Deep Cover Presents: Snowball

Episode 6: Stakeout

Host: Ollie Wards (ABC/Pushkin Industries)
Original Air Date: December 8, 2025

Overview: "A Game of Cat and Mouse: The Confrontation with Leslie Mnookian"

The sixth episode of the Snowball series follows Ollie Wards as he closes in on long-elusive Californian con woman Leslie Mnookian. After months of investigative work unearthing the extent of Mnookian’s deceptions and their impact on his own family and others, Ollie attempts a high-stakes, face-to-face encounter in San Luis Obispo. The episode is marked by tension, anticipation, and a complex interview that blurs the lines between truth, denial, and emotional manipulation, while offering a rare direct look into a con artist's mindset.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Stakeout and Emotional Buildup

Setting the Stage (02:18 - 05:30):
- Ollie describes the nerves and anticipation as he, with his brother Simon, pulls up outside the supermarket where Leslie is believed to work.
- Quote: "You know how sometimes people say that they have butterflies in their stomach? Well, I reckon mine's more like bats flying out of a cave. All heaps of them at once." — Ollie Wards (02:29)
- Emphasis on stealth: Incognito microphones and careful parking highlight the covert nature of the operation.

First Sighting and Tactical Planning

Spotting Leslie (05:34 - 06:51):
- After a tense wait and several false alarms, Ollie confirms Leslie is working in the store.
- Ollie resolves to confront her, but only once she's off the clock to avoid causing a scene.
- A brief plan is formed for managing the two supermarket exits for the perfect approach.

Insight from an Expert: Maria Konnikova

Con Artist Psychology and Strategic Advice (09:49 - 11:29):
- Ollie seeks advice from Maria Konnikova, author, psychologist, and professional poker player.
- Key Insights:
  - True con artists are "confidence artists," relying on trust, not just deception.
  - Quote: “It’s not enough to just commit fraud... You need to gain someone's trust and take advantage of it for the express purpose of getting something that you want that they're not aware of.” — Maria Konnikova (10:15)
  - Tactic for Confrontation: Stroke the ego, avoid confrontation, let the subject feel proud (“They're narcissists. They love being the center of attention and they're proud of what they do.” — 10:58)

The Confrontation: Ollie Meets Leslie

High Drama at the Car (16:25 - 38:11):
- The stakeout pays off—Leslie is spotted leaving. Ollie intercepts her as she’s getting into her car (17:03).
- Initial Reaction: Leslie is surprised but composed. She agrees (reluctantly) to a rapid, impromptu interview, promising further conversation the next day.
- Notable Emotional Moment
  - As the conversation turns personal, Leslie tears up when discussing her lack of closure with Ollie’s brother, Greg (23:34).
  - Quote: “I never got closure. I never got to say goodbye to your brother. I truly loved him.” — Leslie Mnookian (23:34)
- Admittance and Deflection
  - Leslie admits some past mistakes, but asserts things could have been handled differently, and shifts some blame onto Greg for not facilitating a "grown-up conversation."
  - On potential fraud: "I feel that maybe some of the ways that I went about trying to get the loans and stuff maybe weren't totally kosher." (22:10)
- Direct Evidence Presented
  - Ollie confronts Leslie with forged bank statements she submitted to Kiwibank.
  - Quote: “That seems a bit weird for a bank statement, right?” — Ollie (26:13)
  - Leslie is briefly flustered, plays down responsibility: “Those are the ones I just forwarded, I didn't write. Those were forwarded to...” (27:12)
- On Forgery and the Fake Lawyer
  - Leslie is pressed about the mysterious Eric T. Weiss (her supposed lawyer).
  - When Ollie reveals Weiss’s contact info was actually Leslie’s parents’ home phone, she demurs: “That's because that's super weird to have a... my parents address as Eric's contact information.” (30:04)
- On Past Allegations and Legal Troubles
  - When challenged about other alleged frauds and criminal activity, Leslie denies wrongdoing, often turning the accusation around or calling the incidents misunderstandings—especially with ex-business partners in Hawaii, Tahoe, and San Diego.
  - Quote: “Signed other people's checks for them. Oh, I would love to know who said that. No.” — Leslie (34:59)
  - On her criminal record in San Diego/Oceanside: “I did not admit guilt to that charge, actually. The charges got dropped... It was a checking account that was open in my name, and it was just a miscommunication.” (36:59)
- Emotional and Philosophical Appeals
  - Leslie closes by classifying much of her history as “life is life,” expressing regret and a wish for closure, yet also stating, “I'm honestly, I have nothing to hide, and I will be as upfront with you as I possibly can with what I can remember and with... the knowledge I have.” (39:15)

Aftermath and Reflection

Ollie’s Immediate Reaction (42:38 - 44:44):
- Ollie is stunned by Leslie’s charisma, even feeling briefly swayed despite the evidence.
- Quote: “Man, she's good. I even feel like I believe her... in that conversation I'm standing here like, okay, well that seems legit.” — Ollie (42:40)
Brother Greg’s Reaction (44:54 - 46:38):
- Greg, the original victim, is unmoved by Leslie’s claims of authentic emotion.
- Quote: “I don't know, the fact she had form before I was around. No... If there's a pattern of her doing this to many people... I reckon that's all bullshit.” — Greg (45:32)
- Greg expresses concern for future and past victims, recognizing a repeating pattern.
Final Reflections & Setup for the Next Episode (47:24 - 48:35):
- Ollie weighs Leslie’s persuasive emotional act against mounting evidence of a serial pattern, resolving to meet her again and seek further clarity.
- Maria Konnikova’s comment is previewed for next episode: “In over 90% of cases, true con artists are repeat offenders and given the opportunity to go straight, so to speak, they don't take it.” (48:20)

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

Nerves in the Stakeout:
“Well, I reckon mine's more like bats flying out of a cave. All heaps of them at once.”
— Ollie Wards (02:29)
On the Nature of a Con:
“You need to gain someone's trust and take advantage of it for the express purpose of getting something that you want that they're not aware of.”
— Maria Konnikova (10:15)
Con Artist Tactics:
“Stroke her ego. That's actually my number one piece of advice... They're narcissists. They love being the center of attention and they're proud of what they do.”
— Maria Konnikova (10:58)
Leslie’s Emotional Defense:
“I would have loved to... sit down and go through all the numbers, have the bank guy there, everything. I even offered to do that... but then all of a sudden it was come back here, and that's what I was told over and over.”
— Leslie Mnookian (24:25)
Admission (sort of):
“I feel that maybe some of the ways that I went about trying to get the loans and stuff maybe weren't totally kosher.”
— Leslie (22:10)
Direct Evidence, Flustered Response:
“Those are the ones I just forwarded. I didn’t—right. Those were forwarded to...”
— Leslie (27:12)
Philosophical Reflection:
“Life is life, you know, and you got to move forward from it and learn from your mistakes and try to be a better person. And that's what I'm trying to do in my life.”
— Leslie (33:06)
Ollie’s Reflection:
“Man, she's good. I even feel like I believe her... in that conversation I’m standing here like, okay, well that seems legit.”
— Ollie (42:38)
Greg’s Rejection of Leslie’s Narrative:
“I reckon that's all bullshit. If there's a pattern of her doing this to many people, because there's nothing unique about me in that respect.”
— Greg Wards (45:32)

Segmentation & Timestamps

Stakeout Begins: 02:18
Confirmed Sighting: 05:34
Expert Interview (Konnikova): 09:49
Ollie’s Approach & Leslie Confrontation: 16:25
Direct Confrontation with Evidence: 25:28
Challenging on Fake Lawyer: 28:07
Past Victims & Allegations: 34:26
Wrap-Up & Reflection: 42:38
Greg’s Response: 44:54
Preview for Next Episode: 48:20

Tone and Language

Ollie maintains a nervous, occasionally humorous, but deeply personal and emotionally invested tone throughout.
Leslie alternates between calm, defensive, emotional, and philosophical—frequently flattering, deflecting, and re-framing.
The interview is intimate and conversational but charged with tension, given the high stakes and personal history involved.

For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode

This episode offers a rare, unvarnished confrontation between a victim and a suspected serial con artist—with emotional, legal, and psychological threads all at play. The tension of the stakeout, detailed breakdown of confidence games, and the blurred lines between avowal and denial make it a standout. As Ollie tries to pin down the truth, listeners are left questioning what closure, if any, is truly possible—and what drives someone to deception in the first place. The story is poised to resolve in the next, and final, chapter.

Deep Cover Presents: Snowball

Episode 6: Stakeout

Host: Ollie Wards (ABC/Pushkin Industries)
Original Air Date: December 8, 2025

Overview: "A Game of Cat and Mouse: The Confrontation with Leslie Mnookian"

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Stakeout and Emotional Buildup

Setting the Stage (02:18 - 05:30):
- Ollie describes the nerves and anticipation as he, with his brother Simon, pulls up outside the supermarket where Leslie is believed to work.
- Quote: "You know how sometimes people say that they have butterflies in their stomach? Well, I reckon mine's more like bats flying out of a cave. All heaps of them at once." — Ollie Wards (02:29)
- Emphasis on stealth: Incognito microphones and careful parking highlight the covert nature of the operation.

First Sighting and Tactical Planning

Spotting Leslie (05:34 - 06:51):
- After a tense wait and several false alarms, Ollie confirms Leslie is working in the store.
- Ollie resolves to confront her, but only once she's off the clock to avoid causing a scene.
- A brief plan is formed for managing the two supermarket exits for the perfect approach.

Insight from an Expert: Maria Konnikova

Con Artist Psychology and Strategic Advice (09:49 - 11:29):
- Ollie seeks advice from Maria Konnikova, author, psychologist, and professional poker player.
- Key Insights:
  - True con artists are "confidence artists," relying on trust, not just deception.
  - Quote: “It’s not enough to just commit fraud... You need to gain someone's trust and take advantage of it for the express purpose of getting something that you want that they're not aware of.” — Maria Konnikova (10:15)
  - Tactic for Confrontation: Stroke the ego, avoid confrontation, let the subject feel proud (“They're narcissists. They love being the center of attention and they're proud of what they do.” — 10:58)

The Confrontation: Ollie Meets Leslie

High Drama at the Car (16:25 - 38:11):
- The stakeout pays off—Leslie is spotted leaving. Ollie intercepts her as she’s getting into her car (17:03).
- Initial Reaction: Leslie is surprised but composed. She agrees (reluctantly) to a rapid, impromptu interview, promising further conversation the next day.
- Notable Emotional Moment
  - As the conversation turns personal, Leslie tears up when discussing her lack of closure with Ollie’s brother, Greg (23:34).
  - Quote: “I never got closure. I never got to say goodbye to your brother. I truly loved him.” — Leslie Mnookian (23:34)
- Admittance and Deflection
  - Leslie admits some past mistakes, but asserts things could have been handled differently, and shifts some blame onto Greg for not facilitating a "grown-up conversation."
  - On potential fraud: "I feel that maybe some of the ways that I went about trying to get the loans and stuff maybe weren't totally kosher." (22:10)
- Direct Evidence Presented
  - Ollie confronts Leslie with forged bank statements she submitted to Kiwibank.
  - Quote: “That seems a bit weird for a bank statement, right?” — Ollie (26:13)
  - Leslie is briefly flustered, plays down responsibility: “Those are the ones I just forwarded, I didn't write. Those were forwarded to...” (27:12)
- On Forgery and the Fake Lawyer
  - Leslie is pressed about the mysterious Eric T. Weiss (her supposed lawyer).
  - When Ollie reveals Weiss’s contact info was actually Leslie’s parents’ home phone, she demurs: “That's because that's super weird to have a... my parents address as Eric's contact information.” (30:04)
- On Past Allegations and Legal Troubles
  - When challenged about other alleged frauds and criminal activity, Leslie denies wrongdoing, often turning the accusation around or calling the incidents misunderstandings—especially with ex-business partners in Hawaii, Tahoe, and San Diego.
  - Quote: “Signed other people's checks for them. Oh, I would love to know who said that. No.” — Leslie (34:59)
  - On her criminal record in San Diego/Oceanside: “I did not admit guilt to that charge, actually. The charges got dropped... It was a checking account that was open in my name, and it was just a miscommunication.” (36:59)
- Emotional and Philosophical Appeals
  - Leslie closes by classifying much of her history as “life is life,” expressing regret and a wish for closure, yet also stating, “I'm honestly, I have nothing to hide, and I will be as upfront with you as I possibly can with what I can remember and with... the knowledge I have.” (39:15)

Aftermath and Reflection

Ollie’s Immediate Reaction (42:38 - 44:44):
- Ollie is stunned by Leslie’s charisma, even feeling briefly swayed despite the evidence.
- Quote: “Man, she's good. I even feel like I believe her... in that conversation I'm standing here like, okay, well that seems legit.” — Ollie (42:40)
Brother Greg’s Reaction (44:54 - 46:38):
- Greg, the original victim, is unmoved by Leslie’s claims of authentic emotion.
- Quote: “I don't know, the fact she had form before I was around. No... If there's a pattern of her doing this to many people... I reckon that's all bullshit.” — Greg (45:32)
- Greg expresses concern for future and past victims, recognizing a repeating pattern.
Final Reflections & Setup for the Next Episode (47:24 - 48:35):
- Ollie weighs Leslie’s persuasive emotional act against mounting evidence of a serial pattern, resolving to meet her again and seek further clarity.
- Maria Konnikova’s comment is previewed for next episode: “In over 90% of cases, true con artists are repeat offenders and given the opportunity to go straight, so to speak, they don't take it.” (48:20)

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

Nerves in the Stakeout:
“Well, I reckon mine's more like bats flying out of a cave. All heaps of them at once.”
— Ollie Wards (02:29)
On the Nature of a Con:
“You need to gain someone's trust and take advantage of it for the express purpose of getting something that you want that they're not aware of.”
— Maria Konnikova (10:15)
Con Artist Tactics:
“Stroke her ego. That's actually my number one piece of advice... They're narcissists. They love being the center of attention and they're proud of what they do.”
— Maria Konnikova (10:58)
Leslie’s Emotional Defense:
“I would have loved to... sit down and go through all the numbers, have the bank guy there, everything. I even offered to do that... but then all of a sudden it was come back here, and that's what I was told over and over.”
— Leslie Mnookian (24:25)
Admission (sort of):
“I feel that maybe some of the ways that I went about trying to get the loans and stuff maybe weren't totally kosher.”
— Leslie (22:10)
Direct Evidence, Flustered Response:
“Those are the ones I just forwarded. I didn’t—right. Those were forwarded to...”
— Leslie (27:12)
Philosophical Reflection:
“Life is life, you know, and you got to move forward from it and learn from your mistakes and try to be a better person. And that's what I'm trying to do in my life.”
— Leslie (33:06)
Ollie’s Reflection:
“Man, she's good. I even feel like I believe her... in that conversation I’m standing here like, okay, well that seems legit.”
— Ollie (42:38)
Greg’s Rejection of Leslie’s Narrative:
“I reckon that's all bullshit. If there's a pattern of her doing this to many people, because there's nothing unique about me in that respect.”
— Greg Wards (45:32)

Segmentation & Timestamps

Stakeout Begins: 02:18
Confirmed Sighting: 05:34
Expert Interview (Konnikova): 09:49
Ollie’s Approach & Leslie Confrontation: 16:25
Direct Confrontation with Evidence: 25:28
Challenging on Fake Lawyer: 28:07
Past Victims & Allegations: 34:26
Wrap-Up & Reflection: 42:38
Greg’s Response: 44:54
Preview for Next Episode: 48:20

Tone and Language

Ollie maintains a nervous, occasionally humorous, but deeply personal and emotionally invested tone throughout.
Leslie alternates between calm, defensive, emotional, and philosophical—frequently flattering, deflecting, and re-framing.
The interview is intimate and conversational but charged with tension, given the high stakes and personal history involved.

wavePod

Snowball - Episode 6: Stakeout

Summary

Deep Cover Presents: Snowball

Episode 6: Stakeout

Overview: "A Game of Cat and Mouse: The Confrontation with Leslie Mnookian"

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Stakeout and Emotional Buildup

First Sighting and Tactical Planning

Insight from an Expert: Maria Konnikova

The Confrontation: Ollie Meets Leslie

Aftermath and Reflection

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

Segmentation & Timestamps

Tone and Language

For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode

Transcript

Summary

Deep Cover Presents: Snowball

Episode 6: Stakeout

Overview: "A Game of Cat and Mouse: The Confrontation with Leslie Mnookian"

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Stakeout and Emotional Buildup

First Sighting and Tactical Planning

Insight from an Expert: Maria Konnikova

The Confrontation: Ollie Meets Leslie

Aftermath and Reflection

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

Segmentation & Timestamps

Tone and Language

For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode