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- [00:01]
Dara Caponigro
Welcome to Deep Dive, a podcast series in which Frederick's editor in chief, Dara Caponigro, and fellow editors are joined by design industry leaders to share their unique insights, experiences, and knowledge on the world of decorating.
- [00:16]
Frederick
All right, so welcome, everyone, to our Deep Dive with Charlotte Moss. Charlotte is an interior designer and tastemaker extraordinaire, as we all know, and one of the things that we're here to discuss today. How do you set your clients up for success after you've done your decorating? So when you set up to do a house, where do you start and what do you think about and what are your priorities?
- [00:41]
Charlotte Moss
Oh, you know, I asked. I answered this question some time ago about, you know, do you start with the rug? And the answer was no. We start with a conversation. Just like we're going to have the Deep Dive today. We do the deep dive with our client. It's the old John Fowler, Nancy Lancaster. You've got to understand the minutia of life. Otherwise, how can you decorate for someone where you don't understand whether or not they eat their breakfast in the dining room, the breakfast room, the kitchen counter, or in bed? You know, you have to ask these questions. So for me, it's really about that initial conversation and the right questions to ask. And sometimes it gets a little personal and people don't know where it's going. But I always assure them that in the end, it'll make a house work better the more honest they are with me. But then I think, Dara, in that conversation, that as you pursue that conversation, and it may be the second time you get together, that images, I think, are incredibly helpful for people to be able to just sort of point and shoot and say what's great. What we're really looking for is eliciting emotion. I'm looking to elicit emotion so I can get that response, that excitement, read their eyes, and know how to direct my conversation. It really has nothing to do with anything. Furniture, fabric. It's emotion.
- [02:24]
Frederick
So do you mean the finished product is emotion or the conversations that you have in advance?
- [02:29]
Charlotte Moss
Oh, I think it's both. I mean, you know, if I don't get a great emotion on installation day, when you do your walkthrough, then I think you have a problem. But I think you would have known long before then. I think if you start there, you'll end there.
- [02:45]
Frederick
I really believe that you really interview them and you take what they say seriously and you work it into your schemes and all of that.
- [02:55]
Charlotte Moss
Yeah, I think you have to, because, look, how much money is being spent and invested in all of this. So I think you're obliged to do it as a professional.
- [03:07]
Frederick
So when you have all of that information, is there a room that you typically start with or is it the room that is most important to them? How does that work?
- [03:17]
Charlotte Moss
Well, sometimes it sort of bubbles up in the conversation. So then you just take that thread and you run with it. But you know, every once in a while there'll be someone that says, or I mean, let's just say someone has a picture of a bathroom that's totally mirrored. Well, then you know that you've got somebody that's ready to sort of go for. Go for glam. And so that tells you something. Someone says they want their house painted all white. That's another message. So you just have to pick up on that messaging, I think. And you know, it could start with the master bedroom, it could start with the dining room. It really doesn't matter to me. But somewhere in there, you're going to get a feeling for where it's going. And then you just have to, you know, go with your instinct and, you know, pick up the cookie crumbs, as they say, and follow the path.
- [04:10]
Frederick
So I've been, I've been very lucky. I've been invited to your house. I had one of the most. It was the night of that New York City blizzard that we were completely uncovered.
- [04:20]
Charlotte Moss
You are such a star to even make it. I can't believe.
- [04:24]
Frederick
Incredible. But you made it. I mean, it was so beautiful. I can't think of a nicer place to be. Your house is so well appointed and everything is beautiful wherever you look. You know, whether it's the curtains or the art or the. Or I mean, you set the most exquisite table. I think you have really perfected the art of living well. So in terms of your clients, they must also learn from you. So what are the things that you think? Like if you say I've succeeded, if I've taught them this, what are some of those things?
- [04:56]
Charlotte Moss
Well, I think you always want to teach your clients that patience is a virtue, especially in this business when the lead times can be sometimes extraordinarily long. So you have to remind them of that. I think understanding value, how to spend money for value. Sometimes waiting, not just spending to spend to fill a gap, but really to invest the money in things with good value and keep a sense of humor, you know, through the whole process. I think if you don't have that, I think you can really get yourself in a twist. I think A sense of humor will really get you through the day. I mean, that's what my mother taught me, and that's what I've had. I've tried live my life well.
- [05:47]
Frederick
I'm sure they feel incredibly, you know, safe with you. Like, you have a way. I mean, I think because you know so much, you know, they must feel very confident and you're leading their way. Leading the way.
- [06:00]
Charlotte Moss
But I think we challenge each other, Dara. I mean, I feel it's my job to sort of push an envelope, to see how far they're willing to stretch and then to understand limits at the same time. I'm learning that whole time, all the time. And I'm saying this to my staff. The most important thing you can do in any relationship, any relationship is listen. Just listen. Listen to their words and listen to what's between the words. Because sometimes that's the biggest reveal.
- [06:39]
Frederick
Right. And that's what will make them happy ultimately. Right? Yeah. There's no point in fighting with them if you're.
- [06:45]
Charlotte Moss
Oh, no, no, no. None of that.
- [06:48]
Frederick
Yeah. So what are some of the things that you've learned from your clients? Whether that's about running a household or, you know, big take life takeaways, are there things that you've learned from them?
- [07:00]
Charlotte Moss
Well, I think the most important thing is that everyone's different and that while we may decorate within a certain style, we have to adapt for the needs of those clients. And I think that's. That's probably the biggest thing is you just can't superimpose a program, if you will, on people. They're all different. And you have to learn to bob and weave. That's going to be, I think, really important to the process. I mean, I don't care whether it's. You're dealing with children. You know, how you have to bob and weave with children, you have to do it with clients, you have to do it in business situations. We all have to learn how to be flexible, nimble, and to listen.
- [07:46]
Frederick
So you spend a lot of time after you finish the house or maybe toward the end of the project. Project. Really making sure that it all runs properly. Right. You told me about a book that you. That you create for your clients.
- [07:57]
Charlotte Moss
Yeah. I mean, I think the most critical. I'm not in this business. Let me just say why I'm in this business. One, I love it. I love the challenge of an empty room and making it come to life and seeing a smile on someone's face. You know, as long as I've been doing it now 35 years, I still, you know, get that rush when that all happens. But we. I think it's really important that people enjoy their house after you've gone. I mean, you know, installation day is a big day. You do the walk through, you know, the music is on, the flowers are there. No. The scented candles are burning. I mean, the whole thing. The stage is set, and you don't want them waking up the next morning and go, now what? No, you want them to. I always like my clients to plan a party because I think that really is like breaking in the shoes. It really lets people relax, you know, drop their shoulders and truly enjoy their house. So all along. And there's a critical part of the decorating process just because of the way. Maybe it's because of the way I live. I don't know what it is, but it's important that the notepad is next to the phone. So why can't that notepad be attractive? Whether it's the monogram, a drawing of the house, maybe it's just the address, something that sort of sets it apart. That looks like you took that level of detail all the way through to the end. It's the. The beautiful embroidered hand towels in the main powder room. So you receive your guest in a beautiful, welcoming sort of way, setting your tables. I'm thinking about those things the entire time I'm decorating. And sometimes I'm doing those things before I finished the furniture and the curtains and everything else. Because I don't see it as a sequential process. I see it all part and parcel.
- [10:11]
Frederick
So if you're young and you don't kind of have the confidence maybe to tell, you know, a client what to do? Like, what would you. What would you advise a younger designer in terms of helping guide their clients? You know, because it. I think it takes a level of authority.
- [10:29]
Charlotte Moss
I think you've got to know what your limits are. I think, because when you try to explain something to someone, your knowledge and your authenticity is either going to be right there on the table or it's not. So you've got to know what your own limits are. But that all goes back to doing your homework. And, you know, you can do a lot of homework and get yourself up to speed in order to advise your clients. I think it's really understanding what you know and what you don't know. And I think that's one of the most important things in life to understand what you don't know. And if you don't know it, you just say, I don't know, but I will find out.
- [11:11]
Frederick
So good. It's simple, but it's so good. I love it. Yeah, but that takes confidence to just admit that you don't know something. You know, a lot of people aren't confident enough to do that, but you've just given everyone permission, so.
- [11:27]
Charlotte Moss
Well, take it for what it's worth. What can I say?
- [11:31]
Frederick
Wow. It's great.
- [11:37]
Dara Caponigro
We're going to take a quick break to thank the sponsor of today's Show, Schumacher. Since 1889, the fifth generation family business has been the go to source for textiles, wallpapers, and trims. Their insatiable passion for luxury, beauty, and quality have produced designs that transcend time and rise above the ordinary. So head to Schumacher.com to check it out.
- [12:03]
Frederick
So when I was in New Orleans, when I was still the editor in chief of Veranda and I was in New Orleans, it was probably like eight years ago. I photographed this amazing, amazingly beautiful house. And it was a young couple. They were like in their late 30s, early 40s. And I went to set the table for the, for the photo shoot, and I said, you know, can I look at your china to see what we can use? And they said, oh, well, we got rid of all of it, you know, we have nothing left. And all they had were plain white dishes, you know, from like Crate and Barrel. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but, you know, they just were. It was so different than what I was expected and so surprised on a lot of levels, but also because it was, you know, a couple from the south. And you always think of Southerners really, like, appreciating all these old things that they inherited. So, I mean, the world has gotten more and more casual. So do you think there's still room? Like, how do you get young people interested in all of this stuff?
- [13:03]
Charlotte Moss
Well, I think it, again, it goes back to that conversation about finding out their comfort zone in certain areas. I mean, some people just don't want to go there. I think there's a way to figure out how to start them, like with that white china. I think the most important thing is that it doesn't matter if they had 100 white plates. If that gives them joy, great. The last thing you want is a bunch of stuff that makes you anxious. There's so many ways to go. So it's really what gives you joy. And then if you have to take baby steps, I think a lot of people that throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to those things will circle back sometimes. And if they don't. It's fine. It's whatever works for you. Who's to judge? You know, I personally don't understand it because I have more china than. Oh, my God, way more than I really need. But I've gotten it from all different places over a long period of time, and I use the heck out of it. I love having people at home, and I love doing the table. That's me. But it just may not work with somebody else. Have to understand what makes them happy and relaxed and anxious.
- [14:22]
Frederick
That's very interesting, the whole anxiety idea. So. And it goes back to comfort, right? Feeling at home.
- [14:28]
Charlotte Moss
It all goes back to that. I mean, I think of all the people that I've learned from that are dead and gone. You learn about comfort listening to that Nancy Lancaster talk about comfort. I've learned by studying people like Mon Giardino about how to layer. I love Billy Baldwin's restraint. And every once in a while, I have to remind myself that restraint is a very good thing. You know, you learn from all different kinds of places. And I learned from Mario, you know, may he rest in peace. He was one of the first decorators to come into my first store, and we had a long, long relationship. And I learned from him to stick to your guns about what you're good. Good at. You don't have to morph into something because everybody else is. You just do what you do. And to have a sense of humor, because he had a great one.
- [15:33]
Frederick
Yeah, he really did.
- [15:35]
Charlotte Moss
He really had. And he loved what he did. You know, it made him crazy sometimes, and he made us crazy, but we loved him for it. So you learn different things from different people.
- [15:46]
Frederick
Yeah, that's true. So besides your own incredible books, are there any other books that you'd recommend for someone just, you know, wanting to learn more about. About either design or running a house?
- [15:58]
Charlotte Moss
Well, gosh, that's probably a conversation in itself, Dara, about what are the baseline books that every decorator should have in their library? And, you know, Mario Proz, Cornforth and Fowler, and, you know, so many great books. There aren't too many books out there about running a house. And I think Martha Stewart's probably done the best and maybe the only really broad book about every detail in the house. There are other little things. We have a whole collection of little books we put together for a client, but that's a good one.
- [16:42]
Frederick
So those Mario Pross books, I was turned on to them by Peggy Kennedy, and they are incredible.
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Charlotte Moss
They are incredible.
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Frederick
I feel fortunate to have those. And I look at them all the time. And you get inspired. Window treatments.
- [16:57]
Charlotte Moss
Right. But you are also fortunate to have a boss mentor who suggested those kind of things to you, that you can walk on your own, on your own time and learn. And that's really important, too, that I think we all take the time to share information.
- [17:18]
Frederick
Right. It was interesting because I heard the other day somebody suggested that you have to choose your mentor, which I never really thought of. Right. I mean, I don't know, but you almost have to go after your mentor, which I thought was such great advice.
- [17:32]
Charlotte Moss
I think a lot of those people sitting out there that are willing to mentor would be flattered to be chosen to have that opportunity. But again, I think that's people's reluctance to ask, you know, because they're scared to show someone that they don't know something. But again, I think that is strength of character, is being able to own up to what you. That you know, what you don't know, and you're willing to do what's necessary to figure it out. And that's important, too, really important, because.
- [18:07]
Frederick
There are a lot of people who don't. And I think more and more so, you know, people want to read, they don't want to do their homework. Homework. They. It's, you know, very. Can be very superficial. But that does make the people who really do their homework stand out, I think.
- [18:21]
Charlotte Moss
Well, I think that's the same in any business.
- [18:24]
Frederick
Yeah, for sure, for sure. If you are working with a young client who has no collections, what can you suggest they begin. Begin collecting?
- [18:33]
Charlotte Moss
Well, what I would like to do is just see their house and have a conversation, and then somewhere in there, you're going to pick up on something or mention something that they're going to respond to. So again, it all goes back to that conversation, Dara, about how to mine through it, everything that they've said and pull out some thread of something so that you could come back to them with pictures to see what excited them. Everybody's got something in their own home right now that they don't even know. Might even be the beginning of another collection. I have my share.
- [19:15]
Frederick
I think you could have been a psychologist or a anthropologist.
- [19:20]
Charlotte Moss
Oh, no, I'll stick to decorating, thanks.
- [19:23]
Frederick
What are some of the ways that you encourage a client to make the investment in fine furniture if they don't.
- [19:29]
Charlotte Moss
Understand it, you have to teach them. It's your job. You know, Nina Campbell and I had a great conversation one day about. It was showing a young couple some furniture, and she really Just sort of distilled it right there. They were looking at a very expensive modern table. And nothing is wrong with that. Just want to put that out there. But it was expensive and probably not in their budget. And she took them to some shops and showed them some antique furniture with great patina and at a fraction of the price. And so you have to expose people to things. You have to explain, and then in the end, they'll make their own decision. And, you know, and sometimes in that decision making, you hit it. You hit it right? And then sometimes you make a boo boo. And it's okay. We all make boo boos. You know, you keep the table for a couple years and then you upgrade. Give it to the kids, send it to the country or send it to the thrift shop, whatever it is. There are alternatives. I think you just have to do what you're comfortable with. But I think it's our job to educate. But to educate is a very. It's very different. Was that famous quote from Mildred Bliss, who lived at Dumbarton Oaks. I think it's actually etched somewhere there. To educate is not to instruct. And there's a fine line, and so you have to find the way to sell it.
- [21:04]
Frederick
Well, Charlotte, you are one of a kind. You're incredible. You're an inspiration. I really enjoyed this today. I feel incredibly grateful to have you here and sharing all your knowledge with us.
- [21:18]
Dara Caponigro
Thanks for joining us today. Stay tuned for next week's episode of Deep Dive.