B (3:42)

Well, that was so brave and I guess it was destiny. Where did you live when you. When you first moved, like, you know, for the month?

C (3:51)

So when I first came to la, and it's so funny because when you go somewhere for the first time, you don't understand context. So I was in Hollywood off Santa Monica Boulevard. And funnily enough, I actually drove past my. That apartment like a few weeks ago. I haven't driven, like around there for a long time and I had no idea where I was. I just thought that if I just drove west and east on Santa Monica Boulevard every day, I'll figure out where to go. So that's what I used to do. I used to take the craziest ways to get to the office every day. And they had an office in Silver Lake at the time. So I actually spent a lot of time on the east side. And they really took me under their wing. And Jamie and Ron, being from Los Angeles, knew the kind of the golden era, I guess. And they had really shown me around. Like the first night they took me to the Dresden, like an old supper club on the east side. And then we went to. We just. They just took me to this in these incredible things. I had modernism week the first week I was here in Palm Springs. So I really got this incredible experience into a city that I think a lot of people don't get to see because it's not as yet. So I was really fortunate to have that relationship. And we're still very close.

B (5:15)

That's nice. I'm going to come back to you in a second. But I know that they're very involved in saving LA architecture, so that tied into the same Thing, I guess, yeah.

C (5:26)

I mean, that's so great with everything they do.

B (5:29)

And then you must be very curious because I do that too. Like, I hate taking the same road twice. I'm adventurous in that way. So I assume you, you are too, I think.

C (5:40)

I didn't realize that I was so curious and an adventurer at the time. When I look back, I cannot believe that ignorance is bliss. I think had I known what I was doing, I would have never done it, probably. I was so optimistic and had no idea. Almost naive. And when you don't know anyone in a city, it's like there's nothing freer. Like, at the time, I just remember having the most incredible summer. Like, I met so many people. I learned why I moved to LA actually is because I couldn't believe how friendly and open and incredible everyone was. And every time I would go to an event, someone would invite me somewhere else. Like, everyone was so inclusive. And I think growing up in England, where it's not really the culture to just talk to everyone and anyone, I didn't realize there was a place that I felt like on the same vibration. So I, I really was drawn to that friendly, open, anything goes attitude. That is still like one of my favorite things about living here that I always come back to, that I take for granted. But it's, it's a really special place to me at this point because it's given me so much. And it's weird because 15 years later you just realize, oh my God, how many people you know and you connect with and you meet. And especially in this business, like, I find people to be so kind and there's such a great community that I, that I didn't really experience when I was in London. No, that side of things I'm sure exists. But yeah, it was, it's been, it's been a pretty incredible and hard journey.

B (7:31)

It sounds like you got lucky, but I'm sure you had a lot to do with it. You know, that doesn't just. You don't just. You have to take advantage of whatever luck you're given and work hard, which it sounds like you have. So you don't have a form, formal education. Right. And I'm also. I. One of the things I was impressed with is that you're, you know, you openly admit that not everybody would do that, I don't think. And now you're such a superstar. It sounds like you've got grit. So tell me a little bit about how you dug in to la, how you dug into your career.

C (8:04)

I think I was really lucky that I actually didn't have the burden of knowing things. Like, I feel like the key to my success has been that I've actually operated in the dark. And so the idea of not really knowing what I didn't know allowed me that freedom to connect with my creativity. And I think since a young age, I've always been somebody that is drawn to spaces, creating it, sense of safety, sense of just creating beauty. And so coming to LA with no formal background in design and actually having studied business and economics at university, the opposite still helpful. But I think it was really beneficial to me. And I. And for me, it's been a journey in owning my background, what my formal experience has been and has not been. And I've really learned over the years that there was a period of time that I had more of an imposter syndrome where I thought, oh, I need to or I should and go to school or I need to have that background. But the reality is, is I've just come to this place where I recognize what I love to do, which is to create, to have vision, to be an editor, to put that final touch on something. And that actually it's very much the model of a lot of creative fields, specific, a lot like in magazines, as you know, it's like, it's kind of, you have a team around you. And I like to bring in people that know more than I do in many areas that support the vision. And so having no formal training allowed me to get really curious. And when I worked for Jamie and Ron, and then I worked later for SD Stanley, and I had experiences with people who had an incredible eye and I understood how to hone in on what I was attracted to. And recognizing that actually there's such a broad, I guess, inspiration of what I love. And so you get to learn that. And quite honestly, this is a business and a huge part of growing a business has nothing to do with design. So it is like you said, it's grit, it's hard work, it's having zero boundaries. When you start, it's yes to everything. I'll be there. Sure. I don't care if it's a Sunday at 8 in the morning. It's like people say, oh, how do you do that? It's. You say yes to everyone and you don't have boundaries and you do run yourself ragged. But 15 years later, I'm still now unwinding that hustle because that's all I've known. And so to really take a beat and say, you know what There's a time and a place to learn everything you need to know, but that never ends. So to let. To have formal education is one thing, but I think using it is another. I always say it's like someone who has the best singing voice in the world may never see the stage. It doesn't necessarily mean that someone like JLO is less successful because she doesn't have as good of a singing voice. Like, I know what my strengths are, and I try to not look around what other people are doing in their backgrounds, because the truth is, I didn't have anything handed to me, so I almost have pride in that. And I feel like I did it without those things. So I see it as a positive thing.

B (11:42)

It is. Well, some of the best designers in the world didn't go to design school. You know, I mean, Albert Hadley did not go to design school. So, I mean, obviously you need talent, but you need to work hard. You need curiosity, you need the willingness to want to learn. So you. I mean, I think you've developed a signature style. When I look at your work, you know, you definitely have a penchant for warm neutrals, beautiful siennas, cordovans, umber honey, and lots of sculptural forms in your work. So is that innate? Did you, like. Where did that come from?

C (12:17)

I think what's fun for me now is, like, I feel the evolution in my. In my taste and. And choices. And I think I like to call it, like, the first chapter, like, a huge. The first chapter of my career was a lot of warm neutrals and having that signature style, which, as a philosophy, I still, like, stand behind. But I think I've evolved more into introducing a little more dynamic, from color palettes to vintage to certain materiality and historical references. As I've become curious and traveled more and been exposed to more Axel before, and some of the other Belgian European designers were definitely an inspiration for me. And I think over the years, seeing that iterated in so many times, I think as a designer, you're always looking to reinvent or be interested in something new. And I think now I lean actually towards a more maximalist color, interesting textile combination. And again, I'm so lucky I get to treat all my projects differently. I mean, I have an old Tudor house, I have a New York townhouse, so you get to play. Yeah, these styles, I guess. But ultimately, I've realized that instead of it being a style, it's really a mindset of how my process has evolved from. Instead of choosing everything at once, really understanding that good Design is layered and takes time and is almost like it's a painting. And the painting is the very last thing that may take so long to figure out that final thing that brings it all together. And kind of having the confidence to explain to clients that. That process, if you want to have something that feels not only thoughtful and refined, but layered and has a timelessness to it, it does require the process to change slightly. So that. That's been a huge change for me.

B (14:28)

Well, it's patience to some degree, right? I mean, you have. And perseverance and. And knowing that it can't all be done at once, right? Is that what you're saying?

C (14:39)

It's conviction. I've learned over the years there's nothing better than confidence when it comes to clients. I mean, I started when I was in my 20s, so I was like the young person telling people what to do. And it just. The dynamic was not there and my confidence hadn't grown to the position of being able to say to someone, look, the process is we establish high level, the narrative on North Star, where we're going, and then from there, I'm going to show you concepts, specific pieces. But understand I may not have the perfect stone today. The sofa we know, but we might not know the coffee table, because you can't find everything in one fell swoop.

B (15:24)

So it's like the opposite of instant gratification. It's almost like the weight is part of the beauty of it, in a way.

C (15:31)

Yeah. I think there was a period of my career where I kind of tried to corporatize things, if that's a word, where try to make things more formulaic and more structured because it seemed like the proper thing to do. But the reality. Clients come to me because they want that personal touch and this continuous relationship where it feels a little more personable, like it's not me just churning and burning some type of process that they don't feel connected to. And so I've really started to work with people who enjoy the design process and like, it's fun for them to. To have space to get to continue things. And they're not looking for a plug and play experience. But when it's all said and done, it is turnkey, because everyone wants to move on at some point. But yeah, it's a fine balance.

B (16:26)

Honestly, it sounds beautiful. It's sort of a segue to my next question. It seems like you have a spirituality to how you approach design. You talk about mystery, evolution, flow of expression. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

C (16:43)

So spirituality is my, like, foundation of everything. It's the most important aspect. And so design for me is a vessel for the. For me, which is a much bigger, broader, grounded portion of, like, how I kind of operate. And it's really my North Star to create spaces that don't just look good, but they might feel more dynamic than they might seem on a picture. And I think a lot of the times, capturing a space when you've completed it, even if something is all neutral and maybe it doesn't feel as maximalist or shocking to the eye, I'm less about the shock and more about feeling comfortable and that people can actually use these spaces to have incredible expressions of themselves, beautiful gatherings. And again, my home, for me is my spiritual sanctuary. It's where I come back, bring all my tentacles in and reset. And so I like to give that to clients. And I find that working with people who understand that that's the purpose of design for me, at least. And it's less about the spectacle and the using design, I guess, as cachet is a different type of person. And I've been really lucky that I've worked with a lot of people in entertainment entrepreneurs. And they all have one thing in common. The ones that I've had great experiences with is that they have a sense of self. They understand that their house is a reflection of them, but they also trust that they're hiring someone not to assess something or not to be necessarily micromanaged. But that collaboration, where I'm putting on their glasses, so to speak, of, like, who these people are, what they want, how they want to live, and I get to bring my heart and soul.

B (18:51)

So how did you first gain recognition in the world of interior design?

C (18:56)

So, long story short, I was working with an architect, and the architect was working with Julianne Half. And she had asked me if she knew anyone who could help her with the furniture and the interiors. And I said, I'll do it. Bearing in mind I had. Did not have one vendor, one relationship, no experience with any technical skills, nothing. And so, long story short, we did the project. There was many hiccups. I learned so much. She was so happy with the project. And we were shooting it for the COVID of Better Homes and Gardens. It was, like, insane. When the magazine came out, I just was getting calls directly from these celebrities. I think I was really right place, right time, because now I think you just see so much content every day, all day. And I feel like what I was doing at the time was different to what you would see because it was More paired back. It had a more European English undertone to it that I brought from just obviously growing up in England. And I think it just was the right place. And it was. And it was seen by the right people.

B (20:11)

Yeah. What's interesting about Better Homes and Gardens is it. I think of it as a mass magazine. I mean it is. And yet I think it has so much power. But it's interesting that celebrities are reading it. And I've been in Better Homes and Gardens a couple of times and I've never received such a response to any kind of press as I have for those stories.

C (20:34)

In terms of being more mass, I think that was really the key has been the key for me, not intentionally is bridging the gap between high design and mass appeal. And it's a really fine line. Like standing on that fence is so difficult because you don't want to alienate either sides of that party. So I. I always see it's like an X where they both meet perfectly.

B (21:02)

So when it comes to your work, when you're starting out on a project, do you always have a. Do you always start in the same place?

C (21:09)

Yes and no. I think I've allowed my process to be so much more fluid now. I used to get a lot of anxiety when starting projects because of timelines. All the stress that a lot of external parties don't understand the design process. And so I didn't give myself that freedom to play and have fun. And now I spend a lot of time just compiling thousands of images. Books online, old school blogs, archival magazines like travel, you name it, and then taking all of that. And then I do an edit and kind of create some loose narrative. And that narrative might be the feeling or it might be the palette of materiality. And then I really work on the programming and I've got a lot more focused on this due diligence part with a client of really understanding when you're creating a custom home on all the bells and whistles of every little thing that you can think through. Especially when you're doing a ground up home or a full gut renovation. I like Segway the visuals and then segue into like the programming and making sure that the spaces feel incredible and so that I can rely on the architect architecture to support all of the furnishings and artwork and draperies and rugs because I think finishes and materiality and flow. It doesn't matter how gorgeous the furniture is at the end of the day, if the palette and the materials and the space doesn't feel inviting and have that Refinement. I think it's really difficult to furnish a space in the way that I like to furnish. And then I think it's a collaboration. A lot of the times I'm working with some really talented architects and we get to have this incredible rapport where it's like a shorthand where we get to play and we have. I've been working a lot more in model form than I used to and that's given me actually a new sense of adventure in the design process because you really get to feel some space and using new technology. Like I'm not afraid of and scared of. I love to see like with AI and all the things that everyone's terrified of, I actually love to see how is it such a tool to make my process even better and allow me to focus. So to answer that question, I think it's, it's a mixed bag. It's. It's definitely loose imagery, the programming. And then also it's a natural alchemy. Like you think you've got something and then it kind of fully. You tear it back down and 99% of the time you end up at your original idea.

B (24:09)

And do you have a method for getting into your clients heads?

C (24:14)

So I like the discovery phase before we even go into contract with someone. And in that meeting I'm asking, what is your favorite hotel? And I don't actually even need to know why, just because everyone has a favorite hotel. I even say to my dad, who claims he doesn't care about design, like I ask him, what's your favorite hotel? And then he realizes, oh, because it's designed a certain way and, or here's the service or how it's laid out. And I think understanding people's, even music tastes, their clothing, the places they shop, it's almost putting someone in a brand box of like, where are you getting your groceries? Where are you shopping? How do you get dressed in the morning? Understanding someone is the first call to action. And then I would say at that meeting I probably show maybe two to three very, very schematic, like boards of maybe like 10 images of just like direction. And I just say immediately, without getting into it, which one of these three are you drawn to the most? Don't tell me why, I don't need to know why. And that it's like playing Clue. I then can see, okay, they're attracted to a warmer palette, or they don't like busy marbles, or they're not somebody who's into a more maximalist furnishings layout. And Then all of a sudden from that phase A, I know for a good fit, which is the first and foremost because it is dating at the end of the day, if you go on a. And you have red flags, you shouldn't go on a second date. And it's the same thing with design is that it's, it's not personal, it's just a, it's just a jive. Like do you guys see the world at least similarly. And can you be on the same page? Because if you're constantly fighting and pushing, these are three two year, three year, four year relationship. So. Right. It the. That's why I say the personal component is so under discussed, at least publicly. Obviously us designers all talk about that, but it's a huge part of the process that I think people don't take seriously enough.

B (26:33)

Yeah. Pay attention to your inner voice. Then.

C (26:36)

Leanne Ford, who's a friend of mine, said to me once, and I'm sure it's a known basic saying, but if it's not a hell yes, it's a hell no. If every fiber in your being is not excited about doing something, especially in these long term relationships, and you don't do it. Because I guarantee every time I've gone against that feeling, I've always not been thrilled with the process.

B (27:02)

But that can be so scary when you're first starting out. Right. And you don't have a lot of work and you have to make concessions. I guess I'm sure you did at the beginning. Right.

C (27:11)

Let me tell you, that's what I'm still recovering from. Because it is. You are not. There's a power play. And when I started, I had experiences with some people and look, I'm sure I made mistakes. I was young, whatever it is what it is. But when you're working with some people and it's very contentious, not very contentious, but it's just like these little passive aggressive relationships on emails. Like I dealt with that for a very short, well, a longer period of time when I started. Because unfortunately, part of the game, because it is all a game. Every business you're in, you have to play the game, which is if you want to be a designer and you want your work to be seen, you need to create work to be seen. Meaning if this project, maybe this client or this contractor or this architect or this whole thing seems unmanageable or unenjoyable, but if I can get photos at the end of this project, incredible. The problem is that a lot of people starting will have those relationships and don't even get photos. And so to that I say there's actually zero point. You don't want to have a toxic work relationship and then not have photos for your portfolio. So fine line, like, it's gotta. It's why I say it's the game, that it has to work for everyone. And part of that game is, I'm gonna do the job for you at a fraction of the price of someone else. That's just the reality. So when you're starting, I think people go wrong when they have almost too many boundaries and unrealistic pricing structures, especially if they've either worked at large, like they've worked as an employee at a larger firm and they go out on their own. There's like a misalignment of a big reason why people work with people starting out is because you're going to get it cheaper. Great, I'm going to do it cheaper. Then you're going to let me photograph this house and everyone's happy. And that's just it. That's got to be clear in the beginning. And I don't think it's crass to have that conversation. I. I think it's what people. That's how the world works. Like, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it. Or someone's saying, oh, I'll. I'll post this room if you help me. If you help me do it. Great. Amazing. This person has a million followers. You starting out in your business, like, is it fair? Is it great? No, but it's. It's like, don't the game like it is what it is. So just.

B (29:47)

But that's excellent advice for someone just starting out. I mean, it's might be hard information to swallow, but I think it's important. All right, I'm going to switch gears for a second. Tell us about the Expert, how it got started, and what your role in the Expert is.

C (30:03)

So my genius best friend Leo Siegel and I used to live together pre Covid, and during the lockdown, I'd moved back in with him. And at the time he was managing my Instagram, like, which is insane that I had one of my friends do that. But he really helped me with my Instagram and he did an amazing job throughout the years. And he would go through my messages and he said, I cannot believe how many messages you get from people asking you for free advice. What paint, color? What's that rug? What's that fabric? Where do I get the sofa from? And he said, if you're getting all these Messages. Every other designer is getting all these messages. And two people during COVID had said, one that was in Brentwood in California, and the other was in Sweden. Do you offer E design services? And like, any designer when you hear E design is like, what is that? That sounds awful. Like, we're not doing that. And so immediately I was like, that's terrible. I'm not doing that. Like, I can't get on a video with a stranger and have a productive conversation. I don't even know this person. And Leo said to me, he said, honestly, just say, we'll do it. We'll charge you a couple hundred dollars on Venmo or get on Zoom and just see. He was like, just see how it is. I was so nervous. I remember speaking to this person Sweden. And at the end of it, I turned around to him and I said, oh, my God, I cannot believe how much we just accomplished through speaking and showing someone something online and giving them reference points and a blueprint to their project. And she was so happy. And then we did the one in Brentwood and same thing. It was like 55 minute call all of a sudden. We've worked through half of the house. I've given you wallpaper recommendations, my favorite white paint, my drapery this, that. And we were like, oh, my God. Oh, my God, this is a business. And Leo was the one who really, like, propelled that and would reach out, pretending it was to be me. Which now I can say, because it's been so long to all these designers and was like, would you ever be interested in this? We were just doing just to see. So it really was born out of, like, a natural desire to help people on a bigger scale. And also, like, no desire. It's like a doctor when you go to dinner and people are like, what's wrong with my throw? You're like, I don't want to. Like, I don't want to talk about that at dinner party. So the expert, I like to say, is like, my biggest seat, my biggest hack. Because anyone, anytime anyone asks me anything, I'm like, oh, I actually offer sessions. Let's do it. And you just avoid all that. A lot of designers seem to me saves them. So in that respect. And so we built it out of that need that was very natural and organic. And honestly, had we not had Covid, I don't know if the comfort of being on Zoom and that being normalized, I mean, even us today, being on Zoom, that's so normalized that we didn't have that hurdle. And there was this Whole conversation at the time. Well, after Covid, is this something that people are still going to want to do? And I think it's just been such a positive thing in many ways that the Expert has, has really been able to reach so many people. And I think designers have become what fashion designers used to be. So that's why the Expert was born out of bringing these designers who have audiences who would dream of working with some of these people who don't have the budget or geographically. It's challenging. They can now ask. It's like asking. Just to be clear, I'm not putting me and Tom Ford in the same question. I'm just saying it's like being in fashion and calling Tom Ford and asking him advice. And so I think that that's how we shifted the narrative. And designers became these superstars during COVID because everyone was at home and everyone became obsessed with design. And you, you go to most people now, like even massive audiences, they're going to know a designer. They just will whatever level or right reach, they're going to know someone. And that was not the case 10 years ago. Like absolutely. So that was really how it started. And my role at the beginning, I mean Leo has zero experience in this industry. So which is what makes him such a genius because he, he again not ignorance is bliss. He wasn't burdened by how layered and the politics and people's opinions, like he didn't have to worry about that. And so blindly. And I really supported the early phases of the company in terms of the designers, like how it was going to work and just like being the face of it and the advocate for something that I think a lot of designers were very resistant to. We had so many people say no at the beginning and within a few months like people were like begging to be on the platform and it's just what happens. It's like trying to get the right people in the room where using all my relationships was risky obviously, because if it didn't work out and people didn't enjoy the platform, it wouldn't be something that felt enjoyable for them to do. So that that was a big purpose at the beginning and throughout the years, obviously, I mean Leo's got an incredible team behind the scenes who fully operate everything and then moving into E commerce and working with all these different brands that again were not available to the average person and also bringing and breaking these barriers of trade only businesses and being that platform for people to have full customer service to now us the expert, having our own kind of collection of Core beautiful pieces that are made to order. And we had a lot of pushback. Like I would have designers say to me at the beginning, like, why, why would you make trade only available to people? I don't understand why don't you think that's like competition with other designers and I. And the truth is there is enough for everyone. There are so many people with so many different tastes and so many different budgets and so there's such an abundance. And also this is where the world is. Everything is online. You need to go with the flow or you resist. And I think a lot of designers at the, at the beginning resisted it and were like, it almost felt like we were giving away trade secrets and all of a sudden lifting the veil. But the whole goal with the expert has always been to democratize good design. Why is designs only available to a select few private residential people who have high budgets? And that is beautiful and exists and it's what is the purple label, so to speak of the aspiration. But the goal is that great. I love the work that these designers do, but I just have one room that I want to do and I don't want to have to hire someone full service. And no designer takes on one room for the most part because it doesn't make sense. So that's kind of how that business evolved. And now we're growing the E Commerce platform and really have been building these incredible relationships with a lot of these brands. And it's fun because even though people can go directly to the brands because we have this full customer service approach, especially for trade. If you're a trade member, you could shop from 10 different sources on the expert and the expert will handle that entire order from start to finish. So we're really here to help designers. And I think me being the co founder at the beginning was to understand what those little nuanced pieces were. Because other tech companies have tried E Commerce but that only tech, they don't have the background in high end design. And like a. Designers want to be around their peers and people that they respect. They stand behind product that they genuinely use and genuinely love. Like, I'm not hawking anything, I wouldn't use myself.

B (38:43)

Right, right.

C (38:44)

And so it's just, it's, it's a, it's an authenticity component where we didn't, we didn't want it to be diluted so much that you lose the essence.

B (38:55)

Well, I have to hand you because I know several other people who've had the idea and you pulled it off so beautifully. And I think as you said, one of the things that makes it work is that you didn't dumb it down. You know, you have great experts on there, great roster of designers, and the pieces that you offer are pretty exceptional. So congratulations. So you have product lines with Lulu and Georgia, Parachute, and now Crate and Barrel. Tell us a little bit about them and how you got your first licensing deal.

C (39:25)

So licensing deals are my favorite thing to do. I am so grateful. They're one of the. The funnest things I've done in my career. The first one, I think I signed with Lou and Georgia was my first ever collaboration. And that was very. On the early days where I was like, I don't even know what I've signed, how much I'm getting paid, what I'm doing. Like, I don't care. Like, thank you so much for asking me. And I just jumped into it, and it was an amazing experience and really allowed me to use my creativity in a different way. And I think product design is so fun because it touches people in a much bigger audience. And I just have this obsession with, like, when people see good design and then they see the pricing and they're like, oh, my God, this is X. Whatever dollars. It is like that, to me, is the joy of it. Anyone can create something that's exceptionally beautiful and expensive. That's. I mean, it's still difficult, but it's much harder to create something that's quality. And I think being discerning with these collaborators is, at the end of the day, if you're putting your name on something, the quality has to be there. And I was really fortunate that all of the companies that I worked with not only really value the same things I value, they also have given me a huge amount of knowledge and understanding on how to put teams together. It's changed the way that I work, where it's like, okay, I maintain the vision, the creativity, the editing process, and then the final bow at the end. And I try to bring that into my studio of where I. It allowed me to learn what I enjoyed doing the most, and that all of the logistics, the operations that come along with projects, not so much. And so Crane Barrel. I remember that Sebastian, the creative vp, he messaged me on Instagram, and I had no idea, like, who he was at the time. And he was like, I'd love to get on the phone with you. And it said in his bio, working in Crate and Barrow, I was like, there's no way this is real. So we get on the phone and he says to me, he I think he. He basically just was asking me questions, and at the end, and I said, how do we make this happen? And he said, what do you mean? It's already happened? Like, we're doing it. And I was, I remember I was on the floor, I was like, this is insane. I don't know how someone who has literally studied business and economics knows nobody from the middle of nowhere in England has now getting a call from Crate and Barrow to do a line. I was like, this is insane. Like, it was one of the best moments of my career because it really didn't feel like. And like Crate and Barrow is such a quintessential American brand and history. So that that moment was amazing. And that whole experience, I honestly have never enjoyed something more. And the people that work at Lewin, Georgia, Crate and Barrel, Parachute, just the most amazing people, so kind allow me to have my creativity. Don't kind of tear it apart. And, like, they really do execute the vision they wanted.

B (42:57)

You, which is. Yeah, yeah.

C (43:00)

And it was really. I l I honestly from the beginning of, like, the concept to the prototyping, to understanding, like, the marketing value to the shoots, to, like, seeing in the store, to seeing people post about it, it's like there's nothing more rewarding, honestly, like, because when you finish a house, you want to open up to the public and have people walk around. And obviously we can't do that. And so to share, it's like that sharing that I really enjoy. So the collaboration are. I'm so grateful for them. And they're just such a different part of the brain. And it's. It's been an interesting navigation of, like. Like I said before, they're two different audiences. It's like high design and then, like a much bigger sector of the country. And I've, like, when I've done, we, we've done whether it's like book tours at Creighton Barrel and just met unbelievable people who have come up to me and said, you know what? I heard that you didn't study. And I've decided to leave my career and I've gone into interior design. And like, you inspired me to do that. And really, that to me is my. The most fulfilling part of everything I do is is is to remember that I started from zero and that really, if you put your mind to something, you have a passion and you honor your integrity. That, like, who's to say, like, nowadays, like, it. It's. It's the, it's the premise of, like, the best part of this country. Like, if you break it down to that. That's why, like, everyone always says to me, I can't believe we won't talk politics. Obviously, I can't believe, like, you wanted to be a citizen. And I just say, like, everyone has different experiences, and I'm privileged in other ways, obviously, and I acknowledge that. But I think at the end of the day, my job now is to provide a platform or an opportunity to other people who are starting out and being. That's like, how I operate in my studio. Like, I like to see people grow and see how they evolve, and because that someone gave me those chances as well. And so I think anyone in any career that you're starting off, it's. It's not easy. Like, the first seven, eight, nine years of starting, I can't even tell you the amount of times I wanted to quit. Now, 15 years later, I actually have to take physical notes of all the things I've done to recognize, like, those collaborations means so much more to me than just selling something.

B (45:54)

And now you're a household name. It's kind of amazing. I've really enjoyed meeting you. I hope I get to see you in person one of these days.

C (46:02)

Me too. And by the way, I'm such a fan of everything you guys do.

B (46:07)

Well, now we need a project. We need a Jake Arnold project in Frederick magazine.

C (46:13)

I have projects to give you.

B (46:15)

Okay, good.

A (46:17)

Thanks for joining us today. Stay tuned for next week's episode of Deep Dive.