B (5:19)

Yeah, well, first, I guess it's super interesting to bring back to that, like, Jenny o' Dell kind of movement, because I do think people get stuck in thinking about planning as having to be married to productivity, meaning if I want to plan, it means then I'm trying to cram in as many, quote, productive things as possible and capitalism, you know, the wheels spinning, et cetera. But that to me is such a unfair way to characterize planning because to me, planning is so much more about thinking ahead of time about what you want to do in your life and then making sure that you have things lined up so that you can do those things. And for me, if I were to want to go bird watching in a San Francisco park, let me tell you what I'd have to do. I would have to do a lot of planning to make sure that that could be accommodated in my life without, you know, having a kid, not get picked up from an activity or not pay the bills or whatever it is. So I guess that kind of goes along with what you're saying as well, which is that those two things don't have to be mutually exclusive. The free time, the intentional leisure, and the planning. And in fact, I think if, if anything, for many people, depending on their stage of life, the planning piece is actually required in order to, to make the best use or, I don't know, the use that fits, aligns most with what they really want to do with their time. And so that is what has driven my passion about planning. It's not about turning out more widgets, earning more money necessarily, but it's about fitting in the things that you want to do in this one life that we all have. I'm also a huge fan of sort of the mortality focused literature, the sort of Oliver Berkman, Jody Wellman type stuff. And that, just for me, lights a fire around planning, which to me also has sort of two prongs to it in a way. One is about making sure we're not just going on autopilot and making sure that we are fitting in the things that we want to do. And the other side is making sure we're not getting overwhelmed by little tasks coming at us, trying to kind of take a bite into our lives. And by making sure you're managing all those tasks and making sure you're purposefully adding in the things you want, then hopefully you get to do more Things you want to do, like, I don't know, bird watch in a San Francisco park.

A (7:33)

Well, let me give you an analysis. I'm going to not psychoanalyze, but I'm going to analyze you and then you're going to tell me if I have this right, because I have this theory about partially why you personally are in a very good situation to be leading people through these topics. And I think I don't really understand your profession. You're a pediatric endocrinologist, right? Clinical doctor. But I think it's important that you're a clinical physician because my understanding, and in some sense that's a very demanding job, but it's also very structured, right? You have this sort of cadence of appointments that's probably pretty standardized in your practice. Whereas a lot of people, and maybe in the Ginny Odell camp and people in my world, you're often in a more vague knowledge work environment where there is this sort of. Which this is where I get the Odell critique. There is this sort of sense of like an endless knob of productivity that you can turn that seems tied to busyness and how many hours you're willing to work outside of work. And there's a rightful negative association that people in an email based office job start to build where they're like, all right, enough of this productivity talk because my boss just wants me to do emails till midnight and enough is enough. Did it matter that your job had enough structure that you could stand aside a little bit from some of the maladaptive stuff that was happening in certain knowledge work jobs? I think smoke screening the importance of organization and planning because it was sort of like an orthogonal issue that also needed to be solved. Am I getting medicine right there or am I just romantic? Am I romanticizing?

B (9:09)

I've personally experienced both sides because I've had more leadership type roles where the emails are rolling in and the meetings and everything is a little bit more a world without email, but the opposite of that. But then yes, the rest of my job has been very, very structured. And you are right, a lot of my passion was born out of a time period when almost all of, not all, but like a very large fraction of my hours were very much accounted for by others. Like it was during my residency training where we had caps at 80 hours per week that we could be at the hospital. But other than that, you know, our time was not really our own. And it made sense to be incredibly attentional with the hours that were left. And I guess that is where a lot of my Passion around planning was born. But you're right that my current life is much more around. That much of my time is fairly structured. And that is one of the things I love about my clinical job, is that I can go in, see my patients, write my notes, and kind of feel like I did everything for the day.

A (10:07)

Is it true you had your first kids when you were still this overlapped residency?

B (10:12)

My first kid was during fellowships. That's the subspecialty training after residency.

A (10:17)

Can I ask you a brief, unrelated question that is related to the Pit on hbo?

B (10:23)

I love the Pit. You can ask me anything about the Pit. My husband and I, because he's a vascular surgeon, we, like, sit there and analyze every episode for correctness and maybe misinformation.

A (10:33)

Vascular surgeons think that they should be bringing. They're doing too many things in the ED that they should be bringing consults in. That's what I heard is like, no, you can't. Don't mess with that nerve in the hand. You've got to bring down. Okay, but here's a question on behalf of my whole audience. More important than anything else we're going to talk about. Can you please distinguish between third year medical student, intern, like, pre residency first? I cannot. My sister is attending, you know, ER doctor, and I still don't understand. Can you ask what is the order of things that happened? And then we'll get back to Platty. But I gotta understand this. I don't understand which character is what, when.

B (11:08)

Well, I'm trying to remember, like, who's a third year and who's a fourth year? Like Javadi. Is she. Is she a fourth year? Maybe. So in med school, you usually do your core rotations. So that's the very first. First year in the clinic, your third year of med school. And then the fourth year is more like subspecialty rotations. I don't feel like the Pit does a great job of saying who's a third year and who's a fourth year?

A (11:26)

Is that intern yet or not fourth year? Is fourth year the same as intern or is that post fourth year?

B (11:32)

So medical school has four years.

A (11:34)

I didn't know that.

B (11:34)

Then begins your intern year, which is also known as the first residency year and most residencies. Well, the ER residency is actually four years long, so sometimes it's totally unclear. But we know Santos is R2 because I keep saying it over and over again.

A (11:49)

Yes. And the really young doctor in the first season, I think, was third year or fourth year. Maybe like a fourth year. Okay. And then when do you get called doctor?

B (11:58)

You get called doctor when you begin your residency. So after med school, before that, I used to use like an archaic student doctor. Yeah, heart hunger or whatever.

A (12:06)

But yeah, interesting. All right, well, now we got the important stuff covered, we can get back to the easy stuff, like trying to manage life in this chaotic world. All right, so let's go back then. You've been thinking about planning an organization for a long time. You've had your podcast, your blog and your book. I think I have that order not quite right, probably. Blog, podcast, book.

B (12:28)

That is correct.

A (12:29)

How today do you think about the elements that have to go into a successful planning system?

B (12:34)

Yes. So in my opinion, and I know it might differ a little bit from how you talk about it, but I feel like there are things, three big ones. The first one is a calendar that's completely functional and shows everything. And in my book I refer to that as like one master calendar. And that can be. It sounds so straightforward. Like, of course I have a calendar, but a lot of people are actually consulting multiple places, even on a day to day level to actually figure out where they're supposed to be. So master calendar is number one. Number two is a really robust task management system. I've coined the term airtight task management because I want to communicate that like, you know exactly what's coming in, where to look for it, how often to look for it, and where to put it so that you know, you will see it. And to me, that's the part where you're sort of preventing the moth eating like things coming at you from really getting too much of your time and attention and you know, putting the tasks in their place where they belong. And then finally you need a fantastic and robust goal setting system. You talk about yours in like a multi level scale planning. And I have a very similar version of that called nested goals. It has a couple more levels than yours has because I, I love a month, I love the monthly level, which you don't really talk about. But similarly, you know, you're planning every year and then every season you're looking at that yearly plan, every month you're looking at that seasonal plan, every week you're looking at your monthly plan, and every day you're looking at your weekly plan. And that sounds so much more involved as it is than it actually kind of is in practice. But by doing that and having like a really clear cut, purposeful ritual at each of those time points, you know that you're going to be integrating kind of the urgent and what you need to do on a given day or week with the kind of higher level goals that you've set in more thoughtful planning sessions.

A (14:19)

Right. So this is fascinating, and I think this is a key distinction. I struggle to communicate this sometimes as well, is that there's these different elements that all go under the umbrella of planning. You have the whole sort of information, organizational aspect of it, and then you have the sort of time control aspect of it, which you're calling like, goal setting system. And I think often people will zoom in on just one piece. Could be the, like. I have a planner called a time block planner, but it's not a planning system. It's like one piece, like in your terminology, it's like one of multiple pieces that goes into a goal setting system that itself could be part of a larger planning universe. But there's people who say, I bought my time block planner, so can I organize my whole life with this thing? And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. That's like you just, you bought an exercise band. That's probably a good thing to use as part of a large health and fitness routine. But just having that exercise ban is not the whole thing. Okay, so I want to go through. Let's go through these in this order because I think it actually, I think calendar to task, airtight task management. A goal setting system is easiest to hardest or simplest, most complex. I feel like things get more and more complex as we move down. All right, so master calendar, when you say shares everything. So you're talking about professional, personal, family. We need everything in one place. Are you a digital person? Are you a Google calendar where you could have like multiple different calendars? You turn off and on, you're gonna be like shocked.

B (15:42)

And everyone is always shocked. But I'm largely paper based. I have three kids. I also have like five. Not five jobs, but maybe, maybe three jobs if you count like the podcast as one and then all my other media stuff and then my physician job, which is three days a week. I do work part time as of now on my clinical side. But for me, I'm able to actually have my master. I have it right next to me. My master be paper. Meaning, okay, is every detail of every little thing in here? No, meaning there are blocks in here. This is not going to show up, but where it just says patients. And I can't like see exactly what the patients are that I'm going to see. Because first of all, that would not be HIPAA compliant. And second of all, that would be, you know, way too Much to put on paper anyway. But I know that when I go to work I'm going to log into our electronic health system and see exactly which patients I have to see. But still this is enough for me to know this is where I have to be on any given day. And on my kids level I have a whole section on the bottom that talk about where the drop offs and pickups are.

A (16:43)

Wait, what do you mean by section on the bottom? This is outside of the flow of time. It's like at the bottom you have kind of like a to do list for listing out drop off pickoff times.

B (16:52)

That's a choice that I've made. But I do use a vertical planner so I can see pretty much everything kind of like scaled to time just like you would pull up in Outlook or Google Calendar. But because I don't always do all the driving, you know, I'm like, I have, we have a nanny, I have my husband, I drive, I have three kids, they're going in different directions. I kind of like to still know where all the kids are. So I kind of put a row beneath there where I put all the comings and goings of gymnastics and basketball and dance and all that.

A (17:17)

So it'll be like drop off at 3:30 pick up. So just like listing it. Okay, yeah. Oh that's interesting. We've taken to. So we're Google Calendar people, my wife and I, because then I have my work calendar so she can see and I can see what she's doing. But we put the kids like family stuff. We put those as those are like appointments on there as well. And we'll try to span the time the driving actually takes. So like that half hour will be now a reality of this calendar is there's a ton of overlap stuff happening because now everything is on the same screen. So you know, in Google Calendar things that intersect time wise overlaps, there's a lot of.

B (17:54)

At least you can, you can hide right? Like so you can decide to only look at your part.

A (17:58)

You can unclick it off. Yeah, yeah, no.

B (17:59)

And I'm not against digital whatsoever. But you did ask what I use. Personally I think both are fantastic. I just sometimes people write off paper kind of thinking like well if your life is you know, complicated, there's no way that will work. And like I've been making it work for a really long time. I do a very small writing and I enjoy using paper. So if that does not apply to you, I 100% say embrace the digital solution. When my kids get a Little bit older as well. And you know, right now I kind of have one using digital, but my two younger ones not so much. But I could imagine us migrating when it makes more sense for everybody.

A (18:31)

Can I ask how large the formatting is? So is it day per page? 5 days per page? Like how big are these columns?

B (18:38)

So my calendar exists on the weekly pages. Kind of could see on the video of a Hobonichi cousin planner which is a five size. So each column is like a little more than an inch wide. But it has a very small grid lines and it goes all the way from midnight to midnight.

A (18:57)

So you can see a whole week.

B (18:58)

You can see an entire week at a glance.

A (19:00)

Yeah. Okay, interesting. And then how much are you putting non appointment things on there in other words? And when are you putting those things on there? So things that are not, I need to be here. There's a meeting, there's an appointment. I'm seeing patients doing these areas. But optional tasks that you're adding just kind of keep track of what you're doing with your time.

B (19:18)

Is that now we're bleeding into task

A (19:20)

management and goal setting probably as well. Right. Is this probably touches on everything.

B (19:24)

So this is super interesting because people love to like fixate on like. Well, is it all in one tool or is it not? And in my case it is, but I do think like this is an important time to step back and like realize there's. It's still performing different functions for me and there's no reason it has to be all in one tool. But for me I do actually do most of my pretty much all of my shorter term task management on paper as well. So I have two places. Well, we're kind of skipping ahead to task management. But when you are deciding where to put a task, you want to put it in a place that it makes sense that you're going to see it at the right time. You can either assign it to a very specific time, like you can literally calendar it in. You can assign it to a day and you can do all these things digitally as well. Or you could assign it to a week. That's a little bit harder to do digitally but you can find some workarounds. And so for me, many of my like day to day tasks and I, I use the word task instead of goal here because I often talk about kind of goals turning into tasks around the weekly level. But I have a mars like a, the eighth column on the left hand side has a lot of tasks that I want to do for the week. If I have a task that I come across that isn't that urgent, then I might assign it to a future week. So well, next week doesn't have anything, but the week after that has a couple of tasks. Or I may actually stick a task up at the top of a day if I don't have a specific time slot for it, but I want to assign it to a specific day. And what I do with this is so arbitrary. Like you can do the exact same thing in Apple Notes or todoist or to do or things like the actual place, the vessel where you're holding these things is going to be unique to what your style is and how often you like to use devices versus paper, et cetera. The important thing is defining for yourself where these where do you put tasks that you want to see for the week but you don't want to, you know, assign to a specific day? Where do you put a task that you know you're going to see at the beginning of each day? And where do you maybe put a longer term task that you don't want in your face for a given week, but you know you're going to want to see later?

A (21:27)

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B (24:10)

Correct. And I make a big emphasis on making sure that you are very aware of where tasks come at you because it's usually for most of us, not just one place. You might have text messages, your WhatsApp chat, your email, your work email and your personal email. People that just stop you on the street and tell you they want to do xyz. And you need to have a really thoughtful way to make sure that each of these pathways has a pipeline that makes sense. You're checking them enough, but not necessarily all the time. And I actually kind of teach people that every given box that you might receive a task in might have its own cadence. That makes sense. So maybe you look at the sports team app twice a week, but you only look at your email three times a day or something like that. Like I'm making that up. And then to be very clear about, once those tasks come in, where are they going so that you are not going to lose track of them and you see them at the right time. Sometimes the answer is to just do the task. Something comes at you that's one minute or less, you just get it done. But then a lot of the times the Answer is to put it into whatever system you're using for task management so that you see it at the right time.

A (25:15)

Okay. And so you're vessel agnostic, but the idea is you have a singular vessel that when you check these various pipelines, stores the tasks, and then there's a separate sort of system or cadence for taking it out of that vessel and getting it onto your weekly plan, your daily plan. Is that more or less right?

B (25:38)

Yes. I mean, sometimes there's not really like an extra step there. Like if the vessel is your text messages and someone sends you a task there, it's not like it's going to some holding place. You would then let's say you make sure that at the part of your processing, and I know you talk about processing at the end of every day, either with a. TXT file or however they're doing it, but as you're processing the end of each day, you take any text message that's left, you leave it unread if it's something you have to handle, and you put it straight into whatever tool that you are going to use, whether that is again, the todoist app, your planner, whatever, whatever it is. And being very careful about. Once you've chosen where these tasks are living, you cannot be swapping around and using multiple storage vessels. You've got to be like, this is my one place. And you have to have rituals that include looking at that place. And again, that seems kind of obvious, but I get a lot of people, they're like, well, I put some, some stuff on my monthly and some on my weekly. I was like, well, when are you looking at those pages? Right? You want it to, to be somewhere that you're going to be checking at the appropriate cadence. So you know you're going to see it.

A (26:41)

All right, so what do you use? Right now?

B (26:43)

Yeah, so right now I do a few things. So if something comes at me like randomly throughout the day, I do exactly what I just said, which is that I will text myself or email myself and leave it unread. And one of the things I do at the end of every single day before as I'm shutting down, is to make sure that those. Anything that's left unread is captured. I do that with WhatsApp as well. Like if I get something from school and I'm like, oh, I need to deal with that, that needs to go into my system, that gets left unread and that inbox gets checked by the end of the day.

A (27:09)

So you said unread emails and Unread

B (27:12)

Messages, texts or WhatsApp messages.

A (27:14)

Okay, so that's going to be during your processing step, what you're looking for. So if you think up something just, you know, ex nilo, like, oh God, I forgot, I need to like start planning for X. You might send yourself an email.

B (27:25)

Yes.

A (27:25)

So that it'll be there unread.

B (27:26)

And I'm leaving it unread because it means it hasn't been processed.

A (27:29)

Okay, so then when you process, you process when? End of the day.

B (27:32)

End of the day each day. I want to see no unread texts, no unread WhatsApp messages, and no unread emails. It doesn't mean I've like archived them or dealt with them, but they are, they're not black.

A (27:42)

So then what are the. I don't even know. How can you send yourself text? I'm so tech bad.

B (27:46)

Can you send yourself text messages and then you can actually leave them? You can like, I don't know, you swipe over and you click the thing so it, so it shows that it's unread. My fingers know how to do it.

A (27:55)

There's some sequence of things I do all day long, which I can't actually tell you what it is. Okay, so then what are the options then? So this is fascinating to me. I like into the nitty gritty here. At the end of the day, you're processing what are the options for what happens to the information in one of these unread emails or text messages.

B (28:11)

Yeah. So that is where this, like where my task management system comes into play, which again, tool agnostic. But I largely use my planner. So I'm either assigning it to like this week if I need to get it done this week, I'm assigning it to a future week, or I'm giving it a specific calendar slot within my planner so that I know on Wednesday I'm going to wake up and be like, oh, at 10:00am I said I had to sign the kids up for that camp. That's going to sell out in 30 seconds. Perfect. I'm going to see that that morning, I'm going to know about it and then I'm going to do it.

A (28:41)

This is interesting. So your main place you store the task is your planner itself. It exists somehow tied to time, be it at the weekly scale or the daily scale or in a particular slot.

B (28:52)

I put almost all of my tasks and even my goals tied to time. That's kind of how I link, I call them goals kind of at the larger time horiz. Like year or season. And I call them tasks when we get down to the weekly or daily level. Again, they're not always specifically tied to time, but I mean, I guess they kind of are. Because even if I'm putting it in a future week's time frame, and even if I haven't entirely committed to dealing with it in that future week, it means I'm going to see that task on that given week. Because again, just like the day, and I have things that I want to make sure I process by the end of the day. I'm never going to exit a week without doing something. And this is actually a very key point of task management to everything I've put there. It doesn't mean I've gotten them all done, but I've either decided, you know what, I don't want to do that anymore, I'm crossing it off, or I'm migrating it. And actually this is kind of comes from the bullet journal world that I

A (29:41)

tend to write a little.

B (29:43)

Yeah. Like an arrow through it. And then I move the task to somewhere else.

A (29:46)

Oh, interesting. Okay. And then do you do that at the end of each day? Is that when you're looking at tasks that were assigned to that day you didn't do? Or is it more at the weekly cadence? You look at the whole week of things that were assigned either to the or particular days that didn't get done.

B (29:59)

So I do make a list for each day as well. We didn't even get into that. But I tend to do the exact same process. Again, this is going to be much, much quicker on a daily level, maybe. I had six tasks I assigned myself. There was one I didn't get done. But as I'm doing that sort of like end of day processing, if I have an empty checkbox on my planner, I better figure out what I need to do with that task. If I miss a day here or there. Usually I'm able to kind of catch up by making sure I haven't crossed it off the weekly. So there's kind of multiple layers in. But in general, I do that processing really at the end of every day and as I move forward to the next week.

A (30:34)

Something that's interesting to me about this approach is it may be a way around a real issue I have, and I think a lot of people have, which is task system aversion, which is this notion of if things are going into a task system, it could be a singular vessel in a very good program and things are being stored and categorized in there. There's a sort of activation energy that builds up especially if you're stressed or you're overwhelmed or the week is going difficult and you're like, my day is full. I often have days where because I work within a very fixed amount of time where I'm constantly racing the clock. It's I got to get this article in, these edits are due, there's these urgent things or whatever. And the activation energy of like, let me now load up a task system and read all these tasks and confront all that I have to do. And like I don't have time to do anything in this day and I don't want to do that. And then I fall out of the task system for multiple days. So if you're just on your the one tool. I always say everyone uses at least this one productivity tool or organization tool as a calendar because you can't remember when your dentist appointment is without it. So you know you're going to look at your plan like the weekly, like, what am I doing today? What am I doing this week? Like that will get used because you have to see. And so having the task in there means there's no separate activation energy that confront.

B (31:50)

This is huge. And it's actually like why David Allen stuff doesn't totally work for me. And it's what you said, it's like that residue of like, I don't want to look at all the things I want to do. I don't want to look at like six weeks worth of accumulated stuff when I know I have like 2 free hours on a given day. So that's exactly that activation energy. I haven't heard it described in that way, but I think you're right. For me it's so much less stressful to be like, okay, what's on today? Oh look, today's really crowded. Let's only look at that weekly list. We're not looking beyond that. And then like selecting maybe one thing. If that's all I have time for, creating my new list for the day and then never looking back for the rest of that day until I, you know, maybe when it's time to do monthly planning, I'm gonna look go larger scale. But I designed this system in part because I am like you, stressed out by the idea of seeing everything I need to do more often than I

A (32:40)

actually need to and things that are non trivial in terms of time but are still in that task category. I mean, in my experience, the way those things get done is they live on. They're on your calendar for the Day?

B (32:48)

Yes.

A (32:49)

Like, that's how it happens. It's like, no, this is what I'm doing at 12 is I'm going to the dry cleaner and then calling like, whatever information that exists in list is not very. It's much less actionable. But okay, so are you. Also, here's the other idea that I'm just thinking about ideas that are catching my attention as like, oh, wait a second. Yes. I think there's something here that's like explaining an issue that I want to solve. Because when I'm thinking about my task vessel, I'm using primarily things three right now. One of the things I do is I'll often there'll be like a bigger project and I'll generate as I come up with steps and tasks related to that project. I'll be adding them to this list and I'm like, okay, I can't have. I couldn't put all of these onto my calendar. Like, I have hundreds of tasks in there. But it sounds like until I have this right, what you would say is you shouldn't be. You're expanding too much of the goal and the practicality too early. Like, that project should exist as a goal. And when we get to your goals setting system, which we'll do next, there's a cadence in which those goals or projects generate tasks for the near future. And that probably you would say, if I have this right, yeah, your lists are too long because you're unfurling too much from these things you're working on. You don't need to do that in advance. You need to see what the projects are, look at your week and figure out what am I going to try to make progress on this week with these projects and what does that actually look like practically? And let me put those tasks for the week of a particular day. Is that.

B (34:16)

But yeah. And there's nothing bad. I don't think about keeping future potential project steps somewhere convenient. Like for you, it might be things for me, I love.

A (34:26)

I'm looking at my list while you talk, by the way. Now I'm thinking it's really fun.

B (34:29)

We can experiment with like an actual thing that you want it to do. Like, there's nothing wrong with having a receptacle for ideas. Like, I'm imagining maybe you have like a renovation list and there's a whole bunch of things on there. But the truth is you're not a assigning yourself all of those things at once because there's no way that fits in Cal Newport's lifestyle when he's Also working and dealing with kids from day to day. So that's exactly right. You might have that as a reference, but you're not like putting on your plate all those things until you've decided to put one of them on your plate, if that kind of makes sense. And that might happen. Not to skip ahead at a higher level goal setting system, like maybe you are planning your summer and you're like, you know what, now is the time I'm ready to tackle that bathroom reno and maybe I'll just put like begin bathroom reno on the list. And then on the monthly level you think about, well, what piece am I going to do first? I'm going to get quotes. And then again that kind of generates more smaller tasks at the weekly level where you're like, oh, let me text my friend and find out which contractor he used or whatever, so things will trickle down. But the idea that you kind of need to have all of them assigned you as tasks when they're not really happening yet, I find that stressful. And again, I think that's partly why I built the things the way that I did.

A (35:42)

Well, I just noticed looking at my list now that there's multiple pretty technical tasks related to one of the courses I'm teaching right now. Because at some point I was like, this needs to get done. I need to post the syllabus for the second half of the year and I need to check in with the TAs on this or that I'm putting these things down so that it's not just in my head, but there's also a notion of, well, if you trust yourself that there's just a standing project for the semester, which is the course, and if I just at the beginning of each week was like, where am I in the course? What's coming up? What needs to get done this week? I'm not going to forget though I will be able to generate those things as the time comes up. Most likely I said, okay, I'm looking ahead at this week. The rest of my syllabus should probably go up. We're getting towards the end of it, so let me schedule that for this week. Or I don't need to. The TA thing maybe is relevant when there's an exam degrade or something like that. So there's some interesting balance.

B (36:37)

You have some sort of system and I'm sure you already do something like this where you're like looking ahead at your week and that's often going to generate tasks that kind of like make sense for what's coming Up. So part of planning at every time horizon and this even includes the day you're not just looking back at like, well, what did my previous self want to do? You're like, oh, what's actually coming up ahead? Is there anything associated?

A (36:58)

Any.

B (36:58)

And you being cal you would do it. You can trust yourself. Like, I'm sure that you would look ahead of the week and be like, oh, we have this coming up. And if you had to do something that's longer range, maybe you would leave yourself some kind of a note prior to that. But I feel like if these are things that are just like generally part of your job and your flow anyway, then yeah, you'd come up with them and you probably don't need to have them somewhere separate. Now if having a list of everything is just helpful to have a reference, I don't even know if I would call it part of your task management system, almost just more of like a collection or reference, then that could make sense. But you haven't truly assigned it to yourself.

A (37:36)

So let me tell you my goal setting system and then I want to hear. Let's do. As a CS term, we'll do a diff. It was an old command line program. You give it to text files and it would highlight exactly where they differed. So it was like how you would tell if there's changes to source code in a shared code repository. This is the type of stuff people come here for, Sarah. They want to hear about that.

B (37:55)

This is the type of stuff where

A (37:56)

I'm like, okay, Linux command line interfaces. All right, so my multiscale. So now I know my multiscale planning is what you would call goal setting system.

B (38:05)

Nested goals.

A (38:06)

Nested goals. All right, so the way I run it is I typically have like a semester or quarterly check in. Like, what are the big things that are happening this season? I mean, they roughly correspond to my academic semesters. And I write it out freehand. It's in a text file. It's like, hey, I don't want this to be too structured yet. So it'll be things like, I'm teaching this course and here's the type of things I have to keep in mind. Where am I on, like, if I'm writing a book, like where I'm really looking to be done with, submit the manuscript by December, which means I probably need to be doing a chapter a month. It's thinking through at a high level what's happening at this scale then. And this has sort of been my secret sauce that I think you were one of the few people who actually talked about this scale as well is actually for me is the weekly scale is critical because it's where I interface that plan in the calendar. And this was like a big thing for me. I look at that, okay, what are these things that are these big picture goals? I look at my task lists, which now I'm learning are probably too detailed. And so this could be a lot easier. These could be like more stakes in the ground instead of like long list of things. I look at my task list and I look at my calendar, which at this point is really just going to have things that are appointments and meetings. So I can see like, what's the layout of my week, when do I have time, when do I not have time, which days are busy or not are there? This was a key innovation. I came at some point. I was like, oh, this is the time to look for big win changes. If I cancel this one appointment Friday at 11am, that's going to free up like six straight hours. And so like I see now I'm going to be frustrated when I get there. I'm just going to move that to like another day or something like that. And this is when I start putting stuff on the calendar that's not meeting or appointment. So now I'm like, I want to make progress on this goal. I'm going to now block time on my calendar, like a meeting or appointment for that particular goal. Like, I'm going to be writing this day, this day and this day. I'm going to work on this like project this afternoon. And now I'm starting to protect time at that scale. It's also where if there's key tasks, I'll start, when am I going to get these done? And I'll start actually adding them to my calendar. So by the end of my weekly plan, the calendar is like a lot fuller. There's a lot less space in it, but only some of it is actually meetings or appointments. A lot of it's what I came up with. And then I go to the daily scale. Every day I make a time block plan for the day. Now what I found is if I don't time block plan unless it's a writing day where it's like, all that really matters is I write as much as possible. Like I'm on deadline and then it's just survival mode for everything else outside of those days. A lot of that day. By the time I get to it, the calendar is pretty full because I've been making use of it. But I Transfer that into a daily time block plan, and I fill in the remaining gaps in the workday for what do I want to do during that time, and then I execute off of the daily time block plan for the day as opposed to, like, list reactive method. All right, so that's my goal setting system. What's our diff there? Where are the places where we differ

B (40:48)

or do I do things differently? So I would say I lean a little bit less heavily on scheduling things, which is interesting. So, like, when I go, I actually will also add that I love to have a monthly level as well, because I have actually figured out that I'm gonna pull my little monthly out. And yes, this one's analog too. My schedule is very weird and varies a lot from month to month because I have weeks where I'll be entirely on call, entirely clinical. I can't do anything for the podcast, and then I'll have other weeks that maybe I've taken, like, time off to do work for the podcast. So, like, my months can be incredibly variable. So I actually have a step in here, even on the monthly level, where I'll look to see how many, like, kind of work days do I have? When I say work days, I mean like, how many clinical work days and how many work for myself days and how many days is the family going away, et cetera. And that's how I will kind of decide how much I want to take on from a creative perspective, because that's the lever that kind of moves the most. Can go high on some months and low and other months.

A (41:50)

So month to month, kids, it's not just week to week. You're like, this month might be a clinical month, correct?

B (41:58)

Or maybe not the entire month is clinical.

A (42:00)

But like, like, whatever. That's like the ca. This. The. The feel of this month is like, I'm actually doing a lot more like, in office stuff. It's so. It's interesting.

B (42:08)

Correct? Like, January, I had lots of days that I could play around and work. And then February, we had a week of family vacation. I had something medical going on, and I had a week of call. So that left me like, I don't know, this is like one out of four days is today that I actually have time to do anything. So that kind of helps me take a larger overview. Like, how much can I actually take on here? Do I even want to add anything kind of new over the course of the month? And then that kind of informs, you know, the bigger things that I'm taking on. And I actually do usually create A list for the month that I look, look towards as I'm planning each week. And then my link, my weekly process is similar to yours, but I don't tend to do as much of what you' saying, which is where I'll say oh, I have to write this, I'm going to like give it a specific time slot. I tend to just sort of look, okay, I have this many hours, I have this many projects and on a day to day basis as I'm planning my day, that is when I'll actually commit to like what fits where. And that's just personal preference. I don't like to feel entirely locked in. Like I think maybe it is kind of a backlash to on my clinical days every minute is spoken for. So on my notes non clinical days I want to be like, do I want to write from 10 to 12 or 1 to 3? I want to make that decision that day and I do purposefully make it on that day. Kind of my own version of time block planning and think about what fits where. But I don't go ahead and kind of pre schedule it throughout the week. So my weekly schedule aside from the clinical days actually probably looks less full than yours does when I'm going to the daily level. And then it's on the daily level where I say okay, which of these tasks am I selecting and where do I actually want to fit it within the day. But otherwise I think our systems are have a lot of parallels.

A (43:45)

I think, I mean I prefer that if my issue, the reason why I have to do the way I do it is that if I don't protect that time, like Monday morning, God, everyone comes and takes it. So that's my main issue is like I'm like, if I say I'll figure out Thursday, when I get to Thursday, everyone in the world wants that time. And by the time I get to Thursday, like the time to work on these things is gone. So it helps me basically it helps me say no to appointments. But I had this conversation when Oliver Berkman stopped by earlier this year and we were talking about various things. He was like here's my ideal schedule. And I agreed with him. He's like the ideal schedule just from human nature, not fix a particular job would be kind of deep work. In the morning you're working on something important and then when you're done, then you're like based on how much energy I have let me do a few other smaller practical things more or less depending on my mood and then be done. And I was like Oliver, I'm with you, man. That's my rhythm as well. Unfortunately, the world has conspired to prevent that because I'm not a full time writer. Okay, so that's interesting, though. I get that. I get stressed out by my calendar and I feel like I have to do it because otherwise the chess game's too complicated I'm playing, but I think that's more a problem with the game I'm playing.

B (45:04)

Well, I think, again, you're an academician. Academic. I don't know. Sorry, I don't even know how to pronounce the word. But with certain careers, people can dump things on your calendar if they see open space. And I can see why that would really lend it to, like. No, no, no. This says writing, so don't you dare put anything there. I am lucky in that. Well, my patient time is all up for grabs, and that will get as filled as it gets filled. But my time for myself, I'm really the only one who could dump stuff on there. That's just how I've designed things. And. And I think that allows me to be a little bit less scheduled.

A (45:34)

I'll tell you my big innovation of this year, and I can get away with this now because I'm out of promotions to get. I'm a full professor, been tenured for a decade. There's nothing else for me to worry about, upsetting people about. I introduced the notion of a studio day, and for me, it's Tuesdays. Because now that I'm doing a lot more digital ethics and not sort of hardcore computer science, I was like, look, this podcast, my newsletter, this is a big part of my work as a public intellectual on technology, et cetera. So studio days, as I just tell my employer, I'm not available on Tuesdays, I don't. I don't do meetings on Tuesday. I'm in my studio, I'm recording, I'm writing. And this is. I've consolidated it this one day, but it's like I'm reaching millions of people and this is important. And I'll ask for forgiveness instead of permission. And that's been like a huge. That's been a big boon, actually. It's like, yeah, I just don't. I don't do things on Tuesday. And people grumble and then they have lives and they stop caring because it's not that interesting to them.

B (46:35)

That totally makes sense. And I feel very privileged that I'm doing this. Not on your studio day, but thank you for accommodating my patient schedule.

A (46:41)

Oh, I'M happy to do things on other days too. But like, I just don't put, like I have to go in, I have to go teach today. You know, that's which I, which I do enjoy. Okay, so then let's talk about seasonality because this is something interesting. Your book Best Laid Plans. The book, not the podcast, Best Laid Bands. There's a lot on this and I think we're very congruent on this idea of moving away from the notion of just year round, no variation. It's just like you're turning the crank at a certain level of intensity. And February feels the same as June, feels the same as December. Talk to me about varying rhythms, pace, workloads over time. Time.

B (47:21)

Well, first of all, I just love the concept of seasons in general. And I don't know if that's partly because I live in South Florida and I don't really get to experience them, but I just like to really, really like think about them and think about how my year makes sense divided up. And I actually kind of talk about different ways that you might think about dividing up your year other than the traditional quarters or even trimesters if you're an academic. But I really do like to take a very purposeful, like on almost half a day kind of planning session four or five times a year. For me, it's five because I like to divide the year up into five pieces and think about what do I want out of the upcoming season and not to assume that, you know, season C is going to be exactly like season A. For me, the first season of the year is like January 1st to spring break and that's usually a very go, go, go season. And then we kind of have a very kid focused season from spring break until the end of the year when we have all that like, like May stuff and every single kid is in every single competition or whatever. And then summer I treat as much more like let's just be lower key, do fun stuff. And by the way, I didn't mention this previously, but I think one other place we differ a little bit is I am very passionate about not just planning my work, but planning the fun stuff like planning the get togethers with friends and the travel and the massage or you know, whatever it is that I'm trying to build into my life to make it more fun. And so summer might be a time that I have like a lot of fun planned and it's just like a looser time period. Then we have back to school, which has that rhythm of like, okay, kids are going back. We're in our routines. I'm also, because I'm in the planning world, tend to be really, really busy in, like, January and back to school season. So that kind of makes sense. And then I have what's called reflection season from November 1st to the end of the year where I just feel like the world takes on a different pace. It's a bit little celebratory. Everyone's reflecting, and I just like to, like, acknowledge that as having its own energy. So, yes, I'm super, super big into A, like, acknowledging the seasonal flows, and B, like, purposefully setting time to think very hard about what you want each season to be like in advance of that season.

A (49:24)

So wait, so your quintiles are. So you got like New Year's through spring break, spring break, spring break, to

B (49:31)

the end of the school year?

A (49:31)

End of school year, yeah. Period. Which I agree with you. It's kind of like, I think if it's a time when it's coaching time for me too, it's like I coach multiple different things. Summer, then back to school to like,

B (49:44)

Thanksgiving and then until Halloween, and then November 1st to December 31st, to me just feels a little bit different.

A (49:49)

Well, but you got like, holiday. Yeah. And you have. There's like the Thanksgiving holiday, there's going to be like the Christmas holiday, there's going to be. And people wind down. What I think, A, I love it. And I think similarly. And I think what's important here, though, is because a lot of times when I talk about seasonality, you probably get the same thing. People will push back because they'll say, well, my job isn't seasonal, but this is true for you. Right. Nothing about pediatric endocrinology changes in March versus January, But I think what's captured by the way you talk about it is so much of the feeling of your day and what you're focusing on, busyness expands beyond just what you're doing in your job. It's what you're doing on the weekends, in the evenings, on the day that you're not in the office. And turning the knob on those things you do control actually has a much bigger impact than. People realize that it's not just, I can't take time off of work in the summer, so I can't have a seasonality. Well, it's completely different what you're doing with your time, even outside of work. And then my argument, you can't do that in your job. I don't think this would work. But in a lot of knowledge work Jobs because it's a little more bse. You have a lot of give, and you can really turn intensity up and down is something that I'm often telling knowledge workers in general because the job is so amorphous, and there is no. Just like, here's a list of things that you're working on, and here's your progress. It's all like, email and meetings or this or that. And you can often get away with like, oh, I want to turn things down in the summer. And you could do it for a couple months, and no one will notice. If you do it for a year, they'll eventually notice, but you're just, like, taking on less things and moving slower, and then you speed up in other times. So I think people have. Have way more control over the rhythm of their life than they realize.

B (51:30)

Totally structured job for me. I get around that by taking more vacation in the summer. So, you know, many jobs, even if they're extremely structured and, yeah, I can't get away with, oh, Let me see, 75% of my patient volume in July. Like, that wouldn't fly. But I can take two weeks off and, like, save my vacation time for those times when I want things to be slower and then maybe take on a little bit less on the creative side and then kind of create that slower rhythm for myself.

A (51:54)

Isn't this, like, the. The people who do this to the most extreme. Do I have this right? There's like. It's like ER Doctors who sort of travel, right? And it'll be like, okay, I'm gonna come spend three months at this hospital in Boulder so that I ended up gonna ski for three months. And they really got that locked in. Right. Because it's shift work.

B (52:14)

There are definitely certain professions who either have tons of vacation time or tons of flexibility or there are a lot of doctors these days that will do, like, locums work. So they could decide that they're gonna work their butt off in March and April, and then, like, not at all for two months. So that would be the extreme version.

A (52:28)

Yeah. And it's all like, the pit.

B (52:33)

Yeah. Everything I do all day, it's just like that.

A (52:34)

Everyone is super reasonable, like, on the pit. Right. That's just every doctor's experience where people just talk slowly and quietly and are just very reasonable.

B (52:41)

It's never chaotic at all in the er. It's very peaceful and.

A (52:44)

Yeah, it's very peaceful. Okay, I like that, then. Okay, so we agree on the seasonality. All right, so to pull this together for people, I want to Build an on ramp. So like for a typical member of my audience might be they've messed around with individual type of tools you might use in this conversation. They've had a to do manager. They have a calendar that they sometimes use. They've used a time block planner and then stopped using a time block planner. They have a task list they haven't looked at in a month because it stresses them out. But they're liking what you're saying. Like okay, I think I'm going to be less susceptible to being pushed around by big tech and distractions and numbing if I can take more intention about my life knowing now as we talked about it, intention might be like I'm intentionally slowing down and then speeding up here. And it's not productivity, it's not trying to increase the amount of work. How do we on ramp? Because we talked about a lot of things so how do we on ramp someone beyond the obvious answer is read Sarah's book.

B (53:38)

I was going to say you buy best laid plans and you read no I'm just kidding.

A (53:41)

Which I blurred. And it's a great book. I mean it really walks through through all these details, lots of examples and you can kind of pick and choose. I feel like in your book though you don't do it explicitly. There's sort of like here's what's key and then here's like a little bit more advanced things you can add on. And so like the reader already has a system can plus it up but like the new reader. Yeah. So how do we onboard the new the new data planning?

B (54:04)

So I would just focus on those three things that I talked about like do you have a calendar that makes sense where you're really able to see what you have to do each day in a way that makes sense sense to you. Do you have a task management system that works and it enables you to see what you need to see at the right time and are you checking your various inboxes in a thoughtful manner versus a when things come at me manner? And how are you organizing your goals both larger scale and smaller scale and adapting some sort of. It could be a bare bones version and by the way the tools really truly don't matter. Like I could do all of this in a binder in Apple notes notes in on paper on like a really notion in a really fancy system. Like there's no specific tool but to have somewhere to have rituals around setting larger scale goals whether you're doing the yearly or seasonal level and then also ways that you're going to bring that into the more practical timelines. So a way of looking at your seasonal stuff every week, maybe incorporating monthly in there and then day to day assigning yourself the task that makes sense. So I think that would be my sort of like bare bones minimum calendar. Understand your task management and have some kind of larger and smaller scale way of looking at your goals on a daily or weekly level plus seasonal or yearly. That would be the most bare bones version.

A (55:22)

And that latter piece requires a thing to write things down in. So there's the latter piece of like I want to look at the monthly scale and the seasonal scale for you, that's a notebook and it's a separate notebook in your planner. But you need somewhere where you're. And it could be a Google Doc, it could be a text file, but you need somewhere where you're taking notes.

B (55:40)

Like a lot of people that I've worked with have had really cool systems and even just like Google sheets where things are actually very much like, you know, they'll have a whole page for the year and then you can actually tab it and separate by seasons. And they have different categories of their life all color coded. So yes, you do have to capture all this stuff. The medium in which you do that doesn't really matter. But you're gonna have to commit to something and continue to use it and to look at it at it. And I usually also talk about creating rituals that make sense for the timescale. So if you're planning the year or the season, you want to dedicate like a good amount of presence and time to that. So you're going to really want to clear out an afternoon or for the year. Laura Vanderkam, who has been on this show before, I believe as well, she and I host a like live planning retreat that lasts two days. And I'm not saying everyone needs to, you know, come to our retreat specifically, but we do not run out of things to talk about with our participants in those two days for planning the year. So really giving yourself the gift of space when it's a larger time frame to think about what's coming up and what do you want out of that time frame. Makes sense. And then when you're going to the day, you want something very, very quick. Obviously we can't do a two day retreat every day. Right. But we should have things kind of laid out so that you can look at your calendar, which is organized, look at your week, which has already been thought through and select your task for the day in like 5 to 10 minutes and be done with it.

A (57:02)

And then let me finally, I have to rope you in, as I do with all guests, into some sort of AI realism rant. Because, you know, this has been been my correcting the narrative on AI has been a big part of my work recently. I want to rope you into my side on this, the intersection of AI and productivity. Because I feel like there's this tech people aren't the best people to talk about organizational systems because what makes a tech person happy is complexity and pieces fitting together and whatever. But they've really been pushing this idea that, oh, the missing piece in people being organized could be solved by AI. And it really doesn't seem to be the issue based on our whole conversation. The issue is not when I am looking at what I need to do, understanding it, figuring out priorities, figuring out what I should work on today. We're really good at that. Like, our brains have embedded in it all of the relevant information, what's coming up, importance, how you're feeling, health, other thing that's happening. That's not hard at all. What's hard is consistency and capture. It's sticking with a system, maintaining intentionality instead of just falling back into like, let me just be reactive because I'm exhausted. And none of that's helped by AI. So I don't know, can I rope you into my rant on this is

B (58:21)

that I am always up for an AI rant. So that totally works for me. Yeah, I just don't want to give some large language model that control over what I do all day. I mean, I want to be the one selecting my tasks. One of my biggest. And again, I'm not a techie, so I don't understand the inner workings like you do. But one of my biggest concerns about AI is that it's giving power to someone else else that I, you know, I'm not consciously giving. So even like as simple as, oh, let me have AI plan my vacations for the year, then, I mean, who's not to say that like, various places haven't like paid the model to suggest some things versus another, or if we're not there yet, we're going to be very soon. So I mean, for me, life, the most precious thing of life is our time and our relationships. And I would like to maintain control over that myself. And so I want to decide what goes on my calendar. I haven't. I'm not saying that AI tools might not be helpful for some people. Like, you know, there are things like the Skylight calendar and I think some of these apps where you could take the soccer schedule and it will, you know, scan it and add those events to your calendar. Like those kind of rote tasks. See? Being helpful. But in terms of selecting what I want to do with my time, I would like to leave computer algorithms out of that, personally. And I think most people probably don't want to live a life that was just suggested to them. They want to actively choose what they're going to do. That's kind of the point of planning in the first place.

A (59:50)

I've never seen someone be stumped by looking at their calendar and their to do list and be like, I don't know what to do next. I need someone else to come tell me. I've never seen someone stumped on that. That's not that hard decision. All right, so this has been fantastic. I want to make sure people know where to get more of this information. So you have two podcasts. Tell us about both.

B (60:10)

I do. So the first one is the one that's more planning adjacent. It's called Best Laid Plans, and I literally describe it as all things planning and planning adjacent. That one is just me with the occasional guest. Cal has been on it before, and I will be having him on again. The other one is called Best of Both Worlds, and that is done with Laura Vanderkin. We co hosted together, and that's about making work and life fit together. She's an awesome writer and time management guru. So we make a fun, fun team there.

A (60:36)

In your book Best Laid Plans, what's that come out in the fall? Not too long ago?

B (60:39)

No, December of 2025. It's called Best Laid Plans, a simple system for living a life that you love.

A (60:45)

One of Amazon's best nonfiction books of the month, right?

B (60:49)

Yes. It got chosen for December. It was like, a big shock. People are like, did you pay for that? I'm like, no. But that was a really fun honor. And it says editor's pick on there. Of course, you can get it at anywhere other than Amazon as well, but that was kind of a fun thing.

A (61:03)

Excellent. All right, well, Sarah, always a pleasure to have you on. Thanks for getting the Weeds with us. I think this type of thing is going to be helpful for a lot of my listeners who you got to take control of your time. If you don't, Big Tech will happily take control of it for you. So this is the first step. I'm sure we'll be talking again soon, but thanks, as always, for coming on.

B (61:20)

Oh, thank you so much for having me on. And I very much enjoyed talking about the Pit.

A (61:25)

All right, so that was my discussion with, with Sarah Hart Unger. I looked it up. I was on the show, Jesse, so it's worth people going back. Also years back, I think we had Sarah on our show. Yeah, we did, yeah. So sort of a long term front of the show. I love geeking out about planning systems. To me, the key point that prefaces the whole discussion because I think her advice is spot on. I actually picked up some ideas there that I think are important. But the key point that I think ties together the whole conversation is that Sarah did not like, like to associate the word productivity with planning. She's like, that's two different things. Productivity is about, I don't know, professionally you're trying to increase the amount of something you produce and that's that. But what she cared about was controlling your time. How do you have a say over what you're doing with your time? So you have control. I often use the term internally. Attention shaping. How do you shape your own attention so other services don't? And I think that's really useful. If we separate plans planning from productivity, we realized like, oh, this is one of the tier one skills, not just for living a deep life, but for pushing back on the digital distraction. So very good. It was good to have Sarah on the show. Let's take another quick break to hear from our sponsors. This episode is sponsored by Better Help. March is here, a month that includes International Women's Day. A moment to celebrate women's strength and progress while also recognizing how much they carry. And every day now, as someone who writes about time management and organization, I've heard from countless women about how much harder these goals can be for them as compared to men. Right? They have to deal with more household labor at home, more non promotable activities at work, and play the role of listener in chief and problem solver for so many different people in their lives. And this can be a lot. So for anyone who feels like you have a lot on your plate, this is a good time to remember that therapy offers a space to take care of yourself in the way that you deserve. And if you're going to consider therapy, consider BetterHelp. With over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 6 million people globally. And it works. They have an average rating of 4.9 out of 5 for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. Your emotional well being matters. Find support and feel lighter in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com deepquestions that's betterhelp.com deepquestions I also want to talk about our friends at Shopify. Starting a new business is hard. I remember what it was like starting up the media company that produces this podcast. Here's what I learned. Don't reinvent the wheel if you can avoid it. Trust industry leaders where you can. This is where Shopify enters the scene. If you need to sell something, you need Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, including 10% of all E commerce in the U.S. we're talking big names like Allbirds and Mattel to new brands just getting started. You want to sell online? They can help you with their design studio that features hundreds of ready to use templates. You need help spreading the word. They can help you easily create email and social media campaigns. Look, if we ever start selling products on this show, I know exactly what platform we'll use. It will be Shopify. So it's time to turn those what ifs into with Shopify today. Sign up for your $1 per month trial today at shopify.com deep. Go to shopify.com deep that's shopify.com deep.

C (65:04)

All right.

A (65:04)

All right, let's get back to the show. All right, so you've heard me talking with Sarah and now I want to hear from you. So let's move on to the part of the show where we check our inbox to see what you have to say. All right, Jesse, what interesting emails or messages have we gotten recently that's worth reviewing?

C (65:26)

The first one's from Sandra. Here's an email from her who is wondering if our dopamine addiction is changing how they make make TV shows.

A (65:34)

Okay, let's see. I got this. It's a good one because we are, it's going to be not until later in the spring, but we are having Anna Lemke on, who is the researcher who wrote Dopamine Nation, like the world's leading experts on dopamine, how it affects us. So we're going to get. I'm learning a lot about dopamine now, so I'm glad to have this question. All right, so let's see here. I got Sandra's email here. Here's what she said. Have you noticed that in TV programs such as the Great Pottery Throwdown, when the program finishes, they say next time and then they show you the highlights of the next show, like a trailer? I hate this as I don't Want to know what happens next time? I want a surprise. They also do this at the start of the next program, saying, this time, and then show the trailer which highlights the show again. Is this an effect of dopamine? There is no delayed surprise. Basically, you don't have to watch the whole show. You can just watch the first five minutes and decide if you really want to see the full detail. All right, so first of all, Jesse, I assume you're a great pottery throwdown completist. You've seen every season of that show.

C (66:42)

I have.

A (66:43)

Do you think that's literally people just making pottery? Probably. So when they're like, all right, next time, next time on the show, and it just shows people very quietly at the pottery wheel, and then there's all

C (66:55)

this drama if something's ready to topple over.

A (66:57)

Well, yeah, it wobbles a little bit, and then they straighten it and it kind of sticks on that for a second. And then one of the contestants comes in the frames, stabs him in the neck. See, that's where the drama is. That's why you gotta watch. Is this gonna be a stabbing episode or just an episode where they make pottery? All right, there's a couple interesting things here, because you know what this reminded me of, Jesse, is the advice that we heard from professional YouTubers about how you have to build a YouTube video to get big viewership on YouTube. Remember, like, the various YouTube people we work with have told us, like, oh, the thing is, like, watch a Mr. Beast video. You'll see this. You have to show the people, the audience, right off the bat, this is what's coming. And you show quick clips of the biggest, exciting things that's going to happen. So like a Mr. Beast video, if they're crashing a train into something, you'll see the train crashing into something, right? They just show here's all the things that are gonna come. And then you go and you deliver the things you said you're gonna come later in the show with very limited friction. So quick cuts, moving, moving, moving, moving to the things you already showed that was gonna come. That sounds like it's exactly what's happening on these TV shows as well. I don't know the role of dopamine because we haven't had Anna on the show yet. But there is a bigger phenomenon here that may or may not be tied to dopamine that we need a good name for. Jesse. We gotta think about, like, a good name for this. But there's something about the abundance of choice in media where now, if I go into a streaming service, there is endless things I could choose. That makes it hard to choose and commit to something to watch because your brain is always thinking, there might have been a better choice. And I hear this a lot. I think we see this in our letters sometimes, right? Like, young people in particular will be like, I have such a hard time, like, choosing and sticking with a movie. I think we got this in response to last week's episode because a lot of people wrote in about movies. And a lot of people, like, yeah, even people who don't use their phone a lot were like, I just have a hard time sticking with the movie. And so I wonder if there's something like this going on. Is the abundance of choice makes it really hard for us to commit to something because our mind is like, there is other options in a way. There wasn't. If you were just turning on TV and you flip through the channels, you're like, this is literally the only thing on right now that's like, a little bit interesting to me. Me, I have no other option. Your brain's like, let's watch it. Or if you're at the movie theater, you're like, there's no other place for me to go, so I might as well watch it. But if you have one click away from those horizontal carousels on Netflix, like, my God, there could be something better. So maybe that's what these TV shows are recognizing. We have to show them the audience. Here's all the stuff that's coming. You're like, okay, I want to see that, that, and that. All right. This show is worth me watching. I hate that as well. My kids hate it. They're always like, don't fast forward, fast forward. Whenever we're watching a show that has a next time. All right, what else do we got here?

C (69:43)

Next up is from Kendra. We have an email from Kendra with a reaction to your discussion last week of film students who couldn't make it through entire films.

A (69:51)

We got a lot of reaction for that one. Yeah, I think because people, like. It's something a lot of people have personal experience with. All right, let's see here. Kendra says, what I don't see mentioned here or most other places is that the length of movies has actually increased over the last 10 plus years. It used to be that a movie was between 1.5 hours and 2 hours, but that time is creeping up. Seems like most of them are over two hours now. And personal opinion, it doesn't always make the movie better. Intuitively, I guess I've had that same effect. My wife and I started last Night Train Dreams, which is one of the best picture nominees. It's out of Netflix Studios and we noted it actually caught our attention that it was an hour 47. So this must be a fact like that felt short. Notably short. I found an article, I haven't really read this yet, so we're going to kind of do this on the air. I found a Vanity Fair article about exactly this phenomenon. I'm a little bit curious about what's going on. So let's look at this. I'm going to see if there's any interesting stats in this piece. I like this ad of James Cameron wearing Rolex. Why is James. Okay, I'm sorry to go do a divergence here. If you're James Cameron, why are you agreeing to do a Rolex ad?

C (71:05)

You get free watches.

A (71:06)

He's so rich. He's so rich. I think his net worth is like a billion dollars.

C (71:12)

Is it really?

A (71:13)

Yeah, I mean he's the director and producer with significant profit participation in 3 out of the top 5 highest grossing movies of all time.

C (71:23)

I think with those watches they don't really have to do much and they just get cool watches in cool places. Somebody just wants to do that that I don't.

A (71:29)

But I mean a billion dollars, right? So like I'm just. Let's make this relative. Right, like so for us, like what would be the, the cost of a Rolex to James Cameron? What would be the equivalent for like us and the money we have? That would be like. I think if someone is like, come do this photo shoot and like I'm go, if you do it, I, I'm going to give you a, a tall coffee from Starbucks at 50% off. Like you only got to pay like $1.25 for it. Like I'm not going to go do an all day photo shoot. Like I could just buy a cup of coffee. The only thing I can imagine. I'm sure this is fascinating for our audience. The only thing I can imagine is that the diving, deep sea diving aspect. They sponsored the documentary. I think they sponsored the documentary he did where he went to the bottom of. Oh, that's why the Mariana store. It might make more sense because if you're. Did you ever see that documentary where he goes to the bottom of the Mariana Star Trench?

C (72:21)

No, I haven't.

A (72:22)

It's really interesting. But they have a arm coming off of the submersible that's just holding. I think it's a Rolex watch the show that like look, this diver watch at the bottom of the Mariana's Trench is still working or something like that. Okay, so that's probably just part of the deal. Yeah, yeah, because he didn't want to pay for that documentary. All right, we figured it out. All right, anyways, here we go. Here's some stats about the. Let's see if Kendra is right about this. Here's what Vanity Fair says. In 2002, even as two nearly three hour Lord of the Ring movies dominated theaters, the average length of the top 20 box office performers was a breezy 1 hour and 59 minutes. 20 years later, moviegoers had to sit through an extra 13 minutes of footage on average. Okay, so we went from hour 59 in 2002 on average to, if I'm doing my Math, math right, 2 hours and 12 minutes in 2022. All right, so movies did get longer. Is there a reason I skimmed some of the rest of this article? Here's what's interesting about it, is they have a lot of people saying, all right, here, here's a. Let me read this quote here. The studios are definitely not encouraging three hour movies. That I can guarantee, says a senior movie executive. As a consumer, speaking for myself and on behalf of many other people like me, enough already. All right, so if the studios aren't encouraging this, why are the movies getting longer? It seems like it's just the filmmakers want to make longer movies.

C (73:52)

Why do you think that is?

A (73:53)

They like them. Like, here we go. Well, let me read you from the article, Jesse. Cinema purists might see a long film as a sign of a director with something to say. So, yeah, it just seems better. I have another theory for this as well, though. All right, so yes, the studios don't want it. The audiences don't necessarily want it. The directors want it, but they've always wanted long movies. Right. I suspect the difference is there's fewer movies. They mentioned 2002. Sure, the Lord of the Rings movies were three hours long, but the average movie was short. But at 2002, you probably had a lot more movies in the theater and you had a lot of mid tier movies because there's just a lot more movies coming out than there are now. And the mid tier movies they were not going to allow to be long. But it seems now there's fewer movies and the movies that are made, they tend to be more like big event movies. It's going to be like a Chris Nolan movie. It's going to be Martin Scorsese Killer of the Flowers Moon. Right. It's going to be these big event movies and maybe those have always been long. We just don't have shorter movies to pull it down. Like do you think that's true?

C (74:54)

There's less movies now because you always talk about.

A (74:55)

No, there's maybe fewer. Why is that post pandemic?

C (75:00)

They're still recovering.

A (75:00)

The global box office is. It has not made it back to 2019, hasn't come close.

C (75:05)

But in terms of book sales, books.

A (75:07)

Books are okay. Interesting. But even that, it's a little bit misleading. Book sales industry wide are doing fine. They've continued to rise at a reasonable pace. But what's really happening is nonfiction sales are down, which is bad for me. But it's being compensated for because of these massive hits, especially in women oriented fiction and fantasy fans fiction. So you have the dark fantasy books where people are marrying dragons and books like Colin Hoover books that come out of Booktok and they're selling huge numbers, 20 million copies of a book. Just huge numbers. Mainly more among female readers than male readers. Nonfiction is not doing as well and in part that tended to be more of where you had male book readers and they're not reading as much much. So books are doing fine, but it's a little bit uneven. But movies are not doing nearly as well and even the biggest hits aren't as big of hits as they were sort of pre pandemic because yeah, I mean, think about all the movies. We talked about it last week. Like probably the greatest movie of that decade came out in 2002, which was the Britney Spears vehicle Crossroads. But there's a lot of movies like that in 2002. There's not as many of those today. And those are all short because they're like, no, you can't make it long. We want to like move as many movies through. But then when Peter Jackson came along, he's like on the Lord of the Rings he was like, I do three hours. Like I guess. Sure. And now it's like all Peter Jackson movies. That's my theory. All right. Do we have another email?

C (76:38)

Yep. This is from an anonymous person. It's a comment saying that extends some of the issues you discuss about attention span last week from the context of movies to the workplace place.

A (76:49)

All right, Anonymous, let's read this note here. One angle of smartphone addiction I haven't seen discussed is the fact that it's torpedoing the ability of people to focus at work. Anecdotally, I've heard from many people saying that they have trouble paying attention in meetings and experienced Aloofness from my co workers firsthand. If corporate America cares mostly about profits, why don't we see pressure from companies on their employees to curb their smartphone induced fragmentation? Would love to hear your take. Signed Anonymous. That's an interesting point. Become a bigger issue. This used to be separate magisteria for me in my writing and I'd have to always make the point when I would do interviews, et cetera. Like these are two separate issues. Distraction in the workplace is driven by workplace communication tools like email and slack. Distraction at home is being driven by attention economy platform tools on your smartphones like social media. And I said the effects are similar, your attention is fragmented but the causes are different and therefore the solutions are different. The issue in work has to do with with the way we collaborate because we collaborate with this hyperactive hive mind approach of everyone just talks to everyone on demand as you're needed. It creates a situation which you have to constantly monitor communication channels not because they're super addictive or super sticky or because you have bad work habits, but because that's where the work is happening and if you don't monitor it, you fall behind and that's what's distracting you. Whereas on your phone outside of work, the reason why you're looking at that phone all the time is because it's engineered to be hyper engaged and it's creating a reward loop within your short term motivational system. And then those neuronal bundles are voting for the phone whenever they see it and it wins out over other activities most of the time, two separate problems. But what Anonymous is saying is something that I've seen to be increasingly true, which is that the distractions from the phone have gotten so good that as we talked about last week, they're overall reducing people's cognitive patience. They're overall reducing people's comfort with any sort of sustained attention even when they're in a non phone contact context, like they're in a meeting and they can't pick up their phone. Right? Because if you want to look inside the brain, the short term reward system, you have these neuronal bundles that vote if they feel like the expected reward of a behavior is going to be high. They're not going to vote for picking up the phone if you're in the middle of a meeting with five people with your boss because it's measuring the benefit you'll get by seeing something interesting with the massive negative impact of your boss being like, like, are you looking at your phone like right in front of me while I'm trying to talk to you. So in a meeting we're not being drawn to pick up our phone because our mind is saying this is not. There's a low reward to that. But we're still as reported by Anonymous, having a hard time paying attention, drifting aloof like can't keep our mind focused. This is a sign, I guess I would say of the cognitive impacts of consumer non professional consumer digital attention economy tools moving to a new level of magnitude of pain, a new level of magnitude of negative impact that it's not just now. It's hard when I have my phone not to look at it. Like when I'm out to dinner with my friends. It's I'm beginning to permanently lose my ability to be comfort sustaining focus delaying gratification. Even if I can't look at the phone, I just can't do it anymore. So these worlds have now come together. So yeah, both of these again we have two different problems to solve. The phone problem really the only solution is you have to stop participating in the attention economy. I'm so tired. It's been a decade now of people trying to convince me that this is the. It's inevitable. It's the digital town square. We still hear these arguments today that if we don't let 12 year olds in Australia be on TikTok they won't be able to know about world events and all these type of things. But I'm so tired of that argument. It it's just a giant money making scheme that strip mines your mind to like allow Mark Zuckerberg to buy the second half of Kawhi. So we have to stop participating in that economy and you'll eventually gain back some of that cognitive patience. But then we still have to solve the email and Slack problem at work which is has to do with collaboration style. So it's a hard. Oh God, Jesse. There's a lot of hard challenges out there but I guess it gives me something to do. All right. So also as always towards the end of the show I like to discuss what I have been up to recently in my own quest to cultivate a deep life. So give you my update. First, people have been asking about this AI programmer project, so I'm not sure if you saw this Jesse. But last, well I guess it'll be two weeks ago now when this comes out. I sent out an email to my newsletter list saying if you're a computer programmer I want to hear how you're using AI. The good, the bad, what you love, what you hate, whatever it is I just want it. You're not using it all, you use it every day. I just want to hear about it because. Because there's a lot of discussion right now about cloud code and agentic AI and a lot of discussion's a little bit for someone like me who follows the industry closely and for a lot of people like programmers it's a little confusing the sudden attention because These sort of AI tools for programming have been big since before ChatGPT came out. The sort of autocomplete tab complete. We go way back, we go to cursor these sort of pre ChatGPT products. And then as I reported in January for the New Yorker, I did a lot of interviews with people who work on these programming agents, these command line interface agents like Claude Code. Those really started showing promise in 2024 and that's what allowed at the beginning of 2025. This was the article I published in January at the beginning of 2025 it led to all these tech leaders to say we're going to have agents in all parts of your Life this year. 2025 will be the year of the agents because we're seeing how good these are already working in programming. And then what happened is it turns out non programming agents are much harder and nothing really happened in 2025 but the computer programming agents continued to get better and about six months ago I guess it's just like a tipping point thing. There's a lot of programmers using these agents because they were good. It was the only thing agentic thing that was really working well in AI. But there's more. People started using them about six months ago with some of the latest updates. Claude code switching from opus to sonnet. There's like these little things got just good. Nothing big happened, no new technology was introduced. But just like these little changes happened where I think it became just easy enough that in more context people used them and also I think it's just a reporting thing people started talking about yeah, I'm using these agents, they're pretty cool. And then that got a lot of other people who hadn't been using them to use them. So there wasn't really a technological breakthrough six months ago but there was a awareness breakthrough within the wider world of these tools which had been like steadily they've been around for while a. Well anyways I wanted to know what's really going on. So I've heard from. I'm never going to get through this, Jesse. 350 people have sent me in detailed briefings and I'm Trying to go through them in detail, take notes. And I'm also coding them. How are you coding them? I'm coding the AI use of the person. So is it like from one extreme? Basically uses rarely or only occasionally uses any AI? Agentic uses rarely. All programmers now, now people understand AI. Completely changed programming in 2022. Everyone tab completes all sorts of things. Tab complete is where it'll finish the code that's right in front of what you're doing. Because it's like, oh, you start writing a function name and press tab and it'll finish the calls for you. And so everyone does that. But with agentic coding, it's like rarely uses it. Uses it for some types of situations but not for others. Like there's just depends on. Uses it for the majority of their coding. And then vibe coding, which is. So use it for the majority of their coding, but closely supervised, I should say. And then vibe coding, which is like the way Matt Schumer talked about in that article we talked about last week, where you're like, build this app and you come back later and it's built it and tested it. So I'm also like coding so I can keep statistics and just trying to keep track of notes and God, I'm through like 50. I've made it through 50 of the 350 people.

C (84:50)

Probably write a lot, right?

A (84:51)

Yeah. And I would say a good portion of them are written by AI, which is interesting. I mean the people disclose it. They're like, I'm not a very good writer. I wrote this by AI. So it's interesting. I much prefer the non AI written reports though, because AI, like you can see where it's just. It's so bland and just like summarizing. Like it's almost like Vibey. So I get better reports when they don't write the report by AI Anyways, that's ongoing and I don't know what to do with it. I just want to be more informed about it so that when we talk about these issues in the future, I know exactly what people are doing because there's so much room for hype and vibes as well as fear, dystopia and utopian rhetoric here that I want to be super grounded. It's really complicated though, so I don't have my arms around it yet. The main thing I can say is I think you have to think about there is for sure a new style of programming that is significantly spreading. 50% of the first 50 reports I've gone through are now largely using Agents to produce code under close supervision. Almost no one's Vibe coding. That's not really a thing. Vibe coding is fine if you're not a programmer and you need to build a quick web application to help organize your team, but that's like a separate thing. And these are all serious programmers. So there's like four of them so far doing anything that looks like Vibe coding, but half of them are and the other half aren't because it also turns out that it has to be a language and a type of thing on which is trained a lot for it to be good. So if you're trying to write advanced Rust code or something, it doesn't work well with that. It doesn't work well with Go. And it's a really new type of work where it's very interactive. A lot of like, okay, you're trying to converse with the agent, you're writing specs, and it checks the spec and doesn't understand what you like. All this, like, specification. You do all this work and then finally, like, okay, now build this piece. And then it builds that piece and then you test it and you let it write tests and you have it look at your test and then you fix things, you try again, and you kind of have this, like, supervising. Someone told me it's like supervising like a junior employee who's like a pretty good coder, but, like, super literal, and you have to really be on them. That's like, what it is right now. I think it's like a beta. We're in the beta phase of this. I think there's a core in here that's going to stick and increase the speed with which senior programmers make progress on what they're doing. I think there's a lot of other stuff that's surrounding it that's probably unnecessarily wasting time. And I think there's going to be new processes and procedures. There's going to be some things where we strip this back away from and other things where we keep it. So my main thing I can say now is way a lot of programmers are experimenting with this. A lot of programmers are spending most of their time experimenting with it and not actually doing their work. And it's a beta phase. And I think it's going to take six months till this shakes out, and then we see what. How this more permanently changes how certain types of programming happens. So I don't know that's what's going on.

C (87:50)

I listened to your Zitron interview, or.

A (87:52)

Oh, me on his show. Yeah, yeah. On his hater season. Yeah. What do you think?

C (87:57)

I liked it. I liked how you explained some stuff because I was confused and he explained it.

A (88:02)

I've been doing these videos. I might record another one today with my friend Rob Montz. We record him here in the studio, and he's like a philosophy brown Ivy League guy. So he plays the role of the smart person who doesn't understand technology, and then he sort of interrogates me on whatever's going on in AI. So you should check those videos out as well. Yeah, so I like those. Quick question before I get into what I've read and watched recently. Quick question for the audience. If you want to send this in to interestingalnewport.com I'm thinking I'm scared of this idea to hate new commitments, but I'm thinking because I'm under some pressure about this, about maybe having a standalone short podcast and newsletter just to do the AI reaction. So to keep this show and the newsletter kind of focused on what it's meant for, which is like helping individuals in their fight for depth and a distracted world. World. And then have a maybe on this feed or on its own feed, sort of like, here's like, what's in the news on AI this week. Let me give you my AI Realist take and then maybe like a newsletter version of it. I'm terrified of that work, but also I feel like I have a voice in this. That's important right now. I don't know. So if you have feedback. Samantha, interesting. Kellnewport.com all right, what did I read or watch? So we're recording this. Jesse, confirm we're recording this on February 24th. Plenty of days left in February. I have completed my fifth book for February. Yeah, baby. I read the Last Kings of Hollywood by Paul Fisher. My wife gave it to me. Again, maybe I mentioned this before. This is a book that was basically invented in a lab to be exactly what I want to read. The Rise of Spielberg, Lucas and Coppola. So obviously I love this book. All right, so that's my fifth book for February. I would go through them all, but I don't have the list with me. I forgot Lost Island Intensity, Last Kings of Hollywood, Lost Book of the Bible, the Hidden Book in the Bible, and Potentify. I said that. There's one other one I'm forgetting. Whatever.

C (90:04)

Oh, you said Lost Island.

A (90:05)

Yeah, I said Lost Island. Speaking of Lost Island, I did see in the podcast last week when I was talking about Lost Island, I don't know what the Hell, book cover you found? I guess it was a book with the same name.

C (90:17)

Is that a different one?

A (90:18)

Oh yeah. So I looked it up. You put up a book cover for it? It's a children's book. So the audience is like what the hell? There's a ver. There's a book called the Lost island that's aimed, it's said for the like 9 to 12 year old market and it's like kids exploring or whatever.

C (90:34)

So the other one must not be popular at all.

A (90:36)

It's old. It's like a decade old. Yeah, yeah. So no, I didn't read a kid's book in case people are wondering. I'm also watching things people want to hear about movies. After last week's episode. I watched the Smashing Machine which starring Dwayne Johnson. Dwayne Johnson was great. The filming was in that really confident, impressive standard Safdie style naturalism which I think is really impressive altier filmmaking. The movie though they couldn't find a core of the movie in the script. It was at least my opinion is it was like episodic and impressionistic but they struggled to actually have an arc or attention or you just kind of felt like you were in this person's life. And then they added in the sort of Emily Blunt, sort of like very cliche, not very interesting storyline of like there's his wife, she be crazy and it's a real problem for him. But then they make up again after they fight and like I guess that's his main villain was like overcoming his wife's craziness like there was no. It's like a beautifully crafted acted movie that they didn't have the core and I think that's why otherwise the pieces were great but it didn't. I don't think it came together.

C (91:41)

I'm going to watch that soon actually.

A (91:43)

Yeah, it's worth watching. Rock is great. It's really good acting. I also say he's huge.

C (91:49)

He's a moxer monster.

A (91:50)

He's like what, 85 years old? What does he know? Monster. We also watched Song Song Blue which was starring Hugh Jackman and Kate Hudson about dramatizing the life of a Neil diamond husband wife tribute band from the 90s and 2000s. You know, it was like parts of it were like a jukebox musical, right? Like it's very like good hearted and they're just like super happy and they're great singers and like singing Neil diamond and it's shot like a concert film those parts and it's really Nice. It was fine. It had to be edited. The problem is not to spoil too much. There's multiple tragedy beats in it. So it's like things are going well. Tragedy. Things are going well. Tragedy. And it's like they. They had to cover too much ground too quickly and to like, you're just as you're getting started. Like, I kind of like this kind of feel good, infectious Tupac musical. You get to that tragedy beat pretty quickly and you're like, I don't think I'm bought in enough into these characters to care. And then so again, I. It's one of these movies, like good. Not great, good components, but good components. But didn't all come together. All right, so that's what I was up to. I think that's it for this week.

C (93:03)

You. And there's a note here about you're finishing up the best picture nominees.

A (93:08)

Oh, yeah. So that's why we watched. That's why we were watching Train Dreams. Yeah. So my wife and I are trying to finish.

C (93:15)

That's the one where he's a tree cutter. Right? Yeah, I saw that. That was good.

A (93:19)

Yeah. Okay. I'm about halfway through. Yeah, beautifully shot. So we try to watch all the best picture nominees. We're pretty close. We are doing one exchange where there's one movie she saw I didn't and one I saw she didn't. We're going to count it for both. She didn't want to see Frankenstein, I didn't want to see Hamnet. And so we're kind of. We're still counting it. So we've got to see Train Dream still Secret Agent, which I'm looking forward to. And I think there's only one. Oh, sentimental value.

C (93:48)

All I can think about with the movie watching in our theme the last couple weeks is when you're talking, you're to take 30 minute breaks and read a article with three hour movies.

A (93:58)

I'm like, that's gonna take a long time. It doesn't take. It takes five minutes.

C (94:02)

No, no, I think it's fine.

A (94:03)

Yeah, you're right. The movies are pretty long. I love. That's what I do. And then.

C (94:07)

I've never tried it, but I want to try it eventually.

A (94:08)

Yeah, like re. Energizes you. It really makes a difference. And then you like learn a lot of film stuff. All right, anyways, enough of this nonsense. Let's. We'll call it for now. We'll be back next week with another episode. And until then, as always, stay deep.