B (2:20)

Yeah, it's wild.

C (2:22)

Like my kids are walking with the Lord and, and like us, like they both our kids came to us. We got back from a trip that we'd been gone and. And our kids came to us and said we're not spending enough time together. Mom and dad, we need to do more family stuff as a 20 year old dream, isn't it?

B (2:38)

It is.

C (2:39)

Okay, well, you know, we normally when we're just sitting in the living room by ourselves while y', all, you know, so you might have to come out of your rooms and come see us. But we appreciate the sentiment. Right. So that's my initial reaction. Then I start to get, and Charles's sermon will get all into this. This kind of messes with my head a little bit. I don't know. It's my favorite, but it's the heaviest. So God is not like a dad. He's like an eagle, you know what I mean? And he's like, there's all these similes to try to explain God.

D (3:12)

That's right.

C (3:12)

But he just is Father, right? There's one God in three persons. God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And for however many years you get to be one of these things. He allows us his title. Like he doesn't make up a different title. It's not like Junior dad or Junior Father, you know what I mean? Viceroy or whatever it would be. And so there's a heaviness there that I think about a lot. And the primary imprint of God on my children will be me. Even though it's not fair because Gretchen spends way more time with them and I can't make it up. But it's just in the creation order that I'm going to be the greatest influence on those two humans lives. And I love them so much and don't want to mess it up. So.

D (4:04)

We have three boys. They're now 28, 25 and 22. And when I was growing up, my dad, my dad would always hug me. And he was all, he would always kiss me. And I just grew up with my dad kissing me. I know that's not a lot of guys experience, but it was mine. My dad kissed me 10,000 times every time I saw him. I'd hug him and he'd just kiss me. It just was our thing. And I don't know, I just started, you know, doing that with my boys, obviously when they're young, but I just didn't want to. I didn't want them to ever feel like I was withholding emotion or affection or even in front of their friends. I would just hug them and just, you know, kiss them. Maybe I got it from Luke 15 because I believe when it says in Luke 15, when the Father met the son, it says he kissed him. That's actually I think a bad translation. I think the better translation, he covered his face in kisses. So I've just always done that. And now, even at this age, they greet me and they kiss me. And so it's this thing, like, when we do that, when I hug my boys, and they're big, old, strong, they're all stronger than me now. They're all taller than me, all stronger than me, but they have this tenderness that I love, and they all say, hey, Pops. They started that years ago. And, hey, Pops. And so that's one of the things I love.

B (5:27)

Yeah, that's good. Did y' all have a moment? Maybe many moments, but where in fatherhood, you had that overwhelming sense of this is what God's love is like? Like, is there a moment you remember maybe early on or maybe recent, where you were just overwhelmed by that light bulb feeling of like, this is a picture of God's love.

C (5:51)

You've heard the story a thousand times. But when. When the. I was in that hotel in Atlanta and it caught on fire, like, for real fire, and Reagan was up top. That's the moment when you get for. I got for God. So love the world that what would it take for me to get her? And the answer is what? It does not matter. I mean, the idea of walking through a fire would be no problem if that's what it took to get her. And then, you know, you reflect upon that and you're like, oh, my gosh, actually, I've told this to a bunch of people. My whole Bible changed when I became a dad. Every. Of course you run after your child when he comes home and you cover his face with kisses and you wrap the robe around him and put sandals on his feet and throw a party. Of course you do. You would go lay in the pig pen if that's what it took to get him home. Of course, you know, and so. Or of course, in Mark, chapter nine, you would just try to get your kid to Jesus and say, I believe. Help my unbelief. Like, maybe if this works, please help us. Everything changes in regards to my understanding of who God is when I became a father.

D (7:02)

I think some of the moments that I look back on with our boys, where I felt the strongest fatherly love for them was often in times of hardship. And, I mean, when things are great, you're sort of, you know, you're riding the wave of whatever that is. But when things are really hard and you. You can't fix their problem, you can't fix their life. I remember I was on book Tour. This has been 10 years ago, and Charlie was in high school and having a rough time with some stuff and called me one morning crying. And I'm driving down I10 west out in Louisiana somewhere. I can't help my son. And I, you know, I pray for him and I love on him. And I remember hanging up and just, I. I want to do. There's nothing I wouldn't do. There's. There's nothing, but I can't fix it. So I just had to lean into the Lord and there were a bunch of tears and all the things. And, you know, when you asked that question, I remembered a moment with Reeves. We were at Kingsley Lake. Reeves had. He didn't have asthma as a kid, but he had what they called a reactive airway, which acts the same way. So when he would get a cold or something, his airway would sort of close up and he would sound real hoarse. And then if he started coughing, it would close, and there's no air going in or out. And one night, in the middle of the night, Christine and I laying there listening to him breathe, and he stopped, and we literally got up and ran and threw him in my truck. And it's the only time I've ever used OnStar. I didn't know where I'm going. I'm driving out the driveway at 100 miles an hour, and I said, the lady. I pressed OnStar and the lady said, Mr. Martin, how can I help you? And I said, I need to get to the closest. Closest to emergency room. She said, turn left. And we ended up at Shands Gainesville. And we get in there, they're expecting. She called ahead. It was crazy. It was this awesome thing. We get in there, he's having trouble, and eventually they give him some steroids. And I remember laying on the floor. I'm in the emergency room. We have a sort of a room about like this, and Reeves is in bed and hooked up to a bunch of stuff. And he's pretty tough, so he's like. He's breathing, but it doesn't sound too great. Christie's over there in a chair, and I'm laying on the floor of the hospital, and I'm having a really vigorous conversation with the Lord. And my conversation is, lord, if you'll just put. Just put air in my son's lungs, just because I can hear him. And he stops, and then he starts and stops and the whole thing, and it's. I can't. I'm powerless. So I think those moments of hardship sort of come back because when everything's great, of course you love them. But it's, I think the, the times that are hard that, I don't know, they bring it out and test you. I'm not sure.

B (9:46)

Well, this goes right in line with what you're going to preach on the scandalous thing that it would have been to, for Jesus to start to unpack this intimate relationship that we get to have with God as father. So why was this such a scandalous thing in first century Israel that Jesus would have started to call God?

D (10:08)

The Pharisees had incorrectly translated or looked at how or taken their understanding of a scripture in Leviticus and said, it's blasphemous for you to claim to be the son of God. That's what the law said. But they had taken it and they will later point that at Jesus. The first time we see this is Jesus is 12 years old. His family, Mary and Joseph, go to Passover. They're there a couple days, they celebrate the Passover. They leave. They get all the way outside of Jerusalem, a day's journey, which if you've ever been there, means they walk downhill for an entire day. Mary looks at Joseph and says, gee, honey, have you seen Jesus? He says, no, I thought he was with you. Makes me feel better about the one time we did leave one of our sons someplace. They turn around, walk up, back uphill, and then it says, three days later, think about Mary. They finally find him, it says, in the temple. But I think he was probably on the southern steps of the temple because that's where all the religious elite met and had their conversation. Same place where Saul held the clothes for a young martyr later named Stephen. And he's sitting there holding court with all these religious elite. And they're astounded at his answers. And Mary comes up to him and says, son, did you not know that we would be looking for you? And it says in Scripture, Jesus is surprised. And he looks at him, he says, did you not know that I must be about my father's business. It's the first time a rabbi has ever used the word father for God. The people looking at him are like, who you? You're nuts. Well, 20 years from that weekend, 20 years from that, 21 years from that weekend, these same men will gather on this same mountain and they'll kill the man that the man that boy becomes. Why? Because they have a law and he claims to be the son of God, which he actually was. Jesus is the, is the, is the one that causes them, challenges them with this idea that God is your father and no rabbi would have done this. And he says it over 165 times in the Gospels as recorded in the Gospels. I think he probably said it more. But this is what we have in the recorded in the scriptures. If you and I just said this before we were recording, if you chat GPT the recorded words of Jesus and ask one of the AI whatevers, what did Jesus say the most? Take out the word A and the what did he say the most? It will come back and it'll say father. He talked more about the Father than, than anything the kingdom, than money, anything. Why is the question? Well, he's trying to show us that God is not that angry God out there. He's your and my father. Obviously. They ask him, they say, lord, teach us to pray. Well, what's the first thing he says? The disciples are shell shocked when Jesus starts with our father. Philip later says, lord, show us the father. Jesus says, philip, have I been with you so long? If you've seen me, you've seen the Father. So he is doing something that no rabbi would have done. And he's able to do it because he is the Son of God. But he's inviting us back into a relationship that was lost in the garden. The thing, the intimacy that was fractured when Adam and Eve chose a rival king and a rival kingdom. God the Father has always been heartbroken about that. But he's not a tyrant. He's not going to make you choose him.

C (13:35)

Yeah, the only time in the Old Testament the Father is used a few times, but it was only the Father of a nation, like the way God talks about Abraham, you know, not personal. And so this is a new covenant, a new and better covenant, to use Jeremiah's words. And Moses brought the law and Jesus brings grace. And it's just like Charles is saying that the thing that got interrupted when sin entered the world was the father child relationship between God the Father and Adam and Eve. And so Jesus came to restore.

B (14:13)

Can you talk a little bit about. And you'll unpack this in the sermon. But how we. The words are so important that are used. So you talk a lot about abba and, and so let's talk about what that means and the distinction between abba and the other word for father, which was pater. Yeah.

D (14:33)

All right, we see this, this is, this was difficult for me to understand when I first started sort of backing into this because the Greeks came along translating the New Testament and they looked at the words of Jesus. And so anytime the Greeks looked at him and understood he said the word father. They, they translated it to, to be pater. P A T E R. Well, that's not what Jesus said. Jesus said abba. That's the Hebrew. Pater is the Greek. Well, they mean two different things. Pater is a description of what someone is. That person is a father. It's a correct description. But abba, there's an intimacy and a knowingness and an ownership with Abba, Abba is both pater, that's what someone is. And it's, he is my father. There's, there's an intimacy there. So Jesus, every time he says this is drawing people into a relationship that the Father wants restored. The Greeks don't understand that they're a godless society. So the thought of them being submitted to God, the Father was totally foreign to them. Well, in the Hebrew language, it's very much embedded in the language, which is why you see this. I think in, I don't know, I get the scriptures confused. But Jesus says, in the scriptures, when we see Jesus say abba, Father, I don't think that's actually what he said. I think he said abba. I think the reason it's there, abba, Father. This is my opinion. I think the reason it's there, abba, Father, is because the translator is giving us a signal saying we don't really have a word that translates directly for that one. So we're giving you the closest one that we have, which is pater. But in truth, he said abba, and that's a different thing entirely. Now there are folks who have come along and said, well, it's a little bit like Daddy. Well, I understand the correlation, I understand the intimacy there, but that's not actually true. ABBA is much more. At the end of the day, when Jesus is saying the word abba, there's a deeper motivation than anything that Pater gets at Jesus. Motivation. His heart in saying abba is rooted in obedience. Every time he says abba, what he is actually saying is, father, I will obey you. That's a marked difference than the Greek father.

B (16:56)

So as crazy as this would have been for first century people to hear, we misunderstand this all the time too. So how do we oftentimes not have a right understanding of God as father ourselves?

C (17:11)

Well, like I was saying before, things kind of makes me nervous, as it should about carrying the weight of such a title, is that we have the greatest impact on the way our kids see the Lord, you know, and the reality that you have to come to is that your Earthly father is not a reflection of the heavenly Father.

D (17:32)

Our enemy would like to think he.

C (17:34)

Is correct, but the God is the perfection of what the word abba means. And, man, you know, I don't. The older I get, the less shade I want to throw at any. But dad, you know, I mean, there's some bad ones out there. There's no doubt about it. But, like, I didn't have the most affectionate dad growing up, but he's a good dad, man. I mean, he showed up. He. You know, he did all the things. But then what you can begin to hear and think is. I mean, look, you just know the words, you know. So when you're in 10th grade and you hear the God's your father, well, then your mind just goes to father and be like, well, that's one. So is he like this one? And so I think there's a lot of things we assume upon God as father based on our earthly experience and based. Especially based on our Western experience. I think there's a lot. A lot of the criticism that, you know, today's generation might make about God has to do with what they expect from a father, you know, as. As opposed to coming with fear and grace. You know, it's like, wow, the king of the universe, who ought to rightly judge me, has adopted me as his own. It's more like, well, you're my dad, and I didn't ask to be created. So here's what you owe me. You owe me whatever health you owe me, happiness you owe me. And. And that is a very, very misguided Western way to see the sovereign king of the universe who also is father. Does that make sense?

B (18:57)

Yeah.

D (18:58)

One of the things I stumbled upon when I was working on this way back when, when you start unpacking the. The. The definitions for abba, and it's actually just two letters. It's. And I don't. I'm not a Greek. I'm a Hebrew scholar. But it's. It's basically just A and B. And when you say the ab, you have to get out of it. So you end up saying ba. It's abba. It could very well be the first word on all of our tongues and our lips when we were born. But when. When. When I was trying to figure out what it really means, and you get into several layers of meaning. I was reminded of a story or an event in my life with Christie is the boys are babies. I don't know if it was John T. Or Charlie, but, you know, the whole nursing thing is difficult, and it's not going great. And Christie's up in the middle of the night. And I remember several nights where she would, you know, I can't help her. I would. I would like to, but I can't. I'm just saying, laying there, listening to the baby cry. And she's frustrated. And after, you know, however long an hour or two, she finally walks in and she basically hands me this crying, peeing, pooping, screaming nutcase and says, here, you do something with him. So I get up and strip him down and change his diaper. And we would go outside and lay down on the sofa, and they're struggling and tossing, and I would take my shirt off, lay down on the sofa, and I would grab my son and kind of cradle them in my arms and pull their knees up under their chest and kind of, you know, make them that little ball. And they would sort of fight whatnot. And then eventually they'd sort of lay down and relax, and they would invariably tuck their nose right in here to the nape of my neck. And after some period of time, they would go to sleep. It didn't happen all the time, but more often than not, that happened. And Christie would walk out in the morning, and I'm asleep on the sofa or sort of asleep, and our boy is, you know, snotting all over me, asleep. And she says, you know, she looks at herself and she's like, I have the stuff, and I can't do that. Why is that? Well, somewhere in this. And she could. But somewhere in this period of time, I stumbled upon. One of the definitions for Abba is I long for your scent. And I think that when my boy. I don't know. I don't know what it was, but when they, like, knew it was me or something, they would settle and they would go to sleep. I can't explain that, but I do know that it is true. I was sitting at our fire pit. The thing that got me thinking about all this was this past January 1st, I woke up at our farm. I'm sitting in our fire pit by myself. And I felt like the Lord asked me a question. I didn't hear him audibly, but I felt like the lord. And I'm 50. I'll be 56 next month. I've known the Lord a long time. Doesn't mean I've always been obedient, but I know better, and I know Him. And I felt like he asked me, charles, when you think of me, do you think of me as your father? And you can hear the answer. In my answer, I said, well, yes, Lord. You know that. I do. Well, he's not coming down on me because I look at him as my Lord. Obviously not. He is that, but he was trying to get past that. Because you can have a Lord, but not a father. That's called a slave. It can be a slave. Not necessarily, but it can be. And I felt like the Lord was calling me into a place of intimacy with himself that I was just not pressing into. So the time between then and now, the Lord has done a thing in my heart where oftentimes when I pray now, I start with abba. It's crazy. I know you've heard this. We've walked the old city of Jerusalem together. And when you walk through the Jewish quarter, the mothers and fathers will go get their children, or they'll be walking to wherever, and the children running behind the father will say, abba, Abba. It's. And it's the first time I heard it absolutely stopped me, because that's exactly what Jesus would have said at that. At that age to. To Joseph.

B (23:17)

Pastor Joby. One thing I value about the way you frame things up is you're. You're never picking the extremes of things. So, like. And I think this example of misunderstanding God as father is perfect. Like you saying, we live in a time. Rebecca Maxwell actually just told me it's like a millennial downfall is that us millennials want to write off our parents for small things. Like, we'll remember one thing that our parents said, and we want to chalk them up to failures or whatever. You know, like, blame them for all of our problems, for sure. And one thing I just love about how you approach the world typically is both. And we've talked about this lots on the podcast. And so I think your example is really good. Like, did your dad do everything right? No. Did any of our dads?

C (24:11)

No.

B (24:12)

That's not the point. Nobody has a perfect dad or mom. But you can pick out the things that helped you put together a picture of God. Now, why is it important? I know you said it's not a true. It's not an example of God as father, because God is the perfect father. But it does help draw lines and connections and understanding to who God is as father. So why is it important that when we evaluate our earthly father, we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater and just chalk it all up? Like, oh, I had a terrible childhood. Life was so hard. How do we look back and pull the things out that can help us understand God?

C (24:55)

Yeah, community helps a lot because a lot of people that think they had a terrible childhood are some of the most blessed humans who have ever lived. Because they had plenty of food to eat. They just didn't get enough hugs, Their dad didn't let them sleep on their chest, and they didn't get breastfed. And they're like, you know. And then there's some people that absolutely had torturous upbringings, like literally, you know, abuse and those kind of things. You know, faith is the reason. The reason I do that I. That I choose to remember. The way I choose to remember is the book of Hebrews, the Hall of faith. Have you read the hall of Faith? It says by faith. And then it'll say some person from the Old Testament, and then it'll say what they did. But then you actually read the Old Testament, you're like, that's not exactly how that went down at all, dude. By faith, Barak did whatever. By faith, he didn't do nothing. Right. He was a loser anyway. So what I see is like this redacted gospel history where you don't let the enemy have the last word, and you get to determine what's what, stones you scatter and which ones you gather together. And listen, man, my dad walks with the Lord now. He's awesome. When he became a granddad, he got so soft. He's so kind and like, tells my kids, today's his birthday. Actually, today's his birthday. Yeah. And so seems to be these sweet, encouraging texts. That was not the case, you know, growing up. He was right, and he was very performance driven. And that definitely shaped the way I saw the Lord. But it does not take a mountain of maturity to begin to delineate between your earthly father and what the scripture clearly says that your heavenly father is. So I think what's actually happening most of the time is just a straight cop out on any generation that tries to blame their current behavior on anybody else. Suck it up, buttercup. Okay. I mean, seriously, man. We like even the word trauma. I know it's a real thing, but I guess it got invented recently. We didn't have trauma. We got the crap beat out of us in the neighborhood. And then you just came home and ate dinner with a scabbed up elbow. What happened? Timmy beat me up again. We're going to the police. Nah, I'll probably play with him tomorrow. He called me the most awful things you get arrested for hate speech in Europe right now over this stuff. And he was just a kid in your neighborhood. So things have definitely you know, changed. But be very, very careful that you're not abdicating your.

D (27:26)

The.

C (27:26)

The consequences of your own decisions and you're just laying that blame on somebody else.

B (27:33)

Yeah.

C (27:33)

And that's what happens, man. I mean, to blame is to be lame. That's what it is. Like, the lamest thing you can do is not take responsibility for your own walk with the Lord, man, and try to lay that upon somebody else. That. Honestly, part of the reasons I don't throw shade on my mom and dad, dude, if I walked in their shoes, right?

B (27:49)

Yeah.

C (27:50)

I'd probably make the same decisions they did. I mean, you know, and. And I get it. There will be. Listen, man, if JP And Reagan want to torch me one day, they will be able to. The amount of evidence. And I. I'm real serious about the Jesus thing. Very. But the amount of times I've lost it and said things that we can put pressure on them and is the amount of evidence that they could. They could convict me on and have me crucified as the worst dad ever is, is you just can't even list it all. And yet they love God and they love me, and the only way that's possible is because of grace.

B (28:29)

Yeah.

C (28:30)

And so we're supposed to be grace people, man. So you need to give our folks some grace.

D (28:34)

I have bumped into all kind of when anytime I've taught something similar to this. It was recently in the last year, I had a lady come up to me afterward and she was just teary and she real honest and she said, I want what you are saying. I want to know God as my father. But my father did horrible things to me and I understand what she's saying and I get it. And I just hugged her and prayed for her, and I get it. Those are very real wounds. I'm not making light of them at all. And the only one who can get through that and heal that is the Holy Spirit. Had a lady who had a lady who her father would pull on her skin with pliers. Just horrible stuff. And she forgave him, you know, and later in life, now there were some really healthy boundaries. So. But she forgave him, you know, and the Lord, through the power of the Holy Spirit, did a healing in her heart, and she really fell in love with the Father as the father. So look, most all the guys in my Bible study have some aspect of a father wound. Most of us guys do. We just do. And the enemy wants to just beat us like a whipping post with that wound and cause us to equate. Earthly father with heavenly Father and it's a powerful weapon in his toolbox. But it is a lie from the pit of hell because our dads are just all broken men who walk with limp, just like us. Some loved us. Well, some didn't. But the thing I would say to anybody out there who's like Charles, I hear what you're saying, but it's too far of a stretch for me. I get it. I'm not making light of your wound, I promise. But the Holy Spirit is the one. Just ask the Holy Spirit, just tell him, like, look, this is hard for me. I want this. But there's a mountain of a pus filled wound there that we got to get around. And he's faithful and he will and he will lead you. That's his job.

C (30:36)

Yeah, I think the problem with this, the problem with the father wound is you make an idol out of it. You give it too much power and you know how to take all the power away from it, nail it to the cross. I mean, it has been defeated, it has been defamed. There's no weapon formed against me. Whatever the most brutal thing that your dad could do to you. And I'm telling you, sexual abuse has got to be the worst or something like that, right?

D (30:58)

Okay.

C (30:59)

And then Paul would have the audacity to say, you're going to call that light and momentary as compared to the glory of God. So the problem is like in our over therapeutic world is people focus way too. Now, again, I'm talking about kind of normal on the bell curve of fathers where perfect is over here and criminal is over here. Most of us, right, we're kind of somewhere in the thick part of that bell curve. All right? Most of us, if you get all wrapped around the axle of what your dad did or didn't do, you have given too much power to the past and too much power to the scars in your life. And you're allowing the enemy to have the loudest voice in the scars of your life instead of Jesus, who was actually defined by his scars. Yeah, I mean, bro, don't you think Joseph had a couple family matters he could complain about? You'll think domestic violence and human trafficking are traumatizing. And he credited it to God who intended it for the salvation of Israel. He's doing pretty good. And his dad has some jacked up stuff too. If you got a favorite kid, don't tell anybody. Can lead to terrible relationships between the siblings.

D (32:12)

Yeah.

C (32:13)

So, you know, now those people, on that bell curve of actual trauma I don't mean your feelings got hurt, but I'm talking about like physical stuff. Physical, sexual.

B (32:24)

Yep.

C (32:24)

There could be some verbal abuse, that kind of stuff for sure. Then go see a pro. You mentioned Rebecca. She is the pro of pros, you know, to help you navigate that stuff. But the reason that you navigate that stuff is so that you can live a healthy, mature life full of forgiveness and close relationships with people. Not to give you language as an excuse to wrap a blanket around you so you don't ever get close to anybody anymore. The enemy would love for that to be, to be the reality.

D (32:54)

Yeah, this is sort of a, I don't know, sideways jump. But let's just pause a second and I mean we in the evangelical world know, we, we know all the, the words and the sermons and we've. We know the gospel. Jesus came to save sinners among whom I am chief. He came to satisfy the wrath of God, to make propitiation for our sins, to destroy the works of the devil to. These are the things to shed his blood, to ransom captive mankind. These are the things that he did. They are facts. Yes, he absolutely did do them. And I thank God that he did do them. But the question is, why did he do them? Did he just, did he just shed his blood so I could just punch my ticket out of hell? Did he do it so he could just park me on a cloud, feed me bon bons and let me sing Kumbaya and then shoot arrows at unsuspecting lovers? Is that the reason for Jesus? Well, we got to ask. When we look at these things that he did, let's ask the question, why did he do them? Jesus gives us the answer in the end of John 17, which if you look at John 13, it's the last supper. He dresses himself like a servant. He washes his disciples feet, he dips the bread in the morsel Judas leaves, you know, then he starts having a conversation with them. If you look at the last, look at the. Look at the three years of Jesus public ministry in three years he says the word or name Father 165 times. Let's just go to the last Passover dinner which is on a Thursday night. He's crucified Friday afternoon. Let's say that's 18 hours from the moment Judas leaves the room till Jesus says it is finished. How many times of those 165 does he say it? Over 50.

B (34:43)

Wow.

D (34:44)

So in an 18 hour period of time, one third of all of the fathers that he says occur, do you think he's trying to tell us something. If I do that in my books, it's called brow beating. If you look at the end of John 17, which we call the high priestly prayer, Jesus is having a conversation with God the Father. It is an amazing transcription by the power of the Holy Spirit that we have access to that the throne room is open and we get to hear the intimate words of God the Son with God the Father. And at the end of John 17, Jesus says, starting in verse 25, O righteous Father, O righteous Abba. Even though the world does not know you, I know you. And these know that yout have sent me. So he's talking about his disciples. I made known to them youm name. What name is that? I think it's Abba. And he says, I will continue to make it known, which by the way, he is doing right this second. Then he says this, that another translation says, so that. So I'm a writer, anytime I see that. Or so that I'm linking two phrases, one of which is consequential to the first, meaning they have something to do with one another. I'm doing something so that this thing might happen. He says that the love with which you have loved me may be in them and I in them. This is the reason for Jesus in His own words. We look at the cross and I thank God for the cross. I thank God for the shed blood of Jesus which continually cleanses us from all unrighteousness. But Jesus didn't come to just shed his blood so we could punch our ticket out of hell. He had a reason in mind. When it says in Hebrews 12:2, I think for the joy set before him, he endured the cross and despised the shame. I used to think the joy just had kind of. I don't pretend to understand the totality of that joy, but I used to think it just had something to do with us. I think now it had to do with the idea, the thought that Jesus knew we would know the love of the Father. The reason Jesus came is to return us to the Father and restore everything that was lost and fractured in the garden. That's the reason he did what he did, so that we might know the love of the Father. Now this idea of love is really beat around in our. I mean, it's been so used. So when we look at that, okay, well, what kind of love is that? Well, let's look at the love on display. For God so loved that he gave. And what did he give? He gave us a son to do for us what we could not and could never do for ourselves. When Philip says to Jesus, jesus, show us the Father. Jesus says, philip, have I been with you so long? If you've seen me, you've seen the Father. So let's look back through the life of Jesus. Let's look at the events in his life. When he looks at the woman with the issue of blood, he doesn't just heal her issue, what does he say to her? Says, daughter. So look at the life, the manifest presence, the expression of the healings of Jesus, the tenderness, meeting the woman at the well and not shaming her and looking at the life of Jesus. That is the love of the Father on display, the pinnacle of which is Jesus, nail pierced, saying, father, forgive them. Father, into your hands I submit my spirit.

C (38:15)

So the ultimate why question in the Bible is, if you want the safe answer, it's always the glory of God. So why, whatever as you're think, as you're saying that, why did Jesus die? Of course, to save sinners. But the why behind that is to for God to call back to himself, his family, you know, so you go back to Adam is created and what does he do? I talk about it all the time. God the father gets face to face, nostril to nostril, breathes into Adam, he opens his eyes. Scientists call that imprinting. When you get face to face with your parent and, and so on our very first dad, that's imprinted on the human heart. And that's what we're all trying to get back to. Face to face with that. Well, think about this, okay? If the ultimate answer to everything is the glory of God, and you're saying the reason Jesus came was to get his kids back to himself, think about this. I just thought about this.

D (39:09)

The.

C (39:10)

The glory of a dad is his kids. It is not what he does. Like, what did I do before we started recording? And I haven't seen you in a little while. I showed you a picture of my kid. You know, my kids. I just wanted to. Actually, I showed you a picture of my kids in worship services with their hands in the air.

D (39:27)

Praise God.

C (39:28)

So that, that, like, that's my glory.

D (39:30)

Sure.

B (39:30)

Yeah.

C (39:31)

You know, I didn't show you the attendance this weekend. Real high, really good.

D (39:36)

Yeah.

C (39:37)

I didn't show you how many people we baptized. And ultimately in the kingdom of heaven, that's. But to me as a dad, the glory is my children. And nothing glorifies God more than his children being redeemed. Can't find it right In a second. But In John 17, Jesus says, God, I just want them to know, as you have loved me, you've loved them. Okay, wait a second. Like, I get that God loved me, but not like he loves Jesus, right? Like I love Gretchen and then I love our dogs Dooley and Georgia. But the drop off is pretty significant between those two, which kind of makes me think, well, God loves Jesus like 100% and he loves me too. But the drop off has got to be pretty significant. But the language that Jesus uses in the high priestly prayer is this love that is in me would be in them. There's no drop off.

D (40:38)

23.

C (40:39)

So I actually have a harder. I get he's a judge. I even get that he's gracious, but that his love for us is, is the same love he has for his son, who has only given him reason to. To be loved. And I have given lots of reasons to not be loved, you know, and that's where I would encourage the dads this. And dude, JP's 20 and I hate to admit it, but I think he could probably beat me up right now. I think I. I hope he doesn't listen to this so. Because he's been training a lot in mma, but I will still grab that joke about ahead every day and kiss him right on the head because I want him to know the love of a father and he knows that I love him, you know, technically, but I want him to feel it, smell it.

D (41:45)

Just know it, he says, and Jesus says in verse 23, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

C (41:58)

How about that?

D (41:59)

I don't. I don't even know how to make I believe it because it says it and I believe that it is true. My fuzzy little head wants to explode when I read that. That's right. And then he's going to make his coairs with Jesus, which if you can.

C (42:12)

See me, and it doesn't say I can even get my mind. Chandler uses this all the time. I get that he's in love with a future version of me, like in my glorified self, you know, when the me of me is all crucified and gone and I've been resurrected in my glorified state and the only thing left is the idea that God had when he came up with the idea of me. Okay, then he's gonna really love me. But right now, any kind of frustrated and again, I can preach on perpetuation, the payment that satisfies, and I get all those things, but experientially and what it reminds me of is that time I was yelling at JP Three or four years ago. Listen, dude, you got it made. You got a mom and dad that love you. You live in this house, you go to this school. If you would just do what I tell you to do, your whole life would be awesome. And I was not offended. I was literally just wanted to put the goodness of God in him and be like, your dumb decisions are screwing up you, bro. And I mean, the spirit of God was like, tell him again, Dad. I was like, if you would just, hey, wait a minute. And that's that. I mean, the thing that took out Adam and Eve was, I mean, the deception was he's not a good dad that can be trusted. He's withholding from you.

D (43:27)

Yeah, that's right.

C (43:28)

Because he doesn't want you to be like him. Notice the devil never tempts anybody to be like the devil. The devil's never, never like, you want to be like me? Like, no. He's like, yeah, God doesn't want you to be like him. So what he has given you as a gift, I'm going to corrupt and say you can do better. And oftentimes, you know, the breakdown in the parent relationship is, I mean, listen, man, when your kids are driving you crazy and you're in and walking in a pretty selfless spot, I mean, there are times when you're being selfish as the parent and they're driving you crazy because you're not getting what you want. But most of the deep pains in parenting is because, you know, it's their own disobedience. Not even just against your kind of made up rules, but against the, the laws of God. And they're not going to break God's law. They're going to break themselves against it. And you just don't want them to do that. And so you hurt for them so bad.

B (44:24)

Yeah, we said at the beginning, this isn't a specific chapter in the book, but you are weaving fatherhood throughout the book. And I just want to read one of these quotes on page 177. It's right after you tell the story that you just told of saying if you would just do what I'm telling you to do, your life would go better. And you say every single time we trust him as a son trusts his dad, we're taking steps of obedience in the direction of abundant life because that's what he wants for us, not from us. You need to let that distinction settle in your heart. He wants for us, not from us. Every Single time. We do what our heavenly Father tells us to do, especially in the places where we think we know better, like sex and money and forgiveness. We are living like sons and not slaves. And it goes back to one of your main points, Charles, of when you understand God as Father, as Abba, it leads to a life of obedience which ends up in the abundant life.

D (45:24)

I'll. I'll. Give me. Just give me a second to tell this story, and I probably won't be able to tell it, but. So if I start crying like a girl, just bear with me. I grew up. My dad's from Texas. He was playing football in Texas. He was Friday Night Lights before it was popular. He got recruited by the University of Florida and played four years at the University of Florida from 51 to 54. This is obviously pre Tebow, but he was a Florida Gator. So I grew up in a house wearing my dad's jersey, and I have pictures of me at 2 years old with football helmet. So I grew up in a house with my dad, and we shared this thing called football. Did it through Pop Warner, did it through middle school, did it through high school. I can remember up 200 practices where I would look to the sideline and practice, and my dad is standing there just watching practice. So we would, you know, we would. We would talk about it, and it was. It was just this thing that we shared. And. And I. My dad had this thing where towards my senior year, I really wanted to play college football. And I wasn't big enough or fast enough, but he couldn't have told me that. So my dad had this thing where when I was working out or training really hard, he would come up behind me in the kitchen. I'd be sitting there eating or something, and he wouldn't say anything. He would just walk up and he had. He would buy. He boxed as a young guy, and he had real big, strong hands, and he would come up and dig his thumbs into my shoulders. And I just remember, my dad's been gone five years. But I'm telling you, I would give pretty much every penny that I have to have him come back and do that. Because the thing that it said to me was, hey, I see what you're doing. I know it's hard. Hang in there. I'm really proud of you. And he didn't. He never said that, but that's what his hand said. So I get invited to walk on at Georgia Tech, and really they were recruiting a buddy of mine who's one of the best athletes to ever Come out of Florida. His name was Kirk Robinson. He had 60, 70 something Division 1 scholarships and Georgia Tech really wanted him. He was big, strong, fast, and I think they felt like if they could get him in the deal, they added me to the sweet in the pot, they might could get him. Well, they didn't get him, but they never rescinded the invitation to me. So I show up and I was a walk on go to play for Bobby Ross and this is 89. They end up winning the national championship in 90. So I saw college football at a really high level. I played with a lot of guys who, several guys who ended up in the league and played a decade or whatever. So I saw college football at a fast, strong. I was not one of them. I played hard. There were conversations about me getting a scholarship, but I would have been at best a good special teams player. I made it through the fall, you know, just sort of gutting it out. Had some good weeks. I, I did some fun stuff. I, I got better, I got faster, I could react to the play. But every night, this is pre cell phone. Every night I'd go in, in my dorm, down the hall to the pay phone. I'd call my dad and check in and he would answer the phone. He called me Sport. He'd say, hey Sport. And we would talk and I would fill him in and tell him everything that's going on, you know, and, and, and ask and just, I just needed somebody to tell me, hey, it's. I see what you're doing. It's hard, I know it. Hang in there. I'm proud of you. And he did. So this is what we. So I finished the fall season. We were horrible. We go through fall workouts. I felt like I improved. Spring football comes around and we're doing sideline drills, which is where you're trying to judge angle of attack. You don't want to get somebody to cut back and so you're just learning angles. And I hit a guy who later went to the NFL. He was big, strong, fast. And when I hit him, I felt something pop in my back and I, it was. I remember laying on the ground and my hips were kind of twisted a little bit and I knew that was, that was the end that my football. I knew I had broken a vertebrae in my back. I got up and I limped back to the huddle and I managed to stay out of the coach's purview that day, vision or whatever. And I ended up calling a doctor in downtown Atlanta and going and getting X rays Because I didn't want my team to know. And he took some X rays. And I'll never forget, he walks in and he does a little thing where he shoves him up and you know, you can see him on the light. And it looked like a lightning strike through my bone. And I could see it as plain as day. L5 was cracked. And he. I'll never forget, he said, charles, I. I want to put you in a body cast. And I said, sir, with all due respect, I walked in here and I'm walking out. And so I just limped home. And in the process of walking those several blocks home, all of my idols came crashing down. I didn't know who to be. My whole life had led up to this one moment. It was over. I didn't know what to live for. I didn't know anything. I was the most broken probably I've ever been in my life. But in the back of my mind, I have to make a phone call. I go to my room and I sit there for four hours. Sun goes down, it gets dark in my room. And I finally managed to get up and walk down the hall. And I dial and dad picks up. And I mean, I can still hear his voice. It was just like, hey, sport, how you doing? And I tried to get it out. All I said was.

C (50:44)

I said, dad.

D (50:45)

I can't play football anymore. And he heard it in my voice and he said, what happened? And I said, dad, I broke a vertebrae in my back today. Without skipping a beat, my dad said to me and I heard his chair squeak. He said, son, if I leave right now, I can be there by supper. I look at men that I know, And my thought with most of us is that we are walking around with broken backs and we are not on the phone with our Father. Jesus said, I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me. If we do not bow to the Son, the Father will never lift us up. But the moment we surrender to the Son, the Father lifts. Lifts us up as a son, as a co heir with Jesus. I don't understand that, but I believe that it is true. My. My heart for us as men is that we would bow to the Son. And then when we lift our eyes up, we would look for the Father who has chased us throughout eternity to return him to himself. Because the thing that was lost, the thing that was fractured however many thousands of years ago, he's not willing to let that go. But he's got to do something with our sin. He's just not going to brush it under the rug. So what does he do to return us to himself? For God so loved the world that he gave us what we could never do on our own. And he gave us his only son. When I think about that with our three boys. I love you guys, but if it's a choice between you and my sons, sorry, but I'll see you in heaven now. The good thing is they love the Lord. You may want to talk to them. But my heart for men, as we've been through this, as through the writing of this book, through just our heart for men, most of us are walking around with broken backs. And for whatever reason, be it pride or fear, we are unwilling to bow to the son and then look up to the father and say, will you please father me? That's my heart for us.

B (53:19)

Now, as two dads with almost grown kids, do you feel like you're still learning things about fatherhood? Like, what's something maybe you've learned recently? Or you are learning about raising kids?

C (53:35)

Charles we were doing a podcast. I guess it was in here. I can't remember where it was. I'm on so many, I can't remember. And you were answering somebody's question.

D (53:46)

And.

C (53:46)

You said something to the effect of, I realized that my job as a dad was not to control the future of my child, but just for them to hear the voice of the good shepherd and do what he tells them to do. And I thought, oh, crap. Because, I mean, I'm good at navigating everybody else's future. Like, I really am. Like, I mean, we have this whole church to kind of show, like, God gives me visions for where we're going and we all go and we tend to life it and we want it and we before all things it. And I know, like, you know, you do whatever he tells you to do, but it's going to be one of these six things, so take the next step. And I realized as we were doing that, is that a big part of where JP was, is I was trying to navigate his future from a very, very good hearted place, because it won't. So what's good for him? And then he called from Tallahassee and he's like, this ain't it. Like, my future ain't here. A bunch of other things. And it was those words. And I was like, okay. And dude, my thought, my initial thought is, what you mean? Go drop out of college, dude, I have multiple degrees. Like, you're really smart, you know. And I just stopped and thought My job is not to navigate his future. My job is simply to be one of the people that helps create an environment for that dude where he can hear from the Lord and then do what the Lord calls him to do. And so he didn't go back. And today he's actually on staff right here. Right now, he's setting up in here for an event we're having and we're going to the ball game tonight. And you know, he thinks God's calling him through a bunch of conversations.

D (55:33)

Mh.

C (55:34)

He's like, I think God is calling me to help people and to use me, my body to do it. And you know, that led to him signing up for fire school. That is a totally different approach because I've been kind of a non man. You do hard things and you don't get to quit anything. And this is a time of you think you're in pasture, but it's just preparation, you know, And a comment. You weren't even talking to me. You were answering somebody's question about one of your three boys. It's transformed the way I see the rest of my parenting.

B (56:11)

It's really good.

C (56:12)

Now again, when they're three, it's a little bit different than when they're 20. You do. You are navigating their future or they'll navigate themselves into the road and they won't have a future. So, you know, so you got to understand the state of the life of your kids. But I mean, that was. That was like a revelation from God out of the mouth of Charles Martin.

B (56:33)

What about you, Grandpa?

C (56:35)

Yeah, I know. Oh, I have a gift.

B (56:37)

Tell us the wisdom of the grandfather.

D (56:39)

Well, that's a different kind of love, I'll tell you that. Our babies are having babies. All three of our boys are seem to be in places of transition. And to their great credit, they're really crying out to the Lord, asking him, you know, the Lord says, this is the way. Walk in it. And they're just asking him, show me the way and let me. I just. I want to follow you. So where do I put my first step? And they're really asking them, all three of them. And I'm proud of them. And I thank God that that is their heart. I do. My tendency as their dad is still to want to point and correct. And if I'm honest, if you really unpack me, I'm afraid they'll make a mistake that'll take some time to recover from. So out of fear, I want a helicopter and control now. I've gotten better in Years. And they're older now, and I can't parent them now the way I did when they were younger. They're. You know, we're. We're. We're more friends now. I'm still their father, but we're. Our relationship is just different and so totally. I was praying. I was up in the middle of the night the other night praying for one or two of them or all three of them or whatever. And I just felt like the Lord said, you're trying to keep your boys from walking into the desert that I'm calling them into. And every man that I've ever used, I've brought into the desert. So will you let me take them into the desert? Yes, Lord. I'm sorry. I repent wholeheartedly. But we do. We try to keep our kids from experiencing the desert, which is the. One of the. I mean, any man the Lord's ever used has a desert experience, including the.

C (58:22)

Lord and all says, when God wants to accomplish an impossible task, he picks an impossible man and crushes him. Leave room for the crushing.

D (58:31)

Amen. Yeah, we're just afraid that our. Our kids will suffer, hurt or harm or. And I don't want that for them. But as I look back over my life, the Lord allowed great hardship, but he's allowed it to get us here. I wouldn't trade it. I wouldn't. If it's just. I mean, my dad. I can still hear him say it. He said, son, the hard is what makes it good. I think that's true. And we try to prevent them from the hard. I think we as parents would do a lot better now when they're younger, we got to keep them from running out and out in the street, that's a different thing. But as they grow older, really entrusting them to the father is our job.

C (59:17)

But you do, when they're little, let them play on the playground? I was gonna say a safety net, you know, I mean, come on, dude, have you seen those old school pictures of the monkey bars from the 40s? They're like three stories high over concrete, and little boys in penny loafers are just walking around up there.

B (59:33)

Penny loafers? Yeah. No. I just saw an article come out about how there are. You used to see kids in casts all the time, and now little kids never have casts. And Wes and I will talk about it at the park. Most of the parents are one foot from their kid. Just guiding them on the playground, and we really try. It is hard. It's hard to watch your kid fall, face plant through the netting of the playground. But we try really hard to just let them figure it out because, yeah, there are some things you have to be more sure, in control of when they're younger to keep them from harm. But it definitely starts with your kids being young because I can imagine it only gets harder to let some of those things go. Right now, the things that I have to trust and I'm going to let them do on their own is usually physical in preparation for like those emotional and mental battles. Like that seems to me, and I'm sure y' all would say it is like, that's far harder to watch your kids walk through a fire that you.

C (60:37)

Know is going to hurt them or relational.

D (60:39)

Yeah.

C (60:40)

Wait. Wait until the first time another human being hurts the heart of your child.

D (60:46)

Right.

C (60:46)

I mean, just stomps it.

D (60:49)

Yeah.

B (60:50)

Too much. Okay, final question. And it's a little bit different than what I originally had in mind. What encouragement for. For the women. So those who have kids and so they have a dad in their life that they're married to raising their kids with or the daughters of dads. What encouragement or challenge rather, could we give the women of our church to be encouragers of dads and help to be in this entire fight for men to be able to be godly dads?

C (61:26)

I don't want to be harsh, but I bet the encouragement is very, very low. And very few dads are drunk on encouragement. They are starving for a little bit of way to go. And of course, they're not changing the diapers right. And they probably don't bathe them right. And so ladies, you can either have it done the right way or you can let him help. And when you bust him getting it right, you should encourage it and your voice. And honestly, your children are little lying, manipulative, wedge driving children of wrath. They're going to try to get what they want and they're going to try to pit you against one another. And one of the tools of the enemy to break up a marriage is let. And it can go either way. But you asked the question this way. You let moms start agreeing with the criticism of the children about where dad's wrong and not being his biggest cheerleader. And so fundamentally, man, what, what the dad needs from mom is just a little bit of cheerleading. Like, you got to remind him how powerful his role is. His voice is. We need you in this fight. We need you in this game. We're not the same. And men are very, very, very simple creatures. We really are. Like when you're Asking, what are you thinking about? And he says, nothing. He's actually telling the truth. And so you got to constantly cheer him on to step into the role that God has called him to and let him know what a big impact he has.

B (63:02)

That's great.

D (63:04)

My encouragement to the. Well, I'll say two things. One, there are single mamas out there wondering, how do I raise men? Mama, you got it. The Lord has given you everything that you need. For whatever reason, whatever man left you, hurt you. Yep, I understand. And. But God has given you a boy to raise into a man. And he will. He will walk you through that. You have what it takes. Lean into the Father. He has not left you alone.

C (63:27)

And your local church. There's a bunch of men here to help. Student ministry, kids ministry. Where, where. Where the ideal is unrealized, grace abounds.

D (63:35)

Amen. Yeah, Dads, I, I would, I would. If you were sitting here and I could wrap my arm around you, I would say, repent when you're wrong. Don't let your pride keep you from that. Please. Your kids need to see you. They need to hear you look at their mama. Or look at them and say, hey, I, I, I messed that up. I got that wrong. I'm sorry. Will you forgive me? Swallow your pride. Don't. Don't let that. And I'm preaching to me. I have done it. I will need to do it again. But learn to repent. Pray without ceasing with their mama. With them. Let them hear you. Let them hear the language of you talking with the father. You don't have to have it, all right, you don't have to have all the perfect words, but let them hear you talking with the father. That will do more to introduce them to a relationship with the father than just about anything. Let them hear you talk with the father. Let them see you love on their mama. Make her stuff more important than your stuff. And cover their face and kisses. I know can feel awkward if you've never done it, but I would. There is a thing that happens in the heart of a boy when his dad kisses him. I know it. I knew it as a boy, and now I know it as a father. And I would, I would implore you, show your son's affection. Because the father sure enough is going to show us affection when we get there. He's going to wrap us in his arms. We're going to feel his belly laugh. We're going to feel the strength of his biceps. We're going to know what he smells like. The scratch of his beard and he's going to cover our face in kisses. If he's not, then tell me why I have this book telling me that's what it's going to be like. Lastly, I would implore you, this is my, my deepest request of us as men. And I mean it. Most of us are walking around with broken backs and we're not on the phone with our Father. And you have an enemy that desperately does not want you to start a conversation with the Father and say, father, I need help. I need help being a husband. I need help at work. I'm not doing a great job with my kids. I need help. Would you please Father me? And Paul tells us twice, both in Romans and Galatians, God has not given us a spirit of fear, but he has sent his spirit into our chest. And do you know what that spirit says when he implants it in our chest? The first two words out of the spirit's mouth are abba, Father. So the very spirit of God in our chest is crying out the very words he wants us to cry out. So be in agreement with those words. I said it a minute ago. When we bow to the sun, the Father raises us up. There is no path to the Father that doesn't go through the Son, but there is a path to the Father, and it does go through the Son. And when we bow, the Father lifts us up.

B (66:29)

So good. Pastor Debbie, will you pray for us?

C (66:31)

Be happy. To our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. God, I thank you that that's not just a title. That's who you are. And may we walk in that truth. We pray it in Jesus name.

D (66:50)

Amen.

B (66:51)

Amen.

C (66:51)

Thank you for listening to the podcast the End.

D (66:54)

You nailed it.

A (66:59)

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