Deepen with Pastor Joby Martin

Episode: Saturated x Deepen with Lysa TerKeurst

Date: September 14, 2025
Guests: Lysa TerKeurst (Proverbs 31 Ministries), Pastor Joby Martin, others

Main Theme & Purpose

This special episode features a conversation between Pastor Joby Martin and bestselling author/Bible teacher Lysa TerKeurst, recorded during the “Saturated” event at The Church of Eleven22. The episode takes a raw, vulnerable, and deeply scriptural look at suffering, divorce, faithfulness, and what it means to walk with God through a future you never wanted. Through personal stories (Lysa’s especially), discussion of biblical reconciliation, and practical theology, the hosts seek to encourage anyone struggling with hope, trust, and legacy in the midst of life’s most painful chapters.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The “Weight” of Speaking from Woundedness

• Lysa’s Reflections: Speaking at her home church (with her pastor on the front row) carried heavy emotional and spiritual weight, especially given her recent personal journey with divorce and suffering (00:28).
  • Quote: “There's a weight to it and I'm very grateful.” – Lysa (00:56)
• Joby’s Perspective: Pastoring is different when you know your people’s stories intimately. He shares about pastoring a congregant through an abusive marriage and emphasizing the need for a clear conscience and obedience to God’s word (01:37).

2. Divorce & Biblical Grounds: Moving from Stigma to Truth

• Theological Deep-Dive: Lysa discusses her deep study of Scripture surrounding divorce, including learning from Dr. Joel Mudamale for her upcoming book Surviving an Unwanted Divorce (04:34).
• Biblical Nuance: They clarify commonly weaponized passages (e.g., Malachi 2). Lysa points out the actual intent in the Hebrew is not “God hates divorce,” but rather that God laments the violence/abandonment against those who should be protected (08:13).
  • Quote: “When a man hates and divorces his wife, he does violence against the one he should protect.” – Lysa (08:20)
• Grace Over Legalism: Both warn against using scripture as a weapon, instead advocating for wise care for wounded people.

3. Difficult vs. Destructive Marriages

• Key Distinction: Drawing from Leslie Vernick’s work, Lysa notes, “there’s a big difference between a difficult marriage and a destructive marriage. A difficult marriage is one we want to fight for” (06:50).
• Pastoral Care: Both leaders stress the importance of equipping the church to discern these differences and not prescribe a single solution to complex, painful realities.

4. Story of Joseph: Suffering, Sovereignty, and Legacy

• Biblical Metanarrative: The story of Joseph is unpacked as a type of reconciliation, suffering, and divine orchestration. The tension between “rescue” and “reconciliation” is discussed, especially for those unsure whether to stay or leave a deeply broken marriage (05:58–06:50).
• God’s Presence in the Unexpected: Lysa shares, “Sometimes we get so afraid... fear has been a huge part of my journey... We have to be transformed by the renewing of our mind” (13:26).
  • Quote: “God is good. God is good to me, and God is good at being God.” – Lysa (15:51)
• Practical Spiritual Tools: The four components of fear (alert, memory, perception, response) and how perception—“the story we tell ourselves”—shapes our spiritual and emotional resilience (13:26–15:50).

5. The Importance of Biblical Literacy & Spiritual Weapons

• Challenge to Men: Hosts lament biblical illiteracy, particularly among men, and the need to “sharpen the sword” (i.e., develop spiritual competency) to withstand attacks and serve others (16:56).
  • Quote: "It's not just that you have bad doctrine or you believe some wrong things. It's that you have no weapons to fight back with." – Host (16:59)
• Call to Faithful Obedience: Lysa gives a sobering warning against the pull of infidelity and “trading” your legacy for fleeting pleasure (18:59), stressing, “It’s not worth the trade. Don’t break your wife’s heart. Just don’t do it.”

6. Legacy, Family, and When the Worst Happens

• Joby’s Reflection: The greatest accomplishment isn’t ministry fruitfulness but seeing one’s children and family walking in truth (21:18–22:06; 3 John 4).
  • Quote: "I have no greater joy than this than to hear my children are walking in the truth." – Joby (20:18)
• Hope for the Broken: Lysa encourages single moms and anyone with an unwanted, broken future—God still writes stories of legacy and redemption (22:06).

7. Responding to Unthinkable Loss (Charlie Kirk’s Death)

• Parallel Pain: Discussion of Erica Kirk losing her husband Charlie Kirk, and how to process a future you did not want. Both Lysa and Erica hold to the hope that “this is a comma, not a period” (24:45).
  • Quote: "What you meant for evil, God meant for good. The pain is not pointless." – Lysa (24:44)

8. Divine Timing & Obedience in the Unknown

• Joseph’s Sons: Lysa expounds on Joseph naming his sons “Manasseh” and “Ephraim”—forgetfulness and fruitfulness in the land of suffering. She urges, “not only do I need to leave behind what could potentially hold me back, but right here in the middle of this land of my suffering, I will choose to be fruitful” (28:44–30:55).
• God’s Timing: “When God's time, it's quick time. And we know it's the right time. God truly does love us too much to answer our prayers at any other time than the right time and any other way than the right way” – Lysa (37:24).

9. Redemptive Obedience and the Value of Hidden Impact

• The One More: Lysa tells a story of sacrificing her Bible decades ago (more “obedience”) and only seeing the fruit 24 years later, underscoring how every act of faithfulness may echo far beyond our view (35:23–37:06).
• Encouragement: Even if you never know the outcome, obedience matters, and God is working “behind the scenes” for His purposes.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Weaponizing Scripture:
  “We do not use the scriptures to further our agenda, but rather...so that we don't weaponize verses.” – Lysa (09:24)

• On Suffering and Theology:
  “You’ll never learn something like when you have to teach it. And...God was preparing you to know the Bible, to walk through this.” – Joby (09:34)

• On Hope Beyond Bitterness:
  “That’s not a period. That’s a comma.” – Lysa (24:45, recalling Erica Kirk)

• On Fruitfulness in Suffering:
  "God has made me fruitful in the land of my suffering." – Lysa, reflecting Joseph’s story (30:55)

• On Grace for Single Parents:
  “Where the ideal is unrealized, grace abounds. And God gives you this family called a church.” – Joby (32:30)

• On Obedience and Legacy:
  “Your job is to be obedient to God, and God will absolutely help you continue to build a legacy.” – Lysa (23:26)

• On Vulnerability and Ministry:
  “You’ve just responded with such humility and grace when I’ve said, ‘Hey, can you help us do these things?’” – Joby speaking to Lysa (39:19)

Major Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:28–01:02 – Lysa on the weight of speaking at her church after suffering.
• 04:34–05:48 – Lysa on her theological study and forthcoming book on divorce.
• 08:13–09:34 – Deep dive into Malachi 2: God’s heart toward divorce and correct interpretation.
• 13:26–15:50 – Four components of fear; biblical reframing of suffering.
• 16:56–18:59 – Biblical illiteracy, spiritual warfare, challenge to men on marital faithfulness.
• 20:05–22:06 – True legacy: children walking in truth outweighs all ministry success.
• 22:06–23:26 – Lysa’s encouragement to single and struggling moms.
• 24:45 – “It’s a comma, not a period.” Erica Kirk’s example.
• 28:44–30:55 – Joseph’s legacy, forgetfulness and fruitfulness.
• 35:23–37:06 – The “one more” story: faithfulness, hidden impact, God’s surprising timing.

Tone and Takeaways

The conversation is candid, pastoral, and rooted deeply in both lived experience and scripture. The focus is on the goodness and wisdom of God in seasons of suffering, the importance of obedience and legacy, and the transformative power of grace—especially where the ideal has been shattered.

Listeners are left with both practical tools (for biblical discernment, reframing fear, and building legacy in brokenness) and profound hope: God is always working, often where we cannot see. As Joby summarizes in prayer, “If the tomb is empty, anything is possible.” (40:31)

Recommended For:
Anyone wrestling with hope in heartbreak, questions about divorce and suffering, or trying to discern next steps in faithfulness. Particularly helpful for men and women in leadership, single parents, or those serving others in pain.