Ep. 225 (Part 2 of 2) | In Part 2 of our eloquent, passionate, and humorous, dialogue with comedian John Fugelsang, author of the important and irreverent book, Separation of Church and Hate: A Sane Person’s Guide to Taking Back the Bible from Fundamentalists, Fascists, and Flock-Fleecing Frauds, we come to understand what fundamentalism is, and what it signifies for our culture, our politics, and our future. John outlines five common features that characterize fundamentalism across religious traditions, pointing out that fundamentalist Christians have more in common with fundamentalist Muslims than they do with moderate and liberal Christians. “I go after fundamentalists of all religions,” John says, “because it’s turning people off to faith—ruining Christianity, ruining Islam, ruining Judaism.” This is the tragedy for John and what fuels his passion for calling out the hypocrites who do hateful things in the name of religion.

John also enlightens us as to what Christian nationalism is all about, starting way back: “In the U.S., our history of Christianity is inseparable from our history of white supremacy.” Christian nationalism’s religion is power—a gospel of domination over love. Authoritarian leaders and their followers all worship power, he continues, and fills us in on how Christian nationalism is playing out in Russia now. John’s own message is not hateful; his intention is to make it clear that Jesus always taught love and kindness; to suggest that if the Church wants to survive, it needs to go back to the teachings of Jesus; and to help us come together in a common understanding of fundamental values. “It’s hard to love the bigot in your family,” John says. But we can “…hold to the deepest values, the most love, and do what needs to be done with love. We can’t hate the haters back, but we have to beat them without hating them—that’s the challenge.” Recorded December 18, 2025.

“The greatest tragedy to me is when people think that something is religion and don’t realize it’s just fundamentalism.”

Topics & Time Stamps – Part 2

Fundamentalist Christians have more in common with fundamentalist Muslims than they do with moderate & liberal Christians (00:39)
5 common features of fundamentalism across traditions: women are inferior, violence is okay, punishment over healing & a victimhood complex (00:51)
MLK was deeply unpopular at the time of his death—just like Jesus (03:43)
Every generation there’s a new word to smear the virtues of love, empathy & caring for others (05:01)
Christian nationalism: a gospel of domination over love (07:59)
Prosperity gospel: God will reward you if you give to our Church (09:50)
Christian nationalism in Russia (13:47)
Authoritarian leaders & followers all worship power (15:34)
If the Church wants to survive, they need to go back to the teachings of Jesus (17:28)
Recreating Jesus as a white guy led to centuries of racism and cruelty (19:55)
Using the Bible as camouflage: most people haven’t read it & figure others haven’t either (21:06)
What weirdness in the Bible stands out most for John? (26:02)
Growing up, it seemed normal that Christianity was about love & helping people who don’t look like you (29:45)
It’s hard to love the bigot in your family (30:58)
We can’t hate the haters back, but we have to beat them without hating them—that’s the challenge (33:04)
Abortion has redefined Christianity, but the Bible never mentions anything against it (34:35)

Resources & References – Part 2

John Fugelsang, Separation of Church and Hate: A Sane Person’s Guide to Taking Back the Bible from Fundamentalists, Fascists, and Flock-Fleecing Frauds
John Fugelsang’s SiriusXM show: Tell Me Everything
John Fugelsang’s podcast: The Sanity-Cast
King in the Wilderness, documentary about Martin Luther King focused on the final two years of his life
Jerry Falwell, televangelist & conservative activist
Freedom From Religion 2026 Convention
Prosperity theology
Matthew 25
Sharon Salzberg, renowned meditation teacher

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John Fugelsang is the author of the New York Times bestseller SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND HATE: A Sane Person’s Guide To Taking Back the Bible from Fundamentalists, Fascists, and Flock-Fleecing Frauds. He has been murdered on CSI and picketed by the Westboro Baptist Church. John is a Drama League–nominated actor, comedian, and broadcaster, who’s hosted many TV shows and podcasts, including the acclaimed Tell Me Everything series on SiriusXM Progress.

He got George Harrison to give his final performance on VH1, debated Jerry Falwell and David Duke, and made many appearances on MSNBC, FOX News, and CNN. His epic PBS road trip film on the American Dream, Dream On, directed by Roger Weisberg, was named Best Documentary at the New York Independent Film Festival. Fugelsang lives in New York City with his family.

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Podcast produced by Vanessa Santos and Show Notes by Heidi Mitchell