Classical Architecture with Peter Pennoyer

Summary

Deep Dive in Design: Episode Summary – "Classical Architecture with Peter Penoyer"

Release Date: June 18, 2025
Host: Dara Caponigro
Guest: Peter Penoyer, Renowned Architect

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Deep Dive in Design, Dara Caponigro welcomes esteemed architect Peter Penoyer to explore the enduring allure of classical architecture. Their conversation delves into the nuances of classical design, its relevance in modern architecture, and Peter's personal experiences in the field.

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The Resonance of Classical Architecture

Dara Caponigro opens the discussion by expressing her deep connection to classical architecture, describing it as the foundation of her architectural perception.

"Classical architecture is almost like my reality. ... based on a system of proportion and harmony and beauty."
— Dara Caponigro [00:52]

Peter Penoyer probes into Dara's affinity for classical architecture, prompting her to elaborate on how it shapes her architectural vision.

Dara emphasizes that classical principles can be subtly integrated into modern designs without overt classical elements like columns.

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Inspirational Buildings and Architects

The conversation shifts to notable examples of classical architecture, particularly in New York City.

Dara highlights the New York Public Library as a paramount example of classical architecture, praising its comprehensive design—from the grand exterior to meticulous interior details.

"The New York Public Library... incredible achievement on so many levels."
— Dara Caponigro [02:26]

She contrasts monumental structures with the more intimate, anonymous streetscapes of neighborhoods like Park Avenue, appreciating how these environments collectively create a beautiful and human-centric urban experience.

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Classical Architecture in Modern Living

Peter acknowledges Dara's recent project, The Benson apartment building on Madison Avenue, and inquires about the balance between classical design and the needs of modern families.

Dara discusses the misconception that classical architecture is rigid and outmoded. She explains how her designs incorporate open-plan layouts while adhering to classical proportions and harmony.

"We tend to do plans that actually, if you don't look at the architecture, the walls look like open plan."
— Dara Caponigro [05:09]

She provides a personal example, describing her own home's open first floor, which facilitates seamless interaction between spaces—a modern necessity achieved through classical design principles.

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Designing Personal Spaces

The dialogue transitions to Dara's approach to designing her own house in Millbrook. She shares her initial sketches inspired by historic villas like Sir Johnson's Pitshanger Manor and the collaborative process with her partner, Gregory Gilmartin.

"We knew how many bedrooms, and we knew that we wanted the kids to have bathrooms... these little things became challenges to weave them into one design."
— Dara Caponigro [14:59]

Peter notes the harmonious collaboration between Dara and her interior designer, Katie, highlighting the importance of allowing each professional to maintain their creative autonomy.

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Architecture’s Relationship with the Land

Dara elaborates on the significance of a house's placement within its natural surroundings. She expresses a desire for designs that allow visibility from all directions and frame natural vistas effectively.

"If you can also orient it to a distant view or some view and literally think about how the important rooms frame that view... that's the magical part for me."
— Dara Caponigro [18:05]

She shares an example from her project for writer Louis Auchincloss, where the library's positioning captures the sweeping valley views of the Catskills, illustrating how architecture can interact seamlessly with the landscape.

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Classical vs. Modern Architecture

Reflecting on past collaborations, Dara discusses her critical perspective on modern architecture. She appreciates minimalist designs but finds them less resonant compared to the layered complexity of classical architecture.

"I prefer architecture that has layers and complexity and isn't oversimplified."
— Dara Caponigro [19:43]

Peter recalls their joint experience judging the Institute of Classical Architecture awards, noting Dara's skepticism towards modern styles that may not age gracefully.

Dara concurs, pointing out that many modern buildings lack the timelessness of classical structures and often require extensive modifications to maintain their aesthetic appeal over time.

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The Longevity of Architectural Styles

Dara reflects on why classical architecture endures, suggesting that its continual evolution and the dialogue between past and present make it perpetually relevant.

"Everything that we do today is building on all the buildings we've left in the past... there's a continuity and a shared kind of language."
— Dara Caponigro [07:29]

She shares her fascination with how each generation reinterprets classical principles, ensuring that classical architecture remains dynamic and innovative.

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Impact of Architecture on Behavior

Peter inquires whether Dara believes good architecture influences how people behave. Dara responds thoughtfully, acknowledging that while architecture can enhance comfort and dignity, it doesn't control behavior.

"There are some rooms that make us all feel comfortable... it's a constant reminder of how we have to work on our skills and our craft."
— Dara Caponigro [08:52]

She explains that harmonious and well-designed spaces can elevate the user's experience, fostering a sense of dignity and order.

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Design Process and Client Collaboration

Dara outlines her collaborative approach with clients, emphasizing the importance of visual communication and comprehensive planning.

"Have people show me pictures or talk about buildings they like... it's a helpful way of having conversations about design using visuals."
— Dara Caponigro [09:41]

She stresses the necessity of compiling detailed lists of desired rooms and features to balance client aspirations with practical design constraints, ensuring the final project is both beautiful and functional.

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Advice for Aspiring Architects

Towards the episode's conclusion, Dara offers valuable guidance for budding architects:

1. Travel and Sketch: Engage with diverse architectural styles firsthand.
2. Study Intentions: Understand the motivations and challenges behind different architectural movements.
3. Collaborate: Focus on solving specific architectural problems and leverage specialized expertise.

"Travel and look and sketch... try to solve architectural problems and not start out by trying to solve global problems."
— Dara Caponigro [24:32]

She encourages young architects to appreciate the collaborative nature of the profession and to continuously refine their craft through study and practical experience.

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Closing Remarks

Dara and Peter conclude the episode by reflecting on their shared passion for classical architecture and its profound impact on the built environment. Dara reiterates the importance of embracing tradition while fostering innovation, leaving listeners with a deeper appreciation for the timeless qualities of classical design.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "Classical architecture is almost like my reality... system of proportion and harmony and beauty." — Dara Caponigro [00:52]
• "The New York Public Library... incredible achievement on so many levels." — Dara Caponigro [02:26]
• "We tend to do plans that actually, if you don't look at the architecture, the walls look like open plan." — Dara Caponigro [05:09]
• "If you can also orient it to a distant view... that's the magical part for me." — Dara Caponigro [18:05]
• "I prefer architecture that has layers and complexity and isn't oversimplified." — Dara Caponigro [19:43]
• "Everything that we do today is building on all the buildings we've left in the past... there's a continuity and a shared kind of language." — Dara Caponigro [07:29]
• "Have people show me pictures or talk about buildings they like... it's a helpful way of having conversations about design using visuals." — Dara Caponigro [09:41]
• "Travel and look and sketch... try to solve architectural problems and not start out by trying to solve global problems." — Dara Caponigro [24:32]

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This comprehensive discussion between Dara Caponigro and Peter Penoyer offers valuable insights into the enduring relevance of classical architecture, its harmonious integration with modern living, and practical advice for emerging architects. Whether you're an architecture enthusiast or a professional in the field, this episode provides a profound exploration of design principles that stand the test of time.

Transcript

[Dara Caponigro]

Welcome to Deep Dive, a podcast series in which Frederick's editor in chief, Dara Caponigro, and fellow editors are joined by design industry leaders to share their unique insights, experiences, and knowledge on the world of decorating.

[Peter Penoyer]

Today we have the illustrious architect with us, Peter Penoyer, who's a dear friend, someone I've known a very long time, and I've watched his career grow and blossom, and now he's one of the preeminent architects in the United States. So welcome, Peter.

[Dara Caponigro]

Thank you, Dara. It's thrilling to be here, and I treasure our friendship, especially any friend who calls me illustrious.

[Peter Penoyer]

Well, it's really nice to have you here. Today we're going to talk about your work and about classicism in particular. So when I think of your work, I think mostly about classical architecture. What is it about classical architecture that resonates with you?

[Dara Caponigro]

So, I mean, I'd say classical architecture is almost like my reality. It's like every building that I've seen that I love kind of builds up in my mind over the years, and the years go by and it becomes kind of a library of images and ideas. And I think a lot of the architecture we look at is actually classical, whether or not it has the obvious attributes of classicism. It doesn't have to have columns and pilasters, but a lot of the best architecture, even work that looks more modern, is basically classical in that it's based on a system of proportion and harmony and beauty. So that's what it's all about. It sounds like a kind of vague answer, but it's all there. It's all in my head, and it keeps building.

[Peter Penoyer]

So do you have a photographic memory of buildings when you say that, when they enter your head and you keep building on them?

[Dara Caponigro]

I wish I did. I don't think it's that accurate. And that's why I have books. And my friend Gregory Gilmartin, who's in my office, collects books, and we have his library, which now amounts to thousands of books.

[Peter Penoyer]

Wow.

[Dara Caponigro]

And then I travel and I sketch and I take photographs, and of course, we all are beginning to build up images in Instagram, So all of the above. I wish I did have that photographic memory where I could just file things away. That would be terrific.

[Peter Penoyer]

But you do have an incredible grasp of architecture in terms of historic architecture. So what are some of the buildings and architects that really speak to you? And are there specific ones? And can you tell us a little bit about why?

[Dara Caponigro]

Right. So, I mean, as a New Yorker, I think it's fair to Say, there are some buildings that are monuments, that are wonderful, and then there's some buildings that are almost anonymous, that are just part of the cityscape. So the New York Public Library, for example, is, I think, the most important classical building in New York, and just such an incredible achievement on so many levels, from the plan to the section to the way you move through it, the whole experience of it, down to the smallest detail base on the. You know, the statues in front, the base on the flagpoles, the lamps. So there's an example of a singular monument that is, you know, extraordinary. Then I might be walking down a street, 70th street, off of Park Avenue, and there are probably five or six or seven wonderful houses on that street. Can I tell you off the top of my head, who's the architect of each one? No, I can't. But they all come together. Some of them are sort of ordinary, and some of them are more special, but they make a place that is a wonderful place to be, and it feels human and beautiful and intimate, and that's the kind of anonymous streetscapes that I love about New York. And frankly, when I travel, I also love that. So it's not always about looking at the masterpieces, although I love doing that, too. It's about what a place feels like when you put together all the buildings that make the place.

[Peter Penoyer]

Yeah, that's one of the fun things about watching the Gilded Age that I found recently. It's just like, you know, the architecture and the. It gives you a real appreciation for the Upper east side, in particular.

[Dara Caponigro]

Yes.

[Peter Penoyer]

Have you watched it?

[Dara Caponigro]

I've watched it, and it's fun for me because I love looking at it. But I also have studied enough about New York architectural history that I actually know which building preceded the building that they live in. Oh, wow, that's cool. So I know there was a bizarre Gothic castle right there at the corner of that street at Fifth Avenue that belonged to a woman called the Princess del Drago. And this enriches it. So the study of history does enrich your feeling about looking at architecture and looking at a street.

[Peter Penoyer]

You've done a multitude of projects. So you just finished a apartment building on Madison Avenue, which is incredible. And it's called.

[Dara Caponigro]

It's called the Benson.

[Peter Penoyer]

The Benson, yeah. So that's extraordinary. And then, obviously, you do really beautiful homes, and you're designing for modern families. So is there ever a push and pull between, you know, what a modern family might need and, you know, the tenants of classical architecture?

[Dara Caponigro]

Well, I think that the classical Architecture suggests to some people something perhaps out of date, something formal, and especially the idea that maybe it means that the rooms are quite closed off one to the next, and that's not necessary at all. In fact, we tend to do plans that actually, if you don't look at the architecture, the walls look like open plan. So my own house has no doors between any of the rooms on the first floor other than one library, which is really useful during COVID but the rest of it is actually open plan. That's an example of a way of using classicism that works well for the way we live. Now. I can be cooking in the kitchen, and I can talk to someone who's, you know, friend or family at the dining room table, and then they in turn can look both at the living room and the kitchen. That's just a basic kind of connection that I don't think would have existed in, you know, a 19th century house.

[Peter Penoyer]

Right.

[Dara Caponigro]

And in fact, our friends have a 19th century house just a couple of miles away. And there is a similarity in the architectural aesthetic. It's Greek Revival, but you go from one room to another through a little door that you can close because it's drafty. Right. And all of that.

[Peter Penoyer]

Right. So there were reasons for some of that architecture.

[Dara Caponigro]

Yeah, there are reasons. And I mean, if it were a very formal house in the 19th century, you'd want the door into the bedroom to swing so you wouldn't see the bed, because if your servant came in. I don't have that. We don't have that. But, you know, so even things like door swings were different in traditional architecture.

[Peter Penoyer]

Oh, that's so interesting.

[Dara Caponigro]

And even things like light. So, you know, in the house in the Gilded Age, those rooms would have been much darker, and they would have done something called the Rembrandt lighting, which is when they pulled the curtains so closely that they could arrange it so there was one shaft of light entering your parlor, and that was considered desirable. Or in Georgian architecture, they would block up the windows on one side of the bedroom in order to only have light from one side, which is considered desirable.

[Peter Penoyer]

And why, though, that's so interesting?

[Dara Caponigro]

You know what? I still haven't gotten to the bottom of that mystery.

[Peter Penoyer]

That's so interesting. Why do you think classical architecture has such staying power? Does it make you feel a certain way? What is it about it?

[Dara Caponigro]

At some level, it makes you feel small and untalented. Because when you look at the great architecture of the past, it means you're challenged to try to measure your work against it. And we discover very quickly that none of us are geniuses. And we're trying to do something that's exceptionally challenging and requires great patience and painstaking effort and love for all of it. So it makes you feel. It's a constant reminder of how we have to work on our skills and our craft. But the reason I think it stays with us forever is because it keeps building. And everything that we do today is building on all the buildings we've left in the past and in turn, how other architects have interpreted other models. So there's a continuity and a shared kind of, you know, language. And if you can do something today that is somehow builds on something in the past but makes it better or different, that's incredibly rewarding.

[Peter Penoyer]

Do you think good architecture and great rooms make people behave differently?

[Dara Caponigro]

Oh, well, I wish. I wish I could control people with architecture. No, but, I mean, there are some rooms that make us all feel comfortable. Right. And there are some rooms that make us feel uncomfortable. So, yes, that's an important part of it. But I'm not sure we can actually get people to behave.

[Peter Penoyer]

I just wonder if maybe it makes them be the best version of themselves or something.

[Dara Caponigro]

Yes. I mean, I think if you design a room that beautiful and calm and harmonious, I think it feels. It's like it brings a kind of dignity to what you're doing. You know, if you're having a dining room that is arranged, I think just the arrangement of things in their right place is important. You know, you set the table. Right. You do all these things. It's just part of the same spirit.

[Peter Penoyer]

Yeah. Dignity, I think, is a really something to aspire to. It's a nice word. So when clients come to you, they obviously have a huge appreciation for your work. Tell us a little bit about what the process is for designing a house from scratch with your client.

[Dara Caponigro]

So I believe in having people show me pictures or talk about buildings they like. I don't think that that tamps down our creativity at all. I think it's a helpful way of having conversations about design using visuals rather than just, you know, talking about design ideas in the abstract. And they have to be prepared for me to say, I like that. But I think we could do much better than that. So it's not all, give me that or give me this. It's not a laundry list. It's more just a way of spurring conversation. And then I think it's really important that we always have a list of every single room someone thinks they want and possibly a size for that room, which isn't ever going to be the size and the design. But we think it's really important to be able to get everything you want into something and then add up what that means in terms of size. Because very often, and this happened to, you know, Katie and I when we did our own house, you do the list and then you realize, well, I didn't want to build a 8,000 square foot house. I only want a 6,000 square foot house. So it helps you discipline your goals before you fall in love with something you've drawn that actually turns out to be too big. So bracketing in a way, having the architecture bracketed by your real programming needs and desires is very important. Which is the opposite of the idea of having the genius architect run off and just do some bursts of creativity.

[Peter Penoyer]

Right. It sounds like it would really make for a house that the people that you're designing for are very comfortable in.

[Dara Caponigro]

Yeah. And we tell people, make your list and don't try to edit it down too far. And also put things on it that might be impossible on the face of it to achieve. You know, I want my breakfast room to have east light, but I also want to be able to see the sunset or, you know, things that might not be look like they're possible. Just put all the challenges into that list and then we'll do our best and try to solve for them.

[Peter Penoyer]

That's so interesting. Has the client ever brought to you a, an idea where you're like, oh my God, we have to discourage this.

[Dara Caponigro]

And usually it's about size. You know, the idea, you know, we've had a couple of times people say I want my house to be a number of pavilions connected by galleries or hallways. And then, you know, that turns out to be a wonderful idea that's, you know, just so wildly extravagant when you add up sort of the area. But most people's ideas have a germ of something really wonderful.

[Peter Penoyer]

And do you feel like a house can be too, you know, like what's too big for a house? Is there any rule or just depends on who's living there and how they live in it?

[Dara Caponigro]

Well, I mean, it's clearly less challenging to make a beautiful house that's under 6,000 square feet. That's. I don't know why that number, but it seems to be if you get to 10,000, it's more challenging. And every time you add a thousand, it still could be a beautiful house. And I've done houses that are larger than that, but it becomes more challenging, interesting. And I think these mega houses are really tough to, you know, and at some point, if you, especially if you want a house to be like a beautiful object that you see from every angle, if they become too sprawling, it's, it's, you know, you have to then deal with how to unfold the house visually as you approach it so that you don't see all of it.

[Peter Penoyer]

Yeah. And that's something that a lot of people don't think of, I'm sure. You know, they probably think, oh, I want the biggest house I can afford, and.

[Dara Caponigro]

Right.

[Peter Penoyer]

And so you're doing them a real service.

[Dara Caponigro]

Well, I don't know. I mean, my problem is that all my clients seem to be very sensible people. So.

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[Peter Penoyer]

We've talked about how hard it is to design a house for yourself. So how did you approach designing your own house up in Millbrook?

[Dara Caponigro]

Yes. Well, architects aren't supposed to do this, right? It's like a danger sign. So I had always been sketching a square villa as my ideal dream house, based on houses like Sir Johnson's Pitshanger Manor, which is near London, which has been beautifully restored and is open to the public now, and other houses that I thought were really beautiful, that were simple but classical. And I always had this idea. So I began sketching madly and eventually gave all my trace to my friend and partner, Gregory Gilmartin, who then shut his door and turned all my crazy ideas into what we see now. But we did have a program. We knew how many bedrooms, and we knew that we wanted the kids to have bathrooms and all these basic things. And I love cooking, so I wanted to be able to see the dining room. And it didn't bother me that if we had a dinner party, the people were looking some of them into the kitchen. So there were sort of arrangements of things which way the rooms faced, the connection to the garden. So the garden path, which is at the center of Katie's garden, is directly in line with a hall that runs through the whole house. You can stand anywhere in the house and look through. So all these little things became challenges to weave them into one design.

[Peter Penoyer]

And you mentioned Katie before, so she's an incredible interior designer and you've worked on lots of projects together. So, I mean, did you just start it together from the beginning? I would imagine so.

[Dara Caponigro]

We did, but she gave me real space to do the architecture, and I gave her complete space to do the interior design, you know, and I told her, you know, I was happy to see colors and fabrics, but I didn't want to make it designed by committee. I wanted her to do what she thought was her best work without me trying to edit it, because I wouldn't be able to see the complete, for instance, living room. Had she told me, you're going to have a pink living room, I wouldn't have been able to understand how that would make sense until, you know, she. Well, we have these big, tall curtains that are this, I would call it drab green. That doesn't sound great, does it? But it's against the pink. It's beautiful. And then they're portieres. So the way it all worked together, it turned out to be the best thing to let her do her deal without my interfering. Although she did let me put in a few antiques that maybe were. There's statues in the house, which she was very patient about, except when I arrived with, I think, the third or fourth Abraham Lincoln bust, who said one too many. So he's in my office.

[Peter Penoyer]

I now sounds like a great reflection of your marriage. That's so nice. It's really a good recipe, I think, for a happy marriage.

[Dara Caponigro]

I mean, it would be that or be bad reality tv, I suppose.

[Peter Penoyer]

So tell us about how you think about a house's relationship to the land.

[Dara Caponigro]

You know, the dream for me is finding a place on the land where you can appreciate the house from all four directions. That's not every site is like that, and it's, you know, that's the idea of finding kind of a commanding position that makes it fit on the lot. And then the other layer, which is really exciting, is if you can also orient it to a distant view or some view and literally think about how, you know, the important rooms. Not every room frames that view. So, you know, the first house I designed for the writer Louis Auchincloss and his wife Adele was framed from his library directly onto the sort of the valley between two distant peaks in the Catskills. And that kind of oriented that house. So if there's something like that in the land, a tree, some physical features, and you can frame it with a view, that's the magical part for me. Or, I mean, it's pretentious to say magical. It's understandable that you're treating the lens almost like a painting, because I think frame views are much more powerful sometimes than just the view you get if you stand in a field.

[Peter Penoyer]

Right, right. That makes sense. All right, so years ago, we judged the Institute of Classical Architecture awards together. And I remember you're talking about modern architecture, and it felt to me back then that you weren't a big fan. Is that still the case?

[Dara Caponigro]

I would say that, first of all that I'm, you know, I'm happy for people who want to build, you know, the Apple Store as their house or live in a white box in a kind of minimalist, you know, environment. That's fine, but I don't find it very resonant. And I prefer architecture that has layers and complexity and isn't oversimplified, because I think architecture, decoration, art, just the passage of our time in our lives is never simple. So I don't feel comfortable in super wide, stark houses. Some people actually love them. And also I worry about any architecture. And this goes for some traditional practices too, where you think you're. You delude yourself into thinking that you are the source of the genius of the design. And so you look into yourself constantly or to your last work. And I think it's better to challenge yourself by looking at what other people have tried to achieve. And again, it makes you feel small. Right. So that's another problem I have with some modern design that it seems. Seems to be solipsistic and not looking out at the world and not as challenging, which is kind of the paradox, like actually engaging with history and tradition, I think is more challenging and can be much more radical than just making something super simple.

[Peter Penoyer]

Interesting.

[Dara Caponigro]

Yeah.

[Peter Penoyer]

Well, one thing you said to me that day, which I had never thought of was that modern buildings don't age as well.

[Dara Caponigro]

That is a problem. It's a very interesting subject, especially if you like preserving buildings and restoring them as I do, because I love when we have an old brick or stone building, we like to have all the imperfections there. Even though we restore and fix everything, we like to show the signs of time. If you restore a glass building, you're actually, as happened with the Colgate Palmala building on Park Avenue, the Landrest Commission allowed them to replace the entire skin of the building because there is no way of making that look better and it doesn't look great with the passage of time.

[Peter Penoyer]

So your passion for architecture certainly doesn't seem to have waned since I met you. Did you ever think about becoming anything else besides an architect?

[Dara Caponigro]

I really didn't. Isn't that terrible? I was one of those.

[Peter Penoyer]

Oh, I think that's fantastic.

[Dara Caponigro]

As an annoying child who's sitting in my room, you know, trying to teach myself perspective and you know, briefly interested in the International Style, which is much more susceptible to like self taught perspective.

[Peter Penoyer]

And if you were going to give advice to a budding architect, what advice would you give?

[Dara Caponigro]

I'd say travel and look and sketch. Don't just take pictures, but sketch and you know, think about how buildings you look at were put together and why they look the way they do. And then, you know, I'd also say read and try to understand architecture you're looking at in terms of the architect's intention. Try to learn about if you think you want to do minimalism. We'll try to find out who the architects were who did that really well and understand the struggles they went through. And I would say try to solve architectural problems and not start out by trying to solve global problems because I think we're all really concerned about climate change and all those things. And the good news is that I think the engineers and the people who make the parts that make buildings are really good at this and are bringing us forward. Every year things get better. But students shouldn't try to feel like they have to solve all that initially because a lot of people we work with every day are bringing expertise that's way beyond. For instance, we use people called envelope consultants even on houses to try to refine the insulation better and better and better. And I think it's a little bit arrogant for us architects to think that we're going to marshal all of those engineering and technical aspects when really we should collaborate with people whose life mission is to get that better.

[Peter Penoyer]

So, Peter, thank you so much for joining me.

[Dara Caponigro]

Thank you, Darryl.

[Peter Penoyer]

It's really fascinating. Thank you. I mean, it was a pleasure.

[Dara Caponigro]

It's been great. Thank you so much. Thanks for joining us today. Stay tuned for next week's episode of Deep Dive.