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This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Did you know Tide has been upgraded to provide an even better clean in cold water. Tide is specifically designed to fight any stain you throw at it, even in cold butter. Yep. Chocolate ice cream. Sure thing. Barbecue sauce. Tide's got you covered. You don't need to use warm water. Additionally, Tide pods let you confidently fight tough stains with new coldzyme technology. Just remember, if it's gotta be clean, it's gotta be tied. In today's super competitive business environment, the edge goes to those who push harder, move faster, and level up every tool in their arsenal. T Mobile knows all about that. They're now the best network according to the Experts@ookla Speedtest. And they're using that network to launch Super Mobile. The first and only business plan to combine intelligent performance, built in security and seamless satellite coverage. That's your business. Supercharged. Learn more@supermobile.com seamless coverage with compatible devices in most outdoor areas in the US where you can see the sky. Best business plan based on a combination of advanced network performance coverage layers and security features. Best network based on analysis by OOKLA of speed test intelligence data 1h 2025 this is Justin Richmond, host of Broken Record. When it comes to the holidays, I believe you fall into one of two camps. Someone who loves holiday music or someone who won't admit they love holiday music. There's something about a voice you love singing a familiar opening phrase. Maybe it's Donny Hathaway. Maybe it's Mariah Carey that just flips a switch and you instantly back into that warm and cozy headspace only the holidays can bring. For me, that feeling pairs perfectly with a cup of Starbucks caramel brulee latte. That's their signature espresso with steamed milk and a rich caramel brulee flavor topped with whipped cream and a crunchy caramel brulee topping. It's like the sound of the season, but in drink form. And that's really what this season's about. Because this season and every season together is the best place to be. Come together over your favorite holiday favorites at Starbucks. This is Tim Harford from Cautionary Tales with Tim Harford. It's 1972. A young British family is attempting to sail around the world when disaster strikes. Their boat is hit by killer whales and it sinks. In seconds. All they have left is a life raft and each other. How will they survive? The true story of a family's fight for survival, hosted by Becky Milligan. This is Adrift, an apple Original podcast produced by Blanchard House. Apple TV subscribers get special early access to the entire season. Follow and listen on Apple Podcasts. Pushkin. If you're landing here for the first time, best to go back and start this story at episode one. It's the morning after I found my brother's ex wife, Leslie, in a Californian car park. How'd you sleep? Simon and I wake up in a cheap motel. Really well. No crazy dreams last night? The bed sheets are thin and crumple like crepe paper. We're still buzzing out. Just more of a crazy dream all day, really. Eh. We lie there debriefing my chat with Leslie. How are you feeling about what she said now? Any different? As in, like, I was kind of convinced and, well, I wasn't convinced, but I definitely. Yeah, yeah, I'm not convinced, but I do. I did feel sorry for Leslie and I felt that there was genuine sadness and maybe even a touch of remorse from her side of things. But having slept on it, even just for a few hours, I think that her sadness and her remorse is like. I think she recognized that her life is not what she wanted it to be or even perhaps what it could be. And she kind of like looked up at me like, almost like, you know, she was going, please don't make me face all of this stuff. And I felt. I think what I was feeling is I felt bad for doing that. Am I just being charmed like everyone else in this story? From the brief chat I had with Lesley, it's hard to tell. I had left her with the plan to meet up and go through everything in detail. If we can sit down and talk, I won't have to rush through my questions. Maybe I can get her to talk about what she really meant when she said things weren't totally kosher. And instead of going slowly, I can just straight up ask her if she did stuff like inventor, fake lawyer, Eric T. Weiss to fool people. If she can really answer to all of this stuff, she'll turn up. So I sent Lesley a text suggesting that we meet up at the Starbucks near the supermarket she works at. And she's just sent me a text back. So here it is. Hi, Ollie, and good morning. It was really good to see you too. I hope you understand. All the things you asked about is all 10 plus years ago and I have moved on from all of it and so has my parents. Okay, Cameron's story is actually from about six years ago, but anyway, I appreciate you want both sides, but in all fairness, you should have reached out way before 12 years later, I am past all the pain, lies, deceit and loneliness my decisions have created for me, and I have laid it all to rest. I really have thought long and hard through the night and decided that I do not wish to bring it all back. I wish you all the best, Ollie. And good luck with all your ventures. Hmm. So I guess that's it. We won't be seeing Leslie again for the final episode of this season of Unravel. I'm Ollie Wards, and this is Snow. I wasn't really in the mood for asking any more questions, but we had already planned one more stop on our road trip. A beautiful beachside town just down the road where Lesley had worked. When we got there, Simon had a beer in the bar and told some people why we were in town. Word went round, and then a lady approached me. She said she had known Leslie. Oh, yeah. We were very close, actually. As close as you can be to her. Yeah. Okay. She had all the familiar stories about Lesley having tall tales of successful international restaurants and a trust fund, but to be honest, I was over it. More of the same wasn't going to help me understand everything. Then, just as we were wrapping up, she said something that really hit me. She was homeless at that time period when she was here this last time. I might just grab. Sorry, can you just say that again? She was homeless for a time. For most of the time, she was working here this last time because she slept at the campgrounds and she. Because I helped her move a camper to the campground, and she slept in the back of her car, and then she slept over at a hotel, because I remember going over there and having pizza with her. And so I know she didn't have a place to live here. That's really sad. Yeah. And why was she sort of homeless if she had a job here and was working? I don't know. She was always looking for a place. As I walked back to the hotel room, I turned my recorder on. That doesn't make me feel good, like nobody should be homeless. I feel sad that Lesley's going through her life going from opportunities and circumstances like living in Maana in New Zealand, right down to sleeping in her car, maybe in a beautiful place, but nobody deserves to be homeless. And I just really hope that. I don't know, something can jolt Leslie out of this because she's not winning out of any of this. When Simon came back, I told him what I had found out. The saddest thing was she said that when Lesley was here, she was homeless. Shit, that sucks. It just adds, like, it just, you know, we were saying kind of like, this kind of existence must be traumatic and fucking sad and just horrible and just kind of like, yep. I'm not surprised when you say that. Like, my heart sinks a little bit. I'm like, fuck, you don't really wish that kind of shit on anyone. Even if they've kind of done you wrong and stuff like, I don't know. It's sad. It's sad. You know what I mean? I guess I thought this whole thing was gonna wrap up neatly, like a movie. Being in America, running around doing this investigation. It often feels like I'm in a movie. The car, the accents. So I was kind of expecting all my questions answered and tied up in a pretty bow instead. Things feel complicated. I didn't expect to end up feeling sorry for Lesley, but I kinda do. She has brought a lot of this on herself. It's just her situation. I kind of feel sorry for some of the people that she hurt. Took years to recover, but they're all mostly back on their feet. It's Lesley that seems to be in this cycle of starting over again with nothing. If it turns out Lesley's biggest victim is herself, then why would she keep the cycle going? That's what still doesn't make sense to me. But then I remember something that came up when I spoke to the psychologist Maria Konnikova. What motivates the con? Because in our case, Lesley didn't get away with a whole lot of money, and that is not at all uncommon. I think it's a huge misperception among the public that con artists are motivated by money. I really think that's not it at all. Because for the most part, con artists don't make a lot of money and are incredibly intelligent and could have made much more money in more legitimate professions. And so I don't actually think it's about financial gain at all. I think that why they do it is power. They're motivated in the sense of power over other people, control over other people's lives. The idea that they're shaping other people's reality a way that they want to shape it. This is something that can be incredibly intoxicating. And I think that that feeling of power is actually one of the reasons that con artists are, more often than not. And by more often than not, I mean, like, in over 90% of cases, true con artists are repeat offenders. And given the opportunity to go straight, so to speak, they don't take it. They can't take it. Even though they say they will and they. And they want to, because they're always kind of driven back to that, and they are unable to let go of that rush of power over other people. I mean, it is intoxicating if you think about it. You're playing God. You're controlling other people's lives, you're crafting their realities. You're creating entire worlds, and people believe you. Creating entire worlds. Like the world of Eric T. Weiss. Leslie could control all of that. Maybe that's what this was about. Not money, but a feeling of control, a feeling of power. Oh, and remember what Lesley said about putting me in touch with Eric? Like I said, I haven't talked to him in a couple years, but I can give you the last known number for him. I'd be happy to. No problem. I followed up over text and asked Leslie for Eric's number. She never gave me one. So I guess that means that her old mate, Eric T. Weiss, Esq. Will be lost to history. Fictional history. That leaves one more question that's been on my mind all along. It might be the most troubling question of my investigation. Where do Lesley's parents fit in? We'll be right back. Hello. Hello. I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of the podcast smart talks with IBM. I recently sat down with IBM's chairman and CEO, Arvind Krishna, and I asked him, how can companies use AI to its fullest potential to create smarter business? My one advice to them, pick areas you can scale. Don't pick the shiny little toys on the side. For example, if anybody has more than 10% of what they had for customer service 10 years ago, they're already five years behind. If anybody is not using AI to make their developers who write software 30% more productive today with the goal of being 70% more productive. Yeah. So we are not asking our clients to be the first experiment on it. We say you can leverage what we did. We are happy to bring out all our learnings, including what needs to change in the process. Because the biggest change is not technology, is getting people to accept that there's a different way to do things. To listen to the full conversation, visit IBM.com smarttalks. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. It's a great time to apply for an Apple Card. You'll love earning unlimited daily cash on every purchase. That includes 3% daily cash when you buy the latest iPhone and AirPods and Apple. Watch at Apple through this special referral offer. When you get a new Apple Card, you can earn bonus daily cash. To qualify, you must apply at Apple co getdailycash Apple card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City. Branch offer may not be available elsewhere. Terms and limitations apply. You know what separates the pros from the rest? It's not just talent. It's how you respond. When the game gets tough, you dig in. You fight back. 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Best business plan based on a combination of advanced network performance coverage layers and security features. Best network based on analysis by Ookla of Speed Test Intelligence Data 1H 2025 Dr. Konnikova doesn't know Lesley or her parents, but she said something that gave me a new perspective on what it might be like to be in their position. Oftentimes, you know, people like the parents aren't in on the con as such, but they've been deceived. You have to remember they've been living with a con artist for their, for the entire life of that con artist and it's their daughter. So you have an emotional involvement. And if you, if you, who are, you know, who didn' know Leslie when she was younger and had no kind of family or blood ties initially, if you were able to be pulled into her web, just imagine how difficult it is if you're related to her. If you have kind of the closest relationship of all. I think it could be incredibly difficult. And I think that those are families are often the biggest victims of con artists and will defend their children, will defend their loved ones to the end. I did try to speak with Lesley's parents, Betty and Andrew. At the tone, please leave a message for this is Betty. We're not available right at the moment. Please leave a message. Record your message at the tone. Hi Betty, it's Ollie Wards here. You might remember me, Greg's little brother. I'm sure Leslie has told you that I am reporting a story just regarding Leslie where I'm trying to understand. I also emailed them and sent them a letter. No response. Lesley might have told them not to talk to me. After some friendly texts back and forth with Lesley, things had turned sour. She started to find out how many people we had spoken to for this podcast and in particular in that last town we went to, Lesley heard that we had mentioned some of the allegations about her to some people at her old work and she was not happy about it. Okay, a text message has just come in from Lesley after not hearing from her for a little While she says, lose my number. A journalist doesn't slander a person's character at their old workplace. This is not a story for your podcast. This is revenge Trip. So fucked. Ollie, after all these years, you reach out to me or my parents, ever, and I will file a restraining order against you, Simon and whoever else I need to. Restraining orders on us and everything. Now, of course, you know, like, heavy. Oh, man. Jeepers. What Lesley didn't know was that revenge couldn't have been further from our minds. When I set out on this trip, I wanted to understand what happened and to get Lesley's side of the story. It was important to get her response to people all over the world saying she had conned them. But at the end of our trip, I've realised Lesley isn't some sort of two dimensional movie villain. She's a complex person with motives maybe she doesn't even fully understand. And maybe the person who has suffered the most from what Lesley has done is Lesley herself. So I don't feel vengeful, I just feel sad. Sad for Lesley. Sad for everyone who felt deceived and devastated by her, and sad for my brother, Greg. I didn't know if Greg would react like I did, so I told him that Lesley might have been homeless. It's hard to feel sorry for someone when they clearly have choices. And the thing with Lesley is she's had lots and lots and lots of choices. So her being homeless, supposedly that's bad, but that will be a consequence of her actions, which will have affected lots of other people around her who, let's call them the victims. So that drops my sympathy down quite a few notches. Around that time when Lesley might have been homeless, Greg had got himself back on his feet. So where I did get to was a lucky place. I have a beautiful, highly supportive, intelligent wife and we have a pretty magical young daughter. And then we live in a beautiful suburb. I've got a good job that provides for us and all of the good things are ahead of us in life. As for my mum and dad, they were mostly able to move on, too. In a case that happened after Lesley left New Zealand, Mum and dad sued the lawyer who worked on the Dragonfly deal. The matter was settled before it went to court. I can't say much about it for legal reasons, but it worked out that Mum and Dad were able to get enough money to buy a home of their own again. Dad had to go back to work, but after a few years of tough times, my parents got back to being happy where they are. They even reflect on some good that came out of everything. And now we honestly have moved on and don't really think about that time much at all. It was a very. Perhaps almost, you could say, another defining moment for our family. I think in many ways, it brought us all together. Not that we were apart, but it sputtered us in pretty well, actually. For me, it's a gratitude. It's nothing to do with her. It's how loved and cared for that we are, that so many people cared for us, for the immediate family. They were so amazingly brilliant. And you three for sticking with it and holding us up. And at least we've got something to talk about at dinner parties, so they're not entirely free of us. Not that we talk about it now at dinner parties. We don't have dinner parties. We're too old. And like he always does. My brother Simon sums it up for us. I'm actually really proud of us through it as well. I don't know, like a big thing of this was just how, you know, and I always. I always repeat it, but kind of. I don't. The reason that I don't feel angry with her or kind of forgiven her is just because of how close it made us. You know, we changed as a family through this. And so, yeah, so I just. Yeah, I'm just. I love, love you guys. Some good came out of it. Yeah. Yeah. For almost a year now, I haven't been able to talk to my family without it being about this podcast. I'm looking forward to going back to talking about the usual stuff, like how to turn the video on. Here we go. Ollie wants to connect with you on Skype, except, well, we've got contact. Yep. You can hear me. Can't see me. I can see you and hear you. And I need to call Greg more. I don't catch up with my brother nearly enough. This whole thing has been a good reason for us to talk, for me to understand something so profound in his life. But it's been hard sometimes to draw a line between my brother and the story I'm trying to tell. One time, Greg called me and he started to cry. He was telling me about how he still feels pain from what happened. Part of my brain was thinking, I need to record this. Call him back with the recorder on. But the rest of me was thinking, my brother is upset right now and I need to be there for him. You didn't hear that call because I stayed on the line with him. To Greg, I'm not a journalist reporting his story. I'm his brother. The story started with him and it needs to end with him. I asked Greg to think about what he's taken away from this whole experience. The important things are the things that are pretty close to you, like family and friends and what can fulfill you and make you happy. A lot of those things are actually right in front of most people right now. Things like being able to wake up on a weekend and walk your daughter down to the local school so she can play on the playground. You don't need to have a Ferrari to drive her there. It didn't need to be a life in the fast lane. The good life is hopefully what most people can get and that is living on a regular street, doing regular things and working hard for them. I think that's, that's what it comes down to. And there's a beauty to simplicity that's hard to replace with money and possessions. They ultimately don't really satisfy. I don't think. What really matters was always here and it was actually right in front of me. I really hope you've enjoyed coming along for this ride. You can find a bunch of extras including a feature article and the video of my confrontation with lesley at the ABC's Unraveled True Crime website. You can hit me up on Instagram lliewards and if you share this story, please use the hashtag UnravelTrueCrime. Roll the credits. Music Snowball is hosted and produced by me, Ollie Wards. Big love to my brother Greg and my entire family for letting me tell this story and thank you so much to the awesome team I got to work with, including Unravels supervising producer Tim Roxburgh, audio producer Emma Lancaster, fact checking and additional audio production from Shane Anderson, sound designers John Jacobs and Tim Jenkins. The biggest of UPS to flight facilities for our theme song. Additional music Bryce Halliday. Unravel is a product of ABC Audio Studios led by Kelly Reardon and Unravel's executive producer is Ian Walker. Sa. Sam, You'll never really know what was real or not. 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Visit spinquest.com for more details. This is Michael Lewis from Against the Rules, the Big Short Companion. This podcast is brought to you by FedEx the new power Move. You know those people who show up late to meetings or events on purpose to make themselves look like they are so busy? That's really the old power move. The new power moves are calling out logistical problems before they arise, or knowing every detail about your shipment every step of the way. FedEx the new power Move. This is an Iheart podcast. Guaranteed human.