Why Swift’s Love Story is Romeo and Juliet meets Inception

Summary

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Decoding Taylor Swift — Episode Summary

Episode Title

Why Swift’s Love Story is Romeo and Juliet Meets Inception
Podcast: Decoding Taylor Swift
Hosts: Joe Romm & Toni Romm
Date: March 25, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into Taylor Swift’s breakout hit “Love Story”, exploring its literary connections, storytelling mechanics, and the psychological tools Swift uses to craft a narrative that’s both classically inspired and uniquely viral. Joe and Toni draw parallels between Swift’s songwriting and Shakespearean drama, with Toni providing live acoustic renditions of song excerpts to illustrate their points. The discussion further examines how “Love Story” functions as an example of meta-storytelling—layering fantasy, reality, and self-awareness in a manner the hosts compare to the film "Inception." Listeners are invited to learn how to use Swiftian storytelling devices to enhance their own communication and content.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Shakespearean Connection and Modern Rewriting

(00:25–01:11)

• Joe opens by reinforcing his view of Taylor Swift as a “modern day Shakespeare,” praising her “ambitious declaration” to rewrite the world’s most famous love story and, crucially, to change its ending from tragedy to hope.
  • Quote (Joe Romm, 00:41): “Her ambitious declaration that I can rewrite the story, the most famous love story perhaps of all time. And I’m just gonna change it.”
• Toni points out that the album Fearless catapulted Swift’s career, with “Love Story” becoming a “monster hit” and a turning point in Swift’s songwriting.
• Joe shares striking streaming stats: both the original “Love Story” and “Taylor’s Version” topped 1.1 billion streams each (01:39–01:59).

2. Interconnectedness With Other Taylor Swift Songs

(02:01–03:05)

• Joe suggests “Love Story” isn’t based on real love but is instead a crafted story—a storytelling device Swift carries throughout her career.
• The song connects to later works like “But Daddy I Love Him” (discussed in Episode 5) and even to “The Fate of Ophelia,” highlighting Swift’s penchant for recasting tragic heroines with empowering endings.

3. Song Genesis and Personal Narrative

(03:08–03:51)

• Joe relays Swift’s own story: the song was written in “twentyish minutes” after her only epic teenage tantrum.
  • Quote (Taylor Swift via Joe, 03:32): “I remember screaming something like, but, Daddy, I love him, and running out… and then I sat down on the floor and wrote this song.”

4. Live Acoustic Excerpts & Literary Technique Breakdown

a. Verse Analysis: Anaphora & Immersion

(05:06–07:09)

• Toni sings part of the first verse.
• Discussion shifts to Swift’s use of anaphora (“See the lights, see the party, see the ball gowns”), directly commanding the listener and immersing them in scene.
  • Quote (Toni, 06:03): “That’s part of what makes it so, so good is you feel immersed.”
• The song’s “circular” structure—repeating the opening line at the end—is highlighted as a deliberate storytelling choice.

b. Fantasy, Flashback, and Metatextual Layers

(07:21–08:13; 23:02–24:18)

• The hosts note the entire story is an “imaginary flashback,” with Swift explicitly signaling this via the liner note message: “Someday I’ll find this.”
• Later, Joe and Toni discuss the song’s storytelling layers, likening it to Inception with “a dream within a flashback.”
  • Quote (Joe, 23:08): “We’re in an imaginary flashback. Oh, my God. And she’s asked the boy to now close his eyes and imagine…”

5. Romantic Tropes, Allusions, and Meta-Storytelling

(12:36–15:54)

• The chorus analyzes the power dynamic: although Swift writes herself as the “princess” and wants to be rescued, she’s also the active narrator controlling the story—consistent with her meta-narrative style.
• The hosts identify recurring themes in Swift’s songwriting: breaking the fourth wall, circular storytelling, and “meta" songs ("Our Song", "You Belong With Me", "Mastermind", "The Archer").
  • Quote (Joe, 14:41): “This is a meta song. And she has already started at a young age writing meta songs.”
  • Quote (Toni, 15:31): “We’re part of this. We’re like, watching this all unfold.”

6. Intertextual Allusions – The Scarlet Letter and Beyond

(21:42–22:20)

• They discuss Swift’s use of “scarlet letter,” rebuffing critics who felt the lyric misunderstood Hawthorne’s work, arguing Swift employs it as a metaphorical shorthand for shame and taboo (21:54–22:14).

7. Time, Tense, and Emotional Progression

(24:25–25:03)

• Toni catches Swift’s deft switch from present to past tense within the song, marking a tonal shift as the narration moves from immersion to reflection.

8. Fantasy vs. Reality: Happy Endings and Cultural Myths

(17:19–17:46; 25:27–33:59)

• The hosts dissect the cultural trope of marriage as life’s “happy ending.” Joe contrasts fairy tale closure (“they lived happily ever after”) with the reality that change and growth continue.

  • Quote (Joe, 17:46): “To be honest, that’s just the beginning. And they all lived happily ever after is the phrase in the fairy tales which implies that’s the boring part. But it isn’t.”

• The bridge and final chorus (sung by Toni) are discussed as the narrative’s “cray cray” fantasy moment: the male protagonist proposes, the father approves, and the song achieves its mythic happy ending.

  • Quote (Joe, 29:33): “Okay, so this is cray cray, right? That’s not regular. She’s, like, not being regular.”

• Joe points out how the ending circles back: “We were both young when I first saw you,” echoing the construction of fairy tales and emphasizing yearning for a future fulfillment.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “Her ambitious declaration that I can rewrite the story, the most famous love story perhaps of all time. And I’m just gonna change it.”
  — Joe Romm (00:41)
• “See the lights, see the party, the ball gowns. That’s…a very, very powerful poetic technique…She’s commanding us.”
  — Toni Romm (06:03)
• “This is a meta song…She breaks the fourth wall a lot, in other words. She is writing this story out loud.”
  — Joe Romm (14:41–15:06)
• “We’re in an imaginary flashback…Oh, my God. And she’s asked the boy to now close his eyes and imagine that they’ve escaped the town. So she’s doing a dream within the flashback.”
  — Joe Romm (23:08)
• “Is this in my head? I don’t know what to think…”
  — Toni (singing, 28:36)
• “Just to make sure…we aren’t stuck in believing this is a fantasy… she leaps ahead back in time to repeat the opening line. Cause we were both young when I first saw you.”
  — Joe Romm (34:09)

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Structural Highlights

• Song Excerpts: Toni performs several live verses and choruses to illustrate points (see 05:29, 11:18, 12:52, 18:09, 26:01, 28:36).
• Literary Analysis: Focus on storytelling devices such as anaphora, tense shifts, circular story structure.
• Intertextual Depth: Explores allusions to "Romeo and Juliet", Hawthorne's "The Scarlet Letter", and even "Inception" as an analogy for layered storytelling.
• Meta-Narrative Awareness: Recurring motifs of self-referential writing, breaking the fourth wall, and storytelling as an exercise in constructing reality from fantasy.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:25–01:11 — Swift as modern Shakespeare & song intro
• 01:39–01:59 — Historical impact: streaming stats
• 03:08–03:51 — Songwriting origin story
• 05:29–07:09 — Verse performance and technique breakdown (anaphora)
• 11:18–13:12 — Pre-chorus, chorus, and narrative analysis
• 14:41–15:31 — Fourth wall & meta-song discussion
• 21:42–22:14 — "Scarlet Letter" lyric and cultural context
• 23:02–24:18 — "Dream within a flashback": Inception analogy
• 28:36–29:33 — Bridge, proposal, and happy ending
• 34:09–35:20 — The song’s closing line and the hopeful future

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Conclusion

The episode positions “Love Story” as a masterclass in viral, layered storytelling—both a reinvention of a classic tragedy and a personal myth-in-the-making. The host’s insights into songwriting, narrative structure, and literary alchemy reveal why Swift’s work resonates so broadly and endures so powerfully. For writers and creators, the techniques decoded here—commanding language, circular structure, fantasy layering, and meta-narrative—are highlighted as tools to transform one’s own communication into something just as persuasive, memorable, and shareable.

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Transcript

[Jo Rome]

Hi, I'm Jo Rome and I'm his daughter Toni.

[Jo's Dad]

Welcome to Decoding Taylor Swift where you'll learn the storytelling tools Swift uses that make her a modern day Shakespeare, but

[Jo Rome]

can make you a better communicator so you can drive your mission and build your tribe.

[Jo's Dad]

This podcast will not only transform how you think about Swift's songs, but also give you the life changing tools to lead, connect and change the world.

[Jo Rome]

In this episode we are going to be talking about Love Story, which I'm sure my dad will have lots to say because he is the big Shakespeare fan that I've ever met in my entire life and I go to a university that is full of them and they are very open about it. My dad still takes the Shakespeare crazy.

[Jo's Dad]

I have called her a modern day Shakespeare. I did that in my TED Talk at the age of 17. Her ambitious declaration that I can rewrite the story, the most famous love story perhaps of all time. And I'm just gonna change it.

[Jo Rome]

She did modernly. And she just changes the ending too.

[Jo's Dad]

Just gonna change the ending.

[Jo Rome]

Double suicide. It's like, not that.

[Jo's Dad]

No, this is a marriage.

[Jo Rome]

It's almost nice. It's almost just completely not a double suicide.

[Jo's Dad]

And so this is an important song for Taylor. It's really. You can learn a lot about her

[Jo Rome]

career took off fully. I mean like this album Fearless really rocketed her and it was because multiple songs on the album were really just mega hits. This song, you belong with me. Even Fearless.

[Jo's Dad]

Yeah, this is a monster song. This according to Swifty Stats. I checked this song last year hit a billion streams for each version. The original and the Taylor's version.

[Jo Rome]

Damn.

[Jo's Dad]

And it's chugging along it now. They both have 1.1 billion each.

[Jo Rome]

Jeez.

[Jo's Dad]

So people like both versions of this

[Jo Rome]

song and I'll be singing the original. I mean, it's hard to tell but

[Jo's Dad]

you know, I think you can learn a lot about storytelling from 17 year old Taylor because this is a song about a story. It's not a song about a real love between two people, as she makes clear repeatedly in the song, but it is a story she is telling and it's a great story and obviously people like to listen to it. And you know, I think it's a killer song and it's also important because it connects to many of her other songs. It connects to But Daddy, I love him.

[Jo Rome]

Yes,

[Jo's Dad]

and we talked about that in episode five. So after you listen to this, you

[Jo Rome]

should go back to episode five of season one, being these two songs are in conversation with each other.

[Jo's Dad]

They are. And then this song is also connected to the fate of Ophelia, which is also a rewrite, or at least taking an unhappy ending and Taylor switches it for her to a happy ending, although

[Jo Rome]

it follows the narrative less closely.

[Jo's Dad]

And I'll just read one thing that Taylor said in what she said, this song. I wrote it right after one of my one. My one epic teenage tantrum that I ever threw in my whole life. I'm gonna be skeptical that there was only one Taylor, but okay. And I remember screaming something like, but, Daddy, I love him, and running out and storming into my room and slamming the door. And then I sat down on the floor and wrote this song. And she told Time magazine she wrote this in 20ish minutes.

[Jo Rome]

Damn.

[Jo's Dad]

So this just spooled out of her. And you are gonna get a treat, which is you're gonna get to hear Antonia.

[Jo Rome]

Oh, hi.

[Jo's Dad]

AKA Tony sing it. And at a time when she is not much older than Taylor was.

[Jo Rome]

I was the age that Taylor was when this album came out, which makes me feel, in comparison, really, really unachieved. Well, it's okay, because we're gonna get there. I'm not me on the Billboard 100.

[Jo's Dad]

Well, I would just say that we shouldn't compare ourselves to maybe one of the greatest singer songwriters of all time.

[Jo Rome]

So you're saying that I'm not one of the greatest singer songwriters of all time? Not just because I'm a woman.

[Jo's Dad]

No, she's a woman. So don't think I could be.

[Jo Rome]

So it's because I'm brunette.

[Jo's Dad]

Yes, that's it.

[Jo Rome]

It's cause I'm Italian. That's what it is. It's terrible.

[Jo's Dad]

I think it's. Cause you didn't. It's terrible how it should want to be. You didn't pursue that. That was not. She really wanted to be.

[Jo Rome]

I really don'. Poetry and songwriting. I can't lie. I mean, well, I love songwriting and I love poetry. I'm just not good at them. So I can do parodies of songs. Like, for my senior showcase, I was the opening act because I did, like, a comedic version of Good Morning Baltimore. But I can't really just. I can't just sit down and write a song. But it's great that she did it. It's a good song.

[Jo's Dad]

Well, let's start with the first verse.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah, well, sure.

[Jo's Dad]

And then we'll talk about it.

[Jo Rome]

Allergy season is underway. So here's the disclaimer that if you don't like my singing, navigate on the same platform that you are surely on to the actual song, which you can legally do and we legally can on.

[Toni (Jo's daughter)]

We were both young when I first saw you I closed my eyes and the flashback starts. I'm still standing there on a balcony

[Jo Rome]

in summer air Boun. Bow, bow.

[Toni (Jo's daughter)]

See the lights, see the party, the ball gown See you make your way through the crowd and say hello Little did I know.

[Jo's Dad]

Yay.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah.

[Jo's Dad]

Alrighty.

[Jo Rome]

So part of the power of this verse, just immediately looking at it, is, see the light, see the part of the ball gowns. See you make your way through the crowd. That is. What's that thing that we talked about? Anaphora. And that's also a command. It's very easy for. It's a very, very powerful, like, poetic technique to say, like. Like, I remember it all too well. Like, remember it. Like, remember. The same command is used here, but more explicitly, you know, see the light, see the part of the ball gown. It's all written in the first person. So she's kind of getting you, like, into it. That's part of what makes it so. So good is you feel immersed. It's not looking back and say. And saying, I saw the lights, I saw the party, I saw the ball gowns. That would kind of tinge it with melancholy, and it would also remove it. What we're taught in my creative writing class is just cut that out, you know, See the lights, see the party, the ball gowns. That's a powerful thing to say, you know, like, she's commanding us.

[Jo's Dad]

She's done the repetition of the word see and she flips it.

[Jo Rome]

But it's the reason that Satisfied in Hamilton also works because she explicitly says, you know, I close my eyes and the flashback starts. I'm standing there. And you immediately know, like, it's like a flip.

[Jo's Dad]

Right, right. And what's interesting is the first line. We were both young when I first saw you. This is one of those songs where the first line is the last line.

[Jo Rome]

It is, right? Yeah.

[Toni (Jo's daughter)]

Combat.

[Jo Rome]

I'm ready for combat.

[Jo's Dad]

She just doesn't do this by accident, folks. There's always a reason, and there'll be a reason.

[Jo Rome]

Reminiscing.

[Jo's Dad]

Yeah. And we will. We will get to that. But it's a circular story. That's the point. First line, same as last line. And I close my eyes and the flashback starts. Now, of course, it's an imaginary flashback, because the whole thing is imaginary.

[Jo Rome]

Sure.

[Jo's Dad]

And in fact, the secret message hidden in the liner notes is, someday I'll find this. So this is her Imagining. Yes, a flashback.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah, it's a fantasy.

[Jo's Dad]

A fantasy of her being in the Romeo and Juliet story.

[Jo Rome]

But particularly when you're like a young singer songwriter. Like what? You just haven't had that much life experience. So it's easy to write fantasy because you also are at the peak of your imagination.

[Jo's Dad]

Right. And of course, on a balcony in summer air, the famous balcony scene in Romeo and Juliet. Right. That's the, that's the first idea here. Being thrown out before we get to the chorus.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah. Or the pre chorus.

[Jo's Dad]

Or the pre chorus. We are being sponsored by.

[Jo Rome]

Oh my God.

[Jo's Dad]

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[Jo Rome]

Yes, we are. And btws, we have a discount code. So if you go to Liquid iv, your first purchase, you just write in decoding you know when it's true.

[Jo's Dad]

Yes, it is true. But here is a testimonial ad from my daughter Toni.

[Jo Rome]

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[Jo's Dad]

And now we're back.

[Jo Rome]

Not really, though.

[Jo's Dad]

All right, let's dive into what, the pre chorus. Yes, sure. Just to say the pre chorus is introduced.

[Jo Rome]

You want me to go in? Yeah.

[Toni (Jo's daughter)]

Little did I know.

[Jo Rome]

And it keeps you hooked. And it's kind of like her mind is racing because, you know, well.

[Jo's Dad]

And little did I know is now foreshadow. So she's done a flashback. Well, she's foreshadowing in the flashback that it's going to be a big deal.

[Jo Rome]

Right, right.

[Toni (Jo's daughter)]

That you were Romeo, you were throwing pebbles. And my daddy said, stay away from Julia. And I was crying on the staircase, begging you, please don't go. And I said,

[Jo's Dad]

there you go. You nailed it. So we didn't know. We got a little warning with the balcony and summer air, but here, now we've entered the Romeo and Juliet story.

[Jo Rome]

Yes, we have.

[Jo's Dad]

Even though it's not actually the Romeo and Juliet story, because Romeo doesn't throw pebbles. You were Romeo, you were throwing pebbles. Okay, so he doesn't throw pebbles in the original, but the idea, that's the modern version, you know, secretly throwing pebbles at someone's window rather than being outside their balcony. Now, of course, another key reason why I like the song is it's got her father in it. This is one of her songs about the father who starts being oppositional. Very oppositional. And of course, in the original, these were feuding. The Montagues and the Capulets famously feuding. It, of course, becomes a great tragedy and a lot of people die. And then we get the dramatic scenes. You know, her father says to. To Romeo, stay away from Juliet. And she's crying on the staircase, please don't go. And then we get the chorus.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah.

[Toni (Jo's daughter)]

And I said, romeo, take me somewhere we can be alone. I'll be waiting. All there's left to do is run. You'll be the prince and I'll be the princess. It's a little love story, baby. Just say yes.

[Jo's Dad]

Yeah.

[Jo Rome]

How about that?

[Jo's Dad]

Yeah. That's great. Okay, so this is interesting.

[Jo Rome]

It is.

[Jo's Dad]

This. This song is a tension between her controlling things. And in other words, she's stage managing. She's writing this story. And in this story, she's telling Romeo what to do over and over and over again, but she's still wanting to be rescued. So, you know, and this is a tension we will see throughout her career where she will write these songs, but she's also the director, the writer, the singer. Right?

[Jo Rome]

Yeah.

[Jo's Dad]

So she. Simultaneously.

[Jo Rome]

She's a silly billy.

[Jo's Dad]

Yes. And this.

[Jo Rome]

This is.

[Jo's Dad]

You know, she's 17. So, you know, this is really. I think.

[Jo Rome]

I think most writers have that complex. I can't lie. I mean, it's not in the complex. That's what you have to be when you're a writer is you have to be able to pull the strings but also be like, oh, fuck. It'd be so much better if the characters did this. But they can't. But they can't. You should have a character that, like. But, like, it's cool if you have characters that are, like, serving as kind of the envoy for the reader or like the yearner. It's always an interesting tension that you can have. I shouldn't say should, because there are very interesting stories where there is no analog. And it's like the talented Mr. Ripley is one, where Ripley is just a crazy freaking dude who just does insane shit and the reader has no analog and all you can do is just read. And it's like, what the hell is happening? He just goes around doing random crap.

[Jo's Dad]

This. This, like, this is a meta song. Right? And. And. And she. She has already started at a young age writing meta song. She wrote our song, which, as we discussed, is a meta song. And she wrote. I mean, arguably, you Belong with me is a meta song.

[Jo Rome]

Certainly Mastermind is very meta, you know?

[Jo's Dad]

Yeah. So she's always.

[Jo Rome]

And also the archer is very meta. Yeah, it's almost totally meta.

[Jo's Dad]

So. And. And I think that she understands that, people. She breaks the fourth wall a lot, in other words. And she does. So she is writing this story out loud. All that's left, you know, I'll be waiting. All that's left to do is run. You'll be the prince.

[Jo Rome]

We're part of this. We're like, watching this all unfold.

[Jo's Dad]

And then she says, it's a love story, baby. Right. In other words, she's pleading that this. She's saying, this isn't a tragedy, right? No, this isn't Romeo and Juliet. This is a love story version. And all you have to do is say yes. And magically, that's happy ending. Right?

[Jo Rome]

Right. Because that's. I mean, that's just how this works. That's how, like, life works.

[Jo's Dad]

This is the fantasy.

[Jo Rome]

That's how it's happened for me.

[Jo's Dad]

And this is her, you know, someday I'll find this.

[Jo Rome]

And they always say us, obviously.

[Jo's Dad]

And in some sense, you could argue finding the right one.

[Jo Rome]

Right.

[Jo's Dad]

If you think there's a right one out there, then all of the other ones you might view as tragic.

[Jo Rome]

Right.

[Jo's Dad]

And that's just a mistake, of course, because those are the things that lead you to become the person that helps you be. Meet the person and love, you know, and fall in love with you. Right. So you. You. These aren't. It's not a tribal.

[Jo Rome]

I would also say that mindset might steer you away from the right person altogether, because thinking that, you know, at the first sign of trouble, thinking, oh, this isn't the person for me, like, it could be the person for you, you just. I mean, there's never gonna not be trouble. That's why I don't believe in soulmates, because there's. I think that we can all connect with a wide variety of people, but I just think we have to be in the right circumstances, and we have to be able. Like, there's some people who I guess we're more compatible with, but it's always. It's always a struggle. It's. Are you ready to be compatible with, like, yourself in a comfortable situation?

[Jo's Dad]

We change over time. And so the person who might be right for you at 19 is not going to be the person who's right for you at 29. You're not going to be the same person.

[Jo Rome]

And so what do you think about marriage?

[Jo's Dad]

Well, that's the challenge is finding the person you can grow with and accept the fact that you. You can't expect people not to change. Right. And grow. In fact, presumably you want to be with someone who isn't stagnant.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah.

[Jo's Dad]

So. Yeah. And I think that. And that's, of course, the problem with the general fantasy that the love story ends when they get married. Right. And then they all live happily as a child.

[Jo Rome]

To be honest, that's just the beginning.

[Jo's Dad]

And they all lived happily ever after is the phrase in the fairy tales, which implies that's the boring part. Right. But it isn't. No one just lives happily ever after. Obviously. We're human beings. It's not possible. Okay, let's go to the next.

[Toni (Jo's daughter)]

All right, so I sneak out to the garden to see you. We keep quiet Cause we're dead if they knew so close your eyes Escape this town for a little while oh, oh. Cause you were Romeo I Was a scarlet letter. And my daddy said, stay away from Juliet. But you were everything to me. I was begging you, please don't go. And I said, yeah.

[Jo Rome]

Anyway. Yeah.

[Jo's Dad]

Yeah. So we got the garden again. She's into gardens. She was into, you know, in Cruel Summer, which we've heard, you know, there's

[Jo Rome]

always snuck out to the garden gate. And every night last summer, she has

[Jo's Dad]

a lot of gardens. In the original. There's a garden also.

[Jo Rome]

Garden is, you know, kind of a metaphor for the bush around.

[Jo's Dad]

Of a giant man, you are totally bringing up naughty bits stuff.

[Jo Rome]

It's not. Not okay. And here's the thing is the idea of. Of losing innocence, or playing with innocence is a very common theme. And here's the thing. You know, we might have younger listeners, but the truth is that when you get to even a high school AP lit class, like, you're gonna talk about how sexuality and Roman intertwine in a lot of pieces of literature. And I was jarred by that at first, but I realized that it is an important thing to talk about because it's just another facet of who, as human beings, we are. We're like kind of animals at the end of the day. But we're very funny and sophisticated, and certainly there is a lot to be said that has a great deal of influence on who we are as people outside of our romantic and sexual lives.

[Jo's Dad]

Well, you know, the sneaking around is definitely part of the original Romeo and Juliet. And there's a. You know, the garden is basically where the balcony scene takes place. The garden. We've also talked about Garden of Eden. That is, again, this mythic paradise place. Fairy tale we keep. But then, of course, it gets serious. We keep quiet because we're dead. If they knew. Well, that's the original.

[Jo Rome]

They're just dramatic. I mean, they're very dramatic. Like. Like as a teenager, she's dramatic.

[Jo's Dad]

So it's like. But in the original, they are dead. Yeah, quite literally.

[Jo Rome]

And then they do die.

[Jo's Dad]

Spoiler alert.

[Jo Rome]

I'm so sorry. You guys just.

[Jo's Dad]

Oh, you did it, too. You did it.

[Jo Rome]

Oh, my gosh.

[Jo's Dad]

Spoiler alert.

[Jo Rome]

But they die at the end. I was, like, so sorry to tell you.

[Jo's Dad]

They never would have known from the title, the tragedy of Romeo and Juliet.

[Jo Rome]

Well, one of them could have died, the other could have lived. But, you know, it's kind of better that they both die, you know?

[Jo's Dad]

Well, let's not get too.

[Jo Rome]

I'm a big fan of killing off my characters in my stories. I feel like it's a good way

[Jo's Dad]

to Planning on writing a lot of tragedies, I take it.

[Jo Rome]

That's not tragedy. It's just writing a good story. That's what I call it, a good story.

[Jo's Dad]

I see.

[Jo Rome]

Well, look, all stories end in death. All people end in death.

[Jo's Dad]

Well, no, no, no. To be clear, we're talking Shakespeare. We're talking Shakespeare characters die. Shakespeare's comedies end in marriage, and the tragedies end in death.

[Jo Rome]

That is very true.

[Jo's Dad]

The defining feature of death.

[Jo Rome]

And then the marriages die.

[Jo's Dad]

Well, but they also lead to birth.

[Jo Rome]

It's true.

[Jo's Dad]

Right, so this is the immortality issue, right? This is how you get to immortality in the old days.

[Jo Rome]

That is very true.

[Jo's Dad]

And, yeah, this is. This is.

[Jo Rome]

Well, yeah, it's true.

[Jo's Dad]

Now,

[Jo Rome]

not to completely interrupt you, but I will say that it's interesting. I was a Scarlet Letter, because, you know, that is. She's not. That's not the first time she's used Scarlet Letter. I mean, this is actually the first time.

[Jo's Dad]

This is the first time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jo Rome]

And then the next time in New Romantics is the second time, because she just likes that. And I think it's a very potent reference and allusion to the Scarlet Letter, which is a book about, you know, this. This woman who commits adultery, basically, and she's forced to wear a Scarlet Letter. A. So everybody knows what she's done.

[Jo's Dad]

Well, it's public shaming. The Scarlet Letter. Hester Prynne, Nathaniel Hawthorne.

[Jo Rome]

I haven't read it.

[Jo's Dad]

I know. We've discussed this more than once. By the way, when she came out with this song, she was young. She was criticized for. Well, you don't understand the Scarlet Letter because this isn't what it's about. And they kind of missed the point. She's just being metaphorical. She's talking about this idea that the Scarlet Letter is metaphorical shaming. And she's been shamed for the boys, that she has gone out with her father by her papa, by her own papa. And. But the other interesting thing is close your eyes. Escape this town for a little while.

[Jo Rome]

So she's like, telling him to, like, dream.

[Jo's Dad]

We're. Now we're in a flashback, but we're

[Jo Rome]

in a dream within the flashback.

[Jo's Dad]

We're in an imaginary flashback. Oh, my God. And she's asked the boy to now close his eyes and imagine that they've escaped the town. So she's doing.

[Jo Rome]

A lot's happening.

[Jo's Dad]

By the way, this is, like, one of your favorite movies. This is like, what?

[Jo Rome]

Never Let Me Go?

[Jo's Dad]

No, no, no, no. This is Inception. This is another layer Down. This is another layer down.

[Jo Rome]

This is another layer of reality. This isn't even a layer of another layer of reality.

[Jo's Dad]

Yeah, she's going to another layer down. And one day I'm gonna write a

[Jo Rome]

story and it's gonna have like 12 layers, but it's gonna be easier to navigate than Inception. I mean, like, I navigated it, but that's only because I'm like, locked in.

[Jo's Dad]

It was a lot. But there are four.

[Jo Rome]

There are four layers.

[Jo's Dad]

Yeah.

[Jo Rome]

And then there was the flashback to the. When they were in the other layer. But that's not another layer.

[Jo's Dad]

And like Inception, these are also all imaginary, right?

[Jo Rome]

Sure. Well, the entire movie of Inception, I guess, is imaginary because none of it happened because it's an imaginary story.

[Jo's Dad]

That's, you know, that's a meta.

[Jo Rome]

That's another layer. Oh, my God.

[Jo's Dad]

But. And we got a but here. But you were everything to me now, as in Romeo and Juliet.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah.

[Jo's Dad]

They have gone from just meeting.

[Jo Rome]

Wait, hold on.

[Jo's Dad]

What?

[Jo Rome]

I just realized that the first bit is in present tense. Like, she starts in present tense and then. And then. So in the verses, she's in present. And then the pre chorus, she switches to retrospective, which brings the tone of the story. I completely miss that. That she's. I mean, she's switching from past tense to present tense, which is. You do. For very specific reasons. So it's showed that it ended. Right. She's analyzing this experience as she goes, which is yet another level.

[Jo's Dad]

And also, this happened. She went from just meeting this guy.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah.

[Jo's Dad]

To you're everything to me.

[Jo Rome]

Right. Which is normal, I think.

[Jo's Dad]

Well, she's known for going.

[Jo Rome]

She falls sometimes, like, with my best friends. I'm like, wow. Like, I love you. You're so cool. So.

[Jo's Dad]

And I was begging you, please don't go. Despite the fact that we're dead. If they knew. So, you know, it's a real. In this imaginary thing, which is a version of the original Romeo and Juliet. But this is the serious part. In theory. There's something at stake here. Right. There's something at stake keeping them apart. It's not just. Right.

[Jo Rome]

Right.

[Jo's Dad]

And then we get the. The. The. The chorus again.

[Jo Rome]

We do get the chorus again.

[Toni (Jo's daughter)]

Romeo, take me somewhere we can be alone I'll be waiting. All there's left to do is run. You'll be the prince and I'll be the princess. It's a love story, baby, just say yes. Romeo, save me. They're trying to tell me how to fight this love is difficult but it's real. Don't Be afraid. We'll make it out of this mess. It's a love story, baby. Just say yes.

[Jo's Dad]

Yeah.

[Jo Rome]

Is that okay? Okay, great. So it's good. It's. She changes it up a little bit. She says, this love is difficult. Oh, they're trying to tell me how to feel. Ugh. Don't be afraid. We'll make it out of this mess. It's pretty straightforward, you know, but the

[Jo's Dad]

key point is it's real.

[Jo Rome]

It's real.

[Jo's Dad]

This looks.

[Jo Rome]

But it's real. Which is, of course, within the imagining.

[Jo's Dad]

Right. That's the supreme irony.

[Jo Rome]

Right? Right, Right.

[Jo's Dad]

Is she's imagining.

[Jo Rome]

She's imagining, but this is a real imagination. Like, this feels so. Like this is so real. Like, you have to understand it's like imaginary, but it's real. Like, do you understand that? Like, yeah, it's pretty easy, right?

[Jo's Dad]

Which is particularly if you watch the music video, of course, which we can't ignore, which is in fact a going back in time music video to some unknown era 100, 200, 300 years ago. But whatever it is, it's not now. So, yes, she is teetering between fantasy and reality in using the word it's real.

[Jo Rome]

But it is.

[Toni (Jo's daughter)]

But it is.

[Jo's Dad]

But it is. But it is.

[Jo Rome]

Should we go onto the bridge? Because the bridge is the most interesting part.

[Jo's Dad]

Yes. It's a tiny bridge.

[Jo Rome]

It is.

[Jo's Dad]

Tiny bridge.

[Jo Rome]

I can go straight from the bridge into the course because that's really the extra bridge.

[Jo's Dad]

Okay.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Shifting a little money here, a little there, and hoping it all works out? Well, with the name your price tool from Progressive, you can be a better budgeter and potentially lower your insurance bill, too. You tell Progressive what you want to pay for car insurance and they'll help you find options within your budget. Try it [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law not available in all states. Okay.

[Toni (Jo's daughter)]

I get tired of waiting Wondering if you were ever coming around My faith in you was fading When I met you on the outskirts of town and I said romeo, save me up well, I'll just start Romeo, save me I've been feeling so alone I keep waiting for you but you never come as this in my head I don't know what to think he knelt to the ground and pulled out a ring and said marry me, Juliet, you'll never have to be alone. I love you and that's all I really know. I talk to your dad, go pick out a white dress. It's a love story, baby. Just say yes.

[Jo's Dad]

Okay, so this is cray cray, right?

[Jo Rome]

That's not regular. She's like, not being regular.

[Jo's Dad]

This is so crazy, right? You know, right?

[Jo Rome]

So she's like, she's like going to the outskirts of town. She's like, oh. Then she's going to the outskirts. Like, clearly he's in contact with her. She's just so she's.

[Jo's Dad]

She. She get. But I got tired of waiting Wondering if you're ever coming my. When I'm. I mean, tired of waiting. What? What?

[Jo Rome]

She's.

[Jo's Dad]

How much time?

[Jo Rome]

First of all, like, you're not expecting to get married to somebody you meet in like your, like your, your teens. Like, you're. They're not gonna propose to you like, immediately. That would be crazy, right?

[Jo's Dad]

But I got tired of waiting. She has jumped ahead in time still in the flashback. Yeah, but she's jumped ahead some imaginary amount of time that she's been waiting for him that we haven't seen. We just know. Wondering if you were ever coming around. My faith in you was fading. So again, time passing when I met you on the outskirts of time. And again she wants to be saved, which is the, the passive role, but she's ordering him to do it, which is again the active role, the role of the writer, the director, the producer, whatever you want to call it. And I've been feeling so alone I keep waiting for you and then. Is this in my head? I mean, think about.

[Jo Rome]

Oh my God. Think about in her head. She's like scared that it's in her head. As it's in her head.

[Jo's Dad]

She's so is again Inception. Like she's dropped out of her imaginary reality into a questioning whether her imaginary reality is real or not, which she knows it isn't. So I just give her a lot of credit. This is a very meta song for a 17 year old. And people love this song. Clearly this is a song people love to hear because it has happy ending unlike Romeo and Juliet. And then we get the ridiculous fantasy ending, right? Where we're now abandoning Romeo and Juliet entirely because he talked to the dad. And the dad. And by the way, this also happens in But Daddy, I love him. Right where your parents came around, Right? The same as we discuss in episode five. So do watch episode five, because to understand. But Daddy, I love him. You have to understand Love story. So, yeah, this is totally bonkers that all of a sudden, after she's starting to lose faith, she's got tired of waiting. Then boom. Marry me, Juliet. Never have to be alone. I love you. And that's all I really know. Which is the famous song, do you care?

[Jo Rome]

Nobody cares. Nobody cares.

[Jo's Dad]

Linda Ronstadt recorded There's a song titled all I know that was first recorded by Art garfunkel on his 73 album. It was made most famous. It became a number one song when it was done by Linda Ronstadt and as a duet with Aaron Neville, Just so you know.

[Jo Rome]

Okay.

[Jo's Dad]

Right. But this is. This lyric is a very famous lyric which she.

[Jo Rome]

Which one?

[Jo's Dad]

The lyric that I don't know much.

[Jo Rome]

I love you. And that's all I really know.

[Jo's Dad]

Right? Yes. That's all I really know. Right. Beautiful.

[Jo Rome]

Well, she uses that in Betty, I don't know much, but I know I miss you.

[Jo's Dad]

Right. And it's a common idea that the love is everything.

[Jo Rome]

It's a way to emphasize that. It's like I'm so stupid and silly and Chungus. But your love breaks through, you know?

[Jo's Dad]

Well, love conquers all, really. Right. And that's what this song is about. That. That just. Yeah, just all you have to do is say yes. And magically, the tragedy turns into eternal love.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah.

[Jo's Dad]

And just to make sure that we aren't stuck in believing. This is a fantasy.

[Jo Rome]

Right, Right.

[Jo's Dad]

She leaps ahead back in time to repeat the opening line. Cause we were both young when I first saw you. And in the music video, she now sees the guy in the present. And they have for love at first sight at the very end of the music video. But in reality, you know, this. This idea. I was. We were both young when I first saw you. Again, the hidden mess, secret message in the liner notes is, someday I'll find this. So what? She's. Even though this song is entirely sung in flashback, in her mind, she is saying someday. This is really about the future. This is what I'm hoping for. And, you know, we'll find out if she has found it with.

[Jo Rome]

We'll find out.

[Jo's Dad]

Travis.

[Toni (Jo's daughter)]

Uh. Oh. Cause we were both young when I first saw you.

[Jo Rome]

How about that?

[Jo's Dad]

Which is very poignant. Now, it's as often when she repeats a lyric, makes the last lyric the same as the first lyric. It is a reconsideration of those words. And the point is, she's not going to meet her true love when she's young. She's gonna meet him in the future.

[Jo Rome]

Yeah, right.

[Jo's Dad]

That's. That's the hope. And.

[Jo Rome]

And with that, we hope you find your true love.

[Jo's Dad]

Oh, and then we have. Wait, wait, wait. And what is coming next. Oh, no. Where is the set list?

[Jo Rome]

It should be speak now. Right.

[Jo's Dad]

Where's my copy of the set list? Oh, there it is. Boop. This is the original set list. Take a look. Oh, no, it's the upper part. There we go.

[Jo Rome]

Okay. Oh, yeah. Tis a damn season. That's fascinating. I don't know that one at all. So I'll have to find out.

[Jo's Dad]

She we're. And I don't know it either. We're gonna go to Eva Moore. So next album. 5 songs evermore. Tis a damn season. Willow, which went to number one. I think I love Willow. Marjorie, Champagne problems. A great song and tolerate it. Another great song.

[Jo Rome]

Another good song. That's what the song.

[Jo's Dad]

Alrighty. We Bye. We will see you next week.

[Jo Rome]

See you next week. Bye.

[Toni (Jo's daughter)]

Bye.

[Jo's Dad]

Bye. Monster Energy. Everybody knows White Monster Zero Ultra. That's the OG it kicked off this whole zero sugar energy drink thing. But Ultra is a whole lineup now. You've got Strawberry Dreams, Blue Hawaiian Sunrise and Vice Guava. And they all bring the Monster Energy punch. So if you've been living in the white can, branch out. Ultra's got a flavor for every vibe and every single one is zero sugar. Tap the banner to learn more bad day. Watch this. TikTok is full of funny pets and heart melting moments. Laugh more, stress less and share your own Furry Star. Download TikTok now.