← Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin
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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin. The Church of 1122 is a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ. And we're praying this message helps you deepen your relationship with him. Now let's dive in.
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B
Is decaf for quitters?
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C
Yes.
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B
There you go. Let's get it.
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D
I mean, Pastor David basically said if a church tells you not to drink coffee, you should leave.
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C
Yeah. But decaf is. Now, Gretchen's a big fan. She. She has caffeine after whatever, four o'. Clock. She says it's really. It's all in her mind, though.
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B
I think that it's like if I drink caffeine after whatever time, I never sleep. I'm like, okay, it's just relax. It's just that.
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D
It's just, it's individuals.
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B
I just. I'm kidding.
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C
I just. I could drink a cup of coffee going to bed, and I just lay down and go sleep.
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D
It's really. I think individually you can get tested for how fast you process caffeine.
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C
Why?
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D
I mean, different people do slow or fast. So it's probably the people that are slow that they drink at three. They can't sleep.
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B
When I was on my way to school as a. In middle school, my uncle would pick us up. Me and my brother and my cousin would take us to school every morning. We would stop at the general store and I would get a Mountain Dew and a honey bun.
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C
Let's go.
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B
That's what I ate for breakfast every day for three years. A Mountain Dew and a honey bun. Can you imagine being my teachers, bro? Like, what a terrible child. I must have been just all hopped up on Mountain Dew.
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C
Your afternoon teachers probably appreciate it because you're in a coma.
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D
Oh, wow. Well, how about Matthew 5?
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C
Let's go.
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B
Let's get it.
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C
This will be fun.
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D
Oh, yeah. Fun is the word I was thinking. Well, let's. Here's the first question. We've talked a lot about Jesus and Matthew's message about Jesus being the greater Moses.
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C
Yeah.
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D
And something that stood out to me about this section is that there's that Jesus repeats these phrases. He says, well, you've heard it said. But I say, so say some more words about that. That thing that he repeats.
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C
So I think there's two things going on here. At the end of the sermon, they are going to say, and when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teachings. By the way, not mir. Not miracles, not prophecies, but his teaching. And here's the astonishing thing for he was teaching them as one who had authority, not their scribes. So he is upping the ante on what they knew as the law. Now, I think a part of the reason he says, you have heard that it was said is because the first ones are like word for word commandments. But as you keep going, it starts slipping into things that aren't word for word. Bible verses from the Old Testament. So, like the love your neighbor. That's in Leviticus 19:18, I want to say. But it doesn't say hate your enemies. But they have heard the religious leaders say, love your neighbor and hate your enemy. And so it kind of. So there's two things. One is that he has not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. And so he's. That's what. What he's doing here. Like, it's not just the law written on stone tablets. This is the law of God written on our hearts. This is a heart issue, not an obedience issue. Okay. But then some of these things, he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. That's not what it said. That's not what was written. But what you've heard, like the divorce one. There's no commandment about divorce. There's concession in Deuteronomy 24 that Moses gives for the protection of women that were being used up and abused. So I think it has something to do with both of those. One is he teaches as one with authority, that authority was given to him by God the Father. And I think he's getting at. You guys are making stuff up. You guys are adding stuff to what God said.
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B
Yeah, there's a Osborne. Larry wrote a book years ago. I think it was Osborne that wrote a book called 10 Dumb Things Christians Believe.
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C
Okay.
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B
And he more or less just takes these, like, 10 cultural phrases that have somehow turned into, like, cultural proverbs that are like, you know, like a morphing of something that the Bible said. You know what I mean? It's just like, I'll never give you more than you can handle. It's like, that's not what the Bible says.
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C
Not at all. And that's kind of what everything happens for a reason.
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B
Exactly.
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C
Yeah. Okay.
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B
It's kind of what they were doing, right?
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C
Yep. That's what it looks like.
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B
He's just clearing it up.
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C
Yeah. As I really dug into the. You know what he said on the. You have heard that it was said.
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D
And remember, he says, I have not come to abolish. And if you give a surface reading, you might think, oh, no, forget that. This is what I'm saying. But he's not doing that. No, he's saying, heard it said, this level. Actually, let me say this level. Can you point that out?
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C
Yes. When an act. So you know, when you first. On the surface, when you hear, unless your righteousness exceeds the scribes and Pharisees, then you're out. And you're like, well, I'm not in. And then he's like, well, let me explain to you what I mean. What we're not talking about is just external activities. That's what the Pharisees are about, like cleanliness and all laws. I mean, like you pointed out, they're simultaneously mad because Jesus disciples doesn't. They don't wash their hands. Right. And they're plotting the murder of Jesus. So he's like, actually, the way your righteousness can exceed them is. Let's not just talk about the external letter of the law. Let's talk about the heart. That's why I love that verse, that the love of Christ compels me.
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D
Right.
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C
Bunch of words in the middle. To not live for myself, but to live for Christ.
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D
Yeah. You know, we talk about the city on a hill and like kingdom of priests that God intended Israel to be and how they mess that up. This thing with enemies is also interesting because if you go back and read, there's a ton about showing kindness to the sojourner. Because you were a sojourner, you were a stranger, you were an exile. And so correct. It's all over the place.
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C
And then there is also many, many verses about, I mean, David prays that God would bash his enemy's head against the rocks. Okay. One of the things too you got to pay attention to. A really good example is eye for eye, tooth for tooth.
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D
Yeah.
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C
That was legislative for the courts of Israel, not necessarily to be lived out personally. Like, if somebody killed your dog, you can just get to go kill their dog. When you went to court, it was to at least keep this thing at equitable retribution as opposed to just reacting to the situation. So here's a big mistake. This is how this applies to America today. There are. There are commands in the New Testament that are for sure for the individual and to the church, but not nationally, the way people talk about it. So let's talk about immigration and welfare. Christians should be the most generous people. And actually, statistically, they are by a long ways. What the left will often do is say, well, the Bible says we should take care of poor people. Like, yeah, so do it. But what they mean Is we should take people's money and they want to be generous with somebody else's money. From a government standpoint, that is not what is prescribed here. And so you got to be real careful to know who these things were attributed to.
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D
I love R.C. sproul says there's actually only one meaning of that text. You know, you read a text of the Bible, it's one meaning.
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B
Yeah.
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D
There are many applications. And so what you're talking about is that is a misapplication of that, what the text means.
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C
Yeah. It's real easy to be generous with somebody else's money.
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D
Right, for sure.
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B
Yeah.
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C
But we are commanded to be generous individuals, people.
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D
Yeah. And then when they talked about the law, it encompassed so much that it's easy for us to be confused about what, what applied to what.
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C
Let me give it to you on the other end. So God has instituted the government to enact justice, not me and you. So even though if, you know, if there's a, if there's a murderer not in the act of murdering and you defending somebody, but they, they clearly did it, we don't get to go just murder the people. That. That is in the realm of the government. It is just up to them to be able to do that.
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D
Right. And you, you talked about this quite a bit in the Stand Firm series. Like, we're responsible to use the domain of influence that we have.
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C
Correct.
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D
To. To be protector. Somebody might have group was asking about this, like, aren't we supposed to correct people who are wrong? And go. I was like, well, it depends. Like, where has God put you? Like, what's the authority that he's given you? You're not going to go door to door and try to pull out all the people that you disagree with and show them what's. What's, what. So anger is the first one of the six. And here's something, here's something I noticed that he's talking about anger in the heart being worthy of the same consequence as murder or just as much of a consequence. But then he says, if you're offering your gift and you find out your brother has something against you, so it feels a bit like a switch. Because that's not anger in my heart, that's somebody else's anger.
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C
Yeah, but you, yeah, but you are the offender, not the offended. Then you go make that thing.
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D
Right, Right.
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C
But one, one second on the. It doesn't have the same consequence because you, you would never put somebody in prison for thoughts.
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D
Right? Right. Right.
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C
So it is different. And I have People look at me with shock sometimes when a spouse wants to leave their spouse for adultery, but what they actually mean is lust. And I'm like, you're right. In his heart, he did commit adultery, but that is not legal grounds. We're talking about a different thing here. In the same way, if you were mad at me, I don't get to arrest you for assault because you didn't actually assault me. So, yeah, the legal applications are not the same as the spiritual distance that you create between you and God. Based on that internal realities.
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D
Isn't it also interesting that he. He doesn't say, when you're angry, you've already murdered them, but when he's talking about lust, he says, you already have committed adultery. Interesting. Let's talk a little bit more about forgiveness and reconciliation, because that's often one that gets confused. You know, you, you brought it up.
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C
Forgiveness is unilateral because Christ has forgiven you. You gotta forgive. You got to cancel the debt because he canceled the record of all of your debt. And so in Matthew 18, this is the parable that Jesus lays out. There's like, it's called the parable of the Unmerciful Servant. He was forgiven a ton, but would not forgive a guy a few, like a month's wages or something like that. And the onlookers look at that and be like, well, that doesn't make any sense at all because the king just forgave him of everything. And so from a heavenly perspective, if we don't forgive and yet claim the forgiveness of Christ, it doesn't make any sense. So we're so supposed to cancel their debt. Now that is different than reconciliation. As much as is up to you, you should live at peace with all men. But it. Reconciliation requires both parties, and repentance must be there in both parties in order for them to be reconciled. And there's sometimes. And when Matthew 18 says, if your brother sins against you, go talk to him one on one. Well, that's. Generally speaking, if that one on one situation is not violent or there's abuse there, that is not what. And honestly, that has been abused by church leaders for a long time. Like, I don't know of any of this personally, but when you, when you read about the abuse of some churches, pastors would tell wives to go back into an abusive situation because God might say, or whatever that is. No, no, no, no. If there's some kind of, if there's some kind of abuse or something like that, you call the police, you know, and you're still this would be so hard. You still are to forgive. But reconciliation requires a lot more steps, and it requires two parties that are willing to repent and offer and receive forgiveness.
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D
I'm imagining. Go to. Back up for a minute. I'm imagining maybe somebody who's a personality that tends towards people pleasing. And then so then they read, if you. If you realize that your brother has something against you, go make it right. And could that become like, could you take that too far and like, oh, not, you know, worry too much that somebody might have something against you? Is that a thing?
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C
Well, it was just talking about. It's talking in the context of like, murder and anger. So that something would be a sinful offense on your part, like where you take ownership of something that you did wrong. The something is not the general. They don't like me because of their jealousy, you know? Right.
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B
The way I've most often experienced this is people. The person who feel sinned against goes and seeks the restoration or the forgiveness versus the one who did the sinning against. Isn't that weird? I think you understand what I'm saying.
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C
Yeah. I mean, that's Matthew 18. If your brother sins against you, go tell him. So I think the. One of the things Jesus is trying to communicate is that especially the Pharisees, but all of us have a tendency to do this, is we divorce our vertical relationship with God and our horizontal relationships with one another. We're like, well, dude, I think that
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B
is so key, right. To this text, these texts, this teaching. Sorry to interrupt you. No, but I think it's absolutely right because there's multiple times you even got to it tonight where he talks about judgment. He talks about. And every time we hear, like, we're actually going to get to judgment. Matthew 7, he says, Judge not, lest you be judged. And he's absolutely. Anytime you read the word judgment in the Bible, you absolutely immediately just go to, like, eternal judgment. But it also immediately has horizontal impact on your relationships. If you are someone who is quick to judge and to form strong opinions about other people, then you are going to receive that in return, you will be judged.
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C
Correct.
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Does that mean. You know what I mean?
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C
Right.
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B
And so it. That. I think that is massively key, that this is, you know, Jesus the master teacher. He's not just talking about our vertical relationship with God and the implications that sin has on that. He's talking about the collateral damage and the ripple effects of sin through our relationships.
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C
Yeah. He's like, do you really want to play this judgment game? Do you want me to judge you the way you're judging that person that offended you.
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B
Right?
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C
Is that the measure by which you. Is this the standard? Is this the game we're playing? You're like, no, no, no, no. See, because this is what we do. This is our problem. My problem for sure is that I always want to be judged by. By my intentions, but I want to judge everybody else's actions. And I won't judge. I want God to judge me by my intentions, to be like, well, I know I hurt his feelings, but that's not my fault, because I didn't mean to. Well, that's irrelevant, bro.
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D
There's a name for that. It's called the fundamental attribution error.
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C
Okay, say more.
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D
It's. It's. I think it's a pretty ubiquitous tendency that we all have to do. Exactly. What you just said is to look at other people and say, well, they did it on purpose, but I didn't mean to. And so we judge other people's.
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C
We helped me with this a ton. I've talked about it in years past. Early in our marriage when. When I would do something and she would be upset, and I'd be like, you shouldn't be upset because. Let me. Hold on. Let me. Let me explain to you why you shouldn't feel the way you feel. It's the worst thing to ever do. But that's what I would try to do. And then one time, when it finally clicked for me, she's. She'd be like, listen, if you accidentally backed over my foot with your truck and it broke my foot, and you immediately jumped out and said, oh, my gosh, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to. It would have zero impact on the effect of my foot. Now, it would be worse if I was trying to run her over, but her foot would still be broken. I think this is why proverbs will say things like careless words, stab like a sword. If I. Even if I stuck you with a knife, even if I didn't mean to, there's still a wound, and the offense is instantaneous. And the he. And it goes on to say, but wise words lead to healing, but the healing takes a long time, and even if you didn't mean to, there could still be a scar, right?
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B
Well, when it comes to anger, why do you think, like, where do you think anger comes from? Like, I get it, we're a sinful nature and all that stuff, but some people are just more angry than other people, I think. Is it, like, personality and pain?
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C
And I think it Actually, if it's rooted, if, you know, if we're broken image bearers of God. Most often, I think what anger is. Anger is protecting something. Like, it's a good thing God put in us. This is why it says to be slow to anger. When it goes south and it's negative, it's protecting us, our ego or insecurity. It's that kind of thing. When it's used to protect things that please the heart of God, then it's a really good thing that stirs us to action. And so anger in and of itself is not good or bad. It's just so dominant that when anger walks in the room, all the other emotions run.
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D
Right.
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C
And it's such a dominant emotion, it can just take over.
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D
I always think of, like, threat. Like. Like a bear. Yeah, like a bear that mauls somebody. It's not because the bear's sitting there thinking, I'm gonna wait till some human comes by and then just tear them up. It's that they're like, something's coming after my cubs.
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C
Yeah.
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D
And then they just. Then what you perceive is angry bear, bro.
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B
I rewatched the Revenant.
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C
Let's go.
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B
DiCaprio movie.
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C
Yeah.
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B
About Hugh Glass. The dude, he's mauled by that bear.
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C
That's intense.
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B
I mean, I know it's all, like, CGI stuff that looks as real as anything I ever seen in my life.
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D
You know, it took him forever to film that movie because they only filmed for, like, 30 minutes twice a day because it was all either at dawn or dusk.
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B
Because of the day. Because of the light. They wanted the exact kind of light. Oh, for sure. They had to change the cruise over multiple times when filming that movie because people are like, no, I'm out.
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D
This is too hard.
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B
It's too cold. Crazy.
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D
So wait, let's go back to something you said, okay. Because I think I'm confused the way you're saying you might be confused or people get confused. So if you're offering your gift at the altar and remember that your brother has something against you. When I read that, I think he's angry at you, which would put you as the one being sinned against.
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C
No, no, no. But I think the other offender. Right, right.
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D
But that's what I'm saying. I'm saying I think I read it wrong by. By nature. Because if I think my brother has something against me, I think, oh, he's angry at me. But no, he's hurt because I call him a fool or something. Right, right. That's the Second one is right.
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C
Yeah.
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B
You're the offender. You get convicted. You. You realize your heir. You're supposed to go to the person that you.
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C
You're taking ownership.
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D
He has something against me because I wronged him.
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B
Yes.
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C
Now, and what could be. If you're at the altar, that means you're at the temple. Synagogues didn't have authors. So what this could mean is you leave the temple and go all the way back to Galilee and get right with your neighbor and then go all the way back to the temple to make your gift to God.
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D
That also says something about, like I said, they do that a few times a year, right?
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C
Yep.
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D
And there was. They probably had a better sense of preparation for those things, whether it was through consecration, fasting, or whatever. And so it's like they got ready to go do the thing. He's like, so maybe part of what he's saying is don't go into that temple, worship haphazardly. You know, I've heard people talk about that for, like, the modern church. Right. We sort of walk in with our coffee. We're not thinking much about the encounter with God we're about to have and how much better you can worship if you've prepared a little bit, especially relationally.
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B
I'm with you.
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D
What is the phrase, come to terms quickly with your accuser while you're going with him to court mean?
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C
That's it. I mean, your highest allegiance is to the king, and the king's kids ought to be able to work this stuff out. Not trusting, man made courts to work it out. This is true, man. We don't. Modern Christians do not apply this. Right. I mean, I've been sued by pastors and my. And then. And our lawyer calls and like, hey, man, you got this. Cease and desist. It was weird. And so he tells me. I'm not going to get into the details. He tells me what it's about, and I'm like, I don't think you can do that. He goes, you can't do that. So we need to sue him back. And that's the only way to make it right. And I'm like, I can't.
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D
Right?
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C
He's like, why not? What's really sad is our lawyer was a one more of mine that got saved. And he was like, oh, this is easy. I'll just call the guy and it'll be fine. And I'm like, okay, yeah, you should do that. And then he calls back. He's like, I don't understand. I was like, I know. It was really. It was a terrible witness to this brand new believer, you know? Right.
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D
Is he also saying, don't put off reconciliation. That's in your power?
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B
Like, of course.
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D
Because you're like, you're being d. Basically being dragged to court. And he's like, take advantage of the time you still have. Make it right.
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C
It's this, man. If you harbor unforgiveness, you are going to be a prisoner of that. That's it, bro. And it's going to rule and reign your life. You're not going to be. You will not be free as long as you harbor unforgiveness because that begins to turn into bitterness. And bitterness will make the whole. Your whole life stink, bro, because you're mad. And here's the thing. The person, the reason you got to cancel the debt, they can't give you what you want anyway. You can't like, jump in the DeLorean and fix the flux capacitor and go back to that time and them not say the word that hurt you or whatever it is, like, go uncheat on you. They can't. And so you're trying to receive something from somebody that doesn't. They can't even get you. Give you what you want. And even if they stole money for you, even if they give the money back, they can't give the trust back. And so you can either hold on to it and it's going to kill you, you're going to be in prison. Or you can cancel the debt and be free.
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D
Isn't it also interesting. He says you'll never get out until you pay the last penny. I mean, how big of a fine does it have to be for it to take a long time to pay back penny at a time?
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C
You.
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B
No doubt.
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C
And here's the thing. How much did you make in prison exactly?
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D
Just somebody Ben moi or something.
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B
I don't know.
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D
Well, it gets even funner after that. You know, lust comes after anger. And have you ever heard anybody say, well, you believe the Bible's literal.
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C
I.
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D
Every word of the Bible, literal. They try to trick you with that one. Jesus is not actually saying pluck your eye out, like literally, but he is saying it's very serious. So talk about what if somebody's like, well, that's pretty extreme.
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C
Yeah. Yeah. This is extremely important. Sexual sin dings the soul. It's a path. That's the thing. Everybody thinks it's a snapshot. It's not. It's a pathway. It leads somewhere. And I. I was talking to Pastor Renaud at Mosaic Church in Orlando. He's the first guy that said it to me this way that I've used a million times. Now, we're not just simply talking about right and wrong. We're talking about life and death. Pathways of life and death. Mm. So pornography, for an example, it puts you on a pathway that leads to death. Death of your soul, death of your sensitivities, death of your marriage or future marriage. Honestly, it rewires the way your brain works. It's very. We all know this stuff. It's very similar. The same pathways that are created in your brain by looking at pornography are similar to, like, heroin use. And it just kills things, man. So listen, if you're a single guy, and you are. And I don't want to hear you're struggling with pornography, because if you actually struggle, like, if you fought, you probably have more victories than you do if you're just giving yourself over to it. Here's what it's doing. And this is an original me. Somebody else said this. It's teaching you that, honestly, a real woman's not enough, one woman's not enough. And if you ever get married, that woman won't be enough because she just can't compete with the limitless access that you have. And it wires your brain in such a way like, it is the exact example of the thief comes only to steal, kill, and destroy. He's baiting you down a road that leads to death. Death of your marriage, death of relationship, all of those things. Death of intimacy.
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D
Yeah.
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C
And, bro, the. I mean, the science is out. Erectile dysfunction in young males is through the roof, and it is directly linked to pornography use in their teenage years.
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D
Yeah.
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C
God's ways. If you live God's ways in his world, he was designed that you could live life and life abundantly. It's better. And then. And then the biggest thing, dude, when you commodify other human beings, it's like the grossest thing you could do. Jesus dies for us. And we're trying to use people, and they die for us. You know, it's not good at.
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D
Somebody asked me, who's a therapist and a new, newer Christian, she was like, I don't really get what. What do you mean? Lust? Because they use different words. And she used the word commodity and then objectification.
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C
That's it. A commodity is a good or service that you use up, and when you're done, you discard it. And if you treat people that way, you are so out of step with the character nature of Christ. In you that it's. It's a death sentence.
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D
Yeah.
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B
Yeah. You said this tonight. Some version of. And you may. You may have just said it as well, but the. It's, you know, it's sexual. Since sears the conscience like a hot knife or a. A brand that just burns into your conscience. And the scab is shame.
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C
Yeah.
- [28:06]
B
And so I think that's something that may not get. We talk about shame in passing a lot. By we, I mean, like, generally in Christianity. But shame is such a powerful weapon of the enemy to terrorize the conscience and the mind of the believer. And it's one of his favorites. It's totally. So, Pastor, what would you say to the person whose conscience has been seared by their own choices through giving themselves over to sexual sin time and time and time again, and they're buried in the shame of it. And so it feels like the shame is circular, and so they just keep going back because they can't break the cycle of shame.
- [28:56]
C
Yeah.
- [28:56]
B
And shame can only produce more shame.
- [29:00]
C
Yeah. Years ago, I read this book called Unwanted. And the whole premise of the book was like, if you are unwanted, it will. If you feel unwanted, oftentimes it plays itself out in sexual immorality because it. It really comes down to, you don't know how valuable you are in. First Corinthians 6 says, you are not your own. You were bought with a price, therefore honor God with your body. It goes on to say, it lists all this sexual immorality and says, and such were some of you, but you have been washed and cleansed. So the good news of the gospel is that therefore now there is no condemnation for those in Christ. That's why. Listen, I knew I was long, but I had to talk about John 4. The woman at the well, she was shrouded in shame about her. Who she was sexually. Right. She'd been through five guys and was lived shacked up with a dude. Now I had to talk about John 8, the woman caught in the act of adultery. And God said, jesus says, I don't condemn you. Neither do I condemn you, and go and leave your life of sin. Let's get out of this. And King David, I mean, bro, that's terrible, man. He did all the bad things, and still none of those people were useless to God, you know? And so the Bible says that when Jesus died on the cross, he nailed the consequences of our sin and shame to the cross. And so we have to believe that God's word over us is the final word. And so we. We are not I mean, condemnation means unfit for use. And Jesus goes, no, no, no, no. Actually, your body is a temple that I'm going to move into. And so you got to do the hard work of believing what God says about you over what you think about you. You shouldn't trust all your feelings. You should trust the word of God over what you feel, you know? Yeah.
- [30:53]
B
I think if you are listening and you're struggling with sexual sin, oftentimes there's really. It seems like there's really nowhere to go. Like there's no one to talk to. And I would just say reach out to our CARE team.
- [31:06]
C
Yeah.
- [31:06]
B
And let us help you with the resources and let us help you with. And there's no universal remedy based because it is so insidious in its nature that each individual has to walk a different path of healing. However, some of the ingredients are the same. You got to bring things into the light. This one, unlike anything else I've ever seen, requires the total freedom of total forgiveness, requires total confession. And that's often where people stop at experiencing their freedom, is that they don't want to really confess because of the weight of shame. But until you're ready to really come into the light, you just never. It's the same old. If you're. You're not willing to be honest, you're never going to be free. And I don't think this is one that it's just come to the altar and tell Jesus like you need to tell someone for the sake of your soul, confess your sins one to another so that you may be healed. And you shouldn't confess them to everybody, but to somebody. And so reach out to our care team and COE2.com care. There's all kinds of resources there, and we'd love to be a partner to anybody who wants to pursue a healing journey as best we can.
- [32:20]
C
I also think you've got to attack this thing like the Shema. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. So you got to pay attention to your relationship.
- [32:27]
B
You can't just quit right? Y.
- [32:29]
C
Like your relationships matter. The. The way you were raised, the way you were treated when you were young. Is there some kind of thing in your past that you've never really dealt with? You know, there's all this kind of stuff right. With your soul. This is. These are demonic force. I mean, you think about this. Any. Anybody that has ever succumbed to sexual immorality. And then the moment you cross that line and then the afterwards is like, what have I done? If you don't think they're not demonic forces baiting you down a road that you don't want to go down. But in the moment your flesh takes over and you're like, here we go. You got to go to war against this, all right? Your mind, you got to pay very close attention to what you're feeling. Your mind with this is the gouge out your eye and cut off your hand. So you better put up. I mean, it will not be enough, though. Guardrails alone will never be enough. You've got to have that greater affection, but you better. You better pay very close attention to what you're filling your mind with. If you just doom. Scroll all the time about stuff that leads you down that road and you just watch movies that lead you down that road, then you're not guarding your mind. And then strength. There's. There's some physical things. Dude, if pornography is a struggle, then who, like, physically pay attention to this? Turn your. Turn all the streaming things off, whatever it is. That's where, like, accountability and sharing this and shining some light on it. And. And so you've got to attack this thing in all of those arenas of your life. It would. None. No single thing. Prayer alone won't be enough. Accountability won't be enough software on your phone. None of those things will be enough because you're like, God made you a total person. Heart, soul, mind and strength. And you got to attack it on all those ways.
- [34:20]
B
And I can give pastoral testimony as an encouragement that hundreds. I know hundreds of men who had serious pornographic addictions at different points of their life, have committed sexual sin. Any category that they're. Yeah, you can measure. And they now walk healed, free, you know, restored, and Hundreds, hundreds. And every single one of them, Every single one of them would have said at the point of addiction, they thought they could. They would never be free.
- [35:03]
C
Yeah.
- [35:04]
B
And I know for a fact that freedom is possible because I've just seen it happen in people's lives so many times.
- [35:12]
C
I mean, I also want to speak to this because. Because there'll be a lot of people that hear that, and they'd be like, well, I'm not addicted. And that might be true. It might just be this kind of occasional depth, you know? I'm telling you, the enemy has you exactly where he wants you because you don't realize the depth of it. You know what I mean? And that can be just as dangerous, even though it's not nearly as frequent. That. Because you're. You're just, like, giving yourself over to the lust of the flesh as opposed to being compelled by the love of Christ to live not for yourself, but for him.
- [35:50]
D
It's like Pastor Matt Carter talks about the lures.
- [35:53]
C
Yeah.
- [35:54]
D
And you might have swallowed that lure and he's just waiting to set the hook.
- [35:59]
C
Yeah.
- [35:59]
D
You know, maybe somebody who is new to Bible study could read it's better for you to lose one of your member than your whole body to be thrown into hell. Maybe it's possible they'll read that and think, if I keep sinning, I might be sent to hell. And so he's. We know from the rest of the scripture that this is not talking about if you keep sinning, you lose your salvation. But can you unpack that at all about why he says that about your whole body going to hell?
- [36:36]
B
Yeah.
- [36:37]
C
I don't want everybody to question their salvation unless you're not saved.
- [36:41]
B
And it's a great way to say it.
- [36:43]
C
Yeah.
- [36:45]
B
He who habitually continues in sin unrepentant.
- [36:48]
C
I don't care what you say. I got this. You don't get to tell me what to do. If the moment you're like, well, I listen, I'm going to do what I want, but I believe in Jesus, so I get to go to heaven. That's not what that means. Lordship means I do what you say regardless of what I want. Now, the person that is actually struggling with it, that is evidence of the spirit of God working in their life. But the person that's like, hey, listen, I'm into all this stuff, but I'm gonna. And I. And I'm a Christian, but I sleep with whoever I want to sleep with. Well, Jesus, I mean, by your own admission, he is not your Lord. You are your Lord because you're saying, I'm doing what I want. Lordship means you're the boss of me. I'm not the boss of me. So this particularly comes out in all kind of sexual identity and all of that stuff. If you tell him what you are going to do regardless of what he has said to do or not do, by definition you are the king of your life and he is not the king of your life.
- [37:58]
B
I think it's important to go back to the point that Jesus would walk through each of these categories and that he would hunker down on Go Dogs, hunker down. He would hunker down on things like sexual sin and the devastating reality of it in so many different situations and relationships. Like go back to the very beginning of the Sermon on the Mount. Blessed Shalom.
- [38:22]
C
Right.
- [38:23]
B
Flourishing is the target.
- [38:25]
C
Right.
- [38:25]
B
In the kingdom for the life. And so it's not don't do this because I said it. It's don't do this because flourishing is what I want for you.
- [38:34]
C
Yeah.
- [38:35]
B
And there is a way to flourish in the kingdom of God according to the way God has designed things.
- [38:40]
C
Yeah, I said it because I'm the good shepherd and in me is. Is abundant life. And that's what I want for you.
- [38:46]
B
Exactly.
- [38:47]
D
Sending to death is not a metaphor. It's real.
- [38:50]
B
It's real.
- [38:50]
D
It's really going to kill you.
- [38:52]
B
Who can't give testimony to the fact that sin kills things.
- [38:55]
C
Right, right.
- [38:56]
D
I was with one of the campus pastors, Pastor Ryan Horner, and he was talking and he said. He said it really well. He said, which do you think is more likely? That the spirit of God is in me and somehow failing to do what he promised he would do by conforming me into Christ's image and changing my desires? Or is it more likely. I don't know him. Yeah, I was like, probably the option B.
- [39:23]
B
Well, you said it tonight. We talked about it on one of the podcasts. Either one coming out, I don't know, but we talked about it at some point. Conviction for sin. The conviction, the invitation, or it's a warm blanket to the soul.
- [39:36]
C
I think I heard you say that the first time.
- [39:38]
B
Well, it's a paradigm shift for me because I grew up in conviction for sin was taught as a very harsh, negative, almost like a car crash type experience, that it was supposed to be painful and traumatic and it was God, you know, course correcting you, which I totally understand. What I think is the spirit behind that. What I have found to be true as a son in the kingdom is that when the Holy Spirit convicts me, what he's doing is drawing me in closer to the Father's heart for the better thing. And so is the. Is the stirring, the new affections thing that there's a greater affection, that he's conviction is an invitation away from isolation and into intimacy with the Father. And I know grown men don't use the word intimacy and isolate. You know that we don't think about this, but this is exactly what it is. It's like if I want to be near to my wife, then I have to choose to be near to my wife.
- [40:40]
C
Right.
- [40:40]
B
In my words and my action and my temperature and my tone. The other option is to be over here doing my thing and see my wife as somebody that's just there to give me what I want her to do. Play the part that I want her to play. And often we treat God that way. God, you're there. You just play the part that I need you to play. But I'm over here doing my own thing. Well, you didn't just end up there. Like that is a very isolated, lonely place to live. But that is not the Father's heart for you, you know?
- [41:08]
C
Yeah. If you read. If you read Romans 1 and 2, you find out that it's actually God's wrath to give you over to your own desires.
- [41:14]
B
100.
- [41:16]
C
And it's God's grace that you get busted. And the conviction of sin, it's God's kindness that leads us to repentance.
- [41:25]
B
And I see us lose this thing that hell is locked from the inside.
- [41:28]
C
Yep, that's it.
- [41:29]
B
That hell is the. The fullness of you getting what you always wanted, which is life without God and without his rule and reign. And that leaves you with me, mine more, and Satan forever.
- [41:39]
C
That's right.
- [41:40]
D
Tell me if you like this analogy. You know, the warm blanket, the invitation of conviction doesn't mean there's no pain. You ever see one of these athletes that get their shoulder out of socket and the trainer comes over and it's like, all right, I'm gonna put it back, but it's gonna hurt, you know, so the question.
- [42:05]
B
Let's deep dive it a little bit, because I know what you're saying, and there is pain involved. It's like you.
- [42:10]
D
But you want to others, you want to side of it.
- [42:13]
B
Is the sin? Is the pain the consequence and the reality of the sin that's painful? Is the pain a sadness, a godly sadness? Because you know that you have committed sin against Almighty God and against yourself. In regards to sexual sin specifically, is there a sadness and is there some pain in there? Yes. But is there pain in conviction? Do you see what I'm saying?
- [42:49]
D
Yeah. Yeah.
- [42:50]
B
I'm not. I'm not sold. Maybe there is, and we're getting into this issue of semantics. It. I've just not experienced it. Maybe it's an issue of perspective. When I feel the Holy Spirit convict me, I feel it and have experienced it as an invitation to nearness.
- [43:09]
D
Right. It is something you want. I think it is something that you want. You say, I want to be on that side of it, not this.
- [43:17]
B
Yes, but there is all kinds of pain in the situation by which conviction comes in the middle of.
- [43:25]
D
Right.
- [43:26]
C
I think you go to the Beatitudes. Blessed are those who mourn, because that's what it is. Because you're really mourning your sin and the condition that you're in. So maybe instead of pain, use the word mourn, but I will. The example I've used is if you had a broken leg and you went to a physician and he reached for the break and you're like, whoa, whoa, don't touch that. It hurts. He said, hold on, I don't think you understand. I've got to get my hands on the thing that's broken for it to be made well. So I'm not trying to beat anybody up tonight, but I'm also not trying to give anybody a pass. I'm hoping and praying that the great physician will grab onto that wound and it's going to sting at first.
- [44:11]
B
Yeah, well, you said that tonight at the end, like, I'm not trying to beat anybody up. And I just. As your friend and brother, you. You handle hard text so well.
- [44:20]
C
Well, you just really just say what it says instead of trying to, like, do the gymnastics to make it not,
- [44:27]
B
you know, what makes it hard is the humanity, not God's heart in it.
- [44:33]
D
Correct.
- [44:33]
B
That makes sense.
- [44:34]
C
Yeah. And you know the other thing too, bro, you can be a Pharisee in
- [44:37]
B
two seconds for sure.
- [44:40]
C
So my parents divorced when I was in high school and it was terrible. So when I, although I've not been divorced and Gretchen's not been divorced, we've all been affected by it. And it, it just helps if you just try to sit in that seat. And the pain and the, you know, and then the other thing, the reason I brought up the, you know, it's easy to be all judgy. Like when I was a seminary student in Africa talking to the Masai tribe and the Kenyans and there were some guys that were Christians, you know, and, and, and had multiple wives, I was like, you can't do that. How can this man be a Christian and have multiple wives? And so I was going to go tell him I was probably 22. I was like, look, dude, you don't get to do this. And he just was like, yeah, y' all have divorce. At least I take care of all mine. And I was like, oh, my gosh. So I didn't try to get at that point. I mean, it was a mic drop moment. And I'm not trying to justify having multiple wives. You don't get to do that. But, boy, it sure was easy to sit in a seated judgment as a 22 year old, you know what I mean?
- [45:49]
B
For sure.
- [45:50]
C
And he's just like, we don't discard ours. So yikes no doubt's heavy. So that divorce one we. I mean, one of the things you
- [45:59]
B
do really well, and I've learned a lot from you in it, is that you don't preach today out there somewhere. And you don't preach to other preachers who are listening, which I think a lot of preachers do. They're just up there preaching to preachers.
- [46:13]
C
There's no doubt, no good.
- [46:16]
B
And the preachers you're not help press
- [46:17]
C
ain't listening to you, dude.
- [46:18]
B
That's right.
- [46:19]
C
And I'm just telling you Dr. Piper and Chandler are not listening to your sermons.
- [46:24]
D
You're making your congregation miserable. So stop.
- [46:26]
B
You preach to people who have names and you know their stories.
- [46:29]
C
I. I look around the.
- [46:31]
B
You always have. And I just admire that a lot and I think it translates you. It lands in that way. And so I just would encourage you that man having handled a few hard texts, not near as many as you've had to, you just do it so well. You just have such a really pastoral gift in that. And I think it blesses our church.
- [46:50]
C
I definitely want people to know that, that the label of divorce is not the biggest label in their life. E, honestly, even if it was your fault, you know, but we live in a culture now, dude. People throw like divorce parties, you know that, like celebrated. This isn't good. Now, now I do. I can make a very easy, clear case where there is abuse, abandonment and infidelity, but even not the abuse one. And it's hard to stay married if somebody just leaves. But it's still not the first reaction, even the infidelity. You got to think about it like what God has joined together. Okay, so what you're talking about is an amputation. You are going to cut away half of you. This is the last resort. You know, still Jesus is saying, you're not sinning, but you just want to make sure. Listen, the people. I have names in my mind right now. The people have come to me that wanted to get divorced. And I don't know why they wanted to talk to me because they know what I'm going to say. But what I was hoping for them. One, I'm hoping for a miracle. Because if the tomb is empty, anything is possible. And God is still in the miracle business. If he can breathe new life into his dead son, he can breathe new life into a broken marriage. Okay, Even that being said, some of them that end in divorce. What I was hoping for the person is that they could lay their head on the pillow at night with a clean conscience. Before the Lord and said, I went the extra mile. Like, I really. I didn't see this as, like, well, I'm out because you broke the rule. And so now I am justified to leave because you never. Because the moment you try to justify your actions, man, that's different than the justification Christ purchases for you on the cross. And at the end, I went through the list. We are all the failures in these things towards God. We've made him angry. We have commodified him, tried to use him like a genie to get what we want. We have been unfaithful to him. We have broken promises to Him. We have. We have backhanded him to the face in our rebellion. We had. We. We were an enemy. And in every one of those. He loved us. So that's got to be the first foot. And I. And I could. So if you're in a terrible, struggling marriage that may end in divorce. Divorce one day out.
- [49:35]
B
If.
- [49:35]
C
If you're being abused, separation is immediate. And you call the police and you call a counselor and you call your church, and they should all work together to help you. So we're not talking about that. But if there's. If there's been sexual immorality, forgiveness is still possible. And if it ends in divorce, you just want to be able to lay your head on the pillow at night and be like, lord, I did. Every. As far as it was up to me. I tried to live at peace, but it was. There was no future. It was dead.
- [50:08]
B
One of my closest friends went through a terrible situation. His wife committed adultery. And very early in their marriage, terrible situation. And had every legal right, had every.
- [50:25]
C
And up.
- [50:26]
B
And she just resolved in her mind that she was divorcing him. It's one of the few situations I've ever run into where it was like, 95. 5%.
- [50:34]
C
Yeah.
- [50:35]
B
You know, and even up until the, like, last second at the table, he's
- [50:42]
C
begging,
- [50:45]
B
please, is there any way we can not sign these papers and we can work through this? I mean, up until the. And she's just dug in like a tick. It's just, you know, and. But I just super hard. I. I can't even imagine all the complication and emotion in that. But my respect for him was like, bro, only the power of God at work in somebody's life. I mean, that's Jose and Gomer stuff, what he was doing, man. It's real. And we say it all the time. If the tomb is empty, anything is possible. We've got story after story after story of divorces. That ended up getting remarried.
- [51:25]
C
Y here. Yep.
- [51:26]
B
Because the gospel got involved after the divorce. And there will be testimony, videos of this coming up. No question about.
- [51:33]
C
Also, this shocks people sometimes when. When they're going through a divorce and they're like, what do I do? And I said, never stop fighting for your spouse. Regardless of what the legal paperwork says, you still love her like Christ loved the church, even if she doesn't. Even if it was your fault or it was her fault or whoever's fault it was, you take the responsibility of the husband. And so if one day, legally you are the ex husband, you'd be the best ex husband you ever like. You should still just be grace upon grace. And you never stop fighting for your children, not with them and not fighting with your spouse for your kids, but you fight for their hearts. You fight for time with them, and you continuously pursue.
- [52:13]
B
One of the things I try to encourage folks with and maybe encourage somebody listening is, you know, there's the old adage, misery loves company. Sometimes when you're going through a hard time in your marriage, what's easy and even at times most accessible is other divorced people. And so you go and start getting marriage advice from other divorced people. And I'm not saying God can't speak through that. I would just offer, get most of your advice from people who you think and have seen are in the healthiest marriages. Go to them versus going to people who have walked, who have walked through or walking through really similar trauma. You know, who you go to and give your ear to, because you can easily create an echo chamber, if you will, unintentionally. And so whether that's angry people can find angry people. And angry people can't help angry people out of anger. And people that are in a marriage mess, they can love each other and encourage one another. They can't really help each other help somebody else out of the marriage mess. If you're in a marriage mess, you know, healthy people need to help unhealthy people, I guess, is the thing that I'm.
- [53:30]
C
Yeah, I mean, all of us are recruiting people to something. You need to ask, what are these people recruiting me to? I've heard story after story after story of a couple and like a neighbor is a recently divorced guy, and then the husband starts hanging out with him and he's recruiting him to that life, that kind of thing. Yeah. You know what I mean?
- [53:52]
B
That's exactly what I'm talking about.
- [53:53]
C
No, so, so then you ask, what are we recruiting to? We're recruiting to this we're recruiting to. Let's try to live in God's world, God's way. We're trying to. I'm trying to recruit people to Jesus. Recruit people to the abundant life, you know, recruit people to forgiveness, you know, to peace and love and unity and a promise keeping God. And not retaliation, but forgiveness. This is what we're trying to recruit people to.
- [54:22]
D
Yeah.
- [54:23]
B
Can we turn the. To the next. One of the things I think you preached on tonight, Jesus's words. And I think I've only ever maybe heard you teach on it this way, but I've really never heard that many people teach on it. Well, at least. And it's the turn the other cheek thing. I thought the way you handled that was really, really good. I think it's worth another lap because I think it is so counterintuitive to the wishy washy, watered down Jesus that people have taught you.
- [54:51]
D
Talking about insult versus attack.
- [54:54]
B
100%.
- [54:54]
C
That's it. Well, I made up the words, but
- [54:57]
D
that was so good.
- [54:57]
C
So literally, if you back into me in the face right now like you
- [55:02]
B
did Stone that one time. We love you, Stoner.
- [55:06]
C
No doubt it was an accident then I, I actually should not swing back if you're not attacking me, if you're just insulting me, you know, but if you're attacking me, I owe it to my family to stay on that wall and you don't get to take me out that way. You know, I am, I am an autonomous image bearer of God and worth defending. And for sure, if you're attacking the people that are under my stewardship, if somebody comes to this church to fight, I'm, I'm going to fight them. But when the guys are out there picketing that one time insulting me, I don't get to go insult back. So the question is, what are you defending? If you have to be physical in defense, what are you defending? So if I'm defending my own ego, which is actually my insecurity because I've been insulted, you're not supposed to do that. If I'm actually defending image bearers of God, whether that be legally or physically or politically, we should fight. That's the difference. Because the reality is, is that violence in this broken world is necessary and every. Nobody's an actual pacifist. They just outsource their violence. Like, like a person that's like, well, I just, you know, I'm a Christian so there's no way I would have a gun and I would never fight back. What if somebody breaks in your house what you going to do? Well, you're going to call the police and outsource that violence. But the reality is, is that it's going to take them a couple minutes to get there. So what are you going to do while they're taking advantage of your wife? Pray for them. No, man. The person that does not provide for his family, that doesn't just mean food and clothes, that. That means provision and protection, then you're not doing your job. And. And so where I would need to grow is when I get insulted or even physically confronted, my. My flesh wants to react, and you've got to respond in love. And love is action towards something that matters, you know, but if I react, then all I'm doing is I'm reenacting an evil with another evil. And we're not supposed to do that. This is where, like, where your dad taught you a Wild Bill? Yeah. So. So in when it comes to insults and accusations, your dad, Wild Bill said, nah, you don't need to defend yourself because either they're right and you got something to learn, or they're wrong and God is your defender.
- [57:47]
B
He did, man. I was in my 20s. It's a long story, but I'll be short because of time. I was in my 20s. I was working at a church, a young church, four years. It was going pretty good. And the lead pastor just went off the.
- [58:02]
C
Is that the letter?
- [58:03]
B
Rails Wrote the letter and the whole thing. I'm 27, 28 years old, and kind of our overseeing body called me up and they were like, hey, we let him go. The lead pastor is no longer the lead pastor. We're not sure what we're going to do next, but if you just hold it together and we'll let you know. I'm like, 27. There's hundreds and hundreds, hundreds of people. The only thing I can think is to call, start calling the leaders and the key volunteers and people of the church and sitting with them and just trying to minister to them and do my best to try to explain what has happened and keep there for me, confusion and just in, you know, division. Well, I'm the only one. And it just is brutal. You know what I mean?
- [58:55]
C
Yeah.
- [58:56]
B
And I'm taking it very personally, even though I didn't really have anything to do with it. And that's when I called my dad on the phone.
- [59:04]
C
I'm like, dad?
- [59:05]
B
And he's like, look, man, you do not need to defend yourself. And if you did something wrong, then the Holy Spirit will convict you and you should own that and repent to whomever and wherever appropriate he goes. But if you're in the right, the Lord will defend you in his time. That one thing has changed everything about everything, about everything in my life, my marriage. I try, I try like crazy not to defend myself in my marriage. It's the one place that I still do.
- [59:38]
C
Yeah, I've got a lot going on. We were talking about this earlier. You said this. We were having a meeting with a staff.
- [59:44]
B
This is early on. This is 10 years ago, probably.
- [59:46]
C
Yeah. And you said that. And I was like, holy moly. So we get done with the meeting. I don't do it in the meeting. But I'm like, dude, can we talk about that for a minute? I. I defend myself all the time because I'm convinced. If I can convince you of my intentions and what I know, then you'll understand what I do. It's never worked one time in my life.
- [60:08]
B
Makes sense logically. Yeah.
- [60:10]
C
Yeah. What I thought of is apparently there are at least some people like on. They have tick tock channels right now that are pointing out things about me online that are untrue. They're just factually untrue. They'll put like the thing up, be like, look at this. And it's about my net worth and stuff. Well, right under it says, I was born in 1982. Well, I was born in 1973. So it be so easy to dig in and, and point that out. You know what I mean? And then be like, okay, if that one's wrong, don't you think these other claims might be wrong too? Like, it doesn't have the right place. I went to school. Doesn't have the right place. Gretchen, I got married. It doesn't. It's got a lot of facts about Rick Warren under my name. I've never even lived in California anyway. And then I just go, well, it's just an untrue insult.
- [61:01]
B
It's an untrue insult.
- [61:03]
C
So just the Lord will do what he does with it. But I know it's not true. So. I mean, it's not. My daddy said it's. That's like wrestling a pig, man. Everybody gets dirty and the pig likes it. That's it. That's right. So you just don't do it. But that is not my norm. That is not my instinct at all.
- [61:27]
B
It's not the same thing as it's not saying, don't be. Be a doormat.
- [61:30]
C
Not at all. That's the turn of the other cheek too, so.
- [61:32]
B
Exactly.
- [61:33]
C
If you read Henry Cloud. Right. Boundaries. Okay. There's a lot of, like, boundary stuff in here that turned the other cheek is like, no, I'm a human being, and you will address me as a man. You know, and you don't have endless cheeks either. Right. That thing goes from insult to abuse. You're gonna be like, no, we don't do that. You don't treat me this way. That. That has a lot to do with it. And you've got to know where you end and somebody else begins. And a boundary is not a wall. The problem when you. So in our current over Therapeutic world, the. The problem is, is that we use the buzzword of mental health to try to get out of anything hard because it's bad for my mental health. That's actually just mental fragility. Mental health means I can walk through hard things, and if something bugs me, I don't avoid it. I need to learn how to step through it. And so the idea of boundaries, because what a lot of people are taught today, especially like, college kids and safe spaces and the trigger words getting overused and stuff, is you avoid those things at all costs. So I put up a wall. The problem with the wall is no good can come in and even worse, no bad can get out. And so you see people breaking family relationships over political parties. Bro, this is not good. The boundaries that Henry Cloud talks about, which Jesus exemplifies, Jesus is like, I'm leaving y' all right now. I'm going on that mountain to be by myself. Don't you come with me. I need to go be with the Father. That's a boundary.
- [63:11]
B
Yep.
- [63:11]
C
But it's like a fence with a gate, and you determine what you're going to let in and out. And that's the difference.
- [63:19]
B
Amen.
- [63:20]
D
That's funny. I thought of, you know, we need to wrap up. But with the loving your enemies thing, I thought about, like, politics because so many people today, like, I have to have agreement first. You know, it's like, it's. Everything's contingent upon everything. And then maybe there's a fear that if I reach out in love, it's almost as if I'm giving agreement to something I disagree with. So could you close with, like, some. Some practical helps for navigating that.
- [63:49]
C
Here's. Here's. Jesus is again. This is the way I ended the sermon. If we could.
- [63:55]
B
If.
- [63:55]
C
If our operating system could get set on. So how did God treat you?
- [64:01]
D
All right.
- [64:02]
C
That's how I want you to treat people. All right. So when we were an enemy of God. What did he do? So what is it? Matthew 9, he's going to say, I ain't looking for sacrifice. I'm looking for mercy. So when something politically happens and all the Christian podcasters go out and just start throwing darts at the other side, Jesus is like, imagine, could you just put yourself in their seat for a minute?
- [64:29]
B
Mh.
- [64:29]
C
Because here's what. Here's every time I've had enough sense to actually do this and dig down deep, when somebody does something that I think is just absolutely wrong, what I begin to learn is, you know what? I bet if I grew up the way they grew up, and I bet if I had the relationship with my dad that they have or don't, and I bet if I'd been treated that way by a church, you know what I mean? Then I. I might think outside of the spirit of God changing me, I'd probably think what they think. And it. It can give you a little bit of compassion and mercy for somebody instead of judgment. Because in Matthew 9, the Pharisees, what they're doing is like, this isn't fair. You know what we've done. You know how much we've given up to follow after you. And Jesus is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. See, that's. That's the problem. You think you're up here with me on the judgment seat, looking down with the people that haven't done. No, no, no. When you began to realize that you were a. You could be a recipient of mercy, then you could allow yourself to say, but by the grace of God, there
- [65:33]
D
go I. Yeah, yeah. I was with Pastor Ben Williams recently, and he. He said that he's like, I've received so much grace. I can give some grace out, you know, so good.
- [65:46]
C
Jeff Foxworthy, one of my favorite things, he says, man, I talked. I've got to know him pretty good. And his. And, you know, everything he says, it's, like, humorous, but it's so true because we were talking. I was just in Atlanta, like, two weeks ago or something, praying at the Dallas Safari Club. And so I get out of the airport and I get on the highway. It's the Jeff Foxworthy highway. So I holler at him, like, bro, you ever think you'd have a paved road with your name on it? I was just trying to think of, like, a redneck thing to say. And he was like, man, I'm going to tell you, I'm. I'm about three decisions away from hanging drywall for the rest of my life, you know what I mean? That is a humble way to look at things. Like, it's just by the grace of God, that and his indwelling spirit that he. This is what he would say. That I've made some decisions that have landed me where I've landed. And I mean, all of us have a. That thing in us that could derail us in one second.
- [66:46]
D
Yeah. Amen. Well, thank you, Pastor, for. I didn't even know how long it was because I was, I was enthralled. It was amazing. So thank you for the sermon. There's so many. There's so much we could talk about, but we're out of time, so let's pray it up.
- [67:04]
C
Yeah, man. Shout out to the, the people at 11:22.
- [67:09]
B
Amen.
- [67:13]
C
I mean, people, they say nice things to me, that's fine. But you, you realize this is the easiest group of people to teach the Bible to because there's they, I mean, it's fertile soil. I'm saying some of the hardest things. And I see, I see people dealing with anger and divorce and whatever, and they're just receiving it with like, like the seed that lands on fertile soil. So this thing is a, it's, it's not a conversation because, you know, but it is a total two way street in the giving and receiving of the word. So there's no way I would have the ability to do this if it's just a bunch of stonewall faces. So thank you. All right, let's pray. Father in heaven, Lord, we love you because you love us first. And God, would you give us eyes to see ourselves the way you see us? And would you give us a spirit filled ability to love others the way you have loved us? We pray in Jesus name.
- [68:15]
D
Amen.
- [68:15]
B
Thank you for listening to the podcast.
- [68:18]
C
The end.
- [68:18]
D
You nailed it.
- [68:25]
A
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