Snowball - Episode 6: Stakeout

Summary

Deep Cover Presents: Snowball

Episode 6: Stakeout

Host: Ollie Wards (ABC/Pushkin Industries)
Original Air Date: December 8, 2025

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Overview: "A Game of Cat and Mouse: The Confrontation with Leslie Mnookian"

The sixth episode of the Snowball series follows Ollie Wards as he closes in on long-elusive Californian con woman Leslie Mnookian. After months of investigative work unearthing the extent of Mnookian’s deceptions and their impact on his own family and others, Ollie attempts a high-stakes, face-to-face encounter in San Luis Obispo. The episode is marked by tension, anticipation, and a complex interview that blurs the lines between truth, denial, and emotional manipulation, while offering a rare direct look into a con artist's mindset.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Stakeout and Emotional Buildup

• Setting the Stage (02:18 - 05:30):
  • Ollie describes the nerves and anticipation as he, with his brother Simon, pulls up outside the supermarket where Leslie is believed to work.
  • Quote: "You know how sometimes people say that they have butterflies in their stomach? Well, I reckon mine's more like bats flying out of a cave. All heaps of them at once." — Ollie Wards (02:29)
  • Emphasis on stealth: Incognito microphones and careful parking highlight the covert nature of the operation.

First Sighting and Tactical Planning

• Spotting Leslie (05:34 - 06:51):
  • After a tense wait and several false alarms, Ollie confirms Leslie is working in the store.
  • Ollie resolves to confront her, but only once she's off the clock to avoid causing a scene.
  • A brief plan is formed for managing the two supermarket exits for the perfect approach.

Insight from an Expert: Maria Konnikova

• Con Artist Psychology and Strategic Advice (09:49 - 11:29):
  • Ollie seeks advice from Maria Konnikova, author, psychologist, and professional poker player.
  • Key Insights:
    • True con artists are "confidence artists," relying on trust, not just deception.
    • Quote: “It’s not enough to just commit fraud... You need to gain someone's trust and take advantage of it for the express purpose of getting something that you want that they're not aware of.” — Maria Konnikova (10:15)
    • Tactic for Confrontation: Stroke the ego, avoid confrontation, let the subject feel proud (“They're narcissists. They love being the center of attention and they're proud of what they do.” — 10:58)

The Confrontation: Ollie Meets Leslie

• High Drama at the Car (16:25 - 38:11):

  • The stakeout pays off—Leslie is spotted leaving. Ollie intercepts her as she’s getting into her car (17:03).

  • Initial Reaction: Leslie is surprised but composed. She agrees (reluctantly) to a rapid, impromptu interview, promising further conversation the next day.

  • Notable Emotional Moment

    • As the conversation turns personal, Leslie tears up when discussing her lack of closure with Ollie’s brother, Greg (23:34).
    • Quote: “I never got closure. I never got to say goodbye to your brother. I truly loved him.” — Leslie Mnookian (23:34)

  • Admittance and Deflection

    • Leslie admits some past mistakes, but asserts things could have been handled differently, and shifts some blame onto Greg for not facilitating a "grown-up conversation."
    • On potential fraud: "I feel that maybe some of the ways that I went about trying to get the loans and stuff maybe weren't totally kosher." (22:10)

  • Direct Evidence Presented

    • Ollie confronts Leslie with forged bank statements she submitted to Kiwibank.
    • Quote: “That seems a bit weird for a bank statement, right?” — Ollie (26:13)
    • Leslie is briefly flustered, plays down responsibility: “Those are the ones I just forwarded, I didn't write. Those were forwarded to...” (27:12)

  • On Forgery and the Fake Lawyer

    • Leslie is pressed about the mysterious Eric T. Weiss (her supposed lawyer).
    • When Ollie reveals Weiss’s contact info was actually Leslie’s parents’ home phone, she demurs: “That's because that's super weird to have a... my parents address as Eric's contact information.” (30:04)

  • On Past Allegations and Legal Troubles

    • When challenged about other alleged frauds and criminal activity, Leslie denies wrongdoing, often turning the accusation around or calling the incidents misunderstandings—especially with ex-business partners in Hawaii, Tahoe, and San Diego.
    • Quote: “Signed other people's checks for them. Oh, I would love to know who said that. No.” — Leslie (34:59)
    • On her criminal record in San Diego/Oceanside: “I did not admit guilt to that charge, actually. The charges got dropped... It was a checking account that was open in my name, and it was just a miscommunication.” (36:59)

  • Emotional and Philosophical Appeals

    • Leslie closes by classifying much of her history as “life is life,” expressing regret and a wish for closure, yet also stating, “I'm honestly, I have nothing to hide, and I will be as upfront with you as I possibly can with what I can remember and with... the knowledge I have.” (39:15)

Aftermath and Reflection

• Ollie’s Immediate Reaction (42:38 - 44:44):

  • Ollie is stunned by Leslie’s charisma, even feeling briefly swayed despite the evidence.
  • Quote: “Man, she's good. I even feel like I believe her... in that conversation I'm standing here like, okay, well that seems legit.” — Ollie (42:40)

• Brother Greg’s Reaction (44:54 - 46:38):

  • Greg, the original victim, is unmoved by Leslie’s claims of authentic emotion.
  • Quote: “I don't know, the fact she had form before I was around. No... If there's a pattern of her doing this to many people... I reckon that's all bullshit.” — Greg (45:32)
  • Greg expresses concern for future and past victims, recognizing a repeating pattern.

• Final Reflections & Setup for the Next Episode (47:24 - 48:35):

  • Ollie weighs Leslie’s persuasive emotional act against mounting evidence of a serial pattern, resolving to meet her again and seek further clarity.
  • Maria Konnikova’s comment is previewed for next episode: “In over 90% of cases, true con artists are repeat offenders and given the opportunity to go straight, so to speak, they don't take it.” (48:20)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Nerves in the Stakeout:
  “Well, I reckon mine's more like bats flying out of a cave. All heaps of them at once.”
  — Ollie Wards (02:29)

• On the Nature of a Con:
  “You need to gain someone's trust and take advantage of it for the express purpose of getting something that you want that they're not aware of.”
  — Maria Konnikova (10:15)

• Con Artist Tactics:
  “Stroke her ego. That's actually my number one piece of advice... They're narcissists. They love being the center of attention and they're proud of what they do.”
  — Maria Konnikova (10:58)

• Leslie’s Emotional Defense:
  “I would have loved to... sit down and go through all the numbers, have the bank guy there, everything. I even offered to do that... but then all of a sudden it was come back here, and that's what I was told over and over.”
  — Leslie Mnookian (24:25)

• Admission (sort of):
  “I feel that maybe some of the ways that I went about trying to get the loans and stuff maybe weren't totally kosher.”
  — Leslie (22:10)

• Direct Evidence, Flustered Response:
  “Those are the ones I just forwarded. I didn’t—right. Those were forwarded to...”
  — Leslie (27:12)

• Philosophical Reflection:
  “Life is life, you know, and you got to move forward from it and learn from your mistakes and try to be a better person. And that's what I'm trying to do in my life.”
  — Leslie (33:06)

• Ollie’s Reflection:
  “Man, she's good. I even feel like I believe her... in that conversation I’m standing here like, okay, well that seems legit.”
  — Ollie (42:38)

• Greg’s Rejection of Leslie’s Narrative:
  “I reckon that's all bullshit. If there's a pattern of her doing this to many people, because there's nothing unique about me in that respect.”
  — Greg Wards (45:32)

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Segmentation & Timestamps

• Stakeout Begins: 02:18
• Confirmed Sighting: 05:34
• Expert Interview (Konnikova): 09:49
• Ollie’s Approach & Leslie Confrontation: 16:25
• Direct Confrontation with Evidence: 25:28
• Challenging on Fake Lawyer: 28:07
• Past Victims & Allegations: 34:26
• Wrap-Up & Reflection: 42:38
• Greg’s Response: 44:54
• Preview for Next Episode: 48:20

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Tone and Language

• Ollie maintains a nervous, occasionally humorous, but deeply personal and emotionally invested tone throughout.
• Leslie alternates between calm, defensive, emotional, and philosophical—frequently flattering, deflecting, and re-framing.
• The interview is intimate and conversational but charged with tension, given the high stakes and personal history involved.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Heard the Episode

This episode offers a rare, unvarnished confrontation between a victim and a suspected serial con artist—with emotional, legal, and psychological threads all at play. The tension of the stakeout, detailed breakdown of confidence games, and the blurred lines between avowal and denial make it a standout. As Ollie tries to pin down the truth, listeners are left questioning what closure, if any, is truly possible—and what drives someone to deception in the first place. The story is poised to resolve in the next, and final, chapter.

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Transcript

[Lesley Mnookian]

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[Ollie Wards]

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[Lesley Mnookian]

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[Commercial Announcer]

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[Ollie Wards]

Pushkin.

This episode contains occasional course language.

Here we go. Oh man, it's like game day for a sports person that's been training for ages but only has 30 seconds on the field to kind of prove themselves.

My brother Simon and I are in our ridiculous American muscle car. After months of investigating, today might be the day I come face to face with Leslie Mnookian. You know how sometimes people say that they have butterflies in their stomach? Well, I reckon mine's more like bats flying out of a cave. All heaps of them at once. The trail has led me to this small Californian town called San Luis Obispo. Lesley was spotted restocking shelves in a supermarket here in the last year or so. So we're on our way to that supermarket. Alright. Microphone's in the incognito position down in the centre of the car, sitting in between Simon and I hope you guys can hear us.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Okay.

[Ollie Wards]

All the people I've been speaking to from her past, they all say Lesley won't talk, but I've travelled across the world to be here and I've just got to get Leslie's side of the story. We're pulling into the workplace that Lesley's at or about to be at, and she could be in the traffic around us as we drive around. At this stage, we just want to scope the place out and confirm Lesley still works here. Then we'll figure out how I approach her before we've made a plan. We really don't want to be spotted. Now we play the incognito waiting game. We sit for a while, hoping to spot Lesley Young. Supermarket staff walk through the car park to start their shift. This guy's going in there wearing his apron, so I wonder if there's a uniform, like. Well, there's definitely a uniform, right?

Yeah, true.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Right.

[Ollie Wards]

It's not mufti.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Yeah.

[Ollie Wards]

You're not in casual. Just wear what you want. It feels like everything around us is in slow motion. We're on high alert, sitting up like meerkats, looking around the savannah. Simon's pointing to a black car pulling up. Oh, man. Oh, wow. We could be on here. I honestly think we could be on here. She a female, black hair, sunnies. I can imagine her kind of driving a car like that for some reason. I know. Oh, oh, oh. That honestly looks like her. Bro.

That'S. That's Manukian, mate.

She's hopping out.

No, it's not. No, it's not her.

As we sit here, it seems like everybody could be who we're looking for. Is that her? No.

She doesn't look too far off that, though. No, that's if it's a close. Leslie, there's only one more thing to do. I need to go into the supermarket and see if I can see her. I'm just going to brave a full incognito mode, look around in the. In the supermarket. Why? Because I want to confirm that she is there. I reckon I can do it without being spotted. It's risky. I don't want to talk to Lesley actually, inside where she works. I don't want to create a scene at her workplace. And if she sees me, she might sneak off through a back entrance or something. Okay, here we go.

Walking through the car park.

Maybe the New Zealand accent will give Me away. So I should sort of keep it a little low. This might be crazy, crazy risky, but I'm gonna go even deeper into the supermarket.

Oh, man, this is. This is some hectic stuff. I'm in the shampoo aisle.

Okay. The heart is racing. I'm going down the kind of main aisle now. I'm gonna peel out. Couldn't spot her behind the cashier's desk.

Looking further down. Oh, my gosh, there she is. Absolutely. That's her. She's working in the customer service aisle.

And I reckon I might be able to get a long shot.

All right.

When I come out of the supermarket, Simon is off in the car watching the other entrance. I want to check if I'm right. I sent you a little screenshot and have a look at it, and you tell me if that's her or not. It is 100%. I just saw. I didn't even have to look twice.

Now that we know that Lesley's in there, we just have to be able to spot her when she leaves. I've spent so long hearing from all these people who say that they've been conned by Lesley. Today I finally got a shot at asking her about all this stuff. What really happened in Tahoe, San Diego, Hawaii, and with my family in New Zealand. But I might only have one shot at talking to Leslie, so I need to be prepared. Cool and calm, we retreat away from the car park to finalise our plan. Then it's all on. Welcome to Unravel Season four. I'm Olly Wards and this is Snowball.

It's been 10 years now since I last saw Leslie Mnookian. It took me Most of these 10 years to get past the destruction and lies that woman left in her wake. When my investigation led me to California, my brother gave me this letter for Cameron, the guy you heard from last episode, who owned Phenomenal Restaurant.

I don't know you. Other than we share a terrible experience at the hands of Leslie Mnukian. It takes a while to get through it, but you will.

Perversely, it will help you knowing there are many more victims. It's not such a lonely place when you think it's just you.

For a long time, I wanted to believe that it was just me. That Lesley desperately wanted to start a new life in New Zealand and she felt compelled to do anything to stay here.

This was the emotional side of the equation. I believe Lesley plays on. Even after I saw the evidence, she still played on my emotions with cute names and crap.

Given your relationship with her, you Too would have heard all the stories about how she has been a victim of different people. And there will be a multitude of these stories, but I'm sure they'll all be falling down now, exposed as lies.

I really hope that you're okay and can get yourself sorted and back on your feet.

Best regards, Greg Wards.

That's just part of the letter. In the full thing, Greg also suggested to Cameron that Lesley could be busted for what she had done. But it seems like the only thing that's actually going to catch up with her is me. I think I've learnt a lot about how Lesley operates, but I'm no pro at this kind of thing. I normally stick to coming up with dumb radio talkback topics.

Before I try to talk one on one with Lesley, I want some expert help.

[Lesley Mnookian]

I'm Maria Konnikova. I am an author, a psychologist and a professional poker player.

[Ollie Wards]

Now, Maria Konnikova, aside from having a name combining two Russian tennis players, knows what I might be up against and more. She's a doctor of psychology and she spent three years interviewing con artists for her book called the Confidence Game. Maria says con artists aren't just liars.

[Lesley Mnookian]

The term actually means confidence artist, and it comes from confidence not in the sense of how confident you are, but in the sense of confidence, as in trust. It's not enough to just kind of commit fraud, for instance. Lots of people commit fraud and are just criminals. They're not con artists. And it's not enough to just kind of lie to someone. You're just a liar, then you're still not a con artist. So you need to satisfy all of those things. You need to gain someone's trust and take advantage of it for the express purpose of getting something that you want that they're not aware of.

[Ollie Wards]

That does seem to apply to Leslie's past. She definitely had some plans going on in the background. I also asked Maria for some tactics that might get Lesley talking.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Stroke her ego. That's actually my number one piece of advice. The reason that con artists were willing to talk to me, even knowing exactly what I was doing, knowing that I was writing about them, was because they're very egotistical. They're narcissists. They love being the center of attention and they're proud of what they do. So don't be confrontational. Instead, say, you know, I realize you're a good person. I know. Use their own tactics on them. They stroke your ego. That's how they get to you. So do it right back to them.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Ollie Wards]

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[Commercial Announcer]

So let.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Me get this straight.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Ollie Wards]

So if Lesley is anything like the con artists Maria has spoken to, I need to look out for flattery for her. And from her now I have that swirling around in my brain. Along with trying to be friendly enough to keep Lesley talking while also being firm enough to get some answers. No Worries. That's not the only challenge I'm facing. On our recce earlier we found another potential issue. The supermarket has two entrances and Leslie could leave from either of them. So we plan to split up. Simon will drive to the other side of the car park. If he sees Leslie, he'll stay in the car. I don't want her to feel outnumbered. We drive over to the supermarket. We get there around the time we think Leslie's shift mighty in. Hey bro, are you in position? Yeah, I'm just. I've got like a semi clear view. So now we wait. As we sit there, some dudes go past that give me some confidence. We're blending in. So funny because some guys just drove past similar muscle car with baseball caps on. And I even thought it was me driving past. That's amazing. As the minutes tick by, I start getting cold feet.

I could have just stayed at home. I didn't need to be doing this. It's 12 years ago, everything's fine, it's gone. And making life difficult for yourself Wards. But I pull myself together. I call Simon back to check in. Have you got a good spot on that second door? Okay, my spot's not too bad. I'll just have my phone ready to press your button as soon as I see it. Okay, we're ready. But I'm feeling jumpy. I feel like I just need to keep talking. We are in the best possible park. The closest one to each of the two entrances to this strip mall. It's a one level kind of regional shopping centre that you might expect in, I don't know, Ballarat, Geelong, Hamilton. And now we're just playing the waiting game for her to come out so I can have a chat. Hopefully staff leave through this entrance as well. We did drive around the back.

Oh, here's Simon. Hey man. She's walking just in front of you, bro.

[Commercial Announcer]

Where?

[Ollie Wards]

In the middle.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Walking just down the middle.

[Ollie Wards]

Straight down the aisle. Halfway between me and you. Okay. Oh yeah. I see her. I see her.

I'm running over to her. Oh, she's getting in a car. She's getting in a car. Damn it. Damn it.

As I get up to Leslie's car I hear the engine start. She's about to drive away. I try knocking on her window and she opens the door just to crack. Hey Leslie, it's Ollie Wards.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Hey, what's going on?

[Ollie Wards]

Hey, how are you doing?

[Lesley Mnookian]

Oh my God. How are you?

[Ollie Wards]

I'm good. I've got to let you know I'm recording this because and I'm Making a bit of a documentary about everything that happened with you and our family. And I would love to get your side of the story.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Wow. Okay. Well, right now is not a good time. I'm super sorry.

[Ollie Wards]

Yeah. If you can just really quickly tell me in 30 seconds even. Like, I just really wanted to know because I never got to see you again about everything that happened in New Zealand.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Well, obviously, you know, I'm sure you've heard your parents side and your brother's.

[Ollie Wards]

Side, and I would love to hear your side.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Honestly, I would love to give you. I would love to talk to you. Seriously, this would. But right now is honestly, like, honestly not the best time to do this.

I don't even know what to actually say. You totally caught me off guard.

[Ollie Wards]

I know. I'm sorry. It's really weird.

[Lesley Mnookian]

It's totally you.

[Ollie Wards]

It's totally me. What do you mean?

[Lesley Mnookian]

It's like, that's just your personality. That's how you always have been. You're just a go getter and, you know, you like to get to the bottom of stuff and get the story, and I appreciate that.

[Ollie Wards]

There's that flattery. The psych Maria told me to look out for. Lesley's opened the door less than arm's length. Her engine's running, so I just try to keep her talking.

[Lesley Mnookian]

But I do have somewhere to go. Is there a time that we can. How long are you here?

[Ollie Wards]

I mean, I can catch up with you later today or anything.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Or. How about tomorrow?

[Ollie Wards]

Tomorrow's great. And you know, I really do just want to hear your side of the story.

[Lesley Mnookian]

You. Ollie, I totally believe you 100%. And I would love to tell my side of the story because I think I was unfair in some ways for sure. But I think that everything could have been handled in a completely different way. And I'll start with that. Maybe we can elaborate a little bit more tomorrow.

[Ollie Wards]

That sounds like some sort of admission that Leslie knows she's made some bad decisions, but it's vague. She seems keen to meet up tomorrow and go through things, which is surprising me. She even gives me her number. I don't know, grab a number or something. I.

[Lesley Mnookian]

You know, not a problem. 949.

[Ollie Wards]

Okay, hang on. I'll just take this down. But I don't want to count on that happening, so I quickly ask another question. I know you said that you kind of felt like it was unfair from both sides or anything. If you could elaborate a little bit.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Well, I just feel that.

I just feel that we should have all been able to Sit down and have an adult conversation. And to be really honest, Ali, I blame your brother a little bit for not kind of stepping up and kind of pulling your parents and I together as one and letting us sit down and actually have a conversation about why I did some of the things I did to make things happen. Why, you know, my intent was never to hurt anybody, of course. But. Yeah, there's a lot I could say, but go ahead.

[Ollie Wards]

Just like you never came back. I mean, it was 12 years ago, and I never came back. Did you think about it?

[Lesley Mnookian]

Your brother never once called me.

[Ollie Wards]

He never once called you?

[Lesley Mnookian]

Not after. Not after the initial couple months of us kind of going back and forth and him kind of asking me questions about what happened. I got paperwork asking for an annulment and.

Never heard from again.

[Ollie Wards]

What about the business stuff? I mean, I'm interested as to what happened at the Dragonfly.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Well, you know, the Dragonfly was kind of a.

Yeah, it was kind of one of those situations where, you know, I did the best I could. I got in over my head. Greg got in over his head. I didn't do my due diligence like I should have, either. So, you know, I was a big, big fault at that. But again, I didn't have the support that I needed, the back support, to see what we can do to make this better. You know, my only reaction to the whole situation is, let me go home to mom and dad, sit down, talk to them, see what we can do about it. But then the second I got back to America, it was, you did this, this, this, this, this, this. Instead of, we all did it. We all made the decisions together, and we all. I'm not to say to blame, but I just think from an adult situation, I don't think it was handled the way it could have been. That's all.

Like I said, it wasn't to go there and screw your parents over and screw Greg over or screw myself over. You know, I came back with nothing, too. You know, and I had to start from scratch, you know? But your brother never once tried to. Tried to pull us all in. He never came here. Nothing. Nothing. So what was I really supposed to do?

[Ollie Wards]

Okay, so she's doing a pretty good job of making things sound like it was just a failed business venture, a failed marriage. But Lesley doesn't know how long I've been working on this. The documents people have given me, evidence of possible fraud, fake bank statements, court documents, police reports, even a fake lawyer. She doesn't know that I know all of that stuff. But I think it's on her mind.

[Lesley Mnookian]

I feel that maybe some of the.

Ways that I went about trying to get the loans and stuff maybe weren't totally kosher.

[Commercial Announcer]

Yeah.

[Ollie Wards]

Can you explain that? What do you mean by that?

[Lesley Mnookian]

Well, what I mean by that is, like, I could have revealed my finances more instead of not. I didn't reveal them the way I should have, you know, so that was kind of on me.

[Ollie Wards]

Describing everything as not totally kosher seems.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Like an understatement, but, yeah, I mean, really. I don't really honestly know what else much more to say but that, you know, I mean, like I said, I came back here and it was a lot of. Just a lot of phone calls, a lot of blame, a lot of. Well, you know, send me. I asked so many times, Ollie, to get paperwork to send stuff to me. All I received was some paperwork saying that, you know, I needed to sign over the business, which I did immediately. I signed everything over. Everything that they needed, I did, you know, Right. Right from the start. I didn't try to not do that. But the fact that your brother never came here, like.

[Ollie Wards]

Yeah.

[Lesley Mnookian]

To try and even sit down with me and my parents and, like, let me show you my side. Let me, you know, like, I'm not. I can't come back there because you guys already told me if I stepped foot in your country, I was going to jail. So how could I possibly come and fight my side?

[Ollie Wards]

Yeah. And I appreciate this is upsetting for you, obviously, you know, but it's been.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Upsetting for the last 12 years, Ollie. I never got closure. I never got to say goodbye to your brother. I truly loved him.

[Ollie Wards]

So.

Anyways, what would be the closure that you would want?

[Lesley Mnookian]

It's too late now. I don't. I just would have loved to have said goodbye and sorry for any mistakes I made or bad decisions I made. And I would have loved to have. I would have loved to. For him to have fought just a little harder.

[Ollie Wards]

I'm feeling a bit rattled. I didn't expect Lesley to start crying or to even vaguely concede that she had made bad decisions, but the biggest shock is who she thinks was at fault. I thought maybe Mum and Dad would cop it. Instead, she's saying Greg should have tried to win her back.

[Lesley Mnookian]

I would have loved to have had an adult conversation and sit down and go through all the numbers, have the bank guy there, everything. I even offered to do that, you know, and then all of a sudden it was come back here, and that's what I was told over and Over.

[Ollie Wards]

I have to stop myself from challenging Lesley on that. She could hit the gas at any second. What I really want to do is ask her about some of the things that might be hard for her to explain. What about the trust fund?

[Lesley Mnookian]

What about it?

[Ollie Wards]

Like, so, you know, I just. It seems like. Do you still have it, or.

[Lesley Mnookian]

No, I do not. No, I do not.

[Ollie Wards]

As Leslie speaks, I'm listening and frantically tapping at my phone to bring up some of that evidence that I've got. I just want to show you just a document that I've recovered on my phone. I have the documents that convinced Kiwibank to hand over a $1.5 million loan, the loan my parents guaranteed, thinking that Lesley was putting her trust fund on the line alongside them. Like I said, I've been doing a fair bit of digging around just to try and understand everything that happened. And.

So I'm just showing you this thing on my phone right now, which is a Bank of America statement. Can you have a look at that and tell me what it is?

[Lesley Mnookian]

Okay. From my trust fund, Colonial Trust. Yeah, what about it?

[Ollie Wards]

Well, it's a bit weird because the numbers kind of trail off on a little bit of an angle. So that's.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Okay.

[Ollie Wards]

So you had about 5 million in there, right?

[Lesley Mnookian]

Okay, yeah, that's what it says.

[Ollie Wards]

But it's just a bit weird because then the number trails off on a little angle down on the side here. And if you actually add these four numbers. Well, these four numbers, it's starting balance, money in, money out, closing balance. It's actually wrong by about $616.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[Ollie Wards]

That seems a bit weird for a bank statement, right?

[Lesley Mnookian]

Yeah, it sure does.

[Ollie Wards]

And because the other thing is, I found that. That statement, but I also found this Barclay bank statement, which was a joint account between you and Greg, which looks really similar. Like, it's. It's got, you know, the same things. Money in, money out, closing balance. The format's the same. The.

[Lesley Mnookian]

You know, dad had said something about this too many years ago, something about bank statements. Is this what he was referring to?

[Ollie Wards]

Yeah. I mean, even the barcode is the same on the two statements.

[Lesley Mnookian]

I believe I remember him saying something about that. And, no, I don't have an explanation for that.

[Ollie Wards]

Okay.

[Lesley Mnookian]

I don't know what to tell you.

[Ollie Wards]

We've heard how Leslie always has a story, but with those documents on my screen right in front of her, she doesn't know what to say.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Those are the ones I just forwarded. I didn't. Right. Those were forwarded to.

[Ollie Wards]

To the from you to Kiwi Bank.

[Lesley Mnookian]

To Kiwi Bank. Okay, yeah, I remember those.

[Ollie Wards]

But do you think it's a bit fishy that that statement looks the same as the other one and it was forwarded from you to.

[Lesley Mnookian]

I haven't really looked at them. Looked at them. But if you want to send them to me, I mean, I can give you an answer right now, but yeah, it kind of looks fishy, but I don't know, like, what to say.

[Ollie Wards]

Okay, cool. Okay. Leslie specifically says that she was just forwarding things on to Kiwibank. I know who sent them to her. It was her old mate, Eric T. Weiss, esquire. He's the lawyer Lesley would use for her bank admin as well as her supposed book and movie deal. The guy we're pretty damn sure doesn't exist. I want to ask about Eric, but I want to start gently. Can you tell me about your lawyer, Eric T. Weiss?

[Lesley Mnookian]

Okay, what about him?

[Ollie Wards]

What's his deal?

[Lesley Mnookian]

He's just my attorney, that's all. I mean, I haven't talked to him in a few years, but yeah, that's about it. Why?

[Ollie Wards]

I tried to look up a lawyer called Eric T. Weiss, and I noticed that you're one he Los Angeles.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Uh huh.

[Ollie Wards]

Okay. Could you put me in touch with him, do you think?

[Lesley Mnookian]

Sure. I mean, if I have his phone number still. Like I said, I haven't talked to him in a couple years, but I can get you the last known number for him. I'd be happy to, no problem.

[Ollie Wards]

Leslie's sticking with her story about Eric, so I'm thinking I can roll with this. So Eric T. Weiss, he was helping you, you were writing a book, right?

[Lesley Mnookian]

Mm.

[Ollie Wards]

And what ended up happening with that?

[Lesley Mnookian]

Never got published, actually. Yeah.

[Ollie Wards]

And what was that? The story of your life.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Story of my life.

[Ollie Wards]

Mm. Can you tell me about what happened with it?

[Lesley Mnookian]

No, it just never got published. We actually sent it out to a few publishers, and I think about 10 or 12 just got. You know, it's a chance you take. I don't know, like, what to say.

[Ollie Wards]

Okay, cool. And just on the letter that was sent from Eric T. Weiss to Kiwibank, along with these statements in the email, it gave a phone number for Kiwibank to call if they had any questions. And that was actually the number for your parents place in California. What do you make of that?

[Lesley Mnookian]

It was the same phone number.

No, I don't know.

Why. And so why did Kiwi bank not call and verify?

[Ollie Wards]

They did, and they spoke to somebody. So I was wondering who they would have spoken to.

[Lesley Mnookian]

That can't be possible. There's no way that my parents would like, pretend to be somebody, if that's what you're trying to. To say.

[Ollie Wards]

That number is still in the white pages listed for Lesley's parents.

[Lesley Mnookian]

I'm.

[Ollie Wards]

I'm just asking the questions, you know, so I'm just trying.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Can I see that or that?

[Ollie Wards]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So awesome.

[Lesley Mnookian]

That's because that's super weird to have a. To have my parents address as Eric's contact information. And what's. Also the bank advisor actually spoke with Eric on three different occasions when I was sitting, sitting in his office. The bank guy that gave us the loan. So he would have had the number, the direct number.

[Ollie Wards]

You mean he spoke with the Eric T. Wes?

[Lesley Mnookian]

Yeah, yeah, he had to. I mean, to, to, you know, get all the financing and get all the approvals and all that kind of stuff, you know.

[Ollie Wards]

Yeah, exactly.

[Lesley Mnookian]

It wasn't just like coming from me. Like he had to get. He had to verify all the information. I mean, we went through like a 10 to 12 day period where he had to basically take all the information and verify it. Make sure everything was like kosher, you know what I mean?

[Ollie Wards]

Just a second ago she was saying she could have revealed her finances more, but now she's saying everything was kosher. I just showed you that the statement that he used to show that didn't even add up.

[Lesley Mnookian]

I understand. Yeah, no, I see what you're saying, but I'm also saying that the bank that gave Greg and I the loan, he verified all that information, not just through me. Like he had to call all of the financial institutions in order to verify those funds in order to give us a loan.

[Ollie Wards]

I want to steer things over to Lesley's parents, Betty and Andrew. Okay, cool. I'd love to have a chat to them about what they know about everything as well. Would that be okay?

[Lesley Mnookian]

I don't know. I mean, I'll have to ask them. I'll be happy to. I mean, you know, I mean, it's been a long time and I'm sure they wouldn't have a problem with it. They always liked you. They always liked Greg. I mean, I mean, you know, and they were sad that, you know, stuff happened the way they did.

[Ollie Wards]

There's more I could ask about her parents, but I realise those questions can be easy to deflect. And before Lesley bails, I want to keep hitting as many topics as I can. You told me all about your trust fund and your bar in Hawaii and all of that stuff. Like, what was the deal with all that?

[Lesley Mnookian]

True. It was true. I mean, I had my bar in Hawaii. I had my bar in South Lake Tahoe. I owned a restaurant up here in Paso Robles. I mean, none of that was lies.

[Ollie Wards]

Interesting. She feels the need to specify none of that was lies. Now that she's brought up some of her past businesses, I ask about them, starting with Hawaii. Lesley says her problems there happened because she's a mainlander.

[Lesley Mnookian]

If you do a lot of research on Hawaiale, you'll know what it's like to be a Hai and go over to those islands and try and be successful there with the local Hawaiian people. And you can pretty much ask anybody that, and you'll get the same story. So, like, Hawaii is a very gnarly place. It's. You can't go there and. And.

Kind of, I guess, look at me type of person, which I did. You know, that the story I told you, Completely true. And it's happened to several other people.

[Ollie Wards]

If I remember rightly. Some people kind of, like, came. You told me that they came to, like, sort of break into your place.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Broke into my house. Police reports are even over there on that. Broke into my house. I hid under the bed.

I've had a lot of trauma.

[Ollie Wards]

You mentioned there was a police report. I've actually got a police report from that you filed there about the place getting broken into and a ring being stolen and you found a knife on your pillowcase. So are you saying that was a different incident or that's one of the incidents?

[Lesley Mnookian]

I'm not really sure, actually, how many reports the police actually filed. I'm actually really surprised that one was even there. So, yeah, there was several incidences where I called the police more than once, Holly, more than once, begging for support, begging for them to actually, you know, take care of the situation as far as that. That situation was concerned. And none of that, you know, really matters now, I guess. Kind of grown, you know, grown to accept that those were the things that were supposed to happen to me, you know, Same with New Zealand. But life is life, you know, and you got to move forward from it and learn from your mistakes and try to be a better person. And that's what I'm trying to do in my life. And I'm really sorry that Greg and I never got the closure, you know, But I really do wish that he would have given me that at least and came and talked to me and asked me the story instead of you. I mean, I'm glad to see You.

[Ollie Wards]

But as Leslie becomes philosophical with life is life, to be honest, for a moment, I'm kind of with her. Her sort of shit happens attitude is pretty disarming when it's off the cuff in a car park. But then I remember I've heard a lot of allegations from a lot of people. I need to ask her about them. Yeah, I mean, there's just lots of questions I have around. You know, people have said that you've sort of forged checks in the past and signed. Signed other people's checks for them. Have you ever done that?

[Lesley Mnookian]

Wow. Signed other people's checks for them. Oh, I would love to know who said that. No.

[Ollie Wards]

And that's when I start to get into a sort of allegation, response, ping pong, starting with this stuff about checks. Firstly, the Brazilian surfer called Georges, who told the cops Leslie had stolen his chequebook and charged up 13 grand.

[Lesley Mnookian]

No, absolutely not. I have no idea what he's talking about on that. But for him to say I stole a checkbook. No, he actually stole money from me on a surfboard.

[Ollie Wards]

She refers to Georges by his nickname, Jocker Joka.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Didn't even have any money, so I don't even know what he's talking about. As far as checks are concerned, Georges.

[Ollie Wards]

Stands by what he told the cops and says he never took anything from Leslie. There was also the other guy in Hawaii, Scott, who told the police Leslie had stolen his credit card and checks.

[Lesley Mnookian]

If he's who I believe he is, older gentleman with gray hair. He actually gave me a credit card when I was over there in Hawaii. And this is, this is true story. He. He gave me a credit card to buy supplies for the restaurant. And I went and I bought supplies for the restaurant, would not sleep with him. So then he turned around and called the police and said, I stole the credit card and bought liquor with it. That is exactly what happened. No checks were ever involved. He never wrote me a check, Nothing.

[Ollie Wards]

So what about Tahoe, where it seems like there was some disputes with the landlord of her bar over unpaid rent?

[Lesley Mnookian]

I have no clue. That would probably be between my dad and him. I don't know. My name wasn't listed on that, was it?

[Ollie Wards]

Yes, it is.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Yeah, I have no clue. Never went to court up there ever once. So I got in trouble for a traffic violation up there, but that's it.

[Ollie Wards]

I figure it might be harder for her to explain what happened when she got hit with charges related to check fraud. What about in San Diego and Oceanside? No, 2003?

[Lesley Mnookian]

No, I think I had some chart. There was some bank situation, but it got dropped. It was nothing that I did. It was nothing illegal.

[Ollie Wards]

You ended up pleading guilty to a misdemeanor for that. It was a burglary charge after six felony counts.

[Lesley Mnookian]

I did not admit guilt to that charge, actually. Actually, the charges got dropped on that situation because it was a checking account that was open in my name, and it was just a miscommunication. That was a long time ago. I can't give you exactly the details, but. No, I didn't go to jail for that. I didn't get a felony for that either. It was suspended because the charges got dropped. So if you did dig a little bit further, it would not. There's nothing on my record for that at all.

[Ollie Wards]

Actually, she pleaded guilty to one of those charges, but I press on. I want to know about Cameron, the phenomenal owner from last episode. Did Leslie forge his checks?

[Lesley Mnookian]

No, absolutely not. And if he's saying that, then he can come and tell me that to my face.

[Ollie Wards]

It's hard to nail down the details on these things while I'm just just lingering next to her car. I want to make sure Leslie feels like she'll get a fair hearing when we meet tomorrow.

[Lesley Mnookian]

So if you want to meet. If you want to meet me or give me a ring and we can maybe go have coffee or something and finish this up. I will do that for sure.

[Ollie Wards]

That would be great. I would really appreciate that. And then, you know, you'd be. I'll be able to show you some of the stuff I've got, and you can take me through it.

[Lesley Mnookian]

That would be fine. I'd be happy to do that. Really, Ollie.

[Ollie Wards]

All right, Leslie, I'll shake your hand. I'm sorry to bail you up your way out of.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Okay. No, you know what? I. I'm not shocked. I'm not shocked at all, really. Thinking about you the other day. Yeah, I was. I. I don't know, you kind of popped in my head a few days ago, maybe about a week ago or so, and I was kind of wondering how you were doing and how far you went with. With your life and stuff, and, you know, I think often of New Zealand and. Yeah. So I'm not shocked at all. And I'm not mad. So. You know, there's a lot of things in my life, Ollie, that I've done that I'm sorry. And there's some stuff that I've done that I'm not either, but I think all of us have, you know, and one. One is one of my biggest regrets is not being able to go back to New Zealand and settle stuff the way an adult should be able to have the opportunity to do.

[Ollie Wards]

It occurs to me that I've asked about stuff from the past, but what does she think of what I'm doing here? I'm making a podcast, which is about everything with you and my family. And then obviously, I've been sort of, you know, looking into what's been happening with you over the last, you know, 20 odd years or so. So what do you think of that?

[Lesley Mnookian]

I think that if that's something you want to do, go for it. You know, I'm not insulted. I'm not.

Intimidated by it at all. You know, you do what you want to do. Okay. I'm. I'm honestly, I have nothing to hide, and I will be as upfront with you as I possibly can with what I can remember and with. With the knowledge I have. Okay. I will give you that.

[Ollie Wards]

A cool thing you might like is I've approached Alyssa Milano to play the role of you.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Oh, you did? Really? Thank you. That's pretty funny.

Thank you.

[Ollie Wards]

Okay, let's talk tomorrow. Okay. Thank you.

[Lesley Mnookian]

You guys have a good one. Okay. All right. Take care. Thank you. Take care.

[Commercial Announcer]

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[Ollie Wards]

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[Ollie Wards]

Wow.

Man, she's good. I even feel like I believe her. I'm walking, I'm. I've been looking at these statements and, you know, forgeries and everything for like quite literally months. And in that conversation I'm standing here like, okay, well that seems legit. And I really hope that Leslie will meet with me tomorrow to talk through some of this stuff.

Oh man, here's Simon.

Do you want to jump out of the car?

In a weird way, I was just saying, I. She's very convincing. Oh yeah. Are you flipped now?

[Lesley Mnookian]

I'm.

[Ollie Wards]

She's very convincing. Cool as ice. She did cry at one point and she said that she really loved Greg and she was really disappointed he didn't fight for her. Yeah, I mean, I can't really comment on that. Cause I don't know what to believe. We've just spent the last four or five days of people just showing us fake, fake, fake stuff that she did. So it's hard to really believe anything she says. But I don't know, like, she was with Greg for a couple of years, you know, so I'm sure she has feelings for him. It's probably impossible not to. You know, I'm just.

Amazed at how friendly she was and she was giving and she had a lot of nice things to say about me. And she was even at the end there saying, ah, I was thinking of you just the other day. And.

You know that her big disappointment is she can't come back to New Zealand now because dad told her that she would be arrested.

Because she committed fraud. The thing is When I was showing her stuff and she's like, you know, she was doing the shaggy. Wasn't me. You know, I'm like, but I caught you in the fake bank statement. Wasn't me. And what do you say to that at this point?

Yeah, just one second, buddy. I'm sure no one else is on the Internet that night. Simon and I call Greg. It could be tough for him to hear, but we want to play him some of what Leslie said.

[Lesley Mnookian]

I never got closure. I never got to say goodbye to your brother. I truly loved him. So.

Anyways, do you think that's real?

[Ollie Wards]

Real feelings?

Oh, I'd like to think so, but. And little. Yeah. Part of me says, yeah, but.

I don't know, the fact she had form before I was around. No.

How do you explain.

So many victims? Like, you know, was it just one mistake or is she just, like, a fucking serial offender? And it's hard not to see how she's not. It goes back to what she just said in the car there. Never got closure. Truly loved your brother. I reckon that's all bullshit.

If there's a pattern of her doing this to many people, because there's nothing unique about me in that respect. Greg isn't completely without sympathy for Lesley, but for the most part, his sympathies lie elsewhere. We've beeped out Cameron's real name here, so I'd imagine she's having a pretty shit night. But for me, it's just a little bit about other people too, you know, it's not just about me. I guess what I mean by that is, you know, is what what would say. What would the Brazilian guy in Brazil say? And all those other people, you know, they'll just be like, fuck, she said the same shit to me, too.

Greg. Like I said last night, bro, you've been super brave just even entertaining this thing. You've been honest and put yourself out there. Wore your heart on your sleeve, bro. And you're the one that's actually worn this. Arguably harder than Mum and Dad, even. So, mate, good on you, bro. Love you. Love you, bro. Yeah, well, I mean, I don't know you guys. Yeah, just.

I think it's pretty amazing what you guys have done. I mean, you guys have done this for us, right? As well. So, you know. Right back at you.

Ti. Today was a big day, man. That was a big day.

Yeah, bro. Big day.

I don't know what to make of it all yet. Leslie was as cool as a cucumber in a cup of ice cubes, but I know lots of what she said melts away when I show her evidence. If she shows up tomorrow, maybe she'll admit more.

Next episode. So I sent Lesley a text suggesting that we meet up at the Starbucks near the supermarket she works at, and she's just sent me a text back. So here it is.

Hi Ollie, and good morning. It was really good to see you too. In the meantime, Simon and I start thinking about what Lizley's life must be really like. This kind of existence must be traumatic and fucking sad and just horrible. I'll need some help to understand that.

[Lesley Mnookian]

They'Re motivated in the sense of power over other people, control over other people's lives. In over 90% of cases, true con artists are repeat offenders and given the opportunity to go straight, so to speak, they don't take it.

[Ollie Wards]

That's next. Time for the final chapter of Snowball.

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[Ollie Wards]

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[Commercial Announcer]

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[Ollie Wards]

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[Lesley Mnookian]

This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA, in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing. If anyone has ever said you snored loudly or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your.

[Ollie Wards]

Airway partially or completely collapses during sleep.

[Lesley Mnookian]

Which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company. Get ready for your next TV obsession. All's fair Starring Kim Kardashian, Naomi Watts, Niecy Nash Betts, Teyana Taylor With Sarah Paulson and Glenn Close A team of fierce female divorce attorneys leave a male.

[Ollie Wards]

Dominated firm to start their own filled.

[Lesley Mnookian]

With scandalous secrets and shifting allegiances both in the courtroom and within their own ranks, these ladies know that lawyers are a girl's best friend. Don't miss the two part season finale of All's Fair on December 9th on Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. This is an I Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.