Why We Remember It All Too Well | #2

Summary

Decoding Taylor Swift: A Storytelling Revolution

Episode 2: Why We Remember It All Too Well
Hosts: Joe Romm & Toni Romm
Release Date: July 10, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode explores why Taylor Swift’s storytelling—specifically in her song “All Too Well”—is so memorable and transformative. Joe and Toni Romm dive deep into the mechanics of memorable communication, discussing repetition, metaphor, emotion, and the tricks of the storytelling trade that both Swift and other great communicators employ. Through analysis, personal anecdotes, and witty banter, they showcase how mastering these tools isn’t just for songwriters – it’s for anyone who wants to make an impact.

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The Importance of Being Memorable

The Power of Remembrance

• Taylor Swift’s “All Too Well” as Case Study:
  • Swift repeats the word “remember” 17 times—deliberate, not accidental ([00:41]).
  • “She wants you to remember that song.” – Toni ([01:05])
• Communication Goals:
  • “The most successful thing that you can be is a person who is remembered. Because if people remember you, they're going to keep coming back to you.” – Joe ([02:22])
• Modern Attention Economy:
  • In a world where attention is the biggest currency, being memorable equates to influence and reach ([02:21]–[03:08]).

Clicky and Sticky

• Getting Attention vs. Retaining It:
  • “First thing you want to do is get people to click on you. And then you want to get people to stick around.” – Joe ([03:14])
• Repetition as Core Strategy:
  • Repetition is described as the “mother of memory” (Latin maxim) and the most basic tool for being memorable ([04:44]).

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Techniques for Memorable Storytelling

Rule Number One: Repetition

• Frank Luntz Quote:
  “There's a simple rule. You say it again and you say it again and you say it again and you say it again and you say it again and then again, again and again and again and again. And about the time you're sick, absolutely sick of saying it is about the time that your target audience has heard it for the first time.” – Joe quoting Luntz ([05:18])
• Repetition in Everyday Life:
  • Children get what they want by constant repetition (“Are we there yet?”) – relatable anecdotes ([06:02])
  • “Repeating things over and over again is the most single most effective way to get exactly what you want.” – Toni ([06:11])
• Cognitive Reasoning:
  • Easily recalled things are believed to be true—brain uses shortcuts ([08:18]–[08:53])

Emotional Resonance

• Why Emotions Stick:
  “Your brain remembers the most important things…It's easier to remember very bad experiences…So you can learn from them.” – Toni ([09:35])
• Stories and Emotional Triggers:
  • “Storytelling is about creating emotions and memories.” – Joe ([09:52])

Memory Tricks of the Bards

• Classical Techniques:
  • Homer, Shakespeare, and ancient poets used memory tricks (“figures of speech”) such as rhyme, alliteration, metaphor, irony, and symbolism ([10:43])
• Swift’s Mastery:
  • “I was…impressed by her because I saw she's using more figures of speech than just about anybody.” – Joe ([12:04])
• Unconscious Emulation:
  • Great writers and poets internalize these tricks through repeated exposure to stories as children ([12:10]–[12:36])

The Power of Metaphor

• Personal Example:
  • Joe’s sustainable development metaphor (“like teenage sex: everybody says they’re doing it, but very few people are and those who are aren’t doing it very well.”) was remembered 25 years later ([13:29])
  • “That was one of the most memorable things I've ever heard.” – Joe, recounting a colleague ([13:44])
• Why Metaphors Work:
  • “A single expression carries a lot of meaning. And if I'm trying to teach you something new, you're gonna describe it as a metaphor about teenage sex.” – Toni ([14:39])
• Expert Endorsement:
  • “Aristotle…said, the greatest thing by far is to be a master of metaphor.” – Joe ([15:31])
  • “The human species thinks in metaphors and learns through stories.” – Joe, citing Mary Catherine Bateson ([15:31])

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Deep Dive: Decoding “All Too Well”

The Role of Symbols and Metaphor

• Opening Lines:
  • “I walked through the door with you. The air was cold…”—Groundwork for coldness as a theme; symbolism for an emotionally cold relationship ([20:36])
• The Scarf as Metaphor:
  • Repeated reference to the scarf signals more than a lost object ([23:32]–[24:03])
  • “She never comes back to sister…This is unusual of Taylor to drop a word that applies to nothing else.” – Joe ([25:08])
  • The scarf is ultimately a metaphor for innocence/vulnerability/virginity ([26:53])
  • Taylor confirmed this is a metaphor at the Toronto Film Festival, but “doesn’t want to tell you what it is,” maintaining authorial ambiguity ([27:20])

Intertextuality & Layers

• “Smells Like Me” Reference:
  • Likely a nod to Nirvana’s “Smells Like Teen Spirit,” another classic about lost innocence, embedding rock history and thematic clues ([28:59]–[30:44])
• Color Symbolism:
  • “Red” as an album and lyrical motif represents passion, blood, lost innocence, shame (scarlet letter analogy) ([31:42])

Emotional Complexity

• Shame and Memory:
  • “All I felt was shame.” ([33:25])
  • Societal double-standards and the burden of female shame discussed by Toni ([33:39])

Title Analysis

• What does “All Too Well” mean?
  • Remembering something too much, even when you wish you could forget.
  • “On a certain level, you want to remember the bad things that happened so you can learn from them and also to stick it to your weird ex.” – Toni ([35:18])

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Why This Song Obsesses Us

The Hosts’ Personal Connection

• The Podcast Origin Story:
  • Joe’s fixation with “All Too Well” led to Toni’s intervention and the very creation of the podcast ([17:03]–[18:00])
  • “He just wouldn't stop listening to All Too Well…like, wow. I was just listening to it like a normal person…He was like, oh my God, this is the most magical piece of literature I've ever seen in my life.” – Toni ([17:03])

Layered Meaning and Intentionality

• Nothing Is Accidental in Swift’s Lyrics:
  • Every word and reference is purposeful, prompting close readings and interpretations ([19:55]–[20:11])

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Lessons for Storytellers and Communicators

Memorable Communication Takes Work

• Repetition Distinguished from Redundancy:
  • Unlike academic writing, storytelling (and viral communication) thrives on smart repetition ([41:26])
  • “In an academic paper, if you genuinely like writing, you know, put stuff in multiple times, people are going to remember that.” – Toni ([41:16])

Adapting Lessons to Real Life

• Homework for Listeners:
  • Practice using repetition and metaphor when communicating—outside of science/history classes ([46:21])
  • “Find ways to include repetition in your own life.” – Toni ([47:00])
• Final Advice:
  • The trick is “to figure out how to repeat it in a slightly different way”—the art of varied repetition ([44:21])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Scar Metaphor:
  “She never comes back to sister…This is unusual of Taylor to drop a word that applies to nothing else…that’s a clue. This is her Easter egg…” – Joe ([25:08])
• Frank Luntz Rule:
  “About the time you're sick, absolutely sick of saying it is about the time that your target audience has heard it for the first time.” – [05:22]
• On Metaphor:
  “The greatest thing by far is to be a master of metaphor.” – Aristotle, quoted by Joe ([15:31])
• Cautionary Tales in Song:
  “As a father, I've always hoped that these songs would be viewed as cautionary tales.” – Joe ([36:23])
• The “All Too Well” Effect:
  “On the one hand, as you say, she remembers this all too well…It's painful. On the other hand, she's the one who chose to add an extra five minutes.” – Joe ([39:35])
• Podcast’s Core Lesson:
  “Until those who want to change the world learn how to communicate better…to use repetition, to use metaphor, until that happens, the other side, which does those things, the bottom line is that these techniques work, and that’s why we're talking about them.” – Joe ([45:16])

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Key Timestamps

• Why be memorable matters: [02:20]
• Clicky and sticky concept: [03:14]
• Repetition as communication’s foundation: [04:44]–[06:11]
• Memory and the brain’s shortcuts: [08:22]–[09:35]
• Figures of speech and storytelling: [10:45]–[12:10]
• Personal metaphor anecdote: [13:29]–[14:39]
• Dissecting “All Too Well” lyrics: [20:36]–[27:20]
• The scarf as metaphor: [26:53]
• “Smells Like Teen Spirit” connection: [28:59]
• Red/scarlet letter symbolism: [31:42]
• Shame and societal context: [33:39]
• Podcast origin story: [17:03]
• Academia vs. storytelling: [41:26]
• Listener homework: [46:21]

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Final Thoughts

Joe and Toni Romm stress that the methods Taylor Swift uses—repetition, metaphor, emotional resonance, and purposeful ambiguity—aren’t just the secret sauce behind chart-topping songs: they’re the essence of powerful, viral, and persuasive storytelling. Listeners are invited to adopt these tools in their own communication, embrace their inner storyteller, and, above all, remember the rule: repeat, repeat, repeat—memorably, and all too well.

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Listener Homework:
Try communicating with repetition and metaphor in your own conversations this week. Notice what sticks!

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Joe Rome and I'm his daughter Toni.

[B]

Welcome to Decoding Taylor Swift, where you'll learn the storytelling tools Swift uses that make her a modern day Shakespeare, but.

[A]

Can make you a better communicator so you can drive your mission and build your tribe.

[B]

Rolling Stone magazine put both me and Swift on its list of 100 people changing America. So I know that the most successful social change makers are the best storytellers.

[A]

This podcast will transform how you think about Swift's songs and give you the life changing tools to lead, connect, and change the world.

[B]

Hello, welcome to our second episode, Episode two. Today we're going to talk about the importance of being memorable. And we're gonna talk about perhaps Taylor's most memorable song, All Too well, in which she repeats the phrase remember it 17 times.

[A]

17 times. It's a lot of times.

[B]

So she wants you to remember that song.

[A]

And did you count all of those times? Did you just like sit at home and count them?

[B]

No, I just went and used the.

[A]

Control F. I did, actually.

[B]

I did control F. And then you can hit, hit the replace thing and then. Yeah, that'll tell you instantly how many you have.

[A]

All right, very nice. He's. He's advancing technologically.

[B]

I am.

[A]

He's gaining sentience.

[B]

This is a podcast about how to learn the secrets of storytelling.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And through a variety of examples. But principally.

[A]

Yeah. The avenue that we are using is Taylor Swift do that.

[B]

Yes. Because she has focused on being a storyteller and I think she has demonstrated a. Use her ability to use the, the tools of storytelling in, in a.

[A]

To make change and build her tribe.

[B]

Absolutely. And what's the reason why being memorable is the single most important thing you need to learn to do if you want to be a successful and persuasive communicator?

[A]

You're asking me?

[B]

I am asking you.

[A]

Oh, well, thank you. The most successful thing that, that you can be is a person who is remembered. Because if people remember you, they're going to keep coming back to you. Or they're going to keep. Because they're going to keep thinking about you. Because that's what it means to remember. That means they're going to keep coming back. Maybe they'll come back because they don't like you. Maybe they'll come back because they do. But the point is, is that, you know, in a, in a world where, I don't know, the biggest currency is, is people and, and, and how much you get noticed and attention and tension, arguably more so than money because Attention can lead to money. You need to be remembered. You need people to understand what you're doing, you know, And. And to do that, you have to first get their attention.

[B]

Absolutely. In fact, I had come up with this phrase. I liked it to use when I was blogging.

[A]

Yes. He did do that.

[B]

Called being clicky and sticky. Right. The first thing you want to do is get people to click on you.

[A]

Fortunately, he did do that.

[B]

Yes. And then you want to get people to stick around. Right. So that was the essence. That was the. The two. The phrase.

[A]

He didn't even use ChatGPT to do that.

[B]

I didn't. This was before ChatGPT.

[A]

Could I do that? I probably.

[B]

No. No, it cannot.

[A]

Couldn't.

[B]

So, yes, we all have two goals in. In this life where we're constantly bombarded by a fire hose of an open fire hydrant.

[A]

Yes. That's a good metaphor. Yeah. It's just slogging around all the time.

[B]

How do you get notes? Right. At any given time, you, the listener, you could just pick up your phone and you could click on the most amazing stories, the most memorable, persuasive, compelling stories. So why are you gonna listen to us or anybody? And the answer is, we're gonna have to know the tricks of being memorable.

[A]

Yeah. Is we know the tricks of being memorable.

[B]

Right. And Taylor knows the tricks of being memorable. And in fact, obviously, if we're not memorable, it doesn't matter what we say.

[A]

Ah, see, that's pretty memorable.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

You could just do that. And you're probably gonna remember that I did that. Cause that was an insane thing to do.

[B]

Yes. And look, one of the basic techniques for being memorable is simply to repeat yourself over and over and over again.

[A]

Right, right, right.

[B]

That's. That's the most basic tool of. And in fact, there's this Latin saying, you know, that. That repetition is the mother of memory.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is, of course, a metaphor also. But. Yes. Job one is to repeat yourself.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And.

[A]

And job one is to repeat yourself.

[B]

And it's job two. Job two is also to repeat yourself.

[A]

Yeah. And some could even say if you're, you know, feeling a little bit crazy. Job three is to repeat yourself.

[B]

Well, and there was a quote that I used, a famous quote, a quote that I love from politics, from a man named Frank Luntz.

[A]

You know Frank Luntz. I have no idea who that is.

[B]

Frank Luntz is the.

[A]

He sounds old and white.

[B]

He is. And he is. He was one of the most successful messaging gurus for the Gop So anyway, he said a famous. He said this on pbs. There's a simple rule. You say it again and you say it again and you say it again and you say it again and you say it again and then again, again and again and again and again. And about the time you're sick, absolutely sick of saying it is about the time that your target audience has heard it for the first time.

[A]

Huh. That's very interesting. So. So rule number one is repeating yourself, is that right?

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

And I've always said it is also the trick for getting what you want.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Probably the one that.

[A]

Yes. The easiest and most effective way that I found to ask my parents for doordash money is to just ask them so many times that they get sick of me and send me money.

[B]

Yes. And for any of you who have children or are children, you understand. You understand repeating things over and over and over again is the most single most effective way to get exactly what you want.

[A]

Yeah. That's why so many kids say, are we there? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Until their parents psychologically break and say, no, we're not there yet.

[B]

Right. So repetition is important. And that's why when you're looking at a song.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Or a work of literature, a Shakespeare play.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

One of the things you do is what are the things that get repeated the most? That's the message that they're trying to send.

[A]

And if you're a really good writer, you'll repeat your metaphors and the key points of your story. Because I'm actually reading the newest Hunger Games book right now. It's very good. It's called Sunrise on the Reaping. And in the very first chapter, they mention how they begin the metaphor of, well, the sun is going to rise. And that's a sure thing. Well, is it? And they start that ball rolling. And I'm sure they will repeat it. I'm only on chapter two, but I'm going to finish this book. It's very good. We should start a Hunger Games podcast, too, just while we're at the spin off stage.

[B]

That's the second spin off.

[A]

That's the second spinoff.

[B]

I think there's probably a few Hunger Games podcast.

[A]

Well, we can do podcasts for each of them. Okay. Yeah. And then one about the author, too. I'm forgetting her name. Hold on.

[B]

Well, no, no, no, no, no.

[A]

I'm gonna find her name.

[B]

Well, you look that up. I'm just gonna say that. Look what we're trying to.

[A]

Oh, my God. Susan Collins. How did I forget? We're gonna do a Susan Collins spinoff podcast and it's gonna be delicious and wonderful. And then at that point, well, we're gonna have the spinoff because there's two Mockingjay movies. And so we're gonna do a spinoff for each, but it's just gonna be the books and we're gonna treat it like they're. They're split. And then. Anyway, so that's the podcast ideas if any studio wants to pick us up.

[B]

I think this is going to your head.

[A]

No, no. Okay. It's fine. We're fine. Anyway, okay.

[B]

So, yes, repetition is one of your key memory strategies.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And look, here's the thing.

[A]

Some might even say it's rule number one.

[B]

It is rule number one. And if you repeat something long enough and often enough, even if it's not true, people will come to believe it.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

And that's what's sometimes known as the big lie.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

That's a well known strategy. And in fact, there was. There's been research done which shows that. And this is something that was. I saw this in the Washington Post. The. One of the brain's subconscious rules of thumb is that easily recalled things are true.

[A]

Huh. That is very interesting.

[B]

So the goal in persuasion is. Is to have you remember what I say, so it's easy for you to recall. And then you'll be more likely to.

[A]

Believe what I say, which, I mean, makes sense. Right. I mean, your brain has a whole bunch of little tricks that it'll do because your brain obviously is not. It can't be the best machine at all times. Right. It's kind of like. It's like an optical illusion of speech.

[B]

Absolutely. And this is a central point we'll get back to. These are the mental shortcuts. Yes, the brain has a lot of shortcuts, but because the brain uses 25% of the body's metabolism.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. So it's always looking for shortcuts to not have to go through the whole process of thinking again.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

Which arguably is why we created memory in the first place. Right. So remember, your brain remembers the most important things.

[A]

Right. Which is why it's easier to remember very bad experiences and that. So you can learn from them.

[B]

Well, yes.

[A]

And which we'll talk about, I'm sure, in another episode, how emotions and imbuing your stories with emotion can make them more connected.

[B]

Well, this is directly related to storytelling.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because storytelling is about creating emotions.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

It's about creating emotions and memories and the key interesting thing that I learned studying storytelling in part because I realized that was how to communicate with you when you were young.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That is that the great bards figured out all of the memory tricks.

[A]

Right.

[B]

In because they had to memorize these multi.

[A]

Yeah, I mean that's what Homer did. That's. We learned about that in like ninth grade. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

These, these are two, three hour long epic poems. And they had to figure out, how am I going to remember this? And also how do I get people who hear them to remember?

[A]

So they created like the epithets and they created all of these like tricks, all of these repetitions.

[B]

Right. And then the term used for these memory tricks.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Are the figures of speech.

[A]

Figures of speech.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And which is even. Which even uses a figure of speech, which is personification. Right. It's a figure. It's a person.

[B]

And so the figures of speech include things like rhyme and alliteration and assonance and consonants, all these things that tailor and repetition. All forms of repetition. You can repeat single words.

[A]

Single words.

[B]

You can repeat words at the end of a phrase of the people, by the people, for the people.

[A]

And rhyme is just repeating the last.

[B]

Syllable, repeating the last syllable or multiple syllables, as it turns out. Then there are these other memory tricks like metaphor and irony and foreshadow symbolism.

[A]

Which is just kind of a strain of metaphor where you just repeat the same symbol over and over again in a certain place. It's all about.

[B]

Absolutely. And Shakespeare knew over 200 fingers of.

[A]

Speech, which is crazy. Which is more than I've ever had to memorize for an English class.

[B]

When we don't get taught this storytelling anymore. Which is part of the reason we're doing this podcast. I know, because there aren't many classes.

[A]

Offered on this sad face.

[B]

But Taylor Swift's songs, they are like a syllabus.

[A]

They are like a syllabus. They're very helpful.

[B]

And you know, she wrote again the album Tortured Poets Department.

[A]

She, she's tortured because she has to memorize 200 figures of speech.

[B]

Well, I was. Got impressed by her because I saw she's using more figures of speech than just about anybody.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I saw. And I.

[A]

And at a certain point, she might not even have to realize it because, you know, the greatest piece, the greatest authors of literature, the greatest poets, they. They start to do these things. They start to recognize the parts of their brain that, that have the most, that, that are. That are brought up most often during the stories that they read in childhood. And they will start to emulate Those patterns.

[B]

Right. And these patterns are imbued in us, as I talked about in the first episode.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You heard song. You know, you listen to stories over and over and over again. Right, Right. And so they get embedded in you. But of course, any great singer songwriter is going to study the great singer songwriters.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Right. So you're going to study your. Your Lennon and McCartney and you're going to study your. Your Hank Williams.

[A]

Right? Yeah.

[B]

And so you're going to see what they use. And one of the most important things. Let me tell you one of the most memorable things I ever said. And the reason I know this is because a little while back, a couple years ago, I emailed a professor who's research I liked.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And.

[A]

Aw, that's like a nerdy thing to do.

[B]

It was.

[A]

That's cute.

[B]

And he wrote back to me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And he had remembered who I was.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

And in fact, this is what he wrote me. He wrote, when I was at Columbia, you came to an Earth Institute event and said something like, sustainable development is like teenage sex.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Everybody says they're doing it, but very few people are. And those who are aren't doing it very well.

[A]

Wow. Clearly I haven't met the people at my school. My God, Everybody talks about it. We walked in on several people by dorm parents. Woof.

[B]

And then he wrote, that was one of the most memorable things I've ever heard. And I checked when he was in Columbia, that was 25 years ago. So he remembered, 25 years later, something that I had said. And guess what? It was a metaphor. It was a metaphor. Yes. You may be saying there's other reasons he remembered, but the point is, I was connecting something people didn't know a lot about with something that they did know something about. And that's how the human brain functions. Right. That's the power of metaphor and stories, is that a single expression carries a lot of meaning. And if I'm trying to teach you.

[A]

Something new, you're gonna describe it as a metaphor about teenage sex. I guess I might.

[B]

I might.

[A]

Yeah. I'm not going to forget ever that you just said that.

[B]

Well, and I hope that the listeners don't. Then. I would.

[A]

I hope they do. For the sake of your mental health listeners. You can forget that. It's okay.

[B]

You can tell them to forget it. That's just going to make them remember it more.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

They just repeat the outrageous thing and that just helps people remember it.

[A]

Like teenage sex.

[B]

There you go. You did it again. You fell right Into.

[A]

I'm just really caught up on. I just, I just like, need a, need a second. You just, you just talk. I'm just going think about that.

[B]

So the point is, oh my God, metaphors are very memorable. And in fact, and you could say.

[A]

That I already remember that all too well. Segue, segue, segue, segue.

[B]

I just want you to know that Aristotle himself in the book Poetic, said, the greatest thing by far is to be a master of metaphor. And this woman, Mary Catherine Bateson, in her book said the human species thinks in metaphors and learns through stories. So we're done with that part. This is why you need to learn about storytelling and metaphors, because you're trying to be memorable. And again, why do you want to be memorable? You go on a date, this person is dating, going on a lot of dates, you want to be the one they remember. You go to a job interview, they're getting. Interviewing dozens of people, you want to be the person they remember. You're talking to a reporter, you're trying to get them to quote you. You need to say something more memorable than the other people that they're talking to.

[A]

Right. Or if you're at a big university, you're trying to put something in your paper or say something in class that your teacher's going to remember so you can build a relationship with them.

[B]

Or you're applying to college.

[A]

Or you're applying to college. Woof.

[B]

Absolutely. How do you stand out from the crowd? How do you get remembered? And the answer is, you use the same memory tricks as the great singers, the great bards, and the modern bards. They're the singer songwriters. And so we have Taylor Swift and her song, the song that meant the most to her and the one that she thought was the greatest and the.

[A]

One that my dad is currently most obsessed with.

[B]

Well, since you mentioned that fact, how did this whole podcast idea come about? You want to tell that story?

[A]

I mean, we. Yeah, he just wouldn't stop listening to all too well. And I talked to him about it in 2021 and I was like, wow. I was just, I was like listening to it like a normal person about like, you know, like once or twice. Because it's a 10 minute song and that's like watching an episode of a sitcom is 20 minutes long. And he just was like, oh my God, this is the most magical piece of literature I've ever seen in my life.

[B]

Recall saying that. I will recall this.

[A]

No, he said, oh my God, this is the most magical piece of literature I've seen in my life. Because your voice.

[B]

And he has such a deep voice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Here's what happened, ladies and gentlemen, and children of all ages.

[A]

Okay. And people who are non binary and do not subscribe to the Spectrum as we have, you know, delineated it today.

[B]

And any AIs listening, keep decoding.

[A]

Taylor Swift woke, ladies and gentlemen. Get that hashtag going on Twitter.

[B]

Sorry, X. I'm there for you. You know, I'm there for that. My Gen Z child.

[A]

Yeah. Okay, well, say what you're going to say.

[B]

I was gonna say a certain daughter came back and said, you have to listen to this album and particularly this song.

[A]

Yes, it was quite good.

[B]

And this was the extended version of All Too well. Right. The original version, which was also considered her best song. And it was five and a half minutes. The original altruist.

[A]

Right. So I introduced it to him, and then I went into my room and I was just, you know, calling a few friends or reading a few books. I think I was actually reading Mockingjay at that point, so. So clearly the Hunger Games has also stuck with us throughout this journey of ours. So I. And then I. And then I heard, just through a crack in my door, I. I heard.

[B]

New, new, new, new.

[A]

And it had been 45 minutes since I went into my room.

[B]

And it's a long song, so I.

[A]

Said to myself, well, that's like four or five times. And then an hour and a half.

[B]

Later, you came out.

[A]

I came out an hour and a half after I started hearing it. Right.

[B]

And then you.

[A]

What, did you freaking recorded him? Because I was like, oh, my God, are you. Well, mentally? And. And of course he was not, but we knew that.

[B]

And you sent it to a friend of yours.

[A]

I did. And I can't retrieve the video because my device has too much storage. I mean, too little storage on it. And I had to delete it. But it was. It was.

[B]

And I kept listening to it, and I kept listening to it, and why do I do that?

[A]

And I'm the one that got diagnosed with adhd.

[B]

Strange about that. But they didn't do that very much. When I was your age, I'm sure I would have been diagnosed, but that was a long time ago.

[A]

It was a long time ago, but. But it led to this podcast, and I'm glad that you liked it. You know, it's a good song, as you know. Well, better that than me with Brendan Urie.

[B]

Well, look, the reason I kept listening is because there are lines in the song that, at first blush, don't Seem to make a lot of sense.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I had come to realize, or I was in the process of realizing, that. Oh, Shakespeare. That, like Shakespeare. Taylor Swift doesn't randomly choose words. Generally speaking, she's putting in the words for a reason.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so if you don't know the reason, then something's going on, and you could spend a little time trying to figure it out.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So let's go into the song. Yes, let's go into the song, and let's start with the opening verse. Yeah, you want to say the opening verse?

[A]

Sorry, I just have to get my voice set. Me. I walked through the door with you. The air was cold, but something about it felt like home somehow. And I left my scarf there at your sister's house. And you've still got it in your drawer even now. Now snaps. Snaps.

[B]

That. That opening has so many puzzling things in it.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

That. Yes. I was like, what is going on here?

[A]

First of all, his mind was blown. That a woman could write a song and it would be good. His mind was blown.

[B]

No, the fact is, I knew it was.

[A]

Hitherto, the Beatles had been his.

[B]

My daughter says it's a. A good song, but it's got this.

[A]

Okay. Men just never think that women can do things well.

[B]

Yeah, that's. That's totally it, my daughter.

[A]

It is.

[B]

It is the reason why I dragged you here.

[A]

Yeah. And he lectures me because he has to make sure that I know he's kept my cats in a box in his apartment. And he says, you won't get them back until you do this with me and you learn about storytelling because otherwise nobody can ever teach you. But it's okay.

[B]

Now you've gone too far.

[A]

No, it's all right.

[B]

You know I'm a cat lover.

[A]

No, it's true.

[B]

Whisper.

[A]

No, we can do another podcast about cats.

[B]

You cannot insist. You cannot say, I would never mistreat a cat.

[A]

No, I'm sorry. That. That was actually too far. Cats are beautiful, and nothing should ever befall them. That is bad. No, I'm. I am sorry about that, actually, because I know you would never do that to a cat. Just because we love my cats. Shout out. Oatmeal and sugar. Shout out.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And now they ever listen to this and learn English.

[B]

Now you've. You've, I think, forced me to. To tell everyone my cat's name growing up.

[A]

I don't think we have to do that.

[B]

I think people need to understand the cats are important, and words are important to me, and they were important to My. To my father, which is why my cat's name was Lingy. Lingy lychee yangtzy pangsy ching chong ni chi bongui sui, leeming lion, tikiwiki Licky Chang o'.

[A]

Brien. I can't lie, it's not a great name. You want to tell them the origin of that?

[B]

I'm just insulting my father and my aunt.

[A]

I am a little bit insulting your father for that. I mean, like.

[B]

But I don't know.

[A]

It was an easy to remember name.

[B]

Well, to be clear, it comes from. This was a long time ago. This was the. The 60s.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And it came.

[A]

No, it's true. It was.

[B]

There was a Japanese story about a boy who fell down the well, and he had a very long name, and everyone came out to say his name over and over again. That was like stickisi, strombo noso, Rambo riparipenium, hariberi bisk and geek pompom, mishnah, brahma kahm. And you can look that up on Google and Wikipedia. And so my father and my aunt, they wanted their word people and they wanted to come up with a name of a cat for us. And of course, everyone asked us to repeat it.

[A]

It's very funny. It's very funny.

[B]

And. Okay.

[A]

No, no, it's a good name. It was funny. Yeah.

[B]

I love cats. Let's get back to Taylor. So here's the puzzling things. Let's talk about some of the puzzling things. So some of it's basic stuff. I walked through the door with you. The air was cold.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Okay. That sounds like some. You know, we know her opening lines often foreshadow what's gonna happen. And this is a story about a boyfriend who turns cold.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And there are running themes of cold in it.

[A]

Right, right. Sure.

[B]

Like.

[A]

Like dancing in the kitchen in the refrigerated light. Refrigerator is famously cold.

[B]

Right. You're dancing in the light of refrigerator. You're in cold.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So that's. That's. That's kind of basic stuff. But then there's this. I left my scarf there at your sister's house, so.

[A]

Which, by the way, making it very clear that this is a reference to Jake Gyllenhaal, worst boyfriend of all time. Clearly. And. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And there's no question that, you know, Taylor uses her life as the basis of songs. Well.

[A]

And she even said that this song was so important to her because it was about me. Yes, right.

[B]

Her.

[A]

It wasn't about me. And Tonia obviously never dated anyone and went with his Sister.

[B]

Yeah, in the. In the NPR's Tiny Desk Concert.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And you know, all your great musicians get a Tiny Desk concert. She sings the short version of this, the original version, but she introduces it by saying, then when she came out with this song in red, she thought it was her best. You know, it meant a lot to her. And as you said, she literally said she thought it was special because, quote, it's only because it happened to me. It's personal. Right. So this is a very personal song.

[A]

To her, especially the part about the scarf segue.

[B]

All right, but let me. I want to make one point here.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

Which is she never comes back to sister.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

This is unusual of Taylor to drop a word that applies to nothing else.

[A]

In the song itself except her real life.

[B]

Right. So that's a clue. This is her Easter egg of hers. Right. That this boyfriend has a famous sister.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And of course, Jake Gyllenhaal, who is widely suspected to be the person the song is about.

[A]

No, wide. Probably confirmed at this point. Yikes.

[B]

Not really. Ever been denied. I mean, Jake said, oh, it's just about her fans or, you know, all this stuff.

[A]

But she's never, you know, the sister of the fans. And that's a metaphor for capitalism.

[B]

Actually, everything to you, I think, is a metaphor for capitalism.

[A]

Absolutely. Anyway, continue.

[B]

So, okay, so, yes, Maggie Gyllenhaal, this is another clue that this is about Jake. But here's the line. And you've still got it in your drawer, even now. Okay, so that did bother me.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Because.

[A]

Because first of all, I mean, wolf, like, wow, keeping some rando scarf in your drawer after all these years. Little creepy, Jake. A little creepy.

[B]

But also, it's kind of weird that she knows exactly where this scarf is.

[A]

I know why drawer. Could not it be in a kitchen cabinet? Could not it be in some sort of box above his little, like, mirror in, like, you know, a bathroom? Like in. You could not it be in. In a closet. Yes, exactly.

[B]

Well, right. She left it at the sister's house, but now it's in his drawer.

[A]

Now it's in his drawer.

[B]

She knows exactly where it is. And the other weird thing to me is this is clearly the beginning of their relationship.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

And we learn later. It's the first week.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So why didn't she just go back and get the scarf? She knows where it is. She lost it at the very beginning. It bothers her now. She had months.

[A]

Oh, my God. Wait, I know. Can I answer this?

[B]

What?

[A]

It's because it's a metaphor.

[B]

Oh, my God. Metaphor is a metaphor. Yes. And by the way, Taylor herself later came to acknowledge that fact. And let me just see. Here we go. This was on the stage at the Toronto Film Festival. I think she was asked about the scarf when she released the extended version.

[A]

Basically, the scarf is a metaphor, and we turned it red because. Because red is a very important color in this album, which is called red. And I think when I say it's a metaphor, I'm just gonna stop.

[B]

Okay. And then she didn't want to tell what the metaphor is.

[A]

I know what it is.

[B]

We'll get there.

[A]

Teenage sex.

[B]

We'll get there.

[A]

Call back.

[B]

All right, You're. You're jumping the gun, my daughter.

[A]

I think I said another figure, another turn of phrase. Figure of speech, jumping the gun.

[B]

So, yes, it's a metaphor. She says it's a metaphor. But interestingly, she also says she's not going to tell you what it is.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I think that's good. By the way, I don't think the author of literature should go around telling you what they think their interpretation is.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You throw it out into the world and. And maybe people come up with their own interpretation.

[A]

Right. And that's part of what makes art art, right? Yes.

[B]

And part of the beauty of art is the song could mean something completely different to you.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You could perhaps have been in an elevator and nearly strangled when your scarf got caught in it. And you just hate scarves. So you might think, I hate this song because I hate scarves. You might not think that, though.

[A]

I kind of don't like scarves. They feel like they strangle you.

[B]

But let's jump to. As is common, you have the foreshadow near the beginning and then near the end. And it was near the end of the 5 1/2 minute version version of the song.

[A]

Right.

[B]

She returns to this because she's not going to leave a metaphor dangling. She's obviously going to come back to it and provide an explanation of what it is.

[A]

So here, let me play this part.

[B]

She's telling us pretty clearly that again, it is the first week, right? Still she's. He's still got the scar from the very first week because it reminds you of innocence.

[A]

Oh, innocence.

[B]

Right. So the point is, the scarf is she didn't lose the scarf her very first week. She lost her innocence the very first week. Right. And.

[A]

And everything comes back to teenage sex. I have to say, in this. In this episode. Well, I'm not loving it, but it's true.

[B]

I Love this. Even better.

[A]

I don't know if I will, because.

[B]

The next part, it reminds. This is the other thing that bothered me. It reminds you of innocence and it smells like me. Okay, well, here's two things that bother me. First of all, smells like. It's not a metaphor. It's not a simile, because the like is used literally. Literally. Smells like me. Second of all, this song now in the remake, this is like a decade after the events in question.

[A]

I know.

[B]

I mean, like, it doesn't still smell like.

[A]

Even my laundry doesn't smell so bad after, like, a week if I leave it unwashed.

[B]

So why did you. She used this particular phrasing and thought.

[A]

About it a long time, as he often does. Yes.

[B]

And I realized, as he should. And if you type in smells like into Google, you will see which most.

[A]

People, to be clear, don't. But he does, because he's special.

[B]

You would see that. This is a reference to one of the most famous songs in all of rock and roll, which is a good catch. The only time this phrase is used. Smells like Teen Spirit by Nirvana and Kurt Cobain.

[A]

This is dangerous. Just if you guys need, like, a refresher to what the song is like.

[B]

On number five on Rolling Stone's top 500 songs, which.

[A]

It's a really good song. Big fan.

[B]

One of the most influential songs ever written. And obviously Smells Like Teen Spirit.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Which is a simile. It is a metaphor, a very distinctive one.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

That is also a song about lost innocence.

[A]

Yes. Yes, it is.

[B]

And so, again, this is another way that Taylor is sending us this message that this is what song is about. And then maybe there's another one.

[A]

Maybe there's another one.

[B]

Maybe there's another clue from Taylor that that's what this is about. Song is about. Because she mentioned the scarf is red.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because the album is titled Red.

[A]

Right. But why is the album titled red?

[B]

Right. Red is clearly a word that has a lot of very specific meanings.

[A]

Right. Color itself has. Is imbued with meaning.

[B]

Red is the color of passion.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Color of blood.

[A]

And if you're colorblind, the color of trees.

[B]

There you go. It's also the color of lost innocence.

[A]

Yeah. And shame and regret.

[B]

And famously, Taylor uses the scarlet letter.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Repeatedly in her song.

[A]

She does. She uses it in New Romantics. She uses it. Yeah. Right.

[B]

And what is a scarlet letter?

[A]

I was not in that class, actually, last year we did have an opportunity to read that, but I chose the Great Gatsby, of course, which there is another song Connected to that. But why don't you tell the people what the Scarlet Letter is?

[B]

Well, the scarlet letter is the letter that what Hester Prynne has to wear once she is found. She's accused of adultery.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Right. And that's stitched into her garment.

[A]

Right. The letter A. Right. It's the red A. I heard about that.

[B]

And that's the A for adultery. And it's meant to be a symbol of her shame.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Everyone gets to see, this is ancient, you know, this is, you know, hundreds of years ago.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And the point is that, again, the letter scarlet color red, as Taylor has used it in her songs, associated with shame. And in fact, in this song itself, she says that all I felt was shame.

[A]

Sad.

[B]

So, yes. In fact, that also was a thing that had bothered me, not bothered me, when I heard the song and saying, well, why did she feel shame? Right. This guy was terrible to her. What did she do that was wrong to feel shame?

[A]

Well, I mean, in society, it's just stigma after stigma for women, especially when it pertains to teenage, young adult sex, and especially when the dude that you're with is older. All of these things. Not easy being a girl, yo.

[B]

Yeah. So the point is that this is a song in which she is remembering a very consequential moment in her life.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And she is using a metaphor because she doesn't want to say outright exactly what happened.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But she's told us. I don't think it's. It's. Again, we've said, you know, we'll say this. Said it before. Say it again. This is not an accident on her part. And we, you know, she's not a coincidence.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So this is how she writes songs. Let's talk a little bit more about the idea behind this song and the title of this song.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So. Because that was another thing that bothered me.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So. So why is this song titled All Too well? What does All Too well mean?

[A]

You're asking me?

[B]

I am asking you.

[A]

Oh, well, thank you. Well, I'll answer that. I guess it's called All Too well, because when you remember something all too well, it's in the phrase too. You remember something too much, you don't want to remember it. But it's also kind of implied within it that you want to remember it in a certain part or you're forced to remember it a lot. Like, I remember it all Too well. You remember it often.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And of course, it's kind of ironic that she does so because it is one of the most Popular songs that she has. She sings it at every single concert. So she herself is the one making her herself remember it. I mean, to a certain extent. And there are a lot of reasons for that. And you asked me earlier, and I think my answer to that would just be because on a certain level, you want to remember the bad things that happened to you so you can learn from them and also to stick it to your weird ex. Hashtag, hashtag, what's a good. What's a good? Hashtag Hashtag hashtag fake Jake, let's start that on Twitter so you can know for the future and others can know, especially if it's a song that's out on Spotify that anyone can listen to, not to f with you. And you can also know that you survived that, that this something that you went through, that you got through. And I think it's important to her because of all of those reasons.

[B]

Well, and I think that that's. I'm. That's very good.

[A]

Oh, thanks. Hashtag snaps, snapsht, snapshot.

[B]

You know, first of all, as a father, I've always hoped that these songs would be viewed as cautionary tales.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Right. That's. You know, she's. She has all these songs about boys who, you know, don't treat her well.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And sometimes she knows that in advance. Right. I knew you were in trouble when you walked in. But the point is, hopefully the listeners, hopefully my daughter and others come away thinking, not, oh, I'm gonna copy what she did. Yeah, and crash and burn. I'm gonna, like, I know.

[A]

But then why does it have to be a lesson for the daughters? I feel like that's what bothers me, which is, like, why more men don't listen to Taylor Swift, because I feel like it's more helpful for them. Like, hey, don't go for younger girls and then take advantage of them and then keep their scarf slash virginity and take that and then kind of shove it in their faces and then be rude about it and be like, oh, I'm sorry, you're just, like, too young, and it's just like a whole thing. But I think that indeed, there is some degree of feminism being communicated in this. I mean, of course, the fuck the patriarchy. Excuse my language. Her words, not mine. I mean, that obviously represents kind of a deeper anger with the state of her relationship that does have something to do with. With the roles of women and men in the society that she has been brought up of, which is part of why she feels so much shame surrounding the relationship, I think.

[B]

There's no question about that. And I want to be clear. This song has a lot going on. It's a 10 and a half minute song, and we are definitely not going to be only talking about it here.

[A]

Yeah, well, if we got to. We're going to have a whole nother episode for that. Stay tuned. Hashtag foreshadow.

[B]

Yes, I think.

[A]

Hashtag fake Jake. Start on Twitter.

[B]

I think perhaps, maybe even the final episode of this season, maybe.

[A]

Maybe something cooking. We got something in the works.

[B]

I think that. I think that there's a lot of going on in this song that is a second layer below. But to your point, yes. Obviously, in the beginning, she. I think, imagine most of her fans were teenage girls and young women. She's gotten to be very, very, very popular. So she. You know, we went to the concert. There were plenty of guys there.

[A]

There were.

[B]

And in fact, right behind us, I think I pointed to you, there's a young man and a young woman, and the young man was singing along with every word. And the young woman didn't seem to know so many of the words. So.

[A]

Which. Love for them. Love that for them.

[B]

So, yeah, I think that. I would hope that anybody who wants to understand why a Taylor is a phenomenon.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And why so many young women and others are drawn to her song would want to understand. Should. Should listen to her songs to understand why and. And perhaps also the parents, which is certainly.

[A]

Certainly what he's done. Certainly what I've done, he's done to the nines.

[B]

So, yes, I think that clearly, on the one hand, as you say, she remembers this all too well. So she remembers it too much. It's painful. On the other hand, she's the one who chose to add an extra five minutes. Right.

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[B]

And of course, they're kind of an angrier five minutes.

[A]

An angrier five minutes.

[B]

So the point is, 10 years later, the thing that the guy did to her still bothers her at least as much. Yeah, she still has.

[A]

I would be pretty bothered.

[B]

Well, and I think if you think about when she dropped the original song, she was.

[A]

Which was what, 2011. 2012.

[B]

Yes, it was 2012.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And the events in question were, you know, as we learn in the song, the 21st birthday.

[A]

Oh, my God. Yeah. Fresh in her mind.

[B]

Right. So we know when that event occurred and she wrote the song the next year, released it then. And indeed, I think if you follow along, she was. It was rumored that the original version, that she had sort of sat down and this had just gushed out of her.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And I've seen some people said the original version was 10 minutes. She had a lot to say is the point.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And they made her cut. I mean made her. She agreed.

[A]

They made her. No, she was young.

[B]

She was young.

[A]

She was.

[B]

And they said you can't put out a 10 minute song.

[A]

I know, right.

[B]

So you come out with a 10 minute song. Don McLean and. But you know, she had, you know, came up with the genius idea of re recording a song because they got bought by someone she didn't like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And then she felt, look, I'm gonna have another five minutes.

[A]

Which is relatable because that's most of my essays. I have to end up cutting like two pages of it.

[B]

Well, and this version of it, unlike the first one, went to number one.

[A]

Right. And I know. So you know what, keep those extra two pages in your essays, people.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Yeah. Make your teachers read that extra because you might put something in it that they really like that they put on Spotify, even make it pretty popular.

[B]

Although in reality we know the teacher's just going to exit out and say, you could have got this stuff out. You're just repeating yourself, right?

[A]

Yeah. You're just repeating yourself. Oh my God. It's the, it starts so early that they make you cut this stuff out because they think that repeating yourself. Oh my God. If you're a professional writer, like, oh my God. It's it just not to say, not to say the word behoove, but it behooves you to put things multiple times. Especially if you're blogging, especially if your aim is to get people to notice. And it's not just, you know, an academic piece. In an academic paper, if you genuinely like writing, you know, put stuff in multiple times, people are going to remember that. That's. Yeah. I mean obviously. Rule number one, guys. Rule number one. What's rule number one? Answer, answer on your devices at home. It's repetition. Good job.

[B]

Yeah. And, and, and look, that is the difference between the way communications is taught in school.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, and look, this is a point that I, I have made. It was. And, and kind of a painful point.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The higher up you go when you're young, you just get stories all the time and then you hit a certain age and that age is typically around 12. That's when kids brains can think logically. That's when you get algebra and then.

[A]

You get taught the word redundant.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then repetition becomes redundance and you just have to cut the redundance. Out. And. Yeah, I'm really glad that. That you taught me all this early so I don't have to do your whole journey and relearn it, because that sounded painful.

[B]

Well, and they'll learn it and unlearn it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A PhD in physics. From it, you learn, don't tell stories. Don't repeat yourself.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

That's. The scientists don't like to repeat themselves because they think.

[A]

No, it's true.

[B]

That. That people who repeat themselves don't really believe what they're saying. If you really believe what you say, you just say it once. Right. And prove it.

[A]

Right. Because then it also kind of implies this idea that, that you're. That you're trying to convince people that you need to convince somebody of the facts that you're being, you know, using overt rhetor. Need to be rhetorical because what you're saying isn't important enough or it isn't true enough, or it isn't. It isn't whatever, enough to be said once and then leaving it at that. But that's obviously not how the human brain works. And if you really want your point to get across, cough, cough, climate scientists, please do this. Like, you need to say things multiple times. You need to have, you know, catchy slogans like the movement. The. The MeToo movement, hashtag MeToo. It's easy, it's. It's memorable. And, and all of the struggles that are being dealt with, it doesn't make them exaggerations if it out there and just make people remember. It just makes them more memorable at the end of the day, which is what you know. But it's not confined to social movement. It's not confined to those small avenues. It's everything. Writing, I mean, blogging, literally, like interviews, everything. Every piece of your life, you can learn to repeat things.

[B]

Yeah. And the trick is to figure out how to repeat it in a slightly different way.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And that is part of what was taught back in the Renaissance.

[A]

Right.

[B]

There's a book by. I think it was Erasmus called Dacopia. And in that book, one of the. One of the lessons that you get is there's like a line today, it was a beautiful day, the sky was blue.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Rewrite this line 150 different ways. Right. So. Yes.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And yeah, guys, add us on Twitter and put as many different ways. Ways in as many different languages as you can think to say. Rule number one is repetition.

[B]

Hashtag decoding Taylor Swift, the first enumeration.

[A]

In our podcast, very long and storied rule book is to repeat oneself. Then I started the ball rolling. You guys got to get it. You guys got to keep it going.

[B]

Yeah. And look, so I think that. And. And this is always the motivation for me to get into the messaging business was first, climate scientists weren't doing a great job of it. No.

[A]

And I mean, literally, we barely just got people right now to believe that climate change is real. And that's not a controversial statement anymore. Yikes.

[B]

Yeah. Well, look, it's part of the reason that we wanted to do this podcast is because, yes, until those who want to change the world learn how to communicate better, to tell better stories, to use repetition, to use metaphor, until that happens, the other side, which does those things, the bottom line is that these techniques work, and that's why we're talking about them. And I hope you know in the coming episodes, we're going to talk about a number of different strategies and techniques and these memory tricks, these viral memory tricks, and I think that's. We're gonna wrap. Call this a wrap for the week.

[A]

Call this a wrap for the week. And. Oh, yeah. High five. That was a crisp one. I'm sure Mike caught that. But, yeah. Homework again. Homework for everybody. I have a piece of homework for you, which is kind of fun because I'm in high school and I get assigned homework, and I hate the homework, so I guess I'm taking it out on our listeners, our lovely listeners. But please, when you are, you know, communicating with someone, a small child, an old person, somebody of an age, between small child and old person, and they, you know, want to be, you're trying to convince them of something, try finding different ways of saying it, trying to repeat yourself, because that makes for more effective communication. Find ways to include repetition in your own life. Don't. And I learned this the hard way. Do it in a history class. Your teachers won't like that. Don't do it in a science class. Teachers also won't like that. But anytime outside of that, please do it. Homework done. Wrap on. Homework well.

[B]

And also come up with a good metaphor. Yeah, come up with a good. I will tell you, I've given hundreds of speeches, and if I come up with a good metaphor, if people come up to me afterwards, they will always mention the metaphor. That's what they're going to do. That's what they're going to remember. That's what they're going to take away.

[A]

I'm never forgetting teenage sex.

[B]

Sex.

[A]

Well, I don't like that you said that. I can't lie. But I kind of love that for you because I clearly worked well, and the only time teenage sex ever works.

[B]

Who knew that this song would be about teenage sex and reference that this.

[A]

Episode would be a whole other song.

[B]

About probably name the stuff, like teenage sex.

[A]

No, we shouldn't.

[B]

Yeah, no, we're not gonna do that. All right.

[A]

That's the unofficial title, though.

[B]

Unofficial title.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

Thanks for coming. See you next week.

[B]

See you next week.