggle a bit with married life, but that's okay.

[A]

Hug this.

[B]

It's okay, guys. It's okay. And honestly, I'm interested to see what this is. I guess if people are assuming that she is to live happily ever after, I mean, I feel like I'm interested to see what their married life will actually be like, because I'm not. You know, you never. You should never assume that there's a happily ever after. The story of their life. It's not like they're gonna do a double homicide suicide. That would be crazy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like their lives.

[A]

We can probably eliminate that prospect.

[B]

Who said that?

[A]

All right, don't worry. It's not gonna.

[B]

It's not gonna happen. I'm just saying that their story's not gonna stop, right?

[A]

No, no.

[B]

That's why I think she'll still be able to write songs.

[A]

Yeah. And getting back to the point of why we talked about this, she said in the podcast in New Heights with Travis, that not to be confused with.

[B]

Newest Heights, which is what we are.

[A]

We're newest heights.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

We're newer and newest heights.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

We're both dropping two different podcasts.

[B]

Yes. Newer and newest. We're putting a trademark on both.

[A]

That these 12 songs couldn't have been one more. You couldn't have added one, and you couldn't have taken one away.

[B]

It's interesting, though, that she is such a triskadekophiliac, you'd think that she would put a 13th song on the track, but maybe there's an extra secret hidden. Extra secret mini extra Labubu Matcha Hidden one. That would be pretty cool.

[A]

It would be. She said there wasn't, but, you know, sometimes people like to make even more.

[B]

And when is she gonna release a solo?

[A]

Well, but I just Want to say the following?

[B]

Yeah, whatever. Say your piece, man.

[A]

Well, what we said at the beginning that this song is integrated into a whole album. It talks to and interacts with at least two other songs.

[B]

Well, that's why it's called Folklore. That's why I think the video is so weird, too, because it's not. These aren't supposed to be real people with real stories. It's supposed to be fiction. Right. Just like any piece of folklore in history. Right. It's based on real things, but of course it isn't real. And that's why I don't think this album could exist without this storyline. Right.

[A]

Yeah. Well, and. But the point is, I think that Life of a Showgirl will have interplay between the songs.

[B]

I agree. I agree.

[A]

And we're very excited, and we'll have to figure out what we're gonna do next week, but I think we're still trying to anticipate what's gonna come out on October 3rd.

[B]

I really hope she releases a single because I really hope that she releases a single. That's what my hope is.

[A]

Well, I'm sure she's gonna release Life of a Showgirl with Sabrina Carpenter. Right.

[B]

You think that she's gonna release that as a single?

[A]

Maybe. I'm not. I don't. I mean, she's beyond me.

[B]

Do you think she's gonna do that? What is this? She's gonna probably, maybe do that on September 4th, do you think? Because 10 and. Or 9 and 4.

[A]

Well, she's the business genius, so I'm gonna. Whatever it is, she has it worked out planned out with Shell Bach and Max Martin.

[B]

Not to be confused with Shell Drake. No, no.

[A]

And I think we're kind of wrapping it up here.

[B]

Yeah, we're wrapping it up, man. Anyway, I don't know. Have a super, super, I don't know, lit day. Get totally crunk with your friends, but don't be a friend to all, because a friend to all is a friend at all.

[A]

Do not be a friend to all.

[B]

You can get down, party arty, but don't party too hardy. And if a man tries to come back and he's cheated on you, say no.

[A]

Just say no.

[B]

Just say no.

[A]

All right, ciao.

[B]

Ariva dirchi.