Do You Really Know Jesus? - Matthew S2E6

Summary

Podcast Summary: Do You Really Know Jesus?

Podcast: Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin
Host: Pastor Joby Martin
Episode: Matthew S2E6
Date: March 16, 2026
Main Theme: Living with authentic faith, the assurance of salvation, and discerning the difference between genuine relationship with Jesus and cultural Christianity, as reflected through the final teachings of Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount.

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the heavy burdens of pastoral ministry—especially the responsibility of helping people discern whether they truly know Jesus or have simply adopted the trappings of Christian culture. Pastor Joby Martin, Brett, and a guest pastor reflect on Jesus’ warnings at the close of the Sermon on the Mount, emphasizing the profound need to build one’s life on the rock of Christ rather than on superficial religious activity, cultural association, or self-improvement. They unpack common confusions regarding salvation, works, assurance, false prophets, and discuss living with authentic faith both now and into eternity.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Burden of True Assurance (00:17–06:30)

• Burden of Ministry:
  Joby Martin expresses the weight he feels as a pastor, knowing that many people attend church, serve, and appear religious but might not actually know Jesus:

  “Jesus is talking to people that think they're going to heaven and they're not … imagine if you were at the twin Towers on September 10th. What would you do, knowing what you know? And Jesus knows all things. He sees the end from the beginning.”—Joby Martin (00:25)

• Gospel vs. Religious Culture in the South:
  Deep cultural Christianity in the Southeast means many conflate church participation with faith.

  “People—‘I’m a Christian, just like I like NASCAR or whatever.’ But if you really peel back the layers … do you love Christ?”—Guest Pastor (01:40)

• The Difference Between Knowing About Jesus and Knowing Him:
  There’s a recurring theme of moving beyond "checking boxes" to a love and treasuring of Christ:

  “I would hate for them to read it and not know the author of the book.”—Joby Martin (03:16)

2. Assurance, Doubt, and Works-Based Thinking (04:01–08:50)

• Personal Stories of Doubt:
  Guest pastors share their own journeys of doubt and excessive altar calls, illustrating how common it is for people to wrestle with assurance due to workspace or performance-based theology.

  “I spent so many years with so much doubt. There was so much guilt and there was so much workspace theology.”—Guest Pastor (04:14)

• Critique of Manipulative Preaching:
  Doubt can be unnecessarily heightened by insecure or manipulative preaching:

  “It's insecure preaching, bro. If you want to kill it at a youth camp, just preach wheat and tares every time.”—Joby Martin (08:02)

• Satanic Accusation vs. Gospel Foundation:
  Satan uses ongoing doubts to keep believers from assurance; the solution is not to trust feelings but to root one’s assurance in the finished work of Christ:

  “You’ve got to build your eternal life on the good news of the rock of the gospel. Not just don’t build it on sex and money and status ... you also don’t build it on how you feel about God right now.”—Joby Martin (09:37)

3. Cheap Grace and False Assurance (09:51–11:52)

• The Danger of “Cheap Grace”:
  Claiming Christ’s name without surrendering to his lordship is not the faith that saves:

  “If you're just like, forget you. I do what I want and I'm going to believe in you and go to heaven, then you don't believe in him … so do the demons.”—Joby Martin (10:28)

• Faithfulness Over Fruitfulness:
  God looks for faithfulness, not just external fruitfulness; reward comes from obedience, not results alone (Parable of the Talents):

  “The two talent guy and the five talent guy get the same reward. And the reward is enter into the joy of your master.”—Joby Martin (11:45)

4. Discernment: Fruits, False Prophets, and the Narrow/Wide Way (12:03–21:00)

• Assessing Others by Their Fruits:
  Caution is given in judging ministers—give it time, watch character and gospel centrality:

  “Just because somebody starts a ministry or has a big platform … even if the guy seems to be doing the miraculous … the dragon is going to give powers to do miracles.”—Joby Martin (12:12–13:19)

• Characteristics of False Prophets:
  False teachers habitually tempt people to prioritize feelings (pop psychology, self-help), create enemies to be the hero, are greeded or judgmental—and typically invert the Sermon on the Mount:

  “You're blowing my mind right now.” —Brett (17:18)

• The Importance of Testing by Scripture:
  “Be Bereans”—test all teaching against the Word.

  “False prophets are often very eloquent and very gifted talkers, or nobody would listen to them. But you got to check what they say against the word.”—Joby Martin (13:52)

5. True and False Ministry Leaders; Exposing Wolves (21:00–28:00)

• False Prophet vs. Disqualified Elder:
  There is a distinction—a leader’s sin may disqualify them from ministry but doesn’t necessarily make them a false prophet. A false prophet preaches a false gospel:

  “A false prophet and a disqualified elder is not the same thing ... That does not disqualify the very true things he said about God and the Bible.” —Joby Martin (21:28)

• Calling Out Wolves:
  Pastors are warned: a shepherd must both care for sheep and oppose wolves.

  “If a shepherd won't kill wolves, you're not a shepherd. If all you want to do is chase after the one and lead to still waters and green pastures but you don't fight against wolves attacking your flock, you're a hireling because you run.”—Joby Martin (25:27)

6. “Lord, Lord” and Self-Deceived Religious People (28:00–36:30)

• How Can People Do Miracles Without Knowing Christ?:
  Miraculous acts aren’t proof of salvation—supernatural power or even deception is possible without a saving relationship.

  “How did the magicians working against Moses turn sticks into snakes? There's not only one power out there.”—Joby Martin (27:17)

• Self-Deception and Lawlessness:
  Many believe their religious activity earns merit, but the root issue is lawlessness (good deeds apart from Christ):

  “You workers of lawlessness. … So you can do a good thing without Jesus. And it's Christless.”—Joby Martin (34:05)

• Evidence of True Salvation:
  Those who truly love Christ will not “chest beat their performance” before God.

  “If you love Christ, you’re not going to stand in front of him and chest beat about your performance. … You’re just gonna love him. It's like, ‘Why should I let you in?’ It’s like, ‘It’s so good to see you.’”—Guest Pastor (34:51)

7. The Testimony and Hope of Salvation (36:30–43:06)

• The Community of Saints and Heavenly Rewards:
  Discussion of meeting biblical figures in heaven and the ongoing sharing of testimonies around God’s throne.

  “I mean, amazing. … You're going to cheer for him.”—Joby Martin and Guest Pastor (39:13–40:17)

• Encouragement for Young Leaders:
  Patience in obscurity, faithfulness in the “desert time” (Joseph, Moses, Paul).

  “I love Joseph's life. … He was 80 when he got rolling, boy.” —Various (41:03–41:31)

8. The Parable of House on The Rock (43:52–50:15)

• From Knowledge to Application:
  Not enough to “amen” sermons or decorate your life with Jesus as a guest—Jesus must be the foundation, not the decoration:

  “You could have inspiration, … but if you don’t have application, it doesn’t matter.”—Joby Martin (43:52)

• Digging to the Rock:
  To “dig through the sand” means to reject self- or culture-based foundations, surrender wholesale to Christ, and let him rule every part of life.

  “He [Jesus] wants to uproot your entire life and give you a new life, which is him.”—Joby Martin (45:02–46:54)

• Living by Immovable Gospel Truth:

  “Sand comes and goes… Rocks don't move. Are you the immovable object of the gospel of Jesus Christ?”—Guest Pastor (47:33)

9. Distinguishing True Gospel Ministry (50:15–54:00)

• Pitfalls of Idolatry:
  Even good things (family, church, work) become idolatrous foundations if they replace Christ as the central “rock.”

  “If you worship at the foot of [fitness], it will let you down...” —Joby Martin (50:15–52:01)

• Motives and Order Matter:
  True faith is not about actions alone, but about worship, motive, and proper order—Christ first, then works flow as a result.

10. The Astonishing Authority of Jesus (52:26–59:53)

• Jesus’ Unique Authority:
  Jesus wasn’t repeating others—he spoke as the new Moses, the very author of Scripture, with inherent authority.

  “He is not repeating what other people have said. He is telling us what the new covenant is.”—Joby Martin (52:26)

• Encountering Jesus in the Text:
  Even those unfamiliar with Jesus recognize that his words have supernatural weight.

  “If you read it ... you go, not a normal human said this. ... On the most carnal human levels, it reveals there is a deeper magic at work within this man.”—Guest Pastor (53:55)

• No New Revelations, Only Illumination:

  “The false prophet is the guy that has some sort of special revelation that is not in alignment with the word of God. There’s no new revelation. There’s illumination of what God has said.” —Joby Martin (59:46)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I would rather people read [the Bible] than not read it, but I would hate for them to read it and not know the author of the book.”

  • Joby Martin (03:16)

• “If you want to kill it at a youth camp, just preach wheat and tares every time.”

  • Joby Martin (08:02)

• “You got to believe your beliefs more than you believe your doubts.”

  • Joby Martin (09:37)

• “If you ever protect a shepherd at the expense of a sheep, you’re a hireling, you’re not a shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.”

  • Joby Martin (32:02)

• “If you love Christ, you’re not going to stand in front of him and chest beat about your performance. You’re just going to love him.”

  • Guest Pastor (34:51)

• “If you build your life on things that come and go, … then when the wind blows, you’re going to get tossed around. Storms don’t move rocks.”

  • Guest Pastor (47:52)

• “You could have had new information but if you don’t have application, it doesn’t matter.”

  • Joby Martin (43:52)

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Important Timestamps

• The Pastoral Burden & Opening Theme – 00:17-03:09
• Cultural Christianity vs. True Faith – 01:40-02:16
• Assurance, Doubt, Manipulative Preaching – 04:01-08:50
• Cheap Grace, Lordship, and Real Faith – 09:51-11:52
• Fruit, Discernment, and False Teaching – 12:03-21:00
• False Prophets vs Disqualified Elders – 21:14-26:56
• Miracles, Self-Deception, Lawlessness – 27:17-36:30
• Heaven, Testimony, and the Saints – 36:30-43:06
• The House on the Rock Parable – 43:52-50:15
• Proper Foundation and Idolatry – 50:15-52:01
• The Authority of Jesus – 52:26-59:53
• Closing Gospel Plea and Prayer – 60:28-61:42

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Final Thoughts and Takeaway

• Assurance of salvation is not rooted in our feelings, religious activity, or even “fruit” alone, but in the finished work and lordship of Jesus Christ.
• Christian culture, performance, and even exposure to godly things can’t replace a real, surrendered relationship.
• Discern false teaching by comparing all messages—even those in the church—with the content and character of Jesus and Scripture.
• Jesus’ authority is astonishing because his teaching is not borrowed or speculative; it is the direct expression of God himself.
• Action steps for listeners: Reflect honestly on the foundation of your life, surrender to Christ fully—not as a guest, but as Lord—and build on the rock, not the sand.

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Closing Prayer:

“Father in heaven, may we build our lives on the solid rock of the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Amen.” —Joby Martin (61:42)

Transcript

[Pastor Joby Martin]

Welcome to Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin. The Church of 1122 is a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ. And we're praying this message helps you deepen your relationship with him. Now let's dive in.

[Brett]

Pastor Joby, I feel like there was a burden that you were carrying tonight. Why don't you tell me about it?

[Joby Martin]

Well, I mean, we're closing the Sermon on the Mount, and Jesus is talking to people that think they're going to heaven and they're not going to heaven. And the burden is we all pastor a church, and there are people that could show up and do a bunch of activities, but they don't know Jesus as their Lord. And so that's a really heavy burden. And Jesus is warning them. I mean, the. The illustration I used at the end was, imagine if you were at the twin Towers on September 10th. What would you do, knowing what you know? And Jesus knows all things. He sees the. The end from the beginning. So he knows what the line in heaven looks like, and the surprised people. And he came from heaven to earth on a rescue mission to entreat people to not put their faith in their own activities, but to put their. Build their life on the rock of the gospel of Jesus Christ. That's the burden, man.

[Brett]

Yeah.

[Guest Pastor]

I think it's one of the areas that, you know, a lot of people will talk about the complication of ministry in different contexts and how different soils are hard, you know, based on. If you're in an urban center, if you're in New York, you're in Seattle. Right. Every city's got its unique challenges. I think one of the unique challenges to doing gospel ministry in the Southeast United States is what you talk about all the time. You know, that people. I'm a Christian, just like. I like NASCAR or whatever. But if you really peel back the layers, it's like, well, do you love Christ?

[Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Guest Pastor]

Like, do you love him? Do you long for his appearing? Do you. Whatever words you would want to use to describe a love for Christ, that Jesus came for hearts, you know, and. And even though it is the Holy Spirit who quickens hearts to love him and to believe him, it's. It does. It is a unique challenge to the Southeast. I mean, Texas certainly would fall into that category. But across the Southeast, Christianity is just so intertwined with the culture historically that to make a real gospel plea, it's not only timely, but it's necessary. It is necessary to. To plead the. The actual gospel of Jesus Christ because of how religious The, I mean, that's the. It's called the Religious South.

[Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Guest Pastor]

You know what I mean? So, man, great job tonight.

[Joby Martin]

And G. And you know, being pro Jesus is on the upswing right now, right?

[Guest Pastor]

For sure. In popular culture.

[Joby Martin]

Very much so, yeah. More Bible sold and all the things. Those are good things. Totally. I would rather people read it than not read it, but I would hate for them to read it and not know the author of the book. Yeah.

[Guest Pastor]

It's like you hear the people, podcasters, whoever, and they're talking about, I'm going to a Bible study, I'm going to this. It's like, man, praise God.

[Joby Martin]

And.

[Guest Pastor]

But you don't ever want that to be like a box that you check for spirituality because it's only ever a box that you check for, for. Because it's the current spirituality that you're subscribing to that is a long way from loving and treasuring Christ above all things.

[Joby Martin]

And if you're on the front end of that journey, man, praise God. It just, it doesn't end in interest, it ends in Christ. And I just, you know, I get

[Guest Pastor]

it, man, when anytimes I even see the words assurance of salvation or I hear an assurance of salvation message, it just like I get chills, you know what I mean? Because I spent so many years with so much doubt.

[Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Guest Pastor]

There was so much guilt and there was so much workspace theology. And you know, I remember I'd wake up and I'd be out preaching in my early 20s and I'd wake up in the middle of the night and where, whoever, wherever I was just terrified that I'm not a Christian because I thought this or I did that or I would remember some sin from five years ago. And you know, it's like the, the priests that beat themselves with whips and chains, you know, the, the monks. And it's that way emotionally for some, based on how you grew up. But even that, you got to work through it. Like, you got to work through the guilt and the shame and the workspace theology and get down to the heart of like, like, do you love Christ? And then how do you know? You know, how do you know that?

[Joby Martin]

Which do this pre service meeting, you guys know, obviously know about it at about 2 o' clock or something on a Thursday before I get locked down to do my final prep for the sermon. And Justin Todd was in there and I said, I was like, guys, I'm feel a little angsty tonight, so get ready. And I want church people to get saved and people and the only people I want to doubt their salvation are people that aren't saved. And Justin Todd is like, man, I could have used that a few years. A bunch of years ago. He says, I have four baptism certificates on my wall. He said, my mom had to quit the choir to keep me from walking down the aisle every time. Because he would. He was like, I grew up. We'd hear these sermons and be like, if you're 99.9% sure, then you're 100% going to hell. And he's like, well, that's me.

[Guest Pastor]

Because it's lines like that just kill you.

[Joby Martin]

And then he was like, the pastor's wife got saved at a revival. And he's like, when Sister Judy needed to get saved, we all got saved again. And so I'm not trying to do that.

[Guest Pastor]

Well, it was just such a half gospel.

[Joby Martin]

Correct.

[Guest Pastor]

You know what I mean? Like, it was never the finished work of Christ. Correct.

[Joby Martin]

It was, are you doing enough? Exactly, dude. My friend Kyle with undaunted life. This is one of the funniest lines. He's like, nothing will make you question your salvation. Like listening to John MacArthur Sermon on the. On the assurance of your salvation. Is your fruit sweet enough? And all that stuff. You're like, what? Yeah, so I'm not trying to say. I would lay Romans 7 right over this too. Paul is struggling with the war between his flesh and his spirit. And so the struggle is real because sanctification is a progressive thing. We're not saying that you are living a perfect life. We're saying that you have been imputed the perfection of Christ when you put your faith in him. And I also think. I mean, I don't know. I don't. Well, I don't know. The Bible says I have the mind of Christ. So in order to really understand the Sermon on the Mount is the way it starts and the way it ends is gospel all the middle is, what does the gospel infected life look like? And the moment you start talking about activity like lust and anger and money and performing your righteous deeds in front of others, the way you pray, the way you sing, the way you go to church, all this stuff, man, just so quick our mind flips it around. And then Jesus flips it back to its right order at the end.

[Brett]

Do you think it's only bad teaching or is there something about a new faith? Like. Like a plant? Like when a plant's little, it's like kind of, you know, what's the time lapse? And it's kind of like easy can lean this way or that way, because that was my experience too. I went and walked the aisle 900 times or had the doubts. And all the pre better pray it one more time just in case, you know. And yeah, there was some teaching problem, but also maybe it's like being a kid and you kind of don't know

[Joby Martin]

who you are yet.

[Brett]

You know what I mean? Like, do you think that's part of it?

[Joby Martin]

I think some of those situation sometimes, man, it's insecure preaching, bro. If you want to kill it at a youth camp, just preach wheat and tears every time. You know, some of you are in the crop. And if you want to know that, you know that, you know, let's just. Let's just make sure from here on. You know what I mean?

[Guest Pastor]

I do.

[Joby Martin]

And that's the insecurity of the preacher because he wants a big response. That's not good. Yeah, yeah. And then it's a work of the enemy. Like, did you do your screw tape letter thing? You should do it. I should do it. You should go to all staff meetings and you should do it.

[Brett]

Yeah, my daughter was sick, so.

[Joby Martin]

Okay, whatever. Try to juke me all you want. We do have them recorded bringing your daughter into this.

[Guest Pastor]

Huh?

[Joby Martin]

Download it and you can watch it later, so that's fine. So there's this really cool thing, I don't know, follow us on our socials and Ryan Sweat walks through how you can put some prompts into chat GBT and say, write me a screw tape letter. So what happens is the enemy tries to grab that struggle which is real of the war between your flesh and your spirit, and then get you not just to have a doubt, but to drown in the sea of doubt like James talks about. And to believe your doubts more than you believe your beliefs. That's the work of the enemy because the. The blood has a better word over us. And that is therefore now there is no condemnations for those who are in Christ Jesus. And he's trying to spit condemnation at you. So you got to build your eternal life on the good news of the rock of the gospel. Not just don't build it on sex and money and status and those things, but you also don't build it on how you feel about God right now. You build it on what Jesus said salvation is.

[Brett]

And there's all in that in that culture. There's also this idea of cheap grace where people. It's like, oh, I don't want to go to hell, so I'll sign the get out of hell.

[Joby Martin]

Yeah, so then read the middle of the sermonal amount. Then if you're doing whatever you want to do and say, well, he'll save me anyway, then by definition, he's not your Lord. You have not called on the name of the Lord, even if you said Lord, Lord in a service. That's the difference. The name of the Lord is like the character and nature of Jesus, and his name means Savior. And so if you go back to the Beatitudes, when you turn over your reign, the reins of your life to him, then you don't get to tell him who you're going to have sex with. He tells you. Now, I'm not saying it's not a struggle and you're not tempted and sometimes you don't fail. That's not what I'm saying. But if you're just like, forget you. I do what I want and I'm going to believe in you and go to heaven, then you don't believe in him. You believe that he is who he says he is. But cool. So do the demons. But they don't surrender to the name of the Lord and say, we're going to be commanded by you.

[Brett]

We've. You've said before the phrase, God wants your faithfulness, not fruitfulness or something kind of like that.

[Joby Martin]

Well, he wants both. It's just we're rewarded, you know, the reward, the rewardfulness. Like we're not in charge. And by that, I'm talking about the parable of the talents. And I'm mostly talking to, like, church leaders. Like, God doesn't look at a big church with more fruits of salvation and be like, you get a bigger reward than the guy that was just as faithful in declaring the gospel and being an event, doing the work of an evangelist and equipping his people for the Great Commission. We just, you know, we don't see like God sees. We just see the external. Like we, you know, and God sees our heart. And so that's what I mean. The two talent guy and the five talent guy get the same reward. And the reward is enter into the joy of your master.

[Brett]

I like what you said about when you were talking about the fruit. You said, we'll give it a season and see.

[Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Brett]

And then.

[Joby Martin]

And then especially that's in regards to false prophets.

[Brett]

So when you're watching somebody else, okay, and you don't know them or you're listening to their preaching or whatever, how. How do you know them? By their fruits.

[Joby Martin]

All right, I'm gonna give you an example. Philip Anthony Mitchell blows up on Everybody's Instagram in my world a year or two ago and everybody's like, you should get it from saturated. And all I'm seeing is a clip. And he's very passionate and incredibly gifted. And I was like, let me just give it a minute. Now I listen to him just about every week and he preaches at the Village. And Matt Chandler, who I know dearly, says, I've known this brother a long time and he's a godly man of character. So that's all. If you look, I'm going to pick him as an example who's a brother I'm getting to know right now. If you look at the fruits of, if you look at his character and integrity, gospel centrality, he doesn't just have a season, he's blown up recently like God just poured out on his church through him. But if you look at seasons of his life, this is what this brother has been about. That's all I'm saying.

[Brett]

Right.

[Joby Martin]

And so just because somebody, you know, starts a ministry or has a big platform or. And even if the guy seems to be doing the miraculous. Neat. The book of Revelation says the dragon is going to give powers to do miracles. And so there are some false prophets out there. Philip Anthony Mitchell. Mitchell is a gospel slinging, Bible teacher, teaching like character guy. And so that's the kind of thing I'm saying you want to be like the Bereans.

[Brett]

Yeah.

[Joby Martin]

Not just somebody, because listen, man, false prophets are often very eloquent and very gifted talkers or nobody would listen to them. But you got to check what they say against the word. And so the number of false prophets out there, when you, in the name of God say things that don't line up with the word of God, that's who he's talking about. And again, part of the reason I jumped back to some of your scripture from last week, Brett, and by the way, way to go last week, bro. Thank you. I love listening to you preach.

[Guest Pastor]

I love listening to you preach.

[Joby Martin]

Well, thanks. I pay you to do it.

[Brett]

I love listening both.

[Joby Martin]

I don't. If I didn't want to listen to you, I listen to you.

[Guest Pastor]

If you didn't.

[Joby Martin]

But I love listening to both of

[Brett]

you preach at the same time.

[Joby Martin]

Well, thanks. Well, it never happened, but, but I do, man, so good. Anyway, so part of the reason I didn't do a good job when I was dividing up the scriptures, you know, because I, I should have cut it off at the, the before the narrow gate. Yeah.

[Guest Pastor]

Cuz I asked about it. I asked Ally, I said, are you sure that this is what the, the preaching schedule says? She was like, it's what it says.

[Joby Martin]

I was like, all right, well, feel free to check with me because I, I should have backed it up there. But anyway, you read all the words. But, but it's. He's talking about there's a narrow gate that leads to life. That's the truth of the gospel. There's a wide gate where people are going to say things that tickle your ears. And then on the heels of that, he's like, watch out for the false prophets that are doing the wide gate thing. And, bro, there's a lot of people out there teaching a gospel, a false gospel, a prosperity gospel, a poverty gospel, a workspace. This. That is not the gospel. That is not the rock to build your household.

[Guest Pastor]

Well, correct me if I'm wrong in this, you know, and I did talk about this a little bit in the sermon, but, you know, on the two roads throughout the Sermon of the Mount, Jesus certainly gave behaviors or evidences along the way that then lead to, like these, These things lead to life. Like, this is the road to life. This is what will happen on the road to life. And this is what. And the way I really think about it in the road analogy is that there are signs on the road that tell you where you're headed. Right? And so I think if you put that in the context of the faults of false prophets, if you, if you have discerning ears, again, not judgmental ears, but discerning ears, what you'll hear in, in false teachers on the regular is they will preach a lust message, meaning they're not telling you to lust sexually because they know it would not go anywhere, but they were. They will be tempting you to be dominated by your feelings, and it will be pop psychology and self help. They will be judgmental. They will be preaching in a way that they put themselves in a position of superiority, and they look down at the people that they're preaching to. So they'll be judgmental. They'll be double talkers. You will regularly catch them writing checks with their mouth that their ministry can't cash or making prophetic promises that may or may not ever come to be. They will be greedy. Personally greedy or ministry greedy. They will be greedy. They will hate someone. In order for them to be the hero, they will have to create an enemy.

[Joby Martin]

I'm a little slow on the uptake, but you were just preaching the photo negative of the Sermon on the Mount exactly right.

[Brett]

Yeah, you're blowing my Mind right now.

[Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Guest Pastor]

And retaliation.

[Joby Martin]

Right.

[Guest Pastor]

If anybody comes after him versus being humble, suing brothers. They're not praying for those who are persecuting them. They're retaliating.

[Brett]

We can. We can.

[Guest Pastor]

And so that's what I'm saying. Like, Jesus gave us signs to say, here's some discerning things for you to see if people are doing these things. Again, I want to be clear habitually and regularly. There's no such thing as a perfect preacher, save the one who preached the Sermon on the Mount.

[Joby Martin]

Amen.

[Guest Pastor]

And so I'm not saying now create a new paradigm by which you hold every preacher up to. And if they say something that you interpret might be right.

[Brett]

That's a really good lens, though.

[Guest Pastor]

I mean, that shows you that's the signs on the road. Like, if you see what I'm saying.

[Joby Martin]

So you quoted some real smart person. Let's don't say his name. Because I disagree a little bit. Because you were like, there's only one point that's not necessarily true with parables. I think that's why Jesus did teach parables, because he would tell a story and then you would, like, wrestle with and unpack that story over and over and over from a bunch of different angles for the rest of your life. Like, everybody that was building a house, they're like, remember that one time Rabbi talked about the house? I think he's talking about both you. The life that you live on this planet will fall apart if you don't do what I said to do and put it into practice. If you just move an amen at sermons, but you don't flee sexual immorality and you don't pray for your enemies. I'm telling you, your life is not going to go as good. But more important than that, that is also true, is eternally your life will fall into a lake of fire. Both of those things are true.

[Guest Pastor]

I wish there would be a way to go and switch it from eternal life to life eternally.

[Joby Martin]

Oh, yeah.

[Guest Pastor]

Because I think that that would help, especially in the religious South.

[Joby Martin]

Oh, yeah.

[Guest Pastor]

Because we've separated the eternal side from the life now.

[Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Brett]

That's good.

[Guest Pastor]

And when Jesus says everlasting life, that begins the moment you come awake to the reality of God. And in and through the Gospel.

[Joby Martin]

Right.

[Guest Pastor]

That's when your everlasting life starts. And you will just continue into the fullest version of that forever and ever and ever. And so it's like life abundantly, life eternally. I feel like that would be a good word. Switch that would help people understand.

[Joby Martin]

And I keep going back to that conversation I had with Renault, pastor of Mosaic Church down in Orlando, when he was like, listen, man, when Jesus in John 10, because he knew we were doing 10, 10 life, he's like, we're not simply talking about right and wrong. We're talking about pathways that lead to death and destruction and a pathway that leads to Jesus. And he is the abundant life. So when we. When we hear the voice of the good shepherd and we do what he says, even if you don't want to forgive or you don't. You know what I mean? Whatever. The thing is, pick any of the categories in all of the Sermon on the Mount, okay? Then when we say no to him, it's not simply wrong. That will never sustain you. That's just morality. You know, depending on the kind of upbringing you had, how smart you are, and what your self will is, then you might be able to white knuckle some morality for a while. That's not what we're talking about. The moment you begin to realize there's only two options. There's a thief that still kills and destroys, and there's a good shepherd laid down his life. And when you hear him and do what he says, it leads to life and life abundantly. It starts the moment you hear his voice for the first time and surrender and say, all right, you're going to be my shepherd. I'm not going to tell you what to do. You're going to tell me to do that first step. Your eternal life has begun. And then it ends in glorification with life eternally with him.

[Brett]

Before we get off the false prophet thing, I want to ask kind of a tough question because I know a lot of people have had a pastor that they admire who then later it came out that there was some real bad fruit.

[Joby Martin]

Like, you mean in their own life?

[Brett]

In their own life?

[Guest Pastor]

Yes.

[Brett]

Maybe their pastor or maybe a pastor that they really respected and sure. Like, hey, there was. There was bad fruit. Does that mean that person was. I think I had people ask me that question. What do I do with that now?

[Joby Martin]

Well, no, no. A false prophet and a disqualified elder is not the same thing. Okay, you got to go back to what were they saying? You can preach the true gospel and sin and be disqualified. That doesn't not make you a false prophet. That makes you a disqualified elder. Those are not the same thing. Now, that doesn't mean you get to preach again. But that doesn't mean what you said was untrue. That's good like, yeah, Robbie Zachariah, if all the allegations are true, which I don't know, I haven't dug into it. Terrible, man, Terrible, terrible. But that does not disqualify the very true things that he said about God and about the Bible and those kinds of things.

[Brett]

Yeah.

[Joby Martin]

And that's the difference. So don't conflate those two things.

[Brett]

Yeah.

[Joby Martin]

Does that make sense? You got to look at the content of what they're saying and then positionally to not disqualify, be disqualified. You look at the content of their character.

[Brett]

That's good.

[Joby Martin]

The sad thing is, is that as long as the false prophet avoids a few major pitfalls, they can continue to be a false prophet forever.

[Brett]

Yeah, I think, I think, let me

[Joby Martin]

say the number of people, sometimes people come to me and tell me the preachers you're listening to, and it's atrocious.

[Guest Pastor]

It blows my mind.

[Joby Martin]

And I'll just go, absolutely blows my mind. And they'll be like, you don't like them? I was like, I don't know them. Seems real nice. Here's what I want you to do. I want you to go find a recent sermon where they preached the gospel that we were created as image bearers of God, that we sin and are separated from God, that Jesus lived a perfect life, died on a cross, was resurrected from the grave, and we are imputed with his righteousness. They don't have to use. They can use whatever words they want. And by faith in him, because of his grace, we are saved. Just give me the clips of that and send that to me. And they can't find it for sure because it's self help TED talks and prosperity junk. It's what it is, dude. But they're real, dude, they're real good talkers. And it is a false hopeless gospel. And I think there are still people getting saved under that because God, I

[Brett]

mean, bro, crooked sticks.

[Joby Martin]

I mean, right? Like there are people that holy trust in Jesus for their salvation either, even under that trash. So I'm not questioning a person's salvation. I. But if, but there's a whole lot of fault. There's a bunch of people in line to be like, we did everything he told us to do.

[Guest Pastor]

And as a shepherd, a local shepherd in a local church, those are conversations that we have regularly. And I would certainly be willing to talk about ministries that I, from my view, would say, yeah, of course, correct. Get fed here. You know what I mean? Supplementally, you know, and others, you should totally stay away from this. But even in that, I I would have a hard time putting those people's names on blast.

[Brett]

Right.

[Guest Pastor]

Because I don't know them.

[Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Guest Pastor]

And I don't. And I'm not out witch hunting. Does that. Like I want to pastor our people. Well.

[Joby Martin]

But I'm not one person from the stage.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah.

[Joby Martin]

Rob Bell, when Rob Bell wrote Love Wins and he was so popular and I was like, this is a false prophet. Don't buy the book. Don't fund the ministry. What he is saying will lead you to hell. I'm telling you. And he knows the Bible better than you. Not you.

[Brett]

Thank you.

[Guest Pastor]

Well, yeah, he might know better than me. He pretty smart cat.

[Joby Martin]

And he is. Yeah. And he is not saying what Jesus said.

[Brett]

Not going to get farm right now. But kind of went downhill after that.

[Joby Martin]

Never did go down well. He made a lot of money for a while. I mean, just always watch that too. You see a guy do that sort of thing, check how much money they're making. Because he was making a money on Oprah, the Oprah network and doing those things. But that and the reason I did that. I don't know that you can be a good shepherd and had a conversation with Kyle about this today. Pastor and shepherd are the same word in the New Testament. And if a shepherd won't kill wolves. You're not a shepherd. If all you want to do is chase after the one and lead to still waters and green pastures. But you don't fight against the wolves in that are attacking your flock. You're a hireling because you run. When that book came out, it was so popular. He had such a platform in virtually every evangelical church and it would have been dangerous to the flock that I have to give an account for. That's the only time I've ever like, sure. From the stage said, this ain't it. Yeah.

[Brett]

Yeah. But I do see your point. I mean, we're not in the business of trying to tear other people down.

[Joby Martin]

Yeah. If I knew a guy just straight up at this point, man, I know a lot of people. It's great.

[Guest Pastor]

Just call them.

[Joby Martin]

I would call them and be like, what are you saying, bro? I. I mean, maybe you didn't. Maybe you were just trying to connect and the illustration got a little hand or. You know what I mean?

[Brett]

Yeah.

[Joby Martin]

100.

[Brett]

So those, those very haunting verses 21 to 23. Not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. How is it possible for somebody to do those things and apparently successfully without a relationship with Jesus?

[Joby Martin]

How did the magicians working against Moses turn sticks into Snakes. There's not only one power out there. I mean, dude, Moses shows up to Pharaoh, and God's like, all right, here's what you're going to do. You're going to take your stick, throw it on the ground. It's going to be a snake, and pick it up, be a stick again.

[Brett]

And you're thinking, no, nobody can top this.

[Joby Martin]

Just go. And they're like, we can do that. And they're like, oh, yeah. So I think it's Revelation 13 talks

[Guest Pastor]

about that witch doctors all over the world are either doing or they're at least making people believe that they're doing all kinds of weird.

[Joby Martin]

So they're either liars or they have a demonic spirit. Which one you want to follow?

[Brett]

Both. The same thing, maybe.

[Joby Martin]

Correct.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah. Manifesting itself out differently.

[Joby Martin]

Correct.

[Guest Pastor]

But I. I think there is a layer of that that's either.

[Joby Martin]

Is.

[Guest Pastor]

They're either lying. And I think sometimes people can be such good habitual liars that they actually believe their own lie, bro.

[Joby Martin]

You go get your tarot cards, and they're like, here's what they knew. I'm not saying they don't know it either that thing is a lie and they've tricked you and they're stealing your money because they've got you. It's a trick. Well, what a waste of time. You don't want to do that, bro. Or they actually do have some sort of ability to tell you things that there's only one way they would know, but that does not come from the spirit of God. Dude, our battle is not against flesh and blood, man. Like, when we do that in the arena, that's a for real thing. And so you got to test every spirit. How do you test them? Yeah. To see if it works or not. No, for some. A Ouija board or something crazy like that. Okay. Sometimes the kids are just goofing around, and sometimes some demons do things. Yeah, you test it against this word. The Bible talks a lot about witchcraft, man.

[Brett]

The Bible is wild. I was reading David. I think it's first Samuel. And Saul is terribly insecure, and he's like, I can't hear from God. He goes to a witch.

[Guest Pastor]

The witch of indoor or whatever. Yeah, yeah, dude.

[Brett]

And she calls up the spirit of Samuel, and he talks back to Saul. He's like, what are you doing? Bother me like this. And we're, like, focused on the message.

[Joby Martin]

Like, wait a minute.

[Brett]

That worked. Like, she did it and it worked. How did that happen?

[Joby Martin]

I tell you how it happened. Because there are principalities of Darkness. That stuff is real. Like we, I mean, we read about that stuff too fast, bro. I can't wait till we start getting into these next chapters and Jesus is rolling up on the demoniac and Legion is like talking back. All right, you don't believe that that stuff. Yeah. Test every spirit and the, and the standard by which you test it is the word of God. And if that, if anything, is not pointing to the bodily resurrected Christ, it is not from God.

[Brett]

So. So these people, either they're lying and they're trying to impress the Lord in that moment, or they've got some sort of demonic association. Is it possible that somebody had good intentions but just wasn't like they were self deceived? Completely.

[Guest Pastor]

I mean, the blind lead the blind.

[Joby Martin]

Yeah, completely.

[Guest Pastor]

That they would think they're. That they think they're in the right.

[Brett]

Right.

[Guest Pastor]

So 100% they are so blind that they think that because they did a spiritual act, a prophecy or whatever in the Lord's name, that they're convinced that they're right and that this merits them favor with God. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so therefore, yeah, there is, There is a level of blindness. You can be that blind.

[Joby Martin]

That.

[Guest Pastor]

That's what I'm saying is that you can be operating under such deception. And anyone not under the blood of Jesus technically is right.

[Joby Martin]

Yeah, you're already.

[Guest Pastor]

But in regards to religious practice, they're operating under such deception that they can't even see.

[Brett]

Yeah. And that reminds. That would remind you of the cultural Christian.

[Guest Pastor]

Totally.

[Joby Martin]

Not only that, though, sometimes there, There is a thing that is called toxic empathy today that has invaded some very major churches and it's being called cover up culture. And it's a real thing where particularly in the churches that have broadly broadcasted walking in the prophetic, they have had false prophets that have also abused people and they found out that these prophecies they were getting, they just mined the information on Facebook. And then in the moment, like the Lord's giving me a word and they just read your Instagram, bro, and just gave you back the information. And then instead of correcting that person and disciplining that person, continued to platform that person. And I actually think it was a very crooked sense of we are here to restore and cover and your worst day doesn't. But here's the thing. If you ever protect a shepherd at the expense of a sheep, you're a hireling, you're not a shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. And these people were being abused by somebody that they had given the title prophet to. And the people in charge of that church were knowingly covering that up and trying and saying, nah, we're in the restoration business around here. Again, through the blood of Jesus, you are restored to the right relationship with the Almighty God. That does not mean that you continue to be qualified to sit in any position of leadership in a church. And it is. A lot of the stuff's coming out right now. It's really, really, really sad.

[Brett]

Yeah, it's like what you were saying earlier, Brit. It was. I mean, that is lying and breaking an oath. Like, that's like, I lied to you, I tricked you. And that's, that's the false prophet thing you were just saying.

[Guest Pastor]

For sure. The, the thing about the verses there that I don't know, that I've wrestled out fully, but you don't hear much about. If you've been around church a while, 21 through 23, you've heard and you know, not everyone says Lord, Lord will enter on that day. Many will say, Lord, Lord, didn't we do this? And demons and mighty works in your name. And then I'll declare to them, I never knew you depart from me. It's the last part that's interesting to me is you workers of lawlessness.

[Brett]

I love what you said about that.

[Joby Martin]

I knew you would. I was like, I looked at you,

[Guest Pastor]

but I was like, ah, that's not something that people normally exposit on.

[Joby Martin]

I did, I did a little bit of a deep dive on that. On like, okay, what does that mean? Cuz casting out demons and mighty works isn't lawless. So what does that mean? Well, in the same sermon, Jesus says, I came to fulfill the law so you can do a good thing without Jesus. And it's, it's Christless. And if you were Christless, then God doesn't know you in the sense that you were adopted into his family and so depart from me.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah, but you know, overarchingly, it's

[Joby Martin]

you.

[Guest Pastor]

If you love Christ, you're not going to stand in front of him and chest beat about your performance. You're just not, you're, you're just gonna love him. It's like, why should I let you in? It's like, it's so good to see you correct.

[Brett]

You know?

[Guest Pastor]

You know what I mean? Like the idea of me trying to posture myself in front of Christ. That's the spirit of what she's getting at. You know what I mean?

[Brett]

That. Well, I think that they already know that they're screwed because it's like when it's like, no, no, no, let me explain something. No, we, we prophesied.

[Joby Martin]

We, we, we. Oh, I deserve this.

[Brett]

Right?

[Joby Martin]

The moment they say I deserve.

[Guest Pastor]

It's a bit of an argument. You're arguing for your own.

[Joby Martin]

That's what I was saying. Imagine standing in line. God's like, I'm totally in. I'm the exorcism team. And like, whatever, I'm. I prophesy. Another dude's like, I do miracles. He owes me this. And then it's like, that is if, if, if this won't happen, it can't happen. But what can't happen is you're in line and he's like, depart from me. And you'll be like, what? I love you. You know? Yeah, that can't happen.

[Brett]

Right.

[Joby Martin]

But the, the evidence is they're actually like, I need to see your manager. Do you know you're talking to here? Mm. I've got receipts of my deeds. That's the evidence. It's very similar to the one talent guy that we'll get to in the fall.

[Guest Pastor]

Dude, I can't wait to see him.

[Joby Martin]

You know what I mean?

[Guest Pastor]

Like, you ever just like when you can just ponder whatever you want, does your brain just ever wander to like, seeing him?

[Joby Martin]

I was sad, you know what I mean? This. This blew my mind. The other day I was at the summit church with JD and there's this very well resourced guy there and he got saved just a few years ago and he's reading his Bible and he gets to the widow Mike thing and he's like, pastor jd. Is that. Is that like a story or is that a real thing? And. And JD's like, no, this is a real. This happened. He's like, that's an actual woman. He's like, yeah. He goes, so I'll get to meet her. Think about it that way. And JD is like, yeah, you'll get to meet her. And then he was like, she's not going to outgive me. Think about that. Dude. That's fresh eyes on a text for sure. Like the woman at the well, you get to like have a chat with her, man. How cool is that?

[Guest Pastor]

Totally.

[Joby Martin]

I think this is a part of what the book of Revelation talks about. We're around the throne, laying down our crowns and singing holy, holy, holy, and every testament. Because this, it's not just a worship service the whole time. There's a new heavens, there's a new earth. Like, we'll give, you know, and they will overcome by the blood of a lamb and the word of our testimony that doesn't end when we get into heaven. Can you imagine getting to hear the testimony of the woman who touched the hymn of the garment? And I'd be like, I've preached about you or the woman that busts open the. The alabaster jar. And I'm like, I'll be like, jesus said I was going to be talking about you. I get to talk to you. What was it like?

[Guest Pastor]

How.

[Joby Martin]

That's how real this is. These are not stories.

[Guest Pastor]

Right. And you know, and the Bible talks about five different kinds of crowns that the faithful receive. There's the crown alive crown of righteousness. There's a crown specifically reserved for pastors who's finished faithful or elders who finished faithfully. You know, there's a handful of different crowns that'll be handed out. But the best part of the crowns is that is in Revelation, is it four where we get where you give them back.

[Brett]

Yeah.

[Guest Pastor]

You know what I mean? Like the beauty of him giving you the crowns is that now he's giving you things.

[Joby Martin]

That's the story you're going to be

[Guest Pastor]

able to give back to him.

[Joby Martin]

That's the store up for yourselves. Treasures in heaven.

[Guest Pastor]

Oh boy.

[Joby Martin]

Or. And I, I gotta believe this. What can you take to heaven but praises and people and can you imagine when we get to heaven and we can see clearly and. And you're glorified so you got. You don't have a selfish bone in your body and there's a sea of people behind you that all your one mores. And you know, and God lets you see it unto his glory. And you're like, God, I've got nothing to bring in and of myself. But, but here's who, here's who came with me because you saved me. You know what I mean?

[Brett]

I wonder if your testimony, you'll also tell your testimony in light of what you know, bro. In heaven. Like. Because you ever think about that, it's like, God, what are you doing? Like, like you've heard the illustration of the tapestry. Like if you flip it over, it's just all this tangled knots of stuff. But the other side. And so then when we're there, we're like, oh, now I get it. Like there's so I was wrong about that and that I just thought this was happening. And, and then we'll retell the story. Like this is what you were up to all along. I mean, amazing.

[Joby Martin]

Yeah. Brit said this one time, it was right after Bradley died and I was just kind of Working it all out. And I honestly wasn't mad at God. I. I just wasn't, you know, but very confused, you know, and, and we're, Britt and I are talking and he's like, yeah, and then one day you'll get there and you're like, you did it again. You look at perfect plan. I couldn't see it. I couldn't understand it. Wow.

[Brett]

Yeah.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah, man. We're only ever going to cheer for him.

[Joby Martin]

That's right.

[Guest Pastor]

You know. Well, who's a, who's a Old Testament, New Testament, you know, like that guy, the guy's like, I'm, dude, I want to meet the widow. Oh yeah, who's somebody you want to meet up there, man?

[Brett]

Joseph.

[Guest Pastor]

Oh boy, that's a good one. Have we ever done a whole series on Joseph, Amanda? We did. Did, we did Genesis.

[Joby Martin]

We did Genesis. We talked about his life. Oh yeah, that'd be a good one. Like we did for Elijah. Yeah. Because you know, like, I think I kind of did his whole life in a sermon or something, right?

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah, boy, Joseph's a good one.

[Joby Martin]

Yep.

[Guest Pastor]

Good choice thing.

[Brett]

If a young, often a younger leader will come to me and say, I just, I've just. I'm in this season of obscurity, you know, God's, God's given me this 23.

[Joby Martin]

You know, you're 23 and nobody likes you when you're 20.

[Brett]

And that's one that I go to. And then also I point out the number of years between Paul's conversion and his like full on ministry, you know.

[Guest Pastor]

How long was Moses in the desert?

[Brett]

40 years.

[Guest Pastor]

There you go.

[Brett]

Yeah, but I mean, like I just, I love Joseph's life.

[Guest Pastor]

He was in the desert for 40 years of Israel. But how long was he in the desert with the Midianite? 40 years of the Midianites.

[Joby Martin]

Yeah, he was 80 when he got rolling, boy. He's old man. What about you, Elijah?

[Guest Pastor]

Oh yeah, man, you're Elijah guy.

[Joby Martin]

Because also we always go to calling on the fire. But I've also had those moments when the brook dries up, you know,

[Brett]

and

[Joby Martin]

then I want to know. I'm like, all right, man. Cherries the fire. Talk to me.

[Brett]

Yeah.

[Joby Martin]

What's that like?

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah. Austin said this last week in the kind of introducing the new song we're singing the I want to see Jesus or let me see Jesus. He was Talking about Hebrews 12, that we're surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. You know, there's something to that, man. Like I don't understand, you know, on the whole like multiple parallel universe thing going on, you know, there. But there's something to it that they're pulling for us, man. And in, in a wild way that all the saints are looking forward to seeing. All the Saints, you know, that'd be awesome.

[Joby Martin]

Yeah, I do think.

[Guest Pastor]

And Jesus will be the like and everybody but oh, it's good to see it. And then Jesus, you know, he's going to be the one that commands the attention. You know, it's like, let's go.

[Joby Martin]

I think about the 60 something people that raise their hand tonight and the, the, the way they're the generations following their family tree can change. You know what I mean?

[Guest Pastor]

Totally.

[Brett]

I think in music sometimes because I, I've listened to a lot of music. There's a song. You remember this song? You remember the band Big Tent Revival?

[Guest Pastor]

I do.

[Joby Martin]

Oh yeah.

[Brett]

They had a song called Two Sets of Jones.

[Guest Pastor]

I remember it.

[Brett]

And it's like they made up this little story about these two couples and they were supposed to personify the house on the rock and the house on the sand. You know, like I remember it right now.

[Joby Martin]

Maybe you could put a link in the show notes.

[Brett]

I will definitely. It's going to be a.

[Guest Pastor]

At that stage of my life, I was far more Counting Crows Mystery Jones. But I do know what you're talking about.

[Brett]

I hope the music video is awesome. I don't know if it is, but.

[Joby Martin]

Oh, it's Christian music from the 90s. I'm sure it's incredible.

[Brett]

I'm sure it's amazing. With lots of hair gel. Jesus talks about hearing his words and then doing them, which is building your house on the rock. So could we unpack the house, the rock and the storms and the fall

[Joby Martin]

so you could listen to this? You could have been there tonight. Or even better, you could have been on the. The hillside north of the Galilee and heard the sermon and mood and Amen. And receive divine revelation. Every time you heard Jesus preaching, you were receiving divine revelation. You could have had inspiration, you could have had new information. But if you don't have application, it doesn't matter. So if you don't put your faith in Jesus, even if you just try to apply the activities without changing your identity, then the house may look great. And that's the trouble, man. Like, it's hard to see the foundation of a house from the curb. And it's hard to see the foundation of a life from the stage. And that's it. The are you poor in spirit? Have you turned the reins of your life over To Christ.

[Brett]

What does it look like for a person to dig through the shallow sand of their life to find the rock?

[Joby Martin]

Well, it first and foremost starts with what do you. I think what's happening right now in a lot of people's lives is they're actually building their life on the sinking sand of either self, like self improvement or stuff. They're just chasing after the American dream or sensuality, some kind of feeling. And it can be sex, rising, rock and roll, whatever, okay. Or relationship, whatever that thing is. And then they start going to church and they hear about Jesus and then they just try to decorate the inside of their house with Jesus Trink. And so to dig through the sand is. Is he enough? Like, do you know him? Do you love him? Have you. Have you built your life on the gospel of Jesus, not your good works? You're not even trying to do it so that your kids turn out better. It's not that. It's. I'm a sinner that needs a savior and I'm trusting Christ. Finished work for that. And that is the foundation. Now. You don't stop there. You still love your wife and raise your kids and work really hard, but the found the bedrock of it is not Jesus. I would like to invite you into the guest room of my house. And occasionally I'm g. Come see you once a week. And I like you. You know, we're going to play your favorite music and if you could give me some advice on how to get my husband to act right, and if you could tighten up these kids and I'll tip you a little bit and then maybe you hook. You know, dude, that is. That's like a. I'm going to invite you as a guest into my house. Listen. In Revelation 3:20, behold, I stand at the door. Knock. It really dawned on me the first time. I was in Africa and I was in Kenya and somebody invited me into their home. There was only one room. It was not like our houses. There was not a foyer and then a living room and a kit. There was just one room. And in the first century, most people lived in like a one room kind of place. So when Jesus knocks and you say, I want you to come in and take over the whole thing, that's what C.S. lewis says. He's like, I don't. Christ doesn't want to just like take out a branch here or there. He just. He wants it. He wants to uproot your entire life and give you a new life, which is him. That's what it looks like to dig through the sand. Go ahead.

[Guest Pastor]

I was just. Sand comes and goes. You know, that's the nature of sand on the shores that it's. It comes and goes. Rocks are. Don't move. I mean, that's. That is like. Are you the immovable object of the gospel of Jesus Christ? The authority of scripture, the reality of God?

[Joby Martin]

The.

[Guest Pastor]

It goes back to kind of the objective, subjective thing. Like, if your life is lived subject to things that come and go, like feelings or fleeting desires, then when the wind blows, you're going to get tossed around. Yeah, but the rocks don't move. Storms don't move rocks. You know what I mean?

[Brett]

And.

[Guest Pastor]

And the gospel is an objective revelation. It is objective truth.

[Brett]

And so you ever drive in certain parts of the country on the highway and, you know, they dig to make roads, but then there's these one. There's these spots where there's bedrock, and it's like, well, you ain't moving that, you know, and it's sticking. Kind of sticking out at a weird angle because they're just like, well, what. What can we do about that? Nothing. It's not moving for sure. That's the image that came to my mind. You gave all those examples, Pastor Joby, about the things that we try to fill our lives with. And I think that's a great point of reflection. Especially somebody who's unfamiliar with the whole idea of pursuing Jesus. Maybe they never. They've never had that thought. Like, my life is about something. What is it? You know? And if you. If you Google greatest movies of all time, chances are number one. Inception.

[Guest Pastor]

No,

[Brett]

Chances are number one.

[Guest Pastor]

Throw you off there, old buddy.

[Brett]

Chances are number one is.

[Joby Martin]

Hold on.

[Guest Pastor]

I love this game.

[Brett]

Wizard of Oz, Citizen Kane is. Is. Is.

[Guest Pastor]

Often there's not one person listening right now who would agree that Citizen Kane is the greatest movie of all time.

[Brett]

I'm just saying, like, what is. If you just Google what is considered the great. One of the greatest movies of all time.

[Guest Pastor]

Brave Heart.

[Brett]

In Citizen, the story is a guy who becomes fabulously wealthy, but loses every relationship in his life. And the end of the movie is, he's built this. I'm talking, like, bigger than the Biltmore House mansion. And it's just full of stuff.

[Guest Pastor]

Did they rip out his gust and him scream freedom?

[Joby Martin]

Then it's not as good. Yeah. And he's crying out for his little sled. Right. And the sled's burning.

[Guest Pastor]

That's right.

[Brett]

Yeah.

[Joby Martin]

What was it called?

[Brett]

Red Rosebud.

[Joby Martin]

Rosebud. But I thought of that because. Not as good though, as Braveheart. But I hear what you're saying.

[Brett]

I thought when you were talking and you're like, you can surround yourself with all this stuff and it's just completely meaningless. If that's what you're building your life on.

[Joby Martin]

Here's the, here's the tricky thing of the enemy now. If you build your life on sex with not your wife, it's. You're going to torch it immediately. And if you build it on drugs and alcohol, you're going to torch it immediately. The problem is there's a lot of things that aren't bad things. Like you could pursue fitness and you honestly should be a good steward of the temple that God has given you so that you can love the Lord your God with all your strength. But if you worship at the foot of it, it will let you down. That's the thing. You should love your wife as Christ loved the church. But if you worship her, she can't bear the weight of worship and she will let you down. If you worship your children, you should love your children and discipline your children. And I mean there ain't no pain like kid pain because there's no love like kid love. But if you try to treat them like they are the savior of the universe, not only will your life be shattered, you're going to shatter them too. That's the thing we should. God gave us work to enjoy. We're co creators with God. That matters like crazy. Which everything we should do, we do. We should work as unto the Lord. And yet if you pursue your vocation as your identity, then when you don't do what you used to do, who are you? That's the trickiness of the enemy. You go to church, it matters. A disconnected body part dies. If your identity is a church person instead of in Christ, you will be totally let down. You'll either look down your nose and think you're better than everybody else and you'll be bitter because they're not sacrificing like you are. Or you'll just be so exhausted because you can't keep up. That's the trickiness of building your life on the sand

[Brett]

and, and the brilliance of all the things that he's saying because. And we get tripped up on. Well, is it, Is it action? Is it not action? Is it. This is. No, it's like it's motive.

[Joby Martin]

Yeah. And it's order.

[Brett]

It's order, it's worship. It's motive. Well, this ends with this comment from Matthew that everybody was astonished at Jesus's authority.

[Joby Martin]

Yeah. That's a rabbi talk because I can't remember remember at all. But you had to have like a priest and you had to have people in authority that could tell you if you had a new teaching. And so what you would do as a Talmudine is you would follow a rabbi. And the things that they taught were called their yoke. So when Jesus says, my yoke is easy, my burden is light. And everybody talks about the oxen thing, that's not what he's talking about. It was like, it was actually like a scroll. And it was like, here's what my teacher said about the Sabbath and look how laborious it is. So he must be deep. And Jesus is like, well mine is just written right here, like I'm not adding to it. And my yoke, like what you have to do is receive the gift of eternal life. It's pretty easy. Like you receive the gift now, it's hard to live out. But so this was new. This is. He is not repeating what other people have said. He's taken the law of Moses from Mount Sinai and now with authority, he is telling us what the new covenant is. That's what this is.

[Brett]

I've heard it said that Jesus's teaching is self verifying because he's the author. Right? I mean, what, what do you think of when you think of teaching with authority from Jesus?

[Guest Pastor]

I think that the Sermon on the Mount, specifically, if you do evangelistic ministry in context where with other religions, the Sermon on the Mount is one of the best tools that you can use to get gospel discussion going with people who would subscribe to a completely different religion. Because in it, if you read it, and even if you don't know anything about Jesus Christ of Nazareth, if you read it, you go, not, not a normal human said this. If you just look at it through straight human lenses, you're like this T. This is a different kind of teaching. And so I think on even the most carnal human levels, it reveals that there is what C. S Lewis would point out as the deeper magic, that there is a deeper magic at work within this man. If you would use those words there. And for us we would say that there is a supernatural wisdom being revealed through the God man, Jesus Christ. And so I, I think there's a huge part of that that is just the incarnate reality of the image of God himself. The, the exact imprint, as Hebrews would say, saying words out loud that were his idea when he authored him in heaven and when he created the world to operate in a certain way. Like, I don't want to get too weird about it. Like, but Jesus, Jesus, he is the one who, like, there was. There's nothing he can't see. And so there's no dusty veil, there's no fogged up mirrors, you know what I mean? And so he's just piercing through time and space and fallen creation with his words. And so you wrap all that up.

[Joby Martin]

I think that's my 9, 11 comment.

[Guest Pastor]

Yeah, that's right.

[Joby Martin]

If you came from the future to the past, you know what happens if you go to work tomorrow. You showed up on 910 at the Twin Towers. You have seen the future. Jesus has seen the end from the beginning. And he's saying, there's some of you that are building your. Pharisees wrote it.

[Guest Pastor]

He wrote it.

[Joby Martin]

Yeah, yeah, Pharisees, religious people. That's specifically what he's talking about. Primarily, that's the false teachers who's, you know, the wide way leads to destruction and you're. You're building your life on a sinking sand of your own activities.

[Guest Pastor]

One thought I had tonight in that vein was because it says that he taught us one who had the authority not as their scribes. And I think that primarily is in reference to what you were talking about in regards to how the different rabbi structures approved this teaching or that teaching. But I was trying, I was trying to think do is. At any point during the Gospel accounts, do we see scribes make statements or do we only ever see them ask questions? You see Pharisees make statements.

[Joby Martin]

Yeah, they would lump up sometimes, it

[Guest Pastor]

says the scribes and Pharisees, which is

[Joby Martin]

crazy because like, kind of different political parties and they're starting to like lump up together because they have a common enemy in Jesus. Especially when the Pharisees and Sadducees get together, they were like mortal political enemies theologically. And they would, they would lump in together. Yeah, yeah.

[Guest Pastor]

The thought I was running down in my mind is that the scribes often are ones asking questions.

[Joby Martin]

Yeah.

[Guest Pastor]

It's like if you're always in the position where you're asking questions and every. Everything's under suspicion, but you never take a stand, then you don't have very much authority. Like, there is. There is authority in having a resolved conviction.

[Joby Martin]

There are people that hide behind that too.

[Guest Pastor]

Yep.

[Joby Martin]

Back to the false prophet we brought up earlier, Rob Bell and Velvet Elvis. When I read Velvet Elvis because Stone was with me and I was like, this dude's a heretic. He's like, what? And I was like, he. Because he says things like, is Your entire faith just built upon some of these accounts. What if Mary wasn't a virgin? I was like, you're a heretic. You're not asking. You're making a declarative statement. Because all. If you just keep doing that. Well, I'm just asking. I'm just asking. No, you are making statements by not making a statement. And you were on Sinking Sand. Yeah.

[Guest Pastor]

I can't remember if you said the law or if he said, theology is like a trampoline.

[Joby Martin]

Oh, yeah.

[Guest Pastor]

And we need it to be a little stable on the outside, but it's really flexible inside and you can moving around. I was like, that's what we want. We want the law to be flat. We'd love for the law to be a trans trampoline.

[Joby Martin]

You know, who loves, but it's not. It's a conqueror in the last days that would like their ears to be tickled. Yeah, they love some trampoline theology.

[Brett]

Well, it says that the crowds were astonished because he was teaching with authority. Do you think that's something that they could sense? Like, And. And. And is a person who goes and hears somebody preach, like, are they supposed to have, like, oh, this is with authority? And what's that experience supposed to be like?

[Joby Martin]

If. So it all goes back to the first statement. The poor in spirit, people that were in the presence of the Savior. Something's just clicking and ticking, man. Yeah, that's different.

[Brett]

Yeah. It goes back to the appeal part. Right. Like, if you're blind, you won't see it, but if you. If you recognize the authority, because the call is not actually coming from you, it's coming through you.

[Joby Martin]

Correct.

[Brett]

And that authoritative call is authoritative. When somebody goes, that's me.

[Joby Martin]

Yeah, man. The false prophet is the guy that has some sort of special revelation that is not in alignment with the word of God.

[Brett]

Yeah.

[Joby Martin]

There's no new revelation. There's illumination of what God has said.

[Guest Pastor]

Amen.

[Brett]

Well, it's been a great journey through the Sermon on the Mount and kind of just getting started in Matthew. And so we're about to see some demon.

[Joby Martin]

Are you ready for a miracle? Ready as I can be.

[Brett]

Getting whooped up on and all kind of other stuff. So I'm excited about that. Pastor Joby, close us with whatever else you got before we pray.

[Joby Martin]

I hope and pray folks have ears to hear.

[Guest Pastor]

Amen.

[Brett]

Yes.

[Joby Martin]

Again, the only thing more dangerous than not having the assurance of your salvation is having a false assurance of your salvation. So if you have never put your faith in Christ, or maybe you were raised in a denomination that taught you that activity preceded identity. And there was some activity your parents did for you that somehow put you in a state of grace. That sink, he's saying, man, that's what that is.

[Brett]

And it's not a feeling.

[Joby Martin]

No. The good news of the gospel is, have you surrendered your life to the lordship of Christ? If not, you should do that right now. You should pray right now. There's no magical incantation. There's no sinner's prayer in the Bible. There is a surrender of your will to him and say, I admit it. I'm a sinner. I believe when Christ died on the cross, that counted for me. I believe in my heart God raised him out of the grave. And so I'm going to confess with my mouth. Jesus is my Lord. Not just say Lord, Lord, like words in a song at church, but call on the name of the Lord and say, I'm going to submit, surrender, align my life with the character nature of the Savior Jesus Christ. So I hope you do it right now.

[Guest Pastor]

Amen.

[Brett]

Amen.

[Joby Martin]

Father in heaven, may we build our lives on the solid rock of the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Amen.

[Guest Pastor]

Saving Private Ryan thank you for listening

[Brett]

to the podcast the End.

[Joby Martin]

You nailed it.

[Pastor Joby Martin]

The reality is everything already belongs to God, and when we give financially, we're acknowledging that we trust him. If you just watch this and feel led to make a donation, text the word donate to 441-122 or visit coe22.com donate. Your generosity is not only an act of worship, but an investment so all people can discover and deepen a relationship with.