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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Deep Dive, a podcast series in which Frederick's editor in chief, Dara Caponigro and fellow editors are joined by design industry leaders to share their unique insights, experiences, and knowledge on the world of decorating.
- [00:17]
B
Hi, I'm Tori Malott, the style director for Frederick magazine. I'm so excited to introduce today's Deep Dive guest, Ralph Pucci of Ralph Pucci International, which many of you know is one of the design industry's premier galleries for fine art, luxury furniture, and lighting. We're going to talk to Ralph today about how he got his start in the industry and the evolution of his company. So without further ado, welcome, Ralph, to the Deep Dive.
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C
Well, thank you for having me. Looking forward to our talk.
- [00:49]
B
Well, many of our listeners know your gallery as a place to see fine art and beautiful furniture, but you actually started in the mannequin business. Go back in time for us and tell us how Ralph Pucci International began.
- [01:06]
C
Well, it's a wonderful family story. It started in 1954. My parents started it as a mannequin repair company in the basement of their home in Mount Vernon, New York. My mother was a stylish lady and she was able to do makeup on the mannequins and able to do the wigs. My father was very outgoing and he was the salesman. So you had the salesman, you had the person who did the makeup and the wigs. And my grandfather did the repair. And they had a small little shop to do the actual sanding and the spraying in the Bronx. And it stayed like that until 1976 when I came into the company. And that's when we started to make our own mannequins. And we hit it off right away. So we, they actually had grown since 1954. They had a small shop on 20th street and they had all the positions, they had the sanders, they had the sprayers. We just needed a sculptor and ideas. That was my job. And we hired a sculptor. We had some ideas. We started to do mannequins that were sports minded. So we came up with mannequins that were jogging, that were doing handstands, that were riding bicycles. And instead of doing these very ladylike mannequins with wigs and makeup and painted fingernails, we just sprayed the mannequins high gloss red, high gloss black. And they became more sculptural elements. And it all was happening at the time of pretty much Calvin Klein breaking the mold of how males dressed. You know, it was much more casual and much more lifestyle, wasn't suit and ties. So These mannequins were perfect for that, and they became a giant hit. And then we just started to do things that were different.
- [02:56]
B
I read that in the 80s, you had an aha moment, which was to use an up and coming fashion designer and to give them total freedom to create whatever mannequin they wanted. Tell us about that moment, how you came up with the idea and how did that change your already changing business?
- [03:16]
C
Right. Well, that was done basically just for economic purposes at that time. All the other mannequin houses, they did gigantic, beautiful presentations twice a year. We actually just went out and worked with young fashion designers because it was not as expensive as going to Bergwaf, Grumman or Saks Fifth Avenue. And by working with young creative talent, it opened the whole door to creativity and to letting people express themselves. So that was a big, big part of our success as well.
- [03:46]
B
1989 was a pivotal year in your career, thanks to a collaboration with the French designer Andre Putman. Can you explain how that collaboration came to be and how it opened the door to begin the furniture arm of your business?
- [04:04]
C
Yeah, that's also a great story. So we were selected by Barney's. Barney's was downtown on 18th street at the time, and the women's store was opening up, and they chose Peter Marino and Andre Portman to design the store, and they chose Andre Portman to design the mannequin, and Barney then chose Pucci. So I met Andre. She didn't know nothing about a mannequin. She didn't know that much about retail. And she came to our sculpture studio and it was just a hit right away. Love at first sight. Andre and I just got really hit it off.
- [04:37]
B
How did it come about representing her furniture? It's not something that you had ever done before, is that right?
- [04:43]
C
No, no. We had never worked with furniture before, never even thought of it before. So how it happened was when we did the Andre Portman mannequin opening, I think it was 1985 or 86, and the opening was really well attended by young fashion designers, young photographers, illustrators. Story goes, she brought Andy Warhol, Basquiat and Keith Harrin to the opening. The next day, the New York Post wrote about it. Washington Post. Nina Hyde wrote a big story about the opening, and it was a real, real happening. Oh, maybe two or three months later, she had a show and we had dinner that night and she said, what did you think? I said, well, I didn't really care for the presentation. And the turnout wasn't so great because it was all suit and tie type of people. Whereas my opening was uptown, downtown, all types of people. It was a real New York City happening. And then she basically said at dinner, she goes, I really like your enthusiasm and your passion. Why don't we work together with my furniture? She was at Ecart International at the time, which was collection of furniture pieces that were designed by Jimmy Chalfranc and Eileen Gray Pierre Charot. And I said, I don't know anything about the furniture business. And I said, you have someone here. Why don't you just continue to work with her and them? And she was sort of like, you know, persistent that, you know, that she liked to make a change. And over time, you know, every time I saw her, she would say, you know, we really should work together besides making mannequins. So then I did the male mannequin. The first one she made for me was called the Olympian Goddess. The second mannequin she made for us was called the Husband. And by the time we did the Husband, which is probably a year later, you know, I had seen her numerous times. So she kept saying, is it time yet? Is it time yet? So then finally it was time, and then the rest is history.
- [06:35]
B
That is so exciting to go into a business that you really had no experience in. What prepared you for that? How did you sort of take that leap of faith?
- [06:48]
C
Well, you know, at first, we used the furniture as sculptural elements in the gallery. In the showroom, it would be a mannequin, two mannequins standing next to a sofa. It would be a seated mannequin next to a beautiful chair. Her furniture, the Eileen Gray Transat chair or the satellite mirror were all sculptural elements in the room. And so it made sense visually. And we had figured, hey, listen, let's just try it out. I didn't know any architects decorated. Zero. So I think the first opening was mostly people who were from the visual world. And it was perfect because the visual world was then just getting involved in a lifestyle living. And so you would go to a store, it could be Saks Fifth Avenue, and you would go husband and wife. You would sit down, the husband would sit. And back then, they didn't even have this seating arrangement. So you needed a seating arrangement. They had the Wall Street Journal, sports magazine or whatever. The husband would sit down, and they were creating these lifestyles for people to wait while the other person shop. And Dayton Hudson, which was one of my biggest mannequin accounts at the time, was one of always a leader in design. And they came in and he said, well, we are getting ready to do this rollout of this lifestyle and welcoming our clients, our audience, to be very comfortable, to sit down and to enjoy the experience of shopping, which was. Is all new at this time. And he said, okay, I'll buy 24 Jean Michel Franc sofas. I'll buy 48 Jean Michel Franck Club chairs. I'll buy 48 Eileen Gray rugs. I'll buy 48 of this and 24 of this. And I got off. You know, the client left. I called up Andre on a Saturday, and, you know, she. She was like, well, you know, in this industry, you got to get the money. I said, no, Andre, it's going to a store, and they're going to use it as their. It's a little different than selling it to Mr. Or Mrs. So and so or to a decorator. So that was just the beginning of all that happening. So it was perfect timing.
- [09:02]
B
So once you've started representing Andre's line and you had that incredible success, how quickly thereafter did you bring on other lines? And, you know, who were some of the first people that you decided to bring on board and represent?
- [09:20]
C
Right. It took a long time because, you know, the mannequin business was booming at that time. Booming. Macy's was opening 10 stores a year. Saks was opening eight stores a year. It was just. We were so busy with the mannequins that I was just content just to work with Andre. And what, you know, I like to say, it's like, you know, I was a pianist and I studied with Thelonious Monk. Here I am. I didn't know anything about the furniture business. And the first person I deal with is Andre Putman. You know, little by little, I started to meet people who had worked with Andrew. So then one point, I got a phone call that Andre was going to sell Icard International. And I said, wow, it's time to work with some other people just in case the new ownership doesn't care for the way I do things. It just so happened that the new ownership of ycard International liked the way we did things very well. So I continue with Icard International, but I started to work with people like Patrick Negar, Paul Matu from Andre's World, and then from the My World in New York, because I was working with Ruben Toledo. He's one of my mannequin designers and illustrators, and he did a lot of work for us. He was friends with Chris Lerika. So Chris Lerike came on board through Ruben, and then it just all snowballed, you know, and when we have these openings, all these people would come up and, you know, you just know who's right.
- [10:37]
B
So really, it was about connections and just word of mouth.
- [10:42]
C
Oh, yeah, 100%.
- [10:43]
B
You know, when you would make these connections and meet these artists and designers, what made them stand out to you, and what qualities did you see in their work that you knew would be the right fit for you?
- [10:57]
C
When I see someone, I know right away if they're right for Pucci, you know, like Patrick Negar, he's a super original thinker. This is a genius here. And I've known him for, like, 30 years, and the first time you talk to me, you just know, you know, you know, it's. It's the. It's the right art show that he just saw. It's the right movie or it's the right material or the right finish. You know, you just know when you connect and these little things is how I respond to people. And, you know, Paul Matthew is very poetic. You know, Chris Larrike is a. You know, he's a real craftsman. So it's like pieces to the puzzle went together pretty easily, and it's still going together.
- [11:39]
B
Tell me, where do you draw the line? Like, is there ever a moment where you're introduced to somebody and you're like, ugh, it's a little too mass, or it doesn't feel sculptural enough? You know, how do you decide that?
- [11:51]
C
Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. And that's absolutely the many times I see things that are too mass. Now I'm getting a lot of things, seeing things as, like, you know, everyone's trying to play too many notes. It's like, you know, what do you do with this? This is, like, crazy, you know, and I'm a forward thinker, but some of the stuff that now is being, you know, shown or promoted is just getting, like, almost goofy. So it has to be the right balance of, like, sculptural and practical and something that could be used. That's something that's elegant. It's something that's timeless. So, you know, we're not looking for just a trendy, you know, wow moment. I. I think really furniture needs to be really well made and timeless. And, you know, that's how we've always looked at things. That's how I learned from Andre, you know, that was always Andre's thing, you know, like, less is more. Just make a piece as beautiful as possible with the best materials, very sculptural. And so that's, that's very important.
- [12:47]
B
Poochie, would you consider yourself a businessman first or a creative first? And is there ever, is there ever an internal struggle or an internal conflict when the business head and the creative head sort of butt heads, if you will?
- [13:04]
C
I'm able to do both of it pretty well. And do I consider myself a businessman or an artist? I consider myself a businessman who has an eye and an ear. I'm always open. I want to know all the new things that are happening. I want to go to all the museums, I want to go to the galleries. That's what turns me on. And I think I was able to take that creativity and turn it into a business.
- [13:31]
A
We're going to take a quick break to thank the sponsor of today's Show, Schumacher. Since 1889, the fifth generation family business has been the go to source for textiles, wallpapers and trims. Their insatiable passion for luxury, beauty and quality have produced designs that transcend time and rise above the ordinary. So head to sh schumacher.com to check it out.
- [13:57]
B
As, as retail continues to move online, how has that affected the mannequin business? Because I don't know, maybe, maybe actually it's, it's remained the same. And how has the change, if any, made you pivot?
- [14:15]
C
Well, interestingly, it changed tremendously enough that I no longer make mannequins. You know, we stopped making mannequins about right around the pandemic time. We felt it was time just to totally focus on our own furniture. And like I said, it's so exciting to try to duplicate the success that we had in the mannequin world. Up until, like say five or six years ago, I was basically a gallery for people like every Van der Strate and Indy Madhavi and people like that Eric Schmidt. But now that we have our own sculpture studio and our own factory, it's opened the doors to even more opportunity. So we have two floors here at 44 West 18th street, our New York headquarters, and the penthouse. And then you go down to what we call the factory because it was our factory. You know, we had so many relation, so many threads that reached out to the Andy Warhol world because of Chris Makos. So we just called it the factory, just painted it white, left some of the industrial fans in, and it's a gallery downstairs. But in the gallery is also our sculpture studio behind a glass door. And you can see into it. So you can see the clients can come in and see our team sculpting. And then behind that glass door is the door to the factory. So if clients even then want to go a step further, they see how it's made. So they see, you know, what actually goes into what these pieces are.
- [15:39]
B
Do you foresee showrooms and galleries like yours? Do you ever see that role changing? I mean, I feel like it's so important to be able to see things in person, but how do you feel about that?
- [15:52]
C
No, I mean, I feel very strongly about it. Like, of the three showrooms, two of them we own, you know, we actually bought the properties. We believe very, very much so in presentation and having openings and having events, you know, whether it's. It's talks or a musical event or dance events, you know, to experience what the uniqueness of coochie. But absolutely, we were never a gallery that had 30, 40, or 50 people a day coming in. It was always like seven to 10. But now, you know, maybe it's even less. But, you know, I really believe in that, at our price point, that you have to have these beautiful openings and presentations. And then once they come in, once the client comes in, they see the level of sophistication that we offer, and then they can go to their website and see the website, and then their interior designer can then guide them.
- [16:43]
B
You once said that companies have to have a little gray hair, but they also have to have youth. Tell us what that means. And just as a final question, tell us the future of Ralph Pucci International and maybe some of your most important learning lessons in business and in design.
- [17:06]
C
I said that when I was young, so I had my parents around for the gray hair. So now I'm around, I have the gray hair or no hair. To be successful in business, you have to be practical. As I said earlier, you just can't spend money. You have to think things through. It's easy to spend money, but you have to have a goal. You have to figure out what that goal is and how to achieve it. So when I say the gray hair, that's a little bit of a business mind, and the young mind is the one who's fearless. And you do have to be fearless, because if you're not fearless, then you become a commodity. And if you become a commodity, then you're really in the wrong business, and then you're really not going to be successful. As far as where I see Pucci going, we're going to continue to look at Europe, particularly London, to get that set up. Probably not this year. Next year, that's pretty much it. I have my son in the business My daughter, my daughter in law. So it's great having a family. It takes a lot of responsibility. My son is very, very, you know, he's, he understands real estate. He understands that financially it's good to own your properties and also he deals. He also understands that you have to, have to keep creating new things to keep fresh and current. Because in this industry, if you don't keep fresh and current, you know you're going to miss, you're going to miss out. It's that simple. And you just have to keep being passionate. You just have to keep moving forward. You cannot stand still. There's no question. You cannot stand still. The second we end the show, we're already planning our next show. We're already planning who we're going to work with next. And you know, it's an incredibly exciting time being at Pucci now that we, you know, we have our own sculpture studio and that we're doing our own work with the designers. It's not like it's all coming from within house. I'm still working with all the same designers. It's just that now it's being produced by us. You know, we found that particularly during the pandemic, you know, with the exception of a few of our gigantic European resources, some of our clients didn't want to wait a long delivery date and they didn't want to take the chances of what was happening with freight at that particular time. And it became, you know, some of our great, great clients said, I'm telling you right now, if it's not in New York or if it's not being produced by you, we are not going to brought by it right now during this time frame. So that really opened the door to us. And that's also helped the plastic glass collection, our in house collections become so successful so quickly.
- [19:37]
B
Well, I loved hearing about the evolution of your business, the beginning of your business and where it is headed. I think my biggest takeaway is fresh, current and do not stand still.
- [19:50]
C
Absolutely. Try to go to every gallery, try to go to every museum and try to, you know, music. You know, we're very involved in music at Pucci. We feel music is a big, big, big thing at Pucci. You know, when you walk into this gallery, jazz is always playing and it sets the tone. And so we're always looking at new, new people to perform at Pucci.
- [20:10]
B
You have a Spotify playlist.
- [20:12]
C
We can, we do have a Spotify playlist. You should check it out. We, most of it is jazz because that's the true love at Pucci. But I'm also involved with an organization called the Jazz House Kids. We've done eight performances so far, fundraisers. And over the years, it's Christian McBride, who's the head of the organization, and his wife, Melissa Walker. And over the years, we've had Diana Crawl, Nora Jones, Gregory Porter last year. And it's an Incredible evening. It's 200 people attend. All the money goes to the Jazz House Kid. And this year we have Sting playing. And, you know, so that's something else that I think that separates us from some of the other people in this industry. Not many people could say that Sting has performed in the gallery.
- [20:59]
B
Definitely. I can definitely assure you that nobody else can say that Sting is performed in their showroom. And one last question. If anyone wanted to come to the showroom, did they need to make an appointment or can they just pop in?
- [21:13]
C
You can pop in. You know, it's to get. But we prefer probably making an appointment just to make sure that people are around and no one's busy. And if someone comes in, everyone's working with someone, but you can just pop in if you're in the neighborhood and you wanted to check it out. Yes.
- [21:27]
B
Well, Ralph, thank you so much, and thank you for joining this Deep Dive today. I appreciate it.
- [21:33]
C
Thank you. Tori. Enjoyed it very much.
- [21:37]
A
Thanks for joining us today. Stay tuned for next week's episode of Deep Dive.