Why Eldest Daughter is NOT about Taylor Swift—and what it really means.

Summary

Decoding Taylor Swift – Episode Summary

Podcast: Decoding Taylor Swift
Episode: Why Eldest Daughter is NOT about Taylor Swift—and what it really means
Hosts: Joe Romm & Toni Romm
Guest: Tyler Foggatt (The New Yorker)
Date: November 11, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into Taylor Swift's song "Eldest Daughter" from her album Life of a Showgirl, exploring why, despite initial impressions, the song isn’t truly autobiographical. The Romms, joined by New Yorker writer and fellow Swiftie Tyler Foggatt, deconstruct the song’s lyrics, discussing the themes of performative identity, internet culture, self-mythology, and what the narrative choices reveal about both the craft of storytelling and the pitfalls of pop culture communication.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why "Eldest Daughter" Is NOT (Fully) About Taylor Swift

• Opening Analysis (00:26-03:58): Joe points out the song feels like Swift but isn’t straightforwardly autobiographical. It's a masterclass in storytelling, especially in the use of the word “but” to introduce conflict—“the most important word in storytelling.” The hosts count 8 “buts” and 11 “ands,” signifying narrative twists.

  • Quote: “But is the most important word in storytelling. And is the one that's mostly overused.” — Joe Romm (00:48)

• Persona vs. Reality (03:58-05:09): Toni and Joe debate if the “cringe” of the opening lines is intentional. Joe posits Swift is cosplaying a social-media persona, not presenting her true self.

  • Quote: “She's portraying a person. It's not her. It's someone who is trying to talk about the Internet, but in a cool way. But who isn't cool.” — Joe (03:48)

2. Cringe or Craft: The First Verse

• Intentional Cringe (05:09-09:41): The first verse is simple, even awkward, a departure from Swift’s characteristic metaphors. Toni finds it “cringe” and overly literal, lacking Swift’s usual poetic vision.
  • Quote: “I think it's just cringe.” — Toni (02:46)
  • Joe elaborates the possible irony: “Terminal uniqueness is from Alcoholics Anonymous... It's a little ironic. She's not bragging.”

3. Masking, Cosplay, and Metafiction

• Self-Mythology (05:09-07:57): Joe suggests that Swift more overtly “cosplays” herself on this album, using lyrics to play a character slightly removed from her real persona. “I've been afflicted by a terminal uniqueness” is less confession, more meta-commentary.

4. Story Structure: The Power of 'But'

• Mechanics of Conflict (03:38-09:15): The centrality of “but” in the lyrics and how it builds tension, and how this device is crucial for narrative dynamism.

5. Is the Song Too Subtle?

• Accessibility and Layers (09:15-10:26): Toni critiques the song's subtlety, lamenting that it requires extensive analysis to appreciate—“maybe the song isn't... you should be able to understand kind of this face value.” Joe agrees the song may be “a little too subtle” and questions if Swift intended any controversy.

6. Autobiography, Fantasy, and Truth-Telling

• Invented Backstory (12:45-18:17): The hosts unpack the childhood anecdote (“last time I laughed this hard... broke my arm”), debating whether it’s real, an invented backstory, or metaphorical.
  • Joe questions the “cautious discretion” verse, arguing Taylor’s real-life choices don’t reflect such a trait, further supporting the interpretation that this is a character, not Swift herself.
  • Quote: “At what point in her career... did she show cautious discretion?” — Joe (18:19)

7. Youngest vs. Eldest Daughter & Birth Order Stereotypes

• Family Dynamics (22:39-34:43): The song uses birth order (“eldest daughter... first lamb to the slaughter... youngest child raised in the wild”) as central metaphors. Both hosts push back on these generalizations as “fantasy” or “exceedingly dangerous propaganda.” Toni notes, “This is hyperbole. She does this. She is running a fantasy here.”

8. Internet Culture & Millennial Slang

• Tonal Divides (07:57-09:41, 21:37-22:25): Both hosts take issue with millennial slang like “bad bitch” and “fire.” Toni analyzes this as a questionable feminist move: “It’s kind of like saying, I’m not like other girls, you know, because then you’re saying that other girls... there’s something wrong with them.” (25:15)

9. Fantasy vs. Reality in Love

• Impossible Promises (26:26-29:31): The lyrics’ insistence (“I’m never gonna let you down”) are taken to task—Joe argues these are “fantasy version[s] of a relationship promise,” alluding to the unrealistic fairytale aspect akin to Swift’s earlier “White Horse.”
  • Quote: “You can’t promise someone you’re never going to let them down.” — Joe (26:54)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Use of Internet Lingo:
  “Everybody's so punk on the Internet / Everybody's unbothered till they're not / Every joke's just trolling in memes / Sad as it seems / Apathy is hot” — read by Joe (01:26)

• On Taylor’s Lyric Choices:
  “I think Taylor Swift is a great writer, and I think people have to understand that not every writer is always putting out their... their best all the time.” — Toni (08:12)

• Satirical Take on Parental Influence:
  “This birth order thing that she's pushing here is exceedingly dangerous propaganda.” — Joe (34:03)

• Meta-Joke about Parental Sex Lives:
  “My parents never had sex to create me. I don’t know if you guys knew that. I don’t think anybody that I've known has had this happen to them.” — Toni (30:35)

• On Pop Critique & the Internet:
  “In the Internet culture, you are gonna get beaten up for your worst lyric on your entire album. And that's life, you know? And you can't really complain about that because she's succeeded in using Internet culture to be very successful.” — Joe (48:56)

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[37:51] Guest Interview: Tyler Foggatt (The New Yorker)

Her Relationship to "Eldest Daughter"

• Tyler identifies as a “fan correspondent” at the New Yorker, relating her experience growing up with Taylor Swift’s music and feeling cautious about being an open fan at various periods.

  • Quote: “I guess there probably was a period where I also thought I was too big of a bad bitch and a savage to really be vocal about… my support of her, too.” (40:29)

• She critiques the song for being “one of the more controversial ones on the album,” reflecting a lack of editing and cohesion.

  • Quote: “Taylor is taking a swing at so many things to the point that she doesn't really hit any of them hard enough, in my view.” (41:03)

• Tyler supports the analysis that the song is a muddle of metaphors, internet commentary, and failed attempts at integrating earnestness.

  • “There are lines in here where it's like she is getting at something real… but yeah, there are a lot of things that she's trying to do with the song.” (42:58)
  • Notes the chorus as an interpolation of "White Horse": “She still thinks it's a fairy tale or she thinks it's a fairy tale now more than ever, which is interesting.” (53:03)

• On Youngest-Child Metaphor: “I'm like, what are you talking about? Isn't the whole point that youngest children are, like, sheltered and protected in part by people like you, the eldest daughter?” (50:27)

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Other Significant Topics

Extended Metaphors vs. Literalism

• Both hosts and guest note Swift’s usual skill with extended metaphor is absent here, leading to a jarring mix of earnest and awkward.
  • Quote: “Taylor's usually really good at using, like, extended metaphor in her songs... but in this song, she really, like, kind of stays away from that.” — Toni (45:35)

The Trap of Relatability in Pop

• Toni muses that the urge for mass relatability sometimes leads to “flat” or disingenuous music:
  • “Whenever you try to make songs relatable... sometimes that's part of what makes it seem flat.” (55:15)

Writing & Editing Advice [59:17+]

• Tyler gives advice to student and aspiring writers: value newsroom collaboration, accept editing as ongoing, and recognize no piece is ever “truly finished”— you just have to draw the line somewhere.
  • Quote: “There's never a piece that doesn't need to be edited somehow.” (61:42)

Appreciation for Taylor’s Craft

• All participants, despite critique, acknowledge Swift’s ability to “capture the zeitgeist,” and urge listeners to revisit songs as their perceptions and the zeitgeist evolves.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [00:26] — Is "Eldest Daughter" About Taylor? Storytelling mechanics
• [03:48] — "But" vs. "And" in lyric structure
• [05:09] — Discussion of cringe/intentionality, cosplaying
• [09:15] — On subtlety and accessibility in songwriting
• [12:45] — Melody and beauty of the chorus, use of backstory
• [18:19] — Dissecting “cautious discretion” as fantasy, not autobiography
• [21:37] — The feminism of “I’m not a bad bitch…”
• [26:54] — The problem of impossible relationship promises
• [34:03] — Critique of birth order stereotypes as “dangerous propaganda”
• [37:51] — Interview with Tyler Foggatt starts
• [41:03] — Tyler’s take: the song as unfocused, controversial
• [48:56] — The internet’s amplification of weakest lyrics
• [53:03] — The fairy tale problem: referencing “White Horse”
• [59:17] — Advice for young writers
• [65:01] — Closing remarks on growing with Taylor’s music

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Tone & Style

The conversation is insightful, skeptical, and wryly humorous, balancing close literary analysis with pop-culture banter. Toni plays the hyper-online, sharp-tongued next-gen critic; Joe the dad-joke-making, analytical Boomer who lovingly debates lyrics. Tyler Foggatt brings a critic-fan’s nuanced take, grounding the episode in the realities of creative industries.

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Final Takeaway

While "Eldest Daughter" borrows Taylor Swift’s persona and autobiographical trappings, its lyrical “masking,” fantastical promises, and birth-order metaphors reveal it as an intentionally slant, sometimes clumsy meditation on self-presentation, vulnerability, and love in the internet age—less Taylor Swift’s true story, more Swift-playing-with-storytelling. The episode models how close reading, intergenerational dialogue, and a little loving skepticism can make your next listen both more pleasurable and more discerning.

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Memorable closing line:
“You wake up one day and you just decide to lock in on being faithful and kind, you can do it. Like, Taylor Swift has said that you can do it. And that's beautiful.” — Toni (36:40)

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Guests: Tyler Foggatt, The New Yorker
Main Hosts: Joe Romm & Toni Romm

(Episode excluded advertisements and non-content sections by design.)

Transcript

[A]

Hello. Welcome back to Decoding Taylor Swift, where we dig into the deeper meaning of the life of a showgirl. One song each week. Today, we will transform how you think about eldest daughter with the help of my swifty father, a storytelling expert recognized by Rolling Stone magazine.

[B]

Hi, I'm Joe Rome, and my daughter Antonia is great at decoding lyrics, writing, and making people laugh.

[A]

Now, you're too kind, Jo. You're too kind.

[B]

I am your dad now. This is a beautiful song, but it's also bizarre because it seems like it's about Taylor Swift, but it really isn't interesting.

[A]

Say more about that. Say more about that.

[B]

I will, but I also wanna say it's a masterclass in the most important storytelling secret, the use of the word but. This song has 8 buts in it.

[A]

Yep. 8 buts, 11 ands.

[B]

That is a high ratio of buts to ands. And that is a good sign that you're introducing a lot of twists and turns and conflict. Cause but is the most important word in storytelling. That's underused. And. And is the one that's mostly overused.

[A]

Overused.

[B]

And I do also want to add that later on, we will be talking to host of the New Yorkers, the Political Scene podcast, and a Taylor Swift fanatic. But let's dive into this song and why. Maybe it isn't entirely about Taylor Swift, but then again, this is the life of the showgirl.

[A]

That is true.

[B]

Right. So we know that this is a show that she is performing. Let me dive into the lyrics. Everybody's so punk on the Internet Everybody's unbothered till they're not Every joke's just trolling in memes Sad as it seems Apathy is hot Everybody's cutthroat in the comments Every single hot take is cold as ice when you found me I said I was busy that was a lie.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So talk to me about your thoughts on that. Cause I think we think very different things about the song.

[B]

So she's been very criticized for the opening verse here because it seems very flat.

[A]

And it's also kind of weird and cringe. I can't lie, it's pretty. It sounds like kind of millennial tone deafy.

[B]

Yes. And since we've seen already in this album that she has been very sophistic with her use of lyrics. And we've also. And this is track five, which means supposed to be emotionally intense, like other track fives. Let's see the archer. And all too well, among others. So the question is, is it cringy? Unintentionally does she not know she's sounding a little cringy, or is she cringy intentionally?

[A]

I think it's just cringe.

[B]

You think it's just cringe? She has said that the entire first verse of Eldest Daughter is somebody trying to figure out.

[A]

I think the wording that you're looking for is not cringy, but just cringe.

[B]

Cringe.

[A]

Cringe is its own. Yeah.

[B]

Ah, I stand corrected by my gen T daughter. But the point is not unintentionally. That I think is what people seem to have missed that. Yes. And the interesting thing is when we see it as cringe, one of the things that means is it's too literal. It's not very figurative. Right. One of the whole points of this podcast is that figurative language, you know, metaphors, which she is known for, and all those sorts of things are the way that you sound more visionary and more poetic. And she's pulled that out of here, at least until the line, every single hot take is cold as ice. Which is, yes, a Taylorism. The hot and cold. But. So I think that she is portraying a person. It's not her. Right. It's someone who is trying to talk about the Internet, but in a cool way. But who isn't cool.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

I think that.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I get that this line.

[B]

Though, you know, when you found me, I said I was busy. That was a lie. So that's a. That's a. A big jump.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And our first clue possibly that he's talking to Guy as. You know, sometimes you ask someone out. Right. And they say, I'm busy. Right. That's often their nice way of saying they're not interested. They could be busy. Now, it's worth pointing out here, I think that she actually was busy. If we're thinking that this is Travis, she's doing the ERAS tour.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which some would say was pretty.

[A]

Pretty busy.

[B]

Pretty busy. And we later learn that she's at some point along the ERAS tour, she's also working on the new album with Max Martin. So she was very busy here. So. And yet this line says, when you found me, I said I was busy. That was a lie.

[A]

Well, then that kind of does mean that it maybe is probably about her.

[B]

It is sort of about her.

[A]

Well, sure. She's putting on like a mask, like a caricature of herself.

[B]

Right. She is cosplaying. This is sort of what she does that I think has frustrated people. Cause she does it more on this album. She does it more overtly in this album where she cosplays a version of herself. And I think that's what she's doing here. I have been afflicted by a terminal uniqueness. I've been dying just from trying to seem cool. Yeah, I want to pause there, because terminal uniqueness. So terminal uniqueness is from Alcoholics Anonymous. It's not a randomly chosen pair of words. What is being terminally unique? That's where you go to an AA meeting and you listen to other people talk about what they went through and how they recovered that process. And you think, oh, but my problems are so completely different than everyone else's. They're of no help to me. And you don't show up again. And that's why it's terminal. It's terminal unique because you think you're so special that you can't do this process. So I'm just saying that because it's a little ironic. In other words, she's not bragging. I mean, it sounds like she's bragging, I've been afflicted by a terminal uniqueness. But she's also being ironic by saying, well, lots of everyone thinks they're unique.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And that's kind of a flaw. That's a mistake if you go around thinking you're unique.

[A]

Especially on the Internet. Right, right.

[B]

And we do know I've been dying just from trying to seem cool. So here we have some dying. She dies a lot in her songs. That's kind of a standard thing. It's a standard hero's journey. Right. In the Hero's Journey, you sort of metaphorically die. In Opalite. That's where she's doing the verse that's about Travis and says, but failure brings you freedom. Right. But failure brings you freedom. Which is a classic twist in a hero's journey story. Right. The lowest point in our life is the turning point that changes everything. So she has been dying just from trying to seem cool. And this is sort of a coming out song in which she's admitting. I mean, we all know this. Cause she often has lines in her songs to this effect. So then she gets very specific and she jumps in with the but. The first of eight. But I'm not a bad bitch and this isn't savage But I'm never gonna let you down I'm never gonna leave you out so many traitors Smooth operators But I'm never gonna break that vow I'm never gonna leave you now, now, now that's the chorus.

[A]

Yeah. I just kind of don't I hate it because the song is so catchy itself, but I just think that this was not a song that needed to be written. You know what I'm saying? Like, I think that it's pretty obvious that, you know, the Internet is a vicious place. I think there are better ways of putting it, and I think there is a more, I don't know, poetic way of talking about the Internet. Like, I mean, if you're really trying to be basic but still be poet, talk about it as like a jungle or something. I don't know. The usage of all of these terms just. It does make it seem like it's millennial, tone deaf. Because even if it's not, right, she knows by putting it out there that people probably interpret it like that. And either she's okay with, like, people thinking that she's being extremely cringe when she's doing it, or maybe she just doesn't realize how insane she sounds. And I think Taylor Swift is a great writer, and I think people have to understand that not every writer is always putting out their. Their. Their best all the time. I mean, or even what the majority like. Because, you know, a lot of writers have works that some like and some don't like. Some would call their best and some would call, like, they're mediocre as. But it's. It's just a matter of taste. And I think the song really demonstrates how tastes can diverge.

[B]

Yeah. And look, I'm gonna sort of hear.

[A]

The other thing is, like, I think if you need to listen to podcasts like these that analyze it to, like, understand what she. Then maybe the song isn't, like, you should be able to understand kind of this face value that's kind of similar to what the song is about. And then there can be deeper layers within that that add to the song, but they shouldn't change, like, the entire mode of how this song comes across. You know, I think that's my main qualm with it.

[B]

And I think I'm not going to entirely disagree with that. I think that it's a little too subtle. And so I think you could legitimately ask the question, if she did this on purpose, was she intending to be controversial? Right. I mean, she certainly should.

[A]

I mean, I think she knows that she'll make money off of people who hate the song and listen to it because they think it's cringe.

[B]

Yeah. And I think she's never.

[A]

That's the reality of the industry.

[B]

And it's also her reality that she doesn't always discourage the haters, right? I mean, on, let's say Reputation, right, she dropped songs that she knew, right? People were going to be, you know, oh my God, you, you, you know, right. So this is, I think, I think.

[A]

The reason that Reputation worked and this kind of falls flat, it seems, is that Reputation came from a place where she like, not only wrote songs that were kind of like, I don't know, going against the grain, she also started acting like, you know, like wearing clothes and hanging out with people and kind of being like, personally, like changing herself and maybe coming into herself in a way that she's not really doing here. She's maintaining this like, I don't know, Persona of, you know, she's dating Travis.

[D]

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[B]

Well, look, I think that it's the rest of the song. First of all, the melody. This is a beautiful melody.

[A]

Right? I love the melody. I really. I love the melody of this song.

[B]

And, you know, we spoke to Charlie Harding, and he took the view that this was intentional on her part.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But I think this is how I think about it. The story here is everyone pretends to be something they're not. Right. That's sort of the main theme of this song. And she overtly says twice that she lied, but now she's gonna come into the key story, which is her backstory, comparable to the backstory she gives Ophelia in the first song and the backstory that she gives Kitty in the second verse.

[A]

You just enjoy starting off with a premise and then telling, you know, the. For sure.

[B]

The flashback.

[A]

The flashback. She enjoys flashbacks and songs, which I think is a fun device. I enjoy when she does it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And again, we know that this is a show, right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, she breaks the fourth wall in life of a showgirl and says, thank you, the audience, for coming. Thank the band. Hey, thanks to Sabrina. So here's what she says. This is a very interesting verse. You know, the last time I laughed this hard was on the trampoline in someone's backyard. I must have been about eight or nine. That was the night I fell off and broke my arm. Pretty soon, I learned cautious discretion when your first crush crushes something kind. This is a very bizarre verse, leaping back. Last time I laughed this hard. So presumably she's talking about this boy, and let's. Let's call him Travis.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And she says, I'm have. I'm laughing with this guy, and I haven't laughed this hard since I was a kid. And then it was. I must have been about eight or nine. Now, at least she didn't say six or six.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Seven.

[A]

She didn't.

[B]

She didn't say six or seven. But, you know, there are people who think.

[A]

I close my eyes. I don't see.

[B]

You can now open your eyes again.

[A]

I'm okay. Also, ignore me flagrantly trying to cover up the pimple that I pop. I'm just gonna hold it. I'm gonna hold my hand shamelessly for the entire episode.

[B]

Why don't you do that? Because nobody.

[A]

I don't have pimples. I don't have them. I don't get them. My skin is perfect and beautiful.

[B]

And by the way, this is just some general life advice for Everybody, if.

[A]

You have a pimple, like, yes, don't touch it. Like, oh, my God. But it was so juicy. It was like right there.

[B]

The life advice is, if you don't want people to notice your pimple, just keep your finger there.

[A]

The Just keep your finger there the whole time. This is some good life advice. You guys just find different ways of holding your hand that you think is kind of normal. Like this, like this. This is like a thing. People do this. And then there's like, there's like, there's like this, there's like that, there's that one. And then those are the two that I've figured out for this episode that that's happening.

[B]

But let's go back to. I must have been about 8 or 9. So she's into numerology. She made that very clear on the podcast with Travis. And so does she randomly choose 8 or 9? Or does she choose 8 or 9 as some people think?

[A]

Because it's 3 away from 6 or 7.

[B]

No, because it's 89. As in 1989.

[A]

Yeah, well, sure. As in I think it's 2 or 3 away from 6 or 7. And if you add the 2 to 3 back to 8 or 9, then you get 13, which is her favorite number.

[B]

But it is unusual that she says eight or nine. And some people. And I think the question is, is she referencing 1989? And perhaps.

[A]

Wait, guys, six, seven adds up to 13.

[B]

Six, seven does add up to 13.

[A]

Oh, my God, you guys. Six, seven is a Taylor Swift reference. I'm sorry, Taylor Swift is 6, 7 reference.

[B]

Okay, let's. So that was the night I fell off and broke my arm. Now, this apparently is a made up story. I mean, it's not about her.

[A]

Well, it's a metaphor. Yeah. I mean, obviously it's about how if you get too free and enjoy yourself and be yourself too much, that you'll get crucified. And I think that's the fear that a lot of people have on the.

[B]

You're jumping for joy. You jump too high. It's a little like Icarus flying too close to the sun. It's a metaphor of, yeah, you can't enjoy yourself too much. And. But so then. Then it comes. This is the line that really got to me after I played it a bunch of times, which is my thing to do. Pretty soon I learned cautious discretion when your first crush crushes something kind. And a nice use of the double crush. Crush meaning one thing and then crush meaning another thing. This is another favorite writing for me.

[A]

Eating the popcorn that's right in front of me that I've decided to give in to eating. This is a really good popcorn, you guys.

[B]

Did you bring enough?

[A]

That's my father. Yeah, my father's just such an interesting guy. So you have to just pop some popcorn.

[B]

I didn't I bring those to you. I visited you this weekend.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Yay.

[B]

Yeah, that was. That was.

[A]

I'm eating that. That's the popcorn Family weekend through the popcorn. Yay.

[B]

Although I have to ask, did you bring enough for all of our listeners.

[A]

I'm gonna pretend that you didn't just make that joke.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Anyway, you guys, it was a dad joke. It was a dad joke.

[B]

But let's go back to this.

[A]

I accept and support you, Joe.

[B]

Thank you. Pretty soon I learned cautious discretion. Now, this is why I say this is not a song about Taylor Swift. At what point in her career, in her life did she show cautious discretion? Right. At the age of 19, against the advice of all her friends, she went out with John Mayer. Right, right. We have the whole all too well thing. She falls in love very quickly. Right. We have the song style. She gets picked up. What? By Harry Styles. In a car without the lights on. Right. I knew you were trouble when you walked in Once upon a time. A few mistakes ago. So where is the cautious discretion in her life? This is what I'm saying. This is a fantasy story about a person who says when your first crush crushes something kind. When I said, I don't believe in marriage, that was a lie. Okay, so this is her second lie she's admitting to. And presumably again, something she said early on to the boy. I don't believe in marriage. A lot of people. It's a common thing that people say when they're trying to distance themselves from romance. Classical Because, Right, of course.

[A]

Because you want to seem casual and cool.

[B]

Right. You want to seem cool.

[A]

Guys, situationships are literally everything in college. Everybody has a situationship. Nobody is dating. It's a terrible landscape. Everybody, save yourselves. Literally save yourselves. Bring back normal things. And maybe is like the concept of like, bring back dating a little bit heteronormative and like old fashioned? Yes, maybe. But the concept of situationships is so evil that it's okay in this instance. And I think part of the prevalence of situationships, if I may speak as a college student, is because there's so much more access to seeing how other people's lives are that you can feel like you're behind or that you're doing something wrong. And so you don't ever want to commit to something, to one thing that you think will, like, I don't know, detract from your overall life experience and.

[B]

Just like, well, the grass is always greener. There's so much choice.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

It looks like, why am I not going out with this supermodel? Or why am I not going out with Travis Kelce? Right.

[A]

That's what I'm saying.

[B]

Right. And you can scroll through your phone or whatever app you're on and. Or just look at Instagram. All the beautiful people that.

[A]

And at the school I'm at right now, every person is either already taken, evil, or doesn't want to date you. I mean, it's horrible. So my point is just mostly they're evil or taken. You know, obviously, like, you know, me and my friends, like, we're all really bad. We're baddies. So, like, obviously, you know, we're very.

[B]

Are you baddies the way. Are you saying you're a bad bitch and you're savage?

[A]

Yes. No. Yeah, we're bad bitches. We're savage, and we will let you down. We will leave you now. It is important to. To be said that. That being able to talk about your emotions freely and talk about, like, how it is hard to kind of live in this landscape that Taylor's describing, where you're. You're kind of. I don't know, behind this wall that you have to put up for yourself is. It is hard. So I really respect what she's trying to do, but I do think that she could have put it in a better way, you know?

[B]

Well, let's keep going here, where she gets to the deep. The deep emotional part. Every eldest daughter was the first lamb to the slaughter. So we all dressed up as wolves and we looked fire.

[A]

But I really hate that line. I just want to say I think it could have been so clever, but I think the use of fire. And you know what? Maybe other people will disagree with me. And, in fact, they should. I think. I think I'm just biased because as somebody who's. Who's, like, chronically online, like, I just. Millennials are so awesome sometimes. And then sometimes it's like they use things and they do things like this, and it's just like, please, guys, it's okay. Like, we both can't buy houses, and that can bring us together. Our language does not have to bring us together. So please, please stop.

[B]

You know, it's. Again, she is using language here to make fun of herself. But I appreciate that it may not appear that way. And it's perfectly legitimate.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

And she's inverting the wolf in sheep's clothing to be the sheep in wolf's clothing, you know?

[B]

Right. The first lamb to the slaughter is also kind of an indirect reference we didn't get into. If you have a song called Eldest Daughter, the implication is there's a father. Right. And a mother. And in this case, that's so true.

[A]

Joe. Me, when I'm a daughter. But, like, I have a dad and I have a mom. That's crazy.

[B]

And you're also. You are the eldest daughter and the other.

[A]

You know my favorite meme of all time, Dad, I do not. My favorite meme of all time is this person who's really, like, androgynous. And somebody commented on their post and was like, you look like if a man and a woman had a baby. It's so funny because, like, well, yes, it's just so funny because, like, you understand what they were trying to say. But it's like, yes, that's my favorite meme of all time. I can't lie to you.

[B]

What she is saying here is that this character she's playing is a person who pretended to be cooler than they were. Right now, again, this isn't exactly Taylor. It's some, let's say, hyperbolic version of Taylor, over the top version of Taylor. But as we've seen, it isn't really Taylor. It's Taylor sometimes in her songs, and then sometimes in her songs, she's cool. But the point is, in this song, this is really being spun as a love story where, hey, when I first met you I was trying to be cool and I said, hey, I'm busy. Hey, I don't believe in marriage. Right. But she's really head over heels with this guy in the song. Right. But I'm never gonna let you down I'm never gonna leave you out so many traders, smooth operators But I'm never gonna break that vow I'm never gonna leave you now, now, now as if to reiterate again, repeat now three times. She means now.

[A]

Here's the thing. Yeah, I. I think that the marriage line is also partially, like. I think that the entire song is partially talking to her listeners. You know, for people who feel, like, alienated, I think that's the argument for her intentionality. Like, she wanted to appeal to people who. Who wanted to, you know, get away from the Internet stuff by saying, like, you know, I might not be a bad bitch, but I'll always be there for you. And I think that the core of the problem with the song. If we're woke enough to go there. Jo, are you woke enough for my take? That I'm about to disappear?

[B]

I don't think I'm woke enough for you, my daughter, because you're pretty. No.

[A]

Are we gonna be woke enough for this take? I think whenever we talk about.

[B]

You are woke up.

[A]

I think, okay, I don't know if. I don't know if you're woke enough for this take and if the world is not even ready. But this is something that if we're going to talk about feminism critically, whenever words like I'm not a bad bitch are used, Comparing yourself to a type of woman who is more fearless or more like, bold and stuff, drawing a line between you and them, implying that your position is the position of the majority or that you're more correct or more. I don't know, you're more real. You're implying that a whole swath of women are, I don't know, facetious, that they're being, like, deceptive, or that they're just, like, not as good as you are. And I think that that is the main tonal problem that might come across implicitly. People might not notice that that's the reason why it seems off. But whenever we call out as women, like, I'm not a bad bitch. I'm gonna be honest. I'm not a savage. I'm. It's kind of like saying, I'm not like other girls, you know, because then you're saying that other girls are. I don't know. There's something wrong with them.

[B]

Well, she's.

[A]

No, look, by the way, in this kind of patriarchal structure, I think for somebody as smart, as Swift, it just. It feels a little off that she. It feels like that she wouldn't miss that, that this is a little bit of weird wording unless she herself kind of believed that it was like, I.

[B]

Want you to know, I really like this. Take my daughter.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you. I know. I go to college, I become radicalized. I'm just kidding, you guys.

[B]

No, this isn't. I don't think this is a radical take. I just think this is a take that takes a meta. Look, it looks one level up, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And by the way, there are other lines here that. That bothered me when she says, but I'm never going to let you down. Well, of course she is. You can't promise someone you're never going to let them down. Right. I Mean, you. You know, you, you. Anyone who's been in a relationship, a long relationship, understands.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Partners are going to let each other down. They're going to make somebody feel left out sooner or later. So she's making promise, and that's why I kind of call this a little bit of a fantasy. Right. She's flipped over to a fantasy version of love, which isn't realistic in and of itself. And the reason I use the word fantasy, of course, is because in the very first song, which is still number one in America, the fate of Ophelia, she says, the eldest daughter of a nobleman, Ophelia, lived in fantasy. Right. So in the very first song, that's.

[A]

Actually a really good connection. I can't lie. You kind of cooked with that opinion, Jo. You kind of cooked.

[B]

Well, I had been thinking about it, because she doesn't, as you say, she. She didn't use the word phrase eldest daughter in her first song by accident.

[A]

Right.

[B]

She's clearly referencing the song, the fifth song. So, yes, this is a fantasy, and it's not the only fantasy in here. She has the whole fantasy of living in the suburbs. Right. And in fact, the whole point is being a showgirl is a fantasy, and pretending that you were a feely is a fantasy. But, yes, you can't make these promises to. To. To another person. You. You can promise, I'm never going to break that vow. Because when you make the wedding, they're called wedding vows. Right. So, sure. But the fact is, half of marriages, 40 to 50% of marriages end in divorce. Right. Including, as you often love to point out, your own parents. Wow.

[A]

I know. This is. Wait, is Taylor Swift a Tony, Joe and Patty reference? That's crazy.

[B]

Well, it's just interesting that everyone who starts a marriage makes the vow that they're not going to break. I mean, obviously they're making a vow. It's a statement. I'm not going to break this. And yet everybody in the audience knows that a large fraction of the weddings that they go to, at least one person is going to be breaking that vow.

[A]

Not that either of you guys cheated and, you know, you didn't break those vows, but sure, yeah.

[B]

Oh, look, those are.

[D]

You.

[B]

You can control your own behavior. Right?

[A]

Right. Agree, agree.

[B]

You can't. Sometimes you can't know. Right. You can fall out of love with people. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean you have to get divorced at that point, but I mean, the point is that. That. That all of these promises, these are. These are the fantasy version of a relationship promises. And let's be clear. They've been together for two years.

[A]

Let's be clear.

[B]

Let me clear. They're still in the froze of infatuated sexual lust. Clearly.

[A]

Okay. Thanks, dad.

[B]

Well, that's. You should put a whole on this album that's about that, right?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So. And that's great.

[A]

I love, love that for her.

[B]

That's great. All I'm just saying is crazy to.

[A]

Hear a 65 year old say the throes of sexual lust, but you go bitch. Period.

[B]

I know. We discussed how your parents never actually had sex.

[A]

My parents never had sex to create me. I don't know if you guys knew that. I don't think anybody that I.

[B]

You were immaculate conception. Did you know that?

[A]

Yeah. No, I don't think anybody I've known has had this happen to them. But this is. This is a new thing. And that's that my parents never had sex to make me. It's just pretty craz. But like, I don't know.

[B]

And by the way, just so you.

[A]

Know, I say that's one. I don't even think they knew. They learned what sex was from the song would by Taylor Swift. Yeah, I had to explain it to them.

[B]

And. And since you've always been wondering why we got divorced, that's the answer. We never had sex.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

See, if we had had sex, who knows? Maybe. Maybe it could have lasted.

[A]

Ugh, what a shame. Thanks for sharing that with me. Thanks for being vulnerable. I really appreciate that Taylor has inspired with our listeners. Yes, thank you.

[B]

This, this song 5 has, has inspired me. Although let's. Why don't you do the bridge?

[A]

The bridge? I can do the bridge and the. Okay.

[B]

But yeah, do the bridge.

[A]

We lie back a beautiful, beautiful time lapse Ferris wheels, kisses and lilacs and things I said were dumb because I thought that I'd never find that beautiful, beautiful life that shimmers that innocent light Back like when we were young Every youngest child felt they were raised up in the wild but now you're home. Those last two lines are.

[C]

I hate.

[A]

People who are in love. I hate that. I hate that they're taken and that they're happy. I hate that for them, these single ones.

[B]

It's a nice bridge. This is a sweet, sweet, sweet bridge.

[A]

I know. I think it is a very sweet bridge. I can't lie.

[B]

And I did like the line and things I said were dumb. I think that's the kind of line that we like from Taylor because you have to do a little bit of extra thinking to Realize that she's. What she's saying that she just has been poo pooing, all this romantic stuff like Ferris wheels and this beautiful, beautiful life, but, you know, shimmers that innocent light back like when we were young, which is sort of true. But on the other hand, in an album that has the song Wood on it, it's not really.

[A]

I don't know if that's really innocent.

[B]

Yeah, it's not an innocent kind of love. This is true hardcore romantic love.

[A]

Yeah. Hardcore raw, dogging love.

[B]

Yes. I do have to say something here.

[A]

Of which that my dad has just learned in this podcast.

[B]

It's the first time I've never even.

[A]

Heard about it, which is good because Wood is like the ninth song. And so it's good that he's getting like this now. Just.

[B]

I will have to go and listen to it again now that I. Now that I have all the knowledge.

[A]

Now that you understand. And I hope that this is not, you know, too much of a shock. Yeah, yeah. To hear that when two people have. They hug for one second, then that's sex.

[B]

That's how you came here? Well, you mean it was an immaculate conception? It was just.

[A]

Yeah, well, it was just you hugged for a second. But that's sex, is it not? So then you have had sex. That's beautiful, dad. I'm so proud of you.

[B]

I thought it was a hug.

[A]

Yeah, well, it's just like a one second hug and then you have a baby. Yeah.

[B]

But let me just make a comment here. Every youngest child felt they were raised up in the wild. Just to be clear, I'm a youngest child, so I can.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Clearly.

[A]

Did you feel that you were raised up in the wild?

[B]

No, not at all. I've never thought of that for one minute.

[A]

I know. Usually you're pretty coddled if you're the youngest child.

[B]

Yeah. This birth order thing that she's pushing here is exceedingly dangerous propaganda. Well, it's a fantasy, right? It's a fantasy of everyone is the same. I mean, and obviously every youngest child and even every eldest daughter is not the same. Right. It's just not the case. But this is hyperbole. She does this. She is running a fantasy here.

[A]

As somebody who's also the youngest child, I just want to say that, yeah, I guess I was raised up in the wild, which is crazy because I felt like one second like I'm the oldest child, and then one second I'm the youngest child, and I don't even know how that happened. Like, that just happened. To me, you guys, I can understand how you.

[B]

How you were torn.

[A]

I know. I know. And.

[B]

And then she repeats the chorus, you know, because I'm not a bad bitch, and this isn't savage. And I'm never gonna let you down. I'm never gonna leave you. And all these. You know, And. And so.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, It's a very bizarre song. I will say that.

[A]

It is.

[B]

It's a song that. That. That. That is a little discordant.

[A]

Sure. Good word.

[B]

And I am moved by your take to say that I understand what she was trying to do.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

But I'm not certain that she succeeded. Yeah. And I'm also. And when I say I know what she was trying to do.

[A]

No, I get it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm still. It's still. There's still whole lines in this song that are very. They're not true. And in some sense, this entire song is telling this boy, hey, I lied to you twice. My entire Persona for my life since childhood has been a lie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, these are stunning admissions to make to somebody that you're saying, I'm good, but this vow I'm keeping. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Everything before now. Right. That's why she puts the word now.

[A]

That's fine. Like now. Like, I'm. Like, I'm fine now. Like, I'm fine. Like now. Like, I'm starting now. It's gonna be fine.

[B]

Starting now. Exactly. So I don't mean to be too satirical, but that's really what she is doing. She's ignore everything that has happened before. Don't. All those songs that I wrote in the past.

[A]

Yeah. About being crazy and, like, cheating on people or, like, trying to. Like, it's fine, you guys. Now I'm fine. I'm healthy. And that's a great place to end. Because the truth is that if you wake up one day and you just decide to lock in on being faithful and kind, you can do it. Like, Taylor Swift has said that you can do it. And that's beautiful.

[B]

See you next time. Oh, no. Excuse me. I'm sorry. We have a great interview.

[A]

We have a great interview for you.

[B]

Hello. Welcome back. We're excited to be here with Tyler Foggut. Did I pronounce that right?

[C]

Foggit.

[B]

Actually Fogg it. Tyler Foggit and not Taylor Foggatt, as we learn. It's Tyler. She is from the New Yorker. She runs the political podcast, but is also one of their designated Taylor Swift people. Or how would you describe yourself?

[C]

I guess I informally see myself and maybe David Ramnic, our Editor in chief would disagree with this characterization a little bit, but as, like, our kind of informal Taylor Swift correspondent, I feel like we have a lot of amazing writers at the magazine who, you know, write pieces focusing, you know, on the music more specifically, you know, kind of like reviewing the album the way that Pitchfork or a music publication would. And I think that maybe because I've just been obsessed with Taylor for so long, I have a tendency to write about her more from the point of view of a fan who has, you know, enjoys going to her shows live, who also, like, gets really into the lore, like, the stuff that's actually, like, the people who are inspiring the songs or who we can assume are inspiring the songs. So kind of getting deeper into, like, the sort of Taylor Swift as a cultural force, as opposed to Taylor Swift specifically as a musician who does this kind of music or this kind of music.

[B]

And how did this obsession start?

[C]

I mean, it started as, you know, when I was a young girl in my bedroom. I feel like most people, when they talk about their relationship with Taylor, it kind of is the same story. And I think for me, like, I recently turned 30, so just to give you a sense of my age, and I think that I am a Swiftie who kind of started liking Taylor when she. When a lot of young girls liked her. And I was young in the same way that Taylor was. She was a little bit older than me, but I could really relate to what she was writing about. And then I think that as time went on and as she came out with more albums, I. You know, it kind of became a faux pas to, like, Taylor Swift. Like, it wasn't cool. And so this was like the reputation era, the lover era, for sure. And so I couldn't really stop listening to her entirely, but I definitely stopped talking about how much I liked her. And it was really during the pandemic when she came out with Folklore and Evermore. And all of a sudden, music critics who hadn't given her the time of day in the past were talking about how she was this, like, revolutionary songwriter and, like, finally giving her the praise that she deserved, that I became a lot more vocal about my longstanding Taylor Love. And then I think another aspect of it, too, was the whole saga with her kind of fighting for control of her masters. I think that was something that a lot of people kind of came together and they were like, you know, I don't necessarily like her. Like, I kind of think she's cringe, but, like, what she's doing here is really cool. And so I think that that larger story that kind of, like, transformed her from, like, being this really popular force in music to being kind of like a feminist icon. I think that was a big part of my kind of doubling down on, you know, my obsession with her. And then, of course, the Eras tour when, like, even people who didn't want to hear about her had to at every moment of the day.

[B]

Well, you're a bit like my daughter in this regard. And in some sense, you went through the process that Taylor describes in Eldest Daughter where you had this cautious discretion about being the overt Taylor fan.

[C]

Yeah, it's a little true. Yeah. I guess there probably was a period where I also thought I was too big of a bad bitch and a savage to really be vocal about, you know, my support of her, too.

[B]

And so we were just chatting briefly before him. But in some sense, you were an eldest daughter and was interested in talking about this song in particular. We'll talk about, you know, some of the others, but sort of, what. What is your relationship to this song and how do you feel about it?

[C]

So I don't think I'm alone in saying that, you know, this song is one of the more controversial ones on the album. I think that there are a lot of ideas in the song, maybe too many ideas. And while the Tortured poets department, you know, the album that came before this kind of suffered from a lack of editing in the sense that there are way too many tracks. I feel like this is one of the songs on the Life of a Showgirl. Maybe the only song where I'm like, this could have used a real editor. Because I think that Taylor is taking a swing at so many things to the point that she doesn't really hit any of them hard enough, in my view. So I think, like, there are parts of it that definitely that speak to me. And that's like, the general theme of someone who is secretly really vulnerable but feels like they can't be open about that all the time. I mean, I think that everyone, you know, eldest daughter, youngest daughter, only child, like, that's something that people are going to relate to, like, in this day and age when, like, we're kind of surrounded by, you know, people on the Internet, maybe people in real life who just, like, kind of hate earnestness. And, you know, Taylor Swift is, like, one of the. I mean, you guys have talked about, like, how her songs are full of irony, but I think at the end of the day, she's a very earnest person, and that's part of the reason why she got so much hate early on in her career. And so I think that, like, her just kind of, like, coming out as someone who is earnest and still believes in love and who is actually hurt by things that are said on the Internet and who doesn't feel like she can kind of keep up with, like, maybe even other people in the music industry who are much better at, like, having this, like, cool girl Persona. I found that all to be really interesting. And I think that there are some lines in here that are just, like, remarkable. Like, when she talks about how she's been afflicted by a terminal uniqueness, which, you know, some people have pointed out that this is probably a reference to the concept of terminal uniqueness that comes up in Alcoholics Anonymous. Anonymous.

[A]

Anonymous.

[C]

And, of course, she's had, like, lots of lyrics over the years that kind of get at, you know, drinking. Like, I think about one of the, like, the first line on Fortnite. You know, I was a functioning alcoholic till nobody noticed my new aesthetic. And so I feel like there are lines in here where it's like she is getting at something real, you know, including the line about how she says, you know, when I said, I don't believe in marriage, that was a lie. I took that to be a direct kind of, like, rejoinder of what she was saying in Lavender Haze, where she was like, you know, that 1950s shit that they're trying to put on me. And so I do appreciate the honesty. But, yeah, that being said, there are. There are a lot of things that she's trying to do with the song. It's like. It's a song about how much Internet culture sucks. It's a song about vulnerability and finding someone who you can be your true self around. It's also a love song written by an eldest daughter to a youngest child, Travis Kelsey. It's a song in which eldest daughter, in addition to being, you know, a reference to the fact that Taylor is the eldest daughter, it's also a metaphor, I think, for being the kind of oldest in a modern generation of pop girlies. Like, I kind of. I. And that was the thing, too, that I really wanted the song to be about, because it comes right after father figure. And you can stop me if I'm going on for too long. But I think, you know, you get father figure in which, like, Taylor is kind of putting on this. It's, like a bravado. It's, like, very confident. And she's talking about, you know, so much about the music industry.

[B]

Can you give me one second? Can you Just one second. And. Tony, can you mute yourself when you're not. Is that your. The music's on your end.

[A]

Yeah, it's fine.

[B]

Sorry.

[A]

These people at my school, they just.

[C]

It's okay. I thought that it was, like, you know, like, some kind of, like, fancy background music that maybe would play while I was speaking or something. Like, I wasn't gonna say anything to.

[A]

Give you, like, more, like, I don't know, like, gravitas. Like, that would be so.

[C]

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I was. I was all for.

[A]

Who are trying to, like, play the piano at my school and doing it in annoying ways, but it's okay. Probably a man.

[B]

You're in a man at school.

[A]

Yeah, I'm in one of the music rooms. They've soundproofed them to the hallway, but not between each music room, which is a little crazy, because I can imagine that if you're actually trying to practice a song, like, it would be crazy to, like, hear, like. I don't know, you're practicing, like, perfect on a guitar, and then you hear somebody playing, like, Rush E on the piano in the next room. That seems insane anyway, but I'll mute myself.

[C]

I think it's kind of fitting for a Taylor Swift podcast for there to be, you know, this, like, nice little piano music in the background.

[A]

I know that would be beautiful, but unfortunately, Joseph has spoken.

[C]

If you.

[B]

If. If everyone's fine with it, I will not. I will not stand.

[A]

Okay. I'm. I hope that it's not, like, copyrightable, but I think that it's okay. But. But just really quickly, about something that you said about, like, how the song is, like, about a lot of different things. Like, it's really we. Because Taylor's usually really good at using, like, extended metaphor in her songs to kind of, like, bring together a lot of ideas, but in this song, she really, like, kind of stays away from that. And that, like, struck me, like, she kind of makes it. I don't know. It does feel, like, disjointed a little bit. So, like. Yeah, I completely agree with what you're saying.

[C]

Yeah, no, I think just that switch, and I think this is the reason why so many people find it controversial. It's just, like. It's not only the. The jarring changes that you get from verse to verse where she's talking about, like, memes and trolling on the Internet to then talking about, like, being on a trampoline and breaking her arm when she was 8 or 9. It's like the juxtaposition of this beautiful production and Melody with kind of, like, the lame stuff she's saying. And I get that that juxtaposition is intentional and that the whole point is that she starts by building up the song with all of this kind of, like, cringy slang. And then as the song goes on, she kind of, like, returns to her true self. But, yeah, I just think it makes it, like, a tough listen, honestly.

[A]

Yeah, I think that there are way better ways to talk about the Internet culture, because if you're trying to be earnest in the latter half of the song, it's kind of like, for me, there's no need to sound uncool. Just being honest about that, I think is even more powerful. Not even trying to kind of use the weird slang like, you can't quite fit within the Internet culture, I think just saying, like, you know, everybody's cruel on the Internet, even, and then just. Just kind of like, going from there even would be just a bit better than everybody's so punk on the Internet. I think that she's using a lot of words and millennials, not. Not helping with the stereotypes.

[B]

But, yeah, I mean, I think she had a vision for this song, but I'm not certain at execution. I think it's a little too subtle. And, of course, it's possible she was doing this intentionally to sort of get. She doesn't mind having critics. And she's, in fact, said, hey, you know, if you're talking about my song the first week, you know, that's good. It's certainly not. You know, we really like Father Figure.

[C]

Love it. I think it's probably the best song on the album.

[B]

And she does so many clever things in there. In fact, we were talking about how she used a key change right, when she was taking over the keys to the kingdom. And look, she's working with two of the greatest songwriters of all time, right? So clearly they thought they were doing something. But, you know, as have said many times here, you know, Bob Dylan wrote 600 songs, right? So he'd win a Nobel Prize for 500 of those songs or 550 of those songs, right? We're gonna remember people for their best songs. And in the Internet culture, you are gonna get beaten up for your worst lyric on your entire album. And that's life, you know? And you can't really complain about that because she's succeeded in using Internet culture to be very successful.

[C]

I mean, I even wonder how intentional it might have been. Like this song about, like, you know, these, like, hot takes on the Internet or, like, Ice is Cold, You Know, like, cold as ice and, you know, like, memes and trolling. And that's, like, exactly what this song generated. And so it's almost like she was aware of the react. She even put it out and maybe, like, courted that reaction a little bit, which is interesting. But I'm glad you brought up Father Figure. Cause I feel like part of the issue with this song for me is that it's called. I feel like it's the expectation of the song because it's called Eldest Daughter and it comes after Father Figure. And I think the eldest daughter thing isn't really that, like, big a part of the song. There's like, other songs about being an eldest daughter, like Hayley Williams, Kill Me, that, like, do that so much better. And I think that because it comes after Father Figure, it would have been so fascinating, in my view, if then we have this song where she kind of, like, flips the script and goes more inward and talks about a different aspect of being in the music industry, one that she's very much still navigating, which is the fact that she is this kind of, like, role model eldest daughter figure in this pop world where we talk about the Tay daughters, you know, Olivia Rodrigo, Sabrina Carpenter, Gracie Abrams, and how, like, because she is more senior than them, she's experienced some things first, whether it be the crazy intense scrutiny of her dating life or the sale of her masters, like, those are the things that are making her lamb to the slaughter. That would have been a much more interesting way to go with this track. And instead it's like, well, it's a love song from a. You know, from Taylor explaining to Travis what it's like to be an eldest daughter. But then even the phrase where she then says, this is like the end of the bridge when she says every youngest child felt they were raised up in the wild, I'm like, what are you talking about? Isn't the whole point that youngest children are, like, sheltered and protected in part by people like you, the eldest daughter? And I just, like. I felt she was just trying to, like, bring it back to the concept of the song, the premise that she had set forth, even though that premise doesn't really hold.

[D]

When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send.

[B]

Event invites and pin messages so no.

[D]

One forgets mom 60th. And never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone.

[B]

Learn [e-mail] no, and as I said, I am a youngest. So yes, we were discussing this. I definitely do not feel that way at all. I mean, you can go on Reddit and see that a lot of eldest daughters do feel some empathy with what she's describing, that they sort of had to grow up faster and sort of were a third parent, all those sorts of things, which. But yeah, youngest kids are not in the wild. That's not. Now she's. Maybe she's taught. Thinks she's talking to Travis himself, who is a bit wild, as we've seen on the field. But yeah, no, I agree. And I think that a lot of this song is a fantasy. That was sort of the point that I made when I was talking with Antonia. This comes from the line in the first song, the eldest daughter of a nobleman, Ophelia, lived in fantasy, right? And her idea of love here is also a fantasy because she says, I'm never gonna let you down, right? But that's not realistic. If you've been in a long term relationship, you let people, right? You can't promise you're never gonna let someone down, right? That's an unrealistic view of love. And so all of these promises she's making are, you know, noble and theoretical, but they're not like a real relationship where, heck, we are gonna have arguments, right? And you're gonna be frustrated and you're gonna think, oh, you left me out of this, right? And then I'm gonna. So, you know, I think that's interesting.

[C]

When you say that. It reminds me of. So obviously a lot has been made of the fact that the chorus is kind of an interpolation of White Horse where she sings I'm not a princess. This ain't a fairy tale, Right? And what you're saying about the unrealistic depiction of a relationship that she's like kind of painting in this chorus, it makes me feel like she still thinks it's a fairy tale or she thinks it's a fairy tale now more than ever, which is interesting. Cause I think this is supposed to be kind of like the older version of that song, but in fact, in some ways it's like. Like it's like she's regressing, right?

[B]

And the other thing we were discussing is she admits in this song that she lied to the guy twice and that her entire life up until this point has been an act, right? A pretend, right? And now she's saying, but now you can believe every Single thing I'm saying, right? That's. She keeps saying, now, now, now. Right. Forget everything that happened beforehand. Right now the fantasy starts. So it is a bit over the top in that respect.

[A]

Yeah. And I think. No. Yeah. Like, please continue. Yeah.

[C]

Oh, I was just gonna say, I think there's a. There's something funny happening in the bridge, too. As much as I enjoy the bridge, I think it's a really beautiful bridge, at least in terms of the way it sounds, where she talks about Ferris wheels and kisses and lilacs and things I said were dumb. And it's like, again, as someone who's been listening to Taylor Swift my whole life, you do not think these things are dumb. And I don't think you've ever said that they were dumb. Like, you know, I actually feel like the bridge. It's like talking about her being able to kind of, like, return to this innocent youthful love that she never really felt was available to her before. But, like, this is actually the exact kind of thing that she's been singing about her entire career. So the idea that she's been acting as though she doesn't like that stuff or like. Or that she's, like, created this shell that's so hard that she can't. It's like, I feel like she's always believed in love. Maybe there were, like, little slivers of her kind of like, you know, forgetting about love and, like, the past. You know, the last two albums, Midnights and Tortured Poets Department. But, like, yeah, there is something kind of weird, right?

[A]

I mean, she has a whole album called Lover. Yeah. I think, like, in my opinion that just, like. I don't know, I've been thinking as you guys have been talking, and it's just like, I think this song is emblematic of, like, the larger mechanics behind pop music. Why it, like, works really well sometimes and why it really doesn't. I think Taylor Swift oftentimes has kind of been you know, lauded for taking up, like, the spirit of the age or the zeitgeist and kind of putting that into her music. And I think she is kind of taking in this feeling of, like, loneliness in our culture and trying to kind of make it seem like she herself kind of taking this and putting it in this song. And I think whenever you try to make songs relatable, you know, because that's what pop music is, popular music. I mean, it's designed to be popular, but sometimes that's part of what makes it seem flat, I think, to me, and I think to a lot of People, without realizing it, is because it does seem a little. Just a bit disingenuous because she obviously does believe in love, and she does, you know, think these things. And I think a song, I think a better song that, like, what you were talking about of eldest daughter would have been maybe one of reassurance. Then she would take kind of the zeitgeist of loneliness and of disconnection, but she would bring her real perspective to it. And I think that she does have a lot of things to add to that conversation. But I think what made this song not work is just. Cause she added something that I think a lot of people have added, you know, like that Internet culture sucks, Cancel culture is terrible. And, you know, stuff like that. That, in my opinion, is probably the most disappointing part of the song for me.

[C]

Yeah. And then thinking of it in the context of the larger album, too, it's like, if she's making a commitment in this song to, like, you know, not only a commitment to Travis, but to, like, everyone else, to kind of be more open about these vulnerabilities and to. And forget about trying to be a bad bitch or a savage and just, like, be yourself. It's then really funny that we have songs later on the album, like Canceled, which are like, we're like, she's not like. At least in this song, like, you know, when people are upset about the kind of like, the slang that she uses in the lyrics that really dates the music. Like, at least she can say, like, oh, well, that's the whole point, you know, that I'm like, using this stuff, but it's not really me. But then she continues to use that exact kind of slang for the rest of the album in a way that feels like a lot. It feels pretty earnest to me when she's doing it. And Canceled.

[B]

Well, and actually romantic is pretty savage. That's a pretty savage song. Right. And it seems earnest. Right. It's not ironically savage. It's just so. No, I agree. And we talked about how she says the line that bothered me. I learned cautious discretion. She's never been cautiously. She's never had any caution. Right. You know, in her songs. I knew you were trouble when you walked in. Right. I mean, you know, she, she, her songs have a lot.

[A]

Or a getaway car, you know.

[B]

Right. Yeah, she just dives right into a thing. So, yeah, I, I, I think she tried something.

[A]

And I think, I think a better version of this song is just. This is me trying, you know, like, I mean, kind of doing. Yeah. Like, I think that's just the better version of her kind of taking the. The spirit of maybe, like, failure, sadness, loneliness that came with the pandemic and putting that into a song. And clearly something that didn't describe her, but it. But it came out feeling relatable because she made it clear that this might not have been her, but she wrote the entire song in a way that kind of seemed like it was for other people. It was a piece of advice or a warning. And not just, like, half earnest, half not earnest and, you know, hard to tell which it is. Yeah.

[B]

No. Yeah. I think maybe sticking in Travis was the problem because then it was hard to separate her from.

[A]

Yeah. Men are generally the problem, in my opinion.

[B]

While we have you here, Tyler, since my daughter is an aspiring writer and she's actually writing. I mean, my father was a newspaper editor for 30 years, and I long time had a blog on climate change. And Tony's actually writing for the student newspaper. But, you know, you.

[C]

I got my start in student newspapers, too.

[B]

Yeah. I'd love to hear sort of your. Your advice to young writers, particularly in this rapidly changing world of journalism. Some of your thoughts.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, gosh, I have so many pieces of advice. I think the first is, like, I still really do believe in, like, writing for a college publication. I think that, you know, we live in a time where, like, it's very easy to put your thoughts on Twitter or I guess I should say X or substack. Like, everyone can kind of have their own publication. But I do think that there's something. And it's not just, like, the camaraderie, although I think that's a big part of it. I do think that, like, actually working in a newsroom is a really, really useful experience. Like, writing shouldn't be. Often, like, when you're writing something, it's a pretty lonely thing. You're, like, kind of alone with your thoughts. But I think that the more that you can kind of sort of expose yourself to other people's writing styles, reporting styles get edited, you know, Like, I am, in addition to, you know, podcasting at the New Yorker and writing, I'm also a senior editor. And so I get to be on both sides of the process. And I think that I've learned so much about editing just by being edited myself and kind of seeing, like, how other people deal with it. So, like, when I turn something in and I think it's perfect, and they're like, actually, no, this intro is terrible. Or like, this. You think you're, like, really, like, cooking here with this argument. But it like doesn't make any sense.

[A]

No. And that was literally me last night editing my piece. Yeah.

[C]

It's so hard to yourself.

[A]

No, it's terrible. I got so I was like. It was my first article that I wrote and I wrote it. I co wrote it with one of my close friends and we got. What do we get? We got 170 comments on. Was very funny. A lot of them were suggestions on grammar. Apparently. AP really, really is very picky about apostrophes and commas and that's okay, you know, the more you know. But yes, it has been, it has been a journey and it's, it's yeah, editing. I always really like editing. But, but it's, it's good to hear that, you know, it's normal even for professional writers to get loads and loads of edits.

[C]

Oh yeah, no, I like edit like some of the greatest writers, you know, working today and like they, they go through like a rigorous editing process. There's, there's never a piece that doesn't need to be edited somehow. And like there are two different types of editing in my view. There's like the editing where like you're taking something that like isn't quite clear yet or isn't as good as it could be and you're making it, it a lot better. And then there's like the other kind of editing which is the most fun kind of editing to do. And that's when you have something that like is pretty remarkable and like you probably could just publish it and like everyone would love it. But like there are things that you can do in your seat as the editor to make that piece go from like an A to an A plus plus, whether it's like workshopping a joke or like, you know, like even just making the headline like a little bit more interesting. And so that's really fun where it's like, like because it's so subjective, like the piece is never, it's, you know, every, every piece I edit or every piece I write, it's like you could technically work on that for like a year and like still make it better every day, even if you think you've exhausted all of it. And so it's kind of a process that never ends. It just has, has to end at a certain point if you want to, you know, make a profit or get the news out. But yeah, I think that when you can collaborate with someone on just making something not just good, but like phenomenal when it's already like a really really incredible piece of text. That's always so much fun.

[A]

Yeah, no, yeah, exactly. And the thing that you're saying. Yeah. The thing that you said is just, like, you can always make it better. And like, apparently the thing that shocked me Most is that 170 is apparently really standard for our edits. Like, that's just like, like up to 200 even. Just because, like, I, I, there's, like, there's always something that, like, I, I, yeah, I'm shocked by, like, a lot of the editors at, at our. Even, like, the small slate that we have are just, like, really crazy good editors. And, yeah, I'm really excited to keep working with them. And I don't know if you have any other, like. I don't know. What's your favorite part of being a writer for the New Yorker?

[C]

That's a good question. I mean, I think there are a few different things. I mean, I think one thing that I really like is just kind of the way that the. It's like this. The cultural space that the magazine operates in. I think, like, I was mentioning earlier, like, the way that I write about Taylor, where it's like, like, you know, I am often drawing on, like, things that are happening in real life and, you know, like, stories about her life and kind of bringing. It's like, you would never just write a piece about the life of a showgirl. It's like you're writing about every album that came before it, every album that's, like, kind of in conversation with it. You're writing about Taylor herself, maybe every person she's ever dated or rumored to have dated. Like, every person she's been friends with. Like, you really can capture all of that because, you know, it's, you know, we're doing, like, real cultural criticism as opposed to just, like, straight up music criticism.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And. And, you know, I'm lucky enough that, like, at least in my case, like, the. Our pop music critic put out her review of the album, like, right after it came out. And so I was actually able to, like, take an extra couple days to, like, really sit with it. And, like, I always tell people that Taylor Swift's music, like, it's, she's, you know, she's a grower, not a shower. And so, you know, sometimes you'll listen to a song and you'll be like. And then, like, a day later, you're like, I cannot get that song out of my head.

[A]

And that was me with Lavender Haze. Like, totally. I really. Yeah, I love it now. But it took me, like, two Days. And then it was just like, dang. Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. But it's like, you have to find the balance because, like, no one wants to read a review of the life of a showgirl, like, two years after it came out. But, like, there is a certain luxury that at least I've been able to experience, which is having, like. Like, a bit more time to sit with something and to like, watch my own mind change, either just by re. Listening to the thing or writing about it and then realizing, like, oh, this actually reminds me of, like, this other song she did. Oh. Like, these two songs are in conversation. This is a much more complex track than I thought.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Yeah.

[C]

Like, that's been. And I'm sure, like, you guys feel that way on the. On the podcast all the time, where it's just like, as you're breaking down a song that you thought you hated, you're realizing, like, how, like, kind of miraculous it is and, like, how much work went into it and, like, just the layout, which is why it's so funny. I know. That was me with Father Figure.

[A]

Yeah, no, it took me. It took me like, a few. A few listens and even my dad kind of decoding. Oh, my gosh. Mentioned podcast to kind of, like, really understand, like, exactly what was happening with the whole song. And now I really love Father Figure.

[B]

Yeah. And the. I mean, yeah, it took me listening to it a lot to realize the connection with Getaway Car. Car, which has its own key change and talks about her stealing the keys to that car. Right. And so, yeah, she.

[D]

She.

[B]

You know, I. We talk about. On this. You know, people have a personal reaction to a song, and, you know, that's. You can't argue with that. And then there's how did the public react? And then there's this abstract concept of, well, but is it a good song? Is there. You know, and that's complicated, but she puts a lot of work in. And, you know, if she's writing a song with Max Martin and Shellbach that they did put a lot of thought into, it doesn't necessarily mean they succeeded. Right. But to say on, you know, the surface of it is the all that's there, it probably deserves a little more time.

[C]

Yeah. No, I totally agree.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, we should. I think this has been, you know, a great conversation. Really appreciate.

[A]

Thank you for giving us time talking yours.

[C]

Yeah, no, this is so much fun. I could talk about this all day. It's truly my favorite thing to talk about.

[A]

Yes. No, it's so interesting. This is so much better than physics and math class. I can't lie.

[B]

I'm gonna stop here. See you next time.

[E]

From the parents behind Law and Order comes a mystery the whole family can enjoy. Patrick Picklebottom Everyday Mysteries Step into the whimsical world of Patrick Picklebottom, a precocious 11 year old with a love for reading and an uncanny ability to solve mysteries. Inspired by the beloved children's book of the same name, this podcast vividly brings Patrick's tales of deduction and everyday adventures to life as he unravels baffling enigmas and solves clever cases. Patrick Picklebottom Everyday Mysteries is perfect for kids and is just as entertaining for grown ups who love a good mystery. The whole family can listen now. Wherever you get your podcasts.