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- [00:01]
A
Welcome to Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin. The Church of 1122 is a movement for all people to discover and deepen a relationship with Jesus Christ. And we're praying this message helps you deepen your relationship with him. Now let's dive in.
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B
Lisa, what's it like speaking at your home church in front of 3,000?
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C
Probably a lot.
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B
A lot more. They're standing. Standing room only, so probably 4,000. 4,000.
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C
Yeah.
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D
Yeah, it sounds like a good idea. Until about two minutes from about to walk on stage, I'm like, what have I signed up for? No, you know, it's, it's, it's a. It's a different level of weight, I think, when I'm at my home church because I'm with my people, you know, my pastor's sitting on the front row, so. Have you ever preached in front of Pastor Joby?
- [00:52]
B
Oh, I. Yes, it was. It was years ago and I'm sure it was terrible.
- [00:57]
D
Well, hopefully it wasn't terrible tonight, but yeah, you know, there's a. There's a weight to it and I'm very grateful.
- [01:03]
E
It wasn't not terrible. It was an incredible word. Yeah. I mean, just an incredible word. Yeah. I mean, it sounds silly to tell Lisa Tucker that you have a gift, but I mean, you really do. Thank you for being faithful with your gift. Thank you for teaching the Bible, you know.
- [01:20]
D
Thank you.
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E
Way to go, man. Way to go.
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B
Pastor Joby, you talk often about the way that knowing the stories of the people that are sitting in front of you impacts how you communicate, you know, so did you feel that too? Like you're thinking of. I know what. I know what they're going through. I know.
- [01:37]
E
Can I tell you? Yeah. Front center, really blonde headed lady and her daughter, just younger version, same blonde hair. Years ago, I had the, honestly, the privilege of pastoring her through a marriage that died. H. And so to see. I was watching her face as you were preaching and to see the, like, she connected on the sad stuff, but she had hope and God has redeemed her story. And that guy's not there and he was abusive. And when she first came to see me, she's like, hey, she. She said, I need to talk about divorce. And I was like, you know, you're not going to like what I said say, but if you'll just stick this thing out with me one day, I promise you'll love me. And I just told her. I was like, listen, at. At that point, it wasn't, you know, technically speaking, she did not yet have Biblical grounds for, you know, but the guy was freaking crazy. And the thing I wanted her to be able to do. And I love this lady so, so, so much. And she's the. So sweet. She's just the nicest, sweetest person ever. And I wanted her in. If it did end the way it did, I. And I told her, I was like, trust me, you're going to want to be able to lay your head down on the pillow and with a clean and clear conscience say, lord, I did everything you told me to do and then you can keep living, you know? And so she was mad at me first and. But I mean, so mature and. And I told her, you. You don't have to hear what I say, but you came here to me and I'm just going to tell you what the Bible says. And then, honestly, it got physical. And the second he crossed that line, it was, we're calling the cops. And I would. 100%. There's two explicit reasons for divorce. Infidelity and abandonment. And I think abuse is under abandonment. And it takes me about three verses to get you there. Nope. Okay. And so anyway, it was to. You know, it's hard for me to preach that, sir. I can't preach that sermon. I'm just holding my wife's hand the whole time thinking we've never had to be there. You know what I mean? So that's part of the reason. It's really good to have, you know, different voices at your church other than to just listen to me. But way to go. Such vulnerability and conviction. That's hard to do both. Some people can be sappy with, like, no point, no application, but this is hard. My life was hard. Right? And then some people can teach a lot out of this book and it appears if they've never had a struggle in the world, Right? Boy, it takes a real gift to preach with grace and truth, you know.
- [04:33]
D
So thank you, Joby.
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E
Way to go.
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D
You know, when it comes to the topic of divorce, I felt the weight of not having studied divorce in the Bible. I felt the weight of it. And so I sat down with the theologian that works for me, Dr. Joel Mutamale. And we took time to really dig into the scriptures. And I didn't come with an agenda. I didn't come with, hey, Bible, tell me what I want to hear. It wasn't that. It was like, I have to hear from God because I don't wanna make a move without it. And so we just finished writing a book. It'll come out this fall. It's called Surviving an Unwanted Divorce. And inside the book, it is the biblical theology of divorce. It truly follows through the Scriptures what the Bible does say and what the Bible does not say. And I'm really grateful to have that now. It helped me personally so much. But I also pray, you know, who wants to sit around and study divorce in the Bible? But I. I pray that it becomes a resource and not only helps people who walk through it, but also helps people who are caring for people who are walking through it.
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C
So one thing that was impactful for me, that I learned this year from a book I read by J.T. english, is a lot of people know stories from the Bible, but they don't really know the story of the Bible.
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E
That's good.
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C
And so tonight, you helped weave the story of Joseph into the story of the Bible, which is ultimately a story of reconciliation.
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F
Right.
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C
But you. You kind of cast a vision of a dichotomy between reconciliation and rescue. Timing is the issue, though, Right. Because some people don't know, am I still in the reconciliation phase, where that's possible. And if, you know, the tomb is empty, anything is possible.
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F
Right.
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C
Or it's time to pop smoke and get the heck out of here.
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F
Right.
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C
And so abuse kind of helps, you know, quicken that. Death quickens it immediately. Adultery quickens that. But how many reconciliation stories have you heard of people that have. Their marriages, have survived infidelity of some kind? And so how in the world do you practically get to the timing of reconciliation versus rescue?
- [06:50]
D
Yeah, it's. It's a. It's a tough, tough thing for me. I think Leslie Vernick gave me a great quote. She's written some tremendous books called. One of them is called the Emotionally Destructive Marriage. And in it, she points out there's a big difference between a difficult marriage and a destructive marriage. A difficult marriage is one we want to fight for. And, you know, I. One of the fears that I had being a woman in ministry is I didn't want it to. I didn't want to somehow inadvertently make it seem like this is the answer to all problems, because it's not the answer to all problems.
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E
And that's what a bunch of mean people said to you, right? A bunch of.
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D
Yes.
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C
I treated it like it was a scarlet letter, but it wasn't.
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D
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, one of the famous passages, maybe one of the only passages that people know, it's from Malachi, chapter two, God hates Divorce. Well, I think it's crucial that we really, really get intentional about studying scriptures like that, so that we don't weaponize them against people who truly are wanting to hear from the Lord. And we don't want to weaponize those verses and hurt them even more than they're already hurt. So when I got into that verse, it was so fascinating. That version of that verse didn't come out until the King James version. But the King James is not the first version of the Bible. We gotta walk it all the way back to Septuagint.
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E
Isn't that what Jesus used?
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D
He didn't use exactly. Well, no, that's not what good enough.
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E
For Jesus and his disciples.
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D
So. But if you go back and really dig into the original language, the important thing to look at is, is where is the hatred? Where is it directed toward? And so in the original language, what the verse I believe actually says is when a man hates and divorces his wife, he does violence against the one he should protect. Thus says the Lord. The Lord isn't directing hatred toward the, in my case, the woman who's trying so hard to save her marriage. But it's, it, it's not working. The hatred is not directed toward me. It's when a man hates and divorces his wife, he does violence against the one he should protect. Thus says the Lord. There's a big difference between that and God hates divorce. So if you look at though in the Scriptures like the esv, it now says the version that I just said instead of God hates divorce, there's a footnote. So you can look. Obviously it's highly debated. Lots of theologians have taken a look at it. But I think it's really important that we know the Scriptures and that we do not use the scriptures to than our agenda, but rather we use the scriptures in appropriate way that we can be educated so that we don't weaponize verses, but rather really let God speak to us.
- [09:34]
E
Don't you think the fact that you were a professional, very, very successful Bible teacher for all those years, God was preparing you to know the Bible, to walk. I mean, this is some like lamp unto my feet and light to my path. And it's not just that you knew the Bible. It's almost like the metanarrative of your relationship with the Bible. You know, I do this here all the time. You weren't coming to the Bible like in authority over it, saying, I'm gonna tell you what you're gonna tell me back for a long time, I mean decades, I guess you were submitted under it. And you'll never learn something like when you have to teach it that's right. And you know what it reminds me of? My friend Matt Chandler has been here a bunch. And when he took over what was Highland Village Baptist or whatever and turned it into the village church, he was convicted of the Lord to train his perfect little Dallas suburb people for pain and suffering. And that was his bent towards his sermon, towards the kinds of sermons he preached, for the topics he preached. Little did he know God was preparing him to deal with brain cancer.
- [10:50]
D
I know, it's crazy.
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E
You know, that's what came to mind. Lysa Turker's the Bible teacher.
- [10:56]
D
A lot of people have said to me, lysa, do you feel like you had such a big target on your back and the enemy just came after you and came after your marriage? And I get that. And yes, I do believe that the enemy does attack us. And I do believe, obviously, in spiritual warfare and all of that, but I think sometimes we give the devil too much credit. You know, I kind of think it's like, how good of God to have put me in a position to study God's Word my whole professional career so that I would be knee deep in it and could not escape it when I needed it the most. So do I think that, you know, I was in ministry and I got attacked and that's why my marriage failed? I do not. I think we serve a good God who knew what was going to happen. He placed me in ministry, and he said, I'm going to fill you up with God's word because if. If you do not have God's word in this, you will not survive.
- [11:56]
C
Well, Lisa, you were here last night when Phil Hopper brought the Word. And we said this yesterday when we discussed this, when he started talking about his marriage, a silent room got quieter somehow. The oxygen sucked out of the room. Did you notice that? Yes, because I'm not really attuned to that stuff normally, but I felt like. Like, it felt like everybody was taking a deep breath. It almost seemed like a little bit of a spiritual setup for tonight where you're walking through the pain of what. What you went through, and you said this quote. It's hard to walk towards a future that you never saw coming. One and that you don't even want. Two. Haven't we talked about that recently? Joby and so, so many men. Because his audience is split. Mine's 95% and. But we did come up with a name for the women that listen to my show. They're the 5 percenters, right? We need to get them, like, patches for their. You Know, for their vest that they wear on their backs of their choppers. But the thing is, is the people that are leaning into stuff like this, everything is telling them, first, second, third wave feminism, fourth wave feminism, the culture, everything on the algorithm is telling them you do. You boo, you know, just. You can figure it out later, don't worry about it. You just be happy, whatever that means. Even though that's like a moving target all the time. And so, like, to the guy or gal listening to this right now, it's like, but why take another step towards the thing that. That I don't want, that. That I didn't see coming, that I don't see God in right now? Like. Like, what advice do you give to Joseph in prison? To where it's like, hey, I know it's day, you know, 557, but, hey, tomorrow, you don't know what's going to come for you.
- [13:26]
D
Yeah. So if I was having. If I was going to sit down and have a conversation with Joseph, I would say to Joseph, you have no idea. You have no idea what's in your future. But God absolutely has a future, and he's already standing in it. And, you know, sometimes we get so afraid. I mean, fear has been a huge part of my journey. And you cannot tell me that Joseph was not going to bed in that dungeon. Afraid, feeling like all hope was lost. I know what that feels like. It's interesting. Recently, I was studying the makings of the feeling of fear. There's four things that make up a feeling of fear. The first thing is the alert. Like, we can't change that. It's like something happens and we're alerted. Like, ugh, that scares me, you know? But the second thing that happens is memory. So what happens in our brain? Our brains are wired for the confidence of knowing. Our brain's always scanning. Am I safe? Am I safe? Am I safe? So the second thing that happens is that we go and we travel very quickly to a memory that this has happened before. And. And then we say, okay, when that memory happened before, was I safe or was I not safe? But then the next part that happens is perception. That's the story we tell ourselves. And that right there is why it is absolutely crucial that we do not conform to the patterns of this world. But we be transformed by the renewing of our mind so that we can test and approve and see what God's will is. Even in that split second of a feeling of fear. The story that we tell ourselves will determine what happens in that fourth aspect and that is response. So sometimes a feeling of fear is so legitimate. Don't step into the street. If you see a car coming, you should feel afraid, step back, right? But so many times there's this feeling of fear, and we start telling ourselves a story. And the story is really, you think God loves you. If God loves you, you wouldn't be here. If God loves you, you wouldn't have this. If God loves you, you wouldn't have gotten that diagnosis. Your child wouldn't be rebelling. Your marriage wouldn't be falling apart. Your husband would have never cheated. Your wife would be respectful. Like, if God loves you, all those things would be so much better. And that's why it's crucial that our mind get transformed so that the story we tell ourselves is, before I look at anything, before I experience any fear, I will stand on the truth. This is the lens through which I will look at my life.
- [15:51]
F
I.
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D
God is good. God is good to me, and God is good at being God. I don't have to understand what I'm going through. I don't have to like it, but I will stand on the truth, and I will make that the lens through which I look at every single aspect of my life. That's what I would tell Joseph.
- [16:07]
C
Hang on, Joby. You get to talk to her all the time. So I'm going to keep going. So. So what, what you're saying, right? When you said the word perception, I immediately thought of Second Corinthians 10 5. Take every thought captive and make it accountable to Christ, right? So I've given that verse to a lot of men for a very specific kind of sin that I was dealing with to where I would just use that as a weapon, right? And so Joby and I do something called the Daily Blade, and we're talking to an audience of men for five minutes. Like, we're not conjugating Greek verbs. We're not, like, getting crazy. It's like, we got five minutes to get your attention. Because we're trying to give them a taste of the Bible, but we're trying to help them sharpen the sword, right? That's why we end the whole thing with stay sharp, right? And I feel like biblical illiteracy has kept Christians from. I've told people guys before, it's like, look, I'll help you sharpen the sword. I'm not going to help you find it.
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E
Especially men, right? And so especially men.
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C
The issue becomes, it's not just that you have bad doctrine or you believe some wrong things. It's that you have no weapons to fight back with.
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F
Right, Right.
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C
And you know, for us, we're on the tip of the spear in ministry.
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F
Right.
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C
And so if the flaming arrow doesn't hit you, it's going to hit someone right next to you.
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F
Right.
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C
And it could be a very lonely place to be. But when you're equipping the saints for warfare and they, they won't even get their weapons out, it's just like, ah, gosh, it's just so frustrating.
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D
It really is. You know, it's so crucial that it's, it's. It's not just something we're supposed to have on our Christian checklist. Like, you know, pray, read my Bible, don't cuss, be nice. You know, that's not what the abundant life is about. What the abundant life is about is that we get into God's word each day and we realize God is preparing me with great intentionality for what I'm gonna walk through today, what I'm gonna see today. And you know what is so amazing is when I make the connection. That's why God had me read that verse today. And that is the transformation in my mind is my thought process. And it's the way that I view things, is the way I look at things. And when God interrupts my, my natural human instinct and reminds me of his truth, that's where the power is. And I want to speak really, really, really directly if I could, knowing that the vast majority of your audiences, men for, you know, the other thing that you do, I just want to say this. It's not worth the trade. It's not worth the trade. If you are married and it's gotten hard, you've gotten bored. You know, it really is one of the most dangerous things in the world for a man to get bored. And I think I've heard you say that before. Joby. Can I please just speak to the bottom of your heart? It is not worth the trade. It's not worth it. You know, I watched my ex husband, he had everything, get everything. He had a wife that adored him. He had kids that respected him, loved him to pieces. He had an amazing career. He had so much respect. I mean, other people had so much respect for him. And he gave it up. He gave it up. Such a bad trait. And you know, we went from, you know, he went from having this family that adored him that were big, building a legacy with and this beautiful home that we were living in and we were doing ministry and all this stuff. Now he's in an Apartment overlooking a Bojangles parking lot, and his kids don't even speak to him. And it's such a bad trade, it's not worth it. Do not let the enemy lie to you that there's something else better out there. The grass isn't greener on the other side. The grass is greener where you water it and you fertilize it. Don't break your wife's heart. Just don't do it.
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E
It's the other side of that, the positive side. Gretchen, I've been married for 25 years.
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D
Praise God.
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E
Church is going better than it's ever gone. This church this week is like the greatest week in the life of this church. It's just straight up, it's crazy.
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C
Hard to even describe.
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E
It is. It is. I'm telling you, if this is the 1800s, they'd be writing books about. I'm not kidding. It's like, you know, I mean, seriously, I bet we'll probably baptize a thousand people tomorrow, you know? Can't be going better. My relationships with the people that I get to work with. Like, look at these cats over here doing this thing, man. These people are the best. Like that guy right there, Ian. You know, at a lot of churches, people that do this aren't even Christians, right? And I was sharing a story about my son and about how his group leader, what he meant to him in his life, and he's like, that's why we're in this church. Because when his wife does run the kids ministry, so he might be a little biased, but we've got, like, our staff is the best. The outcomes right now are the absolute best. Okay? And yet when people ask me, how's it going? My. I can't. I don't have words to describe the gap between what's happening at home as first place, in what, the evidence of God's work and church being second place. Third John, chapter four. I mean, verse four says this. There's only one chapter, so third John four, I have no greater joy than this than to hear my children are walking in the truth. Okay, how about this? John wrote that that dude ate the last supper with Jesus. That dude participated in the feeding of 5,000. That dude received the revelation of the glorified Christ and the consummation of all things. And he's saying, first thing comes to mind when what makes me the most stoked in the world is not even that I saw a new heaven and a new earth and I got to write about it. It's that his Family was doing good. Yeah. So that word on. Don't trade it. That's a good word.
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D
And I also want to speak very tenderly, too, to the woman who is walking toward a future she didn't want. And she sits down at her table, and there's an empty chair, and then there are her kids. And I just want to say you can absolutely continue to build a stellar legacy. A stellar legacy. You know, my kids, they definitely have the scars of what we've walked through, but I'm telling you, they are good people who love the Lord, and we have come together as a family, and. And I'm telling you, when I do those Haven Place retreats. You saw the video early. Do you know who is the staff for the Haven Place retreats? It's my children and my grandchildren. They're the ones that are serving. They're the ones that are loving on the women. They're the ones that are praying. They're running the logistics and running the underpinnings of making sure that every single woman who walks into those retreats, that is what our God can do. So if you're a woman out there and you feel like it's over, you have no hope. And where are you supposed to go with your kids from here? Your job is to be obedient to God, and God will absolutely help you continue to build a legacy.
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C
Lisa. What?
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E
Go ahead.
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C
I was just going to say, you know, it's been a rough week for everybody for something that you alluded to with the murder of Charlie Kirk and even getting into this week, you miss saturated week. We're about to have a bunch of fun. We're going to record a bunch of podcasts. And I called Joby a couple days ago, and I'm like, dude, I can't. I can't. I'm, like, not sleeping right. Like, I can't. Like, we gotta record something. People keep asking, you know, for a different perspective than people screaming on Twitter. And so we record something and, you know, we just get it out there, and it's seem seemingly done really well for. For people to give them some perspective. But the message you just gave is the same message I heard on the lips of Erica Kirk yesterday.
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E
Wow.
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C
Who stood next to her husband's empty podcast chair.
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E
And did you listen to that?
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D
I did, so sure did.
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C
And, like, you know, you want to talk about an excuse to be bitter, an excuse to be pissed off at the world, an excuse to be mad at God, an excuse to curse the God that made you and everything, and what was her message. It was that message, Lisa. The message of, well, this. This doesn't mean anything is done.
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F
Right.
- [24:35]
C
It sucks that I have to tell my daughter that Dad's on a work trip with Jesus. The most brutal line I think I've ever heard my entire life. But that's not the end of the story. That's not a period, right?
- [24:44]
D
That's right.
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C
It's a comma.
- [24:46]
D
That's right. And I truly have seen in my life. And I know we'll see it in Erica's life and everyone else out there who trusts God in the midst of the unthinkable happening. I promise you, just like the scripture I said tonight, you intended to harm me, but God intended it. They have an intention. God has an intention. God intended for good, to accomplish something. The pain is not pointless. To accomplish something. The saving of many lives. And just like I was talking about, you know, sometimes I think. I mean, I sit in the back at your church. Like, I sit in one of those seats, and so I know what it feels like to sit there and think, well, I'm no Joseph. Like, I don't know how God's gonna use me. Like, what is that? You know, how you can have the greatest indication of how God's gonna use you is the very thing that the enemy tried to take you out. Whatever the enemy tried to use to take you out, that is a seed that can be planted in the soil of our good God Almighty. And I promise you that pain will not be pointless. And just like I said in the declaration that I stood up there tonight, you know, I'm gonna make the enemy regret he ever messed with a girl like me. You wanna break my marriage up? You wanna bust it all up? And, you know, I'm running a ministry called Proverbs 31 ministries, you know, and it's like, you wanna talk about somebody who felt like ministry is over for me, but at some point, I was like, you're not gonna take me out, because guess what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna trust Jesus. I'm gonna rise back up, and with the loudest voice I can, I'm gonna proclaim the good news of the gospel for every woman and every man out there that has had their heart broken. That's what Erica did last night, and that's what each of us should do. We don't have to be married to an American patriot, you know, that gets killed and has national attention. We gotta do this right now, right here where we're at. What is the pain point in Your life, that's where. That's where you can really go after the enemy. And what the devil meant for evil, God absolutely will use for good.
- [27:03]
E
Here's what I thought about with the like, well, who. Who is little old me? I'm not Joseph, the vice president of Egypt. You know, when you begin to make that turn. Okay, your husband Chaz is sitting right here. And lately on Deepen or something, we've been talking about fruitfulness and faithfulness. And long story short, the church that my wife grew up in is called Lone Star Church. And it might be 100, 125 people. And you may look at that church and be like, well, that's not a very fruitful church. Not like 1122. But they raised a little girl that became a godly woman. Her name was Gretchen Knisely when I met her. And in 2003, I was this close to stepping out of ministry, and she is the one that talked me into staying. And then I. And so we come here to Jacksonville. It doesn't make any sense on paper other than the beach that we should move here. And we do. Okay. And the only reason I did is because she was in my corner speaking life into me where I thought I was done. Then, long story short, 11:22 happens all the things. And one of the people Getting discipled in 11:22 is a guy named Chaz. And God uses the yes. Of Lone Star Church in Clifton Forge, Virginia, none of you've ever heard of it, to have an impact on one of the most impactful ministry to women in the. In the country, called Proverbs 31 ministries. And we by God's grace, have gotten to see how all these things work together. And that's the kind of thing you're talking about. You have no idea who that one more might be.
- [28:44]
D
Absolutely. Absolutely. Can I. Can I tell you one more thing? I didn't get to message tonight, but you just said two words and I was like, oh, I love that you said these two words. Okay, so in Genesis 41, I love to nerd out on the Bible. It's like one of my favorite things. Okay. Genesis 41. And we talked about earlier, we have old eyes, so it's hard to see the numbers. I think it's verse 50, it says, before the years of famine came two sons were born to Joseph. And of course, there's all kind of hard names in there, just like we said earlier. Okay. Joseph named his firstborn Manasseh and said it is because God made me forget all my trouble in all my father's household. And then the next verse said, the second son he named Ephraim and said, it's because God has made me fruitful in the land of my suffering. So basically, Joseph has two sons. He names one forgetful and he names the other fruitful. Can you imagine being at school like, is my brother forgetful? Is my other brother fruitful? You know, it's one of those things. But listen, what's so amazing, these two names, they're not just names of his son. These are names that Joseph is establishing his legacy through. Because that word forgetful is Nashah in the Bible. And that does not mean that he forgot what happened to him. That word means that he is going to choose intentionally to leave the hurt behind so that he can move forward. And the next one is he names his son Ephraim and says it's because God made me fruitful in the land of my suffering. Joseph never had his life go back to his homeland. His life never looked like he thought it was gonna look. As a matter of fact, the only time Joseph returned to the promised land was when the children of Israel gathered up his bones and carried with them when they wandered in the desert for 40 years. And then he got buried in the promised land. So what he's saying here is not only do I need to leave behind what could potentially hold me back, but right here in the middle of this land of my suffering, I will choose to be fruitful.
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E
So it's a, it's a foreshadowing to the gospel.
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D
Absolutely.
- [31:01]
E
Often misquoted Bible kind of verse idea is that God forgets your sin. That's not what it says. It says remembers no more. These are not the same thing. It's not like he doesn't know. And then you lay Matthew chapter 18 over it. And Jesus says that forgiveness is the canceling of a debt. So when Jesus on the cross pushes up and says tetelestai, first century bankers, when your mortgage was paid in full, they would stamp tetelestai on it. So it's not like the banker didn't remember that you had a debt. It's that debt has been paid in full. So I remember it no more. I put over in the paid in full side. That's what, that's what the Lord does with your sin. And so a big part of what you're saying is my worst days, my past are not going to get to tell me who I am. But the, but the God that holds the future in his hand, he's the one that Tells me my future. And when it's not going your way, when you told your Bible man story, two things are true. 1% chances that if you gave that Bible to a girl and not a guy, that the whole family gets saved are much, much, much lower. Just statistically, sociologically speaking, that's just true. If the dude gets saved, just, I mean, just the way it's actually a reflection of creation order. Okay. And then there's some single mom out there right now going, yeah, but what about me? And where, where the ideal is unrealized, grace abounds.
- [32:30]
D
That's right.
- [32:30]
E
And God gives you this family called a church, and we raise up men like your husband, that when the ideal, you know, one marriage, one man, one woman, one lifetime. When the ideal is unrealized, then grace abounds.
- [32:47]
D
That's right.
- [32:48]
E
And, and God can fill in some gaps where you think you're hopeless and helpless.
- [32:54]
C
That's what your talk did tonight. That's what your ministry does. And that's what. And, and isn't it so cool when you get to hear the story on the back end? Because guess what? Let's say you never ran in to Ron's daughter, right? So what?
- [33:09]
F
Right?
- [33:10]
C
Because you were called to be obedient and in that moment you chose obedience and you got to the cool story. Right? So good on you. But he introduced me, Joby introduced me to a single mother, speaking of which. From this church. And I get like choked up every time I think about it, but horrible situation, terrible baby daddy, abusive like the whole nine yards. Right?
- [33:30]
E
We told her story about three weeks.
- [33:31]
C
Yeah, I ran into her in your office again tonight. A son that's the same age as my oldest son. And so you want to talk about grace needing to abound through some darkness. Well, she's trying to be a God honoring single mother from a broken, battered past and somehow still get her son in and around godly men talking about God but also still being men. And so you know what? She gives her son a really good dose of the forging table, which is my roundtable Bible discussion and the Daily Blade. And so that little kid gets out of the car to go to kindergarten with the words on his lips, stay sharp. Which is how we, we end our episode.
- [34:10]
F
Right?
- [34:11]
C
You look for those opportunities that you may never get to hear the cool side of the story.
- [34:16]
F
Right?
- [34:17]
C
But every now and then when you get that, it's just that encouragement to keep going. And I think your story of Ron on the plane, like that's a story that's going to be a perspective shift for a lot of people. Because you're right when you talk about what fear does, we all have a plausibility structure, and we all have, like, matrices that we drop, you know, different occurrences into. And then we give ourselves the excuse to either act like a jerk or act, you know, generous or whatever the thing is. But you're giving people permission to just be obedient and be okay. Not hearing the results on the back end, I think that's enormous.
- [34:46]
E
My favorite was that I told him that, like, I was like, hey, there's this girl. And I'm just passing this along, you know, and think we're on the phone. It got real quiet. Then you hear, like, are you crying?
- [34:57]
C
Allergies in Oklahoma?
- [34:58]
E
Why are you crying?
- [34:59]
C
There's a lot of allergies.
- [35:00]
E
I mean, I work out. I have hobbies.
- [35:01]
C
You know what I mean?
- [35:02]
E
But it's all. But it's true, right? You just, you. I mean, that was a big part of it. And honestly, what's a bigger deal? Helping a mom raise her little boy or getting corn for some starving people? I mean, honestly, in the grand scheme of things, God heart. God's heart leans way more towards the widow and the orphan than people getting enough corn to eat.
- [35:23]
D
And, you know, one thing I didn't get to share was when I was on that tour and I met Ron's daughter and sister and that family friend, I had been in a place where I really, really, really needed to see that. God, you really do work behind the scenes. Because I was dealing with something that just felt so impossible and so hard. And, you know, I'm on the tour bus and literally, like, preaching to thousands and also feeling like this. This ache inside of my heart for this prayer that has gone unanswered for so long, and I'm like, lord, I just need to be reminded that you really, really do work behind the scenes. That this. That what I see is not all that there is. And how good of God to bring Ron's daughter 24 years later to remind me of the exact message that I needed to hear in that moment. You see, it's not just about having a one more and, like, reaching them and bringing them to church and, you know, whatever. It's about how God is going to use that one more, right? And I had no idea a quarter of a century later, God would use that one more to preach back a message to me. Like, I gave up my Bible. God gave me back life. Life in my soul 24 years later. Mind blowing.
- [37:06]
C
When it Goes right back to your story of Joseph of the two years. Right. But you weren't expectant for the, you know, being brought back to have a reunion with your Bible.
- [37:16]
F
Right.
- [37:17]
C
But God's timing. What would you say when it's like, when it's God timing, it's quick.
- [37:21]
F
Yeah, Right.
- [37:22]
C
So when Pharaoh called him out, it's like, no, it's quick.
- [37:24]
D
When God's time, it's quick time. And we know it's the right time. Yeah. God truly does love us too much to answer our prayers at any other time than the right time and any other way than the right way.
- [37:37]
B
Well, thank you, Lisa, so much. Just like every night, we could talk for a long, long time. Pastor Phil said it yesterday, on the other side of the death is resurrection. And what a beautiful reminder of all that. So thank you so much.
- [37:55]
E
Yeah. Lisa, it's an honor to be your friend.
- [37:58]
D
Thank you.
- [37:58]
E
Thanks for being friends with my wife, too.
- [38:02]
D
Oh, I love Gretchen. Well, I meant what I said.
- [38:05]
E
She's lovable. She's a real deal.
- [38:06]
D
Every great man, there's a really phenomenal.
- [38:09]
E
Woman and a surprise mother in law, and that's a fact. My in laws are awesome too. But, but.
- [38:19]
D
I.
- [38:19]
E
Because some people, some people hear you're at this church and they're like, what's she like? You know, and the amount of humility. I mean, you're a really big deal in the little Christian world, you know, I mean, you know, Christian fame is a goofy thing, but you are. And your humility. And as we met and got to know each other and, you know, me and Gretchen, you and Chaz and going to dinner and hanging out and stuff, guys, she could have, she would never say, Nobody would ever say these words, but, you know, some people could do a little black. You know who I am, and because of who I am, here's kind of what I would like to do. It was, it was humility. I mean, honestly, it's still kind of a weird thing when you call me your pastor. You know what I mean? And then the way you've just. You, you just dove into the life of the church of 1122. And you just, like we tell everybody else here, you've got your own Mac carriers, you got your own Foxhole sisters. You're about to go to dinner with them right now. I thought this was cool. For all the saturated speakers, we do dinner in my office. But her disciple group is waiting on her for dinner right now. And you have just immersed yourself into the life of the church. And as a part of this body. You have just responded with such humility and grace when I've said, hey, can you help us do these things? And it is. I mean, I always, I've known who you are for a long time, but to actually know you, the Lisa I know sitting across in the chair is even better than the one on the sleeve of the book and the stage.
- [40:04]
D
Thank you, Joby.
- [40:05]
E
And so it's an honor just to know. And you'll be back a lot.
- [40:10]
D
Thank you.
- [40:11]
E
Because when you. I've told a couple of good guys this. You know how when somebody's really good to your kids, they're like your favorite people. And so what you have done for our people here, this church that I get to shepherd just makes you one of my favorite.
- [40:26]
D
Thank you.
- [40:27]
E
Because of what you do for our folks.
- [40:29]
D
You're my favorite too. There you have it.
- [40:32]
E
Sweet. Well, let me pray for us. Our good and gracious heavenly father. Lord, I feel like I'm sitting next to a real live example of if the tomb is empty, anything is possible. And Lord, I thank you so much that our circumstances do not define your love for us, but the cross does. And we as post resurrection believers get to see whatever situation we're in through the lens of the empty tomb. God, I thank you and I praise you for the life and the worldwide ministry of this regular girl with a worn out Bible. God, I thank you for her vulnerability, her conviction. God, thank you so much for planting so much of your word in her heart. And God, we know so many people know you better because you came up with the idea of Lisa Turker. We give you all the honor and glory. We pray.
- [41:28]
C
Jesus, thank you for listening to the podcast the End.
- [41:32]
E
You nailed it.
- [41:39]
A
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