Be Salt and Light - Matthew S2E2

Summary

Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin

Episode: Be Salt and Light – Matthew S2E2
Date: February 16, 2026
Host: Pastor Joby Martin
Guest: Pastor Michael Olson

---

Episode Overview

This episode explores Jesus’ teaching on being the “salt of the earth” and “light of the world” (Matthew 5), diving into how Christian identity shapes our purpose, activity, and mission. Pastor Joby Martin and Pastor Michael Olson engage in a practical, honest, and sometimes humorous discussion on what it means to live out the calling of a disciple, the challenge of authentic self-evaluation, the role of motives, and the daily, relational aspects of following Jesus. Themes of grace, legacy, and the transforming love of the Father permeate the conversation.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Meaning of Salt and Light (02:19–05:58)

• Jesus’ Three Metaphors: Salt, Light, and City

  • All are about identity first: "You are the salt of the earth… You are the light of the world... a city on a hill" (02:19–02:30).
  • The Beatitudes and salt/light teaching are a single continuous message; don’t separate them (02:19–03:30).
  • The saltiest (most impactful) moments come “when your circumstances are hell and people are like, how are you upright?” (02:40–02:56)

• Application of the Gospel

  • The Beatitudes are the gospel, and the salt/light command is applying the gospel: “He didn’t just save you for you to be saved, he saved you so that you could be sent so that others might be saved.” (03:31–04:07)
  • Missions is a natural by-product of gospel identity—abnormal not to bear fruit.

• No Such Thing As a Fruitless Christian

  • "The Bible doesn't have a category for a fruitless Christian. It's like, what is that?" (05:08)
  • Being a nominal Christian with no mission is “a complete abnormality” (05:35–05:58)

  Notable Quote:

  “You’re the saltiest...when your circumstances are hell and people are like, how are you upright?...You have the biggest impact.”
  — Pastor Joby Martin, (02:32)

---

Christian Identity vs. Activity (05:58–08:38)

• Disciple vs. Christian Label

  • “The Bible only calls us Christians...three times. And one’s derogatory...But 168 times the Bible uses the phrase ‘in Christ.’” (06:08)
  • Anyone can use the label ‘Christian,’ so the real question: “Are you in Christ? Are you a disciple?” (06:30–07:25)

• Self-Evaluation and Fruitfulness

  • Self-evaluation is tough—most people struggle to see their own fruit.
  • Three “baskets” that cover the light: Pride, Fear, Comfort (08:01)
  • The impact seen in others’ lives is a better gauge than self-examination alone.

  Notable Quote:

  “It’s like other people or the impact you’re having are a better measure of your saltiness and your light than your own personal, like, navel-gazing evaluation.”
  — Guest/Contributor, (09:07)

---

The Role of Self-Examination and Community (08:46–16:27)

• Limits of Self-Judgment

  • “Can we actually judge ourselves? No. I feel like the worst.” (09:05)
  • Heavy conviction at home—hardest to be salt/light with family, despite vocational ministry success (09:23–11:39)
  • Discipleship is more about forward, Spirit-led motion than looking backward (11:39)

• Healthy Reflection vs. Obsessive Introspection

  • Biblical self-discovery aims to root out the “seeds of weeds” choking the fruit of the Spirit, not for blaming/excusing (13:23)
  • “You can’t stay there any longer than Jesus did in the grave… because we’re resurrection people.” (15:10)

• Community Encouragement

  • Importance of others reflecting God’s work in you—helps avoid discouragement or blindness (16:01)

---

Living as Salt and Light in the Everyday (16:27–24:05)

• From Study to Mission

  • Many believers never “come out of the salt shaker”—they accumulate knowledge but don’t apply it (16:27)
  • “The play is go and make disciples.” (17:18)

• The Original Audience’s Weighty Calling

  • Jesus told a tiny crowd they were “the light of the world”—this handful’s faithfulness is why the church endures today (17:31–18:28)
  • Jesus never waited for “critical mass”—he assigns the mission to whoever is present (18:28–19:29)

• Obedience and God’s Responsibility

  • “My responsibility is to do what he said to do, and he’s responsible for all the outcome.” (19:29)
  • Over-planning can paralyze—help one person now rather than wait for a massive ministry (20:05–22:05)

• Practical Living:

  • Salt only works when it leaves the saltshaker.
  • Christians should be obviously different in all professions and roles (23:01–24:05)

---

Motives: Letting Your Light Shine for God’s Glory (24:05–31:41)

• Motive is Everything

  • Difference between authentic witness (“so God gets the glory”) and religious activity for self-promotion (“so people see me”)
  • “If your motivation is self glory, you were actually at odds with God.” (24:23)

• Wrestling with Motives

  • Most people are somewhat blind to their motives, but those who never question them are most at risk (27:24–28:46)
  • Over-questioning can paralyze—there’s a sweet spot between purity and action (29:21–31:16)

• The “Basket” Over the Light

  • Excessive self-doubt or fear of self-promotion can become its own obstacle to letting your light shine (31:16–31:30)

  Notable Quote:

  "The pursuit of purity paralyzes you from actually doing what the King told you to do."
  — Pastor Joby Martin, (31:26)

---

Grace, Restoration, and Identity (31:41–35:00)

• Peter’s Restoration as a Model

  • If Peter “doesn’t get reinstated in John 21, I don’t think he does any of the things he does.” Jesus’ “do you love me?” questions restore, not scold, fueling Peter’s boldness (33:31–35:00)

  Notable Quote:

  “I know you’ve screwed up, but bro, you’re still salty and you’re not useless to me... The only way you’re going to be useless is if you don’t feed my sheep, feed my lambs, take care of my lambs. If you don’t do the thing that I assigned you to do, yeah, then you’re a train wreck. But I’m not done with you.”
  — Pastor Joby Martin, (33:31)

• Identity Spoken Into Us

  • “It’s like salt and light. If you don’t act this way, you’re not actually living out the identity of who you actually are, of who I’ve created you to be.” (35:00)

---

Law, Grace, and Motivation (37:03–50:16)

• Law as Map and Mirror

  • “If you see the law of God as a ball and chain, you’re not looking at it right.” (37:03)
  • Jesus fulfilled the law’s requirements for us—embrace grace and pursue God’s ways out of love, not legal obligation.

• Distinguishing Old and New Covenant

  • Every law cited in the New Testament is expected of Christians; Old Testament ritual laws fulfilled by Christ (47:08)
  • Legalism: elevating personal convictions to universal requirements (49:06)

• Healthy Christian “Aestheticism”

  • Holiness is not measured by how hard or joyless something is. The “holier = harder” mindset isn’t biblical (50:16)

  Notable Quote:

  “For a long time now...evangelical Christianity more or less has considered holy—the holiest thing to do is the hardest thing to do. And...that is a very dangerous way to think.”
  — Guest/Contributor, (50:16)

---

The Father’s Love, Performance, and Approval (51:58–60:59)

• Receiving the Father’s Love

  • Many struggle to feel God’s approval because of upbringing or church culture focused on “sin management” instead of grace (53:04–54:22)
  • The way earthly fathers treat children shapes how we perceive God (53:08)
  • “You stand by my side and you stood in my place worthy of your name—whatever it is about that line ruins me, man.” (54:22)

• The Gospel Restated

  • “When I get into, like, am I doing good enough? I get back to, well, you did. You took my place.” (54:43)
  • “And the answer is no, you’re not doing good enough. And [Jesus] took my place because he loves me.” (54:55)

• Living in the Approval of the Father

  • Experiencing and living from God’s “dad love” is transformational—whether earthly relationships were healthy or broken (57:23–58:14)
  • Joy and delight in children is a picture of God’s joy in us (59:59–60:59)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You’re the saltiest...when your circumstances are hell and people are like, how are you upright?...You have the biggest impact.”
  — Pastor Joby Martin, (02:32)

• “The Bible doesn’t have a category for a fruitless Christian. It’s like, what is that?” (05:08)

• “It’s like other people or the impact you’re having are a better measure of your saltiness and your light than your own personal, like, navel-gazing evaluation.”
  — Guest/Contributor, (09:07)

• “The pursuit of purity paralyzes you from actually doing what the King told you to do.”
  — Pastor Joby Martin, (31:26)

• “My responsibility is to do what he said to do, and he’s responsible for all the outcome.”
  — Guest/Contributor, (19:29)

• “If Peter doesn’t get reinstated in John 21, I don’t think he does any of the things he does. … Jesus’ question three times is, Do you love me?...I just want you to know that I know you do. So be salty.”
  — Pastor Joby Martin, (33:31–35:00)

---

Important Timestamps

• 02:19: Differences and overlap between salt, light, and city metaphors
• 08:01: The “three baskets” (pride, fear, comfort) that hinder our witness
• 17:18: Being salt and light means getting out of comfort and onto the field
• 24:05: Letting your light shine for God’s glory, not personal applause
• 31:26: How the pursuit of purity can paradoxically hinder obedience
• 33:31–35:00: Restoration of Peter and the importance of identity/mission
• 37:03: Law as map and mirror; how Christ fulfills the requirements
• 50:16: Legalism and the dangers of equating holiness with unnecessary difficulty/asceticism
• 53:04–54:22: Our perception of God shaped by earthly parents/church
• 60:59: “If we could get our mind around the Father celebrating us like that, we’d be salt and light in the city way better.”

---

Tone and Style

• Warm, honest, and practical—often humorous, occasionally deeply vulnerable
• Direct references to lived experience (e.g., parenting, ministry, self-doubt)
• Frequent use of everyday metaphors (sports, cooking, music)
• Equal parts theological depth and accessible illustration

---

Final Reflection

This episode offers a heartfelt, in-depth look at Jesus’ call to be salt and light—emphasizing identity, authentic mission, and relationship with God over performance. The candid conversation between pastors serves as a permission slip to step into our God-given role, wrestle with motives, and above all, operate from the secure love of the Father—a message as challenging as it is freeing for listeners seeking to deepen their relationship with Jesus.

---

Resource Mentions:

• Pastor Michael Olson’s book: “Daddy Set the Church on Fire”
  (Available at daddysetthechurchonfire.com and michaelcharlesolson.com)
• The Church of Eleven22: coe22.com

---

Transcript

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Welcome to Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin. The Church of 1122 is a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ. And we're praying this message helps you deepen your relationship with him. Now let's dive in.

[Host/Interviewer]

All right, welcome everybody. Welcome Pastor Michael Olson. Congratulations on your book.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Thank you.

[Host/Interviewer]

Daddy set the church on fire.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I saw a copy of it. Did you have one?

[Pastor Michael Olson]

I have one right here. Thanks for. Thanks for asking.

[Guest/Contributor]

Hold it up.

[Host/Interviewer]

We'll put. We'll put a link in the notes.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Not show notes. An arson.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Dad, that was funny. You know what's funny is that do people know who Jay Owen is? Jay Owen is a genius who works here, digital communications. He built a website for that book, www.daddysethechurchonfire.com. from an airplane seat at 35,000ft in about 25min.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Guest/Contributor]

For probably like $2 and 65 cents.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Amazing.

[Guest/Contributor]

It's amazing what he can do.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, I never travel alone. You guys know that. And I was preaching a conference, a men's conference, and I think I did two sessions or something. And after the first one, he was like, hey, just have people text the word men to 441122 and they'll get a free devotional resource from your content. And he just recorded it and then made it up, AI'd it out. And it was like a men's devotional. It's like seven day devotional follow up. I said, bro, this is pretty cool.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

We did miss an opportunity though, because we didn't sing this Little Light of Mine.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

No, it's that or there's still time for us here.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Right now.

[Host/Interviewer]

I would defer to you. Well, you want to get into this text. Thank you, Pastor, for the. The amazing word. I want to ask because when I read this with the salt and light section, those two metaphors.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Is it.

[Host/Interviewer]

Would. Would it be right to think about the salt as more about identity and the light as about a choice? Because what stood out to me there was it says, let your light, you know. So let's talk about the salt and light pericope and the differences there.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Well, I mean, there's three really, because there's salt, light and city. So he does say you are the salt of the earth, and then he says you are the light of the world. So I think the whole point is. But it's also right after blessed are you when you're getting your tail kicked by this world and we can't. I mean, so many times we teach the Beatitudes Then we stop, we come back and we'll eat well later and then we just start on the salt. And these are not two separate things. It's just one teaching straight through. Okay, so really you're the saltiest. You got the most eyes on you. When your circumstances are hell and people are like, how are you upright? You know, that's when you have the, the biggest impact. So I think they all three are identity first, this is who you are. Now there is crappy salt and it's worthless and it gets thrown out, you know, so there's a big fat warning there and there is a bushel covered light. So that's a problem. And then the city on the hill is what God told Israel it was to be. But at this point it is not being that. It's just like being a city unto itself, you know?

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So I think the whole point is the Beatitudes are the gospel. Now here's going to come the application of the Gospel that he didn't just save you for you to be saved, he saved you so that you could be sent so that others might be saved. And all throughout the teaching ministry of Jesus, he's going to circle back to this with the disciples over and over and over and over and over. Like he doesn't say, follow me and we're going to do a Bible study. Follow me and I'm going to teach you how to be a good Christian. Just follow me and I will make you fishers of men. This is that again.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

But I do think all of us have a. It's so easy. The moment you start talking about the activities that the King requires of us, bro, we just lose the gospel in one second. And you're like, am I being a good one? You're like, well, hold on, hold on. You were, you're adopted as a son, you know. And so you get this little sandwich here. It's like gospel activity gospel. Because then we're going into a whole bunch of. There's a it. All your activities should be different. The way you live, the way you treat people. And so I think that's why he's hammered down on your righteous activity will not make you righteous before the Lord. That makes sense.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yes, it is. It is so helpful to see it through that lens because another way to talk about the way or the three things he mentions is this is just what these things do.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Right?

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Salt is salt.

[Host/Interviewer]

Right. It's like, so when you are a new creation, when you are in the kingdom, this is what you do.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Right. And so if you're not, there's a problem. Like, the Bible has. It just doesn't have a category for a fruitless Christian. It's like, what is that? Yeah. I mean, Jesus is going to curse the fig tree. We're going to get there one day. And. And a part of it is like, what this is. This is abnormal. To be, like, a church attender and nominally claim to be a Christian but not be on mission for God. It's like a complete abnormality. Like, if you went to the doctor, he'd be like, whoa, whoa, you're defective. Something is majorly wrong here. It's like that. Which is so different than our world. I mean, the amount of people claiming to be Christians right now.

[Host/Interviewer]

It'S almost like you have to say, well, what do you mean by that?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

100%. I mean, don't you think.

[Guest/Contributor]

Don't you think that disciple. It's like disciple is the word we're going for here.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, the, the Bible only calls us Christians, I think, three times. And one's derogatory. I think that's right. And 168 times the Bible uses the phrase in Christ. How about this? Nick Fuentes, y' all know him, Know of, I've heard, and Don Lemon both claim to be Christians.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Okay?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So apparently anybody can use that label. These people don't think one. I mean, they don't. There's that. Okay, Then there's. But then it's like, but are you in Christ? You a follower of Jesus? Are you a disciple? Are you meek? Have you turned the reigns of your life over to Christ? You know what I mean? Now we're, now we're talking about what Jesus is talking about. Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

[Host/Interviewer]

I was talking with Pastor on, and we were talking about Africa and how if you're talking about spiritual warfare and you say the phrase, if you don't believe the devil's real, you're too dumb to talk to. He's like over there. You can't say if you're a believer, because that's everybody. Because you believe that God's real. And yeah, the devil's. He's like, it's, it's, it's kind of like what we're saying here. It's like, in Christ. Are you in Christ?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

Are you a, you know, a follower of Christ? So I want to ask about the non salty salt or the fruitless Christian. So help.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Help.

[Host/Interviewer]

Practically, because you said before also, like, man, I just thought I'd be So much further along. And I find in my own life, sometimes it's hard to see the fruit in my own life. So what are some ways that somebody could look at themselves and say, I think I am salty or I am growing in fruit and not get discouraged? Or when should you be discouraged and feel like maybe I'm not the salty salt?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Well, I gave. I gave three baskets that cover the light, right? One of them is pride. Like, I think I'm better than you. One of them's fear. I'm afraid of what people are going to think about me. And one of them is comfort. I don't even think about the application of the gospel to other people because I'm too busy just getting what I want for me. Binky, you spend all your life making disciples. Like, your self evaluation is probably not very good. I mean, think about it. What do you do all day? You do Bible stuff for people so that people can know Jesus and be sent. I mean, in that way you do for a living. So you're pretty salty.

[Host/Interviewer]

It's the royal eye, you know, like, so maybe somebody out there is wondering, you know, I was asking for them too, but thank you.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Well, so that.

[Guest/Contributor]

So I guess my question would be, can we, like, if you. If you go into self evaluation mode on that, do you have the. Do you have any remote possibility of actually providing yourself the objectivity? It's like, can you actually be a decent judge of yourself and should you spend any time on it?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

No, I'm the. I feel like the worst.

[Guest/Contributor]

It's kind of like leadership thing. It's like, how do you know if you're a leader? Look over your shoulder and see if anybody's right on you. It's like other people are in. The impact you're having are a better measure of your saltiness and your light than your own personal, like, navel gazing evaluation.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

I feel like.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Hold on. Okay. It's part of the reason I wanted to do his book in this sermon on salt and light is if I evaluated, how am I doing it? Making disciples vocationally. There's a bunch of boxes. I check. I mean, I'm.

[Guest/Contributor]

I do people say people taking steps.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I do. And I spend. That's all I do all day. I preach, I do a million podcasts, I write books. What else do I do? You know, whatever. So. But the thing that, like, challenged the crap out of me in your book, and this is where the end of the sermon goes. What about at home? Yeah, like, I'm. Dude, that's the first mirror I Hold up. And I go. And if it's true, which I do think it is, way more is caught than taught. What are my kids catching? You know, and they're doing pretty good right now. But that. That freaks me out. So my evaluation of me as a dad and a husband is like, uh, oh, my evaluation of me as far as, like, being a fisher of men at work, as a professor, you know, cool, right? But that's what I was talking about. Like, I'm salty as heck on a mission trip, dude. Or even just on a plane. I don't know. I am. And then I can just like, walk through my door and not apply any of it. I can just be lazy and think about me and wonder why everybody and why you asked me this question. I just preached on it two weeks ago or whatever, you know, and I'm. I'm highly convicted about that at home. And so the reason I wanted you to sing that song and point to this thing and the words that I quoted from you is like, it's exactly this, especially the way you talk about your dad's impact on you. You caught the fire. And you use the analogy of daddy set the church on fire, physically, he burned it down. But also he burned it down in worship all the time. And you learned that and you're trying to pass that on to your boys and they're young enough where you're just kind of like a lot of prayers. Fingers crossed. Hope it catches that. That's a big part, I think of this salt, light and hill is when you think, I'm trying to be a conduit of the grace of God. I'm not just looking at me, but I'm trying to. It's a big relay race. I mean, we're just trying to pass the baton.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Well, I also think that self evaluation is. Has a high percentage of leading you to, like, measuring yourself based on some things that are in your past or whatever, as opposed to, like, keeping in step with the spirit, which is kind of a progressive motion forward, you know, I think probably a good way to think about it is not some, like, a disciple probably doesn't spend a lot of time looking at their past and what they did as much as they're looking at the future and whether they're listening or not. You know what I mean? And I think the conviction of, like, am I doing this right for a disciple? Maybe it pushes them more into the posture of, do I have a sensitivity of heart to be listening to what God's telling me to do right now? And that's the value. You know, you say, like, what's your next step? Because if you're gonna follow Jesus, he's moving and he's gonna take you somewhere. So it's almost like. It's like discipleship doesn't really allow you to, like, look in the rearview mirror very much because it's progressively moving you forward. I don't know if that is true, but.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And Rebecca, I mean, she's a professional therapist, so she talks about this real good. But you guys both talk about this and what I think is a very, very helpful way. There's a significant role for a therapist to help give you tools to deal with things in your past so that you know how to rightly describe them, handle them, and move on in obedience to what Christ has for you. That's different than just like soaking in the therapeutic whirlpool of my own feelings all the time. For sure. These are two very different things.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah, it's what's growing, right? And so the, the point of, you know, self diagnostic is to find the seeds that are at the base of weeds that are growing in your life that are choking out or slowing the growth of the fruit of the spirit. Right. So love, joy, peace, patience, weeds can grow. And it's not love, it's self love. You know, it's not joy, it's discontent, it's not peace, it's impatience. It's, you know, these things are growing in our lives and they come from somewhere. And so that's, that's the work that it takes when you. What I think healthy biblical self discovery can be rooted in is not trying to find something to blame, not trying to find something to hold other people hostage to. Not trying to find something to excuse your behavior. Right. But trying to find the seed that's down at the core in your guts. That's like growing the weed that's choking out the abundant life that God's called you to live right now. And so I do think there's a place for it. But it's so. Because it's kind of like if you put salt, to use your example, Jesus example in yours, if you put salt on meat, but part of the meat is rot.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Guest/Contributor]

It doesn't matter how much salt you try to throw on it. Like when you get to bite that part, it's just. It's not going to taste good, you know, and it can make you sick. So you could run down a rabbit hole, the illustration. But I do think there's a time and place for. But I wouldn't even call it reflection. I mean, I think it's way more about self denial unto the glory of Christ. But in order to deny self, you actually have to do the work.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Like, know yourself.

[Guest/Contributor]

You have to know yourself.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Yeah, this is about. I mean, this is about a wound accessing, like, figure out you got one. Like, chances are if you're alive. I mean, I'm not trying to make an over, you know, generalization, but this is about a wound. And I make a statement in there. Like, the evaluation is good. Discovering your wound is good. It's like, it's kind of like busting of the poor in spirit. You got a starting place. I make a statement in there about, you can't stay there probably any longer than Jesus stayed in the grave because we're resurrection people. And so discovering your wound is a step in order to move into God's abundant life. And so, I mean, I don't know if it's three days or not, but it might be a good way to think about.

[Host/Interviewer]

Makes me think of encouragement, you know, like, how much we need to live in a community that helps us see the mirror of what God's doing in our lives. Like, when you. When you get around other people who say, you know, I see God, I see fruit in your life of this, you know, that it really frees you up from having to worry. You know, you should get it from God to your point, say, lord, am I. Am I on the path here and he's going to help you see it?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

But don't you think so many Christians and churches, though, are like. I mean, they're salty as heck. They just never apply it to anything. They're just in the salt shaker their whole life, you know, like, there's no application. There's no pushing back darkness. There's no sharing the gospel in evangelism. There's. They're just show up together and love each other and think that's it, and think I'm nailing it because I'm sinning less. And kind of the measure of my walk is I have less sin than I used to. And I know the Bible's so good, but somehow they don't. I mean, it's just like going. It's like doing film study and studying the playbook, but you never get on the field and actually run the play. The play is go and make disciples.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

So can you imagine? Okay, sometimes I think about this passage you preached on tonight. Can you imagine being one of the people? Okay. The church is not like, it's pretty early on.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

And how many people are listening to this?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I mean, there's a big crowd because he's been healing people. So great cloud. Great crowds have gathered.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Okay. But like, relatively, to the population of people that would call, like, post Constantine.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

He's saying this to this little group of people on a mountain, and he's saying you. Because it's not been said, it's been said. Israel. But they're. They're dropping the bag.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Correct.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

You know, and so it's not a new concept, but in terms of the inception of the church, there ain't no other group of people anywhere. It's this group of people right here. And he's pointing at them and saying, you are the light of the world. And there ain't no other thing happening out there. It's this community of people right here sitting on the side of this mountain that he's talking to. And if they didn't grapple with that reality, we ain't sitting here, dude.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

As you say that, it reminds me. So Jesus did not. He never fell into the trap of there. Like, once we get there, he never does that, so it's okay. You're exactly right. Couple thousand people. He's like, you're the light of the world, bro. They go to Cesarea Philippi in a few chapters at like 10, and he's going to be like, upon this rock, I'll build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. And they're standing at the gates of hell, and it's a big city. There's 12 dudes on a camping trip, and they're probably like, we can't pay our taxes. Like, what are you talking about? You know, by the time he's resurrecting, was there like 120 people there at the Ascension? And he's like, you take this gospel to the ends of the earth. Every tribe, tongue and nation, right? Every ethnos, people, group. And they're like, us, like, he never does the. Well, if we do this right and we can gather these resources by the next 12 months, then we might be there. There's none of that. He's just talking to the people in front of him saying, this is. This is your command.

[Guest/Contributor]

Don't you think it gets at the heart of obedience? Right? So there's. There's like multiple layers of motivation in regards to obedience. But when you think about the direct personal interchange between Jesus and the disciples, accessory of Philippi or these people, ultimately, if you run down the path Long enough of this thought. You're going to come to this place where you realize, wait, I'm responsible to him and he's responsible for everything. I'm just responsible to him. My responsibility is to do what he said to do, and he's responsible for all the outcome. You see what I'm saying?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

100%. What I find with the believers with really good hearts and really grand visions, the potential of what might happen prevents them from doing anything right now. I see it all the time, especially in ministries. Like, they've got these plans to change everything coast to coast or whatever, but they. They're not doing the thing right now, you know, like, they won't help every pastor in America, but they're not actually helping any yet.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Totally.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Maybe start with one or two or whatever, you know, I mean, a really great example in the positive. My friend Mike Draggage, you know, runs Project Xavier outdoors. Bro, what a humble guy.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

And.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And you wouldn't come across him and be like, oh, he's humble. I mean, he's a professional MMA fighter Marine, and he wrestles alligators. He's. He is the most aggressive human you've ever met.

[Guest/Contributor]

But he's a humble cat, though, bro.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Here's the thing. He asks questions, and then he just listens. He doesn't ask questions as a setup to tell me the thing that he's doing. And, and. And so one of the things I try to help with is just let's crush a few things as opposed to try to do everything. And you're. The things you're doing right now, you're crushing. So that's just like, one step at a time, one building block at a time. But I see a lot of Christians that they're. They wouldn't do what Jesus did. They wouldn't be like, you are the light of the world. They would be like, all right, I built this strategy to get the lights all connected to the strategic places. And, you know, and. But they don't ever actually do anything. Probably the advice I give to new, like, people called into ministry more than anything else is I just ask, so who are you discipling right now? When they tell me about this incredible call of God in their life to do all the things and how they want to, like, move here and work with us or do the internship, I just, like, give me the names of the people you're discipling right now. Because why in the world would God or us trust you to disciple people if you're. That's not what you're doing now.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

You know, there's a point in my life I was pretty sideways with a lot of questions, and I was talking to this really smart ministry guy and he said something in a counseling session that I later learned was a Eugene Peterson quote from the message. And he said, you are the equipment. And I was thinking about where I was doing ministry, and I had all these questions and heard over a thing and didn't know about what was next and all this kind of stuff. And he's like, you realize you are the equipment. Like, where you go, that's where God's gonna do the thing. Like, it's not necessarily circumstantially built on all these things that you're carrying around that you think need to be there for you to be able to do the thing that you're gonna do. He's like, ashley, when you go to that place and you are who God created you to be in that place, that's where it is. And I was like, ah, that's a hard thing to grapple with.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, I don't want to take the analogy too far, but salt does its job. As soon as it leaves the salt shaker, whether it's on food or it's on the driveway, so the ice, you know, whatever, it's not. And the, and the person with the salt in their hand, they get to decide where the salt goes. And when you have that attitude as a Jesus follower, you'll be perfectly positioned to do all kind of right things for him. You know, when it's like the hey, my yes is on the table. Here I am. Send me. And that's, that's why one of the reasons I went to the like, all right, if you're a stay at home mom, what kind are you? Are you just like all the other ones? Are you different? If you're a police officer, what kind are you? You know, because you should be different. If you're a CEO, is your company just like all the other companies? Because it shouldn't be. If you're a coach, I know everybody's got a scoreboard. If yours is the same as all the other coaches and you're supposed to be salt light in a city, then something's off, dude. And I think if we can get folks thinking that way, it would just be, it'd be, you know, very, very helpful.

[Host/Interviewer]

And if a little bit later Jesus is going to talk about prayer and he's saying, he says, don't do it to try to impress other people. So when he says, let your light shine so other people will see. Can you explain the difference between those two things?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Like it's motivation.

[Host/Interviewer]

Motivation.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Who do you want to get glory, you or God? So he does it in prayer and fasting and giving. If your motivation is self glory, you were actually at odds with God. Like you're trying to use God to be glorified. And God doesn't play well with idols. He smashes them. This is. We talked about this last week. The same activity can actually either warm God's heart or really stir his wrath. Take singing a song. Michael, you're crazy talented. And if your number one concern is what people think about you when you sing, bro, it ain't good. Preaching a sermon. Is God glorified? Now, God can use whatever, but if I'm trying to make much of me, that's. That's actually what the third commandment is. Don't use the Lord name and Lord's name in vain. Like if I'm using the Lord's name to build me a platform so people will think things about me. Whoa, whoa. Is me and any. All the pastors that do that, he.

[Guest/Contributor]

Might just give it to you, bro.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, that'd be the wrath of God, no question.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

The effects of that might not be immediate. It might actually walk out over time. But eventually it's God's grace, Romans 1, that would bring you to that spot of like realizing who you actually are under his grace. And the crushing might be the thing gets real big. You know what I mean? And yeah, that's a crazy thing. We were in a creative off site the other day and we were talking about Psalm 91. 91. And it was the one that. In the temptation narrative that.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, that's right.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Yeah. You remember what I'm talking about? And he's like, cast yourself down from this Temple Mount and he will command his angels concerning you. Won't strike your foot against a stone. And he's quoting the enemy's quoting the scriptures, which that if you go back and you unpack that psalm, it's all about God's initiative in caring for the people that he loves. And what the enemy is trying to do is get Jesus to proactively go do a thing to put God at his debt.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yep.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

And Jesus is like, I ain't doing.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah, that's a test.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

And I feel like that's the thing that you're talking about. Am I like going to do this? Am I going to sing this song, man? I'm up there singing up there. Am I going to do this thing? And leverage and, and make God work for me for my thing? That ain't going to happen, man. Are you going to open the Bible tonight and preach Matthew 5 to build some sort of platform for you to leverage for some other thing and put God in your debt? No way dude. That ain't the way it works. Like we work, we work under his authority, under his leadership and it's his grace that leads us in and he is the initiator. You know what I mean?

[Host/Interviewer]

Do you think, do you think the average person is super tuned in to their motive behind what they're doing?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Like, like so that's a brick question.

[Host/Interviewer]

Like okay, because you're saying motive is the thing. So do you think the person whose motive is wrong is thinking I'm trying to put God. They're not thinking that. So we must be blind to our motive.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I think people do think that.

[Host/Interviewer]

You think so.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I think people think I got a job interview tomorrow, I'm gonna give a little today or I mean honestly, all my preacher buddies will confess you sin a lot less on Saturday night because you know you're preaching Sunday morning and you're just like God, give me your favor, I need your help. And I'm not trying to do anything to jack it up. I mean it's like we are Romans 7 is a thing like your flesh is. And the devil's quoting Bible verses to you.

[Guest/Contributor]

I guess here's how I'd answer is I think people who have a healthy process or a healthy rhythm of questioning their motives. I don't worry too much about them.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

That's good.

[Guest/Contributor]

It's the people who don't ever question their motives that make me real nervous.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

That's really good man.

[Guest/Contributor]

So if you don't ever think about your motives into doing, doing a thing that makes me. Because you're just assuming that they're good and the hardest deceitfully wicked above all things.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Guest/Contributor]

See and so that's what I would say. I would say that I probably Olson and I could sit here for hours and just compare notes on who has spent more time questioning their own motives. Not, not like not me questioning him, but me question my own or him questioning.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

You can also.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And You2 are two of the most pure hearted trying to get it right for the glory of God pastors I've ever met in my home.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

But you can also, you can also, you know every stretch road has a know ditches on either side. You can also put yourself on in the middle of the story so much.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Totally.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Like I've questioned myself so much. And then on the flip side of like all the wrestling matches and how hard I've made life on myself, you know, to question this or that and made life hard on everybody else, you're like, oh my God, I just did it in the other direction.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

The number one thing I've tried to disciple you in is he's a good dad and he loves to give good gifts to his kids. Yeah. And you have the. It's like it's hard for you, right? Like, it is because you, you're. You're like drive for doxological purity. Is that. And sometimes you won't let yourself get off the mat.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

You know what I mean?

[Pastor Michael Olson]

What's really.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Now the other thing is there's a whole group of people, they need to know that like, yeah, God also disciplines those he loves because they're like, nah, just look at the lightning. He's taking my picture. You know, that kind of dumb stuff and that' all they think there's those kind of people too.

[Host/Interviewer]

You don't really say that. Do they say that?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Oh, do people say that? Bro, you don't read enough like in their hearts. Christian devotionals.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Yeah.

[Guest/Contributor]

I think that, I think the motives is motivation is because we're in a love. Not to overuse a metaphor, but we're in a love game here. Like this is a love relationship. And what is the measure of love other than the outworking of motivation? Like, I think that's just what it is. And so to. To spend time trying your best to take captive of every thought and surrender that unto the lordship of Jesus Christ you can fall into the ditch of like paralysis almost of like, I so don't trust my motives in this. That I want to run away from anything that would tempt me to capitalize on an unhealthy motive. That's probably more myo is that I just want to stay away from it.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And that's a basket over the light, that salt. Not in the salt shaker.

[Guest/Contributor]

That's the, that's the basket thing. It's an inverted like pervert pride kind of thing.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

The pursuit of purity paralyzes you from actually doing what the King sold you to do.

[Guest/Contributor]

Exactly. Exactly. That. That's one part of it. And the other part of it, you know, there's another side you just don't. Again, you just assume upon because I'm the one doing it. It must be good and it must be right.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

And it's like, I wonder what it was like for Peter post Pentecost knowing all the crap that he had done and been through and the denial and the feed my sheep thing and the, you know, the reinstatement and all that stuff. Standing up on the eastern steps, just letting her rip under the. I'm going to use the word that I grew up with, unction of the Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit and just going for it, man. And he knew, I mean you talk about in your world, mosquito on a. Whatever freight train, but he just knew who he was and who he wasn't, what he had to offer and what he didn't. And probably at that point it really didn't seem to matter very much, you know what I mean? In the outworking of what the spirit of God was doing in the church. And his mouth was open for sure.

[Guest/Contributor]

You know, I think some, a couple of things are at play there, right? One is the church historically has flourished under persecution, starting with the first one Y. Peter's up there slinging it on the steps. And it very well could have cost him his life. I mean he. It wasn't that long ago that it. They actually killed Jesus.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Correct. 50 days and then in.

[Guest/Contributor]

But then he saw Jesus resurrected.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Two chapters, he's going to prison.

[Guest/Contributor]

So that's a heck of a courage builder to see a dead man come back to life. You know, that, that one. And then, and then I also think that there's a little bit of like, because of the courage in it and there's a youthful angst in those guys and there's a. I think they just were going for broke, man. I mean, when you got, when you got like, there's nothing in their world by which would ever could be, could ever be comfortable again because of what they'd seen and heard. There's just no appetite for comfort because it was impossible.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

But I don't think if Peter doesn't get reinstated in John 21, I don't think he does any of the things he does. And so if you lay this chapter Matthew 5 over 21 and added to the conversation just to double down on some language, it's almost like what Jesus is saying is, hey man, I know you've screwed up, but bro, you're still salty and you're not useless to me. The only way you're going to be useless is if you don't feed my sheep, feed my lambs, take care of my lambs. If you don't do the thing that I've assigned you to do, yeah, then you're a train wreck, but I'm not done with you. And that reinstatement changes everything with the resurrected Christ. So that's. That's not just like a good pep talk, right? But there's something about that. And also the thing that gets me about this one as a leader and a vision caster and all that. If one of. If. If somebody on our team screwed up three times, I don't think my lead question is, do you love me? I think it would be like, hey, you know you screwed up, right? Like, can we admit this and promise you won't do it again? Because you said this is like a love game. Jesus's question three times is, do you love me? He's like, you know I do. And I think she's like, I know you do. I just want you to know that I know you do. So be salty. Feed my lambs. Take care of my sheep. Feed my sheep. That's what he says.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

One of my favorite movies of all time is the movie Hook. And you know, it's. It's the story of this. It's off of Peter Pan, but it's this like, you know, all grown up attorney Peter Panning Robin Williams. And he tries to go back to rescue his kids and he's this old guy and. And he's lost his identity as Peter Pan, right? And the Lost boys are all these little kids and they're trying to figure out who he is or to help him figure out who he is, you know, and there's this awesome scene where he's like, his face is down with one of these little kids and. And he like takes his hands to his wrinkly face and pushes him back to see his face. And he goes, oh, there you are, Peter. And it was like he was like speaking the identity of who he actually was out. It's kind of like what Jesus is saying to Peter. He's like, don't you know who you are? Don't you know who I've made you to be? It's like. It's like salt and light. It's like if you don't act this way, you're not actually living out the identity of who you actually are, of who I've created you to be. You gotta step into that thing, man, because that's actually who you are underneath the authority that I've placed on you. You know what I mean? And I'm a huge. I'm a huge Hook fan, so it'll get me going every time.

[Host/Interviewer]

It is a great movie.

[Guest/Contributor]

Dustin hoffman, hook.

[Host/Interviewer]

Stop, Mr. Stop me. Fancy theological word is antinomianism. And it is the heresy that as a Christian, you don't have to follow any laws or any rules in the Bible. So what is it? What does it really mean? What would it look like if Jesus actually did abolish the laws? And what does it mean in. In contrast, that he fulfills them.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

We talked about this a lot last week. If you see the law of God as a ball and chain, you're not looking at it right. Because the way David saw the law of God, he meditated upon it day and night. He cherished it. He would, like, snuggle with it, memorize it, you know, because the law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul. And the law is just simply living in God's world, God's way, and it always goes better. But Jesus is also. So he's simultaneously saying, I came to fulfill the law every jot and tittle. And the earth will burn down before this word burns down. Like, America will not be a country anymore. The word will still be the word. This is what this means. And he's like, but I came not to abolish it, but to fulfill it. And the fulfillment of the law would make you righteous. You would have a right standing before God. And since you can't pull that off on your own, I'm going to do it for you. So Paul in Galatians would say, an example would be, the law is like a good babysitter. So the law is going to put some guardrails around your life so you don't burn the whole thing down until dad gets home. The law is also the kind of babysitter that points out you need a babysitter because you're going to screw up. And so the way. I mean, we've done. We've talked about this several times. The law is both a map and a mirror. That's a great way to think about it. It'll. It'll help you navigate life in the world that God created. And then it's a mirror to realize I need a navigation system. I need somebody to actually take over the wheel here, because I keep. Wreck it into the ditch.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah, I think the thing that often gets missed or just gets left out when we talk about Jesus being the perfect, atoning, sinless sacrifice. That Jesus never sinned is. Goes back to the question about motivation. What it doesn't mean that he fulfilled the law and doesn't abolish it. It means that he didn't sin and he didn't want to. That's the key, is that Jesus didn't want to sin. I'M not saying he wasn't tempted. He was tempted, but he didn't want anything but the Father's will. He wanted the Father's will accomplished. He was single minded in that obedience, which is that desire from the inside out that worked its way out in him physically and legally, never breaking a law. Therefore, he lived sinlessly. But it started on the desire level. So to say Jesus never sinned is to say he just didn't want. He didn't want to sin and he.

[Host/Interviewer]

Didn'T do it between wanting and temptation. I'm confused when you say that. Like, what's the difference between being tempted and wanting? Isn't that the same thing?

[Guest/Contributor]

I. I don't think so. I don't think so because I think that there's.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

No. I get exactly what you mean. And it may be a little bit of semantics, but Jesus say, all I do is what he tells me and all I say is what he tells me. But he does it from a place of identity. He's not doing it so that he can be the Son of God. He is the Son of God, so this is how he acts.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

We just studied, we're in my disciple group. I'm with these great guys and we were going through First John a little bit. And there's this in the first, I think it's chapter two. He's talking about walking in the light and all this kind of stuff. And, and he says, whoever, you know, they'll walk as Jesus walked. And immediately our minds go, son of a gun, I'm screwed. And then you're like, well, if Jesus did this, you know, he fed the people on the hillside with loaves and fishes and he healed the guy, the thing and you know, all this kind of stuff, and that's immediately we go to. Is the exterior outcome of that. And that's how we want to measure our own redemption. Well, we will walk as Jesus walked. We should be able to do all this stuff. How did Jesus walk? Completely connected to his Father all the time. That's how Jesus walked. And the outgrowth of that was all this stuff. But he never, he never did anything not connected to his Father because his desire was for his Father all the time. And that's where the fruit came from. But isn't it funny how if we read that verse, we immediately diagnose ourselves by activity? We go, man, okay, walk as Jesus walked. Well, how's that? That's impossible. Well, not if you're just in a love relationship with God all the time. Not if you're abiding in him and bearing much fruit all the time. Jesus never did anything that the Father didn't tell him to do. And actually, there's a bunch of people that were walking around that there was a bunch of lepers probably all around. You know what I mean? Not all of them got healed, but the ones that the Father did say, not one of them did. He didn't get healed, right?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Correct.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

And he was just operating in the will of his Father all of the time. All the time.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

What's that. What's that Puritan line about a greater affection? Expuls.

[Guest/Contributor]

I've been seized by the power of a great affection. That's what they would say when someone became a Christian, that they have now been seized by the power of a great affection.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

It's kind of like Pastor Kwan's illustration that if you know what you're doing at a buffet, it's easy to pass the junk at the front because, you know the best stuff's at the back.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Professional eater, you know what I mean?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

It's. You ever make a dumb decision at the grocery store because you went in hungry?

[Guest/Contributor]

I'm the worst.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

You make. Don't you make great decisions if you go in there full? So when you taste and see that the Lord is good, the temptation of this world is strangely dim. Right. Turn my eyes upon Jesus. This is true. When you're abiding in him, then what's got to happen? Okay, so James says God can't be tempted, but Matthew says that Jesus was tempted by the devil. So we might need to do a Greek study real quick. But then James does a deep dive on desire and will. And we know that Christ's only desire was not to feed his flesh or to feed his eyes or to feed his pride. His desire was to do the will of the Father. So his temptation, though the offer was made. It's not temptation like me. And you are tempted because our flesh, our sinful, inherited flesh, of which he inherited no sinful flesh because he is the Son of God, not the Son of Adam. So we're at a desire level. We're at a different thing. We're not the same opera. It's not the same operating system. So even though he was tempted in every way, that means he had all the opportunities to. But not the same desires that we have to say, forget you, God. I got this. Jesus never said that. Jesus always said, that's above my pay grade. I'm gonna do what my father tells me. And so that's how it's fundamentally different.

[Guest/Contributor]

What he said.

[Host/Interviewer]

I liked what you said.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I want to use the Bible as commentary into itself. Let the Bible define its own terms.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Good idea.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Before, you know, we get into, like, yeah, some other preacher we've heard or something.

[Host/Interviewer]

I like when you said, when you were talking about fulfilling the law, he said, I am giving you a new commandment. I'm. But I'm not telling you that none of this other stuff matters.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So here's the thing to understand about this. Okay? So there were lots of commandments that were foreshadowing of what God would do. They're almost all just cleanliness. How to stay ritually clean, how to stay, like in your own life, pure before the Lord, and how to be pure with one another. Well, Jesus fulfills the ritual one. So, I mean, we don't have to do those things anymore because you don't. When the substance is there, you don't need the shadow anymore. But, but the, but the. I mean, the law of the Lord is precious. Reviving the soul, that's the purpose of the law. Now, a big thing that you'll see in Galatians and Paul talks about a lot. And Jesus talks about this too when he answers, so what's the greatest commandment? And it's basically like, if you just love God and love people, you actually don't need any of the details of what the laws say, because you're not going to worship idols. You're not going to steal from people that you love. You're not going to sleep with people that you love's wife. You're not going to be jealous of people that you love. You're going to be. You're going to promote them. If you love God, you're not going to dishonor his name. You're not going to worship. You know what I'm saying? And so because the new command, I mean, think about it like, the disciples are sitting around. He's given his last discourse. He's told him like three times, he's leaving. They're like, are you sure? And he's like, all right, a new command I give you. And they're like, oh, so Matthew, write this down, John, jot this down. Love one another. You're like, that's not new. You've been saying it. But then he does add this. As I have loved you. That's the new part, right? So this is relentlessly and unconditionally. This is not legalistically, because that's kind of what it did turn to by then, you know, and that was it. But, but that's, I mean, this is why the Bible say above all else, love compels us to live this way. And I try to explain it because it gets hard because the moment you start talking about activity, our motivations get to performance instead of from approval.

[Host/Interviewer]

Can you talk a little bit more about that? Because I've gotten that question many times about how to know the difference between which laws to follow and which laws were fulfilled in Christ. Like, and even if you're talking to someone who's a critic, they might say, well, you cut your sideburns or you have a tattoo or. And isn't that in the Bible? Or don't you if you believe it's all true? You know what I mean? Like, that can be an area of confusion for some people.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So they are called the Old and New Testament for a reason. And testament and covenant mean the same thing. Okay, so every rule slash law mentioned directly in the New Testament, you for sure should do that. So a bunch of these things he talks about, like tithing is one of them, right? These things you ought to do. But the way, I mean, but Jesus fulfills the requirement of the old covenant, which is a covenant of law. This is, this is epistle language. And gives us a new and better covenant, which is a covenant of grace. And so the ritualistic laws, you can also see too rarely. Jesus never got in trouble for breaking a commandment. He broke the rules. The Pharisees had written about the commandments. It didn't say you can't pick grain. They made that part up. It said, honor the Sabbath and keep it holy. Well, he was keeping it holy. He says, you can get your ox out of the ditch and I can feed my disciples. What's the difference? But they had set up some man made rules, which actually goes all the way back to Eve when, when the devil's like, did God really say. He said, well actually we can eat of any tree except that one, and even if we touch it, we'll die. He never said the touch it part. That's classic legalism. I'm going to add to it.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Like, you know what he was doing when he was picking grain? Loving God right while he was doing it.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

He actually. And then when they get mad at him, he's like, oh, you ain't read about David? Yeah, David ate the show bread. He didn't get in trouble. The fact that the Pharisees would try to juke Jesus is hilarious.

[Host/Interviewer]

And what's al. What's hilarious is that they're conspiring murder Openly in the name of trying to honor and please God.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

They're like, you don't wash your hands. You got a dirty heart.

[Host/Interviewer]

Figure out how to kill him. He's disobeying the Sabbath.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Yeah, it's pretty twisted.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I will tell you, though, when people argue about this, I think what makes a legalist illegalist is when from the. If I give as much grace as possible, what is wisdom for me? I make a requirement for salvation for you. That's a true legalist. So Paul talks about this. He's like, hey, food sacrifice to idols. Can you eat it or not? And they're like, well, I ain't trying to eat that demon meat and be like, okay, then don't. The next guy's like, what you talking about? Jesus has put every demon to shame. And those demons aren't even real. Those are fake. That's just meat that this guy does some hocus pocus on it. And it's good. It's like, cool. Eat it, y'. All. Quit fighting about it. And the stronger one, who's the one eating the meat? See, that's the way it gets played in the church today. We think the Holy One is the one that, like, doesn't do Halloween or doesn't watch that movie. You know what I mean? Paul actually sets it up the other way. The one most mature in your faith is the one that actually has the freedom. Just don't use your freedom as a stumbling block for others, man.

[Guest/Contributor]

I just read this article the other day that was talking about. We'll put it in the show notes the. But it was talking about how all. For a long time now, Christian evangelical Christianity more or less has considered holy. The holiest thing to do is the hardest thing to do. And how that is a very dangerous thing to do and a very dangerous way to think. So it's like the less you enjoy something, the holier you are. It's called aestheticism, and it's super dangerous. Very narrow way to look at the abundance of what it is to live the life that God's called you to live.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So this is why Dr. Piper is such a gift.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Yeah, the desire thing.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Because joy and from an outside physical. He ain't chasing nothing in this world, bro.

[Guest/Contributor]

No, man, just tweet jacket.

[Host/Interviewer]

The same tweed jacket for like.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Right. Gives it all away. Totally.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

It's amazing how everybody immediately went to tweed jacket, bro.

[Guest/Contributor]

He's got one of the. The one of the most visited websites ever. He's sold who knows how many books and never taken a dime for It Correct.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I mean, want to.

[Guest/Contributor]

This guy's walking. He's living simple life.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah. He's the guy. And he talks about reward more than anybody else. It's just rightly aimed at desiring God. But what a lot of us can do is you hear the false prosperity preachers, and we throw the baby out of the bathwater. I don't know where that phrase came from. But you do. You throw out how much God wants to reward you. And he's good, dad. He wants to lavish you with love. And, you know, like I said tonight, do you know the kiss of the Father?

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Do you think this comes from a doctrinal place where, like the way people view creation as inherently good or bad? At the very beginning, like when God created things, he looked at it and he said, it's good. You know what I mean? And then there's Genesis 3. And, you know, because I struggle with this, I grew up in a pretty legalistic Pentecostal holiness environment. There's a lot of things that you're afraid of. I gave my heart to the Lord a million times at night out of fear, you know, like this kind of thing. And one of the things that I feel like I've had to grow in is seeing the goodness of God and giving myself permission to enjoy the. The gift, the. The kiss of the Father. And if you, if you believe that, that things are inherently bad all around, everywhere, all the time, and that God's not, you know what I mean, the way what he created is not good and to be enjoyed, then you, you're kind of moving yourself to the middle there too, because you. Everything's dependent on you and your behavior and what you do or don't do all the time.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Well, can I make it worse?

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Sure.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

With your book sitting right here. The primary view our children have of God will be the way we reflect it. That's it, dude. The primary view. Unless God supernaturally intervenes, and that's going to be the exception. But your voice, your attitude, your face towards your kids, like if you. Most of the time we say our kids names in a negative, like, I busted you kind of way.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And then you hear God calls your name. That's what that sounds like to them. Like, oh, God, he called me.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

You know what I mean, dude? That's something, isn't it? For sure. And so it's all the way back to both of you talking about. You use different words. You talking about getting to the wound, and you talked about getting to the root. I think a whole lot of the way we see God is like, how we were raised. Not just our mom and dad, but also like, early experiences at church, what we were taught. Because I. It was just all behavioral modification. It was just all sin management and these. Church is really trying to do a good job, but. And it's hard to shake, man.

[Guest/Contributor]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

But, dude, there's some stuff that just, like tonight, I know it's kind of a fast song, but that you. You stand by my side and you stood in my place worthy of your name. Whatever it is about that line ruins me, man. You know?

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Yeah.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So when I get into, like, am I doing good enough? I get back to, well, you did. You took my place. So then, yeah.

[Guest/Contributor]

And the answer is no, you worked. You're not doing good enough. And you took my place because you left me.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And he's like, you know, I've told the story 10,000 times about the kids scooping the sand up in his hat on the baseball field, but just. I was losing my mind because they're trying to win. But his mom was like, look at him. I think about that dude. You know how ridiculous we look to the. How about this? To the. To the cloud of witnesses. Like I said tonight, can you imagine trying to describe to Paul while you're timid and sharing your faith, maybe, like, what, they're gonna feed you, the lions? Nah, just. It's a little awkward. Like, what. And yet the heavenly father's pump, bro. Just like you are when your kid does anything, just because you're your kid. And so his. His. The lenses by which he sees us are tainted with the blood of Christ and he just loves us. Yeah.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

One of the things, and I mean, tonight it was something I had. A guy from my disciple group actually came up to me after, and he knows me and some stuff pretty good. You know, we've been walking together for a couple years now, and he was like. He got all like, you know, there was this light that was coming down around your shoulders, you know, as you were playing that song. And I swear it was your dad and Jesus standing right next to him, just saying, that's it. And that's actually what I say in there, is that it's made a huge difference to me. You know, if you get into that book, you realize it is a pretty painful journey. And we lost my dad 10 years ago, and it was not good. Right. But in the midst of the mess, my dad knew the Lord, right? And the reality is he's with Christ right now on zero merit of his own. And it Never cost any way. And even in his brokenness, he invested in me. And it is true that it's all grace. It's all grace. And I think it's hard to grapple with that in the moment when you're in it now. But living in the approval of your father, probably both earthly and heavenly, makes a big difference. You tell a lot of great stories, man, about gifts your dad gave you, you know, and, you know, motorcycles and grandma and Christmas and, you know what I'm saying?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

My, you know, one of the greatest reliefs of my life is my dad got saved.

[Guest/Contributor]

Amen.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I used to, I mean, I still obviously crap the day he goes to be with the Lord, but it ain't like it was at all. You know what I mean? We, I mean, we just. I call him, I try to call him about once a week, and we just chat, dude. And he is, he's so proud of me and Russ, like in the purest dad way. Think about this. Your dad's the only human being that wants you to outdo him. Isn't that true? I mean, everybody else is for you, as long as they can, quite emotionally, you know, whatever. But your dad isn't. Your dad is like, it's like a. And your mom, too, but, you know, they're better. But your dad just. And so the way this whole thing starts, though, she's standing in the water before he ever does anything. God says, behold my son, in whom I'm well pleased.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

I, I hadn't experienced this over the last couple weeks. My son is a really gifted runner, and it's indoor track season. He's bouncing back from an injury and all this stuff, and he had two, three successive meets back to back. I'm proud, dad. In it right now, hard.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So let's go, dad, brag. I love it.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Yeah. So. So he, he ran. He's running the 800 and he's, he's wicked fast, you know. So the first two weekends his races were on Sunday mornings, and it's not like it was a major meet. So I was here, I was doing the thing on Sunday, and I got his times and he ran okay. And then he ran slightly less the weekend after. And he was bummed. I knew, I knew it. He was bummed. And then his coach was going to pull him from that race just to get his mind out of it, to run a shorter race. But I was able to go to the, the third one, it was on a Saturday, and I, I, I twisted his arm. I said, hey, man, would you. For me, it's up to your coach. Up to you and your coach. Would you consider running the 800 again? Just because I can see it. And they put him in last second. And he beat. I was just freaking yelling like a crazy man on the side of the track running. He beat his time by over two seconds.

[Host/Interviewer]

Wow.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

In the 800. And I was talking to Josh Gervais, who discipled your kid today, and he said, that's what the difference makes right there.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

That's it.

[Host/Interviewer]

And.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

And. And forgive me, Mo. I. In my mind, it's burnt. After he. After he did it, he was standing in the middle of this 200 meter track in Alachua county in Gainesville. And after he finished, he got down in the middle with all the guys that running. He looked over me and he went, let's go. And I just went. I just freaking lost it, you know, I'm like, this is the stuff, man. This is the stuff, dude.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I love a dad brag because it's one of the purest forms of love. Your youngest had a walk off. And the fact that you would send me that video, I bet I watched it eight times because I was. Because all you did is say she, you know, hit a walk off. It's a home run too, man. And so I watched. I'm pumped for you. She's playing on the field that we used to play on. So that's like. That's a thing. Like the scoreboard says 11:22 on it. We're into that. And I'm so. It's like I celebrate it for its own merit to begin with. Then I celebrate it for you. Then I look at it again to try to see how many people are on base. And then I try to listen to the crowd. I listen, I hear Jen's voice. You know what I mean? That's one of the purest forms, is just that dad brag. And I got it bad. I mean, you know, I've shown everybody videos of all the things, but. But that's it. And so if we could get our mind around the Father celebrating us like that, we'd be salt and light in the city. Way better.

[Host/Interviewer]

Mm.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

It's a good word.

[Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. Yeah. Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you'll never enter the kingdom of heaven. And I think what I heard tonight is there's good news.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yep.

[Host/Interviewer]

Because in me it does.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah. Michael, where can people get your book?

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Well, man, j. Owen built www.daddysethechurchonfire.com, which is really great. He also Built a personal website for me, michaelcharleswilson.com by the way, the reason why that Charles is In there is two reasons. One, there's a guy that has michaelwilson.com and he wanted me to pay him a lot of money for it and I want to do it. Second is Charles is my dad's middle name.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Oh, that's cool.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

And I thought about it and I thought that's good. Yeah, that's good. So michaelcharlesolson.com is a thing and all the music stuff is on there too. I'm releasing an EP of original singer songwriter songs which are really good. I'm so. I'm really excited about that. It's one of the coolest records I've ever been a part of in my life. It's great. So that's great. And I would love for you to come. I don't know, it's probably after this.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Will air after that it'll come out Monday morning. Yeah.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

So it's day of come tonight to the thing at San Pablo at 6:30.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I'll be there.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

It'll be a party. It'll be a lot of fun.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

I'll be there.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Yeah. Thank you for.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

And then also in the lobby. Right. We're selling them in the lobby of our camp.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

A.B. absolutely. Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

It's good read, man.

[Guest/Contributor]

And everywhere else you can buy books.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Yep. They're going to delay the release to retailers a little bit, but not much. I think March 1st it's going to go out. But Amazon, I mean everybody buys y. It's all there.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So well done, dude. Writing a book's a thing. It's hard and there's a lot against it.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

Yeah.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

So for it to be. Actually it's a. It's crazy, isn't it, when it finally shows up.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

You know, the first time I had the idea to write that book was 20 years ago and the story wasn't any near fleshed out, you know. But I had a conversation. I was a recording artist at the time and I had a conversation with my manager and I said, man, I have this idea for this book. So it's why it's a wild thing. It was about three years. Three years in that. Which. What. What do you do for three years? Go to college or something?

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Well, one of the neatest things, all good things take.

[Guest/Contributor]

Take time.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

No doubt about being a dad and an author is your kids have a tangible copy of your words and thoughts.

[Pastor Michael Olson]

This is tomorrow night. Tomorrow night we're having dinner at my house and I have three copies of that book. And we're going to make dinner for Mom. It's Valentine's Day weekend. We're going to make dinner for mom together. And at dinner, I'm going to say, boys, this is a gift for you and. And the music, too. So I agree. I agree with you.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Yeah. Let's pray. Our good and gracious heavenly Father, when Jesus taught us to pray, he taught us to call you Father because that's just who you are. And so, God, as three dads that get to borrow your title, we thank you that you are a good, good father. It's just who you are. And Lord, I pray that you would give us all eyes to see ourselves as children that are loved by you. Pray in Jesus name.

[Guest/Contributor]

Amen.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Thank you for listening to the podcast the End. You nailed it.

The reality is everything already belongs to God. And when we give financially, we're acknowledging that we trust him. If you just watch this and feel led to make a donation, text the word donate to 441-122 or visit coe22.com donate your generosity is not only an act of worship, but an investment so all people can discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus.